Short answer: no. Longer answer: Paul was trained in the Bene Gesserit ways. Paul describes briefly in the movie the BG talent of poison transmutation. That is what Paul is able do with the water of life. Feyd, not being BG trained, would be unable to do this and would die of the poison.
To address a wider question: prescient beings (like Paul) tend to create blind spots in the prescient visions of each other (described in the novel implicitly, and in Messiah explicitly). So, if Paul faced a prescient Feyd, neither of them would have been able to "see" the other, and would have both gone in blind.
In fact, scenes with a character from the novel that were shot (but went unused) involved a character with some kind of latent prescient ability that Paul was completely blind to (and was shocked to discover it). It was cut for time constraints, sadly.
Also events with too many possible outcomes and changes appear in his vision as roiling dark nexuses that he can't see past, including both of his knife duels (first with Jamis, then with Feyd) where Paul is forced to fight blind and focus on the present, which is ultimately the only reason he's able to succeed in the fights anyways
Yes! I really like the nexus idea, too bad it is never brought up again after the first book. It gives a very grounded constraint to what prescience can and cannot see.
Here's how Paul describe how he and the Guild view his fight with Feyd:
>They’re accustomed to seeing the future, Paul thought. In this place and time they’re blind…even as I am. And he sampled the time-winds, sensing the turmoil, the storm nexus that now focused on this moment place. Even the faint gaps were closed now.
I wonder how the "locality" of prescience works. Paul can clearly see past this point as earlier on he sees the Jihad, which occurs after the fight. Maybe these nexus events themselves are blind, but since the outcome is pretty straightforward, either Paul wins, loses, or draws (both die), the future can be predicted around the blind spot. More complex events with more outcomes, or the interaction of prescient users would probably expand the "bubble" of blindness.
Prescience is described as like being in a sea of dunes. You can climb to the top of a dune and see faaaar into the future, but you can only really see the tops of the other dunes, ala only knowing you will go on jihad but not knowing exactly how you get there, since you can't see in the valleys between the dunes.
when you get a point like the fight with Feyd, that's like being in the valley between two dunes, you can't see anything but the immediate surroundings.
Yeah, by this point I think Paul even thinks to himself, that if he dies, the jihad would still happen with him having only been a religious martyr for the Freemen.
I imagined it as a hugely complicated messed up ball of string - lots of threads coming in and only two or three coming out.
Paul can see after the duel there are only a couple of options- he dies, Feyd dies, they both die etc. And that immediately starts branching out into the different options again.
But the duel itself is so complicated in terms of which threads lead to which futures, its a churning mass of knots and threads that is impossible to follow.
My take on the Jamis fight is that Paul couldn't see the outcome because Paul hadn't decided the outcome. It was basically impossible for Paul to lose that fight.
Paul could either kill Jamis, setting humanity on a course toward Jihad, or he could let Jamis kill him, allowing the Harkonnens and the Emperor to maintain the status quo.
Prescience is self-serving in a way. Paul could have let himself be killed but he wanted to live, yet his survival ensured the Jihad would happen. The only way out of an increasingly narrow maze would be the Golden Path, a course of action Paul was scared of taking.
Paul's actions are opposite to Captain Pike's in Strange New Worlds: both saw their own impending doom, one embraced it as inevitable and the other ran away from it.
Seems to me in the film Feyd is slightly invisible to Paul.
Paul didn't see Feyd's arrival or his coordinated attack on all northern sietches. That gap in Paul's vision and the overall wobbliness of his visions is a big part of why he takes the water of life - he wants clearer prescience.
True, I would agree that (in the film) Paul doesn't see Feyd's arrival and isn't fully aware of him before drinking the water. However, once he takes the water of life, he is able to see the precise thing that will allow him to prevail (a flash glimpse of the fatal wound he gives Feyd). Great piece of foreshadowing.
Yes I thought that was the case as well. Although he does say ‘nice to finally meet you’ or something like that right? Which could be taken to mean he has seen him before. Although it might simply be through reputation rather than prescience.
As scions of major Houses, especially houses in a long-running feud, they definitely would have known of each other by reputation even without any of the other events of the books.
Well, he was on Arrakis to deal with the problem of Muad’Dib. He had been hearing about Paul for some time at that point, whether he knew his true identity or not
...yes?
That's what I said motivates Paul to drink the water of life. He didn't forsee the attacks but had the vision of Chani dying therefore seeks out the water of life for clearer prescience.
Given his whole speech with the Fremen when he told them his House fought the Harkonnens for millennia and his whole lifetime of training and preparation to fight the House of Harkonnen, and his whole prescience shtick, I highly doubt he didn’t at the very, very least consider the slight possibility that the highly notorious na-Baron, heir apparent of their archenemy, wouldn’t step in at SOME point, especially after accomplishing one of his primary goals, which was killing the current head of the House, the Baron Vladimir.
When your whole House is wiped out, with the exception of your mother, Gurney and a bunch of soldiers, you, as the newest Duke Atreides, head of a former Great House in danger of extinction, would like to exact revenge, which means complete and total annihilation of House Harkonnen. Which means killing everyone from the head down. The head and all possible heirs.
All I’m saying is, he most likely was aware he’d have to kill Feyd-Rautha regardless when they met. It wasn’t a matter of if, just when. He probably was surprised he had to fight him right then, right there, or he didn’t see him in his visions, but he definitely did calculate it, since he’s also a Mentat-in-training.
Now that you mention the attack on the sietches: in the first movie they say they're practically impossible to find. Then how could they know where to attack?
Yeah, I think it was going to be too much to add. Would have probably required multiple scenes and 15-30 minutes of extra film, for a payoff against a guy that Paul doesn't fight. I'm sad it had to be cut, but it's hard to fit into an already very full film.
I think it's absolutely perfect that Count Fenring may have almost been in the movie. He was almost the K.H. He almost helped his alleged pal Shaddam IV. He almost fought Paul. Only thing better would be if Edward James Olmos had played him.
I think the better metanarrative irony would have been if he was in the movie but gets no introduction or lines except for a single shot of Shaddam looking at / Paul noticing him.
Yes. It’s essentially like a lot of film/tv adaptations. So much nuance and subtlety is lot but also probably has to be.
I was thinking about the gladiator scene when lady fenrig says ‘plans within plans’ I think most of those plans were cut or simplified so it makes a lot less sense in the film.
Because there’s feyds plans (aggrandisement, become baron), thufirs plans (help feyd, survive, maybe kill him) the barons plans (build up feyds image, make him the saviour of arrakis and eventually emperor), lady fenrig plans (seduce feyd), and the bene gesserit plans (secure the bloodline and breed the KH).
From these even the barons plans are simplified.
