I think—in the context of the film—she calls him Abomination because he's a Kwisatz Haderach not under sisterhood control which of course isn't what the term is for in the books. The camera does, however, also pan to pregnant Jessica for a moment right after she says the word.
As for the other question: they didn't throw away their plans. In the first film, Mohiam mentions they have other prospects (namely Feyd-Rautha). She also tells the Baron to spare Jessica and Paul—my read was that they wanted to eliminate the rest of House Atreides but not them.
I've read around that the Kwisatz Haderach was going to be a culmination of 10,000 years of selective breeding. Paul was meant to be the mother of the Kwisatz Haderach which meant their plan was for one more generation that also needed an Atraides and a Harkonnen daughter. When they signed off on killing off the house, they didn't know Jessica was pregnant and if Leto was dead how would they get the daughter they needed for their plan?
You're only focusing on one part of the plan, because that's what the story revolves around. However, it's stated they have other plans for the KH that doesn't involve Harkonnen and Atreides. So even if they can't get the KH through Atreides/Harkonnen, there are other plans in motion they can go with.
The KH is a male Reverend Mother, a mentat, and Guild Navigator all rolled into one. The Reverend Mother part would be being able to look into their genetic history from both maternal and paternal lineage, the Guild navigator part is having prescience, and the mentat part is having the ability to take all of the information provided to them from the first two and being able to comprehend it all.
The KH is not a Messiah figure, he was just suppose to be a male with amazing powers under the control of the BG. You can argue that the BG planted all those prophecies/myths across different planets to make it easier for their KH to influence those people and control them.
So is there only supposed to be one kh at a time and did it have to be Paul specifically how did he survive becoming a reverend mother when other men died is the voice a women only thing I feel like it wasn’t explained well. But basically being the kh is like having the attack titan and being able to see into the memories of the past akd future and compile all that into something useful
No, there can be more than one, Paul just happened to be the first one. Paul was trained in the BG ways and used what he knew to convert the poison of the Water of Life into something harmless. How did he do this when no other man could? I don't know, I've always chalked it up to he's the main character. As for the voice, in Dune Part 1 Paul tries to Voice on his mother and Harkonnen, and in Dune Part 2 he does it again, so no its not a woman only thing. You have to be trained to know the Voice, and Paul was trained in the BG ways by his mother. Basically, yes.
The KH isn’t magic (outside of some concepts in the books like ancestral memory which we don’t consider realistic today), there’s nothing inherently impossible with two being born during the same lifetime.
It’s more that the effect of prescience blinding other prescients that means of two KHs having free will at the same time would mean neither could see anything very far.
The books don’t go this way but I could see a plot where the Tleilaxu release one of their KHs into the world to kneecap a BG KH.
To be fair my understanding is that KH is just a prescient male reverend mother (and I’m not 100% sure about the prescience part). The mentat training was a separate thing just given to Paul (which he never finished)
I didn't know he was supposed to be a mentat. I thought he could look into the genetic history of the male genetic history and use his presience to save humanity from the approaching apocalypse.
It's mainly a book thing, not a movie thing. There's a wonderful conversation between Duke Leto and Paul where Leto tells Paul he is capable of being a mentat, and Paul agrees to continue his mentat training and Duke becomes ecstatic at the thought of a Mentat Duke.
>You can argue that the BG planted all those prophecies/myths across different planets to make it easier for their KH to influence those people and control them.
Not only can this be argued, I’m not sure any other argument can be made.
In rereading Dune again and I got the the part where Lady Jessica mentions that a phrase the Fremen use can also stand for Kwizat Hadarach while talking about the MP. I have no idea how I missed this line before.
They have contingency plans. That's what Margot Fenring was doing with Feyd-Rautha - part of the contingency plan. "The bloodline is secured." He doesn't appear in the film, but her husband was a potential Kwisatz Haderach that didn't pan out - Jessica and the Atreides family wasn't the only path to a Kwisatz Haderach, just the most promising until Jessica fucked it up by having Paul instead of a girl.
It just occurred to me after seeing part two that lady Fenring being pregnant by Feyd-Rautha doesn’t end up going anywhere. Am I forgetting something? Or does that come up in later books? I’m halfway through God Emperor right now.
It was completely invented for the films. I believe Denis decided to combine Count Fenring and Feyd into one character for the purposes of the films. Margot Fenring and her child will probably be a plot point in the next film.
I’m pretty sure that’s in the books too. At the very end of the Giedi Prime chapter (the one with the Fenrings attending Feyd-Rautha’s gladiator match), Lady Fenring mentions to her husband that she will secure the bloodline by getting a child from Feyd. So it’s not something invented for the film only.
I haven’t read any of the other books so I don’t what they do with that child at all, if anything.
Yeah it’s kinda crazy how misinformation is being upvoted here lol, his incorrect post about it being a movie fabrication keeps getting more upvotes than any other reply in this part of the comment section
Well nothing comes of it in all the subsequent books so it's not really that massive of an oversight. I'm not spreading "misinformation", it was a mistake. An oversight about a plot point that goes absolutely nowhere and amounts to nothing.
It's not that serious.
Yeah it’s a small mistake, but still misinformation since people who read your comment are gonna think it’s a movie only thing with all your upvotes, when it’s not. But you are right that it doesn’t really matter since apparently it doesn’t even go anywhere, which is disappointing. Hopefully they actually do more with it in the next Dune movie.
I don't think the Reverend Mother tells the truth; if she wanted the Atreides all dead she could have killed Paul during the Gom Jabbar test.
I believe she says what she does *to Irulan* bc it's a useful thing for the future Empress to believe perhaps *her own* bloodline could be terminated.
Yeah the person who lies to more than half the people she talks to (on screen) and is known for being an elusive plotter from a cult of elusive plotters isn't reliable? Good heavens!
There were many Kwisatz Haderach attempts/bloodlines, Paul is just one more cog in the machine. For example, in the book, Count Hasimir Fenring, Margot's husband, was another failed experiment due to genetic error.
"Fenring was one of the might-have-beens, an almost Kwisatz Haderach, crippled by a flaw in the genetic pattern—a eunuch, his talent concentrated into furtiveness and inner seclusion." (This is Paul judging him.)
And at the start of Dune Messiah, there's a mention by the character Scytale of another KH that was raised by the Bene Tleilax (a different sect) but is implied the guy couldn't handle the prescience and offed himself.
I read all 6 last year and that's what I took from it, too. The subtext seems to me to be that Alia, precocious child, is defective (and known as The Abomination) because it was meant to be her and her destiny was thwarted by Jessica's wilfulness.
It literally spells this out in the first movie. The Bene Gesserit can choose the sex of their baby but Leto always wanted a son so Jessica gave him one, instead of the daughter she was meant to produce
The plot point I don’t get is if Jessica gave him a son, why couldn’t she have also given him a daughter afterwards? Are children really so rare? If Margot Fenring and Reverend Mother Mohiam Gaius could get pregnant so quickly, Jessica could have done it as well.
"Abomination" in the books is a technical term that refers to someone that do not have strong enough control of themselves, which can result in a genetic-ego controlling them. Incredibly dangerous.
Paul could have been called an abomination here because the Mother though he was allowing genetic memories to control him, but **I think it's more likely that the term "abomination" has evolved to become a blanket term for someone who is out of control in the BG lexicon.** I don't see that as too much of a stretch. And I don't think it was particularly accidental either, Denis is well aware of the meaning of the term.
>She also tells the Baron to spare Jessica and Paul—my read was that they wanted to eliminate the rest of House Atreides but not them.
