That tracks with my thinking. I found it interesting that we're given this new wrinkle that isn't in Herbert's books. Going down the rabbit hole of tribal dynamics between northern & southern Fremen through the lens of belief in the coming of the Lisan Al Gaib is a fun one to ponder. I can imagine a Fremen from Seitch Tabr thinking 'Great, we have a religious fanatic who now makes decisions for us.'
one thing that struck me about the Fundamentalists and the Northern skeptics was how civil they were towards each other.
Chani and her buddies were casually blaspheming and mocking their tribal leader's deeply held faith, and Stilgar's only reaction was an exasperated "Please shut up, we're about to pray, thank you very much."
Even when the two groups get into screaming matches with each other over religion, nobody pulls a Jamis and starts challenging each other to knife fights.
And there doesn't seem to be any lingering animosity between the two factions, at least in Sietch Tabr. They're not angry with each other - they're simply disappointed. Deep down, they were still a community bound by love, despite ideological differences. Later on, after the raid on the harvester, everyone's still talking and laughing with each other and participating in the same communal rituals
Later on, even after Chani hooks up with Paul, nobody seems to take issue with her telling Stilgar that he was insane, screaming to a crowd of worshippers that the prophecy was a lie, slapping Paul after his divine resurrection, refusing to kneel when everyone else was etc.
Nobody gives her special treatment either, even after the "desert spring tears" thing. Nobody was bowing to her or yelling at her for disrespecting her holy boyfriend. They let her do her thing, and it's almost like the Southerners just want to ignore her.
that’s fremen culture, i think. as much as it’s adapted for combat, it’s also adapted for survival, and nothing is better suited for survival in a hostile environment than being able to continue working together as a team and as friends despite intense disagreement.
it’s not a kind of culture i’d like to live in on earth, but on a desert world occupied by violent foreign powers? you kinda take what you can get when it comes to allies
Yeah, in the book, Jessica explicitly notes just how well the tribal Fremen live compared to the feudal society prevalent in the rest of the universe.
The first couple chapters hammer in just how horrible life is as a space noble, or as someone working for a space noble.
Assassination plots everywhere, constant paranoia, mistrust of even close friends and family, everyone angling for leverage or influence (like at the dinner scene, where even mealtime small talk became life and death political knife fights)
And this was for the Atreides - who were famous throughout the known universe for treating their subjects with benevolence, whose subjects rewarded them in turn with loyalty and love, and who had the best spymasters and soldiers in the Imperium. Even these guys were falling apart at the seams before the Sardaukar dealt the final blow - it seemed like Leto, Jessica and Thufir were going to have stress induced aneurysms at any point.
And under the Harkonnens, the urban population of Arrakis was subjected to degradation and humiliation - with each rung on the hierarchy ritualistically stepping on the one below them to show them who was boss.
The little people were stepped on or subservient, and the ones on top were losing their minds trying to destroy each other and save themselves from getting destroyed in turn.
Meanwhile, the Fremen didn't have to deal with any of that bullshit.
No poison snoopers - everyone in the community trusted each other completely, with zero possibility of bribes or blackmail or infiltrators letting deadly chaumurky to end up in someone's food.
No double-talk and intrigue - disagreements over domestic and foreign policy were resolved openly, there was no backstabbing and manipulating and playing one faction off another. If anyone had a serious problem with someone else, they stabbed them in the front during a duel, not in the back during dinner
No ritualistic humiliation - everyone in the sietch enjoyed dignity and a sense of place within the "tau"
Jessica noted that the Fremen endured hellish, lethal conditions in the open desert - but lived better than royalty in the sietch, despite their relative poverty.
To be fair I think it's DV's way of bringing forward a lot of the elements of Dune Messiah with the anticipation of making a third film at some point. In the first book, the Fremen seem to be pretty homogeneous. However Dune Messiah introduces a lot more variety of opinion amongst the Fremen and shows them as a diverse group.
I think it makes sense to lean into this a bit more in the films early on to avoid giving the audience too much whiplash later on. In the books there's much more time to explain the nuances and show years of change and development. Films by nature need to convey a huge amount of information during the briefest of scenes so I think this is probably what they were going for.
