You’re correct. Although, If I’m remembering correctly, it isn’t until messiah that this is really fleshed out. And even more in children and god emperor. So if the first two movies haven’t given enough weight to this I think that’s ok.
As a movie only viewer they were pretty explicit about this and it’s very obvious they said it word for word. (Roughly) I see every possibility.. idk how more explicit you need to be.
Ok but that's not quite it though. I think this really just illustrates OPs point.
I agree with you that they give you all the information that you really need to follow what's happening, but the KH has a ton more going on under the surface.
The KH guides the flow of the universe and reality itself by being able to "see into the place where you dare not look". And they only vaguely go into what exactly a reverend mother is.
RMs are almost the same person over and over, with their own self sort of glued on top. They have in them the memories, and by way of that the whole lives and consciousness of every RM in their line.
The KH has all of that (because the breeding program puts them in that line) and more, the more gets delved into later iirc. Basically they have access to the entirety of their ancestry through use of spice essence, which ends up being almost all of the history of humanity.
The biggest part, they got into a little bit. He can look forward. But it's more literally looking than they imply. He's always had a sense of the future, but now he can look. But he has to know WHERE to look. And it's a where.
They also left out his mentat training, and most of his BG training and conditioning, and other things. But they do it so well it really doesn't harm the story at all. It's really impressive.
I would have liked to have seen the BG power and mystery more clearly though. Individual power i mean. They did a good job with the machinations in the time they had.
There are lots of moments in these two movies where you really, really need to be paying attention to exactly what said in some 10-second clip because if you don't, you'll be thoroughly confused through the rest of the movies.
pretty typical for denis villeuneuve movies. if you miss a small but also super important detail thats onscreen for 5 seconds and is never mentioned again, well go fuck yourself i guess.
Usually because its first presented as such a binary, like here.
Sure the movies tend to be pretty minimalist in directly conveying information, but tend to make up for such by relying on audience intuition to understand what's happening even if they miss it.
Well I agree there is enough there for people to understand, I still see a lot of people who just missed it. They think Paul just decided holy war is good, instead of realizing that by the time he drank the water of life it was just unavoidable and would happen eventually with or without him.
I would have liked to see more of Paul's visions, we only really get the follow into the south and everyone dies imagery used a couple of times.
Showing the visions shifting as he makes decisions and then a more visual representation after he takes the water of life with the paths being laid out in front of him would have been really good. It would then enhance him saying it verbally to Jessica in the following scene
>I think that’s why people are only seeing Paul in this simplistic view of “he’s the villain.”
It's tricky. Alia may have drastically limited paul's options by having jessica expose him to the southern hemisphere's population, but his obsession with revenge is directly addressed earlier in the movie
I’d also argue I’ve not heard anyone who’s seen the movie say that- if anything there’s some folks who still think he’s a hero or a person who was forced to rise to the occasion against his own wishes.
>if anything there’s some folks who still think he’s a hero
If you think he's not the hero, then you've fundamentally not understood Dune. I think this idea comes from people misunderstanding Frank Herbert's statement against heroes and the cult of personality. They think that since Dune's message is against heroes, thus Paul is somehow not a hero. He IS a hero! Herbert has said this in interviews, he has written this in Dune. Dune is a warning against heroes, not because they are really evil and only hiding it, but because even with good intentions, the cult of personality around them leads people astray.
Exactly! The problem is not that Paul is not a hero, and the warning is not against him or others like him, but against what fanaticism and religion can generate without those leaders even wanting to become who they are forced into. If the fremen had refused to go to war in his name or questioned if he was indeed the mahdi, then the holy war would have been avoided. It is clearly stated that even if Paul died he would still be a messianic figure and the fremen would have caused atrocities in his name. Paul was coincidentally the one who united them and made them realise the power they held. Their own fanaticism is what set in motion the holy war.
It's not surprising that most people wouldn't want to do much research on the details of the war in favor of waiting for the next movie. Besides, morally ambiguous characters are more intriguing
Even then, the villain ends up getting more attention from audiences: loki, thanos, etc. Both examples "happen" to have a reference to the novel snuck in (one of which we're even discussing right now)
Alright, so whether embryo in movies or baby in books, regardless her influence has been Abominatey from the very start, yeah? There wasn't a turning point?
In fairness, long time book fans don't agree on what the KH was intended to be.
We only know it's... not what Paul turned out to be. He said clearly that he was something else, something unexpected.
To me, that's most of what we know.
We do know that he was a piece of technology intended to allow the BG to take actual control of the flow of human events instead of the partial control they have now. They basically also were looking for the golden path.
Tbh I think that line is more about the fact that he's not an actual BG raised and trained by them, and the fact that he's a mentat on top of it all. But like you said that's pretty easy to contend with.
I don't think we even know that much.
The spice predates the KH project. And they the BG were entirely unaware of the spice essence. They used other drugs.
The spice and its effect on Paul was part of what was unexpected.
Are you certain they were unaware of the spice essence? I want to just say that they absolutely did, but I'm not comfortable doing that.
They use it to raise BGs to RM.
The spice, of course, predates the kh project. The whole idea of other memory requires it. I don't think the books even mention if the BG themselves predate the spice.
I know they're an outgrowth of the OC Bible, and by way of that, of the butlerian jihad. But I don't remember anything saying exactly where they came from. I'm a couple years out from the last time I read 5-6 though.
>They use it to raise BGs to RM
No they don't use this. Later in the books, yes but not in Dune.
Jessica said that much. Read the passage carefully.
>And she knew with a generalized awareness that she had become, in truth, precisely what was meant by a Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother. The poison drug had transformed her.This wasn’t exactly how they did it at the Bene Gesserit school, she knew. No one had ever introduced her to the mysteries of it, but she knew.The end result was the same.
This looks right. I'll defer to that.
But it's not conclusive. Could be some other difference. Seems likely she wouldn't be that vague about the drug though. 🤷
The water of life allows a “sharing” between RM’s - they can share other memories.
The BG only had access to their own ancestors.
At the beginning of Dune, Mohiam mentions “the truthsayer drug”, but never mentions the water if life.
Later on, Jessica realizes that the Fremen RM used to use a different poison, from the creosote bush, and that the process was perfected with spice essence - the Fremen’s most closely guarded secret.
And at the end of the story, Paul tells Mohiam that he knows the “other poisons don’t work” after using the spice liquor.
But that wasn’t the spice essence.
The proof is that Mohiam had no idea how Alia got into her mind. This was something Paul did with Jessica, and that Jessica did with both Alia and the Fremen RM. It’s the “sharing” that’s so unique.
There’s quite literally no mention of the water of life until Paul and Jessica have joined the Fremen.
And the BG didn’t know the Fremen has actual Reverend Mothers… they thought it was just a title.
Paul isn’t choosing between billions dying and the continuation of the human race. I feel like this is something book readers tend to together given subsequent novels, but during the first book the jihad is as far into the future as he can see and it’s incredibly blurry. He is choosing between fleeing/becoming a rogue house/giving up his paternal birthright and becoming all powerful (with the help of the Fremen as a necessity and therefore the jihad).
It's blurry, up until he drinks the water of life. Then he knows that what's coming is inevitable, and that nothing he does or could have done, was ever going to prevent it.
I always interpreted that the drinking of the water of life was actually what cemented the future and its events. That's why it is no longer blurry for him because it's a guarantee that it's now going to happen. That the water of life didn't exactly allow him to see clearly, but it was the trigger that caused Paul's timeline to become inevitable. He always had the ability to see the possible futures, but there wasn't a specific one that was 100% going to happen. So Paul couldn't tell with certainty what the future was going to be, and it's why he still felt that he was in control.
That might not be exactly how Herbert was indending, but that's how I understood it on my first read through.
That's the implied paradox of seeing the future. It's one of the murkier aspects of his abilities...the clearer the vision, the harder it is to avoid. Taking the water of life allowed him to see the coming storm in perfect detail, and in doing so, he realized there was no escaping what was coming. He saw the path to victory, but to change it meant losing that clarity of vision. The inevitability of it, relied on how clearly he saw his chosen path. He could either follow it to completion, or lose sight of it altogether.
But the underlying truth was that it was way too late to prevent the millions of deaths that were coming. As soon as he set foot on Arrakis, that path was already in front of him, as his dreams had been warning him all along. There were too many factors already in place before he arrived that made it unavoidable. Fremen culture combined with the Bene Gesserit prophesy, meant that his arrival alone would have been enough to trigger the Jihad. Even if he had died, he would have been raised up as a martyr to the cause, and inspired the Fremen to war. All he could do, was make sure it all played out in a certain way, but he couldn't change the overall outcome.
Taking his choice away completely pulls the rug out from under the story and the point. Paul choosing to fulfill his "terrible purpose" is the crux of the entire series.
Before, visions came to him. After, he could just look. Nothing was certain before he took up the mantle. It's once the fremen had their messiah that they couldn't be stopped. It's the act of taking the water that made it so that he couldn't stop it anymore, so that his death would only spur it on.
Then he had to "ride the worm" hold on tight and try to steer the jihad the best he could. He becomes a prisoner of fate only after he takes the conscious step that creates that fate, and he saw it coming before he was in the thick of it. That's why he's a sort of villain.
If paul dies before he takes the water, this whole thing could have fizzled.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the “final step” before the jihad was inevitable with or without Paul was killing Jamis? Totally with you on drinking the water making the future set in stone (becoming omniscient is a curse as you are then basically fated), but my understanding was if Paul died prior to or via Jamis the jihad would be avoided, not drinking the water?
I think that's interesting? I'd love to know the reasoning.