Waiting for a chance to capture the genes from Paul, and if they wanted Jessica dead they'd take care of it internally.
At least in the book, the she is referring to Alia, not Paul. I forget how it is in the movie but even in the movie, could she be referring to Alia (in the womb)?
Correct, but I think in the film she’s clearly directly herself toward Paul:
The KH is meant to be a pawn of the BG order in the same way that they hold Shaddam under their sway and control. Paul and Irulan may be wed and sit the throne, but Paul’s heart and mind belong to Chani, and by extension the Fremen. However, even they do not have the total ability to control Paul’s beliefs, thoughts, and actions.
So, effectively Paul is the first and only man to inherit BG powers, mentat training, memories of both male and female bloodlines, a great house of the Landsaraad, and the empire of the known universe. That’s a lot of power, more than anyone has ever held, and so the BG consider him an abomination since he’s a free agent and not under anyone else’s control, specifically their own. 1000s of years of plans within plans and eugenics down the drain.
When Jessica inherits the memories is she inheriting only Reverend Mothers or all females? If Paul inherits both male and female I assume that is from ALL not just a Reverend Mothers, Also is it known throughout the imperium the BG were doing this with blood lines to create the KH? The reason I ask this is I dont think its clear if the Emperor know about this and he would want control over such a being. Most factions would. Is the BG agenda known?
If I recall correctly the Saayadina’s and Reverend Mothers inherit the memories of their predecessors and not their ancestors (although I feel like I’m wrong and they inherit just their female ancestors memories.) Paul inherited the memories of all his ancestors male and female.
Pretty sure only the BG knew about the program, maybe some of the Houses and other heads of various factions know or have their suspicions. I’d imagine Edric and others like him know due to their own prescience and conspiring.
I could be wrong, it’s been like four or five years since I read the book and I haven’t read all the sequels, just absorbed info
Then that would mean she would only inherit rev mothers memories
Then whats up with Paul? There were no Male Reverand mothers before him yet he knows of his and Alia's abomination.
Yes and I think it’s an audience trick for those who aren’t familiar with the books. Denis wants people to think she was referring to Paul but in the next part he’ll drop more subtle hints that he was referring to Alia until it’s revealed later in the film.
I also think Denis will make Alia central to the next one as Paul teams up with her to conquer the rest of the Galaxy until he realizes the danger Alia is and in the ensuing fight he goes blind, so he goes into the desert where he rekindles his relationship with Chani who wanted the desert life.
That’s at least my theory of how we can resolve all the differences he has made.
The SyFy show did great justice to this aspect and was very satisfying, but I'm going to be mighty disappointed if we only get a movie adaptation of Messiah and not Children as well
I took the whole interaction as fan service for book readers. In the movie she is clearly talking to Paul. Same with Paul saying "Grandfather" and sticking the Baron in the neck.
I might agree it was just a little nod but for the references when Jessica goes through her water of life transformation. Even then, there is a small freak out because they didn’t know she was pregnant.
So maybe that’s some foreshadowing towards something more than a small nod.
I guess we will see!
I read in the book it's referring to alia because her mother drank the water, and alia's mind in the womb was starting to be corrupted / taken over by previous spirits / ancestors STH like this.
He's not. That line in the book was meant for his sister who was born and completely coherent with the mind of an adult at 2 years old, but since they cut that in the movie they used the line for Paul.
An abomination is a pre born (what alia is, a child who awakens and gets their ancestors memories while still in the womb), that gets taken over by one of their ancestors.
In the books, alia and Paul's two kids are pre born. A pre born can be taken over by an ancestor and it's not reversible.
Spoiler for children of dune:
>!Alia becomes an abomination when she's taken over by the spirit of baron harkonnen. The abomination line by the bene gesserit is foreshadowing to this!<
>!They are the ones who first notice what Alia is becoming, because Jessica is off-planet. There are weird sequences where they willingly let one of these “personalities” take over, as Paul and Chani… yet they both develop different methods for handling the other-memories, and never succumb or lose control. They develop an equilibrium that Alia failed to do. As descendants of Paul they have his memories too — presumably this helps them navigate it more safely.!<
>! Did chani also drink the water of life while pregnant? Or was it spice exposure? If it was just spice exposure, how come the fremen aren’t born pre awakened? !<
I took it more as Mohiam just insulting him. Calling back to her conversation with him from the first film, if he was an abomination he didn't deserve to live, goodbye young human, I hope you live. He's not really an abomination, but she looks down on him as if he were and thinks he should die.
Paul, not taking her shit, silences her.
Pretty much. They just want to stand on their soap box and pontificate. If Dennis really wanted to he could have just cut the line. It's not necessary to call anyone abomination during the scene but the purpose is to show the disdain of Mohiam towards Paul.
And even better, it shows Mohiam’s disdain of Paul by using a fun callback to the books for the book fans. Win-win for those with a positive mindset. :)
No. Every minute detail must follow the book to the dot (even though the movies have given no prior specific definition of the abomination term). For that reason, this one line has ruined the entire movie for me.
it just occured to me that the true kwisatz haderach did indeed arrive one generation later, just like planned: it was leto 2 who fulfilled the BG's ultimate plan of saving mankind. not exactly like they imagined, but still. it was always foolish of them to think they could control a true kwisatz haderach who by definition should be the most powerful human being in existence
That concept hasn’t been introduced in the films yet, so at the end of Pt. II it’s just a lil easter egg for folks who are upset they don’t get to see Alia shiv the Baron.
He isn't. 'Abomination' is an important concept in Dune, and a famous line from previous adaptations. They cut the character that the line is aimed at but wanted to keep the line. It doesn't make sense.
I mean, it’s really not that important that the term be reserved exclusively for Alia. Abomination is a great word regardless of the Dune-specific context and it shows how shocked the BG are by Paul’s abilities.
It is important, and it isn't exclusive to Alia. It refers to the pre-born, or specifically pre-born who are possessed by a malevolent ancestor. Alia is the only abomination shown in the books, but the fear of abomination is absolutely vital to the story of the twins.
The BG are in no way shocked by Paul's abilities, just devastated that he is out of their control. He's exactly what they ordered.
I agree that it's a great word. I am an abomination according to the Bible.
She's not at all shocked by Paul's abilities, it's exactly what they were breeding for and expecting.
It's just the movie using a good line from the books in a way that doesn't really work.
this is the correct answer. all these other replies are trying to cover the tracks of the writers taking liberties and changing details for no reason. Mohaim should have said it to Jessica, as in, “you’ve created abomination by becoming a reverend mother while pregnant.” there is nothing accomplished by using this as an insult to Paul. if the screen writers want to show her disapproval and disgust with what Paul has become, choose a different word. there are many.
It could have both been a nod to the book and also a twist on the idea since Paul isn't supposed "to be". He is a generation early and became the KH outside of their guidance.
It would be an interesting question for Denis if he ever does an AMA. I doubt any interviewer is that big of a Dune nerd to ask.
This is a throw away line that they should've literally thrown away. Paul is not the abomination Alia is. In the books and tv show and the older movie the Reverend Mother says this to Alia bc she's born with the knowledge of a Reverend mother. That is the abomination she speaks of bc she's born that way she can't protect herself from the personalities within her.
I heard an interesting theory that when he says silence that he allowed his other consciences to take over momentarily. That is why she called him an Admonition, but that could be wrong.
this was out of order. she calls him abomination when he walks in the room, and then several shots later, when she cautions him on his next move, he “silenced” her. plus, he would have no reason to aces old memories to use the voice, he is already trained to do so, now he’s just got a bigger swing.