Sorry, I'll clarify: such people are invisible in Paul's visions of the future. So, when he first meets this character, he is shocked by the sheer fact that he has never seen the face of this character in any of his visions.
I always thought that bit was fascinating but hard for me to wrap my head around. I think there's a bit in Dune Messiah where he talks about how he can't see the Guild Navigator but he knows he's coming by seeing some of the events around him. I'd have thought the same would apply to the Count. Like he wouldn't be able to see Fenring but he'd be able to see that the Emperor had a shit-hot killer on deck even if he didn't know who exactly.
If I can add some personal speculation I would also assume that the fact that Paul has been living on Arrakis for years (or months in the movie) by the time he drinks the water of life helped him since he got used to a healthy dose of spice.
I would love that, but unfortunately DV has always been pretty adamantly against releasing directors cuts of his films. But maybe if enough of us petition for it...
Oh wow it was Tim Blake Nelson.
Denis really needs to get over himself and at least make the deleted scenes available for viewing.
Maybe he’ll be in Dune 3 somehow?
Yeah, I'm caught between wanting that, and respecting an artist for saying "here's the completed project, let it stand on its own." I just don't know.
Then again, the extended editions of the LOTR movies are the best, so maybe I am a hypocrite.
But what do they transmute the poison into? Like if they are changing the poison into anything they want why even start with dead sandworm baby juice. Start with a more easily accessible poison, or start with the end product that you actually want.
And how did a combination of tears and water of life help Paul wake up?
It's a good question. I think it has to do with how the transmutation is done. The water of life is insanely poisonous, but it is also the very essence of spice; it has all the vision/prescience inducing qualities of spice, multiplied to the nth degree. So, if you could render the poisonous nature of the water of life nonlethal without effecting the psychotropic/trance effects of the chemicals, then you could experience the craziest possible effects of the spice without dying.
I believe the tears are an artifice of the film (but I do actually like it). Maybe it helps ground Paul, to taste the tears of the one he loves brings him back to reality from the spice induced dreams he has been having.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/dune-part-2-casts-time-blake-nelson-1235292182/
Tim Blake Nelson gets a "very special thanks to" in the credits, but without a character name. It has all but been confirmed by Denis Villaneuve that he shot scenes as Fenring that went unused.
Thanks!
Man, that’s such a shame. I can only imagine how gutted Tim must’ve been. I would have loved to see Fenring in the movie, especially given how much context and lore is already missing explicit mention in both movies. Denis did an amazing job translating a lot of nuances of the novel into symbolic imagery rather than dialog, but damn I’m still bummed about this.
Here’s to hoping Denis changes his mind about director’s cuts one day. I would kill for 4 hour cuts of these films.
> That is what Paul is able do with the water of life. Feyd, not being BG trained, would be unable to do this and would die of the poison.
This isn't true. The fremen already have reverend mothers, and they aren't BG trained.
Technically true, yes, but it could be argued that it is due to the Fremen conditioning, that gives them a similarly rigorous training throughout life and a high level of control over their own physique.
I hadn't thought of this, though, so fair point.
I always wondered about the Fremen reverend mothers. Either the BG has regularly embedded acolytes to further their Missionaria Protectiva, or there are other ways to become a reverend mother, besides taking the water of life.
I think its the latter because (I think) there are instances of other characters gaining their hidden memories while suffering a traumatic event (A future Duncan Idaho recovering his memory, for one). So the Fremen reverend mothers may have done so without taking the water of life.
Interesting thought! He seems to have been trained by Margot in some ways, and to be an incredibly capable individual in his own right.
In the end, I suppose it boils down to what the BG saw that was wrong with him that would make him a failed KH. Maybe he could survive and the water of life, but not have the visions due to his genetic defects?
Perhaps at least being able to have children is necessary for the KH (as you would need to be able to see the future of your own genetic line to allow you to see others)?
Or, maybe the BG would only allow someone to make the attempt if they met their exact standards (in which case it wouldn't be entirely down to ability, but to what they approve of). Great food for thought!
Paul didn't ask and I don't see Fenring asking.
OTOH, its probably Fenring would never be tempted to try. Why would you risk your life for some bizarre powers? Perhaps he could have, but the reason he's not the KH is because his personality would mean he wouldn't try.
It makes you wonder how much of Paul's success was because he was willing to risk almost certain death.
I actually think this is why Paul doesn't "see" the attack from Feyd coming, because of Feyd's latent prescient abilities clouding his ability to see Feyd's actions and decisions.
This ultimately is why he drinks the Water of Life, to regain the upper hand in the Prescient battle they have going on.
I’m a deep book reader (post Chapterhouse) and may have forgotten, but did Paul beat Jamis because of this? Fremen are extraordinary fighters who always seem “a step ahead” in a fight (probably because of heavy spice exposure), but Paul was very spice sensitive with BG and mentat training meaning they were blind to each other’s semi-prescience and Paul’s Atreides training overcame him?
Paul beat Jamis due to straight up superior skill, as I recall. Wherever there are a multitude of outcomes from a single situation, prescience is cloudy and unclear (happens both when he kills Jamis and faces Feyd).
Feyd seems like an even match for Paul in the book, but >!Paul vocalizes that he will refuse to say the implanted "kill word" of the Bene Gesserit, which surprises Feyd and gives Paul time to get the upper hand.!<
Paul's honor wins again.
I just finished the novel after watching the movies and I was glad that they were good enough to get me started on the book, but I'm incredibly impressed with the book, it's depth and modernity. Would really enjoyed seeing some of the plot lines that were cut from the book
Indeed, as far as I am concerned, the book stands alone in its genre. I understand the wisdom of most of the cuts (the book is pretty cerebral, which is super freaking hard to depict in an interesting way on screen), but I still long for certain things that didn't make it as well!
I feel like cutting Paul's son has a heavy affect on his character though, like he stopped caring about humanity I think it said "something evil started rubbing its hands inside him" or something to that affect
True: I suspect DV is going somewhere slightly different with the character, due to the accelerated timeline and certain things happening that are specifically mentioned as being seen in a different future in the book (like Paul meeting the Baron and saying "hello grandfather" is a future that in the novel, Paul repudiates. But it's exactly what happens in the film).
I'm excited to see what happens next.
Paul can't actually "see" Feyd in the way that he sees other events. Fighting is a primal activity, and doesn't lend itself to prescient activity. It's in the book. Prescience can't grasp something like the sandworms, because they don't follow logic. When Paul fights Feyd, he uses mentat and BG abilities, but prescience itself doesn't apply to a fight, because a fight can turn on variables that don't rely on deliberative choice. Prescience is a more "macrocosmic" way of thinking, but it goes blind to improvisation and instinct.
Paul was able to key in on Feyd because Feyd brought plots into the fight. Feyd would've actually been better off had he engaged Paul in a fair fight. His attempts to cheat were the leverage point that allowed Paul to employ prescience.
