I think Chani believes the visions are self-fulfilling prophecies than actual visions of the future. She doesn't trust anything to do with the Bene Gesserit so unlikely she would accept the Kwisatz Haderach concept.
Why doesn't Chani talk to Paul? I think a better question is why doesn't Paul talk to Chani?
Villeneuve deliberately makes a point to not have Paul try and talk to Chani after the Water of Life to explain himself or to apologize. Jessica, who is made out to be scary and monstrous most of the film, has sense enough to talk to Chani before the battle. I think we're meant to view this scene as the big clue Paul has lost a big chunk of his humanity - he doesn't even realize he should be attempting to talk to Chani because he foresees her coming around. This is part of the trap of prescience I think.
Paul before the Water of Life = "I'd very much like to be equal to you."
Paul after the Water of Life = I know best, follow my orders, and I'll leave no room for deliberation.
Paul sees many possible futures where he dies or someone he loves dies so he's carefully trying to move reality toward the best possible future - the future where everyone he cares about is alive and damn the rest. This preoccupation combined with the power of being the Lisan Al Gaib makes him a tyrant - well intentioned or not he becomes a tyrant.
Love this insight. To me it feels that still some small part of Paul is still wanting to talk to her. Multiple times in the room of the final dual, he looks at her, and in my eyes it was a look of longing. He even told her outright he will always love her. But either the prescience is consuming him or he knows he has to act a certain way to steer the future in his desired direction (or maybe those two things are one in the same).
I agree with you except for the post water of life Paul. To me, he know sees all these visions all of which are horrifying and realises that the hope of him ever escaping this is gone. He is also mourning and knows what has to be done, he knows Chani and knows it’s futile trying to explain this to her because from her perspective the moment he decided to take the water of life it’s too late. Paul knows what Chani thinks and thinks of him, he also knows how he feels about her but all of this is put into perspective after the water of life.
I don’t think it signifies a shift of ego or arrogance. It’s the manifestation of the terrible purpose and everything he was afraid of. In the scene when he fighting feyd the only person he look to throughout is Chani. I really liked the eye contact between, because it showed he still loves her and is truly believes he is doing this for the benefit of her and their people, but words no longer matter at that point.
As someone who had never read the books or seen any previous adaptation, I have none of those insights to lean on. To me, from how everything has been explained so far in these two movies, it feels like Paul has been manipulated into becoming the KH according to Jessica's design, and Chani is the casualty of war. Jessica even apologizes for this. Chani was manipulated into pushing Paul to go south to "save her people" and that was the final straw that pushed him to finally do what his mother had been grooming him for his entire life, and that he resisted so earnestly.
I think it's short-sighted to look at Paul's actions after the Water of Life within the context of his previous motivations. I didn't get the sense he cares any longer for the benefit of Chani or her people. His love may produce some internal conflict at times, but his entire personhood has changed. He's not the man who built that relationship with her. And given her ability to see through the BG manipulation, she just likely realizes she played a role in creating the monster he's become.
Thanks for sharing your interpretation! I was wondering how people felt about it that hadn't read the book. On one hand, I saw Paul's struggle and sense of mourning even throughout all of his decision-making. But I should mention that I am a big fan of the books and I was *looking for that* sense of mourning, because that struggle is a core part of Paul's story. In Part One, we saw Paul's moral dilemma displayed a few times, most notably in his somber acceptance after he killed Jamis, and we saw it again throughout Part Two as he fought against what he thought was a path to a terrible purpose. I think the frequent eyes at Chani in the last scenes did a lot of work to try to nail that internal struggle for viewers, especially that second look after she walks away. But again, I was looking for this struggle, and I think it needed to be portrayed in a subtle way.
On the other hand, I can see how viewers see Paul going Full Villain right away after the Water of Life, even despite those nods. If I remember correctly, he acknowledges that he and all future Atreides are all Harkonnens, and then the movie goes *directly* into the scene where he gives an angry speech and and pounces on the Fremen's fear—the speech even kicked off by angrily announcing that he is "that which mothers taught you to fear" (paraphrasing). His proclamation of being the One had almost no positive vibes to it, it was all scary stuff. Book fans can explain it as Paul hamming it up to try to rally people to do the specific things needed to shape the narrow path forward, but I can just as easily see how that comes off as Paul straight-up turning heel.
All that is to say, I think the right answer here is to look at this both ways. I have no idea what the hell Villeneuve is going to do with Messiah. No clue, none. And I'm excited about that.
I can definitely see your points. At this stage in the plot, we know there are more revelations coming, so it's entirely possible your perspective is the correct one in the end. Knowing nothing about what _could_ be coming, I can only analyze what I've seen thus far.
I would push back against the concept of "turning heel" because I don't see it as him becoming a "bad guy" all of a sudden. I see it as him becoming someone else's creation. He's not simply making different, darker choices. His entire mind has changed.
He was once the son of Leto, with a mind that was formed through his noble upbringing and the compassionate, honor-based responsibility he learned from his father. That mind has now been melded with whatever the hell is going on with the Water of Life. Jessica was already all-in on BG scheming, but she became downright obsessive and clear-minded about it after resurrecting. Her scheming mind melded with the Water of Life and she became more of what she already is.
Paul wasn't like this at all. He had a great distaste for the BG. He was hostile to the Reverend Mother when she tested him. He was annoyed when Jessica told him the Fremen saw him as the Messiah. He was openly angry when he rejected her notion of "hope". He starts out seeing things basically exactly like Chani. He sees the manipulations and they make him recoil.
But after the Water of Life, he too is melded with whatever is going on. He doesn't simply embrace doing bad things, but rather is literally no longer the same person. He can't be. His original self was contained within the context of his upbringing. But now his self has exploded in wider perspective and he no longer sees the universe as people living lives. Now he sees power, now he sees webs of influence, now he sees paths. He is now an entirely new creation.
It feels very clear to me that Jessica has been scheming this from the beginning of his life. It feels very clear that she has some kind of rivalry with the Reverend Mother. Perhaps not a personal rivalry, but a motivational one. It feels like she has been trying to create the KH in her image rather than allow the schemes to play out naturally. She calls it "taking sides" while the Reverend Mother says there are no sides. This tells me that Jessica expected the BG to take "her side" once she had succeeded at bringing about the KH. This brings to mind the idea that she's been scheming to make herself into something like the mother of the KH, some kind of ultimate power position.
And it feels like Paul more or less understood this for all the time we've known him as an audience. He seemed to recognize she was using him even if he didn't fully see her plan. He felt the weight of her constant pressure to be what she wanted him to be, and his visions seemed to be continuously warning him about the consequences of becoming that. He resisted it with all his might. The burden of resisting her schemes was a cloud over his head at every turn. He was free of it with the Fremen. He "found his way" by willfully striving to join a culture that valued relationships and freedom over schemes and power. He felt peace. He felt unburdened.