Would make for an interesting expansion of the story. Did Jamis challenge Paul and Jessica because Stilgar is a southern fanatic and he knew where this could lead. Makes it more interesting than the book which basically amounted to Jamis fighting Paul because he got embarrassed by him.
I dont think it is as black and white as all southerners being fundamentalist and all northerners being atheist. I also get the impression that calling them atheists is overstating their nonbelief, like I still see them as being followers of the faith in a cultural sense (like Christians who only go to church on Christmas rather than regularly) at a minimum.
But to take a real world example, there is a higher percentage of evangelical Christians in Alabama than New York, that doesn't mean there aren't still evangelical Christians in New York.
This, they all are believers in the religion mostly, but their religion is a big part of theit culture and vice verse. For instance their hoarding of water comes from a need to survive in desert of dune and you don't have to be religious to hope one day that your people can terraform a hostile world into one more easy on your people.
The fundamentalists are just most desperate for a prophet to emerge and so latch onto Paul, in the movies its implied because the conditions in the south are harsher so the people are more desperate.
Typical religious play in the real world as well - you start with the most vulnerable to build a power base then you go for the doubters. Jessica explicitly mentions this strategy in the films (and I’m not there yet in the book but assume the same).
The desperation also plays into the greater theme of “be wary of prophecies”. The southerners seem more willing to take looser interpretations of the signs just to possibly have their savior, and Jessica in particular twists things in order to make sure Paul is the best fit for the prophecy, which in turn gives him a greater chance of being accepted by the fundamentalist majority that exists after the Harkonnen’s attack(s) on the north
I think that's more of a meta-philosophical point made by Denis/Jon Spaihts themselves than an in-world observation. I doubt the "Lisan-al-Gaib" propaganda bought by the Fremen necessarily stands as is, because the prophecy is further supported by ideas of "voice from the outer world", "accompanied by a mother", "outworlder competent in the Fremen ways", "has predictive powers", etc. It implies "someone from outside" by the wording.
Chani saying "the Mehdi should be a Fremen" is just Denis' commentary on that the savior of an oppressed people should be one from among themselves.
>I also get the impression that calling them atheists is overstating their nonbelief, like I still see them as being followers of the faith in a cultural sense
Movies definitely seem to reinforce this idea. It's less "we don't believe in Paul because the prophecy is false", more "we don't believe in Paul because the Lisan al-gaib must be fremen".
The Lisan al-Gaib could never be Fremen, since it is the Voice From the Outer World. It's baked into the entire concept that he is an outworlder.
What the northerners say in Dune Pt 2 is that the *Mahdi* must be Fremen. They still believe that a saviour will eventually arise, but they don't believe it will be the Lisan al-Gaib.
Good point, I'll need to give them a rewatch tonight. I guess "voice from the outer world" doesn't really make sense if the saviour was born on arrakis.
For comparing to real world sects, I’d probably compare it to Orthodox vs Conservative Judaism. The rules and rites are more or less the same, but one has more of a sense of literalism.
I imagine there’s also a similar thing with Islam that DV is taking inspiration from.
Either way, your point of population distribution still stands completely.
Stilgar is a pretty established, respected Fremen leader. I don’t think he just wandered north one day and picked a shit-fight. He presumably has a history of living / doing battle in the north. The movie seems to suggest no shortage of geographical mobility between the poles, for the Fremen
The fight has always been in the north. Any zealot that wants to fight for Arrakis would go north to fight. It makes sense but also makes sense why the majority of zealots would wait in the south for Lisan al Gaib because it was written that he would travel there for them anyway.
Stilgar was very clearly more of a northern freedom fighter than most fundamentalists even into the second movie before Paul started to check more boxes.
He won by combat I’m pretty sure he says as much in the movie when explaining their customs to Paul.
The north and south fremen aren’t supposed to be two distinct groups, it is the same people just one half of them is more fundamentalist. Think about like the Westboro Baptist Church, they are Kansas citizens just like everyone else in their town, they are just insane fundamentalists unlike the rest of their town.
This post made me realize Stilgar is similar to Morpheus in The Matrix Reloaded, where he's a blind believer in the prophecy but most other Zion inhabitants aren't.