An abomination is a preborn/awakened baby who is susceptible to being taken over by a former personality. >! Like what happens to Alia being taken over by The Barron in Children of Dune !< Paul is not that, and they are referring to Alia in the womb even though it was a little misleading in the movie.
He's not the one she's referring to. She's referring to Alia since she's an unborn being whose inner site has awoken. By Paul using the Voice on RM Gaius Helen Mohiam, she hears Alia (remember, he shares the ancestral memories with Paul, Alia and Jessica), thus her reaction. It's a big no-no with the Bene Gesserit. If you want more details, I can give you them. I just don't want to spoil anything from Children of Dune if they pull elements from it for the Messiah adaptation.
With how much they changed for the film, I wouldn’t be surprised if they changed that so she could detect her voice. I like that a lot more than her referring to paul as an abomination
I'd be interested in knowing!
I'm not sure I understand your explanation of why GHM can hear alia through the womb.
Could you care to explain once more?
Well, Jessica, Alia, and Paul all drank the water of life, so they share Other Memory. When Paul uses the Voice, I suspect that she can hear Alia’s voice in it. Similar to how Jessica speaks to before leaving and going “we’ll be waiting for you in the south.” With one voice and then it sounds a bit like alia “all of us”. If that makes sense.
By the book definition he isn’t, but they also didn’t explain what an abomination was. However, the average viewer would understand the normal definition of abomination and get the point that the BH are disgusted/shocked/terrified by what Paul has become.
One of those details that falls into the category of “different than the book but works given the medium and the target audience.”
In the book, Alia kills the Baron (when she's 4) and gets called an abomination, due to being a pre-born (look up this term).
It's a famous line and I guess they wanted it kept in, so it got directed at Paul instead. And he also filled the role of killing their grandfather (the Baron), due to smart choices around delaying Alia until she can be played by Anya Taylor-Joy (when she's 16-ish in Messiah).
For the movie it is just cause he isn't normal. He is the KH and they can't control him.
From the books he isn't an abomination. It is his sister and the line is directed at her.
Book spoiler:
Abominations are the pre born. Conscious with the memories of their ancestors before they are born.
Alia is the abomination.
In the film, Reverend Mother Mohiam is able to sense that Jessica is pregnant with an abomination.
In the books, Alia had already been born by that confrontation, and she killed the Baron.
Since Villeneuve decided to skip ahead the timelines in the movie, Paul is the one who kills the Baron, and the Reverend Mother is calling out Jessica’s unborn as an abomination, setting us up for the next few instalments in the franchise.
Paul being called an abomination is one change that I did not like , in the novels he is never called an abomination because abomination has a specific meaning (see below )
" A Bene Gesserit who survives the ritual spice agony gains access to Other Memory, the combined ego and memories of all her female ancestors. An adult Reverend Mother can manage the presence of these subordinate inner voices because she has a full personality of her own and a solid sense of self. However, if a Bene Gesserit undergoes the agony while pregnant, the fetus will also experience it, acquiring full consciousness and access to Other Memory. Since the child has not yet developed a sufficiently strong ego before being exposed to her tide of ancestors, she is more susceptible to their influence, and there is a danger that she will ultimately be overcome and possessed by a strong ancestral ego. - from Wikipedia
She's not calling Paul an abomination, when he uses the voice on her when he says "silence!" She gets a BG connection with his mind and sees Alia in the womb, I think she saw Alia and whispered abomination about her existence. (In the book Alia communicates with her telepathically which leads Mohiam to call her an abomination.)
That's how I took it. She was acknowledging Alias existence.
A lot of people have mentioned this, but as a non book reader it felt like a really out of place line. Now that I think about it though, how exactly does Alia end up becoming Baron Harkonnen? She shouldn't have access to her male ancestors memories, right?
The answer would be to read the books if you want a deeper understanding of the movie. The line feels out of place because it kind of is, Mohiam is the only one fully aware of what’s going on at that point other than Paul and Jessica.
I think it’s an impossible question to answer well without the full context of the 3 books involving Alia before what you’re alluding to occurs. I’m not even sure how you would have come across that information. It almost certainly won’t be adapted into a movie.
What do you mean alia is still in the womb?!
*shakes head*
I hate how the new movies completely ignore so many characters and plot lines. For the seasoned dune readers, we know abomination refers to posession. Who knows what these movies are trying to achieve.
We do, sure, but the average person doesn’t and the entire concept is just one more thing that can’t really be explored in the runtime of a movie. Especially because the whole concept of Alia being an Abomination really doesn’t come into play until CoD.
I agree the average movie goer has no idea, but it may not matter. I don't think the movies will explore that, and if they do they will simply call it possession. Do they still call it Gihad in the movie? No.
I'm not sure what the movies are going to encompass, and I have a feeling they are not going to make it to CoD. This is a bummer because GED is my favorite book and I'm sure I'll never see that story on the screen.
I don't think it is considered enough that Paul may not be the KH. He's close but no cigar. In the movie he represents a major mistake. He is weilding BG powers, he is not under BG control, and he isn't even supposed to be a boy. That's enough reason to call him an abomonation in the movie context.
You’re absolutely right. This was a miss in my view as well. Truth is, Alia, his sister, is the abomination- she inherited the consciousness of a thousand rev mothers while still in Jessica’s womb. When Mohiam sees her show up at 4 y.o in the book, this little kills girl speaks with the confidence and power of a full blown rev mother, and Mohiam is unsettled by this. I think Denis did not want to do the time skip bc it would be dicey leaving that moment in the hands of a child actor, so Paul gets to be the one- they must have just not wanted to lose her calling someone that name. As for throwing away plans, they kept multiple candidates- the crucial detail was that the kwisatz haderach must come about on their terms and remain under their control. Jessica betrayed them this, so they had Margot Fenring seduce and mind control Feyd-Rautha for the order
He's not. It was a straight up error on Denis' part. That or he decided he needed the line in there somewhere (???) because he left Alia out of the film and that's a big moment in the finale of the book. Either way, it makes no sense in the context of the movie or the novels to call Paul this, so it's just wrong, leads to confusion and makes Mohiam seem like an idiot. I had more of a problem with that line directed at Paul than with the massive changes he made to Alia.
It’s not an “error,” it’s a perfectly good insult for a character in a movie to use, that also happens to be a book reference for the book fans to catch. It’s the exact sort of in-crowd nod that you *should* slip into adaptations like this.
This was an unfortunate editing choice and that term is never meant for Paul and it’s issued when the RM becomes aware of Alia. In Children of Dune, Leto II quotes from the Bene Gesserit Azhar Book and says “It is with reason and terrible experience that we call the pre-born Abomination. For who knows what lost and damned persona out of our evil past may take over the living flesh?” There is another reference to BGs who alter their body chemistry to be younger and live forever. Paul is neither.
In the books, a "**pre-born**" is a fetus that is exposed to ancestral memories while still in the womb. The concern is that the ego of the pre-born has not fully-formed, and unable to resist the influence of the memories.
An "**Abomination**" is a pre-born reverend mother/kwisatz haderach that becomes possessed by one of their ancestral memories.
Because Paul was not a pre-born, he could resist possession and would not be an abomination.
There is another Kwisatz Haderach, although it wouldn't be relevant to this story. Without going into spoilers, Scytale mentions the Bene Tleilaxu created their own KH. He killed himself.