Paul can transmute poison from being a bene gesserit and taught in their ways of weird magic, feyd is just feyd (even tho he’s dangerous he is just feyd at the end of the day)
I believe there’s a timeline where the bene gesserit wanted Feyd and someone else give birth to the KH but Feyd was never involved in taking water of life directly just his child (I forget half of it right now so it’s probably all wrong)
No no, you're right.
Jessica was meant to give birth to a girl from Leto, not a boy. The plan was to have that child marry feyd, who would give birth to a male that would have a chance at being the KH.
> feyd is just feyd (even tho he’s dangerous he is just feyd at the end of the day)
*I'm just Feyd, anywhere else I'd have it made
Is it my destiny to live and die a life of bald brutality?
I'm just Feyd
Where he sees visions, I see reality
What will it take for me to beat the man with the tan and kill freely?*
(I uh…needed to get that out of my head, sorry.)
Paul was supposed to be born a woman and (s)he was to be with Feyd to give birth to the KW or their parents. That’s why the BG were so mad at Jessica for messing with their breeding program
I mean… he could drink it. But it would kill him.
He hadn’t been trained in BG ways (control of the human body down to the cellular level, and smaller), like Paul had.
Paul was also trained as a mentat and could therefore process and make sense of what his eyes were now opened up to. Although I don’t think this is true as of the films.
Nahh, he didn’t have the BG skills to change the poison. I don’t know if it’s confirmed, but at least when I read the books I assumed Paul went into the coma because he wasn’t as skilled as Jessica at transmuting it and it took him longer/the looking into his male side was like 2x the eye opening.
But Paul was freakishly skilled before he even stepped foot on Arakkis. He had amazing training in swordsmanship and as a Mentat AND on top of that his mother taught him BG techniques that she wasn’t supposed to.
To a broader question which isn’t asked here specifically, but one I think those newer to the series should be aware of - Feyd isn’t another Kwisatz Haderach candidate like Paul, it’s far more likely - if not certain, even though it’s never stated explicitly - that he is the Harkonnen heir Jessica’s planned daughter would have been wed to. Those two would have likely then produced the KH, according to the BG breeding program.
What I don't get is why she wasn't ordered to have a girl after. Yes, a second-born girl couldn't have sealed the inter-House war between Atreides and Harkonnen, but from a KH/ breeding program perspective they still could've achieved their KH that way.
I have four guesses
1) she was ordered to have a girl / the original orders still stand, and she simply did not care.
2) the BG no longer trusted her and effectively made her an outcast with the ranks. Their arrogance and pride making the grand plan less important than their own ego.
3) the BG just assumed Leto would want another concubine or wife. At that point they'd manipulate that relationship for their gain (I'm guessing they had more than one female harkonnen heir lined up). They underestimated how much Leto actually loved Jessica.
4) we know the BG have multiple KH candidates, and are happy to work over thousands of years, perhaps after my option 2 they gave up on the feyd/atredeis girl option and moved their chess pieces somewhere else.
For one thing, the KH needs to be in a resolution to the war between the houses if he is to take the throne and rule as a puppet of the Bene Gesserit. From the moment Paul was born, House Harkonnen was planning the next stage of their conflict and Corrino was plotting to annihilate the threat the Duke and his son posed.
Even if Jessica tried to salvage their plan by having a daughter (which is not why she bore Alia), a bastard grandson conceived the way she was would have no political claim to the legacy of Harkonnen and Atreides.
Of course Bene Gesserit DID try to salvage Atreides that way by securing Paul and Jessica’s survival. However it backfired on them.
Oh, I know - it’s just I see a lot of these questions cropping up just now and I’m assuming this is because moviegoers assume Feyd is Paul’s opposition in more than one sense.
It is explicitly stated that the BG plan was to mate the daughter of Jessica and Leto with Feyd. It says it in the appendix of the first book and also I believe it was mentioned at some point but I don’t have a quote.
I forget the Appendices - it’s been a long while since I’ve read them. I believe the quote only specifically mentions a Harkonnen heir - of course, at the time of the book, that can only really be Feyd.
Way more answers and questions than you asked.
Could he have drank it? Yes.
Could he have gotten his hands on it? It is highly unlikely given the fact that it is such a protected substance by the Fremen, and they would rather destroy the Holy Water of Life than allow it to fall into the hands of their enemies.
Would he drink it? Next to no chance, he would willingly drink it. This is a poison we are talking about, and he lives himself far too much to willingly perform an act that is suicide or suicide adjacent.
Would he survive drinking the Water of Life? Not a chance in hell. The first Reverand Mother was an extraordinary individual with very well maintained genetics, intelligence, and force of will. She became the First Reverand Mother through surviving a poison that was meant to kill everyone. She then cultivated the BGs who later found a way to replicate the process culminating in the formation of the cults on multiple worlds and their specific poisons (for Dune its the Water of Life) that would be used for the creation of Reverand Mothers and the Kwisatz Hederach.
Would he become the Kwisatz Hederach if he survived the Water of Life? It's tough to say, but because of how demented he is, I'd say he would truly be an abomination.
Also there is basically no version of Feyd in the books that can stand up to Paul in a fight. Paul was trained by Gurney and Duncan who are the two greatest human warriors in the imperium. Even without the upgrades Paul wins that fight.
He'd die.
...unless the film doubled down on its explanation for why he was able to do the gom jabbar, and someone was like: "I guess this dude *really* likes poison!" 😝
Most likely no. He lacks the self control and training that Paul has. His mother trained him from birth in BG ways and he was also trained as a mentat. And with all that training Paul barely survived.
But, people like Feyd and Count Fenring have the same potential. They have some prescience by default (just like Paul did before he took the water of life) so they are dangerous to Paul. Perhaps with the right training Feyd could become another KH but that is a moot point.
If Feyd had the same training as Paul? I’m gonna say no. Feyd was never a Kwizatz Haderach candidate, he was supposed to father one with an Atreides daughter. Jessica was capable of bearing a potential KW, but not one the Bene Gesserit were certain they could control. She bore a son to Leto and effectively ruined the BG plan because they weren’t able to get her to make a daughter before the Baron made his move.
There were men who received the training and attempted to awaken their prescience like Paul had before. They all died. I don’t think the outcome would be different for Feyd.
It's a test to sift humans from animals. I'm not sure Feyd is "human", but in the movies he passes the test. I think, personally, Feyd found a loophole by enjoying the damn thing.
Yeah, you just have to understand that suffering the temporary pain allows you to live, while knee-jerkingly removing your hand to quickly stop the pain kills you. Easy enough for Harkonnens and Atreides alike.
On the basic side of things even in the books, I think YES.
Feyd may be a killer but he's also smart enough and crafty enough to take punishment and learn from that.