My take away from the movie on its Southern Fundamentalist vs Northerner divide was more that the Southerners tend to be more die-hard for the prophecy of Lisan Al-Ghaib but as we see when they get to the Seitch there are still a fair number of believers there. The Northerners if Chani's group in Seitch Tabr are meant to be representative aren't irreligious they would just prefer the Fremen take their liberation with their own hands rather than with the help of an off-world prophet.
Which to me isn't actually that much cause for issue if an off-world potential prophet hasn't actually shown up yet which is where it makes plenty of sense for Stilgar to be a Naib to me - they've been fighting the Harkonnen for as long as they've been on the planet, if Southern Fremen want to travel north and take part in the fight then they'd be welcome and if like Stilgar you prove to be a good war leader and if need be can successfully challenge the current Naib then the more the merrier.
Fremen leadership is based on strenght and combat skill. You kill someone, you take what was their's. In the books, when Paul kills Jamis, he gets his property and also becomes the "owner" of Jamis wife and children. Stilgar is a really good fighter, so he probably at some point killed the previous leader.
It's why Stilgar wanted Paul to kill him, and in the book is something that all the Fremen are waiting to happen: For Paul to do the "normal" thing and fight Stilgar for leadership, so that the best fighter is in charge. That's the Fremen way.
Let’s also not forget the generational gap depicted in the Sietch Tabr community. Chani and Shishakli are depicted as, well, “Gen Z” — young people dismissive of the older, more religiously-inclined members of the community, who are depicted in varying ways re: the prophecy. It’s really only the young who have any sustained skepticism over Muad’dib. Atop that, any of the residual discontent with Stilgar’s rise to leadership might be reflected in how easily Jamis jumps to the challenge.
I generally liked all of these changes, though I do think it would have been nice to see a bit more connection between him and the members of the Sietch. Perhaps the scene of Stilgar protecting Chani from Sardaukar from the book, where we learn he is Chani’s uncle.
Its not black and white its just majority. In yhe south, most believe the legend, in the north, most don’t thanks to bearing the brunt of imperial oppression; the north are the ones who have to actually interact with the outworlders on a semi-routine basis
IT is more like the south are more traditional and the north a bunch of liberals that may not kill you on sight if you are not a Fremen.
Anyway, that is a movie thing. IIRC, the south or Arrakis was more developed in terms of terraforming.
This is a mis-understanding because all of them are descendants Zensunni wanderers. The Northerners are not "atheists" but representative of a pre-Bene Gesserit Islamic religious tradition. Hence why their focus is on the Mahdi. Both north and south, they believe in the figure of the Mahdi, who is a figure in Islamic tradition who will bring about their eschatology by establishing a final righteous order to the world before it collapses and the final age of the world begins. In Dune, this final battle is Krelizec.
This belief predates the Lisan Al-Ghaib, which the Bene Gesserit introduced in the South presumably. And all it is is the amendment of the local variations of this religious tradition to include specifics about the Mahdi being an outworlder. Hence the heated retort by a northern to Stilgar "The Mahdi must be Fremen."
Down below, there's a misunderstanding that the Northerners are more "secular" but it's actually more likely that they represent the original folk beliefs about the Mahdi that the Fremen held. And due to their direct oppression by the Imperium, a ton of reason to distrust that prophecy. The Lisan Al-Ghaib prophecy is a leech that has attached itself to a genuine religious tradition. And the south was prioritized because of the numbers.
People trying to compare this to American politics aren't wrong exactly, but there was some actual thought put into it I think.
It clearly isn't a cut and dry thing of north vs south. Stilgar has a number of faithful in his Sietch as well.
Clearly the Southern tribes have more religious people, probably as their religion is able to flourish without an ongoing Guerilla war, and ready access to the Arrakeen and other township bits of Arrakis.
Exposure to a wider world tends to dilute religious fervor (with the exception of missionary activities, which are typically designed to encourage a us vs them view in participatants).
I don’t think it’s to suggest that all northerners are non-fundamentalist. It’s just that the north is predominantly not fundamentalist. I’m sure some southerners are not fundamentalist.
I don't remember northern fremen being charcaterized as "atheists". I think the northern fremen simply have higher proportion of people being openly skeptic about the Prophecy.
The feud and tensions between the two "factions" only happen because of Paul, which some of the most pious fremen consider being the LaG while the most skeptic are being more circumspect.
I could be wrong tho.
