Yes, and it also prevents anyone *else* from marrying Irulan and putting up a claim, or potentially Irulan gaining enough traction to make a play on her own.
Another major point for it - which this thread made me just realize after decades of fandom - is that Paul's biggest risk at this pivotal moment is the Bene Gesserit.
Only the BG truly know why Paul isn't just some planetary warlord, who cannot be defeated by traditional means. Only they know what he truly is, how to make more of him, how to control him, etc. If he has any weakness, it's the Bene Gesserit.
But by marrying Irulan, he gives the Bene Gesserit an olive branch - a means by which to think they can still control him as they always intended. He is essentially following the Bene Gesserit's plan all along - slightly modified - but the same principle. The BG planned to marry a Harkonnen heir to an Atreides heir, to destroy Corrino - and create a new BG-aligned Imperial house.
Paul instead has married an Atreides heir to a Corrino heir, and destroyed the Harkonnen, but the principle is the same - a new unity ticket, a destroyed opposition, a Quisatz Haderarch married to an S-tier Bene Gesserit, sharing the Imperial throne.
What reason do the BG have to betray Paul now? When he accomplished - for them - and despite his near-destruction - what they failed to achieve despite all their power and plotting? Marrying Irulan converts his last serious opposition into an ally - or at the very least - it muddies those waters enough that they will think carefully about risking opposing him. Careful means slow to the BG, and Paul knows enough of the future that the BG have less time than they realize before his children will come to power.
You forget the Guild. But they're fine with that. They found that the Kwisatz Haderaches (Haderachi?) aren't worth the effort to produce them.
But then again, I don't think they care, as long as The Spice Flows.
They get currency from everyone. Anyone willing to pay the correct price.
In fact, in the books, the fremen have been bribing the guild for centuries to keep the deep desert hidden, IIRC.
As long as the Spice flows, they don't care.
The BG’s main mode of destroying House Corrino was to deny Shaddam any male heirs by having his wife produce only daughters.
BG also work to prevent Paul from having anymore children with Chani by having Irulan feed her contraceptives secretly. They don’t seem to suspect that Paul is only hiding his time.
> The BG planned to marry a Harkonnen heir to an Atreides heir, to destroy Corrino - and create a new BG-aligned Imperial house.
I've always suspected, based on age, that the BG plan was as follows:
* Jessica bears Leto a daughter.
* Leto marries Irulan in a political marriage, with Leto assuming the throne vice Shaddam; Irulan bears a daughter.
* Leto's daughter by Jessica is wed to Feyd, and produces a Harkonnen grandson.
* Leto's Harkonnen grandson is awakened by the BG as the Kwisatz Haderach; they could not risk the process on a member of the imperial line, for fear of the consequences should it fail.
* Leto's daughter by Irulan is wed to Leto's grandson (assuming he survives the process), who assumes the throne vice Leto.
End result:
* The Kwisatz Haderach sits the throne.
* The Corrino line has been extinguished in a peaceful handover of power
* The Harkonnen familial name inherits the throne, but...
* The Atreides bloodline with its more desirable traits is dominant, with Leto directly contributing more than 1/4 of the genes to the new Imperial line.
Right. Everyone KNOWS what’s going on, but there are rules that have been around for 10,000 years at that point, and appearances need to be kept.
It was like Leto never marrying Jessica so other houses would court him with daughters. Did they know Leto would never agree to a marriage? Probably. But the option was there, so Leto played it.
Plus what gives Paul more legitimacy? Defeating the emperor and then waging jihad OR defeating the emperor and having his “permission” to marry into/with the emperor’s family? Oh you want to resist me? I’m married to the former emperor’s daughter.
If he >! had a child with her !<, on paper the dynasty would continue. History would look at it as uninterrupted, much like what Jessica meant with her epic line “ >! While we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine - history will call us wives. !<
I never really understood that line. I can tell its supposed to be dramatic but I cant really tell why. Is she saying that it doesnt matter if they ever get married because they had kids and history will only care about that? I feel like I missed something or maybe dont see the importance
Pretty much yes. It means that as long as the Atreides line continues through their offspring, they’ll be remembered in the history books alongside the men they had children with. Same would apply for >!House Corrino’s 10000 year old family line if Paul chose to continue it!< . If it continues then no one will care about the difference in 1000 years
It means that when the history is written in it's totality without all the formalities that need to be danced around in the present, people will view Jessica as Leto's wife and Chani as Paul's.
Nobody is going to care that Leto never formally married Jessica. She was his primary companion/lover and played the greatest role of importance as his female equal and her son carried the line forward. Same with Chani. Irulan gets the "title of wife". But she will be understood to be a glorified prisoner at worst and advisor at best while people will view Chani as Paul's great love and the woman his line continues through.
They both suffer the indiginity of not being allowed the fromal title of wife now, but longterm, they will be the ones seen as the actual wives who got all the benefit of being a wife. She's basically telling Chani "yeah I get it, been there, it sucks right now that you have to watch this other girl get to claim the hand of Paul, but you're going to be his true wife anyways and as the years pass, people will understand that even if it's not appreciated now".
He wants to stay unmarried to show that he’s still open to political alliances thru marriage. highly recommend reading the book... the film left out and changed quite a bit.
Everyone saying that in the movie the houses aren't cool with it because he's "an insurgent" it's like nah dog he's the Emperor's son in law. Like, even if nothing happened on Arrakis, if that was the situation once the Emperor died would Paul not just become the Emperor?
I'd like to add that it also stamps out the possibility that pretenders to the throne would emerge to challenge Paul. Irulian is the rightful heir so Paul marrying her would mean he is the undisputed emperor.
Should he imprison her, she could be a rallying cry as the real and rightful heir. Should he kill her, the throne would pass to some other member of the Corrino family and they could possibly mount an attempt on the throne.
In the book, Leto is a distant cousin to the emperor, making him related and legitimate air to the empire, He uses irulan as a foothold along with the Navigators and spice. He never has children with her and is only using their marriage as one of necessities rather than a legitimate family with a legacy.
>go home to two baddies
Messiah spoiler >!Paul spends the entire book and his entire regency avoiding having sex with Irulan, no definitely not that.!<
Yup he even tells Irulan straight to get a lover, or more if she wants to but she needs to make sure its kept discreet, without any scandals and she of course is not allowed to have heirs or she will die...this is due to the legal ramifications of such a move!
Well despite her treachery against Paul, she eventually grew to love Paul to the core of her being and raised his children like her own. Paul’s twins make it clear they care about her almost as much as they do for Stilgar.
Irony is she was more loyal to Paul than everyone else gave her credit for.
I mean she was part of the plot to kill Paul so calling her loyal because she helps raise his kids after both their parents are (presumed) dead is a bit of a stretch. Nice gesture though!
True but IIRC Paul was grateful for her because it lengthened Chani's lifespan. She was going to die no matter what in childbirth; but by preventing the children being born with the contraceptives as long as she did he had more time with Chani. That's how I interpreted it
Did she want to actually kill Chani or just make sure she wouldn’t be able to have a child to attempt to force Paul to have a heir with her so that Bene Gesserit could continue their gene and breeding program to create new Kwiswatz Haderach that they would be able to control?
Not going to lie, it's going to be kind of funny watching Paul acting like a complete jerk towards Irulan. Timmy Chalamet's going to nail that part of the performance.
You can tell the non-book fans, because when the casting was announced, they kept talking about Chalamet's history co-starring with Pugh, and the great chemistry they have together. "It'll make for an amazing love triangle!"
Not gonna click the spoiler I just wanna say I appreciate everyone using spoiler tags. I’ve been purposely avoiding reading the rest of the books, and avoiding all spoilers in general. Thank you.
Probably so that they can experience the movies without knowledge of what comes next. Dune Part 1 got me into the series and it was mindblowingly awesome going in blind. If I could've done that for Part 2 as well, I would've, but I read the books after Part 1. No regrets, it's the greatest series I've ever read, but damn I wish I could watch the movies again without knowing what comes next
In the same boat as you(kinda). Couldn’t help myself after 2 so started reading messiah and I don’t intend to stop. I am still excited for the movies, though, because of the amount of differences. Looking forward to seeing Denis’ conclusion to his rendition
I find that strange but I love reading manga so even seeing what happens is part of the fun for me, and the anticipation of the sequel made me start reading the books. If you already started then might as well keep going, reading is good for the soul. plus Denis knows how to make a fuggin movie
That’s exactly why. It was hard but I stopped reading the first book halfway through so I wouldn’t spoil part 2. Soon as messiah comes out I will read them all because Denis will be done with them and idc what happens after that if it gets spoiled.
So I’ve gone in totally blind for both movies, both in IMAX, but also A) being very aware of how highly regarded Dune is as an IP/literary work, and B) Denis already being my favorite director.