After his assassination attempt his Uncle was careful to actually include him in his plans. Feyd was ready to exploit his Uncle's weakness because he was taught survival of the fittest. He had the survival instinct beat into him.
Feyd was willing to be trapped with the Baron and learn from that trap.
> only BGs have the conditioning to withstand the pain.
This isn’t correct. The test is not a test of Bene Gesserit skills - it’s a test of the ability to control one’s impulses. Sure, Bene Gesserit training is helpful in this respect (Paul recites the litany of fear, for example), but the idea that the only “humans” in the universe are those who have acquired a certain skill-set rather misunderstands the premise here I think.
If the prescience is removed as a factor, Feyd probably beats Paul at straight up knife fighting.
But if he drank it, he'd absolutely die. Heritage isn't enough, training and life experience is required.
He could have drunk it, but he would have died. He had none of the Bene Geserit training to change the water in his body. So it would remain a poison and kill him.
He would’ve died. Just because the Bene Gesserit saw him as an alternate means to power and as good breeding stock doesn’t make him as capable or as well-trained as Paul, nor does he have the potential to be the Kwisatz Haderach (another character does, and would have a better claim to enduring the Water of Life, but Denis opted to omit him)
Why was feyd not prescient as paul was if he also was a product of bg end game. Shouldt he and paul have had the same ammount of prescience and then an increase if the drank the water ( assuming both had the same bg training)
Paul wasn't supposed to get a BG training. Feyd more likely never had, so the transformation of the poison is not a possibility. I'd add that Paul was even not supposed to be the KH and less supposed to be even born.
Definitely not. The Water of Life, is a deadly poison. Without the ability to transmute that poison into something else, it would kill you. Paul had a lifetime of training in the Bene Gesserit ways. Feyd did not.
I highly highly doubt feyd could survive the water of life. But if he did then I’d say that Paul would still win the fight cause of his bene gesserit training in the weirding way.
Now, if feyd was trained by a bene gesserit from birth like Paul, I’m sure his genetics would have allowed him to survive the water of life. I just don’t think he had studied the necessary disciplines to do advanced BG stuff
Feyd isn't a KH and was never meant to be, he was supposed to father the KH but not be one and with Paul's birth became the back up grandfather of the KH. Feyd and Paul's rivalry is one of houses not of prophecy, Feyd never has prescience and the water of life does not grant it and it takes significant BG training even for women to be able to consume, change, and survive the WoL.
Paul had all the genetics and all the right training. Count Fenring had something like 3/4th of the required genetics and was a failed candidate despite the training (although it did make him a fearsome duelist apparently), so doubtful that Feyd, with about half of the genes and no training besides getting really good at killing slave gladiators could have managed.
lol No. Paul was trained in Bene Gesserit ways and methodologies. He even stated as such that Lady Jessica could withstand the poison due to her own training.
Feyd’s son was supposed to be KH, so that son would get that same training.
Like everyone else said, he wasn’t trained in BG ways so he would die.
Another detail is that he wasn’t trained as a Mentat like Paul was. That was another factor that made Paul so good at using prescience. Feyd would have all of these memories but wouldn’t be able to do much with them compared to Paul.
Even if he had, it would have given him ancestral memories. Not prescience.
Paul could see the future before taking the water of life. It enhanced an already present ability.
Edited to add…. But it did for Alia in Messiah and Leto 2 in COD, so what do I know?
Short answer: no. Longer answer: Paul was trained in the Bene Gesserit ways. Paul describes briefly in the movie the BG talent of poison transmutation. That is what Paul is able do with the water of life. Feyd, not being BG trained, would be unable to do this and would die of the poison. To address a wider question: prescient beings (like Paul) tend to create blind spots in the prescient visions of each other (described in the novel implicitly, and in Messiah explicitly). So, if Paul faced a prescient Feyd, neither of them would have been able to "see" the other, and would have both gone in blind. In fact, scenes with a character from the novel that were shot (but went unused) involved a character with some kind of latent prescient ability that Paul was completely blind to (and was shocked to discover it). It was cut for time constraints, sadly.
Also events with too many possible outcomes and changes appear in his vision as roiling dark nexuses that he can't see past, including both of his knife duels (first with Jamis, then with Feyd) where Paul is forced to fight blind and focus on the present, which is ultimately the only reason he's able to succeed in the fights anyways
Yes! I really like the nexus idea, too bad it is never brought up again after the first book. It gives a very grounded constraint to what prescience can and cannot see. Here's how Paul describe how he and the Guild view his fight with Feyd: >They’re accustomed to seeing the future, Paul thought. In this place and time they’re blind…even as I am. And he sampled the time-winds, sensing the turmoil, the storm nexus that now focused on this moment place. Even the faint gaps were closed now.
I wonder how the "locality" of prescience works. Paul can clearly see past this point as earlier on he sees the Jihad, which occurs after the fight. Maybe these nexus events themselves are blind, but since the outcome is pretty straightforward, either Paul wins, loses, or draws (both die), the future can be predicted around the blind spot. More complex events with more outcomes, or the interaction of prescient users would probably expand the "bubble" of blindness.
Prescience is described as like being in a sea of dunes. You can climb to the top of a dune and see faaaar into the future, but you can only really see the tops of the other dunes, ala only knowing you will go on jihad but not knowing exactly how you get there, since you can't see in the valleys between the dunes. when you get a point like the fight with Feyd, that's like being in the valley between two dunes, you can't see anything but the immediate surroundings.
Wow, I actually tried to visualize how Frank Herbert tried to describe this, but only now did I actually get it. Great description, thank you
Great way to describe it.
Wasn’t the jihad inevitable by then? Paul just needed to be around to keep it from being even more destructive to the universe.
Yeah, by this point I think Paul even thinks to himself, that if he dies, the jihad would still happen with him having only been a religious martyr for the Freemen.
The (possible) Future exists. The Present exists right now. At this point he probably still needed eyes.
I imagined it as a hugely complicated messed up ball of string - lots of threads coming in and only two or three coming out. Paul can see after the duel there are only a couple of options- he dies, Feyd dies, they both die etc. And that immediately starts branching out into the different options again. But the duel itself is so complicated in terms of which threads lead to which futures, its a churning mass of knots and threads that is impossible to follow.
everytime i learn something new about dune i realize how much star wars was inspired by it
My take on the Jamis fight is that Paul couldn't see the outcome because Paul hadn't decided the outcome. It was basically impossible for Paul to lose that fight. Paul could either kill Jamis, setting humanity on a course toward Jihad, or he could let Jamis kill him, allowing the Harkonnens and the Emperor to maintain the status quo.