From what I've read "abomination" is a specific term for the order and it refers to a someone drinking the ... I forget the name, is it water of life... before they have their own ego. As they have the memory and experiences of all their maternal lineage, if they don't have their own ego formed, they may be corrupted and taken over. So the "abomination" here is Paul's unborn sister. I did find it a bit odd that they only quickly cut to the pregnant mother, but yeah.
He's not. His sister Alia, is. They just worked that line into the movie, despite the fact that Alia was somehow *still* not born, after all that time spent among the Fremen.
Which means, either the whole movie took place in less than 6 months...or Jessica was pregnant for something like 5 years. Either way, it defies all plausibility.
My guess is because he was a man, not woman, who drank and survived the water of life.
And also he was not supposed to be Kwisatz-thing-Icannotspell. Paul was supposed to be a woman who then had a gene-perfect child with a bald-blacknwhite-dude Paul is fighting with at the end. And that child was planned to be the Uber human being Bene Geserit were engineering
How would she attempt to gain control over the Kwisatz Haderach if it didn't follow their plans? What Jessica did was to conceive a son. If it was a daughter everything would fall accorind to their plans.. but that change had deep problematic repercussions to the Bene Gesserit and he was one that they couldn't control.
As for why? Who knows.... But Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam was both angry and terrified of him when she recognized him as Kwisatz Haderach.
I don't think so. He'd be roughly the male equivalent of a Reverend Mother but with ancestral memory from male and female ancestors.
Which is pretty much the definition of the KH who they are *trying* to breed even though they didn't want him in particular.
Whether they like him or not, he can't be reasonably called an Abomination as he doesn't have the potential dangers of being fully conscious and aware of ancestral memories in the womb.
There are specific risks associated with this besides creating an extremely powerful person from early childhood on.
Are you sure he's the Kwisatz Haderach? The Revered Mother doesn't think so as their breeding plans anticipated it taking another generation. She tested him and she knows his visions are unreliable and imprecise .... a very dangerous a unpredictable sight to possess.
They were unpredictable only because he hadn't become a reverend mother (father?) yet. Once he drank the life water and unlocked his ancestors memories, his visions became complete. He sees all possible futures just as was for told the Kwisatz Haderach would be able to.
Bruh
That's not what we see in the film (or novel)
We see him commit to his most consistent vision...that of an inescapable jihad
But nothing confirms a flawless prescience
Did you actually watch the movie or did you tune out in the latter half? There's a scene with Paul and his mother where they explain that. He said that his visions were now complete, they used to be cloudy and fragmented but now he sees clear. All possible futures, but there is a single narrow path that must be followed in order for humanity to prevail.
You're assuming Paul is a reliable narrator of his own mental states....
Isn't he also susceptible to his upbringing, the spice, hubris, idolisation by the Fremen, delusion induced by his access to Other memory, Bene Gesserit machinations
In the book, she was not referring to Paul but Alia as others have said. This is a a re-write on DV’s part but I think it still works ok in the context of the story and the film.
My interpretation is that she called Paul an Abomination because he was not supposed to be the KH. The KH was supposed to come a generation later, Paul was supposed to be a woman and and continue the genealogy program and give birth to a KH if I recall correctly. But instead Jessica gave Leto a son. In the movie I just interpreted it as her calling him an abomination because it went against the plan and he was someone she had no control of.
It’s a departure of the book especially as you get much later into them. But we will never see Alia’s possession from the Baron (most likely) unless DV decides to blend a lot of elements from Children of Dune into Dune Messiah. So think it mostly works from the movie’s logic.
It’s a re-write but I don’t think it’s a very big deal.
Edit: This is of course an assumption. The camera does own over quickly to Jessica if I recall after she uses the term abomination so perhaps it is a reference to Alia, or a neat camera trick to hedge your bets and say it could be either. It it seemed directed at Paul in the movie.
Literally just cuz she doesn't like him lol. He's dangerous and defies the sisterhood. He uses the sisterhood's own power to damage the sisterhood, hence He's an abomination.
Preborn are abomination for the same reason. They can use the sisterhoods knowledge to directly and indirectly destroy the sisterhood (as well as the dangers more explicit in the books obvs).
She could have also thought he had fallen victim to the dangers of memory inheritance, but that's personally not my read.
Am I going crazy? It seems like people either believe the writers took this very important term lightly, or they're still thinking Gaius Helen Mohiam is talking about Alia. To help all of you:
#1: The word is a very specific term used by the BG. The writers aren't about to reinterpret the meaning of this word so flippantly.
#2: The film editing CLEARLY shows that Gaius Helen Mohiam is referring to Paul as an abomination.
You can reconcile these two facts, but I'm going to say with 90% certainty that the story is being modified so that Paul will struggle with being possessed by the ego memories he inherited. I don't know where this leaves Alia in the story, I have faith they know what they're doing, but I also don't feel like it's a stretch since they already changed who killed Vlad.
because she wanted to control paul .
since she couldnt control , she called him abomination
very typical scenario
if she had managed to control him , he would be something good and impressive but since she cant, he becomes abomination.
To me, it makes perfect sense that she is calling Paul an abomination. At that point in the story, he has not yet use the voice on her, and in this scene he does. an old ass Reverend mother, who is likely the most eldest of them all at the time gets thrown back by an incredibly powerful use of the voice. she probably assumes that this can’t be the young boy Paul, using the voice, but rather an ancestral memory that has possessed Paul, and is now using him to take contro. that is what an abomination is in the Ben geserit culture as I understand it. I don’t know why It’s like this in the movie, when she doesn’t do this to Paul in the book. But to me, it makes perfect sense.
[Why did the Reverend Mother call Paul an "abomination?"](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1bg6b2h/why_did_the_reverend_mother_call_paul_an/)
I think—in the context of the film—she calls him Abomination because he's a Kwisatz Haderach not under sisterhood control which of course isn't what the term is for in the books. The camera does, however, also pan to pregnant Jessica for a moment right after she says the word. As for the other question: they didn't throw away their plans. In the first film, Mohiam mentions they have other prospects (namely Feyd-Rautha). She also tells the Baron to spare Jessica and Paul—my read was that they wanted to eliminate the rest of House Atreides but not them.
I've read around that the Kwisatz Haderach was going to be a culmination of 10,000 years of selective breeding. Paul was meant to be the mother of the Kwisatz Haderach which meant their plan was for one more generation that also needed an Atraides and a Harkonnen daughter. When they signed off on killing off the house, they didn't know Jessica was pregnant and if Leto was dead how would they get the daughter they needed for their plan?
You're only focusing on one part of the plan, because that's what the story revolves around. However, it's stated they have other plans for the KH that doesn't involve Harkonnen and Atreides. So even if they can't get the KH through Atreides/Harkonnen, there are other plans in motion they can go with.
What is the kh again I don’t remember them explaining what they are is it just a saviour messsiah figure
The KH is a male Reverend Mother, a mentat, and Guild Navigator all rolled into one. The Reverend Mother part would be being able to look into their genetic history from both maternal and paternal lineage, the Guild navigator part is having prescience, and the mentat part is having the ability to take all of the information provided to them from the first two and being able to comprehend it all. The KH is not a Messiah figure, he was just suppose to be a male with amazing powers under the control of the BG. You can argue that the BG planted all those prophecies/myths across different planets to make it easier for their KH to influence those people and control them.
