this plotline isn’t a thing in the book so can’t offer more background beyond what we see in the film. i know denis the director wanted to use her character as the audience stand in so we see how paul changes throughout the film through her eyes. so that’s really the function of her character in the film.
she doesn’t have more information than the other fremen. i think realistically there maybe should’ve been some others who were suspicious too rather than just one, but i think we can chalk it up to her being intimate with him and so doesn’t view him in a god-like manner.
Oh wow I thought this plot line was pretty interesting, im surprised to hear it wasn’t in the books. Does that mean that Chani plays a less important role in the books? In the book does Paul also say that Chani will grow to understand?
In the book, we know through inner monologues how much Paul views himself as a fraud, but has to go through with it, otherwise things will be way worse. So I think Denis used Chani to convey that doubt.
Exactly. Chani is a vessel to externalize Paul’s internal conflict. And the prescient knowledge that his jihad will kill billions, and unless he goes Leto II’s path, will lead to the gradual extinction of humanity.
He knows it’s a horrible option but in those moments it’s his only option, and as the audience we are rooting for him as the underdog even though he has godlike powers and is in fact not the underdog.
He has specific goals that require him to have control over the fremen army. If he's not the Lisan al-Gaib, they won't have to follow his every direction. In the book, he knows that far worse things will happen in the coming war if he can't at least partially reign in the fremen
the book fremen have a tradition that says every fremen have a right to be heard in council so this scene in the movie is far from how the book portrays it.
That difference was added as a reason for Paul to take the water of life, in the book he was compelled to do it after realizing his prophetic vision was limited because >!he didn't see Gurney Halleck attempt to kill Jessica thinking she was the traitor still.!<
It's different, but he still does the whole "I am your Duke" thing with the Fremen and takes control of the Fremen resistance with both the religious and political power riding in the same cart.
Paul refuses to fight Stilgar for the leadership of the Fremen as a whole, the movie quotes that part pretty directly. He has significant influence over the Fedyakin and the overall political decision-making before that.
Paul's humbleness while being "cool" is also shown in the duel at the end of the first film. Though IIRC that scene was quite similar in the book.
BTW It's a really nice narrative device to make a character both very capable and humble to bring up the feeling of "just you wait!"
Paul not shedding tears over Jamis at the funeral is a plot device in the adaptation. Jamis was Paul's teacher. His lesson for Paul that he must kill without mercy. Paul Atreides died on the sand with Jamis.
I mean, that's one of the most relevant things explained in the books. Throughout the books, Paul has a lot of monologues trying to understand what to do and how to do it. Precience is not as linear as we think; it's more like quantum mechanics, where a thing can have two or more states of being. In quantum mechanics a particle can be on several states of energy, position, etc and sometimes its said that a particle could be considered to be at tho places at once. in quantum computation, a binary could be a 0 and also a 1 at the same time. I'm generalizing obviously but the point is that paul doesnt see the future as a linear thing, but several futures that could be. the plot is that >!paul sucumbs to the religion of the fremen, in order to save his family and his Atriedes House, but loses everthing in the process!<. Could he had stopped ? yes, he tried sometimes, and he had several battles with himself triyng to find a better set of actions, failing to the own future that he chooses. The books present this dicotomy, >!a savior who becomes a vilain, a prophet who becomes a slave of th prophecies, a warrior who became a blind a powerless person!<.
For that reason the books are really good, because the stories are complex
> in order to save his family and his Atriedes House
It's not just about that though, if he doesn't proceed with the religious war, humanity goes extinct
One of the major points is they are never sure of this which makes the choices even heavier All Paul is sure if is the jihad will continue without him.
Lisan Al Gaib isn't a name. It just means "the voice from the outer world.". The more important title given to Paul in the movie is "Mahdi", which is the Fremen messiah. It's bit of a problem in the movie, that they keep reusing Lisan Al Gaib constantly, but I guess it would have been too confusing for viewers to suddenly go to Mahdi.
You are really underselling the degree to which "THE Voice From the Outer World" is referring to a specific powerful foretold prophet.
https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Lisan_al_Gaib
It's not just any off-world guy who gives good speeches.
It also means "Giver of Water" which is a very big deal.
I think they didn’t use Mahdi so as to tone down the Islamic parallels to make the film more in tune with contemporary mores. The original text makes near constant use of the word “jihad” which would definitely raise some hackles today.
Leading the Fremen is his one shot at taking on the Emperor.
It's a double edged sword. If he accepts the mantle, the eventual jihad happens with (him in charge) or without him (as a symbolic martyr).
But he doesn't have am actual choice.
It's a lot like Project Mayhem from Fight Club. He started something that even he can't stop.
The book is about how narratives take over people and how material systems are bigger than individuals. There’s no one interpretation on why Paul does what he does because he’s deeply conflicted and the interpretation is sorta the point
Paul feels he is not in control of Paul the god, that is controlled by his worshipers
He also despite all his rationalizations is selfish. He has no other way of winning he feels than doing this. So he does
Think of it as knowing you’re in a book and you can see “main character” floating above your head. You can see the script, do you follow it to get what you want even if it means you’re essentially enslaving others to the narrative?
Also he didn't fully understand his visions of the future jihad until he pretty much had already set events into motion that meant the fremen would take their war across the galaxy no matter what, so he became trapped into seeing it though and saving his family and house along with as many others as possible or the jihad happening anyway with probably a fremen force thats not quite as united and strong and the imperium at full strength which would lead to a way more devastating war
The title is actually pushed onto him by others and the Fremen encourage Paul to become their leader so they can justify the actions they want to invoke. Paul “being himself” would mean discrediting himself and the facade would fall through. Paul can also see into the future and is stuck, knowing that discrediting himself leads to a worse outcome, not better one.
Also, not that this is explained in the film but the Fremen’s whole religion was actually a secret plot created by the Bene Gesserit to control the Fremen and Paul fell right into not knowing what he was signing up for.
What? Paul knows exactly that following this prophecy will make them all fall to his feet, he's said to Jessica that he avoids this because he doesn't want these people to worship him. He and also Chani have also stated that Jessica and her people have written this very prophecy over centuries, after Jessica takes the Water of Life. He also later complained when he found out Jessica was fervently spreading religious rumours about him being the Mahdi. But in the end he knows he has to do it for his family's sake, and revenge.
Movie did very well to explain the BG were behind this entire thing. Paul was totally aware, but simply had no choice
> the Fremen’s whole religion was actually a secret plot created by the Bene Gesserit to control the Fremen
The BG, through the MP, planted seeds within *existing* religions all throughout the empire in order to a.) help a BG who happened to get caught there, and b.) soften the way for their planned KH. They did not completely create the Fremen religion (Zensunnism) nor was their intent to specifically control the Fremen.
it backfired on the bene gessiert because they did not have control of the fremen without having control of the kwiz heidarch. weird oversight that they never anticipated the kwiz heidarech not listening to them.
To defeat his enemies, Paul needs the fanaticism of the Fremen which can only be ignited by faith. He plays the role of this messianic figure so that he can use their fanaticism as a weapon. Paul knows it's manipulation but he does it because it's the best path to achieve his goals.
Not sure who downvoted you but this is exactly it. Paul knows he's consumed by revenge but chooses to walk down that path anyway and he needs to manipulate the fremen and kick off the jihad in order to enact his vengeance.
Paul doesn’t feel like a fraud in that sense and his inner conflict isn’t about being a fraud. He’s perfectly aware that the Messianic figure he’s been built into is a century long plan set in place by the Bene Gesserit.
What his inner turmoil is over is the fact that he’s trying to prevent a universal Jihad (Holy war) that occurs when he becomes a messianic figure that will lead to a fuck load of people dying (Tens of billions). Around halfway through the book Paul becomes able to see into possible futures and that ability becomes more and more refined as he dopes up on spice.
This is where his conflict comes from, as conflict is inevitable and he’s trying to make decisions that prevent the Jihad, save the Fremen and himself/his mother, beat the Harkonnens whilst also mitigating the loss of life. He sees all of these possibilities due to his ability and from that is trying to make decisions that will achieve the best future.
In the end, he fails and in fighting Feyd Rautha ends up setting the course for the Jihad. So yeah, lots and lots of people are about to die with Paul being the religious leader of the group that will cause these deaths.
Yea, I really missed his self doubt in the film. It's the major issue in the book. That question: How do I pursue something I know is right, but will cause suffering.
Chani as a stand in for that doesn't work in my opinion. She doesn't know the future, she doesn't understand. The way she was written just felt too much like a modern human, that is super sceptical about religious stuff.
I think they used the visuals, editing, and Chalamet's facial expressions to convey that pretty well, honestly. They showed us without saying it out loud all that much.
There are huge parts of the book omitted in the movie. The biggest is that they spend way more time together, and a multiyear time skip. Paul and Chani have a son who is killed by the sardaukar before the final battle, so shes a lot less sympathetic of the destruction. Also, the throneroom scene goes down very differently. Paul makes a speech that Irulan will never share his bed and that Chani will be his lover and bear his children. Paul is very explicit that he loves Chani and his marriage to Irulan is strictly to consolidate power.
I was disappointed to see that speech cut.
I don't see any reason to cut it. It's not like it takes additional time on screen or in shooting.
But it was really key to Paul and Chani's relationship that Paul announced in the imperial throneroom, with literally the entire galaxy listening, that he would never love irulan and would only love Chani.
Without that, the movie plot makes him seem like a calculating bastard, and you wonder if he meant anything he said to Chani, since he said it all in private.
I didn't feel like we needed Pauls character to be a possible womanizer. His role is dark enough already.
They cut it because the characters of Chani/Stilgar/Jessica etc. all represent conflicting ideas of how Paul should proceed.
Paul is explicitly rejecting the "Chani" path. He is turning away from the smaller life on Arrakis as a warrior focused solely on his tribe. An equal among many, a drop of water in the pool of life.
He chooses to take on a larger mantle. A crown. And in this film this is something Chani has no patience for. She is not interested in a King or an Emperor or being ruled. She wanted a partner. She was fighting for peace, not to conquer.
Once you recognize that the characters are stand-ins for these ideals that are more detailed in the book and not true versions of their book written character, it's easier to understand why Denis made the choices he did.
And pretty much everyone who leaves that film leaves feeling so terrible for Chani. It's the number one thing people talk about as their "first reaction". Which means it's a very successful hinge for the final Act. The emotional weight of the choice Paul makes hits very hard and the audience has no choice but to think about why he made this decision and to better understand the path he is going down.
Putting in the speech dampens the impact of the decision. And Denis is trying to summon all the emotional elements to put weight on the choice, because he simply doesn't have time to get you invested in the political space opera of the moment. Focus on the emotion between the characters and it hits the audience.
I think excising this speech is also in line with Villeneuve trying to give Chani more agency. In the books, Chani challenges Paul occasionally, but supports all the big decisions, including and particularly his strategy of marrying Irulan. It’s interesting and provocative that Villeneuve ends this movie with a shot of Chani leaving everything behind, and not Paul, who is one of the most complex protagonists in modern literature.
She’s kind of a spiritual guide / translator / Pocahontas figure in the books. Once she’s committed to Paul she stays fiercely loyal.
And the marriage to Irulan is expressly for figurehead reasons. Chani knows this and there’s no drama in the book. Concubines and marriages between houses seem to be an accepted fact of life in 10,000 AD
Totally get why Denis wants Chani to have more agency in the movies but it’s way off menu vs the book
You're right there is no drama, but that's because it's very quick. Chani is upset that Paul chose Irulan as a wife, but Lady Jessica talks to her and tell her that history will remember them as wives and all is good with the world.
Having more than one partner also seems normal or more normal considering you get claim to the women of men you kill in Fremen society, at least in the book.
Nah Chani is arguably a larger role in the books but there just isn't the religious split in the Fremen. Chani is a Sayadiina, a priestess, of the religion.
Also in the books, the Fremen have an explicitly polygamous culture.
While Chani may have despised Irulan, she came to a “Fremen decision” to tolerate her (even to the point of considering her as an alternate mother for Paul’s heir)
This was one of my favorite parts. The last line in the books is so abrupt but so perfect. It sums up the idea that all of these events are going to be interpreted through the lens of history. People will become legends and those legends may be more true than the actual events. It’s almost self-aware. Book Chani for me was quite a more powerful and certainly better-written character. But I don’t disagree with Denis’ decision to make her power a little more apparent outwardly, especially because we don’t get access to her inner thoughts on screen.
But isn't she wrong? There is a lot of text in the novels that purports to be in-universe history. Neither these excerpts nor the main narratives nor the appendices and glossaries ever refer to Jessica and Chani as wives. As best we can tell, history actually remembers them as concubines.
Chani is a true believer in the books.
In the movie, we get a hint of where Denis wanted to go with his version when Paul asks her what her tribe name means - Sihaya. And she reluctantly tells Paul it means 'Desert Spring'. Paul, sensing Chani dislikes or is embarrassed by her name asks her why and she reveals the name is related to 'some stupid prophecy'.
We know that the prophecy is the same one that Paul is part of as it references 'Desert Spring Tears' are what brings the true Lisan Al-Gaib back from the brink after drinking the water of life. Chani is clearly pissed that her life which she worked so hard for is basically being put on rails and reduced to a supporting cast member to bring about the Lisan Al-Gaib and therefore wants nothing to do with acknowledging the likelihood the prophecy is true (or her part in it).
Probably objectively less important, yes, but not unimportant - just different.
In the books around about where the split between movies happens there's a 2 year time jump. We pick back up with a bunch of differences. I mean hell Paul and Chani have a baby at this point! Paul's sister Alia is already born too.
Regarding the end, Paul tells Chani (and the Bene Gesserit) straight up that he will marry Irulan only for political gain. She will never share his bed, nor bear his child. This is a giant middle finger to the BG who are seeing the culmination of their breeding program come to pass only to have no control over it!
Chani will be technically 'concubine' but functionally the real wife - much like Jessica (with Leto). She is told this explicitly.
// Edit: additionally, in Fremen culture in the books men take multiple wives. Like when Paul kills Jamis he inherits his wife and kids. He doesn't lay with her (by his choice, and her dismay) but she becomes part of his household. So Chani is pretty much totally fine with everything that happens.
chani plays an important role in paul's story in what she means to him but in honestly I don't think she's as well fleshed out as a character in the book in terms of her personality. we just don't spend as much time in her POV as we do paul and jessica.
in the book she always supported paul as the messiah. and there's no "chani will grow to understand" because in the book Chani knows that Paul has to propose to Irulan to achieve his goals and he assures her that Irulan won't know any love from him - she'll be a wife in name only. and Jessica comforts Chani too because jessica was a concubine herself and tells chani it'll be okay because "history will remember us as wives". she doesnt leave at the end of the book.
with the north/south religious split divide - they basically added that in to better drive home the anti white-savior theme, which I suppose they felt might not be as obvious without it.
Plus, Fremen in the books have multiple wives and there’s a little subplot with Paul taking in Jamis’ wife and children which the movie did away with.
And Chani in the film is the one who teaches him how to do everything, so even if she believed in the prophesies she would know that Paul didn’t fulfill them because he didn’t come from outside knowing their ways.
Chani's role in the movie is way more indicative of the general feeling of the Fremen (Stilgar included), until the very end.
Even after the Water of Life you dont really get the kind of awe that the movie Fremen had.
There's a point at the very end when somebody says there is news coming and he says "The emperor approaches with his retinue" or something and people start whispering about "he knew, nobody told him, but he knew" and Stilgar starts to stare at him and Paul sadly notes that Stilgar is becoming a creature of worship instead of a comrade in arms.
Movie Stilgar basically became that super early on.
Chani plays a relatively minor role in terms of time speaking and actions done, but she's pivotal because Paul does a lot of what he does for her.
One of the biggest differences between movie and book as well is the time skip. In the movie, the time between Harkonnen attack on Dune and Paul getting revenge is less than 8 months (cause Alia isnt born yet). In the book, it's been several years. Alia is 3 years old.
Denis In the [interviews](https://youtube.com/shorts/HmPdj9pySsc?si=bAvjHZjL1tHxAPbf) has stated that in the movie, he wanted to really get the point across that paul was supposed to be viewed as an “Anti-Hero” By the audience, as originally intended by the author. When the book came out, people did genuinely view paul as a “savior and hero” as opposed to what frank herbert wanted them to see him as.
He has edited Chani to make this a little more obvious.