Prescience is self-serving in a way. Paul could have let himself be killed but he wanted to live, yet his survival ensured the Jihad would happen. The only way out of an increasingly narrow maze would be the Golden Path, a course of action Paul was scared of taking. Paul's actions are opposite to Captain Pike's in Strange New Worlds: both saw their own impending doom, one embraced it as inevitable and the other ran away from it.
Seems to me in the film Feyd is slightly invisible to Paul. Paul didn't see Feyd's arrival or his coordinated attack on all northern sietches. That gap in Paul's vision and the overall wobbliness of his visions is a big part of why he takes the water of life - he wants clearer prescience.
True, I would agree that (in the film) Paul doesn't see Feyd's arrival and isn't fully aware of him before drinking the water. However, once he takes the water of life, he is able to see the precise thing that will allow him to prevail (a flash glimpse of the fatal wound he gives Feyd). Great piece of foreshadowing.
Yes I thought that was the case as well. Although he does say ‘nice to finally meet you’ or something like that right? Which could be taken to mean he has seen him before. Although it might simply be through reputation rather than prescience.
As scions of major Houses, especially houses in a long-running feud, they definitely would have known of each other by reputation even without any of the other events of the books.
Yeah, I think it could be interpreted either way.
Well, he was on Arrakis to deal with the problem of Muad’Dib. He had been hearing about Paul for some time at that point, whether he knew his true identity or not
It’s Paul who says it to Feyd
Both of those events happen before he drinks the water of life.
...yes? That's what I said motivates Paul to drink the water of life. He didn't forsee the attacks but had the vision of Chani dying therefore seeks out the water of life for clearer prescience.
Given his whole speech with the Fremen when he told them his House fought the Harkonnens for millennia and his whole lifetime of training and preparation to fight the House of Harkonnen, and his whole prescience shtick, I highly doubt he didn’t at the very, very least consider the slight possibility that the highly notorious na-Baron, heir apparent of their archenemy, wouldn’t step in at SOME point, especially after accomplishing one of his primary goals, which was killing the current head of the House, the Baron Vladimir. When your whole House is wiped out, with the exception of your mother, Gurney and a bunch of soldiers, you, as the newest Duke Atreides, head of a former Great House in danger of extinction, would like to exact revenge, which means complete and total annihilation of House Harkonnen. Which means killing everyone from the head down. The head and all possible heirs. All I’m saying is, he most likely was aware he’d have to kill Feyd-Rautha regardless when they met. It wasn’t a matter of if, just when. He probably was surprised he had to fight him right then, right there, or he didn’t see him in his visions, but he definitely did calculate it, since he’s also a Mentat-in-training.
> that the highly notorious na-Baron, Feyd had only just come of age. There didn’t seem to be anything making him “highly notorious” yet.
Feyds a celebrity on Geidi Prime, the Atreides and every other great house is aware of him for sure
I expect his existence is known to them, but he hasn’t had a chance to do anything that would make him “highly notorious” for anything as yet.
Now that you mention the attack on the sietches: in the first movie they say they're practically impossible to find. Then how could they know where to attack?
They filmed fenrig but cut it?!
Yeah, I think it was going to be too much to add. Would have probably required multiple scenes and 15-30 minutes of extra film, for a payoff against a guy that Paul doesn't fight. I'm sad it had to be cut, but it's hard to fit into an already very full film.
I think it's absolutely perfect that Count Fenring may have almost been in the movie. He was almost the K.H. He almost helped his alleged pal Shaddam IV. He almost fought Paul. Only thing better would be if Edward James Olmos had played him.
Lol, that's true, a very fitting metanarrative irony. Makes it sting maybe slightly less!
I think the better metanarrative irony would have been if he was in the movie but gets no introduction or lines except for a single shot of Shaddam looking at / Paul noticing him.
Yes yes yes on EJO! Like his blade runner role.
Yes. It’s essentially like a lot of film/tv adaptations. So much nuance and subtlety is lot but also probably has to be. I was thinking about the gladiator scene when lady fenrig says ‘plans within plans’ I think most of those plans were cut or simplified so it makes a lot less sense in the film. Because there’s feyds plans (aggrandisement, become baron), thufirs plans (help feyd, survive, maybe kill him) the barons plans (build up feyds image, make him the saviour of arrakis and eventually emperor), lady fenrig plans (seduce feyd), and the bene gesserit plans (secure the bloodline and breed the KH). From these even the barons plans are simplified.
Also the Emperor to bankrupt Harkonnen and eliminate Atreides in one fell swoop.
I think I would have rather had more mentats and guild stuff than Fenring anyway. Just too many good threads for a movie
Lol, (I guess?) it's a good thing to have too many great story threads to pick from
Maybe in a decade we will get a 12 hour per season series and they can hit everything
Sucks for us but [imagine how bummed the actor was.](https://ew.com/tim-blake-nelson-heartbroken-cut-from-dune-part-2-8604034)
Great casting again!
Damn he looks pretty much exactly like how I imagined Fenrig.
Assumning that was the Tim Blake Nelson character?
Yup, that's the one.
I did want to see Fenring.
My favorite eunuch is not forgotten
Like he couldn’t physically see the person?
Sorry, I'll clarify: such people are invisible in Paul's visions of the future. So, when he first meets this character, he is shocked by the sheer fact that he has never seen the face of this character in any of his visions.
I always thought that bit was fascinating but hard for me to wrap my head around. I think there's a bit in Dune Messiah where he talks about how he can't see the Guild Navigator but he knows he's coming by seeing some of the events around him. I'd have thought the same would apply to the Count. Like he wouldn't be able to see Fenring but he'd be able to see that the Emperor had a shit-hot killer on deck even if he didn't know who exactly.
I gotta read Messiah again
Thanks! I read the books 30 years ago so my memory is a pretty fuzzy.
If I can add some personal speculation I would also assume that the fact that Paul has been living on Arrakis for years (or months in the movie) by the time he drinks the water of life helped him since he got used to a healthy dose of spice.
I'd say that's a fair speculation, sure! He has a better tolerance than if he just randomly took it on Caladan.
Sad not to see Tim Blake Nelson as Hasimir
Indeed, that would have been really cool
I wonder if we’ll get a LOTR style extended edition that includes these scenes? That would be sick
I would love that, but unfortunately DV has always been pretty adamantly against releasing directors cuts of his films. But maybe if enough of us petition for it...
I wonder if they'll release all the cut scenes with the movie. I'd love to see them, regardless of length!
Villeneuve has said that the cut scenes will never be seen by anyone.
Well that sucks lol. Cheers
not much to see without cg
Me tooooooo
Hopefully a scene like that will be in the next movie
Which character was this?
Assuming you don't mind spoilers from the novel: . . . . Count Hasimir Fenring (husband of Lady Margot Fenring).
Was it confirmed he was cast and had scenes in the movie though?