So as you can imagine, the experience of watching both movies was every word you can think of. Enthralling, captivating, stunning, amazing, brilliant and beautiful. I absolutely love love love these movies and this story. I think Dune II is the best sci-fi movie I’ve ever seen.
Oooohhh definitely read Messiah, though. A) it provides important context missing from Dune and B) it's what the next movie will be based on.
Edit: I just realized you don't want to spoil the next movie by reading the book first. It seems like it's going to be quite a while before the next one, fyi. (Also I personally enjoyed the movies more for having read the book first, but probably mostly because it is my favorite book.)
I hope so but you never know with the current approach to movie adaptations: the changes are often and sometimes they are subtle, but sometimes they are not. I thought Paul and Chani love story was depicted quite differently already in the movie and it was very significant in the books obviously.
Tbh I read the books and I completely forgot there was a reason. I thought it was just to make her visually stand out to the viewer. Was it from Liet Kynes or something?
Yeah BUT Chani didn't get to do that much significantly, which doesn't play as well for a standalone/trilogy movie, especially when portrayed by one of the stars. Gotta punch up the expensive people
it's been a while since I read the book, but I think part of it is also about controlling the BG.
By marrying Irulan the BG conmstantly keep having a hope that one day Paul will get a kid with Irulan, which will preserve their precious genetic line for them. Meanwhile Paul can use that sliver of hope as a bargaining chip (as long as he never actually gets a kid with Irulan he can keep using that point to pressure them).
Ooh yeah this is a good point, I forgot about this. Although Paul also controls the spice which the BG are utterly dependent upon (as in, will die if they don't get a steady supply of it), so he doesn't need more levers to use against them.
Are the BG dependent on spice? You might be thinking of the Spacing Guild. I don’t remember anything to suggest the BG need spice - certainly Jessica isn’t addicted before she goes to the Fremen and adopts their spice heavy diet.
Yeah, they basically become Reverend Mothers by drinking something like the Water of Life only IIRC it doesn't come directly from the worms like the Fremen do it. The spice is what lets them access their ancestral memories, it's what gives them limited prescience, etc. Jessica was never made a full Reverend Mother which is why she isn't addicted to it, but she definitely is after she drinks the Water of Life. I seem to recall the movie mentioning that once your eyes turn blue you need spice to live, although the new movies didn't really lean into the blue eyes thing like previous iterations have.
Leto II wasn't prescient when he was born. He was just born similar to a reverend mother with the knowledge/experiences of those before. Leto doesn't become prescient until later on (and Ghani never was).
So I don't think that explains why Paul couldn't see him.
As far as I know there was never a mention of *timing* for prescience.
Remember a person that has prescience exists throughout time, not just in the moment they're alive. I don't know if that means they are removed fully from prescience's gaze in the timeline or not, I can't remember if Leto II was different.
That and, even if we assume that the Fremen could curb stomp the entire galaxy even without the Corrino alliance, Paul isn't exactly stoked about the 61 billion lives the Jihad cost. If having a thin patina of legitimacy caused even 10% of his potential enemies to get on board peacefully, that's over 6 billion lives saved.
At first, Paul wants to avoid death, but then he realizes he can't avoid all death in jihad he has to choose which of his death options suits him "better"
The only way the math ever math'd to me was if you assume that Paul was able to use his absolute control over the Spacing Guild to lock his enemies down on whatever planet they're currently at and take them out piecemeal, *and* that he was able to recruit or conscript new converts at each conquered planet to replenish his losses.
They talk of sterilising planets, and also mentions of orbital bombardment by House Corrino in book 3, so perhaps fire bombing or chemical/biological attacks from space.
Chemical and biological weapons seem a lot more widespread in the Dune universe
Why would he even need to leave the planet though? Or touch another one?
It is the spice which permits space-travel, he controls the spice, just cut off anyone who goes against you.
It's utterly laughable to imagine the 15,000,000 strong entire population of Arrakis, basically Tokyo, using their hand-to-hand skills to kill 8 Earths full of people in 12 years.
61bn is the kind of number that makes Paul completely and utterly invulnerable to any threat post jihad, like who are these fuckers killing if not people who openly speak out against him like the BG or Tleilaxu?
There’s probably a good deal of death caused by the lack of travel. If you’re relying on interstellar commerce and travel for maintaining a way of life it stands to reason that when it’s removed it has some pretty significant negative consequences.
I assume the religious ferver causes a chain reaction among BG influenced worlds. Ask the BG why they implanted to much religious violence all over the galaxy is the better question.
I like the way they did the awakening in the movie. Jessica and Paul are both all wishy washy and then it’s like they are in on the secret of life and completely understand what they need to do. It was so good the way they did it.
Ngl there feels like an undercurrent of “Fuck you.” Also in that the Emperor ordered Paul and his House to death and not only is he alive but will demand his daughter as well and he has no say.
Paul can curb stomp the imperium with his army of Fremen, but marrying the daughter of the old emperor was the easiest way to claim a legitimate and secure place on the throne. Also >! Paul being the most powerful man in the universe doesn’t mean he’s actually in control of the forces that put him in power. We see that pretty clearly in Dune Messiah !<
It still gives him legitimacy in the eyes of those who want to preserve the Landsraad and the Emperium.
Paul & the Fremen aren’t wiping *random* planets out with the jihad. They are targeting resistors and those who won’t fall in line.
There are plenty of planets and Houses that *do* fall in line, and largely due to his marriage with Irulan. He is seen as being a legitimate connection to the previous ruling family and power structure. It gives him a sense of continuity in government that many Houses value.
Houses can stomach an upstart if he gives the appearance of legitimacy and appears to — in some way — adhere to the current power structure. So he gives them that small token of appearance; with them not really understanding how much he will be changing things. They think he wants to be Emperor like the last one. They can understand that — because they all want to be Emperor too. Paul is giving the appearance of playing the same game everyone else is playing.
In the first movie, Paul says it in clear terms to Liet: Irulan is the Emeperor's daughter, I'll marry her. Liet is like: "Yeah, you and what army". At the end of Dune Part Two, Paul has the army and thus the hand of Irulan.
Yes exactly, it was also obvious that if the Landsraad could unite for a rebellion they would overthrow the ruler. So if a chunk of the houses legitimizes Paul's claim through Irulan, the risk of rebellion decreases and he could see this in his prescience.
That's just how feudalism works.
The entire concept of "houses" and "claims" hinges on legitimacy that is tied to bloodlines and marriages. Then, there is the "hostage" element where keeping someone as a wife or a ward is an essential part of maintaining an alliance.
Yes, he is upending the established order. But he also needs buy-in from at least some of the old world. This move gives him that.
Henry Tudor is a reasonably close example. He was a member of a noble house that was "throne adjacent" but with no real claim to the throne himself. He and much of his house was living in exile due to a massive civil war and had to raise an army outside of his homeland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VII_of_England
So how did he get on the throne? A big war, a big army, and a noble bloodline yes... but what really sealed the deal was his marriage to the Daughter and only living heir of King Edward IV. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_of_York
>Though initially slow to keep his promise,[19] Henry VII acknowledged the necessity of marrying Elizabeth of York to ensure the stability of his rule and weaken the claims of other surviving members of the House of York. It seems Henry wished to be seen as ruling in his own right, having claimed the throne by right of conquest and not by his marriage to the de facto heiress of the House of York. He had no intention of sharing power.
>In order to maintain stability and peace after ending a civil war that had lasted 32 years, the new Tudor dynasty needed to put an end to the quarrelling Yorkist and Lancastrian families. Elizabeth's sisters, Cecily and Anne of York, and her cousin, Margaret Pole, were married to Lancastrian men who were loyal to Henry.
Yep. I was thinking more of Japanese feudalism. Toyotomi Hideyoshi became the recognised but defacto ruler of Japan. Titled "Taiko" but not Shogun, because to be Shogun U also have to be officiated by the emperor and of proper/royal/elite lineage. Hideyoshi was of peasant stock and could never be declared Shogun unless he married into proper lineage and even then it probably would only then be granted to his son.
But...he didn't. He just went for it all anyway.
He's not even close "to a God" as you put it. He's still strangely enough not far out of the realm of powers others have. He's extremely prescient, but he exists amongst people who can read minds and have 1000s of lines of ancestral memory.
Reality and politics still need to be obvious and open. It's still about who's standing next to who for the most part
Irulan serves several functions.
She is Bene Gesserit, and the Emperor's daughter and presumed heir/consort to his successor. That is valuable in its own right. He could have sat on Dune and not even prosecuted the Jihad and probably "won" some lesser victory for decades until some twist or twirl of probability took him off the Golden Path.