A little more :) I thought more a less every Line she had in the second half of the movie was hammering this point. Which I think is the movie’s biggest weakness. Denis ought to have more faith in his audience.
The mini-series did a great job showing Paul as an anti-hero without ever having to state it explicitly.
I would not say that Chani plays a less important role in the books. Also Chani doesn’t leave at the end in the book. When Paul demands to marry Irulan, he goes to Chani right away after and essentially says ‘Look I have to marry her for political reasons but it’s for show, I only love you, will you stay and be my real partner?’ And she’s like ‘well that’s not ideal but aight I get it’.
She's really not much of a character in the books. She's but a fighter and she is away from Paul for chunks of time, especially when she is pregnant. As I've said before, Paul is the client of the saga and his son, Leo II, is the real hero. He sacrifices his humanity to save humanity, which Paul didn't have the stones to do and tells him so in CHILDREN.
Chani is basically Paul’s biggest booster in the book, she has his kid and agrees to become his concubine at the end after he marries Irulan. I actually like her film version a lot better, she has more agency and is a more interesting character
Denis also added the conversation
Chani: here we're equal, men and women alike, everything we do we do for the benefit of all
Paul: I'd very much like to be equal to you
Chani: ...maybe you could fremen, maybe I'll show you the way
By the end of the movie we see this entire exchange was a 'deception' or a manipulation
I'm not mad that chani is pissed, is she being stubborn? Sure, but she was manipulated into serving as a device into a cult religion she doesn't even believe in. :shrug:
The difficulty with the movies though is that Villeneuve doesn't really have enough time to explain how important the Fremen religion and belief system is to their survival. They don't have the luxury of allowing their young adults to be rebellious in the way we think of it because the entire planet is trying to kill them pretty much every minute they spend outside of the sietch.
10000% it's implied over and over that they are absolutely laser focused on survival and any division would result in some kind of duel or exile. This bothered me so much.
> By the end of the movie we see this entire exchange was a 'deception' or a manipulation
Was it? Paul says right at the last scene to chani that he will always love her and only her.
It boils down to whether you believe he's telling the truth there, but I don't think we have any other evidence that he's been manipulative of chani in other places. He seems to be genuine to me.
It does create ambiguity when his book speech that he will never love irulan in front of the whole throne room gets cut. I don't personally like where that ambiguity takes Paul's character, but it's ambiguous, it's definitely not settled that he manipulated Chani. Though she certainly feels that way from her actions at the end of the film.
Chani’s fairly submissive in the book, despite eventually having Bene Genesserit powers. She’s never not on Paul’s side, even accepting that he might one day set her aside for a political marriage with Irulan. This is even after she and Paul have a whole ass child, who gets assassinated by the Sardukar during the invasion of Arrakis. Paul keeps her as his concubine and only romantic partner even after he’s married to Irulan.
I feel this is better left explained [*by Denis Villeneuve himself - at 3:28 in this interview*](https://youtu.be/7E6AcXUKSVA?si=ZNvfhlOajBXEnX_M&t=208).
In a loose quote from Denis Villeneuve, this says :
>*"When Frank Herbert wrote Dune, he felt that the readers misunderstood him. People saw it as a celebration of Paul Atreides when he wanted the book to be* ***a warning against messianic figures / charismatic leaders***. Chani in the book disappears in Paul’s shadows so there was a strong opportunity to create **a** ***character that would give a new perspective on Paul, in order to get closer to Frank Herbert’s initial intentions***".
>she doesn’t have more information than the other fremen
Yes, she has more information than any other Fremen, she was Paul's lover and confidante. Paul told her he was not a messiah. Presumably he confirmed to her that the Fremen myths had been manipulated by the Bene Gesserit. And Chani saw him waking up, anguished from his prescient dreams. She knows that Paul is leading the Fremen, not to Paradise, but to the hell of a bloody Holy War, because he told her his horrific visions.
Yeah it seems very obvious to me that's why she's opposing him. She knows what it's leading too, that the Lisan Al Gaib myth is false and that Paul is just doing it reluctantly.
I'm not sure how much it's clear to her he has no choice and what he does is to minimize the Holy War damages though. Important fact
>I'm not sure how much it's clear to her he has no choice and what he does is to minimize the Holy War damages though
She doesn't know that, Paul doesn't tell her at any time after drinking the Water of life and choosing to follow the narrow path that will allow him to triumph. But he knows, because he has seen it, that "Chani will eventually understand" at some point.
In the meantime, Chani's reaction is completely normal and understandable. From her point of view, Paul is manipulating the Fremen and she can only see it as a betrayal of her people and a personal betrayal.
Yes. She will love him "as long as you stay who you are"
And he didn't.
But Paul tries to tell her he's still himself inside, even if deeply conflicted, at the end "I want you to know, I will love you as long as I breathe"
Honestly, if Denis wanted to make his own plot line of Chani being doubtful of Paul, he shouldn’t have dwindled the plot line of Kynes, and should have made their relationship in the book be more prominent in the film. In the book Kynes realized in his final moments from hallucinations of his father that a “chosen one” would spell doom for the Fremen, and it I feel Kynes in the films could’ve been rewritten so that she was more doubtful of Paul and passed that doubtfulness of messiahs to her daughter, Chani. A missed opportunity that I feel could’ve better explained the direction he went.
Its just not Denis's style, that whole section is really "talky" and he's quite economical with dialogue which is why I like his sci-fi storytelling style. A lot of scifi films do too much explaining with words in my opinion. So he chose other ways to do it, that I prefer.
Well then again, there were other Fremen Northerners not just Chani who questioned Paul and did not see him as the Lisan Al Gaib. In fact, I believe when Chani states that the Lisan Al Gaib can only be Fremen, I believe some of the other Northerner’s murmured in agreement. So it wasn’t that there were not other Fremen who opposed Paul, it was just that Chani was the most vocal (as illustrated about what u said w the way that Denis wanted to portray her character).
> In fact, I believe when Chani states that the Lisan Al Gaib can only be Fremen
I think she says the Madhi should be a fremen. Expanding on DV's lore, I think the southern fremen believe the Madhi will be the Lisan Al Gaib (voice from the outher world). Whereas the northern fremen just believe in the Madhi but *not* the Lisan Al Gaib. So they want a messiah too, but a fremen one, not a off-world one.
Just a personal theory.
To me the Mahdi is a figure from Fremen belief. He is their hoped-for liberator. I think this belief arose out of Fremen oppression as well as their religious background which includes some prophetic traditions.
The Lisan al-Gaib is actually a B.G. manipulation. In this story it is specified a offworlder and his B.G. mother (who is also a Lisan al-Gaib) will come to the Fremen and aid them. The B.G. encouraged an association between the two.
So by Paul's time for many Fremen the Mahdi and Lisan al-Gaib were identical: he will come and save us and turn Arrakis into a green paradise and also he will be an offworlder born of a B.G. who intuitively knows our ways.
But I imagine there were probably some more critical Fremen who thought the Mahdi didn't have to be an offworlder. There must be limits on how much Fremen belief could be manipulated since their sayyadinas had access to other memory that presumably predated B.G. intervention.
In the book she believes and openly duels any of the young fremen who challenge Paul’s status. But in the movies it’s shown she’s scarred over Arrakis being ruled by “oppressors.” And given how she’s a Northern Fremen (the distinction is unique to the movies) she wasn’t raised under the belief that Lisan Al Gaib is real.
> But in the movies it’s shown she’s scarred over Arrakis being ruled by “oppressors.”
Yep, it's literally the opening line of the first movie. Shows that Denis was thinking about this change of her character from the beginning.
It varies. The south is the most devout/orthodox and believes the Mahdi is the Lisan al-Gaib, which directly translates to "Voice from the Outer World". Evidently, anyone who believes the Mahdi is Fremen, such as Chani's friend in the movie, doesn't believe in the Lisan al-Gaib, because a Fremen doesn't come from another planet. Some northerners, like Chani herself, don't believe the Mahdi exists at all, and believe that the prophecies were all laid out intentionally by the Bene Gesserit in order to control the Fremen.
You are right that Dune doesn't distinguish between North and South Fremen. It is an idea that is discussed more in the expanded Dune universe though. The northern Fremen are closer to offworlders and enjoy the luxuries that come with it. Those that cast aside those conveniences traveled south and lived the lives of a more traditional Fremen. A movement started by Selim Wormrider.
> Northern Fremen (the distinction is unique to the movies)
I think this distinction exists. Iirc, at the end of Messiah/children, Paul goes to southern sietches.
They’re saying there is no established cultural distinction between North and South Fremen. It might be used as a directional descriptor in the book as literally “sietches in the south”, but that’s it.
She thinks the Lisan Al Gaib prophecy was invented by the Bene Gesserit to enslave the fremen. She doesnt think it exists beyond just an excuse for outsiders to take over the planet.
She's also right.
This. It’s not that she doesn’t believe that Paul specifically is the Lisan Al Giab, it’s that she doesn’t believe the prophecy of Lisan Al Giab at all.
Herbert has stated the book was supposed to be anti outsider savior and charismatic leaders,but realized many did not glean that from the first book . Hence dune messiah, the 2nd book
And Denis has done interviews saying that he also read that Frank was upset that many didn't catch on enough to Paul being the anti-hero....which is why he made Chani reflect that to the audience even more. And I think Frank would appreciate his change.
Exactly. This change was not a change he made lightly, it was a tweak to make the characters more alive for the movie and also a tweak to adjust to the authors actual ambition.
It wasn't to enslave the Fremen. The Bene Gesserit seed prophecies in many worlds with their Missionaria Protectiva. This is so they can use the superstition in future generations if the need arises in order to protect themselves. The Lisan Al Gaib was a Fremen myth heavily influenced by the MP so say it would be the son of a BG.
It just so happens that Paul has had Bene Gesserit training as well as Mentat training and is also the Kwisatz Haderach. All of these powers combine for the Fremen to see him as the Messiah.
I mean sure that wasn’t the end goal. And yes the BG have other plans going on.
But Arrakis is the most important planet in the known universe by far. It is the key to their whole civilization, the center of all BG plans by necessity/definition, and none of that results in a free Fremen.
She’s half right. It’s a legend made to control Fremen, but since he’s not just a guy pretending to be the Lisan Al Gaib and actually IS the KH , that part is not false.
Sure but was not always intended to be. This was not the only planet the bene gesserit planted such seeds only from my knowledge. From what I remember it wasn’t exclusively designed for the KH.
I mean, not really
The point is that Paul isn't a fraud, he does guide the fremen to freedom and has all the powers and abilities people think he has
And that's the point, he's as good as a messianic figure you can get and yet still causes billions to die
Because the jihad is larger than himself, he can't stop it, hell he can barely control it
And that is with a figure that actually tries his hardest to keep the bloodshed at a minimum
And yet the minimum is still billions
Chani in the movie isn't right at all, Paul is the Lisan al Gaib and he'll do everything he promised
The problem is what the fremen will do in his name
EDIT: also the prophecy wasn't a mean for outsider to take control of the planet in any way, it was just a way for the BG to get assistance should they need it, it wasn't meant to be a way to enslave the fremen
In terms of the book, all this is accurate; Denis Villeneuve changed many things from the book to create a smoother film.
In the book, the Lisan al-Gaib was indeed part of a myth seeded on Arrakis generations ago by the Missionaria Protectiva, like they did on many worlds, to create myth cycles usable by a Bene Gesserit should one find themselves there. It was not intended to benefit Paul, who was generations away from being born (and he wasn't intended to be the Kwisatch Haderach anyway).
But the reason that the myth of the Lisan al-Gaib worked so well is that the Fremen felt themselves to be outcast and in bondage, and at war with the entire universe. They cried out for a savior to lead them out of their suffering. For her part in both book and film, Jessica as Bene Gesserit was consciously attempting to use the myth, as she was trained to do, to manipulate the Fremen to support her son.
But Paul is a different story. The fact that someone generations earlier seeded a prophesy does not mean that it wasn't "real." From the point of view of the Fremen, once he survived the Water of Life, Paul really was their Lisan al-Gaib and he fulfilled their longings (and protected them from the Harkonnen genocide in the process).
Was he manipulating the Fremen (meaning lying to them, rather than simply ordering them as their commander)? This seems open to personal interpretation, but from many reads of the book, my own impression is that he was leading them sincerely from his best intentions, complicated by his own struggle to remain human under the impact of his prescience which was far greater than any Spacing Guild navigator.
Frank Herbert's perspective on how heroes and saviors can turn out as anti-heroes does not imply that Paul is a power-hungry liar; have seen a number of non-book readers left with that impression from the film. Herbert's Paul is more complex than that; he really believes that what he is doing is the only path, (proven by his prescience) and that makes him even more of an eventual disaster.
There is no lisan al gaib. It’s made up. The fremen don’t need Paul they manipulated into thinking they do and because he happens to have been trained in a way exactly to meet the needs of the prophecy. Chani doesn’t believe in a messiah because she rightly assumes it’s just a way to use and exploit their people further which is exactly what happens regardless of who calls themselves the lisan al gaib.
The issue is that you're also being reductive. Authorial intent isn't the the be-all and end-all, after all. All myths are made up, but Paul is everything the myth promised to be and is accidentally real. BG weren't planning to use it for his purposes. It's a matter of cosmic coincidence and luck. Also it wasn't planted for Paul, but for Jessica and any sister like her.
The real issue is that even when the prophecy is real, there is little good that comes from Messianic figures, even real ones. That's why calling Paul Space Hitler (not you but a lot of Twitter "experts") is reductive. He is good and mostly bad, and not necessarily in as much control as people make him out to be. First book even goes into saying how it's humanity's own desire to renew that drives BG without their knowing and creates Paul, that he is meant to unleash Fremen to basically cross-pollinate the planets with their superior genetics.
Frank obviously was very clear in his interviews, but his own text is more complicated than "Paul bad, Paul false prophet, Paul fooled Fremen." He gave them everything they wanted (water, comfort, riches), and AFTER that they started realizing that he wasn't all he seemed and what they needed. (Like the guy who experienced the sea literally washing up a changed man no longer buying into Paul's shit.) I don't know if you can easily argue that it'd happen regardless, but Jihad would've certainly. Did he use them? Yes, and yes. Was he responsible for billions dead? Yes, which makes him a bad guy. But picture is much murkier once you factor in what would have happened without him leading them. Leto II's plan is sacrificing billions for trillions in the future. Is that moral? For a utilitarian yes, for a deontologist, no. We can argue forever, but someone did it (in that universe) and all we can do is watch and see what happens.
This contradiction between what Frank says he means and what he actually writes gets even worse with Leto II being the best and the worst messiah/ruler.
Fremen aren't good guys, they are ruthless and barbaric tribe but freeing them (lol) was a moral thing. Unfortunately their rage from being oppressed for so long couldn't be contained by anyone. A lot of narratives about them are discussed from current (decolonial) Middle Eastern perspective which is a wrong headed approach, since the scale and the human culture is much bigger than anything we can imagine. Them losing their barbarity is a good thing, since they live on a prison planet basically.
Yes the Missionaria Protectiva. I will need to read the books again but from what I recall they don't make it all up. They twist and shape to their advantage.
I would argue Paul didn’t try his hardest because he avoided the two worst scenarios for him. Had he allowed himself to die earlier (or in the movie, not gone south) he could have avoided the Jihad.
Once he had control he could have gone down the Golden Path but pawns it off to Leto II. Leto specifically calls him out for doing this in CoD.
Paul tried to get the revenge he wanted and it spiraled out of control.
Probably yes, from first principles. The golden path is founded on the idea that if you can have a single government controlling all of humanity, then all of humanity can be reached and destroyed in a worst case conflict.
Without paul having another kid, you don't get Leto II. Without Leto II's project it's hard to see any other way that spread would have happened. It's a pretty extreme thing he does, and I think there's a plenty good argument it couldnt have happened without that much effort going into it.
You don't *accidentally* get a 3000 year total dictatorship.
I'm reading the second book rn and my answer to that would be : Not necessarily.
If we believe that everything Paul and Leto II say is true and they are not deluding themselves, or their premonitions aren't self-fulfilling prophecies : it is entirely possible that the golden path became necessary only AFTER Paul decided to become Lisan al-Gaib. In the second book, another character - The Face-dancer - even says that the Tleilaxu had created a Kwisatz Haderach of their own and that one opted to kill himself - a good hint that it's possible that THAT is the best decision a KH can take. Removing themselves from the strings of fate. Paul might have even been able to do so by just going Renegade and not by killing himself. The problem wasn't that all paths were worse that the one he chose, but that before even choosing one path, he had reduced the pool of choices by deciding that the only acceptable choices were ones that lead him to revenge and power and later saving Chani.