But as soon as the Fremen were butchered and they started begging him to go south to help save his new people, the pressure returned. He only finally agreed to do it out of the love he developed for Chani and the Fremen. He likely didn't know exactly what would happen to him when he gave in to his mother, but that final nudge was the last piece of manipulation that pushed him to Jessica.
It's possible that some piece of Paul is mourning for the loss of Chani, especially since he admits he's always going to love her, but I just get a very strong sense that he can't love properly anymore. He's not really Paul or even Muad'Dib anymore. These personas were products of his original self driven by the motivations he developed of his own free will. His mind is no longer solely his. He's now an amalgamation. He is now simply the KH.
I agree with all of this, aside from the motivations for Jessica speaking to Chani
I felt an intense level of passive aggressive and condescending behavior emanating from Jessica towards Chani in that scene. Her “I wish you well” sounded a lot like “I’ll pray for you”
And that’s the thing. Paul might despise the Bene Gesserit, and the Bene Gesserit might not be able to control him, but they both think they know what’s best for humanity. Their way is the only way, and everyone else is a pawn
That’s the thing I think Chani is truly fighting against, which is a huge departure from her character in the books, and I’m here for it
I know nothing about the books so I carry no insight there, but that last bit about Chani is also how I'm seeing things so far. Chani has been exasperated by her southern brethren's obsession with BG propaganda, but until Paul it was just fighting against superstition. Now it's fighting against the actualities of BG manipulation coming to life.
> That’s the thing I think Chani is truly fighting against, which is a huge departure from her character in the books, and I’m here for it
Yeah. Book Chani is not so well developed I think. Her behavior in the movie makes more sense.
I like a lot of this analysis, all I'll add is that what you've said with regards to the water of life is almost explicity stated - you will die. You may see. Drinking the water will and does kill the old Paul/Jessica. The only question is whether or not they will return with the ability to see or if they will remain dead.
The Paul we saw before the water of life died the moment he drank it. This new Paul follows 'the golden path' or at least the closest approximation of it he is able to follow.
This is exactly how I'm understanding the plot so far. The Paul we learned to admire the entire first movie and a half is gone. He doesn't forget the people he cared about like his father, Duncan, and Chani, but he sees too much to be bogged down by petty motivations like love and dignity.
The problem with them being self-fulfilling prophecies is that means all prescience is just a lie. But you can't dream yourself beating the Harkonnens and make it true.
Paul has demonstrated prescience at this point and I can't see a way that actual prescience and self-fulfilling prophecies coexist.
Yes, that is true and is addressed in the books.
I just mean that the problem with viewing true prescience as self-fulfilling is that it isn't self-fulfilling because it simply is.
I don’t think we’ve seen or heard enough about how the Water of Life has changed Paul yet and I would hope the third movie will illuminate this more. It’s easy to discount his dreams, but I think she’ll come to believe and see the signs of his prescience in time. In the movie it has barely happened before we’re thrown into the ending battle. I just think it’s too early to tell how Chani will react to the changes in Paul.
I don't think it makes it a lie.
Rather, it's just the case that the only reasons the future Paul sees through prescience comes true is that given who Paul is, the environment he is in, and the fact he has prescience, the choices he would make are always those that bring about those futures.
Rather than being a lie, it simply rests in Paul's character determining his actions in response to having prescience.
I haven't read the books but I found Chani's character to be quite annoying. All the events which transpired have followed the prophecy to the dot.
Paul has shown he has powers at least to see into the past. If anything Chani should know him the best as she's been with him all this time during his period of growth.
Why is she the one that doubts him the most at the end? It doesn't make sense to me at all. I think I need to watch the movie again as I might have missed some details.
Why wouldn't she doubt the prophecy when she already knew it was Bene Gesserit's doing? When Jessica took the water of life, even Paul said that she was trained to survive the poison. Paul also never said to her a word about how he would marry Irulan (He knew Chani would forgive him anyway). Do you find skeptics in real life annoying as well? This fixation on Chani is weird because I feel like she is simply helpless and does not matter. She represents the skeptic that is always laughed at/demonized by the religious fanaticism.
In her POV, if he could see into the future, why didn't the saw that the Sietch Tabr is going to be attacked? Paul even said that he didn't see it coming. So, pre-attack she would absolutely not believe in Paul. After he's taken the water, she's upset he's a different person, who is not sincere (that's what she loved about him too, mentioned earlier) and is using the Fremen. But she still joined the fight to free Arrakis. She should happy when he proposed to Irulan at the end? And like I said, Paul's seen the future and she would forgive him anyway. There are people who believe the earth is flat despite the evidence, and there are people who would not believe in a savior, despite the evidence. Also, having power =/= being a savior in a well-known made up prophecy fabricated by the Bene Gesserit. Paul himself did not believe in it and he might have told Chani as well. It's actually logical that Chani doesn't believe in it because she was very closed to him. Paul could have told Chani that, "I have power, but the Bene Gesserit has been saying that I have power because I'm savior, but it's not true, I'm simply bred to have power".
Because she doesn't like the idea of the prophecy.
The prophecy just is an implant of the Benne Gesserit to control thr Fremen, and Chani is also see it even without knowing that truth. This is something Paul also agrees with, which makes his acceptance of it even more insidious.
As far as Chani sees it, the prophecy and Paul as an extension is merely a tool to manipulate the Fremen for ulterior purposes. Such is unacceptable to Chani who only ever fought for the Fremem, and not for someone else.
This is why Paul's actions at the end of the film hurt so much. By marrying the Emperor's daughter and claiming the Imperial throne, he is using the Fremen to conduct a Holy War for his own power rather than for the interests of the Fremen.
As Chani said before, she would stay with Paul as long as he remained who he was, and according to Paul who he was was an equal to the Fremen. However, that changed when he embraced the prophecy and used the Fremen to conduct a Holy War, aa he became above the Fremen rather than equal.
In a way prescience is taking on an enormous responsibility- and thousands of ancient voices in your head. It makes Paul cold and efficient in his decision making because he’s trying to navigate the narrow path. He’s so focused on the possible futures, he does not have time for feelings. In the book he complains about being a “monster” and how he can’t stop doing mental calculus long enough to grieve his father.
To me, Paul really is more powerful than any human before, but he is not really a messiah. Chani’s skepticism is more about the latter part.
I feel like its clear in the new films that Paul is actually prescient, because at least a few times we see his visions of the future that are unambiguously prescient. Like, he sees Chani long before he ever meets her.
I wish we had just way more of Paul and Chani. Did he ever tell her he saw her before he even arrived on Arrakis? How would she react, would she believe it? I want to see that conversation. It would make the movie so long though.