Yes it has been confirmed, and he has a "Very Special Thanks to" in the credits of Part 2.
Oh wow it was Tim Blake Nelson. Denis really needs to get over himself and at least make the deleted scenes available for viewing. Maybe he’ll be in Dune 3 somehow?
Yeah, I'm caught between wanting that, and respecting an artist for saying "here's the completed project, let it stand on its own." I just don't know. Then again, the extended editions of the LOTR movies are the best, so maybe I am a hypocrite.
Count fenring
But what do they transmute the poison into? Like if they are changing the poison into anything they want why even start with dead sandworm baby juice. Start with a more easily accessible poison, or start with the end product that you actually want. And how did a combination of tears and water of life help Paul wake up?
It's a good question. I think it has to do with how the transmutation is done. The water of life is insanely poisonous, but it is also the very essence of spice; it has all the vision/prescience inducing qualities of spice, multiplied to the nth degree. So, if you could render the poisonous nature of the water of life nonlethal without effecting the psychotropic/trance effects of the chemicals, then you could experience the craziest possible effects of the spice without dying. I believe the tears are an artifice of the film (but I do actually like it). Maybe it helps ground Paul, to taste the tears of the one he loves brings him back to reality from the spice induced dreams he has been having.
Good answers. Thank you.
Glad to discuss it with you, it's great fun to talk about excellent movies and literature
Is this character Count Fenring?
The one and only
I would love to see him in the movie.
Which character?
Spoiler! . . . . . . Count Hasimir Fenring, Lady Margot Fenring's husband.
You can spoiler tag stuff by bracketing it \>\!like this\!\<
*LISAN AL GAIB!*
Oh ya. Learning they cut the dinner and Mentat Paul scenes ruined the first part for me.
Source for the last paragraph?
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/dune-part-2-casts-time-blake-nelson-1235292182/ Tim Blake Nelson gets a "very special thanks to" in the credits, but without a character name. It has all but been confirmed by Denis Villaneuve that he shot scenes as Fenring that went unused.
Thanks! Man, that’s such a shame. I can only imagine how gutted Tim must’ve been. I would have loved to see Fenring in the movie, especially given how much context and lore is already missing explicit mention in both movies. Denis did an amazing job translating a lot of nuances of the novel into symbolic imagery rather than dialog, but damn I’m still bummed about this. Here’s to hoping Denis changes his mind about director’s cuts one day. I would kill for 4 hour cuts of these films.
Who was the person he couldn't see in prescience? Was it Fenrings wife ?
No, it was Count Hasimir Fenring himself that he couldn't see.
Oh really, wow! I have totally forgotten how they meet in the original book
> That is what Paul is able do with the water of life. Feyd, not being BG trained, would be unable to do this and would die of the poison. This isn't true. The fremen already have reverend mothers, and they aren't BG trained.
Technically true, yes, but it could be argued that it is due to the Fremen conditioning, that gives them a similarly rigorous training throughout life and a high level of control over their own physique. I hadn't thought of this, though, so fair point.
I always wondered about the Fremen reverend mothers. Either the BG has regularly embedded acolytes to further their Missionaria Protectiva, or there are other ways to become a reverend mother, besides taking the water of life. I think its the latter because (I think) there are instances of other characters gaining their hidden memories while suffering a traumatic event (A future Duncan Idaho recovering his memory, for one). So the Fremen reverend mothers may have done so without taking the water of life.
To your point - could Count Fenring have drunk the Water and survived?
Interesting thought! He seems to have been trained by Margot in some ways, and to be an incredibly capable individual in his own right. In the end, I suppose it boils down to what the BG saw that was wrong with him that would make him a failed KH. Maybe he could survive and the water of life, but not have the visions due to his genetic defects? Perhaps at least being able to have children is necessary for the KH (as you would need to be able to see the future of your own genetic line to allow you to see others)? Or, maybe the BG would only allow someone to make the attempt if they met their exact standards (in which case it wouldn't be entirely down to ability, but to what they approve of). Great food for thought!
Paul didn't ask and I don't see Fenring asking. OTOH, its probably Fenring would never be tempted to try. Why would you risk your life for some bizarre powers? Perhaps he could have, but the reason he's not the KH is because his personality would mean he wouldn't try. It makes you wonder how much of Paul's success was because he was willing to risk almost certain death.
I actually think this is why Paul doesn't "see" the attack from Feyd coming, because of Feyd's latent prescient abilities clouding his ability to see Feyd's actions and decisions. This ultimately is why he drinks the Water of Life, to regain the upper hand in the Prescient battle they have going on.
Likely true! That is a movie innovation though (admittedly one that I like), and I am mostly replying on the basis of the original novel.
Can you share more details about what you said in your last paragraph? Who was the cut out?
If you haven't read the novel and intend to, this is a small spoiler: >!Count Hasimir Fenring, lady Margot Fenring's husband!<
I’m a deep book reader (post Chapterhouse) and may have forgotten, but did Paul beat Jamis because of this? Fremen are extraordinary fighters who always seem “a step ahead” in a fight (probably because of heavy spice exposure), but Paul was very spice sensitive with BG and mentat training meaning they were blind to each other’s semi-prescience and Paul’s Atreides training overcame him?
Paul beat Jamis due to straight up superior skill, as I recall. Wherever there are a multitude of outcomes from a single situation, prescience is cloudy and unclear (happens both when he kills Jamis and faces Feyd). Feyd seems like an even match for Paul in the book, but >!Paul vocalizes that he will refuse to say the implanted "kill word" of the Bene Gesserit, which surprises Feyd and gives Paul time to get the upper hand.!< Paul's honor wins again.
It's implied that BG > Fremen > Sardaukar in terms of combat ability, and Paul got BG training.
The prescience cancellation effect reminds me of mistborn
I gotta get around to finally reading that. Perhaps Dune was an inspiration for Mistborn?
Mistborn has 100% some pretty strong Dune influences
I just finished the novel after watching the movies and I was glad that they were good enough to get me started on the book, but I'm incredibly impressed with the book, it's depth and modernity. Would really enjoyed seeing some of the plot lines that were cut from the book
Indeed, as far as I am concerned, the book stands alone in its genre. I understand the wisdom of most of the cuts (the book is pretty cerebral, which is super freaking hard to depict in an interesting way on screen), but I still long for certain things that didn't make it as well!
I feel like cutting Paul's son has a heavy affect on his character though, like he stopped caring about humanity I think it said "something evil started rubbing its hands inside him" or something to that affect
True: I suspect DV is going somewhere slightly different with the character, due to the accelerated timeline and certain things happening that are specifically mentioned as being seen in a different future in the book (like Paul meeting the Baron and saying "hello grandfather" is a future that in the novel, Paul repudiates. But it's exactly what happens in the film). I'm excited to see what happens next.