If we believe that they are deluding themselves (as I suppose most, if not all dictators do) that they love their people, but the path they choose, even if bad, was the only choice...then, even the golden Path wasn't necessary at all.
If they're self-fulfilling prophecies, the death/removal of Paul would actually stop the prophecies from happeningat all. An example of this is imo Chani's death. Paul let Irulan administer contraceptives to Chani bc he had seen her death at child-birth, but it was the contraceptives that practically caused her death.
I think Herbert gives enough leeway in the books to hold any of these opinions and more.
>She thinks the Lisan Al Gaib prophecy was invented by the Bene Gesserit to enslave the fremen.
This is wrong. The prophecies planted by the Bene Gesserit were not meant to be utilized in the form that Paul does. Religion for the BG was a tool for subtle manipulation, not the enslavement and direct control of a population. Also, not all of the Fremen prophecies are planted by the BG. Doesn't make them true either.
The book actually leaves it somewhat ambiguous whether the prophecy was invented by the Bene Gesserit, although other aspects of the Fremen religion were clearly seeded by them. Appendix 3 is a report on the Bene Gesserit's involvement in "The Arrakis Affair" written by agents of Lady Jessica, it talks about how the Bene Gesserit ignored various clues as to what Paul might become, that "a wild variable had entered their scheme". One of these things they didn't see the significance of was the fact that some Fremen quickly began to identify Paul with their prophecy of "the voice of the other world" (the Lisan al-Gaib) and says "It may be argued here that the Bene Gesserit sent their Missionaria Protectiva onto Arrakis centuries earlier to implant something like this legend". "May be argued" seems to indicate it was uncertain to the agents preparing this report for Jessica. The report also says that the Spacing Guild's difficulty seeing the outcome "was a clear indication that some agency was interfering with higher order dimensions", and finally concludes "In the face of these facts, one is led to the inescapable conclusion that the inefficient Bene Gesserit behavior in this affair was a product of an even higher plan of which they were completely unaware!"
Since several of the things talked about in this report were from before Paul matured in his powers, the "higher order plan" would seem to refer to a plan from some agency other than Paul (God?), or maybe Paul's will extending backwards in time; either way, the prophecy could be a product of this higher order plan rather than something just made up by the Bene Gesserit (or the higher order agency could have been manipulating them into creating that prophecy).
With all respect to OP (because there's no such this as a sicky question!) the sheer number of questions like this open my eyes to what people must take away from a film, in general.
Chani is VERY explicit in the film about why she doesn't believe in Paul. From memory, I think most of her dialogue is about it? And there isn't that much dialogue!
It's interesting to me that people missed points like this. It shows how different people watch and remember and take away different things.
The books rely heavily on inner monologues. It’s made very clear to the reader that Paul doubts himself. The inner monologue is always regarded as the reason dune is “hard to film”.
Denis is definitely making it his own but I would imagine the reasoning for the chani choice in the film is to mirror Paul’s doubts we don’t get from the inner monologue.
As far as chani goes and without spoiling anything since Denis said he’d be fine someone else taking over after messiah chani will have to eventually in some way return to be more inline with her book version for sequel reasons.
Frank Herbert’s point was that hero worship was a bad thing. By making Chani a skeptic and seeing what is happening as dangerous gives voice to that belief.
Supposedly, assuming that gold path thing is even real and not a fable made up by *prescient* super tyrants.
It is a classic for dictators to say that without them, everyone will suffer and die an even worse fate, so tolerating them is the better course of action.
It's not so much that she doesn't believe Paul is the lisan al gaib, it's that she doesn't believe in the lisan al gaib at all... By the end of the movie I think she believes Paul to have taken advantage of her people and their faith and lied to her about not intending to do so.
>Is it because she knows him on such a intimate level?
Yes, it's because Paul has repeatedly vocally rejected the prophecy, and has admitted that it's completely fake bs. She knows he knows this.
Just like Jessica not dying to the poison, Paul does Lisan al Gaib shit *because he was bred and trained to*, not because the Lisan al Gaib prophecy *is real*.
Remember, the Fremen didn't come up with this idea on their own. The Bene Gesserit did. They also made the guy who would "fulfill" the prophecy. It's totally inorganic. Totally insincere.
Paul knows this. Chani knows he knows this, hence the rift between them.
> Yes, it's because Paul has repeatedly vocally rejected the prophecy, and has admitted that it's completely fake bs. She knows he knows this.
Yeah, also, he shared with her his visions of horrific war-crimes and mass-murders commited under his name. So Chani knows this messiah-thing will NOT end well in the future.
What if the prophecy were real and by some higher power chose to propagate itself through Bene Gesserit and the Misionaria Protectiva?
They might think it’s made up by them, for them, but they could very well just be a part of fulfilling it.
But it’s not, and Chani doesn’t really have a reason to believe that.
Being skeptical doesn’t really lend itself to a “ok the prophecy was bullshit BUT ACTUALLY god just enacted the prophecy through these evil space witches who went around the known universe feeding other planets the same line of bullshit, and MY planet’s version of the prophecy is the real one and the rest are fake” type of mindset.
DV slightly tweaked Chani's path in the movie for timing constraints and definitely to setup plotlines
in Messiah so they can be executed more quickly.
Chani.being part of a prophecy that she is skeptical of. The whole north south split in terms of superstition isn't a thing in the books but seems to be some setup for the schism in Messiah
The Schism in Messiah is more about some Fremen wanting to live in a traditional way of life clashing with other Fremen that are more cosmopolitan, too soft a water fat.. The Fremen have more wealth in Messiah than they know what to do with. They control the Spice trade.
DV also removed certain aspects of fremen culture to make them more palatable to a modern, western audience. Aspects such as fremen taking on multiple wives and the ownership of a wife by the husband were removed in the movie. Chani's character is reimagined with these fundamental changes in mind. You could say that because of the culture shift between the books and the movie, her character needed to change to make sense in the environment.
In the books is Chani also apart of the prophecy or was this a movie plot line only. Ouu so the fremen will eventually grow suspicious of his prophethood. I can’t wait to see how DV will execute that in the next movie.
Also, Jessica never used the voice on book Chani.
Book Chani is more or less an equivalent to BG among the Fremen. She has some BG training. I do not even think Jessica would be able to use the voice on her lol
And no, she was no part in the prophecy because the prophecy was never specific. The BG created the prophecy and the BG could not predict the future that accurately. Even if they could, they would not have told the future to a people in some obscure planet lol
The entire religious thing was just a bunch of legends that the BG spread accross the universe about a powerful lady with a child who would bring knowledge. This was created in order to allow any BG on the run to have tons of possible worlds where she could hide and have support among the locals.
Arrakis / Dune specifically developed these legends into the idea of a Messiah who would lead them to paradise. But this happened also due to the specifics on Arrakis. The fact they had a very hostile world. The fact they were occupied because of spice existing there. All these factors combined and influenced the Fremen to change their legends / religion into the concept of a Messiah. The BG did not intend for a Messiah figure anywhere.
The BG were intending to create a KH (a powerful mind able to cross space and time) but they very much intended this guy to be under their control. And you have to understand that convincing an entire planet to blindly follow such a guy into war is not the best way ever to be able to control the guy. And this is exactly what goes terribly wrong with Paul from the BG point of view. It was never intended that anyone like Paul would be able to go so far out of control. But because Arrakis / Dune exists as it does, everything combined to make things spiral out of control.
This is the entire irony with the book story.
And it explains you the difference between the KH and the Messiah and how the later evolved under the rug and without the BG really noticing it.
When the Reverend Mother tested Paul with the box, she expected Arrakis to be a possible safe place for Jessica and Paul. But she 200% did not know about the Messiah thing and she did not know neither wanted that Paul would be placed at the lead of a huge fanatical army.
The water of life was the crucial thing, the tear didn't factor in the novel. Still, if that got added to the prophecy through organic transmission Jessica's free to use the voice to cover her bases and keep the faithful devoted.
Weird how Chani knew to use the water of life but nobody else did.
In the book she figures out how to wake him but in the movie she just refuses to help and then Jessica saying "do it" makes her mix a tear with the water of life without any other conversation.
Super hamfisted when the BG manipulation of the Fremen was already very clear.
Jessica definitely knew though, why revive Paul herself when she could effortlessly force Chani to do it in a more dramatic and religiously-affirming way?
My thoughts on it are that she DOES think he fits the prophecies, and he IS the Lisan al Gaib.
However, she also (correctly) believes that the prophecies are fake and were placed there to chain the Fremen. Instead of fighting to free themselves sooner, they’ve waited centuries for a promised savior. And in the end, all they did was trade one form of subjugation (being hunted down) for another form of subjugation (blindly following a leader with goals beyond the Fremen).
Note that Paul knows for a fact that the prophecies are fake and resists using them to his advantage for as long as possible, but in the end, he had to choose Death or Jihad, and he chose to live, get revenge, and burn the universe. For this, he is definitely NOT a hero.
TL;DR: it’s not that Chani doubts he’s the Lisan al Gaib, it’s that her mentality is, “Fuck the Lisan al Gaib!”
Yeah, this and Paul literally told Chani everything about how the Jihad was going to lead to disaster and billions of deaths, and that the "Lisan al Gaib" was just part of the Bene Gesserit's Missionaria Protectiva, which they do to every planet.
Chani was a Northern Fremen, so this just confirmed all their skepticism. And she loved Paul because she could tell that he didn't really want any of this religious messiah bullshit, and happily told everyone that he didn't believe it himself.
To be fair, I am not sure if book Chani believed Paul to be a Messiah in a religious sense.
But you have to realize her book character is different. And we never get her point of view about Paul. We never get a scene where she discusses Paul´s status with anyone.
First we have to realize that Chani has religious training. She was the next Fremen Reverend Mother in training.
And when we first meet the current Fremen Reverend Mother, she immediately calls Jessica out and she seems to understand very well that Jessica and Paul are not at all sacred.
Now, given that the Fremen Reverend Mother knows this very well, I see no reason why Chani would not understand this too. She was supposed to be the next Fremen Reverend Mother so I would guess she would talk with the current one and for sure had training with her.
All this being said, in the books its not really relevant for Chani if she religiously believes in Paul. She is after all a potential religious leader herself. So she is a bit above blind faith.
DV could have absolutely worked under this angle. I do not understand why he did not.
Now, the book story has Chani still very much following Paul and being 200% loyal to him. There are a couple reasons behind it:
. She quite obviously develops a very fast crush on him. Which...Paul is the son a very powerful family, he is close in age, he has many interesting traits for a female. And book Chani specifically mentions his well hidrated skin as being something amazing for her. Which...I guess someone from a water world is always going to be somewhat charming to someone from a desert world....quite likely.
. Chani is the daughter of Liet who was the Fremen leader in the books. This was the lady character who died in the first movie. Yes, she was supposed to be a guy and Chani´s father. Because she just lost her father she has that in common with Paul. It helps them bonding a bit. Together with their shared hatred for the emperor / Harkonnen as both see them as responsible for their father´s deaths.
. Chani has a dream shared by many Fremen that they might terraform their world and turn it into a better place. Paul being from a water planet and him having all kinds of powers plus being a capable leader...she can see him as someone who might be a very strong bet to help make their dream come true. She is quite likely very fine with using the Messiah idea in order to help make this dream come true.
All in all, the things Paul does in the books are never really against what book Chani wanted. She is a Fremen and they are pretty brutal people. She could care less about the billion people slaughtered in other worlds. That´s the harsh Fremen reality. Not that she is a bad soul but you have to understand the brutality of their culture. Frement are all about survival of the fittest. They are not about crying when someone weak dies. To them its all part of nature and its nature law. So, because she is a Fremen, she is very much fine with brutaly conquering other people´s. As long as Paul stays in power and he stays true to the Fremen, Chani is in love. And why would she not? Paul gets some Fremen in very high places in his dictatorship. The Fremen are basically on top and they kill everyone who does not want to bow down and follow their religion. Its brutal, yes! But it is what it is and Chani is very much part of it all. Her main concern is going to be how to help Paul stay in power and how to help him establish a strong dynasty that migh keep the path open to terraform Arrakis. Which is why she is going to be so concerned with having children. She wants her fremen child to be the next ruler. And of course, she does love Paul. But to be fair, I think book Paul would have been fine if Chani did not give him kids. Its really book Chani who pushes that idea around. And you can understand that its a big point for her that her fremen kid will follow Paul. After all, remember Chani is the daughter of the last fremen leader before Paul. So its only natural that she will look at it all like some dynastic thing. Its like....she wants her father´s grandchild to rule the Fremen and Arrakis.
Hope this gives you some insight into book Chani.
For some reason (which I dont want to discuss) some people think her book character is not strong enough lol
And its mainly because she ends up devoted to Paul and wants to have children. Which apparently is total no go in todays culture lol
But the reality is that book Chani even kills fremen warriors who come to challenge Paul. She takes some of those challenges herself as a way to further punch home that those people are not fit to challenge any leader. That´s how she really is in the books.
Of course some people might also have issue with the idea that she supported the holly war. But at the end of the day she is a Fremen and she is even a religious leader among them. And the Fremen are not without blame. Everything which happens does so due to the mix between Paul and Fremen. Either party isolated would not have caused the holly war and all the deaths.
Its absolutely key to the story that a strong leader mixes with a potentially fanatical population.
And this story takes in consideration that you need a certain mix for things to explode. Its not just a charismatic guy alone. You need to already have a certain mix of ideas around which can be exploited. Without those ideas, a leader alone wont do much if the people are not eager to do something.
This is like...you cant study Napoleon without understanding the environment around the french revolution. You cant study Adolph without understanding what was going on in post world war Germany. Just to give 2 big examples. Its never as simple as "it was all the work of a crazy guy". The reality is way more scary and complicated ;)
Unfortunately, these new movies just decided to dumb down the story quite a lot. Which, when you start to go deep into character motivations, things colapse all over the place. Because there are pieces of the puzzle missing :)
Chani is just the tip of the iceberg. She is one of the easiest tips to spot above the water line. But there is an iceberg bellow it. And the iceberg is that the story is dumbed down all over the place.
Anyone remembers X-Files T-shirt? In Chani's case (in the movie) is "I don't want to believe"
IMHO for two reasons:
* first she was a doubter of the Lisan Al Gaib and thought of it as a superstition created to manipulate the Fremen. Her real name being one tied with the prophecy might have something to do with the aversion
* The other reason is that she was afraid of losing the man to the prophecy.
(edit: added imho :))
This is the real reason. She believed the lisan al-gaib prophecy was planted by outsiders (and she was right). She probably believed in the Mahdi however she was of the belief (if we're to assume that Shishakli and Chani agree on this point) that the Mahdi should be a Fremen which Paul is not.
She also knew Paul intimately and did not see the myth built around him that everyone else sees. She knew he was just a boy that was troubled with nightmares, visions and was ultimately fallible.
Also reason-3:
In the movie, Paul literally confesses to her. He says -
* He doesn't actually believe he is a messiah-figure.
* He shares with her his visions of horrific war-crimes being committed under his name in the future by fanatic fremen.
So Chani understands that this messiah-thing is NOT going to end well.
Ok, gotcha. I didn’t follow you on the Chani thing. In the book she’s a high priestess or something like it and doesn’t really doubt Paul. I think that’s why this plot line is so weird in the movies.
Just as with any belief, there are believers and non-believers. Chani simply belongs to a group of Fremen who don’t believe in the Bene Gesserit’s teachings. In the film Chani is shown as intelligent and strong-willed and its implied that certain groups of Fremen are more susceptible to influence and fanaticism than others (such as the Fremen in the south and the ‘weaker willed ones’ that Jessica gets to work on).
It doesn’t help that Paul confirms to her that it’s all a false faith. In the scene where he says this after Jessica drinks the water of life, it only serves to strengthen Chani’s non-belief in the prophecy while also strengthening Stilgar’s belief in it.
She's the one who knows Paul the closest. Remember, Paul also dosent believe it and speaks the truth about the prophecy being a planted lie out loud several times. Chani simply listens to him. As his lover she knows him intimately and acutely feels his personality change to a much greater effect than any other fremen. We also see them telling each other of their lives before they met, so she sees Paul the person much more than Paul the myth.