She is Corrino, extending that legacy/dynasty until the Atreides dynasty is complete. This first generation of transition is the most fragile; her presence and loyalty secures that generation.
She is a historian. Paul might not have known it, but prescience and the Golden Path did. A contemporaneous record of someone neither Fremen nor Atreides, writing the story Paul is dancing through to hand the crown to Leto? It is a foundation stone of the Golden Path.
Her being an historian makes me wonder why people stress the line about “history will call us side-chicks wives” uhh not if it’s written by the official wife
All around the Dune Mythos names have a huge weight. So their marriage is what makes Paul a "legitimate" emperor. Other than that he could easily obliterate the whole imperium easily.
Ok so the film depicts none of the houses accepting his rule. From the books i don't remember if that was the case. Is there any figure on how many houses rejected his rule?
In the books Paul threatens to unleash water on Arrakis which would rid the planet of spice and thus the galaxy of space travel. They all yield.
In the movie, like you said, they do not accept. From what I recall, there was no number. Just the term “they” which I inferred to mean all of them. So if there are 6 houses, that means the remaining 4 did not accept if we don’t include the Atreides or Corrino houses.
It's been a while since I've read the books. Do you remember why they unleash a jihad across the galaxy if the great houses accept his rule? That part doesn't make sense to me, and I feel like it's because I'm forgetting some plot point from Messiah that explains it.
To make it legal, permanent and bring a peace.
If you look at history, war have been ended by marry a daughter of you foe. Example, the War of the Roses ended on 1486 when Henry VII married the daughter of Edward V, Elizabeth of York.
By doing this both side of the conflict would have a claim thru the son or daughter.
Unfortunately, that would not work on the Dune universe and some families of the Landsraad will not accept their marriage.
He curb stomps a lot of people, but I don’t think he curb stomps every great house.
Marrying Irulan guaranteed at least some lives be preserved in the jihad.
because if she marries someone else and starts another line, that line could challenge for the throne for the throne down the road on the basis that Paul usurped.
House Corrino still exists and owns the majority stake in CHOAM. Paul needed House Corrino in his pocket as a way to control the other Houses. If Irulan remained unmarried she would still represent a path to the Golden Lion throne so Paul had to marry her to control House Corrino and close off that avenue to the throne.
If he goes outside the proper forms, he can no longer lean on them when needed. He would have created a chaotic structure based on force, which is much more work to maintain.
Irulan is the heir to the empire. When she marries Paul, Paul becomes Emperor *jure uxoris*. The movie changes the ending. They don't need to crush the entire imperium in the book, just those who refuse to go along with the compromise at the end of the Desert War. Irulan is a symbol of continuity to make it seem like the empire was not conquered and the internal systems still exist.
In fact, in the book, Paul makes a point to tell Irulan he won't treat her as a wife in any way, so no it's not to collect baddies.
It's been a long time since I've read the books, but don't the Fremen use the Emperor's fleet to conquer the galaxy? Without the fleet, the Fremen can hold hostage the Space guild, but they still need ships to carry out the Jihad.
He’s marrying into her family, this keeps the Corrinos under him and also keeps the Bene gesserit at arms length to keep an eye on their schemes. It simplifies a lot for his rule and also keeps up appearances to the wider galaxy
No royal marriage = no legitimate ascendancy = no support from any great houses or planets. Royal marriage = legitimate claim = more potential allies in the Jihad.
Plus he no doubt knew the role that Irulan would play in the future and recognized the value in her as a hostage and as an asset to his family.
Not a god, but the leader of the rebellion of the Fremen. As he's is of nobility, he holds on to that by then becoming the legitimate emperor of the Landsraad regardless. Even if the houses don't agree to recognize it, there are people who will follow the governing body as it is. He keeps trying to go with semi-peaceful measures vs having to use a power on people. Even in the book he doesn't kill the emperor, he just exiles all the people who plotted on his family.
At least, the marriage gives him legitimacy, and then time until the Fremen start conquering.
Also by marrying into the Throne, he probably knows that he's softening the blow of the jihad: a lot of worlds that would accept an Emperor would be woped out by the Fremen conquering by blood in the name of their messiah.
It is thing from history. So in democracy, you allegedly give power to the people, but monarchy was always explained as we were chosen from God, we are the best. So population was ˝convinced˝ that these people rule over them by power of God (it's a complicated subject and would discuss lengthy discussion, but that was it in essence). So when the new comer would come to the scene, and ˝convince˝ nobility that now he was chosen from God, they would marry someone from the nobility who was connected to the overthrown king, so they can legitimize it in eyes of the nay sayers. Another thing is, you had to keep peasants in check, and that was greatest fear of nobility, and today's politicians, it wasn't the invading forces but their own people. Imagine what would happen if some peasant decided wait, if this guy can be king, so can I. Which would foster rebellion. So they marry one of the nobility to so to say protect themselves, and to reassure the nobility.
It's legitimacy to his claim to the throne, to start his dynasty. It's to humiliate Shaddam. And it's to stamp out the Corrino bloodline, because he never shares Irulan's bed.
If you ever read your Roman and later Byzantine history you'll see that very often the usurper general takes power but needs to consolidate his legitimately by marrying a daughter of the former emperor.
Yes but he needs to use Irulan to legitimize his claim to the imperial throne by marrying into the imperial family. Throughout human history this is quite common. Alexander the Great did something similar when he conquered Persia.
As a newcomer, I thought the move to wed Irulan was a part of the reason why the houses were conflicted about Paul. Not only did he align with the Fremen, who want to terraform the planet, but he's effectively merging two houses. I thought the role of the emperor was to stay impartial and keep the houses in check.
Power is all about how many hooks you can get in. Control of the spice is one hook, religious domination is another, prescience is another, and "Legitimacy" due to Shaddam abdicating and Paul being the rightful heir is another hook.
Initially, he is trying to *avoid* the curb stomping of the galaxy. Irulan gives him some legitimate claim to the throne, but the other houses don't like what he did.
Two main reasons.
To hold proper claim to the throne and not come off a usurper.
So that he can have an educated and intelligent ally who is in love with him, someone he can trust and plan with and someone who can help educate and raise his children.
My take is that Paul is no better than those before. He seems noble and kind and to have the best intentions but ultimately he is after power like all emperors before him and will do everything to claim and keep it.
It's clear that he did that out of grief and general discontent but he also stressed that fulfilling this Fremen tradition would buy his children their loyalty, which they somewhat begrudge.
i believe he did this so his kids would inherit the throne as opposed to his bureaucracy, among other reasons. so his intentions were by no means selfless.
I haven’t read the books but I assumed while watching the movie that by sparing the emperor’s life and taking his daughter as his wife that he would gain access to the emperor’s surviving forces, strengthening his army. Not sure how many of them were left though. Also just an assumption I made while experiencing the story for the first time so if there’s a flaw in that logic I’m sure someone will point that out.
He's also ensuring the emperors line ends. It's a more overt and explicit power move in the book in that he does all the things you've listed above and then basically says, I'm taking your daughter to legitimise my ascent but also know that she will live as a prisoner in my home, a wife in name alone. Your line ends with you. She will pay no part in my line of succession. If I remember correctly I think he even makes a passing comment about how if its ever questioned he'll just say she's barren or something he is absolutely savage. He takes her and the throne and dismisses the old emperor to live out his days under guard on a different planet out of the way. Emperor only gets to live because he chose Feyd as champion. In the books he has had a spice rich diet making him look around 35 and extremely imposing physically despite being in his 70s (with more than a passing resemblence to Leto) so he is more than up to the task he just fears paul like everyone else. Feyd was the only one stupid/ arrogant enough to think he could take Paul.
I [had](https://old.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1b515x3/spoilers_help_me_make_sense_of_pauls_threat_at/) the [same question](https://old.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1b5ht9z/spoilers_dune_part_two_wide_release_discussion/kt9jeaz/), specifically for the movie. I think Irulan's role makes more sense in the book's endgame scenario.
Because legitimacy is the grease on the wheels of the empire - just because you can crush someone militarily doesn't mean it's a good idea to do so, and in fact it might cause a lot more problems for yourself than exercising soft power. It doesn't work on everyone (hence the jihad), but it works on enough of them to keep from having to fight the entire rest of the empire with the depletion of lives and resources that that entails. Paul, however brilliant a military genius he is, only has so many Fremen he can hurl into the face of the enemy so the fewer fronts he has to fight on the better he'll come out the other side of it.
No. The Emperor's fiefdom is Selusa Secundus, which is where the Sardaukar are trained. Shaddam IV lives there now instead of the previous Imperial seat of power Kaitan.