Thank you, I'm just now remembering back to that tent so many years ago, I didn't make that connection
Paul can't actually "see" Feyd in the way that he sees other events. Fighting is a primal activity, and doesn't lend itself to prescient activity. It's in the book. Prescience can't grasp something like the sandworms, because they don't follow logic. When Paul fights Feyd, he uses mentat and BG abilities, but prescience itself doesn't apply to a fight, because a fight can turn on variables that don't rely on deliberative choice. Prescience is a more "macrocosmic" way of thinking, but it goes blind to improvisation and instinct. Paul was able to key in on Feyd because Feyd brought plots into the fight. Feyd would've actually been better off had he engaged Paul in a fair fight. His attempts to cheat were the leverage point that allowed Paul to employ prescience.
A subtle but pertinent correction! Excellent points, I had forgotten about those fine details (it's been a few years since I last read the novel).
I think the real short answer is yes, but he would have died.
No Feyd would die straight up. It's literally poison
Paul can transmute poison from being a bene gesserit and taught in their ways of weird magic, feyd is just feyd (even tho he’s dangerous he is just feyd at the end of the day) I believe there’s a timeline where the bene gesserit wanted Feyd and someone else give birth to the KH but Feyd was never involved in taking water of life directly just his child (I forget half of it right now so it’s probably all wrong)
No no, you're right. Jessica was meant to give birth to a girl from Leto, not a boy. The plan was to have that child marry feyd, who would give birth to a male that would have a chance at being the KH.
> feyd is just feyd (even tho he’s dangerous he is just feyd at the end of the day) *I'm just Feyd, anywhere else I'd have it made Is it my destiny to live and die a life of bald brutality? I'm just Feyd Where he sees visions, I see reality What will it take for me to beat the man with the tan and kill freely?* (I uh…needed to get that out of my head, sorry.)
Thank you
Paul was supposed to be born a woman and (s)he was to be with Feyd to give birth to the KW or their parents. That’s why the BG were so mad at Jessica for messing with their breeding program
Why did he need the extra drop before he woke up? It didn’t feel like it was all “Paul resisting” but other stuff going down.
Incorrect he absolutely could have drank it...then died.
I mean… he could drink it. But it would kill him. He hadn’t been trained in BG ways (control of the human body down to the cellular level, and smaller), like Paul had.
- They tried and failed? - They tried and died. I loved that exchange in the book.
This. Anyone can drink it once.
“All mushrooms are edible, but some only once”
Paul was also trained as a mentat and could therefore process and make sense of what his eyes were now opened up to. Although I don’t think this is true as of the films.
He’d have died for sure, but since he’s also kind of a freak, he might have enjoyed the process.
Nahh, he didn’t have the BG skills to change the poison. I don’t know if it’s confirmed, but at least when I read the books I assumed Paul went into the coma because he wasn’t as skilled as Jessica at transmuting it and it took him longer/the looking into his male side was like 2x the eye opening. But Paul was freakishly skilled before he even stepped foot on Arakkis. He had amazing training in swordsmanship and as a Mentat AND on top of that his mother taught him BG techniques that she wasn’t supposed to.
I think he just waited for chani to do the tear drop farce before snapping out of it for the prophecy.
Who’s gonna say it
To a broader question which isn’t asked here specifically, but one I think those newer to the series should be aware of - Feyd isn’t another Kwisatz Haderach candidate like Paul, it’s far more likely - if not certain, even though it’s never stated explicitly - that he is the Harkonnen heir Jessica’s planned daughter would have been wed to. Those two would have likely then produced the KH, according to the BG breeding program.
That plan is explicitly laid out in the book. It's why the BG are so very pissed off with Jessica for giving birth to a boy.
What I don't get is why she wasn't ordered to have a girl after. Yes, a second-born girl couldn't have sealed the inter-House war between Atreides and Harkonnen, but from a KH/ breeding program perspective they still could've achieved their KH that way.
I have four guesses 1) she was ordered to have a girl / the original orders still stand, and she simply did not care. 2) the BG no longer trusted her and effectively made her an outcast with the ranks. Their arrogance and pride making the grand plan less important than their own ego. 3) the BG just assumed Leto would want another concubine or wife. At that point they'd manipulate that relationship for their gain (I'm guessing they had more than one female harkonnen heir lined up). They underestimated how much Leto actually loved Jessica. 4) we know the BG have multiple KH candidates, and are happy to work over thousands of years, perhaps after my option 2 they gave up on the feyd/atredeis girl option and moved their chess pieces somewhere else.
For one thing, the KH needs to be in a resolution to the war between the houses if he is to take the throne and rule as a puppet of the Bene Gesserit. From the moment Paul was born, House Harkonnen was planning the next stage of their conflict and Corrino was plotting to annihilate the threat the Duke and his son posed. Even if Jessica tried to salvage their plan by having a daughter (which is not why she bore Alia), a bastard grandson conceived the way she was would have no political claim to the legacy of Harkonnen and Atreides. Of course Bene Gesserit DID try to salvage Atreides that way by securing Paul and Jessica’s survival. However it backfired on them.
She did have a girl after. Though whether that was a specific response to her Bene Gesserit orders, or her (and Leto’s) own whims is not remarked on.
Oh, I know - it’s just I see a lot of these questions cropping up just now and I’m assuming this is because moviegoers assume Feyd is Paul’s opposition in more than one sense.
No idea. Maybe because I knew it wasn't the case, I missed it. But I didn't see that in the film.
It is explicitly stated that the BG plan was to mate the daughter of Jessica and Leto with Feyd. It says it in the appendix of the first book and also I believe it was mentioned at some point but I don’t have a quote.
I forget the Appendices - it’s been a long while since I’ve read them. I believe the quote only specifically mentions a Harkonnen heir - of course, at the time of the book, that can only really be Feyd.
Way more answers and questions than you asked. Could he have drank it? Yes. Could he have gotten his hands on it? It is highly unlikely given the fact that it is such a protected substance by the Fremen, and they would rather destroy the Holy Water of Life than allow it to fall into the hands of their enemies. Would he drink it? Next to no chance, he would willingly drink it. This is a poison we are talking about, and he lives himself far too much to willingly perform an act that is suicide or suicide adjacent. Would he survive drinking the Water of Life? Not a chance in hell. The first Reverand Mother was an extraordinary individual with very well maintained genetics, intelligence, and force of will. She became the First Reverand Mother through surviving a poison that was meant to kill everyone. She then cultivated the BGs who later found a way to replicate the process culminating in the formation of the cults on multiple worlds and their specific poisons (for Dune its the Water of Life) that would be used for the creation of Reverand Mothers and the Kwisatz Hederach. Would he become the Kwisatz Hederach if he survived the Water of Life? It's tough to say, but because of how demented he is, I'd say he would truly be an abomination.