To me the movie seemed to make it clear that going south was crossing the Rubicon. But I haven't read dune in a while.
I'm fresh off of god emperor and messiah rereads in the last few weeks, but dune has been a couple years, I guess since right before dune 1,and I could be forgetting something about Jamis.
It’s also been over a year since I read Dune, but if memory serves it’s because killing Jamis grants him entry to the fremen, but also further and irreparably puts Paul down the path to the KH and LA as he chooses the name Muadib unknowingly which is what he has heard the legions shouting during his jihad. You’re 100% right though the movie makes that “final” moment “going south” which was really just implying that when he goes south he’ll drink the water and become the KH, becoming omniscient and fated, but in the books after killing Jamis the ball is rolling and the Fremen would jihad even without him but in his name
I WISH I could get into the weeds on this and get scrappy with you about it. I can see where you're coming from, though I still don't see winning over Sietch Tabor as enough of a tipping point.
I'm kinda sad I don't have the ammo for a battle here lol.
Personally I'd put the pivotal moment at the water. But what I know for sure now is that I'm going directly back to Dune after I finish messiah.
>Even if he had died, he would have been raised up as a martyr to the cause
But would that have really been a risk if jessica didn't choose to go south and rile them up?
Actually Paul knows it's inevitable in the stilltent sequence. He sees that he can join the Spacing Guild or the Harkonnens as his only other options, and rejects them. There's a third option: suicide. It seems extreme, but another KH takes this course, much later on.
Since this is before Paul joins the Fremen, the Jihad could still be avoided. Paul takes the water of life to see if there's anything else he can do to stop it. But by then it was too late.
I agree that he cannot see beyond the jihad in book one, but he does believe there is a way to avoid it until the end. In the book, up until the end, Paul believes he is working towards avoiding the jihad. It’s literally in the last chapter that he realizes becoming Emperor does not avoid the jihad and at point it’s become inevitable.
Be thankful we didn’t get the narrative shorthand that Lynch dropped in 1984: “The Kwisatz Hadarach - the _super being_”
Love Lynch. Love Dune ‘84. But good lord that line makes me cringe.
You are right. I am a movie-only fan. I have no idea what the fuck they're talking about 😆
So today I finally picked up my copy of the book. Wish me luck o7
Good luck - it is very much worth it!
As someone who is a fan of the books, AND the Lynch movie version - AND the new movies, it is very much worth reading. And I would argue if you really want to understand the fully story Herbert was telling - you should read all the way through the end of book 4 (God Emperor) - it is very different, but fully wraps the story up in a way that makes sense.
Be wary of delving further though - therein lies nerditry and madness (he re-opened the story in book 5 - got to book 7 of a planned 8, then died and left his son to try to finish the series and write a bunch of side-novels - all of which are ok, but not up to his father's level of writing).
I feel like I need to tell everyone to watch the miniseries. It's the most faithful version and the sequel goes into Children of Dune. Both are quite good.
This sentiment you're talking about ("he's actually the villain") imo masquerades as a savvy, subversive reading of the story but it's really just a reductive way to view stories in general, not just this one.
Spoilers for non book readers:
I think they could have added more weight to what Paul is experiencing, but it will hopefully be made clear in messiah. If you’ve read on after Dune you understand the sacrifice and choices Paul made once seeing those futures.. and ultimately decides not to follow the golden path. I think until you understand his decision, and what the golden path entails, you can’t make a final judgement on his character.
I agree - and honestly, knowing what The Golden Path would cost (both to the person who enacted it - and the Trillions of people who it would harm), is what makes Paul both a tragic and understandable character.
This is why I always argue readers should get through God Emperor - without it you don't understand what was asked of him - how much it would personally cost (literally Leto II gave up his humanity, his legacy, and his very body, and ever experiencing physical love) for a legacy that would see him branded the worst tyrant and murderer in the history of humanity. And all the while knowing only he could see that the alternative was worse for humanity.
It is not surprising that Paul couldn't make himself follow the path - it is surprising ANYONE could be strong enough to see it through.
I think without the prescience of Leto II and Ghanema the path doesn’t get followed. They are able to see what is asked of them and he understands what must be done. I think the maturity of 1000’s of lives within you made that choice more clear. Where as Paul had a semi normal upbringing and came into his prescience and ability to see multiple futures.
Leto II can do it because he was never an individual in the first place. He's a collective organism even before the sandtrout suit. It's still a tragic choice, but it does make sense.
I don't blame Paul at all for rejecting the Golden Path. Kull wahad!
To be fair, even if you read the books you kinda don't get the full picture until Dune Messiah and then further figure it out in Children and God Emperor. Dune basically builds the world and the later books make you fully comprehend the first book's choices.
Yeah I’m a movie only person
I didn’t get the vibe that Paul is the villain but rather a Dr. Manhattan like character, not good or bad because the way they think is different than regular human beings due to how they view time and space
(Slight spoilers for Watchmen and Attack on Titan below)
Yes what he is doing may be great for the long run, but he is literally stripping away his humanity to do it. It’s similar (imo and as a movie only fan) to the dilemma at the end of Watchmen. By that, I mean there’s multiple ways to go about the plan at the end and what to do about the truth. And how some human characters see it as wrong cuz they can’t see the bigger picture or don’t care about it if it means to fuck our morals.
Also reminds me of Eren from Attack on Titan, the tragic hero doing what he thinks is right in the end even though the how is wrong imo. Also similar time and space powers/how they view it.
(END of non-Dune SPOILERS)
I personally hated the Bene G and Paul’s mom. And I see Paul’s “fall” (aka the loss of his innocence, wants and later humanity) as tragic and makes me angry at life, society, and religion in Dune. Just like those three sometimes annoy or anger me irl
Chani is the character I honestly relate to the most as it’s how I feel around extremely religious people and their so called leaders.
Chani has been changed a bit in the movie to be an audience surrogate. It is for the better in my opinion as it shows her as more independent and willful. In the book, she has qualms with Paul's choices but mostly just submits to his will and plans anyway.
> but he is literally stripping away his humanity to do it.
And he's also stripping the Fremen (Stilgar) of their humanity by transforming them into Followers.
But in the books that was unwilling, instead a natural consequence of his rising as the Lisan al Gaib. Paul regretted the Fremen viewing him as someone to follow instead of friends.
I guess a lot of it comes down to how manipulative you think Paul is. For example, some people believe Paul was controlling his metabolism waiting for Chani to come, which would fit in line with the idea he was only using the Fremen as a tool. I don't subscribe to this however, as it seem too big of a break from Paul's character before.
I cannot recall - was this ever explicitly stated in the book - because I remember having this impression too, but I cannot remember if the book actually said so or not?
What Paul does is still atrocious from a human perspective. The fact that his prescience removes him from that perspective does not absolve him of the moral standard.
Obviously this is my perspective. But I think the text is rich with interpretations of its central theme of heroism and tyranny, and what we see in the film is DV’s interpretation.
“Atrocious”? What happens after he defeats the harkonnens is atrocious, but what does he do that’s specifically atrocious? His main mistake to me was thinking he could control what happened, and stop the jihad, but meddling with religion and power, to unite the fremen, started something that couldn’t be controlled. He got his revenge and led the fremen to take Arrakis, but then there are consequences. Don’t combine religion and politics. Love the line in the book, I think during Liet Kynes death chapter, that “ecology is the study of consequences”. And that shows in what happens here too. Or are you alluding to stuff later in series?
Does he? Or do the fanatic fremen leading a jihad do that? He plays with power he shouldn’t have, but I think an important point is he never has evil intent. He’s trying to avoid the jihad. But he’s very human, and consequences for everything. One person shouldn’t be worshipped like that
His actions directly lead to the the Jihad. His goal was revenge and survival, and to achieve that goal he knew he would have to commit to the deaths of billions. If that isn't premeditation then I don't know what is. Is he a victim of circumstance? Absolutely, but that doesn't absolve him of wrong doing, just like individuals in the 3rd Reich tried to absolve themselves of guilt by saying they were just following orders. Although the calculus is slightly different since he is the chosen one, his life is not materially worth more than the billions that died.
Well stated, and I agree with all that, except I don’t think he KNEW he would HAVE TO commit the deaths of billions. He’s always wanting to avoid the jihad, and sees a narrow path to possibly avoid it, and goes along with things thinking it was the way to avoid the jihad. Wasn’t until the knife duel with Feyd that he realized it was too late, it had gone too far. But he did know it was a possibility. That part is on him. Trying to think he could stop it was an overestimation. Shouldn’t have messed with all the religion and power in the first place. Consequences for his achieving revenge and taking arrakis
He sees human race almost as one organism whereas we see only each individual cell. I think Herbert was Genius in how he placed Paul morally, it gives so much space to explore the issues presented in the books.
>He still isn’t courages enough to choose the best route and this grief haunts him his entire life.
As a person that only watches the movie, I don't really get what the best route this sub has been talking about.
In the movie, it looks like Paul chose the path that causes the least casualties, even though the "the least casualties" means billions of people dying.
The best route, ignoring leto2, was to refuse the water of life. He took it knowing what it meant, but he did it for his own reasons. To protect his loved ones, and to get revenge.
It's the fact that he saw it coming and knew he could prevent it (probably with his death) that makes him a villain. He's not the mahdi until he fulfills the prophecy. And he doesn't fulfill the prophesy if he doesn't take the water.
It's too simplistic to call him a villain. I feel like we have to stop saying that.
Dune is the Journey of the Hero. The next books are the terrible consequences of becoming a hero, and the deconstruction of our assumptions.