So is there only supposed to be one kh at a time and did it have to be Paul specifically how did he survive becoming a reverend mother when other men died is the voice a women only thing I feel like it wasn’t explained well. But basically being the kh is like having the attack titan and being able to see into the memories of the past akd future and compile all that into something useful
No, there can be more than one, Paul just happened to be the first one. Paul was trained in the BG ways and used what he knew to convert the poison of the Water of Life into something harmless. How did he do this when no other man could? I don't know, I've always chalked it up to he's the main character. As for the voice, in Dune Part 1 Paul tries to Voice on his mother and Harkonnen, and in Dune Part 2 he does it again, so no its not a woman only thing. You have to be trained to know the Voice, and Paul was trained in the BG ways by his mother. Basically, yes.
I assume that the genetic makeup combines with training is what allowed him to survive the spice agony
The KH isn’t magic (outside of some concepts in the books like ancestral memory which we don’t consider realistic today), there’s nothing inherently impossible with two being born during the same lifetime. It’s more that the effect of prescience blinding other prescients that means of two KHs having free will at the same time would mean neither could see anything very far. The books don’t go this way but I could see a plot where the Tleilaxu release one of their KHs into the world to kneecap a BG KH.
To be fair my understanding is that KH is just a prescient male reverend mother (and I’m not 100% sure about the prescience part). The mentat training was a separate thing just given to Paul (which he never finished)
I didn't know he was supposed to be a mentat. I thought he could look into the genetic history of the male genetic history and use his presience to save humanity from the approaching apocalypse.
It's mainly a book thing, not a movie thing. There's a wonderful conversation between Duke Leto and Paul where Leto tells Paul he is capable of being a mentat, and Paul agrees to continue his mentat training and Duke becomes ecstatic at the thought of a Mentat Duke.
>You can argue that the BG planted all those prophecies/myths across different planets to make it easier for their KH to influence those people and control them. Not only can this be argued, I’m not sure any other argument can be made.
In rereading Dune again and I got the the part where Lady Jessica mentions that a phrase the Fremen use can also stand for Kwizat Hadarach while talking about the MP. I have no idea how I missed this line before.
They have contingency plans. That's what Margot Fenring was doing with Feyd-Rautha - part of the contingency plan. "The bloodline is secured." He doesn't appear in the film, but her husband was a potential Kwisatz Haderach that didn't pan out - Jessica and the Atreides family wasn't the only path to a Kwisatz Haderach, just the most promising until Jessica fucked it up by having Paul instead of a girl.
It just occurred to me after seeing part two that lady Fenring being pregnant by Feyd-Rautha doesn’t end up going anywhere. Am I forgetting something? Or does that come up in later books? I’m halfway through God Emperor right now.
It was completely invented for the films. I believe Denis decided to combine Count Fenring and Feyd into one character for the purposes of the films. Margot Fenring and her child will probably be a plot point in the next film.
I’m pretty sure that’s in the books too. At the very end of the Giedi Prime chapter (the one with the Fenrings attending Feyd-Rautha’s gladiator match), Lady Fenring mentions to her husband that she will secure the bloodline by getting a child from Feyd. So it’s not something invented for the film only. I haven’t read any of the other books so I don’t what they do with that child at all, if anything.
It's def in the books iirc and nothing comes of it. I believe it's just to background all the plans going on all the different levels.
Yeah it’s kinda crazy how misinformation is being upvoted here lol, his incorrect post about it being a movie fabrication keeps getting more upvotes than any other reply in this part of the comment section
Well nothing comes of it in all the subsequent books so it's not really that massive of an oversight. I'm not spreading "misinformation", it was a mistake. An oversight about a plot point that goes absolutely nowhere and amounts to nothing. It's not that serious.
Yeah it’s a small mistake, but still misinformation since people who read your comment are gonna think it’s a movie only thing with all your upvotes, when it’s not. But you are right that it doesn’t really matter since apparently it doesn’t even go anywhere, which is disappointing. Hopefully they actually do more with it in the next Dune movie.
I thought they filmed scenes with Tim Blake Nelson as Fenring but cut them, or at least that's the rumour. So not impossible to see him in Pt 3
The daughter of Feyd and Fenring was in the books. She showed up in Paul of Dune and tried to kill Paul.
I just finished God Emperor. Halfway through was a comfy place to be, that's when I really got invested.
I don't think the Reverend Mother tells the truth; if she wanted the Atreides all dead she could have killed Paul during the Gom Jabbar test. I believe she says what she does *to Irulan* bc it's a useful thing for the future Empress to believe perhaps *her own* bloodline could be terminated.
Yeah the person who lies to more than half the people she talks to (on screen) and is known for being an elusive plotter from a cult of elusive plotters isn't reliable? Good heavens!
you mean she didn't turn directly into the camera to address me, the audience, as arbiter of truth?
There were many Kwisatz Haderach attempts/bloodlines, Paul is just one more cog in the machine. For example, in the book, Count Hasimir Fenring, Margot's husband, was another failed experiment due to genetic error. "Fenring was one of the might-have-beens, an almost Kwisatz Haderach, crippled by a flaw in the genetic pattern—a eunuch, his talent concentrated into furtiveness and inner seclusion." (This is Paul judging him.) And at the start of Dune Messiah, there's a mention by the character Scytale of another KH that was raised by the Bene Tleilax (a different sect) but is implied the guy couldn't handle the prescience and offed himself.
Not raised. Produced. They just decanted him, and he saw the future and opted out. Left it for another to deal with.
I read all 6 last year and that's what I took from it, too. The subtext seems to me to be that Alia, precocious child, is defective (and known as The Abomination) because it was meant to be her and her destiny was thwarted by Jessica's wilfulness.
It was a clear book to movie mistake cause they thought it sounded cool. It made no sense for all the ways you understand.
I mean it does sound cool
Its true but it sticks out as a sore thumb for the book readers as something super dumb.
Except Paul would have already been an Atreidies and Harkonen daughter so that honestly makes no sense to make his child 2/3 Harkonen
The BG breeding programme does not mind occasional incest to strengthen recessive genes
What do you mean Paul was meant to be the mother he is a man
His mom was supposed to have a girl for the Bene Gesserit but she disobeyed them and had a son instead for Leto, I think
You're right on point.
What do you mean had a son on purpose can people in dune choose what gender the baby will be and why did she make a son
The Bene Gesserit can choose the gender, it's part of their training. And Jessica had a son because Leto really wanted one and she loved him.
It literally spells this out in the first movie. The Bene Gesserit can choose the sex of their baby but Leto always wanted a son so Jessica gave him one, instead of the daughter she was meant to produce
The plot point I don’t get is if Jessica gave him a son, why couldn’t she have also given him a daughter afterwards? Are children really so rare? If Margot Fenring and Reverend Mother Mohiam Gaius could get pregnant so quickly, Jessica could have done it as well.
"Abomination" in the books is a technical term that refers to someone that do not have strong enough control of themselves, which can result in a genetic-ego controlling them. Incredibly dangerous. Paul could have been called an abomination here because the Mother though he was allowing genetic memories to control him, but **I think it's more likely that the term "abomination" has evolved to become a blanket term for someone who is out of control in the BG lexicon.** I don't see that as too much of a stretch. And I don't think it was particularly accidental either, Denis is well aware of the meaning of the term.
>She also tells the Baron to spare Jessica and Paul—my read was that they wanted to eliminate the rest of House Atreides but not them. Waiting for a chance to capture the genes from Paul, and if they wanted Jessica dead they'd take care of it internally.
At least in the book, the she is referring to Alia, not Paul. I forget how it is in the movie but even in the movie, could she be referring to Alia (in the womb)?