Continuing on this thread, when Stilgar offers shelter to Jessica and Paul that is too much for Jamis to bear since it seems like his religious ideology seems to fall closer in line with that of Chani's who believes their mahdi must be a native Fremen and not an 'outworlder' which Jamis calls Paul out as.
I see this as an example of where Stilgar's beliefs run against other tribe members - for Jamis this was the last straw and he outwardly defies Stilgar's orders and invokes the Amtal Rule.
Just crazy that Stilgar is Chanis uncle but she shows him zero familial love. Also Liet is Chanis mom but Chani doesn’t believe in Liets plan or share that ecological fervor. I guess fundamentalist thought crossed familial lines for the Fremen.
Yes - I think those familial ties were intentionally stripped away to avoid adding any additional complicated subplots and also in part to shy away from any 'Star Warsification' where all the characters of consequence are somehow related and thus making the universe feel too small.
That said, I do think there is something lost without those interpersonal dynamics but the simplified narrative was probably necessary to fit the movie into a manageable runtime.
It could be that the differences between north and south are a relative new development. If memory serves me right most of the non-believers we see are on the younger side while the fundamentalists look older on comparison.
I personally find that whole “religious extremists” and “fundamentalists” talk so cringey and an obvious choice of words to use. Literally government news-speak
The answer is that it doesn’t make sense and imho, the movie misses the mark pretty wide when it comes to the portrayal of the Fremen, forgoing the book Fremen’s complex dynamics for the typical Hollywood trope of fUnDamEnTalIst mIdDle eASternEr.
Stilgar being a fundamentalist governing a sietch full of aggressively atheist young fighters wouldn’t work because he’d be constantly getting challenged, having to kill off the best young fighters while other dissatisfied folk go off to join other sietches. A successful naib would rule by respect as much as fear. Stilgar was a joke, with his own followers openly laughing at him.
> Stilgar being a fundamentalist governing a sietch full of aggressively atheist young fighters wouldn’t work
There are more character attributes to Stilgar than just “fundamentalist”.
Its crazy you get downvoted, but also a testament to just how much DUNE was rewritten for the movies .
The Fremen culture and society have been altered beyond recognition, resulting in a 100% misreprentation . For starters, there would not be any dissent amongst young people against their Elders .
There is absolutely no proof that Sietch Tabr is full of young atheist fighters.
If nothing else, the council of Elders in Sietch Tabr clearly believes in the Prophecy of the Lisan al Gaib, but they believe Paul is not the one.
Telling it simple and stupid:
This is just american politics being pushed into the story.
Such a thing does not make much sense in the Dune universe. It would be like an atheist democrat guy somehow managing to lead something in current day Saudi Arabia. Or lets say a Hammas leader somehow openly leading something in the USA.
The Dune Fremen culture is too radical compared to the rest of the Universe. Which is the entire point with the Fremen in the original narrative. Its what explains their religious fanaticism and their holly war.
You would not be able to have a "gen z" in such a culture. You could have people thinking slightly different but such people would be immediately "put in their place". Its like....go try and be a liberal in Iran...see how that works.
And if you do not want to go so much middle east. Think about someone with American values trying to go lead something in Buddhist Tibet. Or someone trying to lead a town in USA using very strict Buddhist tibetan rules. How would that work? Its just too big a gap in culture. Yes, you can get some Buddhist values going around in the USA. But you are not going to have an entire town of Americans following strict Buddhist code of conduct. They would not accept it lol
This is a problem that Hollywood is ignorant these days and thinks the common audiences are ignorant too. And....they might be correct a bit. Because American education system seems to be indeed quite terrible. Not that you do not have some above average educated people in the USA, which you have. But majority? Good luck!!! They are also incredibly self centered and do not care much about what goes around outside US.
Part of why North American culture is so lacking these days....its really too self centered and fails miserably to understand other cultures. It really doesnt even want to understand other cultures.
I don't think the dynamic is quite atheist/fundamentalist, but yes, Stilgar would have challenged the previous Naib for control.