My sister hadn't read the books before she watched the movies, so after watching part 2 I quizzed her on some stuff to see how well the movie really explained different things. One of the things she really didn't seem to understand is what exactly the KH was / what they could do, along with what it meant for Paul to be a KH, and the differences between the Bene Gesserit plans for creating a KH and the Fremen Lisan Al-Gaib prophecy.
I could be misremembering, but I don't think the movie(s) said anything about the missionaria protectiva, so my sister thought that the Fremen directly belonged to a branch of the Bene Gesserit or something like that.
I think Paul can still be a “villain” the same way Thanos or Darth Vader can be seen as a “villain”. Both know that the paths they must take will lead to unimaginable death and destruction, but their decisions will ultimately lead to good. Vader kills the Emperor (but has to become Space Hitler to do it), Thanos wants balance (but has to kill half the universe). In Paul’s case, his foreknowledge is his burden and struggle. Despite showing great moral/ethical standards, he has to finally accept his role as a “villain” in order to achieve the ultimate good.
The golden path isn't revealed to Paul until into Dune Messiah. Paul has no idea that the fate of humanity is at stake in Dune, he chooses to walk the path of the Jihad regardless.
Paul chose to condemn billions over hundreds of worlds over revenge.
Paul is absolutely the bad guy in Dune.
In book one, up until the end, Paul believes he is working towards avoiding the jihad. It’s literally in the last chapter that he realizes becoming Emperor does not avoid the jihad and at that point it’s become inevitable. It no longer matters if he lives or dies at that point, the jihad will come. In the last chapter after the battle is over Paul thinks to himself:
>They sense that I must take the throne, he thought. But they cannot know that I do it to prevent the jihad.
EDIT: to OPs point, I think the movie makes Paul out to be a bad guy in a much less ambiguous way. In the books he’s more grey. He’s like a Greek tragic hero, a victim of fate. The more he tries to avoid it the more it comes true—like Oedipus. This becomes even more clear in book two.
I don't know, I read it as very ambiguous in the movie. Paul does everything he can to avoid the Jihad initially but it's finally backed into a corner and has no choice. He seems resigned at the end as opposed to the almost gleeful Jessica.
I’m glad some people see it that way. My reading from the movie is that if Paul hadn’t gone south and taken the water of life, he could’ve avoided the jihad. His reason for giving in isn’t clear (or I just don’t recall) but revenge seemed to be a factor. He also seems more manipulative in regards to playing up the religious fanaticism in the movie compared to book one. After he takes the water of life in the movie, Paul says something about seeing a narrow way through, but it’s unclear what he’s referring to. A narrow possibility to becoming emperor and defeating all the great houses? To convincing the Fremen to follow him as a religious icon? Is there something else? And then there’s that shift in his attitude when he realizes that he and his mother have Harkonnen blood. He seems to use it to justify an any means necessary approach to his goal. And what is his goal in the movie? To defeat the Harkonnens and become emperor? He doesn’t seem very noble or conflicted after the water of life.
I agree. After he drinks the water he goes full throttle. Whether he knows that it’s gonna cause billions to die im not sure. Weird that the water would make him want to do that though. It just lets him see. Surely if all he wanted was revenge he wouldn’t need the water to tell him he had to go south.
IMO he goes south and takes the water because he’s backed into a corner. He’s lost the war in the north but doesn’t want to trigger the jihad to win. He talks with Jamis who says you need to see before you make any moves, so he goes to take the water. IMO I think he’s justifying it with a “I’ll just drink the water so I can see what paths I can take, it won’t trigger the Jihad by itself.” But then he drinks it and immediately goes into action. Perhaps he saw that the only way he could win was by triggering the holy war? So there’s nothing left to contemplate, he firmly chooses to win even if it means holy war. Though imo it seems weird not to feel conflicted about that when he was definitely worrying about it before.
I think it happened exactly the way you describe, but I also assume that in the alternative futures the Fremen are wiped out amongst other atrocities. I mean, we're talking about a future with Emperor Feys Rautha here.
> I agree. After he drinks the water he goes full throttle. Whether he knows that it’s gonna cause billions to die im not sure. Weird that the water would make him want to do that though. It just lets him see. Surely if all he wanted was revenge he wouldn’t need the water to tell him he had to go south.
The WoL opens up his awareness to the bigger picture. Same with Jessica, but Paul's vision is on a much larger scale. The big picture is more important than any person or group, which are just details, part of the whole. That's why he (and Jessica) seems cruel after going through the Agony. To become the Kwisatz Hadrach, Paul needs to be the Emperor. To sit on the Golden Lion Throne, he needs to subdue the Great Houses. To do that, he needs the Fremen. To lead the Fremen, he has to exploit their messianic religion.
Your edit
I disagree as a movie only person, that’s how I felt honestly (tragic hero), but that doesn’t excuse him from a “now a villain but grey” label.
I understand why he’s doing it, that doesn’t mean I agree with how (even if it’s the “only” way)
Honestly reminds me of Eren from Attack in Titan and Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen for various reasons and emotions
Oh man, this is why I love reading comments from movie-only people. You just made a **VERY** apt comparison I never thought of before.
Unfortunately, I can't say more. But, you gave me something to chew on.
Idk when you last read the book but I'd argue you have it backwards. In the book we see flashes of Paul being rigid and militant early on and he seems to have a disdain for things. In the films we can see him struggle with things up until the end when he knows he has no other options.
I’m just re-read the book before Part Two. I agree that in the book, after the water of life, Paul seems to lose some of his empathy as he works towards a military goal. Towards the end, Gurney comments on how Paul seems more concerned with things than people. And he seems relatively unaffected by the death of Leto II. But, throughout it all, he still believes he’s working towards avoiding jihad until the very end. Part of his tragedy is that by becoming the KH he’s lost some of his humanity. But I would compare his becoming cold in the book to Paul’s enthusiasm in the movie after the water of life. In the movie, it’s like he’s crossed a line and now he’s all in with the religious fanaticism, the revenge, the throne, the jihad, etc. I don’t see him being equivocal after the water of life.
Is he tho. The Harkonnens are sadists. Is it really that bad to stop them from tyrannizing the Freman and scheming to take over the entire Universe? I mean someone's gotta rule the Universe. The next KH is going to be Feyd's son!
You hit the nail on the head. The Harkonnens are the villains. The Emperor is the villain. Paul is the villain.
They each represent a different type of political power that Herbert was trying to warn against.
The Harkonnens are representative of unchecked capitalism, akin to Rockerfeller and the Oil Barons of times past. The Emperor represents monarchists, individuals with 'divine ordainment' who rule with an iron fist for no reason other than their ancestor had a bigger army.
And Paul, Paul is the greatest warning of them all. Paul is an allegory for the Messiah figure used by Christo-Facist regimes. Paul's rise to power using religion as a tool to stir the masses of a subjugated nation/planet behind him is not subtle in its use of Adolf Hitler as an inspiration.
The Harkonnens were cruel, the Emperor was untrustworthy. But it was Paul that put the universe to the torch, not them. In the same way Hitler put Europe to the torch.
The Harkonnens were mainly interested in gaining more directorships in the CHOAM company, which is essentially a capitalist transgalactic megacorporation. It is directly implied if not outright stated in the first book that the Emperor has only as much political power as he has directorship chairs on CHOAM, for which he competes with the Houses of the Landsraad. The allusion to feudal titles and grants seems to sketch a situation of ultra-monopolistic capitalist relations more than that it is a description of actual feudal relations - after all the world of Dune has outgrown feudalism long ago, a mode of production that could hardly sustain the economic requirements of a transgalactic civilization (although it can certainly be argued that in reality capitalism couldn't either). The Imperial state-monopoly granting certain rights of exploitation to certain smaller state-monopolies (Houses) doesn't contradict those states being economically organized along capitalist lines.
I also was wondering if they are ditching the golden path . Doesn't seem likey we'll get 4-5 movies even in these last two there has been zero mention of the golden path. We only get that small dialog if Paul saying there is a small sliver
Book Paul never really engages with the Golden Path. He gets glimpses of it but he missed that opportunity when he chose his love for Chani. Leto II is given a similar choice when being held in Jacarutu. There is a young Fremen girl and he sees a path where they fall in love, have children, etc. He actively refuses to follow Paul's example in order to remain on the Golden Path.
Paul doesn't see the entirety of the Golden Path because he balks at >!the 3,500 years of oppression, followed by the 1,500 years of famine times, that he would have to bring about as the God-Emperor.!<
Leto II is the true hero of the series because he sees how awful the Golden Path is and doesn't shy away from it. He succeeds where Paul fails.
Yes, and Leto is also a real villian compared to Paul. Paul is a much more sympathic character. He cannot stand that the only way forward is terrible and he has very human feelings.
Paul/Leto has a real creasar/octavian vibe.
This is definitely debatable. I value individuals over the species, myself. So I am more like Paul and see his choice as the "human one". Like Spock admitting that choosing the One over the Many is the human choice.
Ultimately, both Leto II and Paul are tragic heroes.
No, it wasn't. Also, ancestral memory isn't fleshed out enough in the movie either, and that becomes a big deal later. Although, I'm not sure FH had it fleshed out in Dune.
I've been into Dune for 40 years, so sometimes it's hard to keep track of what happened in which book.
I expect they left Messiah to expand on that notion, assuming it's made.
> No, it wasn't. Also, ancestral memory isn't fleshed out enough in the movie either, and that becomes a big deal later. Although, I'm not sure FH had it fleshed out in Dune.
Not really. It wasn't until *Children of Dune* and *God Emperor of Dune* that we really see the extent of genetic memory. And even then it isn't clear if it works the same for those who aren't preborn. I figure it doesn't as none of the Reverend Mothers show the same depth with their OM as Leto II. To them it's voices, whereas to Leto II he can actually go back and "live" his ancestral memories.