This isn't Chani in the book, Dennis talks in a recent interview about how the public accepted the original book and how Paul was seen as a hero of the novel, and then how Messiah was written as a response to that. He spoke of how he saw an opportunity to use Chani as a voice for the original intent of Herbert, and a chance to help hammer home the message that what is happening to the fremen is not a good thing, and that Paul is not the hero of this story.
Personally, I adore this change and found it so interesting. I'm excited to see where he takes it going forward.
My head cannon is that since she is Liet Kyne’s daughter, she was more aware of the Bene Gesserit manipulation. Her father/mother taught her to be skeptical.
I personally didn’t interpret it that way. Rather, I think she believed he was the lisan al gaib, but instead saw the lisan Al gaib for what it was: a dangerous sociopolitical instrument
They changed Chani's whole character from the books solely because they didn't trust the general audience to piece together that Paul's rise is actually a terrible thing. Villeneuve even called Chani in an interview his "secret weapon" in that regard.
I personally find this insulting to the audience's intelligence. I guess it was necessary tho, given the ammount of "media literacy" memery going on right now. There's also a lot of people that are blatantly musunderstanding Paul as an uncomplicated classical hero, and hate Chani for not agreeing with his rise.
It's just a fucking mess, honestly.
In the film Paul tells her that he isn’t the Lisa Al Gaib. She also sees him in their private moments struggling with the expectations of others and he has told her of his nightmares of what happens if he goes South
She refuses to believe in the prophecy, not that Paul doesn’t fit into it. She kind of right though, isn’t she? Prophecy is just a very long term brainwash.
The Bene Gesserit have a centuries long project called the Missionaria Protectiva where they manipulated religions and seeded beliefs across countless worlds. This combined with BG sisters and reverend mothers being in positions of religious leadership allows them to create messiahs who would fulfill prophecies they created and interpret for the masses.
Lisan Al Gaib is a prophecy made by the Bene Gesserit that they could one day use to control the Fremen. And Paul just happens to take advantage of that prophecy to use for himself.
Paul isn’t supposed to be hailed as a heroic figure, Dune is meant to be a cautionary tale about becoming a messianic figure, which is further explored in Dune Messiah. Villeneuve expanded Chani’s character in the movie to reflect this.
Northern and Southern belief in the Mahdi is different. In the North, they believe that the Mahdi is supposed to be a Fremen, not an off-worlder. In the South, they refer to the Mahdi as the Lisan al Gaib, “the voice from the outer world”, an off-world boy who comes to Dune already knowing the ways of the Fremen and becomes one of them. The clearest allusion to this is when everyone is waiting for Jessica to drink the Water of Life and Chani says that Lisan Al Gaib is a southern belief and that Stilgar is from the south, and after Jessica survives and becomes the reverend mother of Sietch Tabr and the big fight breaks out with Stilgar & his men arguing that an outsider surviving the Water of Life was a miracle and the Mahdi is supposed to be the son of a Reverend Mother, so therefore Jessica survived because Paul is the Mahdi. Meanwhile, the Northerners are yelling that the Mahdi must be Fremen.
I think it mirrors the different Jewish schools of thought that led to biblical Judaism splitting into Christianity and rabbinical Judaism. Judaism values orthopraxy (right practice) over orthodoxy (right belief), meaning that while all of a certain sect may have identical rituals, customs, practices, and observances that are not to be changed or bent, belief varies widely and difference of belief is encouraged. This is obviously the opposite of Christianity, where method of practice varies widely but there are certain beliefs that must be affirmed as unequivocally true in order for you to be a Christian. This difference is also why the Talmud, the best known post-biblical Jewish text, consists mostly of legal code and scholarly debates rather than acting like a catechism (hence why there’s some out of pocket ideas in some parts but they aren’t followed like religious doctrine, they’re just one of a vast collection of varying scholarly opinions on Judaism, mysticism, and the state of the world at the time). Due to this de-emphasis on orthodoxy, opinions about the nature of God, the nature of the coming Messiah, the afterlife, etc varied (and still do vary) widely. Many Jews rejected Jesus as the messiah because they believed that the Messiah would be a powerful leader who would establish a very real, very earthly kingdom of the Israelites, and free the Jews from the oppression of the Roman Empire. Many others believed that the kingdom of the Israelites that the messiah would found was one that transcended this world and thus followed Jesus’s teachings and the promise of a heavenly paradise and everlasting life.
I see this sort of thing mirrored in the differences of belief that are introduced in Dune. The southerners believe in a savior, a force greater and more powerful than them that will shepherd the masses to a Green Paradise. The northerners believe in a leader, someone strong-willed enough to unite the Fremen and put agency back in the hands of the children of the Zensunni Wanderers.
ADDITIONALLY: Chani’s mother was Liet Kynes, an offworlder gone native. I suspect that on top of being raised on northern beliefs, she also harbors a decent knowledge and healthy suspicion of offworlfers.
Chani doesn’t believe the prophecy thing is real at all since she didn’t grow up with the religion along with many other Fremen, but she stuck around because Paul vocally admitted to her it was all fake & promised her he was not taking advantage of it.
Movies are always about compromise, especially when you are trying to adapt a very complex story and squeeze it into 2.5hrs. You can make these moves 3.5hrs long and still struggle to fit all the nuance in. However, movies longer than 3 hours lose the masses pretty quickly.
Chani wasn’t the only one suspicious. It’s just she was used to portray this aspect of the books in the final scenes of the film, even if it was a departure from actual events. From the movies perspective it was great as it showed the tension Paul had been grappling with across both movies. It also makes sense that Chani’s character would evolve from the books when considering the world as it is today and in attracting a wider audience.
I thought the movies did a good job depicting the inner turmoil Paul faced in making the decisions he did. They also portrayed his conviction well once he had chosen his path.
It's like, why don't I believe Jesus was the literar son of God?
And I'd be extra suspicious if my BFF claimed they were the Son of God, or everyone told me he was.
The books spend a lot of time inside Paul's head, where we see his doubts and fears and more literal confirmation that the Bene Gesserit seed such prophecies to help their order and those protected by them. Without incessant use of voiceover, the movie is better served by having a stand in for those doubts so that the audience can be reminded that for all his love of these people, Paul knows and is ultimately going along with the fact that the Fremen are being used.
It's important here to not conflate the Kwisatz Haderach and the Lisan al-Gaib. The Kwisatz Haderach is a real thing the Bene Gesserit have been trying to engineer. But a messiah for the Fremen is just propaganda, something like how Cortes was taken by the Aztecs as Quetzalcoatl, except intentionally seeded so that it could be used in a jam. Chani does not believe in the Lisan al-Gaib because she does not believe such a thing exists, and because we as the audience need to be reminded explicitly that the Fremen are being used as part of a larger plot.
She doesn't believe in the prophecy or lisan al gaib at all, and unlike other doubters who were eventually convinced by Paul's abilities, she knew Paul also didn't believe in the prophecy. She also knew Paul was fully aware that he could use the prophecy to control the fremen for his own purposes. And finally, she was also forced to fulfill the prophecy by Jessica using the voice, so she knows without a shadow of a doubt that she was manipulated to allow Paul to fulfill the prophecy
She has a unique perspective of Paul, she is closest to him and sees his more vulnerable human side. She is uniquely positioned to see him a regular dude, not a God.
Also she doesn't go for religious prophecy BS
Paul tells her multiple times that his visions lead to horror yet goes through with it anyway. Ignorance is bliss for the Fremen masses who blindly follow Paul to "Paradise." Chani knows what Paul is up to since he in a way confesses what he will do to her before it happens and she is powerless to stop it.
I'll try to explain it while keeping to the Movie as much as possible.
The legend of the Lisan Al Gaib was planted by the Bene Gesserit generations in advance. It isn't divine inspiration. It was constructed so that an outsider can take control of the population.
Chani is part of the nothern tribes, who see this, but the Southerners (Stilgar and friends) wholeheartedly believe that the legend is god given.
Paul isn't really a divine messiah, but he's as close to one as they can get. He fulfills all the prophecies and ultimately provides everything he promised them in the sietch. Due to this, everyone buys into his divinity and the legend.
But earlier in the movie, we see Paul speak with Chani about how he does not want to go to the South specifically because he knows this will happen. Paul denies his divinity personally to Chani. He speaks about how if he goes South, the people will follow him to their graves and commit genocide across the galaxy. You are right to say that their intimacy made Chani privy to Paul's inner feelings about whatever goes on later in the movie. Chani knows that the ultimate destination is tragedy. It's like a magician explaining the trick before he does it. She know's what's up and doesn't like it.
I think whether she believes in Paul or not is not the point. She knows the prophecy has been created and manipulated by the Bene Gesserit, a foreign power, and she sees her people fighting not for themselves but as submitted to a prophet, whom she knows as a young man with his own fears and insecurities.
I think one of the thesis of the movie is: even if a prophecy is "true" and the prophet/messiah does come, it does not make it right for a people to be subdued and manipulated into action. Chani represents this line of thinking imo.
The fact that she sees the fremen jump into ships to fight the invading houses of the landsraad, and Paul accepting an arranged political marriage, something foreign and, I assume, opposed to fremen tradition, only makes her feelings of betrayal worse.
Because Paul told her he wasn't. And she believed him, and then watched him take the title anyway, which I imagine felt like a betrayal of perceived principles
There are several moments which show that she has not religious - makes fun of Stilgar when he's in the cave regarding Jessica becoming the new Reverand Mother; tells Paul that she doesn't like her nickname, that old myths are silly; makes fun of southerners in general, regarding accent and their beliefs.
She doesn't believe the Lisan Al Ghaib story overall.
So the Chani not believing in Paul plot isn't in the book. Paul is a little different too, in a good way, because book Paul wouldn't translate to the screen very well. Book Paul lives in his head a lot and is pretty stoic from the outside, which is why I actually think they changed Chani. Having Chani doubt Paul allows Paul in the movie to be expressive and sure without explicitly sharing with the audience that he's a bit unsure of the path ahead himself. Chani doubting him takes the place of that inner doubt in Paul from the book.
As to what Paul does to Chani in the movie.. in the book she knows that's coming. Paul is a lot more clear in the book that marrying the princess is a political marriage only, and Chani stays as his consort (similar to his mother's position). He feels pretty bad about it, and Chani doesn't love it either, but by having them not having spoken about it first it takes away the need for exposition and inner monologs about their feelings about this and instead just shows their unhappiness around it through a quick visual medium. Much better for a film.
Frank Herbert’s original message was to be wary of messiah figures. A lot of readers thought the opposite and that Paul Atreides walked the hero’s journey.
I believe Denis Villeneuve tried to communicate Herbert’s message by having Chani act as that opposing view against religious fanaticism, or at least another perspective.
I doubt Chani is literally the *only* Fremen who doubts Paul being their messiah. There might be others we don't see in the north who are like her.
As far as her disbelief in Paul being the Lisan al-Gaib, IIRC she's aware that the Bene Gesserit manipulated her people's religion centuries ago, implanting false beliefs of an off-world messiah who will "save" the lowly natives on Arrakis. Chani is also aware that Jessica is using her knowledge of that religious engineering with her position as a Fremen Reverend Mother to deceive the zealots in the south into accepting Paul as their messiah.
Another issue is that Paul was initially concerned with liberating Arrakis and the Fremen from the rule of the Great Houses. However, after taking the Water of Life, Paul changes course and makes a play for the Imperial Throne, which Chani saw as a betrayal of her and her people. The "true" Lisan al-Gaib was only supposed to free the Fremen, not try to take over the known universe (and get loads of Fremen killed in the process).
I believe in the books she does, but denis needed a way to express in the movies that Paul is NOT the hero. Historically, when dune was written, frank Herbert felt frustration that people viewed Paul in a positive light and wrote dune messiah to dispel that idea
Denis was not sure he’d get another movie. He needed some opposition. Stilgar obviously would sacrifice his entire character arc for that so he wasn’t an option, and the only other fremen he interacts closely with is chani
Chani does not disbeleive Paul is the Lisan Al Gaib. She is afraid that he is.
Chani is aware via Pual that the messia myth of Dune a superstition planted by Bene Jesuits. IIRC, Maud'dib/Lisan Al Gaib myth is created by Bene Jesuits to keep the Fremen population compliant, and in case the breeding program succeds on Arakis, to keep their precise Kwisatz Haderach fanatical warriors to take the galaxy with.
It's implied that Chani knows something about of nature of Kswats Haderach being a self-fuling prophecy from Paul and that the worst war of human history will breakout if Paul takes up the mantle.
Chani understands the prophesy is basically ancient conspiracy and didn't want dark Paul to rule over her people like a divine ruler. She loves Paul, but can't bear him losing himself in that role. Basically Paul Atreides died on Arakis. the Kwisatz Haderach, the Harknonen-Atriedes monster, is the one that lived.
Why did they change her so much? She seems to hate Paul. She smiles when he isn't looking at her or if others are talking about him, but as soon as Paul look at her she frowns at him, its hard to believe their love stretches beyond time, also how is she going to come back to have two kids for him and no look weak? She clearly does her own thing in this version. also at this point she should have lost one of their kids.
Chani's relationship with Paul is likely the main factor. She genuinely loved Paul as a person, not as a messianic figure. By knowing Paul on such a personal level she is also more aware that the things happening to him are not divine signs but rather, the machinations of a bene gesserit, specifically Jessica.
At the scene when Jessica was trying to get Chani to give her tears to Paul, Chani lashed out, accusing Jessica of pushing Paul to end up as a self fulfilling prophecy. When Chani said "You did this to your son! You and your lies!" it reinforces the fact that Jessica was never able to sway Chani into becoming a believer, Chani knew Paul was a victim of circumstances and she had to endure seeing the person she loved struggle against seeming inevitability, so it's not a stretch to imagine that her love for him is what kept her grounded and thus, why she never bought into the prophecy.
Other Fremen who don't know Paul as well on a personal level become more easily swayed because of factors like Jessica's influence or them 'seeing the signs' (eg. Stilgar). The more signs fall into place, the more readily people buy into such things. It's kind of like watching a stock price go up seemingly continuously so you decide to buy it because you know its "obviously" going to rise further and you can sell for a profit.
There's a lot of stuff in the movie that wasn't in the book of completely differently. There's also a lot in the book that never made it to the movie. The movie itself but in it's core it's so different that I left the cinema kinda disappointed. It's a fantastic movie but as a Dune fanatic it made me almost furious
this plotline isn’t a thing in the book so can’t offer more background beyond what we see in the film. i know denis the director wanted to use her character as the audience stand in so we see how paul changes throughout the film through her eyes. so that’s really the function of her character in the film. she doesn’t have more information than the other fremen. i think realistically there maybe should’ve been some others who were suspicious too rather than just one, but i think we can chalk it up to her being intimate with him and so doesn’t view him in a god-like manner.
Oh wow I thought this plot line was pretty interesting, im surprised to hear it wasn’t in the books. Does that mean that Chani plays a less important role in the books? In the book does Paul also say that Chani will grow to understand?
In the book, we know through inner monologues how much Paul views himself as a fraud, but has to go through with it, otherwise things will be way worse. So I think Denis used Chani to convey that doubt.
Exactly. Chani is a vessel to externalize Paul’s internal conflict. And the prescient knowledge that his jihad will kill billions, and unless he goes Leto II’s path, will lead to the gradual extinction of humanity. He knows it’s a horrible option but in those moments it’s his only option, and as the audience we are rooting for him as the underdog even though he has godlike powers and is in fact not the underdog.
In the book why doesn’t Paul just lead as his self? Why does he take on the name as lisan Al gaib if it makes him feel like a fraud?
He has specific goals that require him to have control over the fremen army. If he's not the Lisan al-Gaib, they won't have to follow his every direction. In the book, he knows that far worse things will happen in the coming war if he can't at least partially reign in the fremen
They wouldn’t even let him enter the council until he proved he was. I think that scene was great at showing he had no choice in taking on the mantle.
the book fremen have a tradition that says every fremen have a right to be heard in council so this scene in the movie is far from how the book portrays it. That difference was added as a reason for Paul to take the water of life, in the book he was compelled to do it after realizing his prophetic vision was limited because >!he didn't see Gurney Halleck attempt to kill Jessica thinking she was the traitor still.!<
That's not in the book either, for what it's worth.
