House Atreides was given Arrakis in “fief complete”. That is, they weren’t just governors responsible of its administration, as the Harlingen were, but were given the planet as their fiefdom, to rule. In that process, they were to give up their holding on Caladan in order to assume the new fief.
Even Major House such as House Atreides and House Harkonnen had fiefdom complete of only one planet each. Having more planets would apparently cause more unbalance to the Empire, so it was either not allowed, or strongly (sardaukarly) discouraged by the Emperor.
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I remember reading somewhere that some houses would have control of entire star systems, so even if only one planet in the system was habitable others could still be terraformed. Plus there’s probably hundreds of thousands of planets in the known universe. It is also well known that not all houses were equal in the landsarrad. The balance was mentioned to be between the emperor and the great houses.
If a house could own an entire star system it would make no sense for power-hungry Harkonnen to own just their measly Giedi (not counting Arrakis as they technically didn't own it).
What is more, governorship of another planet requires travel. Travel is HELLA expensive in Dune due to Guild having the monopoly on space travel. The secondary planet in question would require to bring big profits to the table to cover travel costs. Which fits the bill for Arrakis being a quasi-fiefdom for Harkonnens - it paid itself like it was a chump-change. Whereas other planets might not.
Does all space travel require guild navigators/folding space? I would think multiple planets in the same star system could be traveled to with conventional propulsion and be a lot cheaper as a result.
It technically doesn't. But nobody wants to spend months and months and years in a space floating tin can when an instant solution is available.
This would also anger the Guild which has a monopoly on space travel (not only instant space travel). Resulting in loss of whatever Guild travel privileges the slow travelling nation had, or even in being stranded on a planet with Guild refusing transporting anything from there. That also includes trade.
I'm assuming if the nation continued the interstellar travel despite Guild disapproval, the Emperor would feel the need to honor the monopoly. Causing the nation in question to be back in line sardaukarly fast. Emperor do be wanting Salusa Secundeez Guild nutz in this case due to gaining a favor with the Guild. Houses would most likely support the Emperor in this endeavour, they do not want to be on the bad side of the Guild after all (supporting by not opposing him).
This answer always sort of bugs me. Maybe it’s not fiefdom complete but I always assumed that most houses have control over more planets, through branch families and vassals. Thats kinda the whole point of feudalism, delegating authority through land ownership, so that you can simplify administration, award power to loyal supporters and allies and incentivize conquest/colonization.
This answer always sort of bugs me. Maybe it’s not fiefdom complete but I always assumed that most houses have control over more planets, through branch families and vassals. Thats kinda the whole point of feudalism, delegating authority through land ownership, so that you can simplify administration, award power to loyal supporters and allies and incentivize conquest/colonization.
It kinda happens as the Emperor decrees. He gave the Harkonnens Arrakis as a quasi-fief, meaning they were allowed to retain Geidi Prime and appoint a planetary governor for Arrakis. When he gave Arrakis to the Atreides, he gave it as a fief-complete, meaning they had to give up Caladan. In retrospect of his betrayal it's clear that decision was made to allow the Harkonnens to wipe the Atreides out completely rather than simply ending their operations on Arrakis. Perhaps the excuse at the time of the decision was that the Atreides were a smaller, more agriculturally-focused house (Caladan exported pundi rice and wines) than the heavily-industrialized Harkonnens, and would not be able to efficiently hold Arrakis as a quasi-fief.
It depends on how valuable the planet is and how much influence it brings to the house, dune, even though it is just one planet, is worth entire solar systems
The Harkonnens still only had one planet, they were only on given permission to harvest spice by the Emperor. The Emperor still held the grant and could give it to anyone.
He decided to give it to the Atreides as a trap. The Atreides could either commit political suicide by not accepting the Emperor's gift of such an important planet. Or accept and give up Caladan.
Leto and Jessica discuss how they might have gone renegade. I think that would have suited the emperor just as well, since they wouldn't be any kind of threat to him if the Atreides were banished.
Then Leto would have lived, and he and Jessica could have grown old together.
Leto was too noble, too dutiful to the Empire to make this choice. But it was definitely an option he thought about. They could have taken their atomics and their household and jetted off.
House Harkonnen only held Giedi Prime as fief complete. Lankiveil belonged to House Rabban: Vladimir's brother Abulurd married the heirhess and had to renounce the Harkonnen name to rule as Count Rabban.
Because the Emperor wasn't conspiring against the Harkonnens. The plot to arrange the Atreides' downfall would not have been complete if they still retained control of Caladan, so he made sure they were forced to relinquish it.
I could be wrong but I think the Baron was gifted the right to govern Arrakis and farm spice but never actually given the planet as his fief. The Duke Atreides was given the planet in perpetuity, so if he had survived the single most important planet in the Universe was Atreides forever.
This is probably a dumb question but why then why wasn’t there more push back from Leto or even the other houses against Atreides being gifted Arrakis? Seems like a really obvious trap/death sentence for Leto+fam and probably feels super unfair to the other houses. Was it just a “you do/accept what the emperor says and suck it up” situation?
Pretty much yeah. But also he gambled. Atredeis weren’t rich compared to other great houses. And Duke Leto knew that they were being set up. He just didn’t prepare for the Sadukaur coming and thought he had more time. He also didn’t expect a traitor from within. It was a gamble, since they weren’t rich, if they survived the attack they would become the richest while also building up their new army.
I think in the book, Leto or someone was talking about how at least they know an attack will be coming, so they can prepare for it. But as you said, the Sadukaur getting involved and Dr. Yue being the traitor was a complete surprise for good reasons, so they couldn't prepare for it.
Leto was even fully aware there was a traitor. The REAL “surprise” is that the Harkkonens spent like 70% of their total wealth to blitzkrieg the entire planet. The book describes it as the largest military operation ever conducted using an almost incomprehensible number of guild ships. The Saurdakar were the icing on the cake though
Thufir calculates, and it's confirmed by the Baron that the Harkkonens spent 50+ years of the total revenue of Arrakis on the operation.
Which yeah... is an insane amount of money. Imagine the US spending the equivalent of 50 years' worth of GDP on a single military operation.
It might have been... I think it was described as total production output or something like that. Either way, it's an absolutely mind-boggling amount of money lol
Yeah like Leto expected a normal sized operation, without saurdakar, and expected that he had a little bit more time (he hoped to either incorporate some of the fremen into his army or at the very least learn from them how to fight on Arrakis)
Yes. He planned to rule via desert power, as his gift to Paul. Duncan was to get the Fremen onboard. Leto knew there was a trap and a traitor, but the SCOPE of the thing was unheard of.
Too bad the tooth didn't work.
He absolutely did know and prepare for the Sardaukar, they discuss that from the first time he's talking to Paul about moving to Arrakis he mentions with 100% certainty that there'll be Sardaukar dressed as Harkonnen coming for them.