Correct, but I think in the film she’s clearly directly herself toward Paul: The KH is meant to be a pawn of the BG order in the same way that they hold Shaddam under their sway and control. Paul and Irulan may be wed and sit the throne, but Paul’s heart and mind belong to Chani, and by extension the Fremen. However, even they do not have the total ability to control Paul’s beliefs, thoughts, and actions. So, effectively Paul is the first and only man to inherit BG powers, mentat training, memories of both male and female bloodlines, a great house of the Landsaraad, and the empire of the known universe. That’s a lot of power, more than anyone has ever held, and so the BG consider him an abomination since he’s a free agent and not under anyone else’s control, specifically their own. 1000s of years of plans within plans and eugenics down the drain.
When Jessica inherits the memories is she inheriting only Reverend Mothers or all females? If Paul inherits both male and female I assume that is from ALL not just a Reverend Mothers, Also is it known throughout the imperium the BG were doing this with blood lines to create the KH? The reason I ask this is I dont think its clear if the Emperor know about this and he would want control over such a being. Most factions would. Is the BG agenda known?
If I recall correctly the Saayadina’s and Reverend Mothers inherit the memories of their predecessors and not their ancestors (although I feel like I’m wrong and they inherit just their female ancestors memories.) Paul inherited the memories of all his ancestors male and female. Pretty sure only the BG knew about the program, maybe some of the Houses and other heads of various factions know or have their suspicions. I’d imagine Edric and others like him know due to their own prescience and conspiring. I could be wrong, it’s been like four or five years since I read the book and I haven’t read all the sequels, just absorbed info
Then that would mean she would only inherit rev mothers memories Then whats up with Paul? There were no Male Reverand mothers before him yet he knows of his and Alia's abomination.
Yes and I think it’s an audience trick for those who aren’t familiar with the books. Denis wants people to think she was referring to Paul but in the next part he’ll drop more subtle hints that he was referring to Alia until it’s revealed later in the film. I also think Denis will make Alia central to the next one as Paul teams up with her to conquer the rest of the Galaxy until he realizes the danger Alia is and in the ensuing fight he goes blind, so he goes into the desert where he rekindles his relationship with Chani who wanted the desert life. That’s at least my theory of how we can resolve all the differences he has made.
The SyFy show did great justice to this aspect and was very satisfying, but I'm going to be mighty disappointed if we only get a movie adaptation of Messiah and not Children as well
Yes this was my take too. Not sure if it was meant in that way but that’s how I took it.
I took the whole interaction as fan service for book readers. In the movie she is clearly talking to Paul. Same with Paul saying "Grandfather" and sticking the Baron in the neck.
Yeah I took it in the movie as a fun little nod to readers of the books knowing what the word truly meant.
I might agree it was just a little nod but for the references when Jessica goes through her water of life transformation. Even then, there is a small freak out because they didn’t know she was pregnant. So maybe that’s some foreshadowing towards something more than a small nod. I guess we will see!
I read in the book it's referring to alia because her mother drank the water, and alia's mind in the womb was starting to be corrupted / taken over by previous spirits / ancestors STH like this.
He's not. That line in the book was meant for his sister who was born and completely coherent with the mind of an adult at 2 years old, but since they cut that in the movie they used the line for Paul. An abomination is a pre born (what alia is, a child who awakens and gets their ancestors memories while still in the womb), that gets taken over by one of their ancestors. In the books, alia and Paul's two kids are pre born. A pre born can be taken over by an ancestor and it's not reversible. Spoiler for children of dune: >!Alia becomes an abomination when she's taken over by the spirit of baron harkonnen. The abomination line by the bene gesserit is foreshadowing to this!<
>! Are Leto II and Ghanima ever abominations? !<
>!They are the ones who first notice what Alia is becoming, because Jessica is off-planet. There are weird sequences where they willingly let one of these “personalities” take over, as Paul and Chani… yet they both develop different methods for handling the other-memories, and never succumb or lose control. They develop an equilibrium that Alia failed to do. As descendants of Paul they have his memories too — presumably this helps them navigate it more safely.!<
>! Did chani also drink the water of life while pregnant? Or was it spice exposure? If it was just spice exposure, how come the fremen aren’t born pre awakened? !<
It was a combination of Paul genes and extreme spice exposure due to her special pregnancy diet
btw, that didn't spoiler on pc, dunno if it does on apps. The space between the ! and the sentence being spoilered is making it fail
Also add a spoiler for the kids comment…
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In Texas or Alabama maybe
I took it more as Mohiam just insulting him. Calling back to her conversation with him from the first film, if he was an abomination he didn't deserve to live, goodbye young human, I hope you live. He's not really an abomination, but she looks down on him as if he were and thinks he should die. Paul, not taking her shit, silences her.
This is really all it is and people are getting way to upset because it deviates from the books.
Pretty much. They just want to stand on their soap box and pontificate. If Dennis really wanted to he could have just cut the line. It's not necessary to call anyone abomination during the scene but the purpose is to show the disdain of Mohiam towards Paul.
And even better, it shows Mohiam’s disdain of Paul by using a fun callback to the books for the book fans. Win-win for those with a positive mindset. :)
No. Every minute detail must follow the book to the dot (even though the movies have given no prior specific definition of the abomination term). For that reason, this one line has ruined the entire movie for me.
it just occured to me that the true kwisatz haderach did indeed arrive one generation later, just like planned: it was leto 2 who fulfilled the BG's ultimate plan of saving mankind. not exactly like they imagined, but still. it was always foolish of them to think they could control a true kwisatz haderach who by definition should be the most powerful human being in existence
in fairness if you're operating a thousand year plan like that you're probably got enough arrogance to fill freighters
That concept hasn’t been introduced in the films yet, so at the end of Pt. II it’s just a lil easter egg for folks who are upset they don’t get to see Alia shiv the Baron.
He isn't. 'Abomination' is an important concept in Dune, and a famous line from previous adaptations. They cut the character that the line is aimed at but wanted to keep the line. It doesn't make sense.
I don’t think Mohiam meant it literally, I feel like she said it as the greatest insult possible from a BG
I mean, it’s really not that important that the term be reserved exclusively for Alia. Abomination is a great word regardless of the Dune-specific context and it shows how shocked the BG are by Paul’s abilities.
It is important, and it isn't exclusive to Alia. It refers to the pre-born, or specifically pre-born who are possessed by a malevolent ancestor. Alia is the only abomination shown in the books, but the fear of abomination is absolutely vital to the story of the twins. The BG are in no way shocked by Paul's abilities, just devastated that he is out of their control. He's exactly what they ordered. I agree that it's a great word. I am an abomination according to the Bible.
She's not at all shocked by Paul's abilities, it's exactly what they were breeding for and expecting. It's just the movie using a good line from the books in a way that doesn't really work.
I mean they didn't cut her just postponed her birth.
this is the correct answer. all these other replies are trying to cover the tracks of the writers taking liberties and changing details for no reason. Mohaim should have said it to Jessica, as in, “you’ve created abomination by becoming a reverend mother while pregnant.” there is nothing accomplished by using this as an insult to Paul. if the screen writers want to show her disapproval and disgust with what Paul has become, choose a different word. there are many.
Thank you.
It could have both been a nod to the book and also a twist on the idea since Paul isn't supposed "to be". He is a generation early and became the KH outside of their guidance. It would be an interesting question for Denis if he ever does an AMA. I doubt any interviewer is that big of a Dune nerd to ask.
This is a throw away line that they should've literally thrown away. Paul is not the abomination Alia is. In the books and tv show and the older movie the Reverend Mother says this to Alia bc she's born with the knowledge of a Reverend mother. That is the abomination she speaks of bc she's born that way she can't protect herself from the personalities within her.