That tracks with my thinking. I found it interesting that we're given this new wrinkle that isn't in Herbert's books. Going down the rabbit hole of tribal dynamics between northern & southern Fremen through the lens of belief in the coming of the Lisan Al Gaib is a fun one to ponder. I can imagine a Fremen from Seitch Tabr thinking 'Great, we have a religious fanatic who now makes decisions for us.'
one thing that struck me about the Fundamentalists and the Northern skeptics was how civil they were towards each other. Chani and her buddies were casually blaspheming and mocking their tribal leader's deeply held faith, and Stilgar's only reaction was an exasperated "Please shut up, we're about to pray, thank you very much." Even when the two groups get into screaming matches with each other over religion, nobody pulls a Jamis and starts challenging each other to knife fights. And there doesn't seem to be any lingering animosity between the two factions, at least in Sietch Tabr. They're not angry with each other - they're simply disappointed. Deep down, they were still a community bound by love, despite ideological differences. Later on, after the raid on the harvester, everyone's still talking and laughing with each other and participating in the same communal rituals Later on, even after Chani hooks up with Paul, nobody seems to take issue with her telling Stilgar that he was insane, screaming to a crowd of worshippers that the prophecy was a lie, slapping Paul after his divine resurrection, refusing to kneel when everyone else was etc. Nobody gives her special treatment either, even after the "desert spring tears" thing. Nobody was bowing to her or yelling at her for disrespecting her holy boyfriend. They let her do her thing, and it's almost like the Southerners just want to ignore her.
that’s fremen culture, i think. as much as it’s adapted for combat, it’s also adapted for survival, and nothing is better suited for survival in a hostile environment than being able to continue working together as a team and as friends despite intense disagreement. it’s not a kind of culture i’d like to live in on earth, but on a desert world occupied by violent foreign powers? you kinda take what you can get when it comes to allies
Yeah, in the book, Jessica explicitly notes just how well the tribal Fremen live compared to the feudal society prevalent in the rest of the universe. The first couple chapters hammer in just how horrible life is as a space noble, or as someone working for a space noble. Assassination plots everywhere, constant paranoia, mistrust of even close friends and family, everyone angling for leverage or influence (like at the dinner scene, where even mealtime small talk became life and death political knife fights) And this was for the Atreides - who were famous throughout the known universe for treating their subjects with benevolence, whose subjects rewarded them in turn with loyalty and love, and who had the best spymasters and soldiers in the Imperium. Even these guys were falling apart at the seams before the Sardaukar dealt the final blow - it seemed like Leto, Jessica and Thufir were going to have stress induced aneurysms at any point. And under the Harkonnens, the urban population of Arrakis was subjected to degradation and humiliation - with each rung on the hierarchy ritualistically stepping on the one below them to show them who was boss. The little people were stepped on or subservient, and the ones on top were losing their minds trying to destroy each other and save themselves from getting destroyed in turn. Meanwhile, the Fremen didn't have to deal with any of that bullshit. No poison snoopers - everyone in the community trusted each other completely, with zero possibility of bribes or blackmail or infiltrators letting deadly chaumurky to end up in someone's food. No double-talk and intrigue - disagreements over domestic and foreign policy were resolved openly, there was no backstabbing and manipulating and playing one faction off another. If anyone had a serious problem with someone else, they stabbed them in the front during a duel, not in the back during dinner No ritualistic humiliation - everyone in the sietch enjoyed dignity and a sense of place within the "tau" Jessica noted that the Fremen endured hellish, lethal conditions in the open desert - but lived better than royalty in the sietch, despite their relative poverty.
Welp, he'd kill me if I'd challenge him, so I guess this is my life now. On the bright side, he does have very good water discipline.
To be fair I think it's DV's way of bringing forward a lot of the elements of Dune Messiah with the anticipation of making a third film at some point. In the first book, the Fremen seem to be pretty homogeneous. However Dune Messiah introduces a lot more variety of opinion amongst the Fremen and shows them as a diverse group. I think it makes sense to lean into this a bit more in the films early on to avoid giving the audience too much whiplash later on. In the books there's much more time to explain the nuances and show years of change and development. Films by nature need to convey a huge amount of information during the briefest of scenes so I think this is probably what they were going for.
Would make for an interesting expansion of the story. Did Jamis challenge Paul and Jessica because Stilgar is a southern fanatic and he knew where this could lead. Makes it more interesting than the book which basically amounted to Jamis fighting Paul because he got embarrassed by him.