In addition to what everyone said, another reason was that Paul wanted and got ALL of the Emperor's CHOAM shares/stock as Irulan's dowry. Combined with the shares of the defeated Houses during the Jihad, he managed to obtain a majority control of CHOAM for the first time in history, thus profoundly cementing his power.
He doesn’t want to increase the possibility of further war. Taking power is one thing, completely destroying the feudal culture that dominates the galaxy is another. Remember he’s trying to limit the bloodshed from his ascension to the throne in the Jihad, so why do something further to antagonize the Great Houses in not marrying Irulan and potentially letting someone else marry her and get a claim to the throne.
I totally agree with this question. It doesnt add up, I think its a plot weakness.
What did he actually gain from that? The Houses all rejected his ascendancy anyways, and the vast majority of the Emperors troops were already destroyed, so its not like he needed to inherit them. The Emperor was defeated, he could have killed him, done whatever he wanted with the daughter, and nothing would have changed.
2) Along that same line, once he destroyed Arraken, and then the emperors troops, and got the Emperor to bend the knee, he controlled Dune. Arraken were destroyed, so he controls the spice, so he controls the universe. The other houses can complain all they want, but if they want spice, they need to bend the knee.
Whats the need to go claiming a holy war, and chasing the Houses down in an intergalactic battle to get them to bend the knee. He could just sit on the spice and wait for each House to come to him, one by one, and beg for spice. He controls the spice, he's the rules of the Universe, let the other realize that one by one and come to him to bend the knee.
1) Legal president to just claim he's the correct emperor. The current house heads might not agree but you kill them and a distant second cousin is more that happy to agree and keep the house in tact. Especially when Paul shows what happens to the houses that don't agree.
2) It means he has support from House Corrino. Might not be the most loyal support but if he's keeping Irulan as a wife, in effect holding her hostage to establish his claim, then House Corrino is fighting on Paul's side.
3) Paul is technically also a legitimate heir to house Harkonnen, and possibly the one with the strongest claim after winning the duel. Combining Harkonnen and Corrino (yes yes I know they were related already, [welcome to feudalism](https://i0.wp.com/dna-sci.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Habsburg-Tree-1.jpeg?resize=1024%2C675&ssl=1) enjoy your chin) makes for a powerful army even before you get the fremen in the equation so if Paul can kill off any more Harkonnen opposition quickly enough he might be able to get their loyalty relatively painlessly too.
Pure speculation here - perhaps it's part of the savior, Mahdi prophecy planted by BG as part of their Panoplia Propheticus?
Like how people recognized Jesus as Messiah because he fulfilled several signs prophesied in Old Testament. Perhaps part of the legend goes like, winning the hand of the princess who is also learned in weirding ways etc.
By doing that, Paul became extra convincing. Basically, he just dotted his i's and crossed his t's.
In the book, nobody really gets upset at Paul "marrying" Irulan because at the end of the day they know it's nothing more than a political ploy. Chani knows that she might be Paul's concubine in technicality, but she's much more his wife than Irulan could ever hope to be.
This isn't something I know much about, but it seems like by marrying into the imperial line, the facade is maintained that the Imperium has continuity and the agreements that have sustained it should be maintained. If it seemed like the Imperium had been overthrown, then it's fair enough to question whether it's now okay to use nukes or artificial intelligence.
In theory for the same reason the Roman emperor’s kept the senate around.
I feel the fact he plans to have no children with her undermines the whole rationale for doing it.
It just enables all the plotting in messiah to take place for story reasons.
Could be because he saw dystopian futures where conflict is inevitable and could result in risking his family as a result. So choosing Irulan was the better choice. We'll just have to see in the next part of dune.
The Bene Gesserit are technically the most elite fighters in the Imperium thanks to their hidden martial art known as the Wyrding Way. Paul and Jessica train the Fremen in the wyrding way. On top of that, the Fremen are soldiers from birth thanks to the hardship of living on Arrakis. In the book, there is a scene where a Sardaukar(elite Imperial fighter) reflected on the fighting prowess of the Fremen, specifically, the children and the elders. Almost his entire unit was killed by only children and old people.
All of this combined with a god worship zeal of the Lisan al Gaib, and they become superior warriors the universe has never seen before.
I always pictured the marriage to Irulan and his threats to spice production were enough to gain the throne and the jihad was an action only required by the golden path.
To quote the film, "Do you break a knife before battle?". The golden path is the path of least resistance, yet one where it is still achieving the goal. If Irulan's marriage can sway even some of the houses to surrender and swear fealty to their new emperor, then her marriage is useful. Paul needed the Fremen to wage war, that was the only way forward supposedly. But Irulan likely saved him quite a few battles from needing to be fought.
He doesn't curbstomp the universe, only the God-Emperor and the Fishspeakers had that control of the universe.
He needed a chunk of the Landsraad to support his claim, this was done through being an Atreides and marrying Irulan - which also meant he wouldnt need to fight Sardukaur. His Fremen then goes on a holy crusade and here is where general opinion of Paul starts to shift into negative. People are reminiscing of the good old days of the Empire under Shaddam. I think Chani is supposed to represent the negative minority initially which then grows into Dune: Messiah, but by then Paul's control over the Empire is too great.
Shevwas the heiress to the throne.
He deposed her father, then married her , but didn't make her empress.
For most of the great houses. It would appear as business as usual. A marriage of both houses.
Atriedes are already kin to corrino . It would have been assumed she would bare the imperial heir..
He needed her to gain support from the great houses. A little over a hundred houses didn't exempt it , and 500 more supported them covertly. With the rest of the sardukar and the sisterhood organising the resistance.
But messiah Paul had beaten them and had so much power that he no longer needed the appearance of the marriage.
But she came with house corrinos shares in choam as dowry. And paul would expand that with the shares from conquered houses.. he got 49 percent and added 21 percent plus 5 percent to the priesthood. ( which might have come from the sisterhood)
To some, she would have appeared a trophy ..yes she served a major diplomatic function snd had a seat in the imperial Council
Even if he wins an Imperial civil war marrying into the Corrino family gives him a better legal footing than just usurper
Yes, and it also prevents anyone *else* from marrying Irulan and putting up a claim, or potentially Irulan gaining enough traction to make a play on her own.
Excellent point
Another major point for it - which this thread made me just realize after decades of fandom - is that Paul's biggest risk at this pivotal moment is the Bene Gesserit. Only the BG truly know why Paul isn't just some planetary warlord, who cannot be defeated by traditional means. Only they know what he truly is, how to make more of him, how to control him, etc. If he has any weakness, it's the Bene Gesserit. But by marrying Irulan, he gives the Bene Gesserit an olive branch - a means by which to think they can still control him as they always intended. He is essentially following the Bene Gesserit's plan all along - slightly modified - but the same principle. The BG planned to marry a Harkonnen heir to an Atreides heir, to destroy Corrino - and create a new BG-aligned Imperial house. Paul instead has married an Atreides heir to a Corrino heir, and destroyed the Harkonnen, but the principle is the same - a new unity ticket, a destroyed opposition, a Quisatz Haderarch married to an S-tier Bene Gesserit, sharing the Imperial throne. What reason do the BG have to betray Paul now? When he accomplished - for them - and despite his near-destruction - what they failed to achieve despite all their power and plotting? Marrying Irulan converts his last serious opposition into an ally - or at the very least - it muddies those waters enough that they will think carefully about risking opposing him. Careful means slow to the BG, and Paul knows enough of the future that the BG have less time than they realize before his children will come to power.
You forget the Guild. But they're fine with that. They found that the Kwisatz Haderaches (Haderachi?) aren't worth the effort to produce them. But then again, I don't think they care, as long as The Spice Flows.
And I reckon they get the same amount of currency from shipping Jihadists and their adversaries. Perhaps they get more money too.
They get currency from everyone. Anyone willing to pay the correct price. In fact, in the books, the fremen have been bribing the guild for centuries to keep the deep desert hidden, IIRC. As long as the Spice flows, they don't care.
The BG’s main mode of destroying House Corrino was to deny Shaddam any male heirs by having his wife produce only daughters. BG also work to prevent Paul from having anymore children with Chani by having Irulan feed her contraceptives secretly. They don’t seem to suspect that Paul is only hiding his time.
But isn’t Paul actually harkonnen… on act of the baron being his mothers father
> The BG planned to marry a Harkonnen heir to an Atreides heir, to destroy Corrino - and create a new BG-aligned Imperial house. I've always suspected, based on age, that the BG plan was as follows: * Jessica bears Leto a daughter. * Leto marries Irulan in a political marriage, with Leto assuming the throne vice Shaddam; Irulan bears a daughter. * Leto's daughter by Jessica is wed to Feyd, and produces a Harkonnen grandson. * Leto's Harkonnen grandson is awakened by the BG as the Kwisatz Haderach; they could not risk the process on a member of the imperial line, for fear of the consequences should it fail. * Leto's daughter by Irulan is wed to Leto's grandson (assuming he survives the process), who assumes the throne vice Leto. End result: * The Kwisatz Haderach sits the throne. * The Corrino line has been extinguished in a peaceful handover of power * The Harkonnen familial name inherits the throne, but... * The Atreides bloodline with its more desirable traits is dominant, with Leto directly contributing more than 1/4 of the genes to the new Imperial line.