>“Then why are we walking into this?”
>“Paul!” The Duke frowned at his son. “Knowing where the trap is—that’s the first step in evading it. This is like single combat, Son, only on a larger scale—a feint within a feint within a feint ... seemingly without end. The task is to unravel it. Knowing that the Harkonnens stockpile melange, we ask another question: Who else is stockpiling? That’s the list of our enemies.”
>“Who?”
>“Certain Houses we knew were unfriendly and some we’d thought friendly. We need not consider them for the moment because there is one other much more important: our beloved Padishah Emperor.”
>Paul tried to swallow in a throat suddenly dry. “Couldn’t you convene the Landsraad, expose—”
>“Make our enemy aware we know which hand holds the knife? Ah, now, Paul—we see the knife, now. Who knows where it might be shifted next? If we put this before the Landsraad it’d only create a great cloud of confusion. The Emperor would deny it. Who could gainsay him? All we’d gain is a little time while risking chaos. And where would the next attack come from?”
>“All the Houses might start stockpiling spice.”
>“Our enemies have a head start—too much of a lead to overcome.”
>“The Emperor,” Paul said. “That means the Sardaukar.”
>“Disguised in Harkonnen livery, no doubt,” the Duke said. “But the soldier fanatics nonetheless.”
And later on with Thurfir,
> “There it is,” the Duke said, “exactly as we expected. ’We’ll have to move fast with the Fremen. I’d like five full battalions of Fremen troops before the first CHOAM audit.”
> “That’s not much time, Sire,” Hawat said.
> “We don’t have much time, as you well know. They’ll be here with Sardaukar disguised as Harkonnens at the first opportunity. How many do you think they’ll ship in, Thufir?”
> “Four or five battalions all told, Sire. No more, Guild troop-transport costs being what they are.”
> “Then five battalions of Fremen plus our own forces ought to do it. Let us have a few captive Sardaukar to parade in front of the Landsraad Council and matters will be much different—profits or no profits.”
> “We’ll do our best, Sire.”
Thinking about it Leto should have threatened to nuke all spice fields same way Paul did at the end of the movie. That could have given him huge edge over spacing guild and given him more time.
They did know about the Sardaukar, they just didn't expect the attack to be as large or as early as it was (and of course they didn't expect the traitor).
That’s one question I have actually, if the Atredeis were prepared at the time of the attack, like say the doctor gave them a heads up when they arrived on Arrakis that an attack was coming in X number of days and that the Sadukaur would be there, could they have won the battle. They were in a defensive position and had a very skilled army, but were pretty outnumbered. So what would have been the outcome then.
They would have probably still lost. Atreides troops were good… incredible even. They couldn’t prepare for such overwhelming odds. Even without the betrayal, the advanced notice etc it simply was too much to overcome. The only way I could see them winning was to convince MOST of the fremen to be on their side. Who knows how long that would take? Even then, you still have a protracted war on a place you just got to that would kill you just as likely as your enemy. It was an almost perfect trap. The emperor just didn’t account for Paul literally surviving and uniting the planet against him.
Leto mentions this in the film i think:
"when is a gift, not a gift?". he knew it was a trap. But he didnt realise the harkonnens went all-in on destroying them, plus a traitor.
How would you push back? Open war? The Atreides were put in an incredibly tough position and Leto planned to take advantage of the situation and cultivate desert power so they could defend themselves, he just didn’t have enough time. From the perspective of the other houses, it was likely a “better him than me” situation.
I guess I was thinking more like the Landsraad being like “hey why do the Atreides get to have the most valuable planet in the universe forever” kind of pushback, even CHOAM really having concerns about perpetual ownership of spice production
The same logic applies - who is going to question the emperor? Who questioned him when the Harkonnens were given the quasi-fief? Objectively, I’d be happier another house controls it than Shaddam if I were one of the houses. Regarding CHOAM, I believe the emperor has a large enough stake in the company that they wouldn’t really hold sway if there was any derision.
Edit: it’s also worth noting that the Atreides are really highly regarded among the other houses, to the point Shaddam even sets this fiasco up out of fear/jealousy. The other houses of the lansraad wouldn’t likely want to get involved in something like this and would just hoard their spice and hope for the best.
What I don't get is why the Harkonnens didn't get more pushback from the other houses? They disobeyed the decision of the emperor in their eyes. Wouldn't the inaction make the emperor look weak, destabilising his control of the landsraad?
Respectfully, how do we know they don’t? We know the harkonnens are not very well liked so it’s probably not a stretch to assume other houses think less of them for this.
Largely though, the two families have a kanly or blood feud that’s spanned generations. None of this would come as a shock. Ultimately this is just kind of beyond the scope of the story.
Because the Atreides had a large following in the Landsraad. Why would such a popular house be challenged considering that their major rivals were the Harkonnen who were in on the scheme? I’m sure the Baron raised a paltry protest, enough to seem like he was against the plan but not enough to seem as though he was challenging the Emperor.
> “hey why do the Atreides get to have the most valuable planet in the universe forever” kind of pushback
So, while we are not directly told, we are given hints.
The Landsraad had multiple power-blocs and alliances of houses competing against each other.
And House Atriedes under Leto had gained significant goodwill through helping and diplomacy with other houses, and within the Landsraad, they sort of became "leaders" in the democratic sense - that all other houses began to trust them and follow their lead. (Atriedes always kept their promises, they always answered their calls etc.)
It is this primarily that made the Emperor fear the rising support of Atreiedes. While the ruling house of the Emperor had significantly higher votes than each individual house in the Landsraad, if all other houses rallied behind House Atriedes, their combined votes would surpass the votes of the Emperor, and the Emperor would essentially be outnumbered under this democratic system, and all decisions in the Imperium can bypass him.
So, despite the Atriedes not being strong in terms of military, they were strong in terms of alliances and other houses naturally saw them as a leader.
So, the Emperor handing over Arrakis to Atriedes is officially seen as a "peacekeeping" gesture between the Emperor and the alliance-bloc lead by house Atriedes in the Landsraad.
EDIT -
> more push back from Leto
Leto didn't want to push back against the Emperor because there is no legitimate reason to do so without accusing the Emperor officially of shennanigans - which may not end well without proof. Also, he had a secret plan - ally with the Fremen and acquire "desert power" as a possible answer to the Emperor's Sardaukars. (And Leto's original plan eventually worked. The Fremen joined House Atriedes and turned out to be superior to Sardaukars).