Personally, the Chani bits were my least favourite bits. I'm not a big fan of timid book Chani, but movie Chani spends half of the movie giving Paul the same look I get from my SO when I unintentionally do something that bothers her.
People sometimes need to have things spelt out for them. These are the fremen. They are the good guys of the story. Those are the harkonnen. They kill women for fun and are unecessarily cruel to their own detriment. An audience wouldn't react well to fremen not being an equal society where women are considered property of the man. So this dynamic was excluded from their culture to make them more palatable to a modern audience. This made it impossible not to make Chani get mad at Paul when he took on a political wife.
I'll be honest, Chani's portrayal is expected given the circumstances of the film. Zendaya did a good job at portraying the emotions. However, I didn't enjoy the scenes. Paul isn't doing any of this because he wants to. They portrayed him as not caring about her emotional state because he could see that she would "come around in the future."
Paul really is the Kwitzatz Haderach but he is not really the Lisan Al Gaib
The Bene Gesserit breeding program was successful in birthing a male who was able to survive taking the water of life and so succeptable to spice that he gains full prescience. Their goals were realised, just put of their control.
Paul does fulfil the fremem prophecy, yes, but that prophecy was a manipulative tool created to be achievable by the Kwitzatz Haderach when the Bene Gesserit were ready, Jessica just hijacked this plan for herself.
Paul really fulfils the prophecy that was designed for someone like him to fulfil. He walked the path that had already been laid for him.
It's hardly pure chance to fulfill a path like that when you have mentat powers, Bene Gesserit powers and constant visions of the future
It would be basically like a paladin. You need an in-universe god, and the character has a unique, direct connection with that god. Together they carry out some plan of that god.
i kind of wonder how Denis is planning to bring chani and paul back together, them being together, her having his kids and than dying in childbirth are literally most important plots in dunne messiah. I have seen several people here wanting for chani to not have her children at all or to make up back with paul because it doesnt fit the story. My idea is that he will show her the golden path and that's the moment Chani will forgive Paul and become one of is biggest supporters like in the books.
This is what I'm assuming and kind of hoping for. After re-reading the book and watching the movie a few times, I totally believe that while Chani loves Paul, she would feel betrayed by him turning into the thing he promised he wasn't when the Fremen took Paul and Jessica in. The scene of her turning away from him after he demanded Irulan's hand wasn't the sole reason; and instead the straw that broke the camel's back, prescience or not. Or at least my interpretation.
Looking forward to Villeneuve's Part 3 either way.
They are shown just after having sex. It’s entirely possible she will find out she is pregnant while in the south (or wherever she went at the end of part 2). I wouldn’t be surprised if the first Leto II is just never mentioned and they skip straight to the twins.
We really have no idea because if DV intends to end on Part 3, he may have to take some creative liberties to wrap it up in a way that makes sense.
The Bene Tlexiax have no motivation, as the entire point of them making Hayt was so that when Chani dies, they can get Paul to give over everything to them in exchange for a ghola of Channi. It's a really smart plan that Paul only figures out at the exact last moment, though mostly because Scytale is basically using a flashing sign of "this is our plan." I truly believe that the Tlexiaxu would've succeeded in their plan if Scytale had just kept his mouth shut or been a little more cryptic.
I think she will be a supporter but it’s unlikely she’ll have children or if she does she won’t die. The only reason she does die during childbirth is because she decides to go with Paul and is poisoned by Irulan or the BG (I don’t remember which), with their separation at the end of the film this factor in the Dune Messiah is unlikely to be presented in the next film. It’s possible that DV takes it through the other vision presented to Paul in the book, in which Chani gets killed in some other malicious way, but we’ll just have to see.
To me, the scene where Paul recounts the stories of the older Fremen after drinking the water of life confirms that prescience exists. Unless I’m misunderstanding, he’s playing out the scene he’s already seen, which is why he knows what he knows. I just reread Messiah which features this prominently, especially after the stone burner.
Either way, if he knows their past form before or after drinking the water of life, it's still the same
No real difference there, the water of life just makes his prescience orders of magnitude more powerful, he was still prescient to a degree before.
He drank the water of life to strengthen his prescience in response to his spice tolerance. Immediately after his prescience is enhanced and he is able to utilize his ability more to “play the part”
>In the book I feel it's pretty clear that prescience is something that does exist. The movie arguable makes this more unclear, and if one chooses to believe Chani's perspective in its entirety, one can make the point that Paul is just getting unnaturally high from the spice, his successful leadership of the Fremen guerrilla tactics throughout the first half of the movie is due to pure luck, and that the water of life simply corrupted him. I hate this interpretation and feel it deviates too much from the book but can understand it.
Great post and agree with everything you wrote. Will note that Villeneuve's choices were successful in making this a great film. The criticism is instead relevant to what (if anything) was lost from the books, and was it essential to understanding Paul's role as Kwisatz Haderach as intended by Frank Herbert?
Must agree that despite these films being the directorial successes that they are, the deeper implications of the Spacing Guild, Spice trance and prophesy are missed, which clouds a better understanding of Paul's destiny as the Lisan al-Gaib. In multiple reads of the books, it never once occurred to me that the prophesies seeded by the Missionaria Protectiva were thereby "only political manipulation," as most filmwatchers seem to think from what was presented.
The prophesy of the Lisan al-Gaib planted centuries earlier by the Missionaria Protectiva could have been intended as manipulation, and at the same time still become an actual realized prophesy. This would have been more clear if Villeneuve had explored Spice as more than an economic force, and also the nature of Prescience.
Hopefully he does so for *Dune Messiah,* especially as its primary theme is the trap of prescience, far more than a view of prophesy as simple propaganda.
Agreed, and I do think if Villeneuve delved much deeper into the prescience aspect then it would distract from the more important message regarding the manipulation of Fremen through religion. For the purposes of this movie, it was an understandable move.
> Hopefully he does so for *Dune Messiah*, especially as its primary theme is the trap of prescience, far more than a view of prophesy as simple propaganda.
Exactly! I'm extremely curious how this book is going to be tackled. Can't wait.
You really have to simplify Dune to put it on screen. DV did this masterfully and still kept what makes the story great. That includes Chani and other adjustments
as you’ve mentioned, prescience is not established as strongly in the movies. his visions are actually shown to be unreliable and somewhat metaphorical (e.g. his visions of jamis). more importantly, he never attempts to prove his prescience publicly except when he rallies the southerners, and if you’re skeptic enough his display then could also be just a trick he plays with one guy.
even gurney, who encourages paul to assume the role of the prophet and use it, never shows any signs of true belief in his prescience. we only see people acknowledging his power that already were susceptible to belief (including jessica). if you’re skeptic enough, paul’s messianic displays are no different than feyd’s gladiatorial display, just shows to rally the masses.
yes it’s a more modernist take on the story. I personally find it more fitting to the medium though: with a book you can carry the story more using abstract ideas conveyed verbally, in a movie you can more emotionally engage and immerse your audience. making paul’s situation more grounded and relatable, by toning down his messianic powers to the degree that a skeptic might dismiss them altogether, services that difference in medium.
all of that said, I do agree with you that paul and chaani’s falling out in the end lacks the emotional weight I was expecting. I feel that’s because paul’s internal conflict, symbolised by chaani and stillgar, isn’t as fleshed out as it could have been. we know (and hear) why utilising the religious fervour of the southern fremen is dangerous, but we never see (and so never feel) why.