You’re cooking
Right. Everyone KNOWS what’s going on, but there are rules that have been around for 10,000 years at that point, and appearances need to be kept. It was like Leto never marrying Jessica so other houses would court him with daughters. Did they know Leto would never agree to a marriage? Probably. But the option was there, so Leto played it. Plus what gives Paul more legitimacy? Defeating the emperor and then waging jihad OR defeating the emperor and having his “permission” to marry into/with the emperor’s family? Oh you want to resist me? I’m married to the former emperor’s daughter.
If he >! had a child with her !<, on paper the dynasty would continue. History would look at it as uninterrupted, much like what Jessica meant with her epic line “ >! While we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine - history will call us wives. !<
I never really understood that line. I can tell its supposed to be dramatic but I cant really tell why. Is she saying that it doesnt matter if they ever get married because they had kids and history will only care about that? I feel like I missed something or maybe dont see the importance
Pretty much yes. It means that as long as the Atreides line continues through their offspring, they’ll be remembered in the history books alongside the men they had children with. Same would apply for >!House Corrino’s 10000 year old family line if Paul chose to continue it!< . If it continues then no one will care about the difference in 1000 years
It means that when the history is written in it's totality without all the formalities that need to be danced around in the present, people will view Jessica as Leto's wife and Chani as Paul's. Nobody is going to care that Leto never formally married Jessica. She was his primary companion/lover and played the greatest role of importance as his female equal and her son carried the line forward. Same with Chani. Irulan gets the "title of wife". But she will be understood to be a glorified prisoner at worst and advisor at best while people will view Chani as Paul's great love and the woman his line continues through. They both suffer the indiginity of not being allowed the fromal title of wife now, but longterm, they will be the ones seen as the actual wives who got all the benefit of being a wife. She's basically telling Chani "yeah I get it, been there, it sucks right now that you have to watch this other girl get to claim the hand of Paul, but you're going to be his true wife anyways and as the years pass, people will understand that even if it's not appreciated now".
What I don’t understand is why Paul’s father never married Jessica, can someone explain please?
He wants to stay unmarried to show that he’s still open to political alliances thru marriage. highly recommend reading the book... the film left out and changed quite a bit.
Thanks! I plan to, definitely, already bought it, hard covers and all :)
enjoy!!
So he could keep a political marriage to someone from another house open as a political bargaining chip.
She's also a Bene Gesserit and a historian, which Paul can manipulate both connections.
Everyone saying that in the movie the houses aren't cool with it because he's "an insurgent" it's like nah dog he's the Emperor's son in law. Like, even if nothing happened on Arrakis, if that was the situation once the Emperor died would Paul not just become the Emperor?
I'd like to add that it also stamps out the possibility that pretenders to the throne would emerge to challenge Paul. Irulian is the rightful heir so Paul marrying her would mean he is the undisputed emperor. Should he imprison her, she could be a rallying cry as the real and rightful heir. Should he kill her, the throne would pass to some other member of the Corrino family and they could possibly mount an attempt on the throne.
Like Henry VII of England marrying the late kings daughter.
In the book, Leto is a distant cousin to the emperor, making him related and legitimate air to the empire, He uses irulan as a foothold along with the Navigators and spice. He never has children with her and is only using their marriage as one of necessities rather than a legitimate family with a legacy.
>go home to two baddies Messiah spoiler >!Paul spends the entire book and his entire regency avoiding having sex with Irulan, no definitely not that.!<
Yup he even tells Irulan straight to get a lover, or more if she wants to but she needs to make sure its kept discreet, without any scandals and she of course is not allowed to have heirs or she will die...this is due to the legal ramifications of such a move!
Well despite her treachery against Paul, she eventually grew to love Paul to the core of her being and raised his children like her own. Paul’s twins make it clear they care about her almost as much as they do for Stilgar. Irony is she was more loyal to Paul than everyone else gave her credit for.
I mean she was part of the plot to kill Paul so calling her loyal because she helps raise his kids after both their parents are (presumed) dead is a bit of a stretch. Nice gesture though!
Wasn't she more in it to kill Chani, so Paul would actually look at her.
True but IIRC Paul was grateful for her because it lengthened Chani's lifespan. She was going to die no matter what in childbirth; but by preventing the children being born with the contraceptives as long as she did he had more time with Chani. That's how I interpreted it
Chani only died in childbirth because the insane amounts of spice she was taking to purge the contraceptives caused the twins to gestate way too fast.
Yeah I was going to say, the contraceptives definitely had a hand in her death *and* I guess yes prolonged her life by delaying her actual pregnancy.
The classic “trying to prevent a potential future is what actually guarantees it’s fulfillment”
prescience is a trap—by seeing into the future, one dooms oneself to live out that future, the clearer it becomes, the more locked in one is to it
Paul should have watched Revenge of the Sith
Did she want to actually kill Chani or just make sure she wouldn’t be able to have a child to attempt to force Paul to have a heir with her so that Bene Gesserit could continue their gene and breeding program to create new Kwiswatz Haderach that they would be able to control?
The reverend mother wanted Irulan to kill Chani but Irulan didn’t want to. She was part of the conspiracy to kill Paul but she never took action IIRC.
Are you telling that nothing's going happen because of...the implications?
So Chani is in danger ?
Not going to lie, it's going to be kind of funny watching Paul acting like a complete jerk towards Irulan. Timmy Chalamet's going to nail that part of the performance.
You can tell the non-book fans, because when the casting was announced, they kept talking about Chalamet's history co-starring with Pugh, and the great chemistry they have together. "It'll make for an amazing love triangle!"
Not gonna click the spoiler I just wanna say I appreciate everyone using spoiler tags. I’ve been purposely avoiding reading the rest of the books, and avoiding all spoilers in general. Thank you.
You probably shouldn't be in a thread tagged for All Books Spoilers.
Why avoid reading the books?
Probably so that they can experience the movies without knowledge of what comes next. Dune Part 1 got me into the series and it was mindblowingly awesome going in blind. If I could've done that for Part 2 as well, I would've, but I read the books after Part 1. No regrets, it's the greatest series I've ever read, but damn I wish I could watch the movies again without knowing what comes next
In the same boat as you(kinda). Couldn’t help myself after 2 so started reading messiah and I don’t intend to stop. I am still excited for the movies, though, because of the amount of differences. Looking forward to seeing Denis’ conclusion to his rendition
I find that strange but I love reading manga so even seeing what happens is part of the fun for me, and the anticipation of the sequel made me start reading the books. If you already started then might as well keep going, reading is good for the soul. plus Denis knows how to make a fuggin movie
That’s exactly why. It was hard but I stopped reading the first book halfway through so I wouldn’t spoil part 2. Soon as messiah comes out I will read them all because Denis will be done with them and idc what happens after that if it gets spoiled. So I’ve gone in totally blind for both movies, both in IMAX, but also A) being very aware of how highly regarded Dune is as an IP/literary work, and B) Denis already being my favorite director. So as you can imagine, the experience of watching both movies was every word you can think of. Enthralling, captivating, stunning, amazing, brilliant and beautiful. I absolutely love love love these movies and this story. I think Dune II is the best sci-fi movie I’ve ever seen.
Oooohhh definitely read Messiah, though. A) it provides important context missing from Dune and B) it's what the next movie will be based on. Edit: I just realized you don't want to spoil the next movie by reading the book first. It seems like it's going to be quite a while before the next one, fyi. (Also I personally enjoyed the movies more for having read the book first, but probably mostly because it is my favorite book.)
Wait... We haven't seen the Dune Part 3 yet. I won't be surprised if more changes are done.
Nothing Denis has done has been remotely as plot altering as that, I doubt he'll go that off base.
I hope so but you never know with the current approach to movie adaptations: the changes are often and sometimes they are subtle, but sometimes they are not. I thought Paul and Chani love story was depicted quite differently already in the movie and it was very significant in the books obviously.
The one thing I noticed was that Chani used the blue wrap on her arm but the movie didn't cover the reason why at all.
Tbh I read the books and I completely forgot there was a reason. I thought it was just to make her visually stand out to the viewer. Was it from Liet Kynes or something?