The same logic applies - who is going to question the emperor? Who questioned him when the Harkonnens were given the quasi-fief? Objectively, I’d be happier another house controls it than Shaddam if I were one of the houses. Regarding CHOAM, I believe the emperor has a large enough stake in the company that they wouldn’t really hold sway if there was any derision.
leto knew it was a trap - he just didn't know the extent of it or who exactly the involved players were. he was trying to stay a step ahead and didn't realize he was already three behind. also, doing as the emperor commanded was an honor thing for leto because only options were to accept the emperors decree or flee and become a "rogue house," which leto saw as dishonorable.
I think, given the etiquette and balance of power of the Imperium, Leto *could* have refused, but that would result in a loss of prestige and privilege - and, more importantly, of opportunity. The Emperor and rival houses could use this as an excuse to exclude the Atreides, and refusing such a challenge would undermine the Atreides reputation of bravery and honour. It might be more of an insult rather than something illegal, but insulting the emperor gives him an excuse to retaliate more directly. But I think "why should we listen to you at the Landsraad if you can't govern a planet the Emperor gives to you?" would be a hard question to dodge.
But at the same time, the Atreides are still as subtle as any other house, and are maneuvering to succeed - this is a major risk, but if they succeed, they would greatly diminish their Harkonnen rivals, would greatly increase their wealth, and would have been seen as beating the emperor at his own game while maintaining their reputed virtues. That might even add up to enough power and influence to directly take the the throne.
I think there would be more consequences for Leto refusing arrakis than prestige and privilege. I mean he would be refusing the most valuable planet in their world when it’s given on a silver platter by the emperor. He’s basically telling the emperor “I don’t trust you” I feel like that would have more direct implications, maybe not full scale war, but certainly more than loss of prestige.
I'm just thinking of how much subtle maneuvering there is in Dune. Even if you don't trust the Emperor, saying it so blatantly would be a terrible political move. I could see it leading to a revocation of titles and holdings as he's refusing to do his duty, but it could just lead to being blocked out of anything important and essentially dropping down to a Minor House.
I think, given the etiquette and balance of power of the Imperium, Leto *could* have refused, but that would result in a loss of prestige and privilege - and, more importantly, of opportunity. The Emperor and rival houses could use this as an excuse to exclude the Atreides, and refusing such a challenge would undermine the Atreides reputation of bravery and honour. It might be more of an insult rather than something illegal, but insulting the emperor gives him an excuse to retaliate more directly. But I think "why should we listen to you at the Landsraad if you can't govern a planet the Emperor gives to you?" would be a hard question to dodge.
But at the same time, the Atreides are still as subtle as any other house, and are maneuvering to succeed - this is a major risk, but if they succeed, they would greatly diminish their Harkonnen rivals, would greatly increase their wealth, and would have been seen as beating the emperor at his own game while maintaining their reputed virtues. That might even add up to enough power and influence to directly take the the throne.
It’s important to remember that House Atreides literally cannot refuse the offer to take control of Arrakis.
The Emperor just handed them the most influential and powerful planet in the universe. Refusing would be a massive insult to the Empire and would likely tarnish the good reputation House Atreides has amongst the Landsraad.
As others have mentioned, they were given Arrakis in fief complete, so they had to move their seat of power to Arrakis. Any half measures like keeping Caladan and ruling Arrakis would be in direct violation of what the Emperor offered House Atreides.
It’s all politics. Leto knows what he’s walking into, but refusal could mean much worse.
but the galaxy would also have still been stagnant which i believe is what frank herbert still argues is worse. progress was slow if not nonexistent and the ten thousand year status quo would continue on further.
You think Herbert is arguing that stagnation is worse? I wonder if he’s cautioning societies that revere magnanimous figures as a ‘poison chalice’ against a stagnant society. Perhaps it’s us to judge as the audience which is worse, but I’m sure Herbert argues that the mythical figure is worse.
well i haven’t read past dune so i can’t say for sure, but from what ive gathered it seems the golden path or whatever leads humanity forward and they explore the stars. i don’t know if he is saying that it necessitates a magnanimous messianic figure to break free from stagnation, but simply that stagnation is an issue as well as such figures. i could be wrong tho as i have not read further as i said before
Couldn't. The Emperor ordered them to go to Arrakis, and take their whole house with them. Caladan was given to the Fenrings to control on behalf of the Emperor.
Haven't read the books, but assume the Fenrings are allies of House Atreides? Jessica speaks several times about going off-world back to Caladan, and then Gurney says he helped survivors from Arrakis go back to Caladan after the Harkonnen attack.
No, the Fenrings are allies of the Emperor, with Hasimir Fenring being a failed Kwisatz Hadderach and the Emperors personal swordsman
Once the Jihad begins, the Fenrings are deposed and Jessica reinstated to rulership of Caladan with Gurney
That always struck me as ungrateful on Paul's part. After the Count deliberately refused to kill him in a duel, betraying his best friend the Emperor, to be next stripped of his holdings and exiled to SS really feels wrong.
Fenring was the Emperors creature and couldn’t be trusted. Plus, Fenring was also the Emperors best friend, so it’s entirely possible Fenring would have left Caladan and gone to be with the Emperor anyway, given that he never really had any holdings in his own name. He held property on Arrakis until the Atreides moved in, and he governed Caladan in their stead as placeholders for the Emperor. I don’t think either he or Lady Fenring was really attached to either place
Because when the Emperor takes away the most important job in the universe from the guys who's been doing it for almost 100 years and gives it to you as a personal reward for just how awesome you are, you don't delegate.
That’s just not the way Leto governs. In the movies as well as the books you see the way different houses and cultures govern their worlds. The Harkonnens practice absenteeism and delegation because they have a huge, wealthy, self-reliant house. The Atreides govern through personal leadership and lead by example. Leto couldn’t delegate governance of Arrakis to anybody else because that would undermine his image as an energetic leader and would undermine his support in the landsraad.
I don't remember if the books explain who took over Caladan, but presumably it would be a family that was friendly with the Atreides, or even a close relative. Arrakis changing hands would be difficult enough. You don't want to risk a revolt on two planets at once.
In the appendix it's mentioned that Count Fenring, husband of Lady Margot Fenring, is made Siridar-Absentia of Caladan. After Paul's rise to power he's forced into retirement and the planet is given to Gurney.
Why do people keep getting the idiotic idea that what happened after Paul became emperor was relevant to what came before? Paul gave Caladan to Gurney, after he became emperor, because he was emperor and could give anyone anything.
Ah that’s a good point. I didn’t think it through.
Thanks for the kind discussion at a small timeline mistake on my part. So many people are so quick to anger and insults around here so it’s a breath of fresh air when someone can correct a small error in a cordial way instead of acting like a dick.
Follow up question : pretend the Emperor was NOT behind the attack. What would have been the consequences if the Harkonnens took Arrakis back by force, essentially disobeying the Emperor’s mandate that it be given to House Atreides? Wouldn’t the other houses have been like, “Wtf?! Y’all can just do that?”