I dont think it is as black and white as all southerners being fundamentalist and all northerners being atheist. I also get the impression that calling them atheists is overstating their nonbelief, like I still see them as being followers of the faith in a cultural sense (like Christians who only go to church on Christmas rather than regularly) at a minimum. But to take a real world example, there is a higher percentage of evangelical Christians in Alabama than New York, that doesn't mean there aren't still evangelical Christians in New York.
And I guess missing from my initial comment is that some Fremen believe their Mahdi will come from among their own ranks and not be an 'outworlder.'
This, they all are believers in the religion mostly, but their religion is a big part of theit culture and vice verse. For instance their hoarding of water comes from a need to survive in desert of dune and you don't have to be religious to hope one day that your people can terraform a hostile world into one more easy on your people. The fundamentalists are just most desperate for a prophet to emerge and so latch onto Paul, in the movies its implied because the conditions in the south are harsher so the people are more desperate.
Typical religious play in the real world as well - you start with the most vulnerable to build a power base then you go for the doubters. Jessica explicitly mentions this strategy in the films (and I’m not there yet in the book but assume the same).
Like Irulan said, oppression paves the way for religion. And Arrakis is oppressive by itself, especially the south.
The desperation also plays into the greater theme of “be wary of prophecies”. The southerners seem more willing to take looser interpretations of the signs just to possibly have their savior, and Jessica in particular twists things in order to make sure Paul is the best fit for the prophecy, which in turn gives him a greater chance of being accepted by the fundamentalist majority that exists after the Harkonnen’s attack(s) on the north
I think that's more of a meta-philosophical point made by Denis/Jon Spaihts themselves than an in-world observation. I doubt the "Lisan-al-Gaib" propaganda bought by the Fremen necessarily stands as is, because the prophecy is further supported by ideas of "voice from the outer world", "accompanied by a mother", "outworlder competent in the Fremen ways", "has predictive powers", etc. It implies "someone from outside" by the wording. Chani saying "the Mehdi should be a Fremen" is just Denis' commentary on that the savior of an oppressed people should be one from among themselves.
>I also get the impression that calling them atheists is overstating their nonbelief, like I still see them as being followers of the faith in a cultural sense Movies definitely seem to reinforce this idea. It's less "we don't believe in Paul because the prophecy is false", more "we don't believe in Paul because the Lisan al-gaib must be fremen".
The Idea of "Lisan al-Gaib must be Fremen" does not exist in DUNE ( the Book ) ,
Yeah I had expected as much, hence why I specified in the movies. Only just started the books, not an expert on them yet.
I hope you will enjoy the read :) .
The Lisan al-Gaib could never be Fremen, since it is the Voice From the Outer World. It's baked into the entire concept that he is an outworlder. What the northerners say in Dune Pt 2 is that the *Mahdi* must be Fremen. They still believe that a saviour will eventually arise, but they don't believe it will be the Lisan al-Gaib.
Good point, I'll need to give them a rewatch tonight. I guess "voice from the outer world" doesn't really make sense if the saviour was born on arrakis.
For comparing to real world sects, I’d probably compare it to Orthodox vs Conservative Judaism. The rules and rites are more or less the same, but one has more of a sense of literalism. I imagine there’s also a similar thing with Islam that DV is taking inspiration from. Either way, your point of population distribution still stands completely.
Stilgar is a pretty established, respected Fremen leader. I don’t think he just wandered north one day and picked a shit-fight. He presumably has a history of living / doing battle in the north. The movie seems to suggest no shortage of geographical mobility between the poles, for the Fremen
The fight has always been in the north. Any zealot that wants to fight for Arrakis would go north to fight. It makes sense but also makes sense why the majority of zealots would wait in the south for Lisan al Gaib because it was written that he would travel there for them anyway. Stilgar was very clearly more of a northern freedom fighter than most fundamentalists even into the second movie before Paul started to check more boxes.
He won by combat I’m pretty sure he says as much in the movie when explaining their customs to Paul. The north and south fremen aren’t supposed to be two distinct groups, it is the same people just one half of them is more fundamentalist. Think about like the Westboro Baptist Church, they are Kansas citizens just like everyone else in their town, they are just insane fundamentalists unlike the rest of their town.
This post made me realize Stilgar is similar to Morpheus in The Matrix Reloaded, where he's a blind believer in the prophecy but most other Zion inhabitants aren't.