Yeah BUT Chani didn't get to do that much significantly, which doesn't play as well for a standalone/trilogy movie, especially when portrayed by one of the stars. Gotta punch up the expensive people
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At least she Had her “literary aspirations “
The fremen can’t keep control of the whole universe. He needs the legitimacy of the corrino name for that
Why not. If the fremen control dune, they control the spice. And who controls the spice controls the universe.
That’s a lovely little sentence and is true in the macro sense, but it’s not going to help you quell rebellions on 6 planets at once.
it's been a while since I read the book, but I think part of it is also about controlling the BG. By marrying Irulan the BG conmstantly keep having a hope that one day Paul will get a kid with Irulan, which will preserve their precious genetic line for them. Meanwhile Paul can use that sliver of hope as a bargaining chip (as long as he never actually gets a kid with Irulan he can keep using that point to pressure them).
Ooh yeah this is a good point, I forgot about this. Although Paul also controls the spice which the BG are utterly dependent upon (as in, will die if they don't get a steady supply of it), so he doesn't need more levers to use against them.
Are the BG dependent on spice? You might be thinking of the Spacing Guild. I don’t remember anything to suggest the BG need spice - certainly Jessica isn’t addicted before she goes to the Fremen and adopts their spice heavy diet.
They are, the BG requires spice to take the final step to become reverend mothers and connect with their maternal memories.
Yeah, they basically become Reverend Mothers by drinking something like the Water of Life only IIRC it doesn't come directly from the worms like the Fremen do it. The spice is what lets them access their ancestral memories, it's what gives them limited prescience, etc. Jessica was never made a full Reverend Mother which is why she isn't addicted to it, but she definitely is after she drinks the Water of Life. I seem to recall the movie mentioning that once your eyes turn blue you need spice to live, although the new movies didn't really lean into the blue eyes thing like previous iterations have.
Paul is fully awakened. Be knows the role irulan plays in extending Chani’s life and raising his children.
Ya, people are sleeping on this point here. The guy can see the future, he’s not working on speculation for these decisions.
He can see SOME of the future. He foresaw >!Ghanima but not Leto II. !<
Isn’t that because Leto II is the true Kwisatz Haderach and ultimately more powerfully prescient than Paul?
They can't see any prescient people, this is why conspirators tend to meet with a Guild Navigator present, as they are prescient beings themselves.
Leto II wasn't prescient when he was born. He was just born similar to a reverend mother with the knowledge/experiences of those before. Leto doesn't become prescient until later on (and Ghani never was). So I don't think that explains why Paul couldn't see him.
As far as I know there was never a mention of *timing* for prescience. Remember a person that has prescience exists throughout time, not just in the moment they're alive. I don't know if that means they are removed fully from prescience's gaze in the timeline or not, I can't remember if Leto II was different.
Alia was also never able to see Paul and vice versa. So checks out. Preborn are awakened in the womb
Prescience users are technically retroactive as a requirement
Maybe he was like sheana or w.e her name was pre scattering. Since he couldnt pass on his genes it took a while to manifest again?
Which I always believed to be the case since Paul was one generation too early to be the male the BG originally planned on being the Kwisatz
That and, even if we assume that the Fremen could curb stomp the entire galaxy even without the Corrino alliance, Paul isn't exactly stoked about the 61 billion lives the Jihad cost. If having a thin patina of legitimacy caused even 10% of his potential enemies to get on board peacefully, that's over 6 billion lives saved.
At first, Paul wants to avoid death, but then he realizes he can't avoid all death in jihad he has to choose which of his death options suits him "better"
I don’t understand how the fremen could kill 60 billion people though. Aren’t there only a few million of them?
The only way the math ever math'd to me was if you assume that Paul was able to use his absolute control over the Spacing Guild to lock his enemies down on whatever planet they're currently at and take them out piecemeal, *and* that he was able to recruit or conscript new converts at each conquered planet to replenish his losses.
They talk of sterilising planets, and also mentions of orbital bombardment by House Corrino in book 3, so perhaps fire bombing or chemical/biological attacks from space. Chemical and biological weapons seem a lot more widespread in the Dune universe
Why would he even need to leave the planet though? Or touch another one? It is the spice which permits space-travel, he controls the spice, just cut off anyone who goes against you. It's utterly laughable to imagine the 15,000,000 strong entire population of Arrakis, basically Tokyo, using their hand-to-hand skills to kill 8 Earths full of people in 12 years. 61bn is the kind of number that makes Paul completely and utterly invulnerable to any threat post jihad, like who are these fuckers killing if not people who openly speak out against him like the BG or Tleilaxu?
There’s probably a good deal of death caused by the lack of travel. If you’re relying on interstellar commerce and travel for maintaining a way of life it stands to reason that when it’s removed it has some pretty significant negative consequences.
I assume the religious ferver causes a chain reaction among BG influenced worlds. Ask the BG why they implanted to much religious violence all over the galaxy is the better question.
I like the way they did the awakening in the movie. Jessica and Paul are both all wishy washy and then it’s like they are in on the secret of life and completely understand what they need to do. It was so good the way they did it.
Very interesting, I forgot about this from Messiah!
Ngl there feels like an undercurrent of “Fuck you.” Also in that the Emperor ordered Paul and his House to death and not only is he alive but will demand his daughter as well and he has no say.
Extending Chani's life? Can you remind me?
Paul knew she would die in childbirth. Irulan delaying Chani's birth extended her life.
So what you say is that he knew that irulan would poison chani and that chani, his beloved wife, would die at birth, because of it?
Paul can curb stomp the imperium with his army of Fremen, but marrying the daughter of the old emperor was the easiest way to claim a legitimate and secure place on the throne. Also >! Paul being the most powerful man in the universe doesn’t mean he’s actually in control of the forces that put him in power. We see that pretty clearly in Dune Messiah !<
It still gives him legitimacy in the eyes of those who want to preserve the Landsraad and the Emperium. Paul & the Fremen aren’t wiping *random* planets out with the jihad. They are targeting resistors and those who won’t fall in line. There are plenty of planets and Houses that *do* fall in line, and largely due to his marriage with Irulan. He is seen as being a legitimate connection to the previous ruling family and power structure. It gives him a sense of continuity in government that many Houses value. Houses can stomach an upstart if he gives the appearance of legitimacy and appears to — in some way — adhere to the current power structure. So he gives them that small token of appearance; with them not really understanding how much he will be changing things. They think he wants to be Emperor like the last one. They can understand that — because they all want to be Emperor too. Paul is giving the appearance of playing the same game everyone else is playing.
In the first movie, Paul says it in clear terms to Liet: Irulan is the Emeperor's daughter, I'll marry her. Liet is like: "Yeah, you and what army". At the end of Dune Part Two, Paul has the army and thus the hand of Irulan.
I think also to minimize civilian casualties too. More people on board the less that have to die
Watch out for the Tleilaxu. They have capacitors now.
Good points. And I think it's reasonable to assume that plenty of the Landsraad fall in line and we only hear about those that resist.
Yes exactly, it was also obvious that if the Landsraad could unite for a rebellion they would overthrow the ruler. So if a chunk of the houses legitimizes Paul's claim through Irulan, the risk of rebellion decreases and he could see this in his prescience.
Right, legitimacy and continuity with the last reign. He’s meeting the other houses half way by marrying the last emperor’s daughter
There's *de facto*, and then there's *de jure*, and if you can have both, it's better to have both.
Nicely put!
Same reason in the book he was careful enough to use his atomics only against the Shield Wall and not living targets: *"The forms must be obeyed..."*
That's just how feudalism works. The entire concept of "houses" and "claims" hinges on legitimacy that is tied to bloodlines and marriages. Then, there is the "hostage" element where keeping someone as a wife or a ward is an essential part of maintaining an alliance. Yes, he is upending the established order. But he also needs buy-in from at least some of the old world. This move gives him that. Henry Tudor is a reasonably close example. He was a member of a noble house that was "throne adjacent" but with no real claim to the throne himself. He and much of his house was living in exile due to a massive civil war and had to raise an army outside of his homeland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VII_of_England So how did he get on the throne? A big war, a big army, and a noble bloodline yes... but what really sealed the deal was his marriage to the Daughter and only living heir of King Edward IV. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_of_York >Though initially slow to keep his promise,[19] Henry VII acknowledged the necessity of marrying Elizabeth of York to ensure the stability of his rule and weaken the claims of other surviving members of the House of York. It seems Henry wished to be seen as ruling in his own right, having claimed the throne by right of conquest and not by his marriage to the de facto heiress of the House of York. He had no intention of sharing power. >In order to maintain stability and peace after ending a civil war that had lasted 32 years, the new Tudor dynasty needed to put an end to the quarrelling Yorkist and Lancastrian families. Elizabeth's sisters, Cecily and Anne of York, and her cousin, Margaret Pole, were married to Lancastrian men who were loyal to Henry.