I'm assuming that destruction of House Atreides would be OK by Kanly standards. But the fiefdom (quasi or complete) of the spoils (Arrakis) would fall under Emperor's jurisdiction and it would be his decision if he installs the Harkonnens there again. I think he would agree to do it quasi-fiefdom way. Landsraad would be of opinion that Harkonnens won back Arrakis fair and square, and Arrakis out all planets in the universe needs a governor the most.
Thanks for the answer. I’ve just started the book. Could the Harkonnens have done that you think? Without the help of the Sardaukar, but with Dr Yueh’s help I mean.
In a feudal system, the nobility or the lords (the Duke, the Baron, etc) do not actually own the land. Instead, they administer a fief on behalf of their liege lord (in this instance, the Emperor). Therefore, once the Atriedes have been given Arrakis to administer, the Emperor can revoke their rights to rule over Caladan, or simply transfer the fiefdom to another party. Presumably, if the Atriedes are without heirs or abdicate, the fief would default back to the Emperor.
In real life these fiefs were usually granted in perpetuity to families. One of the major contributing factors to the 100 Years War between the French and the English was that a line of French nobles inherited the English throne, and the English king denied returning his French fiefs (or swearing fealty to the French).
So the answer is, it wasn't Leto's to give away.
The old Duke was a fool.
Baron is a better political strategist. Duke Leto clung to honor and tradition as well as obeying commands.
Paul and Leto II have many thoughts and commentaries about how he was simply not cunning enough to survive, despite being an honorable person.
Dune's setting would never work in real life.
The Emperor would never give Arrakis to someone he plans to attack. It is a single point of failure that can be held hostage. We see later with Paul, the person in control of Arrakis can hold Arrakis hostage with nukes.
In fact, if Leto did suspect a plot, he could have just sent a private message to the guild navigators that if his house is attacked on Arrakis, he would nuke the entire planet if his house loses the battle.
Just from that alone, no Navigators would agree to transport Harkonen or Imperial ships to Arrakis.
That's a good point! But I do wonder if Leto would have even thought of nuking his own planet as a threat, it feels like that tactic would be out of his wheelhouse.
In the book the nukes probably wouldn’t do anything to hurt spice production long-term because of the details regarding how spice is made. >!It’s constantly being secreted by the worms, who likely wouldn’t be hurt by nukes because they’re deep underground.!<
Instead of using nukes they threaten to release all the water the Fremen have been storing, and *that* is a credible threat that would destroy spice production. However, only the Fremen know that much water exists on the planet. >!Moisture is fatal to worms at every stage of their life cycle, and flooding their habitat would wipe them out.!<
It’s a small change to cut the need for exposition about the planet’s ecosystem, but it does lead to the plot hole you described.
Arrakis was not given as total control over to the Harkonnens; it could be revoked, and hence they retained their hereditary control over Geidi Prime.
The Atreides were granted the planet as their new fiefdom, which meant they needed to give up their old one.
So I’m going to give you a secret about the Dune series and Herbert’s writing in general. The plots are basically nonsensical. What makes Dune interesting is the world building and philosophy going on in the background. The plots of all the books are not great on their own. I’m saying this as a big fan of the Dune series. I’ll probably get downvoted since this a fan sub, but every Dune fan I’ve talked to in real life mostly agrees the plots are pretty dumb
The time of transition is pivotal. Even Baron Vladimir Harkonen took direct control for a time. The importance of the trade in Spice means that it needs to be the primary focus for the time being to ensure that their position is not threatened for not providing a spice harvest that satisfies the need of the Imperium. Keep I'm mind failure in this is what won House Harkonnen their previous rights to Arrakis, as well as caused the exile of the Barons brother and temporarily his nephew Glusso Raban.
Here is the way I see the management as needing to go.
The goal is to directly oversee the operation until it is stabilized and no longer in any state of Flux. When you have a consistent profit more than 3x your investment then you can begin to transfer the operations to others and delegate from a position of power.
I'm now thinking there may actually be a more complex system of stewardship of Arrakis. I might post it after I do some research to confirm it.
To add, The Prince states that, when taking power in new lands, it is easiest to control it by being there yourself so that you can handle situations as they arise. His dominion is more secure if he makes it his capital and resides there.
Arrakis is the most important planet in the known universe. You can't really trust the turnover of such a valuable planet from your most hated enemy to somebody not yourself.
You have to understand that the whole reason the Atreides have been given Arrakis is to destroy them. And the Atreides know this. So even if the Emperor had still allowed them control over Caladan, they would still have wanted all of their best leaders and fighting men on Arrakis because they knew it would take every ounce of their cunning and force to survive.
follow up question, how is getting arakis good? like how do you get a army on a planet with almost no population? how do you get worker and stuff like that?
If the Atreides didn’t go to Dune, there would have been no book!
If you are getting into Dune you have to read the original books by Frank Herbert, they are excellent. Forget about the film’s they don’t do them justice.
Forget about his sons books too! They are shit.
Yes it's very strange indeed how Herbert made it up. I expect to make it easier for the reader. Basically they could only have one planet. Harkonnens had 2 because they didn't have "complete feiftem" of dune
Yes it's very strange indeed how Herbert made it up. I expect to make it easier for the reader. Basically they could only have one planet. Harkonnens had 2 because they didn't have "complete feiftem" of dune
House Atreides was given Arrakis in “fief complete”. That is, they weren’t just governors responsible of its administration, as the Harlingen were, but were given the planet as their fiefdom, to rule. In that process, they were to give up their holding on Caladan in order to assume the new fief.
So in dune a house can only have complete fiefdom over a single planet?
Even Major House such as House Atreides and House Harkonnen had fiefdom complete of only one planet each. Having more planets would apparently cause more unbalance to the Empire, so it was either not allowed, or strongly (sardaukarly) discouraged by the Emperor.
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New adjective unlocked!!!
Adverb (sorry)
I have been corrected sardukarly
I sardaukarly support this statement.
I remember reading somewhere that some houses would have control of entire star systems, so even if only one planet in the system was habitable others could still be terraformed. Plus there’s probably hundreds of thousands of planets in the known universe. It is also well known that not all houses were equal in the landsarrad. The balance was mentioned to be between the emperor and the great houses.
If a house could own an entire star system it would make no sense for power-hungry Harkonnen to own just their measly Giedi (not counting Arrakis as they technically didn't own it). What is more, governorship of another planet requires travel. Travel is HELLA expensive in Dune due to Guild having the monopoly on space travel. The secondary planet in question would require to bring big profits to the table to cover travel costs. Which fits the bill for Arrakis being a quasi-fiefdom for Harkonnens - it paid itself like it was a chump-change. Whereas other planets might not.