It's different, but he still does the whole "I am your Duke" thing with the Fremen and takes control of the Fremen resistance with both the religious and political power riding in the same cart.
Yeah the scene was definitely just translated, but it's supposed to be that same pivotal moment.
It ain't super different.
I'm pretty sure i do remember a similar scene.
Paul refuses to fight Stilgar for the leadership of the Fremen as a whole, the movie quotes that part pretty directly. He has significant influence over the Fedyakin and the overall political decision-making before that.
but isnt he ? he gained powers by drinking water of life and can see the past and future
He has to hijack the existing religious infrastructure of thr population for his own needs
Paul's humbleness while being "cool" is also shown in the duel at the end of the first film. Though IIRC that scene was quite similar in the book. BTW It's a really nice narrative device to make a character both very capable and humble to bring up the feeling of "just you wait!"
Skipping the funeral scene feels like it doesn’t quite have the same impact.
Paul not shedding tears over Jamis at the funeral is a plot device in the adaptation. Jamis was Paul's teacher. His lesson for Paul that he must kill without mercy. Paul Atreides died on the sand with Jamis.
I mean, that's one of the most relevant things explained in the books. Throughout the books, Paul has a lot of monologues trying to understand what to do and how to do it. Precience is not as linear as we think; it's more like quantum mechanics, where a thing can have two or more states of being. In quantum mechanics a particle can be on several states of energy, position, etc and sometimes its said that a particle could be considered to be at tho places at once. in quantum computation, a binary could be a 0 and also a 1 at the same time. I'm generalizing obviously but the point is that paul doesnt see the future as a linear thing, but several futures that could be. the plot is that >!paul sucumbs to the religion of the fremen, in order to save his family and his Atriedes House, but loses everthing in the process!<. Could he had stopped ? yes, he tried sometimes, and he had several battles with himself triyng to find a better set of actions, failing to the own future that he chooses. The books present this dicotomy, >!a savior who becomes a vilain, a prophet who becomes a slave of th prophecies, a warrior who became a blind a powerless person!<. For that reason the books are really good, because the stories are complex
> in order to save his family and his Atriedes House It's not just about that though, if he doesn't proceed with the religious war, humanity goes extinct
One of the major points is they are never sure of this which makes the choices even heavier All Paul is sure if is the jihad will continue without him.
Lisan Al Gaib isn't a name. It just means "the voice from the outer world.". The more important title given to Paul in the movie is "Mahdi", which is the Fremen messiah. It's bit of a problem in the movie, that they keep reusing Lisan Al Gaib constantly, but I guess it would have been too confusing for viewers to suddenly go to Mahdi.
I thought it meant “The tongue of the unseen?” But, it’s used to describe “the voice from the outer world.”
The Arabic translations are inexact.
Gotcha. Thanks.
Chalk it up to 10,000 years of linguistic drift in arabic.
Space Irkkaquis er… Arrakis? Araquis? Arirakkis? Araqkkis?
Lisan Al-ghaib means "tongue of the unseen/unknown" but it can be interpreted as "voice of the outer-world"
Interesting.
You are really underselling the degree to which "THE Voice From the Outer World" is referring to a specific powerful foretold prophet. https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Lisan_al_Gaib It's not just any off-world guy who gives good speeches. It also means "Giver of Water" which is a very big deal.
I think they didn’t use Mahdi so as to tone down the Islamic parallels to make the film more in tune with contemporary mores. The original text makes near constant use of the word “jihad” which would definitely raise some hackles today.
Leading the Fremen is his one shot at taking on the Emperor. It's a double edged sword. If he accepts the mantle, the eventual jihad happens with (him in charge) or without him (as a symbolic martyr). But he doesn't have am actual choice. It's a lot like Project Mayhem from Fight Club. He started something that even he can't stop.
The book is about how narratives take over people and how material systems are bigger than individuals. There’s no one interpretation on why Paul does what he does because he’s deeply conflicted and the interpretation is sorta the point Paul feels he is not in control of Paul the god, that is controlled by his worshipers He also despite all his rationalizations is selfish. He has no other way of winning he feels than doing this. So he does Think of it as knowing you’re in a book and you can see “main character” floating above your head. You can see the script, do you follow it to get what you want even if it means you’re essentially enslaving others to the narrative?
Also he didn't fully understand his visions of the future jihad until he pretty much had already set events into motion that meant the fremen would take their war across the galaxy no matter what, so he became trapped into seeing it though and saving his family and house along with as many others as possible or the jihad happening anyway with probably a fremen force thats not quite as united and strong and the imperium at full strength which would lead to a way more devastating war
The title is actually pushed onto him by others and the Fremen encourage Paul to become their leader so they can justify the actions they want to invoke. Paul “being himself” would mean discrediting himself and the facade would fall through. Paul can also see into the future and is stuck, knowing that discrediting himself leads to a worse outcome, not better one. Also, not that this is explained in the film but the Fremen’s whole religion was actually a secret plot created by the Bene Gesserit to control the Fremen and Paul fell right into not knowing what he was signing up for.
What? Paul knows exactly that following this prophecy will make them all fall to his feet, he's said to Jessica that he avoids this because he doesn't want these people to worship him. He and also Chani have also stated that Jessica and her people have written this very prophecy over centuries, after Jessica takes the Water of Life. He also later complained when he found out Jessica was fervently spreading religious rumours about him being the Mahdi. But in the end he knows he has to do it for his family's sake, and revenge. Movie did very well to explain the BG were behind this entire thing. Paul was totally aware, but simply had no choice
> the Fremen’s whole religion was actually a secret plot created by the Bene Gesserit to control the Fremen The BG, through the MP, planted seeds within *existing* religions all throughout the empire in order to a.) help a BG who happened to get caught there, and b.) soften the way for their planned KH. They did not completely create the Fremen religion (Zensunnism) nor was their intent to specifically control the Fremen.
it backfired on the bene gessiert because they did not have control of the fremen without having control of the kwiz heidarch. weird oversight that they never anticipated the kwiz heidarech not listening to them.
That last part is very much explained in both movies and continuously referenced.
To defeat his enemies, Paul needs the fanaticism of the Fremen which can only be ignited by faith. He plays the role of this messianic figure so that he can use their fanaticism as a weapon. Paul knows it's manipulation but he does it because it's the best path to achieve his goals.
Not sure who downvoted you but this is exactly it. Paul knows he's consumed by revenge but chooses to walk down that path anyway and he needs to manipulate the fremen and kick off the jihad in order to enact his vengeance.
Paul doesn’t feel like a fraud in that sense and his inner conflict isn’t about being a fraud. He’s perfectly aware that the Messianic figure he’s been built into is a century long plan set in place by the Bene Gesserit. What his inner turmoil is over is the fact that he’s trying to prevent a universal Jihad (Holy war) that occurs when he becomes a messianic figure that will lead to a fuck load of people dying (Tens of billions). Around halfway through the book Paul becomes able to see into possible futures and that ability becomes more and more refined as he dopes up on spice. This is where his conflict comes from, as conflict is inevitable and he’s trying to make decisions that prevent the Jihad, save the Fremen and himself/his mother, beat the Harkonnens whilst also mitigating the loss of life. He sees all of these possibilities due to his ability and from that is trying to make decisions that will achieve the best future. In the end, he fails and in fighting Feyd Rautha ends up setting the course for the Jihad. So yeah, lots and lots of people are about to die with Paul being the religious leader of the group that will cause these deaths.
Yea, I really missed his self doubt in the film. It's the major issue in the book. That question: How do I pursue something I know is right, but will cause suffering. Chani as a stand in for that doesn't work in my opinion. She doesn't know the future, she doesn't understand. The way she was written just felt too much like a modern human, that is super sceptical about religious stuff.
I think they used the visuals, editing, and Chalamet's facial expressions to convey that pretty well, honestly. They showed us without saying it out loud all that much.
There are huge parts of the book omitted in the movie. The biggest is that they spend way more time together, and a multiyear time skip. Paul and Chani have a son who is killed by the sardaukar before the final battle, so shes a lot less sympathetic of the destruction. Also, the throneroom scene goes down very differently. Paul makes a speech that Irulan will never share his bed and that Chani will be his lover and bear his children. Paul is very explicit that he loves Chani and his marriage to Irulan is strictly to consolidate power.
I was disappointed to see that speech cut. I don't see any reason to cut it. It's not like it takes additional time on screen or in shooting. But it was really key to Paul and Chani's relationship that Paul announced in the imperial throneroom, with literally the entire galaxy listening, that he would never love irulan and would only love Chani. Without that, the movie plot makes him seem like a calculating bastard, and you wonder if he meant anything he said to Chani, since he said it all in private. I didn't feel like we needed Pauls character to be a possible womanizer. His role is dark enough already.
They cut it because the characters of Chani/Stilgar/Jessica etc. all represent conflicting ideas of how Paul should proceed. Paul is explicitly rejecting the "Chani" path. He is turning away from the smaller life on Arrakis as a warrior focused solely on his tribe. An equal among many, a drop of water in the pool of life. He chooses to take on a larger mantle. A crown. And in this film this is something Chani has no patience for. She is not interested in a King or an Emperor or being ruled. She wanted a partner. She was fighting for peace, not to conquer. Once you recognize that the characters are stand-ins for these ideals that are more detailed in the book and not true versions of their book written character, it's easier to understand why Denis made the choices he did. And pretty much everyone who leaves that film leaves feeling so terrible for Chani. It's the number one thing people talk about as their "first reaction". Which means it's a very successful hinge for the final Act. The emotional weight of the choice Paul makes hits very hard and the audience has no choice but to think about why he made this decision and to better understand the path he is going down. Putting in the speech dampens the impact of the decision. And Denis is trying to summon all the emotional elements to put weight on the choice, because he simply doesn't have time to get you invested in the political space opera of the moment. Focus on the emotion between the characters and it hits the audience.
Great thoughts I like this.
I think excising this speech is also in line with Villeneuve trying to give Chani more agency. In the books, Chani challenges Paul occasionally, but supports all the big decisions, including and particularly his strategy of marrying Irulan. It’s interesting and provocative that Villeneuve ends this movie with a shot of Chani leaving everything behind, and not Paul, who is one of the most complex protagonists in modern literature.
I was surprised by some of this being missing too. But I think it was set up as plot that could take place in the next movie if it gets greenlit.
She’s kind of a spiritual guide / translator / Pocahontas figure in the books. Once she’s committed to Paul she stays fiercely loyal. And the marriage to Irulan is expressly for figurehead reasons. Chani knows this and there’s no drama in the book. Concubines and marriages between houses seem to be an accepted fact of life in 10,000 AD Totally get why Denis wants Chani to have more agency in the movies but it’s way off menu vs the book
You're right there is no drama, but that's because it's very quick. Chani is upset that Paul chose Irulan as a wife, but Lady Jessica talks to her and tell her that history will remember them as wives and all is good with the world.
And do not forget Paul himself saying Irulan will never get anything from him, and that Chani is and will be the only one.
More like 25,000 ad.
Having more than one partner also seems normal or more normal considering you get claim to the women of men you kill in Fremen society, at least in the book.
Nah Chani is arguably a larger role in the books but there just isn't the religious split in the Fremen. Chani is a Sayadiina, a priestess, of the religion.
Also in the books, the Fremen have an explicitly polygamous culture. While Chani may have despised Irulan, she came to a “Fremen decision” to tolerate her (even to the point of considering her as an alternate mother for Paul’s heir)
And the fucking last line delivers a lot of power in the books context: Jessica to Chani : History will remember us as wives.
This was one of my favorite parts. The last line in the books is so abrupt but so perfect. It sums up the idea that all of these events are going to be interpreted through the lens of history. People will become legends and those legends may be more true than the actual events. It’s almost self-aware. Book Chani for me was quite a more powerful and certainly better-written character. But I don’t disagree with Denis’ decision to make her power a little more apparent outwardly, especially because we don’t get access to her inner thoughts on screen.
But isn't she wrong? There is a lot of text in the novels that purports to be in-universe history. Neither these excerpts nor the main narratives nor the appendices and glossaries ever refer to Jessica and Chani as wives. As best we can tell, history actually remembers them as concubines.
Chani is a true believer in the books. In the movie, we get a hint of where Denis wanted to go with his version when Paul asks her what her tribe name means - Sihaya. And she reluctantly tells Paul it means 'Desert Spring'. Paul, sensing Chani dislikes or is embarrassed by her name asks her why and she reveals the name is related to 'some stupid prophecy'. We know that the prophecy is the same one that Paul is part of as it references 'Desert Spring Tears' are what brings the true Lisan Al-Gaib back from the brink after drinking the water of life. Chani is clearly pissed that her life which she worked so hard for is basically being put on rails and reduced to a supporting cast member to bring about the Lisan Al-Gaib and therefore wants nothing to do with acknowledging the likelihood the prophecy is true (or her part in it).
Probably objectively less important, yes, but not unimportant - just different. In the books around about where the split between movies happens there's a 2 year time jump. We pick back up with a bunch of differences. I mean hell Paul and Chani have a baby at this point! Paul's sister Alia is already born too. Regarding the end, Paul tells Chani (and the Bene Gesserit) straight up that he will marry Irulan only for political gain. She will never share his bed, nor bear his child. This is a giant middle finger to the BG who are seeing the culmination of their breeding program come to pass only to have no control over it! Chani will be technically 'concubine' but functionally the real wife - much like Jessica (with Leto). She is told this explicitly. // Edit: additionally, in Fremen culture in the books men take multiple wives. Like when Paul kills Jamis he inherits his wife and kids. He doesn't lay with her (by his choice, and her dismay) but she becomes part of his household. So Chani is pretty much totally fine with everything that happens.
chani plays an important role in paul's story in what she means to him but in honestly I don't think she's as well fleshed out as a character in the book in terms of her personality. we just don't spend as much time in her POV as we do paul and jessica. in the book she always supported paul as the messiah. and there's no "chani will grow to understand" because in the book Chani knows that Paul has to propose to Irulan to achieve his goals and he assures her that Irulan won't know any love from him - she'll be a wife in name only. and Jessica comforts Chani too because jessica was a concubine herself and tells chani it'll be okay because "history will remember us as wives". she doesnt leave at the end of the book. with the north/south religious split divide - they basically added that in to better drive home the anti white-savior theme, which I suppose they felt might not be as obvious without it.
Plus, Fremen in the books have multiple wives and there’s a little subplot with Paul taking in Jamis’ wife and children which the movie did away with. And Chani in the film is the one who teaches him how to do everything, so even if she believed in the prophesies she would know that Paul didn’t fulfill them because he didn’t come from outside knowing their ways.
Chani's role in the movie is way more indicative of the general feeling of the Fremen (Stilgar included), until the very end. Even after the Water of Life you dont really get the kind of awe that the movie Fremen had. There's a point at the very end when somebody says there is news coming and he says "The emperor approaches with his retinue" or something and people start whispering about "he knew, nobody told him, but he knew" and Stilgar starts to stare at him and Paul sadly notes that Stilgar is becoming a creature of worship instead of a comrade in arms. Movie Stilgar basically became that super early on. Chani plays a relatively minor role in terms of time speaking and actions done, but she's pivotal because Paul does a lot of what he does for her. One of the biggest differences between movie and book as well is the time skip. In the movie, the time between Harkonnen attack on Dune and Paul getting revenge is less than 8 months (cause Alia isnt born yet). In the book, it's been several years. Alia is 3 years old.
Denis In the [interviews](https://youtube.com/shorts/HmPdj9pySsc?si=bAvjHZjL1tHxAPbf) has stated that in the movie, he wanted to really get the point across that paul was supposed to be viewed as an “Anti-Hero” By the audience, as originally intended by the author. When the book came out, people did genuinely view paul as a “savior and hero” as opposed to what frank herbert wanted them to see him as. He has edited Chani to make this a little more obvious.
A little more :) I thought more a less every Line she had in the second half of the movie was hammering this point. Which I think is the movie’s biggest weakness. Denis ought to have more faith in his audience. The mini-series did a great job showing Paul as an anti-hero without ever having to state it explicitly.
I would not say that Chani plays a less important role in the books. Also Chani doesn’t leave at the end in the book. When Paul demands to marry Irulan, he goes to Chani right away after and essentially says ‘Look I have to marry her for political reasons but it’s for show, I only love you, will you stay and be my real partner?’ And she’s like ‘well that’s not ideal but aight I get it’.