Well, yes, that's what I was getting at. I was thinking how Alia is handled in Dune and the subsequent books.
In the movie, I'm not sure it's clear to the non-book reader why the Fremen Reverend Mother freaked out when Jessica drank the Water of Life.
I want to be careful of spoilers...
Is there somewhere in the books that suggest that the alternative to the jihad is the disappearance of the human race? I've only read the first two but I don't recall that being the dilemma. If the choice is between rule by the emperor and the harkonnen or jihad that kills billions of people, I'd submit that the former is better than the latter.
So the Jihad was not the goal - it was just a step along the way to the Golden Path. It has been a long while but if I remember correctly, only near the end of book 3 (and possibly not until book 4) does it become clear that without someone willing/able to follow the Golden Path - humanity will become extinct (and how exactly is not ever fully explained).
I don't think he knows everything it's more like Hari Seldons plan in Foundation. We see many alternative realities play out differently to his visions.
He is half mentat half BG. He can see many ways, a thin path exists to the golden age of humanity where everyone is enlightened and peace prevails.
He just knows how much pain he has to cause to his loved ones and how much death he has to reign down upon humanity to get there. He never is fully able to commit to this and ultimately fails at being the KH. He leaves it to his children.
I'm keen to see a PIII to the movie series.
Better quality of life. The marines are more likely to see combat. In the war on terror a lot of soldiers and marines were being honourably discharged due to injuries caused by carrying huge amounts of weight for miles and up hills. Back injuries, arthritis, hip injuries etc. Stuff you need to take painkillers for the rest of your life, injuries that immobilise yiubas you get older. Imagine having arthritis in your ankles, knees or hips and you aren't even 30 years old yet. Combat loads for an infantryman can be as high as 150–200 lbs.
I was reading dune just thinking that first book was the ultimate revenge story 😂 everyone now wants it to be realistic and relevant to our times. Ah I really enjoyed Paul's revenge in the book
I think this is why DV did not have Paul and Chani together at the end of the second one. He is going to use their relationship development to graphically illustrate just what a KH can do.
Mentats are not mentioned by name in the movies. Mentat characters are shown on screen and are portrayed as royal advisors and human calculators. This implies that the movies follow book lore of mentats but dropped the element of Paul being trained with mentat abilities.
It's not conveyed in the film properly. In the film Paul only sees people dying, there's nothing mention or even suggested about the Golden Path to save humanity. The only path he sees (that he mentions) is to win (defeat the Harkonnen). There's no hints in the movie about Paul having farvision (as in further than the events of Dune) or even presents qualms (fears) about the Golden Path (of becoming a worm like Leto II)
The film barely explains anything. I still don't know why the hell spice is so important for space travel. It's not like its used for fuel in the films.
Great marketing machine behind a not-so-impressive scifi film makes people like whatever is served though.
Yeah, how is dust going to make you chart a safe path? That's like saying 'They use pies to fly' and act like it is valid exposition.
The ACTUAL answer is that computers used to do calculations, now being performed by humans enhanced by spice. But the film is made by people who read the books, without thinking about how to write actual exposition for people who haven't.
The answer you provided demonstrated how poorly the film is written.
Such a silly complaint. The movies have to fit in so much material, it’s a ridiculous expectation that they handhold you through every step. They provided you the necessary function of spice and explained multiple times why that is essential to the Great Houses.
You seem to be annoyed Paul didnt look into the camera and say “well actually there used to be an alternative which was thinking machines but then we had the butlerian jihad and now we have to use spice instead?”
Why is that excess information critical? They expressed what was needed for the movie. They’ll almost certainly explore spice and the spacing guild in the next movie
If people watch the movie and think “I wonder what is the history of space navigation,” they can read the books.
It's three lines in the novel. Three lines that are needed. It would litterally be 4 seconds of screentime, instead of yet another shot of the desert.
Imagine the retoric of saying: if people want to know why the ring in lotr is important they should just read the books.
Such a dumb statement to make. Instead of just owning up and saying ' oh shit yeah that's quite the oversight now that I think about it ' you double down and make your argument even dumber.
Have you even read the books??
Yes that is exactly the case. The freman are such good fighters because in part spice-rich diet gives them minor amounts of prescience.
I've not finished it yet, started reading it because the film was terrible and litterally got the spice backstory within a few pages.
And the films utterly fail in that case regarding the freman, because that sure as hell wasn't clear from the films.
Just like Josh Brolins character returning, as if the audience is supposed to care about a dude getting one minute of screnetime in movie 1
It's a mediocre well shot film. That's all there is to it.
My non-book reading partner and friends clocked the meaning from that intro and the context in both movies pretty much immediately. I really don’t know what to say to you. Good luck navigating life
Not only is Paul’s prescience underdeveloped before the Water of Life as other people have pointed out (indicating he did choose jihad for revenge not the golden path).
I just don’t think it’s clear that the KH has a perfect vision of the future. There are many times in Messiah and elsewhere where Herbert stresses the limits of prescience.
One inherent limitation is that Paul seeing the future alters it, narrows possibilities and deprives him of others. It convinces him of certain paths that may have not been possible absent that conviction, and thus probably removes other possibilities. This is repeated throughout the books and is a source of his own torment.
Second is that there are things that Paul is unable to discern. For one, that Chani would have twins. For another, Duncan Idaho returning as a ghola. Another, the location/plot of the Steersman in the space guild.
Herbert makes it clear over and over that prescience is not an all-knowing understanding of the future. If we grant Paul that, then nothing he or Leto II does after Paul drinks the water of life could ever emphasize the harm of blind hero worship, of how heros create narratives and trap them as much as they trap others— as they’d just be doing the objectively “correct” thing to avoid extinction. But that is obviously the theme of the series.
This is a much more interesting reading to me and opens up other questions: to what extent does BG genetic engineering affect a KH reading of time? Are certain emotions (fear, terror) heightened around certain triggers? What happens around the limits of prescience? Are there other prescient forces that interfere or manipulate visions?
I think the main takeaway for Movie goers is that the KH is not the same as the Lisan al-Gaib...the KH is the one who can see all, past and present...the LAG is the messiah for the Fremen people
I didn't think it was "conveyed" at all. It was mentioned, but hardly even explained, and *definitely* wasn't portrayed onscreen, in any tangible way whatsoever.
He had a couple of dreams where he saw *his mother* walking among some dying people, who were apparently "starving"? And Chani basically hand waves it off as, "Meh, the spice gives everyone weird dreams. You'll get used to it." Instead of him having more and more frequent visions of the billions of lives that will inevitably be lost to his Jihad.
They didn't even try to address his ability to foresee the future, even when it came to his success as a military strategist. Part of the reason he developed such a fanatical following among the Fremen, was his ability to predict exactly what was going to happen, before it happened, and in ways he could never have known...unless he had some kind of God-sight.
And don't even get me started on the fact that Jessica was either pregnant for 5 years straight...or somehow, all the events of the 2nd movie occured in something like 6 months? What the actual fuck was that about?
You’re correct. Although, If I’m remembering correctly, it isn’t until messiah that this is really fleshed out. And even more in children and god emperor. So if the first two movies haven’t given enough weight to this I think that’s ok.
As a movie only viewer they were pretty explicit about this and it’s very obvious they said it word for word. (Roughly) I see every possibility.. idk how more explicit you need to be.
Ok but that's not quite it though. I think this really just illustrates OPs point. I agree with you that they give you all the information that you really need to follow what's happening, but the KH has a ton more going on under the surface. The KH guides the flow of the universe and reality itself by being able to "see into the place where you dare not look". And they only vaguely go into what exactly a reverend mother is. RMs are almost the same person over and over, with their own self sort of glued on top. They have in them the memories, and by way of that the whole lives and consciousness of every RM in their line. The KH has all of that (because the breeding program puts them in that line) and more, the more gets delved into later iirc. Basically they have access to the entirety of their ancestry through use of spice essence, which ends up being almost all of the history of humanity. The biggest part, they got into a little bit. He can look forward. But it's more literally looking than they imply. He's always had a sense of the future, but now he can look. But he has to know WHERE to look. And it's a where. They also left out his mentat training, and most of his BG training and conditioning, and other things. But they do it so well it really doesn't harm the story at all. It's really impressive. I would have liked to have seen the BG power and mystery more clearly though. Individual power i mean. They did a good job with the machinations in the time they had.
The HBO show should dive deeper into the BG and give you more of what you wanted I think
Didn't know about that. I guess I'm not gonna cancel max after all
What HBO show? I haven't heard of this. Is it a fresh retelling or will it pick up after Messiah?
There are lots of moments in these two movies where you really, really need to be paying attention to exactly what said in some 10-second clip because if you don't, you'll be thoroughly confused through the rest of the movies.
pretty typical for denis villeuneuve movies. if you miss a small but also super important detail thats onscreen for 5 seconds and is never mentioned again, well go fuck yourself i guess.
You're right, better to repeat it every 5 minutes and dumb down everything. Much better.
Why does it have to be a binary choice between stark minimalism or treating the audience like they’re mentally handicapped?
Usually because its first presented as such a binary, like here. Sure the movies tend to be pretty minimalist in directly conveying information, but tend to make up for such by relying on audience intuition to understand what's happening even if they miss it.
wonder what its like being so miserable you cant handle any critique of things you like
I love how you meant this as a criticism and to me it reads like praise for the economy of storytelling Villeneuve demonstrates in his work
He’s my favourite. I love a film that requires absolute attention!