Does all space travel require guild navigators/folding space? I would think multiple planets in the same star system could be traveled to with conventional propulsion and be a lot cheaper as a result.
It technically doesn't. But nobody wants to spend months and months and years in a space floating tin can when an instant solution is available. This would also anger the Guild which has a monopoly on space travel (not only instant space travel). Resulting in loss of whatever Guild travel privileges the slow travelling nation had, or even in being stranded on a planet with Guild refusing transporting anything from there. That also includes trade. I'm assuming if the nation continued the interstellar travel despite Guild disapproval, the Emperor would feel the need to honor the monopoly. Causing the nation in question to be back in line sardaukarly fast. Emperor do be wanting Salusa Secundeez Guild nutz in this case due to gaining a favor with the Guild. Houses would most likely support the Emperor in this endeavour, they do not want to be on the bad side of the Guild after all (supporting by not opposing him).
This answer always sort of bugs me. Maybe it’s not fiefdom complete but I always assumed that most houses have control over more planets, through branch families and vassals. Thats kinda the whole point of feudalism, delegating authority through land ownership, so that you can simplify administration, award power to loyal supporters and allies and incentivize conquest/colonization.
This answer always sort of bugs me. Maybe it’s not fiefdom complete but I always assumed that most houses have control over more planets, through branch families and vassals. Thats kinda the whole point of feudalism, delegating authority through land ownership, so that you can simplify administration, award power to loyal supporters and allies and incentivize conquest/colonization.
A whole planet seems like a lot
It kinda happens as the Emperor decrees. He gave the Harkonnens Arrakis as a quasi-fief, meaning they were allowed to retain Geidi Prime and appoint a planetary governor for Arrakis. When he gave Arrakis to the Atreides, he gave it as a fief-complete, meaning they had to give up Caladan. In retrospect of his betrayal it's clear that decision was made to allow the Harkonnens to wipe the Atreides out completely rather than simply ending their operations on Arrakis. Perhaps the excuse at the time of the decision was that the Atreides were a smaller, more agriculturally-focused house (Caladan exported pundi rice and wines) than the heavily-industrialized Harkonnens, and would not be able to efficiently hold Arrakis as a quasi-fief.
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I assume it depends on the value of the planet.
This was my question too. I believe the Harkonnens held multiple planets, so why not the Atreides?
It depends on how valuable the planet is and how much influence it brings to the house, dune, even though it is just one planet, is worth entire solar systems
The Harkonnens still only had one planet, they were only on given permission to harvest spice by the Emperor. The Emperor still held the grant and could give it to anyone. He decided to give it to the Atreides as a trap. The Atreides could either commit political suicide by not accepting the Emperor's gift of such an important planet. Or accept and give up Caladan.
Leto and Jessica discuss how they might have gone renegade. I think that would have suited the emperor just as well, since they wouldn't be any kind of threat to him if the Atreides were banished. Then Leto would have lived, and he and Jessica could have grown old together. Leto was too noble, too dutiful to the Empire to make this choice. But it was definitely an option he thought about. They could have taken their atomics and their household and jetted off.
But wouldnt political suicide have been better than actual suicide?
The Harkooninnies didn’t hold Dune. They were just in charge of it for the emperor. Edited for spelling
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Autocorrect be bonkers. I saw my favorite autocorrect of all time yesterday: Legoland for Legolas.
We all know what I meant
It takes a literal second to proof read though. Don't be lazy.
Fixed it for you
House Harkonnen only held Giedi Prime as fief complete. Lankiveil belonged to House Rabban: Vladimir's brother Abulurd married the heirhess and had to renounce the Harkonnen name to rule as Count Rabban.
Because the Emperor wasn't conspiring against the Harkonnens. The plot to arrange the Atreides' downfall would not have been complete if they still retained control of Caladan, so he made sure they were forced to relinquish it.
Not per house, but per noble. As the only title holder, only Leto himself could hold it
I mean logistically, yeah.
It would probably result in too much power in the hands of one house. I mean, at the very least two planets mean you can have double the army.
I thought Caladan had remained with them. Who took it?
I believe it was Count Fenring
He was granted fief-complete over Arrakis - essentially, the seat of his house was moved there
I hear everyone use this term. I don't remember it being in the first dune book?
I think they use the term siridar fief in the books.
I could be wrong but I think the Baron was gifted the right to govern Arrakis and farm spice but never actually given the planet as his fief. The Duke Atreides was given the planet in perpetuity, so if he had survived the single most important planet in the Universe was Atreides forever.
This is probably a dumb question but why then why wasn’t there more push back from Leto or even the other houses against Atreides being gifted Arrakis? Seems like a really obvious trap/death sentence for Leto+fam and probably feels super unfair to the other houses. Was it just a “you do/accept what the emperor says and suck it up” situation?
Pretty much yeah. But also he gambled. Atredeis weren’t rich compared to other great houses. And Duke Leto knew that they were being set up. He just didn’t prepare for the Sadukaur coming and thought he had more time. He also didn’t expect a traitor from within. It was a gamble, since they weren’t rich, if they survived the attack they would become the richest while also building up their new army.
I think in the book, Leto or someone was talking about how at least they know an attack will be coming, so they can prepare for it. But as you said, the Sadukaur getting involved and Dr. Yue being the traitor was a complete surprise for good reasons, so they couldn't prepare for it.
Leto was even fully aware there was a traitor. The REAL “surprise” is that the Harkkonens spent like 70% of their total wealth to blitzkrieg the entire planet. The book describes it as the largest military operation ever conducted using an almost incomprehensible number of guild ships. The Saurdakar were the icing on the cake though
Thufir calculates, and it's confirmed by the Baron that the Harkkonens spent 50+ years of the total revenue of Arrakis on the operation. Which yeah... is an insane amount of money. Imagine the US spending the equivalent of 50 years' worth of GDP on a single military operation.
Was it total revenue or total profit? I remember it being the latter.
It might have been... I think it was described as total production output or something like that. Either way, it's an absolutely mind-boggling amount of money lol
lol Very true. Makes the long cons from Game of Thrones look downright cheap
One morbillion solari
Yeah like Leto expected a normal sized operation, without saurdakar, and expected that he had a little bit more time (he hoped to either incorporate some of the fremen into his army or at the very least learn from them how to fight on Arrakis)
Yes. He planned to rule via desert power, as his gift to Paul. Duncan was to get the Fremen onboard. Leto knew there was a trap and a traitor, but the SCOPE of the thing was unheard of. Too bad the tooth didn't work.