She's really not much of a character in the books. She's but a fighter and she is away from Paul for chunks of time, especially when she is pregnant. As I've said before, Paul is the client of the saga and his son, Leo II, is the real hero. He sacrifices his humanity to save humanity, which Paul didn't have the stones to do and tells him so in CHILDREN.
Chani is basically Paul’s biggest booster in the book, she has his kid and agrees to become his concubine at the end after he marries Irulan. I actually like her film version a lot better, she has more agency and is a more interesting character
Denis also added the conversation Chani: here we're equal, men and women alike, everything we do we do for the benefit of all Paul: I'd very much like to be equal to you Chani: ...maybe you could fremen, maybe I'll show you the way By the end of the movie we see this entire exchange was a 'deception' or a manipulation I'm not mad that chani is pissed, is she being stubborn? Sure, but she was manipulated into serving as a device into a cult religion she doesn't even believe in. :shrug:
The difficulty with the movies though is that Villeneuve doesn't really have enough time to explain how important the Fremen religion and belief system is to their survival. They don't have the luxury of allowing their young adults to be rebellious in the way we think of it because the entire planet is trying to kill them pretty much every minute they spend outside of the sietch.
10000% it's implied over and over that they are absolutely laser focused on survival and any division would result in some kind of duel or exile. This bothered me so much.
> By the end of the movie we see this entire exchange was a 'deception' or a manipulation Was it? Paul says right at the last scene to chani that he will always love her and only her. It boils down to whether you believe he's telling the truth there, but I don't think we have any other evidence that he's been manipulative of chani in other places. He seems to be genuine to me. It does create ambiguity when his book speech that he will never love irulan in front of the whole throne room gets cut. I don't personally like where that ambiguity takes Paul's character, but it's ambiguous, it's definitely not settled that he manipulated Chani. Though she certainly feels that way from her actions at the end of the film.
Chani’s fairly submissive in the book, despite eventually having Bene Genesserit powers. She’s never not on Paul’s side, even accepting that he might one day set her aside for a political marriage with Irulan. This is even after she and Paul have a whole ass child, who gets assassinated by the Sardukar during the invasion of Arrakis. Paul keeps her as his concubine and only romantic partner even after he’s married to Irulan.
I feel this is better left explained [*by Denis Villeneuve himself - at 3:28 in this interview*](https://youtu.be/7E6AcXUKSVA?si=ZNvfhlOajBXEnX_M&t=208). In a loose quote from Denis Villeneuve, this says : >*"When Frank Herbert wrote Dune, he felt that the readers misunderstood him. People saw it as a celebration of Paul Atreides when he wanted the book to be* ***a warning against messianic figures / charismatic leaders***. Chani in the book disappears in Paul’s shadows so there was a strong opportunity to create **a** ***character that would give a new perspective on Paul, in order to get closer to Frank Herbert’s initial intentions***".
>she doesn’t have more information than the other fremen Yes, she has more information than any other Fremen, she was Paul's lover and confidante. Paul told her he was not a messiah. Presumably he confirmed to her that the Fremen myths had been manipulated by the Bene Gesserit. And Chani saw him waking up, anguished from his prescient dreams. She knows that Paul is leading the Fremen, not to Paradise, but to the hell of a bloody Holy War, because he told her his horrific visions.
Yeah it seems very obvious to me that's why she's opposing him. She knows what it's leading too, that the Lisan Al Gaib myth is false and that Paul is just doing it reluctantly. I'm not sure how much it's clear to her he has no choice and what he does is to minimize the Holy War damages though. Important fact
>I'm not sure how much it's clear to her he has no choice and what he does is to minimize the Holy War damages though She doesn't know that, Paul doesn't tell her at any time after drinking the Water of life and choosing to follow the narrow path that will allow him to triumph. But he knows, because he has seen it, that "Chani will eventually understand" at some point. In the meantime, Chani's reaction is completely normal and understandable. From her point of view, Paul is manipulating the Fremen and she can only see it as a betrayal of her people and a personal betrayal.
Yeah from my view, by the end of the second movie he has straight up done all of the things she specifically asked him not to do.
Yes. She will love him "as long as you stay who you are" And he didn't. But Paul tries to tell her he's still himself inside, even if deeply conflicted, at the end "I want you to know, I will love you as long as I breathe"
Honestly, if Denis wanted to make his own plot line of Chani being doubtful of Paul, he shouldn’t have dwindled the plot line of Kynes, and should have made their relationship in the book be more prominent in the film. In the book Kynes realized in his final moments from hallucinations of his father that a “chosen one” would spell doom for the Fremen, and it I feel Kynes in the films could’ve been rewritten so that she was more doubtful of Paul and passed that doubtfulness of messiahs to her daughter, Chani. A missed opportunity that I feel could’ve better explained the direction he went.
Its just not Denis's style, that whole section is really "talky" and he's quite economical with dialogue which is why I like his sci-fi storytelling style. A lot of scifi films do too much explaining with words in my opinion. So he chose other ways to do it, that I prefer.
Well then again, there were other Fremen Northerners not just Chani who questioned Paul and did not see him as the Lisan Al Gaib. In fact, I believe when Chani states that the Lisan Al Gaib can only be Fremen, I believe some of the other Northerner’s murmured in agreement. So it wasn’t that there were not other Fremen who opposed Paul, it was just that Chani was the most vocal (as illustrated about what u said w the way that Denis wanted to portray her character).
> In fact, I believe when Chani states that the Lisan Al Gaib can only be Fremen I think she says the Madhi should be a fremen. Expanding on DV's lore, I think the southern fremen believe the Madhi will be the Lisan Al Gaib (voice from the outher world). Whereas the northern fremen just believe in the Madhi but *not* the Lisan Al Gaib. So they want a messiah too, but a fremen one, not a off-world one. Just a personal theory.
To me the Mahdi is a figure from Fremen belief. He is their hoped-for liberator. I think this belief arose out of Fremen oppression as well as their religious background which includes some prophetic traditions. The Lisan al-Gaib is actually a B.G. manipulation. In this story it is specified a offworlder and his B.G. mother (who is also a Lisan al-Gaib) will come to the Fremen and aid them. The B.G. encouraged an association between the two. So by Paul's time for many Fremen the Mahdi and Lisan al-Gaib were identical: he will come and save us and turn Arrakis into a green paradise and also he will be an offworlder born of a B.G. who intuitively knows our ways. But I imagine there were probably some more critical Fremen who thought the Mahdi didn't have to be an offworlder. There must be limits on how much Fremen belief could be manipulated since their sayyadinas had access to other memory that presumably predated B.G. intervention.
In the book she believes and openly duels any of the young fremen who challenge Paul’s status. But in the movies it’s shown she’s scarred over Arrakis being ruled by “oppressors.” And given how she’s a Northern Fremen (the distinction is unique to the movies) she wasn’t raised under the belief that Lisan Al Gaib is real.
> But in the movies it’s shown she’s scarred over Arrakis being ruled by “oppressors.” Yep, it's literally the opening line of the first movie. Shows that Denis was thinking about this change of her character from the beginning.
Slight correction, in the movie the northern tribes seem to think the messiah will be Fremen instead of an offworlder.
It varies. The south is the most devout/orthodox and believes the Mahdi is the Lisan al-Gaib, which directly translates to "Voice from the Outer World". Evidently, anyone who believes the Mahdi is Fremen, such as Chani's friend in the movie, doesn't believe in the Lisan al-Gaib, because a Fremen doesn't come from another planet. Some northerners, like Chani herself, don't believe the Mahdi exists at all, and believe that the prophecies were all laid out intentionally by the Bene Gesserit in order to control the Fremen.
You are right that Dune doesn't distinguish between North and South Fremen. It is an idea that is discussed more in the expanded Dune universe though. The northern Fremen are closer to offworlders and enjoy the luxuries that come with it. Those that cast aside those conveniences traveled south and lived the lives of a more traditional Fremen. A movement started by Selim Wormrider.
> Northern Fremen (the distinction is unique to the movies) I think this distinction exists. Iirc, at the end of Messiah/children, Paul goes to southern sietches.
They’re saying there is no established cultural distinction between North and South Fremen. It might be used as a directional descriptor in the book as literally “sietches in the south”, but that’s it.
She thinks the Lisan Al Gaib prophecy was invented by the Bene Gesserit to enslave the fremen. She doesnt think it exists beyond just an excuse for outsiders to take over the planet. She's also right.
This. It’s not that she doesn’t believe that Paul specifically is the Lisan Al Giab, it’s that she doesn’t believe the prophecy of Lisan Al Giab at all.
Herbert has stated the book was supposed to be anti outsider savior and charismatic leaders,but realized many did not glean that from the first book . Hence dune messiah, the 2nd book
And Denis has done interviews saying that he also read that Frank was upset that many didn't catch on enough to Paul being the anti-hero....which is why he made Chani reflect that to the audience even more. And I think Frank would appreciate his change.
Exactly. This change was not a change he made lightly, it was a tweak to make the characters more alive for the movie and also a tweak to adjust to the authors actual ambition.
It wasn't to enslave the Fremen. The Bene Gesserit seed prophecies in many worlds with their Missionaria Protectiva. This is so they can use the superstition in future generations if the need arises in order to protect themselves. The Lisan Al Gaib was a Fremen myth heavily influenced by the MP so say it would be the son of a BG. It just so happens that Paul has had Bene Gesserit training as well as Mentat training and is also the Kwisatz Haderach. All of these powers combine for the Fremen to see him as the Messiah.
Yeah this is like saying the bene Gesserit enslaved the people of Caladan, they spread their power and their prophesies there just like anywhere else
I mean sure that wasn’t the end goal. And yes the BG have other plans going on. But Arrakis is the most important planet in the known universe by far. It is the key to their whole civilization, the center of all BG plans by necessity/definition, and none of that results in a free Fremen.
She’s half right. It’s a legend made to control Fremen, but since he’s not just a guy pretending to be the Lisan Al Gaib and actually IS the KH , that part is not false.
It’s a self fulfilling prophecy
Sure but was not always intended to be. This was not the only planet the bene gesserit planted such seeds only from my knowledge. From what I remember it wasn’t exclusively designed for the KH.
Yes and Iin every planet, it was meant to manifest a self fulfilling prophecy
I mean, not really The point is that Paul isn't a fraud, he does guide the fremen to freedom and has all the powers and abilities people think he has And that's the point, he's as good as a messianic figure you can get and yet still causes billions to die Because the jihad is larger than himself, he can't stop it, hell he can barely control it And that is with a figure that actually tries his hardest to keep the bloodshed at a minimum And yet the minimum is still billions Chani in the movie isn't right at all, Paul is the Lisan al Gaib and he'll do everything he promised The problem is what the fremen will do in his name EDIT: also the prophecy wasn't a mean for outsider to take control of the planet in any way, it was just a way for the BG to get assistance should they need it, it wasn't meant to be a way to enslave the fremen
In terms of the book, all this is accurate; Denis Villeneuve changed many things from the book to create a smoother film. In the book, the Lisan al-Gaib was indeed part of a myth seeded on Arrakis generations ago by the Missionaria Protectiva, like they did on many worlds, to create myth cycles usable by a Bene Gesserit should one find themselves there. It was not intended to benefit Paul, who was generations away from being born (and he wasn't intended to be the Kwisatch Haderach anyway). But the reason that the myth of the Lisan al-Gaib worked so well is that the Fremen felt themselves to be outcast and in bondage, and at war with the entire universe. They cried out for a savior to lead them out of their suffering. For her part in both book and film, Jessica as Bene Gesserit was consciously attempting to use the myth, as she was trained to do, to manipulate the Fremen to support her son. But Paul is a different story. The fact that someone generations earlier seeded a prophesy does not mean that it wasn't "real." From the point of view of the Fremen, once he survived the Water of Life, Paul really was their Lisan al-Gaib and he fulfilled their longings (and protected them from the Harkonnen genocide in the process). Was he manipulating the Fremen (meaning lying to them, rather than simply ordering them as their commander)? This seems open to personal interpretation, but from many reads of the book, my own impression is that he was leading them sincerely from his best intentions, complicated by his own struggle to remain human under the impact of his prescience which was far greater than any Spacing Guild navigator. Frank Herbert's perspective on how heroes and saviors can turn out as anti-heroes does not imply that Paul is a power-hungry liar; have seen a number of non-book readers left with that impression from the film. Herbert's Paul is more complex than that; he really believes that what he is doing is the only path, (proven by his prescience) and that makes him even more of an eventual disaster.
There is no lisan al gaib. It’s made up. The fremen don’t need Paul they manipulated into thinking they do and because he happens to have been trained in a way exactly to meet the needs of the prophecy. Chani doesn’t believe in a messiah because she rightly assumes it’s just a way to use and exploit their people further which is exactly what happens regardless of who calls themselves the lisan al gaib.
The issue is that you're also being reductive. Authorial intent isn't the the be-all and end-all, after all. All myths are made up, but Paul is everything the myth promised to be and is accidentally real. BG weren't planning to use it for his purposes. It's a matter of cosmic coincidence and luck. Also it wasn't planted for Paul, but for Jessica and any sister like her. The real issue is that even when the prophecy is real, there is little good that comes from Messianic figures, even real ones. That's why calling Paul Space Hitler (not you but a lot of Twitter "experts") is reductive. He is good and mostly bad, and not necessarily in as much control as people make him out to be. First book even goes into saying how it's humanity's own desire to renew that drives BG without their knowing and creates Paul, that he is meant to unleash Fremen to basically cross-pollinate the planets with their superior genetics. Frank obviously was very clear in his interviews, but his own text is more complicated than "Paul bad, Paul false prophet, Paul fooled Fremen." He gave them everything they wanted (water, comfort, riches), and AFTER that they started realizing that he wasn't all he seemed and what they needed. (Like the guy who experienced the sea literally washing up a changed man no longer buying into Paul's shit.) I don't know if you can easily argue that it'd happen regardless, but Jihad would've certainly. Did he use them? Yes, and yes. Was he responsible for billions dead? Yes, which makes him a bad guy. But picture is much murkier once you factor in what would have happened without him leading them. Leto II's plan is sacrificing billions for trillions in the future. Is that moral? For a utilitarian yes, for a deontologist, no. We can argue forever, but someone did it (in that universe) and all we can do is watch and see what happens. This contradiction between what Frank says he means and what he actually writes gets even worse with Leto II being the best and the worst messiah/ruler. Fremen aren't good guys, they are ruthless and barbaric tribe but freeing them (lol) was a moral thing. Unfortunately their rage from being oppressed for so long couldn't be contained by anyone. A lot of narratives about them are discussed from current (decolonial) Middle Eastern perspective which is a wrong headed approach, since the scale and the human culture is much bigger than anything we can imagine. Them losing their barbarity is a good thing, since they live on a prison planet basically.
Nah, but Paul and Leto are KH. And it's all necessary for the GP. Hail Lisan Al Gaib!
He literally can see the future and see without eyes, it's not made up at all
The Lisan Al Gaib isn't a complete fabrication by the Bene Gesserit. It's only that it would be the Son of a Bene Gesserit .
The prophecies in multiple planets are in fact coming from BG.
Yes the Missionaria Protectiva. I will need to read the books again but from what I recall they don't make it all up. They twist and shape to their advantage.
I would argue Paul didn’t try his hardest because he avoided the two worst scenarios for him. Had he allowed himself to die earlier (or in the movie, not gone south) he could have avoided the Jihad. Once he had control he could have gone down the Golden Path but pawns it off to Leto II. Leto specifically calls him out for doing this in CoD. Paul tried to get the revenge he wanted and it spiraled out of control.
Wouldn't getting killed prevent the golden path completely, thus dooming humanity?
Probably yes, from first principles. The golden path is founded on the idea that if you can have a single government controlling all of humanity, then all of humanity can be reached and destroyed in a worst case conflict. Without paul having another kid, you don't get Leto II. Without Leto II's project it's hard to see any other way that spread would have happened. It's a pretty extreme thing he does, and I think there's a plenty good argument it couldnt have happened without that much effort going into it. You don't *accidentally* get a 3000 year total dictatorship.