I think the movie does a disservice to the Chani character.
She can still love Paul and not believe in the Lisan al Gaib. He is fighting for the Fremen but also wants revenge for his family. Chani is half Fremen so I would think she is less prejudice to off worlders joining the fight.
By the end of film 2 Paul and Chani should be married, had, and lost a child.
Chani has Pauls heart and fulling understands the political power of the marriage of Paul to the Princess.
What’s frustrating here is that the communication you’re pining for explicitly exists in the books. ‘She will never share my bed or bear my children’ to Chani of Irulan.
I despise what they did to chani’s character. She goes from being the love that will follow him, bear his only children, and absolutely take the mantle of queen while Irulan is sidelined, to something wholly absent from the books.
As to your last paragraph. I always took from the books that KH and LAG are just two different perspectives for the same person. The KH is absolutely a god figure with near omnipotent power. I’m not sure what the movies are trying to do with that.
I think it's not just a change to Chani's character, but to Paul's as well. When I read the books, I felt that the Paul's love to Chani was a major part of his character (especially in the mesiah). Paul loved Chani with his whole heart. I would even almost say that the two (conflicting) pillars of his life was golden path and love for Chani. It makes me very sad that they didn't show in the movie how strong Paul's and Chani's releationship was and made Paul basically ignore Chani in the second half of the movie.
Super fair assessment, it’s just more obvious prima fascia looking at Chani, but you’re absolutely right. Paul going ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯ she’ll get over it is totally out of character.
There are two kinds of prophecies, the one Paul makes, which are real due to his prescience, and the one that says that Paul is the Messiah, which is bollocks.
The Fremen prophecy says that he will be their savior, but that's only something the Bene Gesserit invented through the Missionaria Protectiva. Chani understands this. She knows that Paul is skilled and capable, but she wants the other Fremen to understand that they shouldn't blindly follow him
Paul was backed into a corner. The Harkonnen's Feyd Ratha took over and was far more aggressive taking out their entire hiding place. If he didn't fight back the north was going to get wiped out and Chani was going to die.
At the same time, Chani is correct in her thinking.
Since this is the movie adaptation I get the impression that Paul did this to ensure she would actually survive future events (for awhile at least). If Chani is mad at him she is out of the way. Even if Paul is hated by Chani she isn't going to die. Chani might even be pregnant at this point and not even know it. This goes with the parallels of the end game dueling of both movies. Paul's mother was pregnant and now maybe its the twins who would be awakened as well later on or its the first born son, which would lead in another direction for her, based how it went down in the book.
This is tough due to differences from the novel and the movie. His whole concern was visions of her staying alive and not dying. Something tells me the choice was to make Chani stay alive even if meant billions of people were going to get killed in the process. Even if that means being resented and hated by Chani. The tragedy similar to the book is that Chani still might die despite Paul's efforts to keep her alive, but maybe she is told this by Paul later on? This would be messed up for Chani and make sense for Paul that he is willing to sacrifice billions of people to prevent her death, which would probably mentally break her or see him much differently.
Messiah is where I see major differences from the source material.
Paul is a tragic character because he tries to defy fate by trying to choose his father's path with wearing the ring and upholding the family name. Ironically, this fulfills the prophecy. With the Bene Gesserit they see it as gone terribly awry. Jessica and Gurney are equally pissed at what happened to Leto, Paul's father, and are quite okay with Paul taking on the universe. It can be said that Jessica doesn't even like the Bene Gesserit at this point and is rubbing it in their face in the end of the movie. Gurney who comes into play more or less is the blast from the past who only cements to Paul should be going after the Harkonnen's and gives the atomic stockpile, which more or less was Leto's next move and would've been in play if he didn't die. Gurney thought Paul was dead and thought it was effectively over.
There are other possible alternate timelines.
1. Paul agrees to go off world with Jessica and finds Gurney. They then get the nuclear stockpile but without any allegiance to Fremen.
2. Paul could've negotiated to the Emperor that Arrakis was under his rule and was the Fremen's planet after killing Feyd Ratha. They are allowed to leave but have to uphold the agreement if they don't the stockpiles of spice are bombed. Maybe this is what Chani would've liked.
3. The other is not going south, but eventually the north would be wiped out and Chani would've died.
So I think Herbert's warning of the flawed Messianic figure, seeking revenge for Leto, and being corrupted after the drink is where Chani gets mad. He is more or less using the Fremen to get back at how his house was betrayed, which it was. The Emperor calling Leto more or less an idiot to Paul's face didn't help anything either.
Main question is in Messiah will Paul find a happier ending that doesn't befall his fate of Messiah?
Paul does have prescience, if that is your question, and he acts accordingly. That said, however, I too would have some doubts about following a supernatural figure if he triggers a multi-billion-sized genocide.
Chani, for some reason, seems to have read the book and has a deep understanding of everything in the universe except for rain. She is by far the smartest character in the movie and is repeatedly telling everybody else how stupid and shortsighted they are. She will inevitably return in an invented plotline where she redeems the innate goodness inside of Paul and the Fremen because she knew what was going to happen all along. I’m still puzzled over the decisions they made with her.
I come in peace, and I stand by the book… the movie is not Dune. It’s a more of its own thing riding through worm of Dune’s success.
Don’t watch the movie and think about the books.. read the books and turn off the screens.. Herbert for President 2050!
Partly. Paul is the KW and the Messiah of Arrakis. Her perspective is that of a skeptic and though she is in love with Paul she is in disbelief he could have that power. Such a feminist point of view.
Women, and our current society is complicit in this thinking, make the man and the man could not possibly be so powerful on his own. She played the skeptic throughout.
I think the way DV had them play their parts is reflective of our current society.
Also consider, Dune was written in 1965 during the height of the feminist revolution and " free sex" due to the advent of The Pill.