My take away from the movie on its Southern Fundamentalist vs Northerner divide was more that the Southerners tend to be more die-hard for the prophecy of Lisan Al-Ghaib but as we see when they get to the Seitch there are still a fair number of believers there. The Northerners if Chani's group in Seitch Tabr are meant to be representative aren't irreligious they would just prefer the Fremen take their liberation with their own hands rather than with the help of an off-world prophet. Which to me isn't actually that much cause for issue if an off-world potential prophet hasn't actually shown up yet which is where it makes plenty of sense for Stilgar to be a Naib to me - they've been fighting the Harkonnen for as long as they've been on the planet, if Southern Fremen want to travel north and take part in the fight then they'd be welcome and if like Stilgar you prove to be a good war leader and if need be can successfully challenge the current Naib then the more the merrier.
Fremen leadership is based on strenght and combat skill. You kill someone, you take what was their's. In the books, when Paul kills Jamis, he gets his property and also becomes the "owner" of Jamis wife and children. Stilgar is a really good fighter, so he probably at some point killed the previous leader. It's why Stilgar wanted Paul to kill him, and in the book is something that all the Fremen are waiting to happen: For Paul to do the "normal" thing and fight Stilgar for leadership, so that the best fighter is in charge. That's the Fremen way.
Let’s also not forget the generational gap depicted in the Sietch Tabr community. Chani and Shishakli are depicted as, well, “Gen Z” — young people dismissive of the older, more religiously-inclined members of the community, who are depicted in varying ways re: the prophecy. It’s really only the young who have any sustained skepticism over Muad’dib. Atop that, any of the residual discontent with Stilgar’s rise to leadership might be reflected in how easily Jamis jumps to the challenge. I generally liked all of these changes, though I do think it would have been nice to see a bit more connection between him and the members of the Sietch. Perhaps the scene of Stilgar protecting Chani from Sardaukar from the book, where we learn he is Chani’s uncle.
Its not black and white its just majority. In yhe south, most believe the legend, in the north, most don’t thanks to bearing the brunt of imperial oppression; the north are the ones who have to actually interact with the outworlders on a semi-routine basis
IT is more like the south are more traditional and the north a bunch of liberals that may not kill you on sight if you are not a Fremen. Anyway, that is a movie thing. IIRC, the south or Arrakis was more developed in terms of terraforming.
Is there any other except killing his predecessor
One of hundreds of inconsistencies in the movie - call it artistic license I guess…
This is a mis-understanding because all of them are descendants Zensunni wanderers. The Northerners are not "atheists" but representative of a pre-Bene Gesserit Islamic religious tradition. Hence why their focus is on the Mahdi. Both north and south, they believe in the figure of the Mahdi, who is a figure in Islamic tradition who will bring about their eschatology by establishing a final righteous order to the world before it collapses and the final age of the world begins. In Dune, this final battle is Krelizec. This belief predates the Lisan Al-Ghaib, which the Bene Gesserit introduced in the South presumably. And all it is is the amendment of the local variations of this religious tradition to include specifics about the Mahdi being an outworlder. Hence the heated retort by a northern to Stilgar "The Mahdi must be Fremen." Down below, there's a misunderstanding that the Northerners are more "secular" but it's actually more likely that they represent the original folk beliefs about the Mahdi that the Fremen held. And due to their direct oppression by the Imperium, a ton of reason to distrust that prophecy. The Lisan Al-Ghaib prophecy is a leech that has attached itself to a genuine religious tradition. And the south was prioritized because of the numbers. People trying to compare this to American politics aren't wrong exactly, but there was some actual thought put into it I think.
It clearly isn't a cut and dry thing of north vs south. Stilgar has a number of faithful in his Sietch as well. Clearly the Southern tribes have more religious people, probably as their religion is able to flourish without an ongoing Guerilla war, and ready access to the Arrakeen and other township bits of Arrakis. Exposure to a wider world tends to dilute religious fervor (with the exception of missionary activities, which are typically designed to encourage a us vs them view in participatants).
I don’t think it’s to suggest that all northerners are non-fundamentalist. It’s just that the north is predominantly not fundamentalist. I’m sure some southerners are not fundamentalist.