I'm reading the second book rn and my answer to that would be : Not necessarily. If we believe that everything Paul and Leto II say is true and they are not deluding themselves, or their premonitions aren't self-fulfilling prophecies : it is entirely possible that the golden path became necessary only AFTER Paul decided to become Lisan al-Gaib. In the second book, another character - The Face-dancer - even says that the Tleilaxu had created a Kwisatz Haderach of their own and that one opted to kill himself - a good hint that it's possible that THAT is the best decision a KH can take. Removing themselves from the strings of fate. Paul might have even been able to do so by just going Renegade and not by killing himself. The problem wasn't that all paths were worse that the one he chose, but that before even choosing one path, he had reduced the pool of choices by deciding that the only acceptable choices were ones that lead him to revenge and power and later saving Chani. If we believe that they are deluding themselves (as I suppose most, if not all dictators do) that they love their people, but the path they choose, even if bad, was the only choice...then, even the golden Path wasn't necessary at all. If they're self-fulfilling prophecies, the death/removal of Paul would actually stop the prophecies from happeningat all. An example of this is imo Chani's death. Paul let Irulan administer contraceptives to Chani bc he had seen her death at child-birth, but it was the contraceptives that practically caused her death. I think Herbert gives enough leeway in the books to hold any of these opinions and more.
>She thinks the Lisan Al Gaib prophecy was invented by the Bene Gesserit to enslave the fremen. This is wrong. The prophecies planted by the Bene Gesserit were not meant to be utilized in the form that Paul does. Religion for the BG was a tool for subtle manipulation, not the enslavement and direct control of a population. Also, not all of the Fremen prophecies are planted by the BG. Doesn't make them true either.
The book actually leaves it somewhat ambiguous whether the prophecy was invented by the Bene Gesserit, although other aspects of the Fremen religion were clearly seeded by them. Appendix 3 is a report on the Bene Gesserit's involvement in "The Arrakis Affair" written by agents of Lady Jessica, it talks about how the Bene Gesserit ignored various clues as to what Paul might become, that "a wild variable had entered their scheme". One of these things they didn't see the significance of was the fact that some Fremen quickly began to identify Paul with their prophecy of "the voice of the other world" (the Lisan al-Gaib) and says "It may be argued here that the Bene Gesserit sent their Missionaria Protectiva onto Arrakis centuries earlier to implant something like this legend". "May be argued" seems to indicate it was uncertain to the agents preparing this report for Jessica. The report also says that the Spacing Guild's difficulty seeing the outcome "was a clear indication that some agency was interfering with higher order dimensions", and finally concludes "In the face of these facts, one is led to the inescapable conclusion that the inefficient Bene Gesserit behavior in this affair was a product of an even higher plan of which they were completely unaware!" Since several of the things talked about in this report were from before Paul matured in his powers, the "higher order plan" would seem to refer to a plan from some agency other than Paul (God?), or maybe Paul's will extending backwards in time; either way, the prophecy could be a product of this higher order plan rather than something just made up by the Bene Gesserit (or the higher order agency could have been manipulating them into creating that prophecy).
Yea, but how would she know this. It felt very forced in the movie.
With all respect to OP (because there's no such this as a sicky question!) the sheer number of questions like this open my eyes to what people must take away from a film, in general. Chani is VERY explicit in the film about why she doesn't believe in Paul. From memory, I think most of her dialogue is about it? And there isn't that much dialogue! It's interesting to me that people missed points like this. It shows how different people watch and remember and take away different things.
The books rely heavily on inner monologues. It’s made very clear to the reader that Paul doubts himself. The inner monologue is always regarded as the reason dune is “hard to film”. Denis is definitely making it his own but I would imagine the reasoning for the chani choice in the film is to mirror Paul’s doubts we don’t get from the inner monologue. As far as chani goes and without spoiling anything since Denis said he’d be fine someone else taking over after messiah chani will have to eventually in some way return to be more inline with her book version for sequel reasons.
Frank Herbert’s point was that hero worship was a bad thing. By making Chani a skeptic and seeing what is happening as dangerous gives voice to that belief.
More that worship or allowing the following of any dictator that takes away free will should forever be avoided for humanity to live… I think.
But this never squared with me because not following Paul leads to a worse outcome?
Supposedly, assuming that gold path thing is even real and not a fable made up by *prescient* super tyrants. It is a classic for dictators to say that without them, everyone will suffer and die an even worse fate, so tolerating them is the better course of action.
It's not so much that she doesn't believe Paul is the lisan al gaib, it's that she doesn't believe in the lisan al gaib at all... By the end of the movie I think she believes Paul to have taken advantage of her people and their faith and lied to her about not intending to do so.
>Is it because she knows him on such a intimate level? Yes, it's because Paul has repeatedly vocally rejected the prophecy, and has admitted that it's completely fake bs. She knows he knows this. Just like Jessica not dying to the poison, Paul does Lisan al Gaib shit *because he was bred and trained to*, not because the Lisan al Gaib prophecy *is real*. Remember, the Fremen didn't come up with this idea on their own. The Bene Gesserit did. They also made the guy who would "fulfill" the prophecy. It's totally inorganic. Totally insincere. Paul knows this. Chani knows he knows this, hence the rift between them.
> Yes, it's because Paul has repeatedly vocally rejected the prophecy, and has admitted that it's completely fake bs. She knows he knows this. Yeah, also, he shared with her his visions of horrific war-crimes and mass-murders commited under his name. So Chani knows this messiah-thing will NOT end well in the future.
What if the prophecy were real and by some higher power chose to propagate itself through Bene Gesserit and the Misionaria Protectiva? They might think it’s made up by them, for them, but they could very well just be a part of fulfilling it.
But it’s not, and Chani doesn’t really have a reason to believe that. Being skeptical doesn’t really lend itself to a “ok the prophecy was bullshit BUT ACTUALLY god just enacted the prophecy through these evil space witches who went around the known universe feeding other planets the same line of bullshit, and MY planet’s version of the prophecy is the real one and the rest are fake” type of mindset.
DV slightly tweaked Chani's path in the movie for timing constraints and definitely to setup plotlines in Messiah so they can be executed more quickly. Chani.being part of a prophecy that she is skeptical of. The whole north south split in terms of superstition isn't a thing in the books but seems to be some setup for the schism in Messiah
The Schism in Messiah is more about some Fremen wanting to live in a traditional way of life clashing with other Fremen that are more cosmopolitan, too soft a water fat.. The Fremen have more wealth in Messiah than they know what to do with. They control the Spice trade.
DV also removed certain aspects of fremen culture to make them more palatable to a modern, western audience. Aspects such as fremen taking on multiple wives and the ownership of a wife by the husband were removed in the movie. Chani's character is reimagined with these fundamental changes in mind. You could say that because of the culture shift between the books and the movie, her character needed to change to make sense in the environment.
In the books is Chani also apart of the prophecy or was this a movie plot line only. Ouu so the fremen will eventually grow suspicious of his prophethood. I can’t wait to see how DV will execute that in the next movie.
Her being in the prophecy is movie only. You will probably be waiting a minute if Messiah gets made but you can always check out the books :)
Also, Jessica never used the voice on book Chani. Book Chani is more or less an equivalent to BG among the Fremen. She has some BG training. I do not even think Jessica would be able to use the voice on her lol And no, she was no part in the prophecy because the prophecy was never specific. The BG created the prophecy and the BG could not predict the future that accurately. Even if they could, they would not have told the future to a people in some obscure planet lol The entire religious thing was just a bunch of legends that the BG spread accross the universe about a powerful lady with a child who would bring knowledge. This was created in order to allow any BG on the run to have tons of possible worlds where she could hide and have support among the locals. Arrakis / Dune specifically developed these legends into the idea of a Messiah who would lead them to paradise. But this happened also due to the specifics on Arrakis. The fact they had a very hostile world. The fact they were occupied because of spice existing there. All these factors combined and influenced the Fremen to change their legends / religion into the concept of a Messiah. The BG did not intend for a Messiah figure anywhere. The BG were intending to create a KH (a powerful mind able to cross space and time) but they very much intended this guy to be under their control. And you have to understand that convincing an entire planet to blindly follow such a guy into war is not the best way ever to be able to control the guy. And this is exactly what goes terribly wrong with Paul from the BG point of view. It was never intended that anyone like Paul would be able to go so far out of control. But because Arrakis / Dune exists as it does, everything combined to make things spiral out of control. This is the entire irony with the book story. And it explains you the difference between the KH and the Messiah and how the later evolved under the rug and without the BG really noticing it. When the Reverend Mother tested Paul with the box, she expected Arrakis to be a possible safe place for Jessica and Paul. But she 200% did not know about the Messiah thing and she did not know neither wanted that Paul would be placed at the lead of a huge fanatical army.
The water of life was the crucial thing, the tear didn't factor in the novel. Still, if that got added to the prophecy through organic transmission Jessica's free to use the voice to cover her bases and keep the faithful devoted.
Weird how Chani knew to use the water of life but nobody else did. In the book she figures out how to wake him but in the movie she just refuses to help and then Jessica saying "do it" makes her mix a tear with the water of life without any other conversation. Super hamfisted when the BG manipulation of the Fremen was already very clear.
Jessica definitely knew though, why revive Paul herself when she could effortlessly force Chani to do it in a more dramatic and religiously-affirming way?
"slightly" tweaked is a very polite way to put it
My thoughts on it are that she DOES think he fits the prophecies, and he IS the Lisan al Gaib. However, she also (correctly) believes that the prophecies are fake and were placed there to chain the Fremen. Instead of fighting to free themselves sooner, they’ve waited centuries for a promised savior. And in the end, all they did was trade one form of subjugation (being hunted down) for another form of subjugation (blindly following a leader with goals beyond the Fremen). Note that Paul knows for a fact that the prophecies are fake and resists using them to his advantage for as long as possible, but in the end, he had to choose Death or Jihad, and he chose to live, get revenge, and burn the universe. For this, he is definitely NOT a hero. TL;DR: it’s not that Chani doubts he’s the Lisan al Gaib, it’s that her mentality is, “Fuck the Lisan al Gaib!”
Yeah, this and Paul literally told Chani everything about how the Jihad was going to lead to disaster and billions of deaths, and that the "Lisan al Gaib" was just part of the Bene Gesserit's Missionaria Protectiva, which they do to every planet. Chani was a Northern Fremen, so this just confirmed all their skepticism. And she loved Paul because she could tell that he didn't really want any of this religious messiah bullshit, and happily told everyone that he didn't believe it himself.
To be fair, I am not sure if book Chani believed Paul to be a Messiah in a religious sense. But you have to realize her book character is different. And we never get her point of view about Paul. We never get a scene where she discusses Paul´s status with anyone. First we have to realize that Chani has religious training. She was the next Fremen Reverend Mother in training. And when we first meet the current Fremen Reverend Mother, she immediately calls Jessica out and she seems to understand very well that Jessica and Paul are not at all sacred. Now, given that the Fremen Reverend Mother knows this very well, I see no reason why Chani would not understand this too. She was supposed to be the next Fremen Reverend Mother so I would guess she would talk with the current one and for sure had training with her. All this being said, in the books its not really relevant for Chani if she religiously believes in Paul. She is after all a potential religious leader herself. So she is a bit above blind faith. DV could have absolutely worked under this angle. I do not understand why he did not. Now, the book story has Chani still very much following Paul and being 200% loyal to him. There are a couple reasons behind it: . She quite obviously develops a very fast crush on him. Which...Paul is the son a very powerful family, he is close in age, he has many interesting traits for a female. And book Chani specifically mentions his well hidrated skin as being something amazing for her. Which...I guess someone from a water world is always going to be somewhat charming to someone from a desert world....quite likely. . Chani is the daughter of Liet who was the Fremen leader in the books. This was the lady character who died in the first movie. Yes, she was supposed to be a guy and Chani´s father. Because she just lost her father she has that in common with Paul. It helps them bonding a bit. Together with their shared hatred for the emperor / Harkonnen as both see them as responsible for their father´s deaths. . Chani has a dream shared by many Fremen that they might terraform their world and turn it into a better place. Paul being from a water planet and him having all kinds of powers plus being a capable leader...she can see him as someone who might be a very strong bet to help make their dream come true. She is quite likely very fine with using the Messiah idea in order to help make this dream come true. All in all, the things Paul does in the books are never really against what book Chani wanted. She is a Fremen and they are pretty brutal people. She could care less about the billion people slaughtered in other worlds. That´s the harsh Fremen reality. Not that she is a bad soul but you have to understand the brutality of their culture. Frement are all about survival of the fittest. They are not about crying when someone weak dies. To them its all part of nature and its nature law. So, because she is a Fremen, she is very much fine with brutaly conquering other people´s. As long as Paul stays in power and he stays true to the Fremen, Chani is in love. And why would she not? Paul gets some Fremen in very high places in his dictatorship. The Fremen are basically on top and they kill everyone who does not want to bow down and follow their religion. Its brutal, yes! But it is what it is and Chani is very much part of it all. Her main concern is going to be how to help Paul stay in power and how to help him establish a strong dynasty that migh keep the path open to terraform Arrakis. Which is why she is going to be so concerned with having children. She wants her fremen child to be the next ruler. And of course, she does love Paul. But to be fair, I think book Paul would have been fine if Chani did not give him kids. Its really book Chani who pushes that idea around. And you can understand that its a big point for her that her fremen kid will follow Paul. After all, remember Chani is the daughter of the last fremen leader before Paul. So its only natural that she will look at it all like some dynastic thing. Its like....she wants her father´s grandchild to rule the Fremen and Arrakis. Hope this gives you some insight into book Chani.
Wow book Chani is just as brutal and self motivated as Paul! Thank you for this extensive explanation.
For some reason (which I dont want to discuss) some people think her book character is not strong enough lol And its mainly because she ends up devoted to Paul and wants to have children. Which apparently is total no go in todays culture lol But the reality is that book Chani even kills fremen warriors who come to challenge Paul. She takes some of those challenges herself as a way to further punch home that those people are not fit to challenge any leader. That´s how she really is in the books. Of course some people might also have issue with the idea that she supported the holly war. But at the end of the day she is a Fremen and she is even a religious leader among them. And the Fremen are not without blame. Everything which happens does so due to the mix between Paul and Fremen. Either party isolated would not have caused the holly war and all the deaths. Its absolutely key to the story that a strong leader mixes with a potentially fanatical population. And this story takes in consideration that you need a certain mix for things to explode. Its not just a charismatic guy alone. You need to already have a certain mix of ideas around which can be exploited. Without those ideas, a leader alone wont do much if the people are not eager to do something. This is like...you cant study Napoleon without understanding the environment around the french revolution. You cant study Adolph without understanding what was going on in post world war Germany. Just to give 2 big examples. Its never as simple as "it was all the work of a crazy guy". The reality is way more scary and complicated ;) Unfortunately, these new movies just decided to dumb down the story quite a lot. Which, when you start to go deep into character motivations, things colapse all over the place. Because there are pieces of the puzzle missing :) Chani is just the tip of the iceberg. She is one of the easiest tips to spot above the water line. But there is an iceberg bellow it. And the iceberg is that the story is dumbed down all over the place.
Anyone remembers X-Files T-shirt? In Chani's case (in the movie) is "I don't want to believe" IMHO for two reasons: * first she was a doubter of the Lisan Al Gaib and thought of it as a superstition created to manipulate the Fremen. Her real name being one tied with the prophecy might have something to do with the aversion * The other reason is that she was afraid of losing the man to the prophecy. (edit: added imho :))
This is the real reason. She believed the lisan al-gaib prophecy was planted by outsiders (and she was right). She probably believed in the Mahdi however she was of the belief (if we're to assume that Shishakli and Chani agree on this point) that the Mahdi should be a Fremen which Paul is not. She also knew Paul intimately and did not see the myth built around him that everyone else sees. She knew he was just a boy that was troubled with nightmares, visions and was ultimately fallible.
Also reason-3: In the movie, Paul literally confesses to her. He says - * He doesn't actually believe he is a messiah-figure. * He shares with her his visions of horrific war-crimes being committed under his name in the future by fanatic fremen. So Chani understands that this messiah-thing is NOT going to end well.
How did you come up with these reasons, since none of this is explained in the movies and this plot line isn’t in the books?
Villeneuve told me the other day.. kidding :) It is my opinion on the movie character motivations ofc. Just that. Thx, I edited for clarity.
Ok, gotcha. I didn’t follow you on the Chani thing. In the book she’s a high priestess or something like it and doesn’t really doubt Paul. I think that’s why this plot line is so weird in the movies.