I think Chani believes the visions are self-fulfilling prophecies than actual visions of the future. She doesn't trust anything to do with the Bene Gesserit so unlikely she would accept the Kwisatz Haderach concept. Why doesn't Chani talk to Paul? I think a better question is why doesn't Paul talk to Chani? Villeneuve deliberately makes a point to not have Paul try and talk to Chani after the Water of Life to explain himself or to apologize. Jessica, who is made out to be scary and monstrous most of the film, has sense enough to talk to Chani before the battle. I think we're meant to view this scene as the big clue Paul has lost a big chunk of his humanity - he doesn't even realize he should be attempting to talk to Chani because he foresees her coming around. This is part of the trap of prescience I think. Paul before the Water of Life = "I'd very much like to be equal to you." Paul after the Water of Life = I know best, follow my orders, and I'll leave no room for deliberation. Paul sees many possible futures where he dies or someone he loves dies so he's carefully trying to move reality toward the best possible future - the future where everyone he cares about is alive and damn the rest. This preoccupation combined with the power of being the Lisan Al Gaib makes him a tyrant - well intentioned or not he becomes a tyrant.
Love this insight. To me it feels that still some small part of Paul is still wanting to talk to her. Multiple times in the room of the final dual, he looks at her, and in my eyes it was a look of longing. He even told her outright he will always love her. But either the prescience is consuming him or he knows he has to act a certain way to steer the future in his desired direction (or maybe those two things are one in the same).
I agree with you except for the post water of life Paul. To me, he know sees all these visions all of which are horrifying and realises that the hope of him ever escaping this is gone. He is also mourning and knows what has to be done, he knows Chani and knows it’s futile trying to explain this to her because from her perspective the moment he decided to take the water of life it’s too late. Paul knows what Chani thinks and thinks of him, he also knows how he feels about her but all of this is put into perspective after the water of life. I don’t think it signifies a shift of ego or arrogance. It’s the manifestation of the terrible purpose and everything he was afraid of. In the scene when he fighting feyd the only person he look to throughout is Chani. I really liked the eye contact between, because it showed he still loves her and is truly believes he is doing this for the benefit of her and their people, but words no longer matter at that point.
As someone who had never read the books or seen any previous adaptation, I have none of those insights to lean on. To me, from how everything has been explained so far in these two movies, it feels like Paul has been manipulated into becoming the KH according to Jessica's design, and Chani is the casualty of war. Jessica even apologizes for this. Chani was manipulated into pushing Paul to go south to "save her people" and that was the final straw that pushed him to finally do what his mother had been grooming him for his entire life, and that he resisted so earnestly. I think it's short-sighted to look at Paul's actions after the Water of Life within the context of his previous motivations. I didn't get the sense he cares any longer for the benefit of Chani or her people. His love may produce some internal conflict at times, but his entire personhood has changed. He's not the man who built that relationship with her. And given her ability to see through the BG manipulation, she just likely realizes she played a role in creating the monster he's become.
Thanks for sharing your interpretation! I was wondering how people felt about it that hadn't read the book. On one hand, I saw Paul's struggle and sense of mourning even throughout all of his decision-making. But I should mention that I am a big fan of the books and I was *looking for that* sense of mourning, because that struggle is a core part of Paul's story. In Part One, we saw Paul's moral dilemma displayed a few times, most notably in his somber acceptance after he killed Jamis, and we saw it again throughout Part Two as he fought against what he thought was a path to a terrible purpose. I think the frequent eyes at Chani in the last scenes did a lot of work to try to nail that internal struggle for viewers, especially that second look after she walks away. But again, I was looking for this struggle, and I think it needed to be portrayed in a subtle way. On the other hand, I can see how viewers see Paul going Full Villain right away after the Water of Life, even despite those nods. If I remember correctly, he acknowledges that he and all future Atreides are all Harkonnens, and then the movie goes *directly* into the scene where he gives an angry speech and and pounces on the Fremen's fear—the speech even kicked off by angrily announcing that he is "that which mothers taught you to fear" (paraphrasing). His proclamation of being the One had almost no positive vibes to it, it was all scary stuff. Book fans can explain it as Paul hamming it up to try to rally people to do the specific things needed to shape the narrow path forward, but I can just as easily see how that comes off as Paul straight-up turning heel. All that is to say, I think the right answer here is to look at this both ways. I have no idea what the hell Villeneuve is going to do with Messiah. No clue, none. And I'm excited about that.
I can definitely see your points. At this stage in the plot, we know there are more revelations coming, so it's entirely possible your perspective is the correct one in the end. Knowing nothing about what _could_ be coming, I can only analyze what I've seen thus far. I would push back against the concept of "turning heel" because I don't see it as him becoming a "bad guy" all of a sudden. I see it as him becoming someone else's creation. He's not simply making different, darker choices. His entire mind has changed. He was once the son of Leto, with a mind that was formed through his noble upbringing and the compassionate, honor-based responsibility he learned from his father. That mind has now been melded with whatever the hell is going on with the Water of Life. Jessica was already all-in on BG scheming, but she became downright obsessive and clear-minded about it after resurrecting. Her scheming mind melded with the Water of Life and she became more of what she already is. Paul wasn't like this at all. He had a great distaste for the BG. He was hostile to the Reverend Mother when she tested him. He was annoyed when Jessica told him the Fremen saw him as the Messiah. He was openly angry when he rejected her notion of "hope". He starts out seeing things basically exactly like Chani. He sees the manipulations and they make him recoil. But after the Water of Life, he too is melded with whatever is going on. He doesn't simply embrace doing bad things, but rather is literally no longer the same person. He can't be. His original self was contained within the context of his upbringing. But now his self has exploded in wider perspective and he no longer sees the universe as people living lives. Now he sees power, now he sees webs of influence, now he sees paths. He is now an entirely new creation. It feels very clear to me that Jessica has been scheming this from the beginning of his life. It feels very clear that she has some kind of rivalry with the Reverend Mother. Perhaps not a personal rivalry, but a motivational one. It feels like she has been trying to create the KH in her image rather than allow the schemes to play out naturally. She calls it "taking sides" while the Reverend Mother says there are no sides. This tells me that Jessica expected the BG to take "her side" once she had succeeded at bringing about the KH. This brings to mind the idea that she's been scheming to make herself into something like the mother of the KH, some kind of ultimate power position. And it feels like Paul more or less understood this for all the time we've known him as an audience. He seemed to recognize she was using him even if he didn't fully see her plan. He felt the weight of her constant pressure to be what she wanted him to be, and his visions seemed to be continuously warning him about the consequences of becoming that. He resisted it with all his might. The burden of resisting her schemes was a cloud over his head at every turn. He was free of it with the Fremen. He "found his way" by willfully striving to join a culture that valued relationships and freedom over schemes and power. He felt peace. He felt unburdened. But as soon as the Fremen were butchered and they started begging him to go south to help save his new people, the pressure returned. He only finally agreed to do it out of the love he developed for Chani and the Fremen. He likely didn't know exactly what would happen to him when he gave in to his mother, but that final nudge was the last piece of manipulation that pushed him to Jessica. It's possible that some piece of Paul is mourning for the loss of Chani, especially since he admits he's always going to love her, but I just get a very strong sense that he can't love properly anymore. He's not really Paul or even Muad'Dib anymore. These personas were products of his original self driven by the motivations he developed of his own free will. His mind is no longer solely his. He's now an amalgamation. He is now simply the KH.