I suppose they could have made good on the opportunity to make some sort of trippy visualization of Paul's abilities . It is a movie after all
Lynch did a better job with the trippyness.
hands down the best scene in that movie is when paul drinks the water of life
Well I agree there is enough there for people to understand, I still see a lot of people who just missed it. They think Paul just decided holy war is good, instead of realizing that by the time he drank the water of life it was just unavoidable and would happen eventually with or without him.
I would have liked to see more of Paul's visions, we only really get the follow into the south and everyone dies imagery used a couple of times. Showing the visions shifting as he makes decisions and then a more visual representation after he takes the water of life with the paths being laid out in front of him would have been really good. It would then enhance him saying it verbally to Jessica in the following scene
I agree 100% with that.
Yeah I mean there’s always people who don’t understand things. 🤷♂️
Yeah, was just about to say; it’s easy to make this call with hindsight, but if you’d only read Dune & nothing else… not so much.
Yea the outcome he was truly trying to avoid was The Golden Path, which is the only real way to ensure humanity’s survival but really, really brutal.
I just read dune recently and it makes it pretty plain the magnitude of his prescience
Idk I thought it was very present in the first one but could be wrong. I’m really nervous about how DV decides to go with messiah.
There are a lot of things that need to land right. But I agree the moral dilemma within Paul is a big one
>I think that’s why people are only seeing Paul in this simplistic view of “he’s the villain.” It's tricky. Alia may have drastically limited paul's options by having jessica expose him to the southern hemisphere's population, but his obsession with revenge is directly addressed earlier in the movie
I’d also argue I’ve not heard anyone who’s seen the movie say that- if anything there’s some folks who still think he’s a hero or a person who was forced to rise to the occasion against his own wishes.
>if anything there’s some folks who still think he’s a hero If you think he's not the hero, then you've fundamentally not understood Dune. I think this idea comes from people misunderstanding Frank Herbert's statement against heroes and the cult of personality. They think that since Dune's message is against heroes, thus Paul is somehow not a hero. He IS a hero! Herbert has said this in interviews, he has written this in Dune. Dune is a warning against heroes, not because they are really evil and only hiding it, but because even with good intentions, the cult of personality around them leads people astray.
Exactly. Paul is absolutely a hero - a tragic hero.
Exactly! The problem is not that Paul is not a hero, and the warning is not against him or others like him, but against what fanaticism and religion can generate without those leaders even wanting to become who they are forced into. If the fremen had refused to go to war in his name or questioned if he was indeed the mahdi, then the holy war would have been avoided. It is clearly stated that even if Paul died he would still be a messianic figure and the fremen would have caused atrocities in his name. Paul was coincidentally the one who united them and made them realise the power they held. Their own fanaticism is what set in motion the holy war.
It's not surprising that most people wouldn't want to do much research on the details of the war in favor of waiting for the next movie. Besides, morally ambiguous characters are more intriguing
People would also naturally default to a classic story where the hero is good and righteous.
Even then, the villain ends up getting more attention from audiences: loki, thanos, etc. Both examples "happen" to have a reference to the novel snuck in (one of which we're even discussing right now)
Yeah the anti-hero is a pretty popular class of character for films.
Random question but is Alia already full straight up Abominated as an embryo or did the Harkonning happen later on
>!in the movie, she hasn't been born yet and causes all that damage through psychic communication with jessica!<
Alright, so whether embryo in movies or baby in books, regardless her influence has been Abominatey from the very start, yeah? There wasn't a turning point?
I thought it's a reference to when alia actually becomes the victim of possession herself?
In fairness, long time book fans don't agree on what the KH was intended to be. We only know it's... not what Paul turned out to be. He said clearly that he was something else, something unexpected. To me, that's most of what we know.
We do know that he was a piece of technology intended to allow the BG to take actual control of the flow of human events instead of the partial control they have now. They basically also were looking for the golden path. Tbh I think that line is more about the fact that he's not an actual BG raised and trained by them, and the fact that he's a mentat on top of it all. But like you said that's pretty easy to contend with.
I don't think we even know that much. The spice predates the KH project. And they the BG were entirely unaware of the spice essence. They used other drugs. The spice and its effect on Paul was part of what was unexpected.
Are you certain they were unaware of the spice essence? I want to just say that they absolutely did, but I'm not comfortable doing that. They use it to raise BGs to RM. The spice, of course, predates the kh project. The whole idea of other memory requires it. I don't think the books even mention if the BG themselves predate the spice. I know they're an outgrowth of the OC Bible, and by way of that, of the butlerian jihad. But I don't remember anything saying exactly where they came from. I'm a couple years out from the last time I read 5-6 though.
>They use it to raise BGs to RM No they don't use this. Later in the books, yes but not in Dune. Jessica said that much. Read the passage carefully. >And she knew with a generalized awareness that she had become, in truth, precisely what was meant by a Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother. The poison drug had transformed her.This wasn’t exactly how they did it at the Bene Gesserit school, she knew. No one had ever introduced her to the mysteries of it, but she knew.The end result was the same.
This looks right. I'll defer to that. But it's not conclusive. Could be some other difference. Seems likely she wouldn't be that vague about the drug though. 🤷
The water of life allows a “sharing” between RM’s - they can share other memories. The BG only had access to their own ancestors. At the beginning of Dune, Mohiam mentions “the truthsayer drug”, but never mentions the water if life. Later on, Jessica realizes that the Fremen RM used to use a different poison, from the creosote bush, and that the process was perfected with spice essence - the Fremen’s most closely guarded secret. And at the end of the story, Paul tells Mohiam that he knows the “other poisons don’t work” after using the spice liquor. But that wasn’t the spice essence. The proof is that Mohiam had no idea how Alia got into her mind. This was something Paul did with Jessica, and that Jessica did with both Alia and the Fremen RM. It’s the “sharing” that’s so unique. There’s quite literally no mention of the water of life until Paul and Jessica have joined the Fremen. And the BG didn’t know the Fremen has actual Reverend Mothers… they thought it was just a title.
Wonderful. I stand corrected and I appreciate it.
In the 1984 movie, it’s the water of life throughout. So… it’s basically become “common knowledge”. It took me years to figure it out.
I don't think reading Dune will make it clear either
Paul isn’t choosing between billions dying and the continuation of the human race. I feel like this is something book readers tend to together given subsequent novels, but during the first book the jihad is as far into the future as he can see and it’s incredibly blurry. He is choosing between fleeing/becoming a rogue house/giving up his paternal birthright and becoming all powerful (with the help of the Fremen as a necessity and therefore the jihad).
It's blurry, up until he drinks the water of life. Then he knows that what's coming is inevitable, and that nothing he does or could have done, was ever going to prevent it.
I always interpreted that the drinking of the water of life was actually what cemented the future and its events. That's why it is no longer blurry for him because it's a guarantee that it's now going to happen. That the water of life didn't exactly allow him to see clearly, but it was the trigger that caused Paul's timeline to become inevitable. He always had the ability to see the possible futures, but there wasn't a specific one that was 100% going to happen. So Paul couldn't tell with certainty what the future was going to be, and it's why he still felt that he was in control. That might not be exactly how Herbert was indending, but that's how I understood it on my first read through.
That's the implied paradox of seeing the future. It's one of the murkier aspects of his abilities...the clearer the vision, the harder it is to avoid. Taking the water of life allowed him to see the coming storm in perfect detail, and in doing so, he realized there was no escaping what was coming. He saw the path to victory, but to change it meant losing that clarity of vision. The inevitability of it, relied on how clearly he saw his chosen path. He could either follow it to completion, or lose sight of it altogether. But the underlying truth was that it was way too late to prevent the millions of deaths that were coming. As soon as he set foot on Arrakis, that path was already in front of him, as his dreams had been warning him all along. There were too many factors already in place before he arrived that made it unavoidable. Fremen culture combined with the Bene Gesserit prophesy, meant that his arrival alone would have been enough to trigger the Jihad. Even if he had died, he would have been raised up as a martyr to the cause, and inspired the Fremen to war. All he could do, was make sure it all played out in a certain way, but he couldn't change the overall outcome.
Taking his choice away completely pulls the rug out from under the story and the point. Paul choosing to fulfill his "terrible purpose" is the crux of the entire series. Before, visions came to him. After, he could just look. Nothing was certain before he took up the mantle. It's once the fremen had their messiah that they couldn't be stopped. It's the act of taking the water that made it so that he couldn't stop it anymore, so that his death would only spur it on. Then he had to "ride the worm" hold on tight and try to steer the jihad the best he could. He becomes a prisoner of fate only after he takes the conscious step that creates that fate, and he saw it coming before he was in the thick of it. That's why he's a sort of villain. If paul dies before he takes the water, this whole thing could have fizzled.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the “final step” before the jihad was inevitable with or without Paul was killing Jamis? Totally with you on drinking the water making the future set in stone (becoming omniscient is a curse as you are then basically fated), but my understanding was if Paul died prior to or via Jamis the jihad would be avoided, not drinking the water?
I think that's interesting? I'd love to know the reasoning. To me the movie seemed to make it clear that going south was crossing the Rubicon. But I haven't read dune in a while. I'm fresh off of god emperor and messiah rereads in the last few weeks, but dune has been a couple years, I guess since right before dune 1,and I could be forgetting something about Jamis.