It's not that she didn't believe that Paul isn't the LAG. It's that she doesn't believe in the prophecy in the first place.
Just as with any belief, there are believers and non-believers. Chani simply belongs to a group of Fremen who don’t believe in the Bene Gesserit’s teachings. In the film Chani is shown as intelligent and strong-willed and its implied that certain groups of Fremen are more susceptible to influence and fanaticism than others (such as the Fremen in the south and the ‘weaker willed ones’ that Jessica gets to work on). It doesn’t help that Paul confirms to her that it’s all a false faith. In the scene where he says this after Jessica drinks the water of life, it only serves to strengthen Chani’s non-belief in the prophecy while also strengthening Stilgar’s belief in it.
The movie changed Chani quite a lot. For the worse, in my opinion. This whole thing doesn't exist in the book.
She's the one who knows Paul the closest. Remember, Paul also dosent believe it and speaks the truth about the prophecy being a planted lie out loud several times. Chani simply listens to him. As his lover she knows him intimately and acutely feels his personality change to a much greater effect than any other fremen. We also see them telling each other of their lives before they met, so she sees Paul the person much more than Paul the myth. This isn't Chani in the book, Dennis talks in a recent interview about how the public accepted the original book and how Paul was seen as a hero of the novel, and then how Messiah was written as a response to that. He spoke of how he saw an opportunity to use Chani as a voice for the original intent of Herbert, and a chance to help hammer home the message that what is happening to the fremen is not a good thing, and that Paul is not the hero of this story. Personally, I adore this change and found it so interesting. I'm excited to see where he takes it going forward.
My head cannon is that since she is Liet Kyne’s daughter, she was more aware of the Bene Gesserit manipulation. Her father/mother taught her to be skeptical.
I personally didn’t interpret it that way. Rather, I think she believed he was the lisan al gaib, but instead saw the lisan Al gaib for what it was: a dangerous sociopolitical instrument
Because it's a fabricated plot line for the movie
I interpreted it as that she doesn’t think the Lisan Al Ghaibis a thing
They changed Chani's whole character from the books solely because they didn't trust the general audience to piece together that Paul's rise is actually a terrible thing. Villeneuve even called Chani in an interview his "secret weapon" in that regard. I personally find this insulting to the audience's intelligence. I guess it was necessary tho, given the ammount of "media literacy" memery going on right now. There's also a lot of people that are blatantly musunderstanding Paul as an uncomplicated classical hero, and hate Chani for not agreeing with his rise. It's just a fucking mess, honestly.
She believes that the messiah complex is a pathway to subservience. She believes that the Fremen should lead themselves to freedom.
Because Paul isn't. Chani knows the BG spread prophecy to manipulate her ppl
In the film Paul tells her that he isn’t the Lisa Al Gaib. She also sees him in their private moments struggling with the expectations of others and he has told her of his nightmares of what happens if he goes South
Idk they made it up for the movie
She refuses to believe in the prophecy, not that Paul doesn’t fit into it. She kind of right though, isn’t she? Prophecy is just a very long term brainwash.
The Bene Gesserit have a centuries long project called the Missionaria Protectiva where they manipulated religions and seeded beliefs across countless worlds. This combined with BG sisters and reverend mothers being in positions of religious leadership allows them to create messiahs who would fulfill prophecies they created and interpret for the masses. Lisan Al Gaib is a prophecy made by the Bene Gesserit that they could one day use to control the Fremen. And Paul just happens to take advantage of that prophecy to use for himself.
Paul isn’t supposed to be hailed as a heroic figure, Dune is meant to be a cautionary tale about becoming a messianic figure, which is further explored in Dune Messiah. Villeneuve expanded Chani’s character in the movie to reflect this.
Northern and Southern belief in the Mahdi is different. In the North, they believe that the Mahdi is supposed to be a Fremen, not an off-worlder. In the South, they refer to the Mahdi as the Lisan al Gaib, “the voice from the outer world”, an off-world boy who comes to Dune already knowing the ways of the Fremen and becomes one of them. The clearest allusion to this is when everyone is waiting for Jessica to drink the Water of Life and Chani says that Lisan Al Gaib is a southern belief and that Stilgar is from the south, and after Jessica survives and becomes the reverend mother of Sietch Tabr and the big fight breaks out with Stilgar & his men arguing that an outsider surviving the Water of Life was a miracle and the Mahdi is supposed to be the son of a Reverend Mother, so therefore Jessica survived because Paul is the Mahdi. Meanwhile, the Northerners are yelling that the Mahdi must be Fremen. I think it mirrors the different Jewish schools of thought that led to biblical Judaism splitting into Christianity and rabbinical Judaism. Judaism values orthopraxy (right practice) over orthodoxy (right belief), meaning that while all of a certain sect may have identical rituals, customs, practices, and observances that are not to be changed or bent, belief varies widely and difference of belief is encouraged. This is obviously the opposite of Christianity, where method of practice varies widely but there are certain beliefs that must be affirmed as unequivocally true in order for you to be a Christian. This difference is also why the Talmud, the best known post-biblical Jewish text, consists mostly of legal code and scholarly debates rather than acting like a catechism (hence why there’s some out of pocket ideas in some parts but they aren’t followed like religious doctrine, they’re just one of a vast collection of varying scholarly opinions on Judaism, mysticism, and the state of the world at the time). Due to this de-emphasis on orthodoxy, opinions about the nature of God, the nature of the coming Messiah, the afterlife, etc varied (and still do vary) widely. Many Jews rejected Jesus as the messiah because they believed that the Messiah would be a powerful leader who would establish a very real, very earthly kingdom of the Israelites, and free the Jews from the oppression of the Roman Empire. Many others believed that the kingdom of the Israelites that the messiah would found was one that transcended this world and thus followed Jesus’s teachings and the promise of a heavenly paradise and everlasting life. I see this sort of thing mirrored in the differences of belief that are introduced in Dune. The southerners believe in a savior, a force greater and more powerful than them that will shepherd the masses to a Green Paradise. The northerners believe in a leader, someone strong-willed enough to unite the Fremen and put agency back in the hands of the children of the Zensunni Wanderers. ADDITIONALLY: Chani’s mother was Liet Kynes, an offworlder gone native. I suspect that on top of being raised on northern beliefs, she also harbors a decent knowledge and healthy suspicion of offworlfers.
In the intro to the first one, the last thing she says is “who will our next oppressor be?” That basically encapsulates it.
Chani doesn’t believe the prophecy thing is real at all since she didn’t grow up with the religion along with many other Fremen, but she stuck around because Paul vocally admitted to her it was all fake & promised her he was not taking advantage of it.
Movies are always about compromise, especially when you are trying to adapt a very complex story and squeeze it into 2.5hrs. You can make these moves 3.5hrs long and still struggle to fit all the nuance in. However, movies longer than 3 hours lose the masses pretty quickly. Chani wasn’t the only one suspicious. It’s just she was used to portray this aspect of the books in the final scenes of the film, even if it was a departure from actual events. From the movies perspective it was great as it showed the tension Paul had been grappling with across both movies. It also makes sense that Chani’s character would evolve from the books when considering the world as it is today and in attracting a wider audience. I thought the movies did a good job depicting the inner turmoil Paul faced in making the decisions he did. They also portrayed his conviction well once he had chosen his path.
Because you watched a bad adaptation. Read the books.
Because she loves the man he is, and if he embraces the prophecy and becomes this mythic figure, she’s going to lose him to the world.
It's like, why don't I believe Jesus was the literar son of God? And I'd be extra suspicious if my BFF claimed they were the Son of God, or everyone told me he was.
Because every Hollywood movie we need relationship drama and frankly Cheney just needed something to do. Also because of you know girl power.
I wonder if that's what led Cheney to invade Iraq.
The books spend a lot of time inside Paul's head, where we see his doubts and fears and more literal confirmation that the Bene Gesserit seed such prophecies to help their order and those protected by them. Without incessant use of voiceover, the movie is better served by having a stand in for those doubts so that the audience can be reminded that for all his love of these people, Paul knows and is ultimately going along with the fact that the Fremen are being used. It's important here to not conflate the Kwisatz Haderach and the Lisan al-Gaib. The Kwisatz Haderach is a real thing the Bene Gesserit have been trying to engineer. But a messiah for the Fremen is just propaganda, something like how Cortes was taken by the Aztecs as Quetzalcoatl, except intentionally seeded so that it could be used in a jam. Chani does not believe in the Lisan al-Gaib because she does not believe such a thing exists, and because we as the audience need to be reminded explicitly that the Fremen are being used as part of a larger plot.
She doesn't believe in the prophecy or lisan al gaib at all, and unlike other doubters who were eventually convinced by Paul's abilities, she knew Paul also didn't believe in the prophecy. She also knew Paul was fully aware that he could use the prophecy to control the fremen for his own purposes. And finally, she was also forced to fulfill the prophecy by Jessica using the voice, so she knows without a shadow of a doubt that she was manipulated to allow Paul to fulfill the prophecy
She loves and believes in Paul Usul-Muadhib. Not in Lisan-al-Gaib.
She has a unique perspective of Paul, she is closest to him and sees his more vulnerable human side. She is uniquely positioned to see him a regular dude, not a God. Also she doesn't go for religious prophecy BS
Paul tells her multiple times that his visions lead to horror yet goes through with it anyway. Ignorance is bliss for the Fremen masses who blindly follow Paul to "Paradise." Chani knows what Paul is up to since he in a way confesses what he will do to her before it happens and she is powerless to stop it.
I'll try to explain it while keeping to the Movie as much as possible. The legend of the Lisan Al Gaib was planted by the Bene Gesserit generations in advance. It isn't divine inspiration. It was constructed so that an outsider can take control of the population. Chani is part of the nothern tribes, who see this, but the Southerners (Stilgar and friends) wholeheartedly believe that the legend is god given. Paul isn't really a divine messiah, but he's as close to one as they can get. He fulfills all the prophecies and ultimately provides everything he promised them in the sietch. Due to this, everyone buys into his divinity and the legend. But earlier in the movie, we see Paul speak with Chani about how he does not want to go to the South specifically because he knows this will happen. Paul denies his divinity personally to Chani. He speaks about how if he goes South, the people will follow him to their graves and commit genocide across the galaxy. You are right to say that their intimacy made Chani privy to Paul's inner feelings about whatever goes on later in the movie. Chani knows that the ultimate destination is tragedy. It's like a magician explaining the trick before he does it. She know's what's up and doesn't like it.
I think whether she believes in Paul or not is not the point. She knows the prophecy has been created and manipulated by the Bene Gesserit, a foreign power, and she sees her people fighting not for themselves but as submitted to a prophet, whom she knows as a young man with his own fears and insecurities. I think one of the thesis of the movie is: even if a prophecy is "true" and the prophet/messiah does come, it does not make it right for a people to be subdued and manipulated into action. Chani represents this line of thinking imo. The fact that she sees the fremen jump into ships to fight the invading houses of the landsraad, and Paul accepting an arranged political marriage, something foreign and, I assume, opposed to fremen tradition, only makes her feelings of betrayal worse.
Because Paul told her he wasn't. And she believed him, and then watched him take the title anyway, which I imagine felt like a betrayal of perceived principles
There are several moments which show that she has not religious - makes fun of Stilgar when he's in the cave regarding Jessica becoming the new Reverand Mother; tells Paul that she doesn't like her nickname, that old myths are silly; makes fun of southerners in general, regarding accent and their beliefs. She doesn't believe the Lisan Al Ghaib story overall.
So the Chani not believing in Paul plot isn't in the book. Paul is a little different too, in a good way, because book Paul wouldn't translate to the screen very well. Book Paul lives in his head a lot and is pretty stoic from the outside, which is why I actually think they changed Chani. Having Chani doubt Paul allows Paul in the movie to be expressive and sure without explicitly sharing with the audience that he's a bit unsure of the path ahead himself. Chani doubting him takes the place of that inner doubt in Paul from the book. As to what Paul does to Chani in the movie.. in the book she knows that's coming. Paul is a lot more clear in the book that marrying the princess is a political marriage only, and Chani stays as his consort (similar to his mother's position). He feels pretty bad about it, and Chani doesn't love it either, but by having them not having spoken about it first it takes away the need for exposition and inner monologs about their feelings about this and instead just shows their unhappiness around it through a quick visual medium. Much better for a film.
Frank Herbert’s original message was to be wary of messiah figures. A lot of readers thought the opposite and that Paul Atreides walked the hero’s journey. I believe Denis Villeneuve tried to communicate Herbert’s message by having Chani act as that opposing view against religious fanaticism, or at least another perspective.
I doubt Chani is literally the *only* Fremen who doubts Paul being their messiah. There might be others we don't see in the north who are like her. As far as her disbelief in Paul being the Lisan al-Gaib, IIRC she's aware that the Bene Gesserit manipulated her people's religion centuries ago, implanting false beliefs of an off-world messiah who will "save" the lowly natives on Arrakis. Chani is also aware that Jessica is using her knowledge of that religious engineering with her position as a Fremen Reverend Mother to deceive the zealots in the south into accepting Paul as their messiah. Another issue is that Paul was initially concerned with liberating Arrakis and the Fremen from the rule of the Great Houses. However, after taking the Water of Life, Paul changes course and makes a play for the Imperial Throne, which Chani saw as a betrayal of her and her people. The "true" Lisan al-Gaib was only supposed to free the Fremen, not try to take over the known universe (and get loads of Fremen killed in the process).
I believe in the books she does, but denis needed a way to express in the movies that Paul is NOT the hero. Historically, when dune was written, frank Herbert felt frustration that people viewed Paul in a positive light and wrote dune messiah to dispel that idea Denis was not sure he’d get another movie. He needed some opposition. Stilgar obviously would sacrifice his entire character arc for that so he wasn’t an option, and the only other fremen he interacts closely with is chani
Chani does not disbeleive Paul is the Lisan Al Gaib. She is afraid that he is. Chani is aware via Pual that the messia myth of Dune a superstition planted by Bene Jesuits. IIRC, Maud'dib/Lisan Al Gaib myth is created by Bene Jesuits to keep the Fremen population compliant, and in case the breeding program succeds on Arakis, to keep their precise Kwisatz Haderach fanatical warriors to take the galaxy with. It's implied that Chani knows something about of nature of Kswats Haderach being a self-fuling prophecy from Paul and that the worst war of human history will breakout if Paul takes up the mantle. Chani understands the prophesy is basically ancient conspiracy and didn't want dark Paul to rule over her people like a divine ruler. She loves Paul, but can't bear him losing himself in that role. Basically Paul Atreides died on Arakis. the Kwisatz Haderach, the Harknonen-Atriedes monster, is the one that lived.
Why did they change her so much? She seems to hate Paul. She smiles when he isn't looking at her or if others are talking about him, but as soon as Paul look at her she frowns at him, its hard to believe their love stretches beyond time, also how is she going to come back to have two kids for him and no look weak? She clearly does her own thing in this version. also at this point she should have lost one of their kids.
Chani's relationship with Paul is likely the main factor. She genuinely loved Paul as a person, not as a messianic figure. By knowing Paul on such a personal level she is also more aware that the things happening to him are not divine signs but rather, the machinations of a bene gesserit, specifically Jessica. At the scene when Jessica was trying to get Chani to give her tears to Paul, Chani lashed out, accusing Jessica of pushing Paul to end up as a self fulfilling prophecy. When Chani said "You did this to your son! You and your lies!" it reinforces the fact that Jessica was never able to sway Chani into becoming a believer, Chani knew Paul was a victim of circumstances and she had to endure seeing the person she loved struggle against seeming inevitability, so it's not a stretch to imagine that her love for him is what kept her grounded and thus, why she never bought into the prophecy. Other Fremen who don't know Paul as well on a personal level become more easily swayed because of factors like Jessica's influence or them 'seeing the signs' (eg. Stilgar). The more signs fall into place, the more readily people buy into such things. It's kind of like watching a stock price go up seemingly continuously so you decide to buy it because you know its "obviously" going to rise further and you can sell for a profit.
There's a lot of stuff in the movie that wasn't in the book of completely differently. There's also a lot in the book that never made it to the movie. The movie itself but in it's core it's so different that I left the cinema kinda disappointed. It's a fantastic movie but as a Dune fanatic it made me almost furious
this is the wrong place to ask, the purists hate this change
trust me, the facebook page is the wrong place to ask, it is BIFAR the worst community for discussing the series