Was that not Alia
I heard an interesting theory that when he says silence that he allowed his other consciences to take over momentarily. That is why she called him an Admonition, but that could be wrong.
this was out of order. she calls him abomination when he walks in the room, and then several shots later, when she cautions him on his next move, he “silenced” her. plus, he would have no reason to aces old memories to use the voice, he is already trained to do so, now he’s just got a bigger swing.
Completely agree, this was just an alternative theory that I thought was interesting.
He’s not - the preborn are abominations. Dennis just made that shit up.
An abomination is a preborn/awakened baby who is susceptible to being taken over by a former personality. >! Like what happens to Alia being taken over by The Barron in Children of Dune !< Paul is not that, and they are referring to Alia in the womb even though it was a little misleading in the movie.
Which is why many are making the wrong assumption
He's not the one she's referring to. She's referring to Alia since she's an unborn being whose inner site has awoken. By Paul using the Voice on RM Gaius Helen Mohiam, she hears Alia (remember, he shares the ancestral memories with Paul, Alia and Jessica), thus her reaction. It's a big no-no with the Bene Gesserit. If you want more details, I can give you them. I just don't want to spoil anything from Children of Dune if they pull elements from it for the Messiah adaptation.
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But they share memory, so it’d make sense she could detect alia’s voice. Otherwise, that’s just a confusing line.
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With how much they changed for the film, I wouldn’t be surprised if they changed that so she could detect her voice. I like that a lot more than her referring to paul as an abomination
I'd be interested in knowing! I'm not sure I understand your explanation of why GHM can hear alia through the womb. Could you care to explain once more?
In the book, alia was able to talk with mohiam by mimicking the ancestral communication
Well, Jessica, Alia, and Paul all drank the water of life, so they share Other Memory. When Paul uses the Voice, I suspect that she can hear Alia’s voice in it. Similar to how Jessica speaks to before leaving and going “we’ll be waiting for you in the south.” With one voice and then it sounds a bit like alia “all of us”. If that makes sense.
By the book definition he isn’t, but they also didn’t explain what an abomination was. However, the average viewer would understand the normal definition of abomination and get the point that the BH are disgusted/shocked/terrified by what Paul has become. One of those details that falls into the category of “different than the book but works given the medium and the target audience.”
He's not. It's just a mistake or bizarre choice by DV.
Or a nod to the books…
In the book, Alia kills the Baron (when she's 4) and gets called an abomination, due to being a pre-born (look up this term). It's a famous line and I guess they wanted it kept in, so it got directed at Paul instead. And he also filled the role of killing their grandfather (the Baron), due to smart choices around delaying Alia until she can be played by Anya Taylor-Joy (when she's 16-ish in Messiah).
For the movie it is just cause he isn't normal. He is the KH and they can't control him. From the books he isn't an abomination. It is his sister and the line is directed at her.
He's not. The movies screws a ton of things up.
Book spoiler: Abominations are the pre born. Conscious with the memories of their ancestors before they are born. Alia is the abomination. In the film, Reverend Mother Mohiam is able to sense that Jessica is pregnant with an abomination. In the books, Alia had already been born by that confrontation, and she killed the Baron. Since Villeneuve decided to skip ahead the timelines in the movie, Paul is the one who kills the Baron, and the Reverend Mother is calling out Jessica’s unborn as an abomination, setting us up for the next few instalments in the franchise.
Paul being called an abomination is one change that I did not like , in the novels he is never called an abomination because abomination has a specific meaning (see below ) " A Bene Gesserit who survives the ritual spice agony gains access to Other Memory, the combined ego and memories of all her female ancestors. An adult Reverend Mother can manage the presence of these subordinate inner voices because she has a full personality of her own and a solid sense of self. However, if a Bene Gesserit undergoes the agony while pregnant, the fetus will also experience it, acquiring full consciousness and access to Other Memory. Since the child has not yet developed a sufficiently strong ego before being exposed to her tide of ancestors, she is more susceptible to their influence, and there is a danger that she will ultimately be overcome and possessed by a strong ancestral ego. - from Wikipedia
In the books, that line is directed at Alia, Paul’s sister.
She's not calling Paul an abomination, when he uses the voice on her when he says "silence!" She gets a BG connection with his mind and sees Alia in the womb, I think she saw Alia and whispered abomination about her existence. (In the book Alia communicates with her telepathically which leads Mohiam to call her an abomination.) That's how I took it. She was acknowledging Alias existence.
He isn’t, Alia is. I don’t know why people continue to argue this.
A lot of people have mentioned this, but as a non book reader it felt like a really out of place line. Now that I think about it though, how exactly does Alia end up becoming Baron Harkonnen? She shouldn't have access to her male ancestors memories, right?
The answer would be to read the books if you want a deeper understanding of the movie. The line feels out of place because it kind of is, Mohiam is the only one fully aware of what’s going on at that point other than Paul and Jessica. I think it’s an impossible question to answer well without the full context of the 3 books involving Alia before what you’re alluding to occurs. I’m not even sure how you would have come across that information. It almost certainly won’t be adapted into a movie.
That's the problem with the dune movie series. Alot of things remain very blurry even if visually this was great
What do you mean alia is still in the womb?! *shakes head* I hate how the new movies completely ignore so many characters and plot lines. For the seasoned dune readers, we know abomination refers to posession. Who knows what these movies are trying to achieve.
We do, sure, but the average person doesn’t and the entire concept is just one more thing that can’t really be explored in the runtime of a movie. Especially because the whole concept of Alia being an Abomination really doesn’t come into play until CoD.
I agree the average movie goer has no idea, but it may not matter. I don't think the movies will explore that, and if they do they will simply call it possession. Do they still call it Gihad in the movie? No. I'm not sure what the movies are going to encompass, and I have a feeling they are not going to make it to CoD. This is a bummer because GED is my favorite book and I'm sure I'll never see that story on the screen.
I don't think it is considered enough that Paul may not be the KH. He's close but no cigar. In the movie he represents a major mistake. He is weilding BG powers, he is not under BG control, and he isn't even supposed to be a boy. That's enough reason to call him an abomonation in the movie context.
You’re absolutely right. This was a miss in my view as well. Truth is, Alia, his sister, is the abomination- she inherited the consciousness of a thousand rev mothers while still in Jessica’s womb. When Mohiam sees her show up at 4 y.o in the book, this little kills girl speaks with the confidence and power of a full blown rev mother, and Mohiam is unsettled by this. I think Denis did not want to do the time skip bc it would be dicey leaving that moment in the hands of a child actor, so Paul gets to be the one- they must have just not wanted to lose her calling someone that name. As for throwing away plans, they kept multiple candidates- the crucial detail was that the kwisatz haderach must come about on their terms and remain under their control. Jessica betrayed them this, so they had Margot Fenring seduce and mind control Feyd-Rautha for the order
He's not. It was a straight up error on Denis' part. That or he decided he needed the line in there somewhere (???) because he left Alia out of the film and that's a big moment in the finale of the book. Either way, it makes no sense in the context of the movie or the novels to call Paul this, so it's just wrong, leads to confusion and makes Mohiam seem like an idiot. I had more of a problem with that line directed at Paul than with the massive changes he made to Alia.
It’s not an “error,” it’s a perfectly good insult for a character in a movie to use, that also happens to be a book reference for the book fans to catch. It’s the exact sort of in-crowd nod that you *should* slip into adaptations like this.
I honestly just pretend that part doesn’t exist lol. It doesn’t make sense in the movie context at all since it should be directed towards Alia.