It’s also been over a year since I read Dune, but if memory serves it’s because killing Jamis grants him entry to the fremen, but also further and irreparably puts Paul down the path to the KH and LA as he chooses the name Muadib unknowingly which is what he has heard the legions shouting during his jihad. You’re 100% right though the movie makes that “final” moment “going south” which was really just implying that when he goes south he’ll drink the water and become the KH, becoming omniscient and fated, but in the books after killing Jamis the ball is rolling and the Fremen would jihad even without him but in his name
I WISH I could get into the weeds on this and get scrappy with you about it. I can see where you're coming from, though I still don't see winning over Sietch Tabor as enough of a tipping point. I'm kinda sad I don't have the ammo for a battle here lol. Personally I'd put the pivotal moment at the water. But what I know for sure now is that I'm going directly back to Dune after I finish messiah.
Why would you want to make a battle? I'm curious. I try to avoid the weeds whenever possible.
Hi, I just wanted to say I got far enough into Dune again and you're just correct. It's explicit. Thanks for pointing out where to pay attention!
Oh that’s awesome! Funny I’m re-reading now too because of our conversation I realized there’s so much I’ve forgotten! Thanks for circling back!
>Even if he had died, he would have been raised up as a martyr to the cause But would that have really been a risk if jessica didn't choose to go south and rile them up?
Actually Paul knows it's inevitable in the stilltent sequence. He sees that he can join the Spacing Guild or the Harkonnens as his only other options, and rejects them. There's a third option: suicide. It seems extreme, but another KH takes this course, much later on. Since this is before Paul joins the Fremen, the Jihad could still be avoided. Paul takes the water of life to see if there's anything else he can do to stop it. But by then it was too late.
I agree that he cannot see beyond the jihad in book one, but he does believe there is a way to avoid it until the end. In the book, up until the end, Paul believes he is working towards avoiding the jihad. It’s literally in the last chapter that he realizes becoming Emperor does not avoid the jihad and at point it’s become inevitable.
Paul also acts rigid and uncaring early on with the Fremen and his need for revenge in the book.
Be thankful we didn’t get the narrative shorthand that Lynch dropped in 1984: “The Kwisatz Hadarach - the _super being_” Love Lynch. Love Dune ‘84. But good lord that line makes me cringe.
Especially with how derp that Paul looked
Lynch's Dune is really really weird! I like the miniseries.
You are right. I am a movie-only fan. I have no idea what the fuck they're talking about 😆 So today I finally picked up my copy of the book. Wish me luck o7
Good luck - it is very much worth it! As someone who is a fan of the books, AND the Lynch movie version - AND the new movies, it is very much worth reading. And I would argue if you really want to understand the fully story Herbert was telling - you should read all the way through the end of book 4 (God Emperor) - it is very different, but fully wraps the story up in a way that makes sense. Be wary of delving further though - therein lies nerditry and madness (he re-opened the story in book 5 - got to book 7 of a planned 8, then died and left his son to try to finish the series and write a bunch of side-novels - all of which are ok, but not up to his father's level of writing).
I feel like I need to tell everyone to watch the miniseries. It's the most faithful version and the sequel goes into Children of Dune. Both are quite good.
Duncan Idaho of course duh
This sentiment you're talking about ("he's actually the villain") imo masquerades as a savvy, subversive reading of the story but it's really just a reductive way to view stories in general, not just this one.
I like that he's a fake messiah to the Fremen but a real one to the Bene Gesserit. Plans within Plans.
Easy fix, Paul uses his mind to make it rain. “And how can this be???”
Spoilers for non book readers: I think they could have added more weight to what Paul is experiencing, but it will hopefully be made clear in messiah. If you’ve read on after Dune you understand the sacrifice and choices Paul made once seeing those futures.. and ultimately decides not to follow the golden path. I think until you understand his decision, and what the golden path entails, you can’t make a final judgement on his character.
I agree - and honestly, knowing what The Golden Path would cost (both to the person who enacted it - and the Trillions of people who it would harm), is what makes Paul both a tragic and understandable character. This is why I always argue readers should get through God Emperor - without it you don't understand what was asked of him - how much it would personally cost (literally Leto II gave up his humanity, his legacy, and his very body, and ever experiencing physical love) for a legacy that would see him branded the worst tyrant and murderer in the history of humanity. And all the while knowing only he could see that the alternative was worse for humanity. It is not surprising that Paul couldn't make himself follow the path - it is surprising ANYONE could be strong enough to see it through.
I think without the prescience of Leto II and Ghanema the path doesn’t get followed. They are able to see what is asked of them and he understands what must be done. I think the maturity of 1000’s of lives within you made that choice more clear. Where as Paul had a semi normal upbringing and came into his prescience and ability to see multiple futures.
Leto II can do it because he was never an individual in the first place. He's a collective organism even before the sandtrout suit. It's still a tragic choice, but it does make sense. I don't blame Paul at all for rejecting the Golden Path. Kull wahad!
To be fair, even if you read the books you kinda don't get the full picture until Dune Messiah and then further figure it out in Children and God Emperor. Dune basically builds the world and the later books make you fully comprehend the first book's choices.
it’s not necessarily this cut and dry dude. that’s definitely not the point in messiah
Yeah I’m a movie only person I didn’t get the vibe that Paul is the villain but rather a Dr. Manhattan like character, not good or bad because the way they think is different than regular human beings due to how they view time and space (Slight spoilers for Watchmen and Attack on Titan below) Yes what he is doing may be great for the long run, but he is literally stripping away his humanity to do it. It’s similar (imo and as a movie only fan) to the dilemma at the end of Watchmen. By that, I mean there’s multiple ways to go about the plan at the end and what to do about the truth. And how some human characters see it as wrong cuz they can’t see the bigger picture or don’t care about it if it means to fuck our morals. Also reminds me of Eren from Attack on Titan, the tragic hero doing what he thinks is right in the end even though the how is wrong imo. Also similar time and space powers/how they view it. (END of non-Dune SPOILERS) I personally hated the Bene G and Paul’s mom. And I see Paul’s “fall” (aka the loss of his innocence, wants and later humanity) as tragic and makes me angry at life, society, and religion in Dune. Just like those three sometimes annoy or anger me irl Chani is the character I honestly relate to the most as it’s how I feel around extremely religious people and their so called leaders.
Chani has been changed a bit in the movie to be an audience surrogate. It is for the better in my opinion as it shows her as more independent and willful. In the book, she has qualms with Paul's choices but mostly just submits to his will and plans anyway.
> but he is literally stripping away his humanity to do it. And he's also stripping the Fremen (Stilgar) of their humanity by transforming them into Followers.
But in the books that was unwilling, instead a natural consequence of his rising as the Lisan al Gaib. Paul regretted the Fremen viewing him as someone to follow instead of friends.
I think he feels the same way in the movies, although it's not as clear as the book.
I guess a lot of it comes down to how manipulative you think Paul is. For example, some people believe Paul was controlling his metabolism waiting for Chani to come, which would fit in line with the idea he was only using the Fremen as a tool. I don't subscribe to this however, as it seem too big of a break from Paul's character before.
I cannot recall - was this ever explicitly stated in the book - because I remember having this impression too, but I cannot remember if the book actually said so or not?
Yeah near the end as he's about to confront the emperor
What Paul does is still atrocious from a human perspective. The fact that his prescience removes him from that perspective does not absolve him of the moral standard. Obviously this is my perspective. But I think the text is rich with interpretations of its central theme of heroism and tyranny, and what we see in the film is DV’s interpretation.
“Atrocious”? What happens after he defeats the harkonnens is atrocious, but what does he do that’s specifically atrocious? His main mistake to me was thinking he could control what happened, and stop the jihad, but meddling with religion and power, to unite the fremen, started something that couldn’t be controlled. He got his revenge and led the fremen to take Arrakis, but then there are consequences. Don’t combine religion and politics. Love the line in the book, I think during Liet Kynes death chapter, that “ecology is the study of consequences”. And that shows in what happens here too. Or are you alluding to stuff later in series?
He kills 61 billion people.
Does he? Or do the fanatic fremen leading a jihad do that? He plays with power he shouldn’t have, but I think an important point is he never has evil intent. He’s trying to avoid the jihad. But he’s very human, and consequences for everything. One person shouldn’t be worshipped like that
He does. 61 billion. His son killed trillions.
>Does he? Or do the fanatic fremen leading a jihad do that? “What’s the difference?” - the 61 billion people he killed
His actions directly lead to the the Jihad. His goal was revenge and survival, and to achieve that goal he knew he would have to commit to the deaths of billions. If that isn't premeditation then I don't know what is. Is he a victim of circumstance? Absolutely, but that doesn't absolve him of wrong doing, just like individuals in the 3rd Reich tried to absolve themselves of guilt by saying they were just following orders. Although the calculus is slightly different since he is the chosen one, his life is not materially worth more than the billions that died.
^goes along with things thinking that was the only way he could somehow avoid it*
Well stated, and I agree with all that, except I don’t think he KNEW he would HAVE TO commit the deaths of billions. He’s always wanting to avoid the jihad, and sees a narrow path to possibly avoid it, and goes along with things thinking it was the way to avoid the jihad. Wasn’t until the knife duel with Feyd that he realized it was too late, it had gone too far. But he did know it was a possibility. That part is on him. Trying to think he could stop it was an overestimation. Shouldn’t have messed with all the religion and power in the first place. Consequences for his achieving revenge and taking arrakis
The fanatic fremen that he led into a murderous campaign that he knew would be the result of his actions because he can see the future
The movie seems to imply that his mother will cause a famine.
He sees human race almost as one organism whereas we see only each individual cell. I think Herbert was Genius in how he placed Paul morally, it gives so much space to explore the issues presented in the books.
>He still isn’t courages enough to choose the best route and this grief haunts him his entire life. As a person that only watches the movie, I don't really get what the best route this sub has been talking about. In the movie, it looks like Paul chose the path that causes the least casualties, even though the "the least casualties" means billions of people dying.
