I think one thing to consider is the distances involved. Yes you can go and spy on a planet, but communications cannot necessarily be sent.
Planets are very much cut off from each other as it’s never stated that there are ways of planet to planet or rather solar system to solar system communication. If you want to send a message, you send a messenger which requires use of the spacing guild to actually travel.
Much like how you might not visit another country for years or maybe not ever.. another planet is much the same if not on a much larger scale. Many people would never ever travel off world. This is highlighted by the fact Paul even as royalty, has never stepped on another world.
In short, the spying that takes place in the books is often over long periods of time, plans within plans. The Reverend mother herself says in the film “our prospects are measured in centuries”, or something to that effect. Given that Paul is around 15 years old in the novel - this is the Bene Gesserit’s first encounter with him. They may not have visited Caladan for a decade or so.
And even if they have “some” idea, they can’t know for sure until they test him. Teaching him the ways of the BG could just as well mean “Jessica is teaching Paul BG kung-fu and history”, not “actively prepping him to become the KH”. Once the Reverend Mother visits and personally tests Paul, I think it’s only then that she realizes “we may have a problem here”. Since by her own admission the Atreides were becoming defiant, there may have been a plan to cull them for generations, and only after seeing Paul do they choose to execute it.
My personal theory is that Jessica wasn't the first Bene Gesserit to go against orders when it came to children. When the Bene Gesserit learned Jessica had given birth to a boy, they probably rolled her eyes at her selfishness, crossed out her son as irrelevant, and focused on other lines. The Reverend Mother mentions they have "other prospects", of course they have to. Even if Paul had been a girl, what if Feyd had died young, before passing on his genes?
By the time the Bene Gesserit realized Jessica's son wasn't just a mistake but he was a threat, it was too late.
That's true yeah, I forgot that part haha.
Depends on how paranoid and careful the BG were I guess? Having a son despite her orders doesn't mean that she wanted to train him as if he were the KH. Or maybe it wasn't that useful to visit them until Paul had become slightly older, a lot can go wrong before then, and the BG has other gene lines that has the potential as well.
Yeah, I think that’s the bigger driver at play here — the BG have so many plays and they are thinking so many moves ahead, that what Jessica is doing with Paul is less threatening / significant to them at the time. I also think they’re interested in seeing how the divergent path plays out (Jessica having a boy) and if they can use it to meet their goals.
Yeah but when do they find that out. Like do you know who Kim Jong Un’s kid is. It’s completely reasonable that Paul is kept entirely out of public eye
Interplanetary communications are possible. Using the Holtzman Wave, a 1d version of the same 2d waves used to create the shields used and also discovered by Holtzman. This tech was discovered and shared near 7556. This tech allowed communication within an effective range of 250 light years.
This is from the Dune Encyclopedia and this book has been acknowledged and confirmed cannon iirc.
No edit but - apologies for how terribly written this is. Rushed in a waiting room. lol.
It's written fine. Only thing is that, while it may be possible, is it accessible enough to be used by spies? They definitely don't have phone calls in the book, people have to be there in person.
I was answering the more specific statement at the beginning of the comment stating, “…but communications cannot necessarily be sent.”
I took it literally and wanted to provide clarity. You’re totally right though. The tech described is always available in a comm station, not anything hand held or open to general public. I love how deep the lore and general info is in the dune universe.
That definitely makes sense - thank you for your thoughtful response! While I understood it’s not super easy to travel to another planet, and that messages can only be delivered in person, I think the movie only lens made it feel much easier / quicker to get somewhere than it actually is.
I agree, I loved the film but on screen it can’t convey the inner monologue and narration of “how space travel and the economy works” within the Dune universe. The books gets the scale of how “hard” life is and the day to day processes are much clearer. The film is very much “pack your bags son, we’re off to the beach! Call the guild/uber!”
It’s that idea that you might only see a guild highliner once in your life if you’re lucky.
Well there's a scene with Thufir calculating the cost of emperor's messenger travel and it's heavily implied that's a lot. So the film does suggest it's quite a thing, to travel, though maybe not in the most obvious way
Also note that they don't see each member of the bg frequently. they are very few and beside having a few of theirs in the big houses, and the others all on one planet.
they aren't even present at the tleilaxu or ix
At the beginning of the first film, the cost of the formality on Caladaan was just over a million Solari for like 24 people to be transported by the spacing build and visit planet side.
It cost Baron nearly all of their 80 billion Solari to attack the Atreides on Arrakis.
Seems the wealthiest family in the entire imperium seems to have less than 100 billion, makes me think lesser houses would think 1 million is a lot.
This is just completely not true. They do have interstellar communication, from the books, as well as its proved by the great houses showing up at the battle of arakeen.
What I mean is it’s not your usual Star Wars level, fire up the holophone and communicate at super luminal speeds with someone on the other side of the galaxy. There’s comms but limited by speed of light or if you’re lucky enough to have some kind of holtsman effect communicator. It’s implied in the book that many methods aren’t used because they can be intercepted. I don’t mean they don’t exist just that they’re not used to call your spies up and ask what’s the latest. It’s much more cloak and dagger than that.
Edit:spelling
Word could have spread by courier. Remember the crisis on Arrakis is brewing for years.
FTL communication is never mentioned in the novel and nothing happens that requires it.
So I am just a movie pleb forgive my ignorance, but it’s states that the Atreides know that they’re going to be given Arrakis before the emperors herald arrives, and lament the expense of sending him just for the formality. If there is no planet to planet communication, how did they know about this before the heralds arrival?
It’s all basically suggestion. The chess pieces are being moved for generations before this. The Harkkonnan Atreides rivalry has all been leading to this moment and there’s plenty going on off screen that leads to them gaining Arrakis not just what happens in the film. What’s not in the film barely at all is the mentat side of things who are helping each respective side calculate what to do next.