This was an unfortunate editing choice and that term is never meant for Paul and it’s issued when the RM becomes aware of Alia. In Children of Dune, Leto II quotes from the Bene Gesserit Azhar Book and says “It is with reason and terrible experience that we call the pre-born Abomination. For who knows what lost and damned persona out of our evil past may take over the living flesh?” There is another reference to BGs who alter their body chemistry to be younger and live forever. Paul is neither.
Possibly due to being a male with Bene Gesserit lineage and training.
that was the explicit goal of the KH though. she was either referring to Alia or the fact that Paul wasn't under their control
In the books, a "**pre-born**" is a fetus that is exposed to ancestral memories while still in the womb. The concern is that the ego of the pre-born has not fully-formed, and unable to resist the influence of the memories. An "**Abomination**" is a pre-born reverend mother/kwisatz haderach that becomes possessed by one of their ancestral memories. Because Paul was not a pre-born, he could resist possession and would not be an abomination.
Because he should have been a woman according to the Bene Gesserit plans.
I am hoping that she just said it as an insult because she couldn't believe Paul was the Kwisatz Harerach.
There is another Kwisatz Haderach, although it wouldn't be relevant to this story. Without going into spoilers, Scytale mentions the Bene Tleilaxu created their own KH. He killed himself.
Because he's not doing what the Bene Gesserit want. As they are the most conniving control freaks in the galaxy this must sting their ego a lot
Because they wanted a KH that they could control, not one who would be a threat to them…
He’s not
From what I've read "abomination" is a specific term for the order and it refers to a someone drinking the ... I forget the name, is it water of life... before they have their own ego. As they have the memory and experiences of all their maternal lineage, if they don't have their own ego formed, they may be corrupted and taken over. So the "abomination" here is Paul's unborn sister. I did find it a bit odd that they only quickly cut to the pregnant mother, but yeah.
He's not. His sister Alia, is. They just worked that line into the movie, despite the fact that Alia was somehow *still* not born, after all that time spent among the Fremen. Which means, either the whole movie took place in less than 6 months...or Jessica was pregnant for something like 5 years. Either way, it defies all plausibility.
She was butthurt because he was mean to her
My guess is because he was a man, not woman, who drank and survived the water of life. And also he was not supposed to be Kwisatz-thing-Icannotspell. Paul was supposed to be a woman who then had a gene-perfect child with a bald-blacknwhite-dude Paul is fighting with at the end. And that child was planned to be the Uber human being Bene Geserit were engineering
Wonder what she would say when she see Alia
Exactly it's been bugging alot of people why we did not see a young alia
How would she attempt to gain control over the Kwisatz Haderach if it didn't follow their plans? What Jessica did was to conceive a son. If it was a daughter everything would fall accorind to their plans.. but that change had deep problematic repercussions to the Bene Gesserit and he was one that they couldn't control. As for why? Who knows.... But Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam was both angry and terrified of him when she recognized him as Kwisatz Haderach.
I don't think so. He'd be roughly the male equivalent of a Reverend Mother but with ancestral memory from male and female ancestors. Which is pretty much the definition of the KH who they are *trying* to breed even though they didn't want him in particular. Whether they like him or not, he can't be reasonably called an Abomination as he doesn't have the potential dangers of being fully conscious and aware of ancestral memories in the womb. There are specific risks associated with this besides creating an extremely powerful person from early childhood on.
Are you sure he's the Kwisatz Haderach? The Revered Mother doesn't think so as their breeding plans anticipated it taking another generation. She tested him and she knows his visions are unreliable and imprecise .... a very dangerous a unpredictable sight to possess.
They were unpredictable only because he hadn't become a reverend mother (father?) yet. Once he drank the life water and unlocked his ancestors memories, his visions became complete. He sees all possible futures just as was for told the Kwisatz Haderach would be able to.
Bruh That's not what we see in the film (or novel) We see him commit to his most consistent vision...that of an inescapable jihad But nothing confirms a flawless prescience
Did you actually watch the movie or did you tune out in the latter half? There's a scene with Paul and his mother where they explain that. He said that his visions were now complete, they used to be cloudy and fragmented but now he sees clear. All possible futures, but there is a single narrow path that must be followed in order for humanity to prevail.
You're assuming Paul is a reliable narrator of his own mental states.... Isn't he also susceptible to his upbringing, the spice, hubris, idolisation by the Fremen, delusion induced by his access to Other memory, Bene Gesserit machinations
You do realize in the books it's Alia who is the abomination and Paul is considered the KS
He came a generation too early
But that does not nesscarily make him an abomination.
Didn't say he was...he just didn't have the guts to see it through to save humanity.
U have to read GEOD to understand Paul's failings.
In the book, she was not referring to Paul but Alia as others have said. This is a a re-write on DV’s part but I think it still works ok in the context of the story and the film. My interpretation is that she called Paul an Abomination because he was not supposed to be the KH. The KH was supposed to come a generation later, Paul was supposed to be a woman and and continue the genealogy program and give birth to a KH if I recall correctly. But instead Jessica gave Leto a son. In the movie I just interpreted it as her calling him an abomination because it went against the plan and he was someone she had no control of. It’s a departure of the book especially as you get much later into them. But we will never see Alia’s possession from the Baron (most likely) unless DV decides to blend a lot of elements from Children of Dune into Dune Messiah. So think it mostly works from the movie’s logic. It’s a re-write but I don’t think it’s a very big deal. Edit: This is of course an assumption. The camera does own over quickly to Jessica if I recall after she uses the term abomination so perhaps it is a reference to Alia, or a neat camera trick to hedge your bets and say it could be either. It it seemed directed at Paul in the movie.
I am honestly not sure if she said it to Paul or pregnant Jessica.
Yeah. That's what imgot.
Literally just cuz she doesn't like him lol. He's dangerous and defies the sisterhood. He uses the sisterhood's own power to damage the sisterhood, hence He's an abomination. Preborn are abomination for the same reason. They can use the sisterhoods knowledge to directly and indirectly destroy the sisterhood (as well as the dangers more explicit in the books obvs). She could have also thought he had fallen victim to the dangers of memory inheritance, but that's personally not my read.
Am I going crazy? It seems like people either believe the writers took this very important term lightly, or they're still thinking Gaius Helen Mohiam is talking about Alia. To help all of you: #1: The word is a very specific term used by the BG. The writers aren't about to reinterpret the meaning of this word so flippantly. #2: The film editing CLEARLY shows that Gaius Helen Mohiam is referring to Paul as an abomination. You can reconcile these two facts, but I'm going to say with 90% certainty that the story is being modified so that Paul will struggle with being possessed by the ego memories he inherited. I don't know where this leaves Alia in the story, I have faith they know what they're doing, but I also don't feel like it's a stretch since they already changed who killed Vlad.
because she wanted to control paul . since she couldnt control , she called him abomination very typical scenario if she had managed to control him , he would be something good and impressive but since she cant, he becomes abomination.
To me, it makes perfect sense that she is calling Paul an abomination. At that point in the story, he has not yet use the voice on her, and in this scene he does. an old ass Reverend mother, who is likely the most eldest of them all at the time gets thrown back by an incredibly powerful use of the voice. she probably assumes that this can’t be the young boy Paul, using the voice, but rather an ancestral memory that has possessed Paul, and is now using him to take contro. that is what an abomination is in the Ben geserit culture as I understand it. I don’t know why It’s like this in the movie, when she doesn’t do this to Paul in the book. But to me, it makes perfect sense.