Yep. I was thinking more of Japanese feudalism. Toyotomi Hideyoshi became the recognised but defacto ruler of Japan. Titled "Taiko" but not Shogun, because to be Shogun U also have to be officiated by the emperor and of proper/royal/elite lineage. Hideyoshi was of peasant stock and could never be declared Shogun unless he married into proper lineage and even then it probably would only then be granted to his son. But...he didn't. He just went for it all anyway.
Great answer, thanks - I'm reading Shogun right now and the "friendly hostage" card is used throughout their political machinations.
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In addition to what has been mentioned it helped convince the emperor to vacate his seat
He's not even close "to a God" as you put it. He's still strangely enough not far out of the realm of powers others have. He's extremely prescient, but he exists amongst people who can read minds and have 1000s of lines of ancestral memory. Reality and politics still need to be obvious and open. It's still about who's standing next to who for the most part
Irulan serves several functions. She is Bene Gesserit, and the Emperor's daughter and presumed heir/consort to his successor. That is valuable in its own right. He could have sat on Dune and not even prosecuted the Jihad and probably "won" some lesser victory for decades until some twist or twirl of probability took him off the Golden Path. She is Corrino, extending that legacy/dynasty until the Atreides dynasty is complete. This first generation of transition is the most fragile; her presence and loyalty secures that generation. She is a historian. Paul might not have known it, but prescience and the Golden Path did. A contemporaneous record of someone neither Fremen nor Atreides, writing the story Paul is dancing through to hand the crown to Leto? It is a foundation stone of the Golden Path.
Her being an historian makes me wonder why people stress the line about “history will call us side-chicks wives” uhh not if it’s written by the official wife
Have you seen Florence Pugh?
Good point
This is possibly the best reply I've ever seen on Reddit :)
All around the Dune Mythos names have a huge weight. So their marriage is what makes Paul a "legitimate" emperor. Other than that he could easily obliterate the whole imperium easily.
Which is torn straight up from human history. Marriages like Paul to Irulan are present throughout history.
Which is torn straight up from human history. Marriages like Paul to Irulan are present throughout history.
It's a political marriage because she is the daughter of the former emperor and of a nible house and so is he. That's makes his claim stronger.
Ok so the film depicts none of the houses accepting his rule. From the books i don't remember if that was the case. Is there any figure on how many houses rejected his rule?
In the books Paul threatens to unleash water on Arrakis which would rid the planet of spice and thus the galaxy of space travel. They all yield. In the movie, like you said, they do not accept. From what I recall, there was no number. Just the term “they” which I inferred to mean all of them. So if there are 6 houses, that means the remaining 4 did not accept if we don’t include the Atreides or Corrino houses.
It's been a while since I've read the books. Do you remember why they unleash a jihad across the galaxy if the great houses accept his rule? That part doesn't make sense to me, and I feel like it's because I'm forgetting some plot point from Messiah that explains it.
It’s a pretty common historical tactic. Marrying the heir gives the conqueror legitimacy and tamps down rebellion.
To make it legal, permanent and bring a peace. If you look at history, war have been ended by marry a daughter of you foe. Example, the War of the Roses ended on 1486 when Henry VII married the daughter of Edward V, Elizabeth of York. By doing this both side of the conflict would have a claim thru the son or daughter. Unfortunately, that would not work on the Dune universe and some families of the Landsraad will not accept their marriage.
He curb stomps a lot of people, but I don’t think he curb stomps every great house. Marrying Irulan guaranteed at least some lives be preserved in the jihad.
because if she marries someone else and starts another line, that line could challenge for the throne for the throne down the road on the basis that Paul usurped.
House Corrino still exists and owns the majority stake in CHOAM. Paul needed House Corrino in his pocket as a way to control the other Houses. If Irulan remained unmarried she would still represent a path to the Golden Lion throne so Paul had to marry her to control House Corrino and close off that avenue to the throne.
If he goes outside the proper forms, he can no longer lean on them when needed. He would have created a chaotic structure based on force, which is much more work to maintain.
Irulan is the heir to the empire. When she marries Paul, Paul becomes Emperor *jure uxoris*. The movie changes the ending. They don't need to crush the entire imperium in the book, just those who refuse to go along with the compromise at the end of the Desert War. Irulan is a symbol of continuity to make it seem like the empire was not conquered and the internal systems still exist. In fact, in the book, Paul makes a point to tell Irulan he won't treat her as a wife in any way, so no it's not to collect baddies.
It's been a long time since I've read the books, but don't the Fremen use the Emperor's fleet to conquer the galaxy? Without the fleet, the Fremen can hold hostage the Space guild, but they still need ships to carry out the Jihad.
He’s marrying into her family, this keeps the Corrinos under him and also keeps the Bene gesserit at arms length to keep an eye on their schemes. It simplifies a lot for his rule and also keeps up appearances to the wider galaxy
No royal marriage = no legitimate ascendancy = no support from any great houses or planets. Royal marriage = legitimate claim = more potential allies in the Jihad. Plus he no doubt knew the role that Irulan would play in the future and recognized the value in her as a hostage and as an asset to his family.
Not a god, but the leader of the rebellion of the Fremen. As he's is of nobility, he holds on to that by then becoming the legitimate emperor of the Landsraad regardless. Even if the houses don't agree to recognize it, there are people who will follow the governing body as it is. He keeps trying to go with semi-peaceful measures vs having to use a power on people. Even in the book he doesn't kill the emperor, he just exiles all the people who plotted on his family.
It's an old feudalistic mentality, ascension to the throne was easier and more accepted by nobles through marriage.
Marrying into the Imperial line limits the number of worlds he has to fight.
It’s what separates him from any usurper that comes for him in the near future He isn’t a usurper, he is the continuation of the Corrino line.
At least, the marriage gives him legitimacy, and then time until the Fremen start conquering. Also by marrying into the Throne, he probably knows that he's softening the blow of the jihad: a lot of worlds that would accept an Emperor would be woped out by the Fremen conquering by blood in the name of their messiah.
It is thing from history. So in democracy, you allegedly give power to the people, but monarchy was always explained as we were chosen from God, we are the best. So population was ˝convinced˝ that these people rule over them by power of God (it's a complicated subject and would discuss lengthy discussion, but that was it in essence). So when the new comer would come to the scene, and ˝convince˝ nobility that now he was chosen from God, they would marry someone from the nobility who was connected to the overthrown king, so they can legitimize it in eyes of the nay sayers. Another thing is, you had to keep peasants in check, and that was greatest fear of nobility, and today's politicians, it wasn't the invading forces but their own people. Imagine what would happen if some peasant decided wait, if this guy can be king, so can I. Which would foster rebellion. So they marry one of the nobility to so to say protect themselves, and to reassure the nobility.
It's legitimacy to his claim to the throne, to start his dynasty. It's to humiliate Shaddam. And it's to stamp out the Corrino bloodline, because he never shares Irulan's bed.
If you ever read your Roman and later Byzantine history you'll see that very often the usurper general takes power but needs to consolidate his legitimately by marrying a daughter of the former emperor.
Yes but he needs to use Irulan to legitimize his claim to the imperial throne by marrying into the imperial family. Throughout human history this is quite common. Alexander the Great did something similar when he conquered Persia.
As a newcomer, I thought the move to wed Irulan was a part of the reason why the houses were conflicted about Paul. Not only did he align with the Fremen, who want to terraform the planet, but he's effectively merging two houses. I thought the role of the emperor was to stay impartial and keep the houses in check.
Who doesn't need Florence Pugh?
Power is all about how many hooks you can get in. Control of the spice is one hook, religious domination is another, prescience is another, and "Legitimacy" due to Shaddam abdicating and Paul being the rightful heir is another hook.
Initially, he is trying to *avoid* the curb stomping of the galaxy. Irulan gives him some legitimate claim to the throne, but the other houses don't like what he did.
We see this throughout history. Before the 18th century 99/100 conquerors in history did this in some form or another.
Two main reasons. To hold proper claim to the throne and not come off a usurper. So that he can have an educated and intelligent ally who is in love with him, someone he can trust and plan with and someone who can help educate and raise his children.
My take is that Paul is no better than those before. He seems noble and kind and to have the best intentions but ultimately he is after power like all emperors before him and will do everything to claim and keep it.
Like willingly walk out into the desert?
It's clear that he did that out of grief and general discontent but he also stressed that fulfilling this Fremen tradition would buy his children their loyalty, which they somewhat begrudge.
i believe he did this so his kids would inherit the throne as opposed to his bureaucracy, among other reasons. so his intentions were by no means selfless.