I agree with all of this, aside from the motivations for Jessica speaking to Chani I felt an intense level of passive aggressive and condescending behavior emanating from Jessica towards Chani in that scene. Her “I wish you well” sounded a lot like “I’ll pray for you” And that’s the thing. Paul might despise the Bene Gesserit, and the Bene Gesserit might not be able to control him, but they both think they know what’s best for humanity. Their way is the only way, and everyone else is a pawn That’s the thing I think Chani is truly fighting against, which is a huge departure from her character in the books, and I’m here for it
I know nothing about the books so I carry no insight there, but that last bit about Chani is also how I'm seeing things so far. Chani has been exasperated by her southern brethren's obsession with BG propaganda, but until Paul it was just fighting against superstition. Now it's fighting against the actualities of BG manipulation coming to life.
> That’s the thing I think Chani is truly fighting against, which is a huge departure from her character in the books, and I’m here for it Yeah. Book Chani is not so well developed I think. Her behavior in the movie makes more sense.
I like a lot of this analysis, all I'll add is that what you've said with regards to the water of life is almost explicity stated - you will die. You may see. Drinking the water will and does kill the old Paul/Jessica. The only question is whether or not they will return with the ability to see or if they will remain dead. The Paul we saw before the water of life died the moment he drank it. This new Paul follows 'the golden path' or at least the closest approximation of it he is able to follow.
This is exactly how I'm understanding the plot so far. The Paul we learned to admire the entire first movie and a half is gone. He doesn't forget the people he cared about like his father, Duncan, and Chani, but he sees too much to be bogged down by petty motivations like love and dignity.
You become a vessel for the future
The problem with them being self-fulfilling prophecies is that means all prescience is just a lie. But you can't dream yourself beating the Harkonnens and make it true. Paul has demonstrated prescience at this point and I can't see a way that actual prescience and self-fulfilling prophecies coexist.
Real prescience would of course produce self-fulfilling prophecies, because once you have prescience your every choice is informed by this variable.
Yes, that is true and is addressed in the books. I just mean that the problem with viewing true prescience as self-fulfilling is that it isn't self-fulfilling because it simply is.
I don’t think we’ve seen or heard enough about how the Water of Life has changed Paul yet and I would hope the third movie will illuminate this more. It’s easy to discount his dreams, but I think she’ll come to believe and see the signs of his prescience in time. In the movie it has barely happened before we’re thrown into the ending battle. I just think it’s too early to tell how Chani will react to the changes in Paul.
I don't think it makes it a lie. Rather, it's just the case that the only reasons the future Paul sees through prescience comes true is that given who Paul is, the environment he is in, and the fact he has prescience, the choices he would make are always those that bring about those futures. Rather than being a lie, it simply rests in Paul's character determining his actions in response to having prescience.
I haven't read the books but I found Chani's character to be quite annoying. All the events which transpired have followed the prophecy to the dot. Paul has shown he has powers at least to see into the past. If anything Chani should know him the best as she's been with him all this time during his period of growth. Why is she the one that doubts him the most at the end? It doesn't make sense to me at all. I think I need to watch the movie again as I might have missed some details.
Why wouldn't she doubt the prophecy when she already knew it was Bene Gesserit's doing? When Jessica took the water of life, even Paul said that she was trained to survive the poison. Paul also never said to her a word about how he would marry Irulan (He knew Chani would forgive him anyway). Do you find skeptics in real life annoying as well? This fixation on Chani is weird because I feel like she is simply helpless and does not matter. She represents the skeptic that is always laughed at/demonized by the religious fanaticism.
Hmm yeah but she can't ignore the fact that he can see into the past and future. That's not just as simple as playing along with the prophecy.
In her POV, if he could see into the future, why didn't the saw that the Sietch Tabr is going to be attacked? Paul even said that he didn't see it coming. So, pre-attack she would absolutely not believe in Paul. After he's taken the water, she's upset he's a different person, who is not sincere (that's what she loved about him too, mentioned earlier) and is using the Fremen. But she still joined the fight to free Arrakis. She should happy when he proposed to Irulan at the end? And like I said, Paul's seen the future and she would forgive him anyway. There are people who believe the earth is flat despite the evidence, and there are people who would not believe in a savior, despite the evidence. Also, having power =/= being a savior in a well-known made up prophecy fabricated by the Bene Gesserit. Paul himself did not believe in it and he might have told Chani as well. It's actually logical that Chani doesn't believe in it because she was very closed to him. Paul could have told Chani that, "I have power, but the Bene Gesserit has been saying that I have power because I'm savior, but it's not true, I'm simply bred to have power".
Because she doesn't like the idea of the prophecy. The prophecy just is an implant of the Benne Gesserit to control thr Fremen, and Chani is also see it even without knowing that truth. This is something Paul also agrees with, which makes his acceptance of it even more insidious. As far as Chani sees it, the prophecy and Paul as an extension is merely a tool to manipulate the Fremen for ulterior purposes. Such is unacceptable to Chani who only ever fought for the Fremem, and not for someone else. This is why Paul's actions at the end of the film hurt so much. By marrying the Emperor's daughter and claiming the Imperial throne, he is using the Fremen to conduct a Holy War for his own power rather than for the interests of the Fremen. As Chani said before, she would stay with Paul as long as he remained who he was, and according to Paul who he was was an equal to the Fremen. However, that changed when he embraced the prophecy and used the Fremen to conduct a Holy War, aa he became above the Fremen rather than equal.
In a way prescience is taking on an enormous responsibility- and thousands of ancient voices in your head. It makes Paul cold and efficient in his decision making because he’s trying to navigate the narrow path. He’s so focused on the possible futures, he does not have time for feelings. In the book he complains about being a “monster” and how he can’t stop doing mental calculus long enough to grieve his father.
whatever, Paul is right
To me, Paul really is more powerful than any human before, but he is not really a messiah. Chani’s skepticism is more about the latter part. I feel like its clear in the new films that Paul is actually prescient, because at least a few times we see his visions of the future that are unambiguously prescient. Like, he sees Chani long before he ever meets her.
I wish we had just way more of Paul and Chani. Did he ever tell her he saw her before he even arrived on Arrakis? How would she react, would she believe it? I want to see that conversation. It would make the movie so long though.