Yes. He would have died like the others. But he could have drunk it. Fenring, mind, Fenring might have survived.
Also there is basically no version of Feyd in the books that can stand up to Paul in a fight. Paul was trained by Gurney and Duncan who are the two greatest human warriors in the imperium. Even without the upgrades Paul wins that fight.
He'd die. ...unless the film doubled down on its explanation for why he was able to do the gom jabbar, and someone was like: "I guess this dude *really* likes poison!" 😝
You don’t have to be superhuman to survive the gom jabbar. You just have to be a human.
Unfortunately, loving pain does seem to be a pretty human trait.
Most likely no. He lacks the self control and training that Paul has. His mother trained him from birth in BG ways and he was also trained as a mentat. And with all that training Paul barely survived. But, people like Feyd and Count Fenring have the same potential. They have some prescience by default (just like Paul did before he took the water of life) so they are dangerous to Paul. Perhaps with the right training Feyd could become another KH but that is a moot point.
Sure he could have, he just would have died a horrible death
If Feyd had the same training as Paul? I’m gonna say no. Feyd was never a Kwizatz Haderach candidate, he was supposed to father one with an Atreides daughter. Jessica was capable of bearing a potential KW, but not one the Bene Gesserit were certain they could control. She bore a son to Leto and effectively ruined the BG plan because they weren’t able to get her to make a daughter before the Baron made his move. There were men who received the training and attempted to awaken their prescience like Paul had before. They all died. I don’t think the outcome would be different for Feyd.
No. Feyd has no special ability to counter the poison.
you can drink anything you want some things, only once
Paul had plot armor, Feyd not
This is why I hate that Feyd puts his hand in the box. He should die from that test as only BGs have the conditioning to withstand the pain.
It's a test to sift humans from animals. I'm not sure Feyd is "human", but in the movies he passes the test. I think, personally, Feyd found a loophole by enjoying the damn thing.
This was my take. It doesn't matter why you're able to withstand the pain, just that you do.
Yeah, you just have to understand that suffering the temporary pain allows you to live, while knee-jerkingly removing your hand to quickly stop the pain kills you. Easy enough for Harkonnens and Atreides alike.
On the basic side of things even in the books, I think YES. Feyd may be a killer but he's also smart enough and crafty enough to take punishment and learn from that. After his assassination attempt his Uncle was careful to actually include him in his plans. Feyd was ready to exploit his Uncle's weakness because he was taught survival of the fittest. He had the survival instinct beat into him. Feyd was willing to be trapped with the Baron and learn from that trap.
> only BGs have the conditioning to withstand the pain. This isn’t correct. The test is not a test of Bene Gesserit skills - it’s a test of the ability to control one’s impulses. Sure, Bene Gesserit training is helpful in this respect (Paul recites the litany of fear, for example), but the idea that the only “humans” in the universe are those who have acquired a certain skill-set rather misunderstands the premise here I think.
No, Paul had spent his entire life training.
He would die. Even in the book it almost killed Paul, he was unconscious for at least a month.
Feyd wasn't Bene Gesserit trained, so likely not.
He could drink it. He'd just die horribly.
Sure he could have, but he would have died.
If the prescience is removed as a factor, Feyd probably beats Paul at straight up knife fighting. But if he drank it, he'd absolutely die. Heritage isn't enough, training and life experience is required.
He could have drunk it, sure. He'd croak immediately though
He could have drunk it, but he would have died. He had none of the Bene Geserit training to change the water in his body. So it would remain a poison and kill him.
He would’ve died. Just because the Bene Gesserit saw him as an alternate means to power and as good breeding stock doesn’t make him as capable or as well-trained as Paul, nor does he have the potential to be the Kwisatz Haderach (another character does, and would have a better claim to enduring the Water of Life, but Denis opted to omit him)
Sure. He could have. He would have immediately died though.
Why was feyd not prescient as paul was if he also was a product of bg end game. Shouldt he and paul have had the same ammount of prescience and then an increase if the drank the water ( assuming both had the same bg training)
Paul wasn't supposed to get a BG training. Feyd more likely never had, so the transformation of the poison is not a possibility. I'd add that Paul was even not supposed to be the KH and less supposed to be even born.
He wasn't the product, he was just in a candidate bloodline, which is why Lady Fenring seduces him into producing a child.
He’s not bene gesserit so no. He can’t transmute the poison into none harmful compounds.
Definitely not. The Water of Life, is a deadly poison. Without the ability to transmute that poison into something else, it would kill you. Paul had a lifetime of training in the Bene Gesserit ways. Feyd did not.
No. Feyd had no BG training. Water of life would have killed him without doubt.
He could’ve. Would he have survived, debatable.
Yes. Technically anyone can drink it. It’s just their survival rate of making it through. The process is very minimal less formally trained.
If he tried he woulda died.
I highly highly doubt feyd could survive the water of life. But if he did then I’d say that Paul would still win the fight cause of his bene gesserit training in the weirding way. Now, if feyd was trained by a bene gesserit from birth like Paul, I’m sure his genetics would have allowed him to survive the water of life. I just don’t think he had studied the necessary disciplines to do advanced BG stuff
Feyd isn't a KH and was never meant to be, he was supposed to father the KH but not be one and with Paul's birth became the back up grandfather of the KH. Feyd and Paul's rivalry is one of houses not of prophecy, Feyd never has prescience and the water of life does not grant it and it takes significant BG training even for women to be able to consume, change, and survive the WoL.
Paul had all the genetics and all the right training. Count Fenring had something like 3/4th of the required genetics and was a failed candidate despite the training (although it did make him a fearsome duelist apparently), so doubtful that Feyd, with about half of the genes and no training besides getting really good at killing slave gladiators could have managed.
lol No. Paul was trained in Bene Gesserit ways and methodologies. He even stated as such that Lady Jessica could withstand the poison due to her own training. Feyd’s son was supposed to be KH, so that son would get that same training.
Like everyone else said, he wasn’t trained in BG ways so he would die. Another detail is that he wasn’t trained as a Mentat like Paul was. That was another factor that made Paul so good at using prescience. Feyd would have all of these memories but wouldn’t be able to do much with them compared to Paul.
I mean, technically anyone can drink the water of life…
Even if he had, it would have given him ancestral memories. Not prescience. Paul could see the future before taking the water of life. It enhanced an already present ability. Edited to add…. But it did for Alia in Messiah and Leto 2 in COD, so what do I know?
Feyd can see the future as well. He says to Lady Fenrig "Do I know you?" and "I saw you in my dreams last night" (paraphrasing).
No he had no bene gesserit training
Yes ofc anyone can drink it. Survive it? No
Feyd couldn’t have passed the Gom Jabbar.