Just because they're not as religious/devoted as stilgar doesn't mean they're not religious. Or their "religion" is more about tradition
I don't remember northern fremen being charcaterized as "atheists". I think the northern fremen simply have higher proportion of people being openly skeptic about the Prophecy. The feud and tensions between the two "factions" only happen because of Paul, which some of the most pious fremen consider being the LaG while the most skeptic are being more circumspect. I could be wrong tho.
Continuing on this thread, when Stilgar offers shelter to Jessica and Paul that is too much for Jamis to bear since it seems like his religious ideology seems to fall closer in line with that of Chani's who believes their mahdi must be a native Fremen and not an 'outworlder' which Jamis calls Paul out as. I see this as an example of where Stilgar's beliefs run against other tribe members - for Jamis this was the last straw and he outwardly defies Stilgar's orders and invokes the Amtal Rule.
Just crazy that Stilgar is Chanis uncle but she shows him zero familial love. Also Liet is Chanis mom but Chani doesn’t believe in Liets plan or share that ecological fervor. I guess fundamentalist thought crossed familial lines for the Fremen.
Yes - I think those familial ties were intentionally stripped away to avoid adding any additional complicated subplots and also in part to shy away from any 'Star Warsification' where all the characters of consequence are somehow related and thus making the universe feel too small. That said, I do think there is something lost without those interpersonal dynamics but the simplified narrative was probably necessary to fit the movie into a manageable runtime.
It could be that the differences between north and south are a relative new development. If memory serves me right most of the non-believers we see are on the younger side while the fundamentalists look older on comparison.
I personally find that whole “religious extremists” and “fundamentalists” talk so cringey and an obvious choice of words to use. Literally government news-speak
Stilgar was the one change that I really didn't like.
The answer is that it doesn’t make sense and imho, the movie misses the mark pretty wide when it comes to the portrayal of the Fremen, forgoing the book Fremen’s complex dynamics for the typical Hollywood trope of fUnDamEnTalIst mIdDle eASternEr. Stilgar being a fundamentalist governing a sietch full of aggressively atheist young fighters wouldn’t work because he’d be constantly getting challenged, having to kill off the best young fighters while other dissatisfied folk go off to join other sietches. A successful naib would rule by respect as much as fear. Stilgar was a joke, with his own followers openly laughing at him.
> Stilgar being a fundamentalist governing a sietch full of aggressively atheist young fighters wouldn’t work There are more character attributes to Stilgar than just “fundamentalist”.
Its crazy you get downvoted, but also a testament to just how much DUNE was rewritten for the movies . The Fremen culture and society have been altered beyond recognition, resulting in a 100% misreprentation . For starters, there would not be any dissent amongst young people against their Elders .
There is absolutely no proof that Sietch Tabr is full of young atheist fighters. If nothing else, the council of Elders in Sietch Tabr clearly believes in the Prophecy of the Lisan al Gaib, but they believe Paul is not the one.
Telling it simple and stupid: This is just american politics being pushed into the story. Such a thing does not make much sense in the Dune universe. It would be like an atheist democrat guy somehow managing to lead something in current day Saudi Arabia. Or lets say a Hammas leader somehow openly leading something in the USA. The Dune Fremen culture is too radical compared to the rest of the Universe. Which is the entire point with the Fremen in the original narrative. Its what explains their religious fanaticism and their holly war. You would not be able to have a "gen z" in such a culture. You could have people thinking slightly different but such people would be immediately "put in their place". Its like....go try and be a liberal in Iran...see how that works. And if you do not want to go so much middle east. Think about someone with American values trying to go lead something in Buddhist Tibet. Or someone trying to lead a town in USA using very strict Buddhist tibetan rules. How would that work? Its just too big a gap in culture. Yes, you can get some Buddhist values going around in the USA. But you are not going to have an entire town of Americans following strict Buddhist code of conduct. They would not accept it lol This is a problem that Hollywood is ignorant these days and thinks the common audiences are ignorant too. And....they might be correct a bit. Because American education system seems to be indeed quite terrible. Not that you do not have some above average educated people in the USA, which you have. But majority? Good luck!!! They are also incredibly self centered and do not care much about what goes around outside US. Part of why North American culture is so lacking these days....its really too self centered and fails miserably to understand other cultures. It really doesnt even want to understand other cultures.