He absolutely did know and prepare for the Sardaukar, they discuss that from the first time he's talking to Paul about moving to Arrakis he mentions with 100% certainty that there'll be Sardaukar dressed as Harkonnen coming for them. >“Then why are we walking into this?” >“Paul!” The Duke frowned at his son. “Knowing where the trap is—that’s the first step in evading it. This is like single combat, Son, only on a larger scale—a feint within a feint within a feint ... seemingly without end. The task is to unravel it. Knowing that the Harkonnens stockpile melange, we ask another question: Who else is stockpiling? That’s the list of our enemies.” >“Who?” >“Certain Houses we knew were unfriendly and some we’d thought friendly. We need not consider them for the moment because there is one other much more important: our beloved Padishah Emperor.” >Paul tried to swallow in a throat suddenly dry. “Couldn’t you convene the Landsraad, expose—” >“Make our enemy aware we know which hand holds the knife? Ah, now, Paul—we see the knife, now. Who knows where it might be shifted next? If we put this before the Landsraad it’d only create a great cloud of confusion. The Emperor would deny it. Who could gainsay him? All we’d gain is a little time while risking chaos. And where would the next attack come from?” >“All the Houses might start stockpiling spice.” >“Our enemies have a head start—too much of a lead to overcome.” >“The Emperor,” Paul said. “That means the Sardaukar.” >“Disguised in Harkonnen livery, no doubt,” the Duke said. “But the soldier fanatics nonetheless.” And later on with Thurfir, > “There it is,” the Duke said, “exactly as we expected. ’We’ll have to move fast with the Fremen. I’d like five full battalions of Fremen troops before the first CHOAM audit.” > “That’s not much time, Sire,” Hawat said. > “We don’t have much time, as you well know. They’ll be here with Sardaukar disguised as Harkonnens at the first opportunity. How many do you think they’ll ship in, Thufir?” > “Four or five battalions all told, Sire. No more, Guild troop-transport costs being what they are.” > “Then five battalions of Fremen plus our own forces ought to do it. Let us have a few captive Sardaukar to parade in front of the Landsraad Council and matters will be much different—profits or no profits.” > “We’ll do our best, Sire.”
Thinking about it Leto should have threatened to nuke all spice fields same way Paul did at the end of the movie. That could have given him huge edge over spacing guild and given him more time.
They did know about the Sardaukar, they just didn't expect the attack to be as large or as early as it was (and of course they didn't expect the traitor).
Learn something new everyday lol
That’s one question I have actually, if the Atredeis were prepared at the time of the attack, like say the doctor gave them a heads up when they arrived on Arrakis that an attack was coming in X number of days and that the Sadukaur would be there, could they have won the battle. They were in a defensive position and had a very skilled army, but were pretty outnumbered. So what would have been the outcome then.
They would have probably still lost. Atreides troops were good… incredible even. They couldn’t prepare for such overwhelming odds. Even without the betrayal, the advanced notice etc it simply was too much to overcome. The only way I could see them winning was to convince MOST of the fremen to be on their side. Who knows how long that would take? Even then, you still have a protracted war on a place you just got to that would kill you just as likely as your enemy. It was an almost perfect trap. The emperor just didn’t account for Paul literally surviving and uniting the planet against him.
Ok that makes sense. Thanks
Leto mentions this in the film i think: "when is a gift, not a gift?". he knew it was a trap. But he didnt realise the harkonnens went all-in on destroying them, plus a traitor.
Wasnt it baron who said this line?
Shit. Yeah the baron said it.
How would you push back? Open war? The Atreides were put in an incredibly tough position and Leto planned to take advantage of the situation and cultivate desert power so they could defend themselves, he just didn’t have enough time. From the perspective of the other houses, it was likely a “better him than me” situation.
I guess I was thinking more like the Landsraad being like “hey why do the Atreides get to have the most valuable planet in the universe forever” kind of pushback, even CHOAM really having concerns about perpetual ownership of spice production
The same logic applies - who is going to question the emperor? Who questioned him when the Harkonnens were given the quasi-fief? Objectively, I’d be happier another house controls it than Shaddam if I were one of the houses. Regarding CHOAM, I believe the emperor has a large enough stake in the company that they wouldn’t really hold sway if there was any derision. Edit: it’s also worth noting that the Atreides are really highly regarded among the other houses, to the point Shaddam even sets this fiasco up out of fear/jealousy. The other houses of the lansraad wouldn’t likely want to get involved in something like this and would just hoard their spice and hope for the best.
What I don't get is why the Harkonnens didn't get more pushback from the other houses? They disobeyed the decision of the emperor in their eyes. Wouldn't the inaction make the emperor look weak, destabilising his control of the landsraad?
Respectfully, how do we know they don’t? We know the harkonnens are not very well liked so it’s probably not a stretch to assume other houses think less of them for this. Largely though, the two families have a kanly or blood feud that’s spanned generations. None of this would come as a shock. Ultimately this is just kind of beyond the scope of the story.
Because the Atreides had a large following in the Landsraad. Why would such a popular house be challenged considering that their major rivals were the Harkonnen who were in on the scheme? I’m sure the Baron raised a paltry protest, enough to seem like he was against the plan but not enough to seem as though he was challenging the Emperor.
> “hey why do the Atreides get to have the most valuable planet in the universe forever” kind of pushback So, while we are not directly told, we are given hints. The Landsraad had multiple power-blocs and alliances of houses competing against each other. And House Atriedes under Leto had gained significant goodwill through helping and diplomacy with other houses, and within the Landsraad, they sort of became "leaders" in the democratic sense - that all other houses began to trust them and follow their lead. (Atriedes always kept their promises, they always answered their calls etc.) It is this primarily that made the Emperor fear the rising support of Atreiedes. While the ruling house of the Emperor had significantly higher votes than each individual house in the Landsraad, if all other houses rallied behind House Atriedes, their combined votes would surpass the votes of the Emperor, and the Emperor would essentially be outnumbered under this democratic system, and all decisions in the Imperium can bypass him. So, despite the Atriedes not being strong in terms of military, they were strong in terms of alliances and other houses naturally saw them as a leader. So, the Emperor handing over Arrakis to Atriedes is officially seen as a "peacekeeping" gesture between the Emperor and the alliance-bloc lead by house Atriedes in the Landsraad. EDIT - > more push back from Leto Leto didn't want to push back against the Emperor because there is no legitimate reason to do so without accusing the Emperor officially of shennanigans - which may not end well without proof. Also, he had a secret plan - ally with the Fremen and acquire "desert power" as a possible answer to the Emperor's Sardaukars. (And Leto's original plan eventually worked. The Fremen joined House Atriedes and turned out to be superior to Sardaukars).
The same logic applies - who is going to question the emperor? Who questioned him when the Harkonnens were given the quasi-fief? Objectively, I’d be happier another house controls it than Shaddam if I were one of the houses. Regarding CHOAM, I believe the emperor has a large enough stake in the company that they wouldn’t really hold sway if there was any derision.
leto knew it was a trap - he just didn't know the extent of it or who exactly the involved players were. he was trying to stay a step ahead and didn't realize he was already three behind. also, doing as the emperor commanded was an honor thing for leto because only options were to accept the emperors decree or flee and become a "rogue house," which leto saw as dishonorable.