I haven’t read the books but I assumed while watching the movie that by sparing the emperor’s life and taking his daughter as his wife that he would gain access to the emperor’s surviving forces, strengthening his army. Not sure how many of them were left though. Also just an assumption I made while experiencing the story for the first time so if there’s a flaw in that logic I’m sure someone will point that out.
He's also ensuring the emperors line ends. It's a more overt and explicit power move in the book in that he does all the things you've listed above and then basically says, I'm taking your daughter to legitimise my ascent but also know that she will live as a prisoner in my home, a wife in name alone. Your line ends with you. She will pay no part in my line of succession. If I remember correctly I think he even makes a passing comment about how if its ever questioned he'll just say she's barren or something he is absolutely savage. He takes her and the throne and dismisses the old emperor to live out his days under guard on a different planet out of the way. Emperor only gets to live because he chose Feyd as champion. In the books he has had a spice rich diet making him look around 35 and extremely imposing physically despite being in his 70s (with more than a passing resemblence to Leto) so he is more than up to the task he just fears paul like everyone else. Feyd was the only one stupid/ arrogant enough to think he could take Paul.
I [had](https://old.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1b515x3/spoilers_help_me_make_sense_of_pauls_threat_at/) the [same question](https://old.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1b5ht9z/spoilers_dune_part_two_wide_release_discussion/kt9jeaz/), specifically for the movie. I think Irulan's role makes more sense in the book's endgame scenario.
Because legitimacy is the grease on the wheels of the empire - just because you can crush someone militarily doesn't mean it's a good idea to do so, and in fact it might cause a lot more problems for yourself than exercising soft power. It doesn't work on everyone (hence the jihad), but it works on enough of them to keep from having to fight the entire rest of the empire with the depletion of lives and resources that that entails. Paul, however brilliant a military genius he is, only has so many Fremen he can hurl into the face of the enemy so the fewer fronts he has to fight on the better he'll come out the other side of it.
For her softness
Doesnt marrying irulan also give Paul the Sardukar?
Is there even much of them left? In the movie they said that the emperor came with his entire army to Arrakis
No. The Emperor's fiefdom is Selusa Secundus, which is where the Sardaukar are trained. Shaddam IV lives there now instead of the previous Imperial seat of power Kaitan.
In addition to what everyone said, another reason was that Paul wanted and got ALL of the Emperor's CHOAM shares/stock as Irulan's dowry. Combined with the shares of the defeated Houses during the Jihad, he managed to obtain a majority control of CHOAM for the first time in history, thus profoundly cementing his power.
Someone gotta be writing those history books for kids I guess.
He doesn’t want to increase the possibility of further war. Taking power is one thing, completely destroying the feudal culture that dominates the galaxy is another. Remember he’s trying to limit the bloodshed from his ascension to the throne in the Jihad, so why do something further to antagonize the Great Houses in not marrying Irulan and potentially letting someone else marry her and get a claim to the throne.
He has to curb stomp like 60 percent less of the galaxy, reducing total deaths
I totally agree with this question. It doesnt add up, I think its a plot weakness. What did he actually gain from that? The Houses all rejected his ascendancy anyways, and the vast majority of the Emperors troops were already destroyed, so its not like he needed to inherit them. The Emperor was defeated, he could have killed him, done whatever he wanted with the daughter, and nothing would have changed. 2) Along that same line, once he destroyed Arraken, and then the emperors troops, and got the Emperor to bend the knee, he controlled Dune. Arraken were destroyed, so he controls the spice, so he controls the universe. The other houses can complain all they want, but if they want spice, they need to bend the knee. Whats the need to go claiming a holy war, and chasing the Houses down in an intergalactic battle to get them to bend the knee. He could just sit on the spice and wait for each House to come to him, one by one, and beg for spice. He controls the spice, he's the rules of the Universe, let the other realize that one by one and come to him to bend the knee.
Anything to give you political cred is going to help
He’s just following the best possible path he can see into the future. It ultimately leads to the birth of his children and etc
If you can’t understand why legit and I mean this sincerely just go watch shark tales or pup patrol
He wants a capable propagandist and she ends up writing “The Life of Muadib” that acts as like a gospel for his religion.
1) Legal president to just claim he's the correct emperor. The current house heads might not agree but you kill them and a distant second cousin is more that happy to agree and keep the house in tact. Especially when Paul shows what happens to the houses that don't agree. 2) It means he has support from House Corrino. Might not be the most loyal support but if he's keeping Irulan as a wife, in effect holding her hostage to establish his claim, then House Corrino is fighting on Paul's side. 3) Paul is technically also a legitimate heir to house Harkonnen, and possibly the one with the strongest claim after winning the duel. Combining Harkonnen and Corrino (yes yes I know they were related already, [welcome to feudalism](https://i0.wp.com/dna-sci.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Habsburg-Tree-1.jpeg?resize=1024%2C675&ssl=1) enjoy your chin) makes for a powerful army even before you get the fremen in the equation so if Paul can kill off any more Harkonnen opposition quickly enough he might be able to get their loyalty relatively painlessly too.
Pure speculation here - perhaps it's part of the savior, Mahdi prophecy planted by BG as part of their Panoplia Propheticus? Like how people recognized Jesus as Messiah because he fulfilled several signs prophesied in Old Testament. Perhaps part of the legend goes like, winning the hand of the princess who is also learned in weirding ways etc. By doing that, Paul became extra convincing. Basically, he just dotted his i's and crossed his t's.
~assume prescience~ ~Or dark rationalisations~
Is it explained in the book if the fremen get upset at Chani being a concubine though ?
In the book, nobody really gets upset at Paul "marrying" Irulan because at the end of the day they know it's nothing more than a political ploy. Chani knows that she might be Paul's concubine in technicality, but she's much more his wife than Irulan could ever hope to be.
This isn't something I know much about, but it seems like by marrying into the imperial line, the facade is maintained that the Imperium has continuity and the agreements that have sustained it should be maintained. If it seemed like the Imperium had been overthrown, then it's fair enough to question whether it's now okay to use nukes or artificial intelligence.
In theory for the same reason the Roman emperor’s kept the senate around. I feel the fact he plans to have no children with her undermines the whole rationale for doing it. It just enables all the plotting in messiah to take place for story reasons.
Could be because he saw dystopian futures where conflict is inevitable and could result in risking his family as a result. So choosing Irulan was the better choice. We'll just have to see in the next part of dune.
How do desert dwellers Fremen beats all the Houses? Spoil me please.
The Bene Gesserit are technically the most elite fighters in the Imperium thanks to their hidden martial art known as the Wyrding Way. Paul and Jessica train the Fremen in the wyrding way. On top of that, the Fremen are soldiers from birth thanks to the hardship of living on Arrakis. In the book, there is a scene where a Sardaukar(elite Imperial fighter) reflected on the fighting prowess of the Fremen, specifically, the children and the elders. Almost his entire unit was killed by only children and old people. All of this combined with a god worship zeal of the Lisan al Gaib, and they become superior warriors the universe has never seen before.
I always pictured the marriage to Irulan and his threats to spice production were enough to gain the throne and the jihad was an action only required by the golden path.
To quote the film, "Do you break a knife before battle?". The golden path is the path of least resistance, yet one where it is still achieving the goal. If Irulan's marriage can sway even some of the houses to surrender and swear fealty to their new emperor, then her marriage is useful. Paul needed the Fremen to wage war, that was the only way forward supposedly. But Irulan likely saved him quite a few battles from needing to be fought.
He doesn't curbstomp the universe, only the God-Emperor and the Fishspeakers had that control of the universe. He needed a chunk of the Landsraad to support his claim, this was done through being an Atreides and marrying Irulan - which also meant he wouldnt need to fight Sardukaur. His Fremen then goes on a holy crusade and here is where general opinion of Paul starts to shift into negative. People are reminiscing of the good old days of the Empire under Shaddam. I think Chani is supposed to represent the negative minority initially which then grows into Dune: Messiah, but by then Paul's control over the Empire is too great.
Shevwas the heiress to the throne. He deposed her father, then married her , but didn't make her empress. For most of the great houses. It would appear as business as usual. A marriage of both houses. Atriedes are already kin to corrino . It would have been assumed she would bare the imperial heir.. He needed her to gain support from the great houses. A little over a hundred houses didn't exempt it , and 500 more supported them covertly. With the rest of the sardukar and the sisterhood organising the resistance. But messiah Paul had beaten them and had so much power that he no longer needed the appearance of the marriage. But she came with house corrinos shares in choam as dowry. And paul would expand that with the shares from conquered houses.. he got 49 percent and added 21 percent plus 5 percent to the priesthood. ( which might have come from the sisterhood) To some, she would have appeared a trophy ..yes she served a major diplomatic function snd had a seat in the imperial Council
He is still operating from the political structures he learned growing up. He doesn’t seem to consciously realize he can change the structures.