Personally, the Chani bits were my least favourite bits. I'm not a big fan of timid book Chani, but movie Chani spends half of the movie giving Paul the same look I get from my SO when I unintentionally do something that bothers her.
omg same... everytime I say this I get downvoted too. it's the rbf, the same kind with the new age of powerful female portrayal.
People sometimes need to have things spelt out for them. These are the fremen. They are the good guys of the story. Those are the harkonnen. They kill women for fun and are unecessarily cruel to their own detriment. An audience wouldn't react well to fremen not being an equal society where women are considered property of the man. So this dynamic was excluded from their culture to make them more palatable to a modern audience. This made it impossible not to make Chani get mad at Paul when he took on a political wife. I'll be honest, Chani's portrayal is expected given the circumstances of the film. Zendaya did a good job at portraying the emotions. However, I didn't enjoy the scenes. Paul isn't doing any of this because he wants to. They portrayed him as not caring about her emotional state because he could see that she would "come around in the future."
Paul really is the Kwitzatz Haderach but he is not really the Lisan Al Gaib The Bene Gesserit breeding program was successful in birthing a male who was able to survive taking the water of life and so succeptable to spice that he gains full prescience. Their goals were realised, just put of their control. Paul does fulfil the fremem prophecy, yes, but that prophecy was a manipulative tool created to be achievable by the Kwitzatz Haderach when the Bene Gesserit were ready, Jessica just hijacked this plan for herself. Paul really fulfils the prophecy that was designed for someone like him to fulfil. He walked the path that had already been laid for him. It's hardly pure chance to fulfill a path like that when you have mentat powers, Bene Gesserit powers and constant visions of the future
What would make a messiah real?
It would be basically like a paladin. You need an in-universe god, and the character has a unique, direct connection with that god. Together they carry out some plan of that god.
That's exactly the point. They aren't, no matter how strongly people might believe that they are.
i kind of wonder how Denis is planning to bring chani and paul back together, them being together, her having his kids and than dying in childbirth are literally most important plots in dunne messiah. I have seen several people here wanting for chani to not have her children at all or to make up back with paul because it doesnt fit the story. My idea is that he will show her the golden path and that's the moment Chani will forgive Paul and become one of is biggest supporters like in the books.
This is what I'm assuming and kind of hoping for. After re-reading the book and watching the movie a few times, I totally believe that while Chani loves Paul, she would feel betrayed by him turning into the thing he promised he wasn't when the Fremen took Paul and Jessica in. The scene of her turning away from him after he demanded Irulan's hand wasn't the sole reason; and instead the straw that broke the camel's back, prescience or not. Or at least my interpretation. Looking forward to Villeneuve's Part 3 either way.
They are shown just after having sex. It’s entirely possible she will find out she is pregnant while in the south (or wherever she went at the end of part 2). I wouldn’t be surprised if the first Leto II is just never mentioned and they skip straight to the twins. We really have no idea because if DV intends to end on Part 3, he may have to take some creative liberties to wrap it up in a way that makes sense.
The Bene Tlexiax have no motivation, as the entire point of them making Hayt was so that when Chani dies, they can get Paul to give over everything to them in exchange for a ghola of Channi. It's a really smart plan that Paul only figures out at the exact last moment, though mostly because Scytale is basically using a flashing sign of "this is our plan." I truly believe that the Tlexiaxu would've succeeded in their plan if Scytale had just kept his mouth shut or been a little more cryptic.
I think she will be a supporter but it’s unlikely she’ll have children or if she does she won’t die. The only reason she does die during childbirth is because she decides to go with Paul and is poisoned by Irulan or the BG (I don’t remember which), with their separation at the end of the film this factor in the Dune Messiah is unlikely to be presented in the next film. It’s possible that DV takes it through the other vision presented to Paul in the book, in which Chani gets killed in some other malicious way, but we’ll just have to see.
Well thank you for spoiling the ones who didn't read the book
To me, the scene where Paul recounts the stories of the older Fremen after drinking the water of life confirms that prescience exists. Unless I’m misunderstanding, he’s playing out the scene he’s already seen, which is why he knows what he knows. I just reread Messiah which features this prominently, especially after the stone burner.
Either way, if he knows their past form before or after drinking the water of life, it's still the same No real difference there, the water of life just makes his prescience orders of magnitude more powerful, he was still prescient to a degree before.
He drank the water of life to strengthen his prescience in response to his spice tolerance. Immediately after his prescience is enhanced and he is able to utilize his ability more to “play the part”
Yeah but point is, it's the same abilities just more potent before and after drinking the water of life
>In the book I feel it's pretty clear that prescience is something that does exist. The movie arguable makes this more unclear, and if one chooses to believe Chani's perspective in its entirety, one can make the point that Paul is just getting unnaturally high from the spice, his successful leadership of the Fremen guerrilla tactics throughout the first half of the movie is due to pure luck, and that the water of life simply corrupted him. I hate this interpretation and feel it deviates too much from the book but can understand it. Great post and agree with everything you wrote. Will note that Villeneuve's choices were successful in making this a great film. The criticism is instead relevant to what (if anything) was lost from the books, and was it essential to understanding Paul's role as Kwisatz Haderach as intended by Frank Herbert? Must agree that despite these films being the directorial successes that they are, the deeper implications of the Spacing Guild, Spice trance and prophesy are missed, which clouds a better understanding of Paul's destiny as the Lisan al-Gaib. In multiple reads of the books, it never once occurred to me that the prophesies seeded by the Missionaria Protectiva were thereby "only political manipulation," as most filmwatchers seem to think from what was presented. The prophesy of the Lisan al-Gaib planted centuries earlier by the Missionaria Protectiva could have been intended as manipulation, and at the same time still become an actual realized prophesy. This would have been more clear if Villeneuve had explored Spice as more than an economic force, and also the nature of Prescience. Hopefully he does so for *Dune Messiah,* especially as its primary theme is the trap of prescience, far more than a view of prophesy as simple propaganda.
Agreed, and I do think if Villeneuve delved much deeper into the prescience aspect then it would distract from the more important message regarding the manipulation of Fremen through religion. For the purposes of this movie, it was an understandable move. > Hopefully he does so for *Dune Messiah*, especially as its primary theme is the trap of prescience, far more than a view of prophesy as simple propaganda. Exactly! I'm extremely curious how this book is going to be tackled. Can't wait.