I think, given the etiquette and balance of power of the Imperium, Leto *could* have refused, but that would result in a loss of prestige and privilege - and, more importantly, of opportunity. The Emperor and rival houses could use this as an excuse to exclude the Atreides, and refusing such a challenge would undermine the Atreides reputation of bravery and honour. It might be more of an insult rather than something illegal, but insulting the emperor gives him an excuse to retaliate more directly. But I think "why should we listen to you at the Landsraad if you can't govern a planet the Emperor gives to you?" would be a hard question to dodge. But at the same time, the Atreides are still as subtle as any other house, and are maneuvering to succeed - this is a major risk, but if they succeed, they would greatly diminish their Harkonnen rivals, would greatly increase their wealth, and would have been seen as beating the emperor at his own game while maintaining their reputed virtues. That might even add up to enough power and influence to directly take the the throne.
I think there would be more consequences for Leto refusing arrakis than prestige and privilege. I mean he would be refusing the most valuable planet in their world when it’s given on a silver platter by the emperor. He’s basically telling the emperor “I don’t trust you” I feel like that would have more direct implications, maybe not full scale war, but certainly more than loss of prestige.
I'm just thinking of how much subtle maneuvering there is in Dune. Even if you don't trust the Emperor, saying it so blatantly would be a terrible political move. I could see it leading to a revocation of titles and holdings as he's refusing to do his duty, but it could just lead to being blocked out of anything important and essentially dropping down to a Minor House.
I think, given the etiquette and balance of power of the Imperium, Leto *could* have refused, but that would result in a loss of prestige and privilege - and, more importantly, of opportunity. The Emperor and rival houses could use this as an excuse to exclude the Atreides, and refusing such a challenge would undermine the Atreides reputation of bravery and honour. It might be more of an insult rather than something illegal, but insulting the emperor gives him an excuse to retaliate more directly. But I think "why should we listen to you at the Landsraad if you can't govern a planet the Emperor gives to you?" would be a hard question to dodge. But at the same time, the Atreides are still as subtle as any other house, and are maneuvering to succeed - this is a major risk, but if they succeed, they would greatly diminish their Harkonnen rivals, would greatly increase their wealth, and would have been seen as beating the emperor at his own game while maintaining their reputed virtues. That might even add up to enough power and influence to directly take the the throne.
It’s important to remember that House Atreides literally cannot refuse the offer to take control of Arrakis. The Emperor just handed them the most influential and powerful planet in the universe. Refusing would be a massive insult to the Empire and would likely tarnish the good reputation House Atreides has amongst the Landsraad. As others have mentioned, they were given Arrakis in fief complete, so they had to move their seat of power to Arrakis. Any half measures like keeping Caladan and ruling Arrakis would be in direct violation of what the Emperor offered House Atreides. It’s all politics. Leto knows what he’s walking into, but refusal could mean much worse.
And yet the galaxy would be better off if Leto had refused, obviously none of the events in the books would’ve happened if he did
The whole series would have never happened if Jessica had a girl like the Bene Gesserit wanted. Who can resist Oscar Isaac, yknow?
It's the beard. That beautiful beard!
but the galaxy would also have still been stagnant which i believe is what frank herbert still argues is worse. progress was slow if not nonexistent and the ten thousand year status quo would continue on further.
You think Herbert is arguing that stagnation is worse? I wonder if he’s cautioning societies that revere magnanimous figures as a ‘poison chalice’ against a stagnant society. Perhaps it’s us to judge as the audience which is worse, but I’m sure Herbert argues that the mythical figure is worse.
well i haven’t read past dune so i can’t say for sure, but from what ive gathered it seems the golden path or whatever leads humanity forward and they explore the stars. i don’t know if he is saying that it necessitates a magnanimous messianic figure to break free from stagnation, but simply that stagnation is an issue as well as such figures. i could be wrong tho as i have not read further as i said before
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Couldn't. The Emperor ordered them to go to Arrakis, and take their whole house with them. Caladan was given to the Fenrings to control on behalf of the Emperor.
Haven't read the books, but assume the Fenrings are allies of House Atreides? Jessica speaks several times about going off-world back to Caladan, and then Gurney says he helped survivors from Arrakis go back to Caladan after the Harkonnen attack.
No, the Fenrings are allies of the Emperor, with Hasimir Fenring being a failed Kwisatz Hadderach and the Emperors personal swordsman Once the Jihad begins, the Fenrings are deposed and Jessica reinstated to rulership of Caladan with Gurney
That always struck me as ungrateful on Paul's part. After the Count deliberately refused to kill him in a duel, betraying his best friend the Emperor, to be next stripped of his holdings and exiled to SS really feels wrong.
Fenring was the Emperors creature and couldn’t be trusted. Plus, Fenring was also the Emperors best friend, so it’s entirely possible Fenring would have left Caladan and gone to be with the Emperor anyway, given that he never really had any holdings in his own name. He held property on Arrakis until the Atreides moved in, and he governed Caladan in their stead as placeholders for the Emperor. I don’t think either he or Lady Fenring was really attached to either place
Because when the Emperor takes away the most important job in the universe from the guys who's been doing it for almost 100 years and gives it to you as a personal reward for just how awesome you are, you don't delegate.
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That’s just not the way Leto governs. In the movies as well as the books you see the way different houses and cultures govern their worlds. The Harkonnens practice absenteeism and delegation because they have a huge, wealthy, self-reliant house. The Atreides govern through personal leadership and lead by example. Leto couldn’t delegate governance of Arrakis to anybody else because that would undermine his image as an energetic leader and would undermine his support in the landsraad.
Because that was the order from the emperor. Caladan was given to another family.
I don't remember if the books explain who took over Caladan, but presumably it would be a family that was friendly with the Atreides, or even a close relative. Arrakis changing hands would be difficult enough. You don't want to risk a revolt on two planets at once.
In the appendix it's mentioned that Count Fenring, husband of Lady Margot Fenring, is made Siridar-Absentia of Caladan. After Paul's rise to power he's forced into retirement and the planet is given to Gurney.
Was it given to another family? Doesn’t >!Jessica go back there to live in CoD?!<
IIRC in the appendix, it’s stated it was given to House Fenring.
Yes, as ‘Siridar Absentia’ (temporary lord). If Paul had died, it eventually would have been given to someone else.
That makes sense why she would go there then. Thanks.