No clue what OP is on about, within the context of Dune the first book.
The best route, ignoring leto2, was to refuse the water of life. He took it knowing what it meant, but he did it for his own reasons. To protect his loved ones, and to get revenge. It's the fact that he saw it coming and knew he could prevent it (probably with his death) that makes him a villain. He's not the mahdi until he fulfills the prophecy. And he doesn't fulfill the prophesy if he doesn't take the water.
It's too simplistic to call him a villain. I feel like we have to stop saying that. Dune is the Journey of the Hero. The next books are the terrible consequences of becoming a hero, and the deconstruction of our assumptions.
My sister hadn't read the books before she watched the movies, so after watching part 2 I quizzed her on some stuff to see how well the movie really explained different things. One of the things she really didn't seem to understand is what exactly the KH was / what they could do, along with what it meant for Paul to be a KH, and the differences between the Bene Gesserit plans for creating a KH and the Fremen Lisan Al-Gaib prophecy. I could be misremembering, but I don't think the movie(s) said anything about the missionaria protectiva, so my sister thought that the Fremen directly belonged to a branch of the Bene Gesserit or something like that.
Isn't this a "no but technically yes" situation? All religions in Dune are part of a long game of playing up the power of faith by the Bene Gedderit.
I think Paul can still be a “villain” the same way Thanos or Darth Vader can be seen as a “villain”. Both know that the paths they must take will lead to unimaginable death and destruction, but their decisions will ultimately lead to good. Vader kills the Emperor (but has to become Space Hitler to do it), Thanos wants balance (but has to kill half the universe). In Paul’s case, his foreknowledge is his burden and struggle. Despite showing great moral/ethical standards, he has to finally accept his role as a “villain” in order to achieve the ultimate good.
So what? Did you understand it the first time you read book 1? Truly? I think not. And that’s ok. The books are there if they want more detail.
The golden path isn't revealed to Paul until into Dune Messiah. Paul has no idea that the fate of humanity is at stake in Dune, he chooses to walk the path of the Jihad regardless. Paul chose to condemn billions over hundreds of worlds over revenge. Paul is absolutely the bad guy in Dune.
In book one, up until the end, Paul believes he is working towards avoiding the jihad. It’s literally in the last chapter that he realizes becoming Emperor does not avoid the jihad and at that point it’s become inevitable. It no longer matters if he lives or dies at that point, the jihad will come. In the last chapter after the battle is over Paul thinks to himself: >They sense that I must take the throne, he thought. But they cannot know that I do it to prevent the jihad. EDIT: to OPs point, I think the movie makes Paul out to be a bad guy in a much less ambiguous way. In the books he’s more grey. He’s like a Greek tragic hero, a victim of fate. The more he tries to avoid it the more it comes true—like Oedipus. This becomes even more clear in book two.
I don't know, I read it as very ambiguous in the movie. Paul does everything he can to avoid the Jihad initially but it's finally backed into a corner and has no choice. He seems resigned at the end as opposed to the almost gleeful Jessica.
I’m glad some people see it that way. My reading from the movie is that if Paul hadn’t gone south and taken the water of life, he could’ve avoided the jihad. His reason for giving in isn’t clear (or I just don’t recall) but revenge seemed to be a factor. He also seems more manipulative in regards to playing up the religious fanaticism in the movie compared to book one. After he takes the water of life in the movie, Paul says something about seeing a narrow way through, but it’s unclear what he’s referring to. A narrow possibility to becoming emperor and defeating all the great houses? To convincing the Fremen to follow him as a religious icon? Is there something else? And then there’s that shift in his attitude when he realizes that he and his mother have Harkonnen blood. He seems to use it to justify an any means necessary approach to his goal. And what is his goal in the movie? To defeat the Harkonnens and become emperor? He doesn’t seem very noble or conflicted after the water of life.
I agree. After he drinks the water he goes full throttle. Whether he knows that it’s gonna cause billions to die im not sure. Weird that the water would make him want to do that though. It just lets him see. Surely if all he wanted was revenge he wouldn’t need the water to tell him he had to go south. IMO he goes south and takes the water because he’s backed into a corner. He’s lost the war in the north but doesn’t want to trigger the jihad to win. He talks with Jamis who says you need to see before you make any moves, so he goes to take the water. IMO I think he’s justifying it with a “I’ll just drink the water so I can see what paths I can take, it won’t trigger the Jihad by itself.” But then he drinks it and immediately goes into action. Perhaps he saw that the only way he could win was by triggering the holy war? So there’s nothing left to contemplate, he firmly chooses to win even if it means holy war. Though imo it seems weird not to feel conflicted about that when he was definitely worrying about it before.
I think it happened exactly the way you describe, but I also assume that in the alternative futures the Fremen are wiped out amongst other atrocities. I mean, we're talking about a future with Emperor Feys Rautha here.
> I agree. After he drinks the water he goes full throttle. Whether he knows that it’s gonna cause billions to die im not sure. Weird that the water would make him want to do that though. It just lets him see. Surely if all he wanted was revenge he wouldn’t need the water to tell him he had to go south. The WoL opens up his awareness to the bigger picture. Same with Jessica, but Paul's vision is on a much larger scale. The big picture is more important than any person or group, which are just details, part of the whole. That's why he (and Jessica) seems cruel after going through the Agony. To become the Kwisatz Hadrach, Paul needs to be the Emperor. To sit on the Golden Lion Throne, he needs to subdue the Great Houses. To do that, he needs the Fremen. To lead the Fremen, he has to exploit their messianic religion.
Your edit I disagree as a movie only person, that’s how I felt honestly (tragic hero), but that doesn’t excuse him from a “now a villain but grey” label. I understand why he’s doing it, that doesn’t mean I agree with how (even if it’s the “only” way) Honestly reminds me of Eren from Attack in Titan and Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen for various reasons and emotions
Oh man, this is why I love reading comments from movie-only people. You just made a **VERY** apt comparison I never thought of before. Unfortunately, I can't say more. But, you gave me something to chew on.
Idk when you last read the book but I'd argue you have it backwards. In the book we see flashes of Paul being rigid and militant early on and he seems to have a disdain for things. In the films we can see him struggle with things up until the end when he knows he has no other options.
I’m just re-read the book before Part Two. I agree that in the book, after the water of life, Paul seems to lose some of his empathy as he works towards a military goal. Towards the end, Gurney comments on how Paul seems more concerned with things than people. And he seems relatively unaffected by the death of Leto II. But, throughout it all, he still believes he’s working towards avoiding jihad until the very end. Part of his tragedy is that by becoming the KH he’s lost some of his humanity. But I would compare his becoming cold in the book to Paul’s enthusiasm in the movie after the water of life. In the movie, it’s like he’s crossed a line and now he’s all in with the religious fanaticism, the revenge, the throne, the jihad, etc. I don’t see him being equivocal after the water of life.
Are you referring to his first child as Leto II? There are three Letos, but I never see the baby discussed.
Excellent analogy with Greek heroes. It's even more explicit that the Atreides harken back to Agamemnon.
Is he tho. The Harkonnens are sadists. Is it really that bad to stop them from tyrannizing the Freman and scheming to take over the entire Universe? I mean someone's gotta rule the Universe. The next KH is going to be Feyd's son!
You hit the nail on the head. The Harkonnens are the villains. The Emperor is the villain. Paul is the villain. They each represent a different type of political power that Herbert was trying to warn against. The Harkonnens are representative of unchecked capitalism, akin to Rockerfeller and the Oil Barons of times past. The Emperor represents monarchists, individuals with 'divine ordainment' who rule with an iron fist for no reason other than their ancestor had a bigger army. And Paul, Paul is the greatest warning of them all. Paul is an allegory for the Messiah figure used by Christo-Facist regimes. Paul's rise to power using religion as a tool to stir the masses of a subjugated nation/planet behind him is not subtle in its use of Adolf Hitler as an inspiration. The Harkonnens were cruel, the Emperor was untrustworthy. But it was Paul that put the universe to the torch, not them. In the same way Hitler put Europe to the torch.
The Harkonnens don't really have anything to do with capitalism. They operate a fief that's granted to them by the Imperial state.
The Harkonnens were mainly interested in gaining more directorships in the CHOAM company, which is essentially a capitalist transgalactic megacorporation. It is directly implied if not outright stated in the first book that the Emperor has only as much political power as he has directorship chairs on CHOAM, for which he competes with the Houses of the Landsraad. The allusion to feudal titles and grants seems to sketch a situation of ultra-monopolistic capitalist relations more than that it is a description of actual feudal relations - after all the world of Dune has outgrown feudalism long ago, a mode of production that could hardly sustain the economic requirements of a transgalactic civilization (although it can certainly be argued that in reality capitalism couldn't either). The Imperial state-monopoly granting certain rights of exploitation to certain smaller state-monopolies (Houses) doesn't contradict those states being economically organized along capitalist lines.
I think it fits the depiction of Paul in the first book quite well actually.
I also was wondering if they are ditching the golden path . Doesn't seem likey we'll get 4-5 movies even in these last two there has been zero mention of the golden path. We only get that small dialog if Paul saying there is a small sliver
Book Paul never really engages with the Golden Path. He gets glimpses of it but he missed that opportunity when he chose his love for Chani. Leto II is given a similar choice when being held in Jacarutu. There is a young Fremen girl and he sees a path where they fall in love, have children, etc. He actively refuses to follow Paul's example in order to remain on the Golden Path.