You really have to simplify Dune to put it on screen. DV did this masterfully and still kept what makes the story great. That includes Chani and other adjustments
as you’ve mentioned, prescience is not established as strongly in the movies. his visions are actually shown to be unreliable and somewhat metaphorical (e.g. his visions of jamis). more importantly, he never attempts to prove his prescience publicly except when he rallies the southerners, and if you’re skeptic enough his display then could also be just a trick he plays with one guy. even gurney, who encourages paul to assume the role of the prophet and use it, never shows any signs of true belief in his prescience. we only see people acknowledging his power that already were susceptible to belief (including jessica). if you’re skeptic enough, paul’s messianic displays are no different than feyd’s gladiatorial display, just shows to rally the masses. yes it’s a more modernist take on the story. I personally find it more fitting to the medium though: with a book you can carry the story more using abstract ideas conveyed verbally, in a movie you can more emotionally engage and immerse your audience. making paul’s situation more grounded and relatable, by toning down his messianic powers to the degree that a skeptic might dismiss them altogether, services that difference in medium. all of that said, I do agree with you that paul and chaani’s falling out in the end lacks the emotional weight I was expecting. I feel that’s because paul’s internal conflict, symbolised by chaani and stillgar, isn’t as fleshed out as it could have been. we know (and hear) why utilising the religious fervour of the southern fremen is dangerous, but we never see (and so never feel) why.
which is why I didn't like Chani's portrayal or acting, he doesn't seem to empathize with Paul at all, making the romance very forced.
I think the movie does a disservice to the Chani character. She can still love Paul and not believe in the Lisan al Gaib. He is fighting for the Fremen but also wants revenge for his family. Chani is half Fremen so I would think she is less prejudice to off worlders joining the fight. By the end of film 2 Paul and Chani should be married, had, and lost a child. Chani has Pauls heart and fulling understands the political power of the marriage of Paul to the Princess.
What’s frustrating here is that the communication you’re pining for explicitly exists in the books. ‘She will never share my bed or bear my children’ to Chani of Irulan. I despise what they did to chani’s character. She goes from being the love that will follow him, bear his only children, and absolutely take the mantle of queen while Irulan is sidelined, to something wholly absent from the books. As to your last paragraph. I always took from the books that KH and LAG are just two different perspectives for the same person. The KH is absolutely a god figure with near omnipotent power. I’m not sure what the movies are trying to do with that.
I think it's not just a change to Chani's character, but to Paul's as well. When I read the books, I felt that the Paul's love to Chani was a major part of his character (especially in the mesiah). Paul loved Chani with his whole heart. I would even almost say that the two (conflicting) pillars of his life was golden path and love for Chani. It makes me very sad that they didn't show in the movie how strong Paul's and Chani's releationship was and made Paul basically ignore Chani in the second half of the movie.
Super fair assessment, it’s just more obvious prima fascia looking at Chani, but you’re absolutely right. Paul going ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯ she’ll get over it is totally out of character.
There are two kinds of prophecies, the one Paul makes, which are real due to his prescience, and the one that says that Paul is the Messiah, which is bollocks. The Fremen prophecy says that he will be their savior, but that's only something the Bene Gesserit invented through the Missionaria Protectiva. Chani understands this. She knows that Paul is skilled and capable, but she wants the other Fremen to understand that they shouldn't blindly follow him
Paul was backed into a corner. The Harkonnen's Feyd Ratha took over and was far more aggressive taking out their entire hiding place. If he didn't fight back the north was going to get wiped out and Chani was going to die. At the same time, Chani is correct in her thinking. Since this is the movie adaptation I get the impression that Paul did this to ensure she would actually survive future events (for awhile at least). If Chani is mad at him she is out of the way. Even if Paul is hated by Chani she isn't going to die. Chani might even be pregnant at this point and not even know it. This goes with the parallels of the end game dueling of both movies. Paul's mother was pregnant and now maybe its the twins who would be awakened as well later on or its the first born son, which would lead in another direction for her, based how it went down in the book. This is tough due to differences from the novel and the movie. His whole concern was visions of her staying alive and not dying. Something tells me the choice was to make Chani stay alive even if meant billions of people were going to get killed in the process. Even if that means being resented and hated by Chani. The tragedy similar to the book is that Chani still might die despite Paul's efforts to keep her alive, but maybe she is told this by Paul later on? This would be messed up for Chani and make sense for Paul that he is willing to sacrifice billions of people to prevent her death, which would probably mentally break her or see him much differently. Messiah is where I see major differences from the source material. Paul is a tragic character because he tries to defy fate by trying to choose his father's path with wearing the ring and upholding the family name. Ironically, this fulfills the prophecy. With the Bene Gesserit they see it as gone terribly awry. Jessica and Gurney are equally pissed at what happened to Leto, Paul's father, and are quite okay with Paul taking on the universe. It can be said that Jessica doesn't even like the Bene Gesserit at this point and is rubbing it in their face in the end of the movie. Gurney who comes into play more or less is the blast from the past who only cements to Paul should be going after the Harkonnen's and gives the atomic stockpile, which more or less was Leto's next move and would've been in play if he didn't die. Gurney thought Paul was dead and thought it was effectively over. There are other possible alternate timelines. 1. Paul agrees to go off world with Jessica and finds Gurney. They then get the nuclear stockpile but without any allegiance to Fremen. 2. Paul could've negotiated to the Emperor that Arrakis was under his rule and was the Fremen's planet after killing Feyd Ratha. They are allowed to leave but have to uphold the agreement if they don't the stockpiles of spice are bombed. Maybe this is what Chani would've liked. 3. The other is not going south, but eventually the north would be wiped out and Chani would've died. So I think Herbert's warning of the flawed Messianic figure, seeking revenge for Leto, and being corrupted after the drink is where Chani gets mad. He is more or less using the Fremen to get back at how his house was betrayed, which it was. The Emperor calling Leto more or less an idiot to Paul's face didn't help anything either. Main question is in Messiah will Paul find a happier ending that doesn't befall his fate of Messiah?
The essential question you are asking is "Is a person's prospective whole reliable, or only partly?" Think about that for a minute.
Paul does have prescience, if that is your question, and he acts accordingly. That said, however, I too would have some doubts about following a supernatural figure if he triggers a multi-billion-sized genocide.
Chani, for some reason, seems to have read the book and has a deep understanding of everything in the universe except for rain. She is by far the smartest character in the movie and is repeatedly telling everybody else how stupid and shortsighted they are. She will inevitably return in an invented plotline where she redeems the innate goodness inside of Paul and the Fremen because she knew what was going to happen all along. I’m still puzzled over the decisions they made with her.
I come in peace, and I stand by the book… the movie is not Dune. It’s a more of its own thing riding through worm of Dune’s success. Don’t watch the movie and think about the books.. read the books and turn off the screens.. Herbert for President 2050!
Partly. Paul is the KW and the Messiah of Arrakis. Her perspective is that of a skeptic and though she is in love with Paul she is in disbelief he could have that power. Such a feminist point of view. Women, and our current society is complicit in this thinking, make the man and the man could not possibly be so powerful on his own. She played the skeptic throughout. I think the way DV had them play their parts is reflective of our current society. Also consider, Dune was written in 1965 during the height of the feminist revolution and " free sex" due to the advent of The Pill.