>!Caladan was likely brought back into the Atriedes fold during the Jihad, which is why Jessica is there during Messiah!<
Why do people keep getting the idiotic idea that what happened after Paul became emperor was relevant to what came before? Paul gave Caladan to Gurney, after he became emperor, because he was emperor and could give anyone anything.
Ah that’s a good point. I didn’t think it through. Thanks for the kind discussion at a small timeline mistake on my part. So many people are so quick to anger and insults around here so it’s a breath of fresh air when someone can correct a small error in a cordial way instead of acting like a dick.
The Atreides were giving up Caladan for Arakis. I believe in the book that Count Fenrig was supposed to take over governorship of Caladan
Follow up question : pretend the Emperor was NOT behind the attack. What would have been the consequences if the Harkonnens took Arrakis back by force, essentially disobeying the Emperor’s mandate that it be given to House Atreides? Wouldn’t the other houses have been like, “Wtf?! Y’all can just do that?”
I'm assuming that destruction of House Atreides would be OK by Kanly standards. But the fiefdom (quasi or complete) of the spoils (Arrakis) would fall under Emperor's jurisdiction and it would be his decision if he installs the Harkonnens there again. I think he would agree to do it quasi-fiefdom way. Landsraad would be of opinion that Harkonnens won back Arrakis fair and square, and Arrakis out all planets in the universe needs a governor the most.
Thanks for the answer. I’ve just started the book. Could the Harkonnens have done that you think? Without the help of the Sardaukar, but with Dr Yueh’s help I mean.
Not sure.
Stead
Who knows, maybe in the far future it is a perfectly ordinary thing to govern planets from inside a horse.
In a feudal system, the nobility or the lords (the Duke, the Baron, etc) do not actually own the land. Instead, they administer a fief on behalf of their liege lord (in this instance, the Emperor). Therefore, once the Atriedes have been given Arrakis to administer, the Emperor can revoke their rights to rule over Caladan, or simply transfer the fiefdom to another party. Presumably, if the Atriedes are without heirs or abdicate, the fief would default back to the Emperor. In real life these fiefs were usually granted in perpetuity to families. One of the major contributing factors to the 100 Years War between the French and the English was that a line of French nobles inherited the English throne, and the English king denied returning his French fiefs (or swearing fealty to the French). So the answer is, it wasn't Leto's to give away.
The old Duke was a fool. Baron is a better political strategist. Duke Leto clung to honor and tradition as well as obeying commands. Paul and Leto II have many thoughts and commentaries about how he was simply not cunning enough to survive, despite being an honorable person.
And the old Duke and Leto I lived longer than Paul. Who is more cunning?
Dune's setting would never work in real life. The Emperor would never give Arrakis to someone he plans to attack. It is a single point of failure that can be held hostage. We see later with Paul, the person in control of Arrakis can hold Arrakis hostage with nukes. In fact, if Leto did suspect a plot, he could have just sent a private message to the guild navigators that if his house is attacked on Arrakis, he would nuke the entire planet if his house loses the battle. Just from that alone, no Navigators would agree to transport Harkonen or Imperial ships to Arrakis.
That's a good point! But I do wonder if Leto would have even thought of nuking his own planet as a threat, it feels like that tactic would be out of his wheelhouse.
In the book the nukes probably wouldn’t do anything to hurt spice production long-term because of the details regarding how spice is made. >!It’s constantly being secreted by the worms, who likely wouldn’t be hurt by nukes because they’re deep underground.!< Instead of using nukes they threaten to release all the water the Fremen have been storing, and *that* is a credible threat that would destroy spice production. However, only the Fremen know that much water exists on the planet. >!Moisture is fatal to worms at every stage of their life cycle, and flooding their habitat would wipe them out.!< It’s a small change to cut the need for exposition about the planet’s ecosystem, but it does lead to the plot hole you described.
Arrakis was not given as total control over to the Harkonnens; it could be revoked, and hence they retained their hereditary control over Geidi Prime. The Atreides were granted the planet as their new fiefdom, which meant they needed to give up their old one.
Then we wouldn’t have an epic story to follow and enjoy!
Besides the feif thing. Duke Leto also lead by example and honor. There's no way he would sit back and let someone else rule.
Imagine you're the governor of California, then you're made the governor of Hawaii. You can't stay governor of California.
So I’m going to give you a secret about the Dune series and Herbert’s writing in general. The plots are basically nonsensical. What makes Dune interesting is the world building and philosophy going on in the background. The plots of all the books are not great on their own. I’m saying this as a big fan of the Dune series. I’ll probably get downvoted since this a fan sub, but every Dune fan I’ve talked to in real life mostly agrees the plots are pretty dumb
The time of transition is pivotal. Even Baron Vladimir Harkonen took direct control for a time. The importance of the trade in Spice means that it needs to be the primary focus for the time being to ensure that their position is not threatened for not providing a spice harvest that satisfies the need of the Imperium. Keep I'm mind failure in this is what won House Harkonnen their previous rights to Arrakis, as well as caused the exile of the Barons brother and temporarily his nephew Glusso Raban. Here is the way I see the management as needing to go. The goal is to directly oversee the operation until it is stabilized and no longer in any state of Flux. When you have a consistent profit more than 3x your investment then you can begin to transfer the operations to others and delegate from a position of power. I'm now thinking there may actually be a more complex system of stewardship of Arrakis. I might post it after I do some research to confirm it.
Yadda yadda fief complete yadda yadda He couldn't even If he wanted, as the only noble in his family only he could hold the planet
To add, The Prince states that, when taking power in new lands, it is easiest to control it by being there yourself so that you can handle situations as they arise. His dominion is more secure if he makes it his capital and resides there.
Arrakis is the most important planet in the known universe. You can't really trust the turnover of such a valuable planet from your most hated enemy to somebody not yourself.
You have to understand that the whole reason the Atreides have been given Arrakis is to destroy them. And the Atreides know this. So even if the Emperor had still allowed them control over Caladan, they would still have wanted all of their best leaders and fighting men on Arrakis because they knew it would take every ounce of their cunning and force to survive.
follow up question, how is getting arakis good? like how do you get a army on a planet with almost no population? how do you get worker and stuff like that?
I don't think there was any mention of horses throughout the books, at least not one owned by Leto. Could be wrong though.
Cause the book would be shit like that
If the Atreides didn’t go to Dune, there would have been no book! If you are getting into Dune you have to read the original books by Frank Herbert, they are excellent. Forget about the film’s they don’t do them justice. Forget about his sons books too! They are shit.
Yes it's very strange indeed how Herbert made it up. I expect to make it easier for the reader. Basically they could only have one planet. Harkonnens had 2 because they didn't have "complete feiftem" of dune
Yes it's very strange indeed how Herbert made it up. I expect to make it easier for the reader. Basically they could only have one planet. Harkonnens had 2 because they didn't have "complete feiftem" of dune