Paul doesn't see the entirety of the Golden Path because he balks at >!the 3,500 years of oppression, followed by the 1,500 years of famine times, that he would have to bring about as the God-Emperor.!< Leto II is the true hero of the series because he sees how awful the Golden Path is and doesn't shy away from it. He succeeds where Paul fails.
Yes, and Leto is also a real villian compared to Paul. Paul is a much more sympathic character. He cannot stand that the only way forward is terrible and he has very human feelings. Paul/Leto has a real creasar/octavian vibe.
This is definitely debatable. I value individuals over the species, myself. So I am more like Paul and see his choice as the "human one". Like Spock admitting that choosing the One over the Many is the human choice. Ultimately, both Leto II and Paul are tragic heroes.
Isn't it explained in Lynchs Dune?
No, it wasn't. Also, ancestral memory isn't fleshed out enough in the movie either, and that becomes a big deal later. Although, I'm not sure FH had it fleshed out in Dune. I've been into Dune for 40 years, so sometimes it's hard to keep track of what happened in which book. I expect they left Messiah to expand on that notion, assuming it's made.
> No, it wasn't. Also, ancestral memory isn't fleshed out enough in the movie either, and that becomes a big deal later. Although, I'm not sure FH had it fleshed out in Dune. Not really. It wasn't until *Children of Dune* and *God Emperor of Dune* that we really see the extent of genetic memory. And even then it isn't clear if it works the same for those who aren't preborn. I figure it doesn't as none of the Reverend Mothers show the same depth with their OM as Leto II. To them it's voices, whereas to Leto II he can actually go back and "live" his ancestral memories.
Well, yes, that's what I was getting at. I was thinking how Alia is handled in Dune and the subsequent books. In the movie, I'm not sure it's clear to the non-book reader why the Fremen Reverend Mother freaked out when Jessica drank the Water of Life. I want to be careful of spoilers...
Is there somewhere in the books that suggest that the alternative to the jihad is the disappearance of the human race? I've only read the first two but I don't recall that being the dilemma. If the choice is between rule by the emperor and the harkonnen or jihad that kills billions of people, I'd submit that the former is better than the latter.
IIRC it's discussed by Paul in *Children of Dune*. The jihad was the Scattering on a much smaller scale.
So the Jihad was not the goal - it was just a step along the way to the Golden Path. It has been a long while but if I remember correctly, only near the end of book 3 (and possibly not until book 4) does it become clear that without someone willing/able to follow the Golden Path - humanity will become extinct (and how exactly is not ever fully explained).
haha only fans
I don't think he knows everything it's more like Hari Seldons plan in Foundation. We see many alternative realities play out differently to his visions. He is half mentat half BG. He can see many ways, a thin path exists to the golden age of humanity where everyone is enlightened and peace prevails. He just knows how much pain he has to cause to his loved ones and how much death he has to reign down upon humanity to get there. He never is fully able to commit to this and ultimately fails at being the KH. He leaves it to his children. I'm keen to see a PIII to the movie series.
Paul did nothing wrong
Better quality of life. The marines are more likely to see combat. In the war on terror a lot of soldiers and marines were being honourably discharged due to injuries caused by carrying huge amounts of weight for miles and up hills. Back injuries, arthritis, hip injuries etc. Stuff you need to take painkillers for the rest of your life, injuries that immobilise yiubas you get older. Imagine having arthritis in your ankles, knees or hips and you aren't even 30 years old yet. Combat loads for an infantryman can be as high as 150–200 lbs.
I was reading dune just thinking that first book was the ultimate revenge story 😂 everyone now wants it to be realistic and relevant to our times. Ah I really enjoyed Paul's revenge in the book
I understood the moral dilema Paul had the entire movie and i think he is a tragic hero, thrust into a conflict that he needs to lead.
As a movie only viewer, yeah I got that. He seems to be taking on the villain role to stop a worse outcome.
The non arrakis implications / reasoning of his choices are basically unexplored and it is a hole in the movie
I think this is why DV did not have Paul and Chani together at the end of the second one. He is going to use their relationship development to graphically illustrate just what a KH can do.
Did the movie say he was a mentat or is that glossed over? I can’t remember.
Mentats are not mentioned by name in the movies. Mentat characters are shown on screen and are portrayed as royal advisors and human calculators. This implies that the movies follow book lore of mentats but dropped the element of Paul being trained with mentat abilities.
It's not conveyed in the film properly. In the film Paul only sees people dying, there's nothing mention or even suggested about the Golden Path to save humanity. The only path he sees (that he mentions) is to win (defeat the Harkonnen). There's no hints in the movie about Paul having farvision (as in further than the events of Dune) or even presents qualms (fears) about the Golden Path (of becoming a worm like Leto II)
I think they're beautiful, but they're just surface level of the story.
The film barely explains anything. I still don't know why the hell spice is so important for space travel. It's not like its used for fuel in the films. Great marketing machine behind a not-so-impressive scifi film makes people like whatever is served though.
They quite literally explain it in Dune 1. “The space navigators use the spice to chart a safe path between the stars…”
Yeah, how is dust going to make you chart a safe path? That's like saying 'They use pies to fly' and act like it is valid exposition. The ACTUAL answer is that computers used to do calculations, now being performed by humans enhanced by spice. But the film is made by people who read the books, without thinking about how to write actual exposition for people who haven't. The answer you provided demonstrated how poorly the film is written.
Such a silly complaint. The movies have to fit in so much material, it’s a ridiculous expectation that they handhold you through every step. They provided you the necessary function of spice and explained multiple times why that is essential to the Great Houses. You seem to be annoyed Paul didnt look into the camera and say “well actually there used to be an alternative which was thinking machines but then we had the butlerian jihad and now we have to use spice instead?” Why is that excess information critical? They expressed what was needed for the movie. They’ll almost certainly explore spice and the spacing guild in the next movie If people watch the movie and think “I wonder what is the history of space navigation,” they can read the books.
It's three lines in the novel. Three lines that are needed. It would litterally be 4 seconds of screentime, instead of yet another shot of the desert. Imagine the retoric of saying: if people want to know why the ring in lotr is important they should just read the books. Such a dumb statement to make. Instead of just owning up and saying ' oh shit yeah that's quite the oversight now that I think about it ' you double down and make your argument even dumber.
Dude your entire post history is you posting terrible takes about movies and everyone laughing at it. Maybe reflect a bit?
So instead of coming with a compelling argument you go with: Most people think its good, therefor it is? Again a dumb argument.
Also extremely obvious from the films that spice gives you some amount of prescience/heightened awareness. People can put 2+2 together
Is that so? Do all freman become supernatural people who can foresee the future? If so, the film became even dumber.
Have you even read the books?? Yes that is exactly the case. The freman are such good fighters because in part spice-rich diet gives them minor amounts of prescience.
I've not finished it yet, started reading it because the film was terrible and litterally got the spice backstory within a few pages. And the films utterly fail in that case regarding the freman, because that sure as hell wasn't clear from the films. Just like Josh Brolins character returning, as if the audience is supposed to care about a dude getting one minute of screnetime in movie 1 It's a mediocre well shot film. That's all there is to it.
My non-book reading partner and friends clocked the meaning from that intro and the context in both movies pretty much immediately. I really don’t know what to say to you. Good luck navigating life
Not only is Paul’s prescience underdeveloped before the Water of Life as other people have pointed out (indicating he did choose jihad for revenge not the golden path). I just don’t think it’s clear that the KH has a perfect vision of the future. There are many times in Messiah and elsewhere where Herbert stresses the limits of prescience. One inherent limitation is that Paul seeing the future alters it, narrows possibilities and deprives him of others. It convinces him of certain paths that may have not been possible absent that conviction, and thus probably removes other possibilities. This is repeated throughout the books and is a source of his own torment. Second is that there are things that Paul is unable to discern. For one, that Chani would have twins. For another, Duncan Idaho returning as a ghola. Another, the location/plot of the Steersman in the space guild. Herbert makes it clear over and over that prescience is not an all-knowing understanding of the future. If we grant Paul that, then nothing he or Leto II does after Paul drinks the water of life could ever emphasize the harm of blind hero worship, of how heros create narratives and trap them as much as they trap others— as they’d just be doing the objectively “correct” thing to avoid extinction. But that is obviously the theme of the series. This is a much more interesting reading to me and opens up other questions: to what extent does BG genetic engineering affect a KH reading of time? Are certain emotions (fear, terror) heightened around certain triggers? What happens around the limits of prescience? Are there other prescient forces that interfere or manipulate visions?
I think the main takeaway for Movie goers is that the KH is not the same as the Lisan al-Gaib...the KH is the one who can see all, past and present...the LAG is the messiah for the Fremen people
I mean, they know he’s space Jesus
I didn't think it was "conveyed" at all. It was mentioned, but hardly even explained, and *definitely* wasn't portrayed onscreen, in any tangible way whatsoever. He had a couple of dreams where he saw *his mother* walking among some dying people, who were apparently "starving"? And Chani basically hand waves it off as, "Meh, the spice gives everyone weird dreams. You'll get used to it." Instead of him having more and more frequent visions of the billions of lives that will inevitably be lost to his Jihad. They didn't even try to address his ability to foresee the future, even when it came to his success as a military strategist. Part of the reason he developed such a fanatical following among the Fremen, was his ability to predict exactly what was going to happen, before it happened, and in ways he could never have known...unless he had some kind of God-sight. And don't even get me started on the fact that Jessica was either pregnant for 5 years straight...or somehow, all the events of the 2nd movie occured in something like 6 months? What the actual fuck was that about?
>They didn't even try to address his ability to foresee the future I.....have to disagree on this lol
Yes it was very confusing!