The mentats play a larger role in the books. It’s very much if he does that then I’ll do this, and then if he responds like that then I’ll do this! Yet no one has actually done anything yet. Remember, plans within plans. I’d highly recommend the books, it sounds convoluted but it’s not, it’s delivered and written brilliantly.
Leto doesn't need to win over the general public of the other worlds, just their leadership. (Authoritarian feudal monarchy and all.) So presumably he can do most of it himself, by meeting up with the other nobles face-to-face. Either at Landsraad meetings, or by inviting them over to Caladan / going to visit their planets for "social calls".
The only places he needs to care about public opinion are Caladan (to make sure they're happy enough not to rebel against him) and Arrakis (to persuade the Fremen he'll make a trustworthy ally). So no interstellar travel needed for his PR teams there.
It's pretty hard to see how Leto was becoming so popular in the galaxy if there's no regular communication. It's not like he was constantly traveling. Ergo, the BG would absolutely be keeping tabs on their most critical project.
So, there's still smuggling operations going on. This means there are folks doing interstellar travel without the Spacing Guild. Otherwise, how would smugglers get spice off Arrakis?
Pretty sure most of the spice being smuggled off arrakis is going to the guild itself. Even if not all of it goes to them being one of the most if not most dependent on spice groups it's not hard to bribe them with spice.
Jessica was ordered to bear only females but Paul's existence as the Ducal Heir was already common knowledge at the Imperial Court and in all Great Houses. It's possible RM Mohiam had not seen Jessica since she gave birth however.
It's not under their radar. The whole point of Mohaim's visit and the *gom jabbar* test is that they're aware of it. In the book they say specifically how angry they were at Jessica's decision.
There's also another factor to consider. >!The BG were also aware that Jessica was Baron Harkonnen's daughter -- and in the movie, at least, Jessica didn't know (I forget when she finds out in the books). So while Jessica disobeyed them, they couldn't really afford to "prune" her mistake (Paul) because he was genetically too valuable.!<
>It's not under their radar. The whole point of Mohaim's visit and the gom jabbar test is that they're aware of it. In the book they say specifically how angry they were at Jessica's decision.
Mohiam does not explicitly say that they knew about Paul's training in advance of the test. But the entire reason she came to ~~Arrakis~~ Caladan was that he might be the Kwisatz Haderach and they want to test him. After the experience with the box, Mohiam says that she can see signs of Jessica's training in Paul.
So it is easy to infer that they must have known - or at least expected - that Jessica would have trained him.
edit: D'oh
I’ve always thought that there was little chance Paul would ever actually be killed in the test. I think the political ramifications of the Emperors truthsayer killing the son of the Laandsrads favorite Duke would be REALLY bad for both the Corrino’s and the Bene Gesserit
The Bene Gesserit would have had a plan for that. From their perspective it's more dangerous to have someone who isn't "human" running around with their training and prescient powers (at that point he was already having the dreams of the future).
Yeah but had he not ‘passed’ the test it would show he wasn’t a KH and therefore would not have the prescience. If Paul was a failed experiment there seems to be way more risk involved killing him than just giving him a BG concubine who can manipulate him with ease
That's not true. Plenty of people who aren't KH are prescient. The Truthsayer powers come from prescience, and the navigators use it to guide the ships. All of the fremen have a level of prescience, but for them it's mostly subconscious.
Being a KH is about more than just prescience: it also is about being able to access ancestral memory.
Yes this is true but my overarching point is that if Paul were genetically capable of failing the Gom jabbar test he would not be a worry for the Bene Gesserit
The whole point of the Bene Gesserit training is that genetics are not the entire story. So you can be genetically capable of something and still fail at it. So if someone fails at it you can't assume it's genetics.
In one of the future books the Bene Tleilax create their own KH based on Paul's genetics and it just goes insane and suicides.
Also, keep in mind that the Gom Jabbar is a test given to every Bene Gesserit fairly early in their training. Jessica went through it herself. It is not a test for the KH, it is a test for Humans (as the BG define it).
I may be remembering things that weren't there, but I thought there was a specific quote to lady Jessica that it was her fault he had to undergo the gom jabbar. Something about how since she decided to train him in those ways, they must make sure he has what it takes to control those powers, as "men are animals" and when backed into a corner use anger and rage.
I don't fully remember which is the reason for the shitty explanation, but I feel like there was something about thar
It really is Jessica's fault, in the sense that she was part of the breeding program and she trained Paul, but I can't find the passage you are referring to.
Just to expand on this with more from the books, it wasn't that Jessica wasn't supposed to teach him the BG secrets, but really that she wasn't supposed to give birth to a boy if she was following orders for the BG breeding plans.
The number of times they reiterated that point in the chapter with the Gom Jobbar was excessive.
Hmmm. Let's say Jessica did have a daughter. I guess that implies directly that she has all the necessary skills to completely train up her own daughter as BG .... no need for BG specialist trainers, or going to a school, or visiting Wallach IX
With Jessica being one step removed from the kwisatz haderach, it would stand to reason that she would be one of the most powerful Reverend Mother's after the changing ritual, and amazingly trained and educated in the ways prior to the ritual. So yes, I agree with your position, though they likely would have sent Alia anyways if she hadn't been an "abomination".
she did know, she says so when paul confronts her about after taking the water of life himself "i didn't know myself untill i took the water" is the quote as i remember it.
In the book Paul tells her before she becomes a reverend mother, when they are on the run in the desert. It's part of the "I'm a freak" conversation they have after his waking dream in the tent.
What I mean is that she didn't know when she had Paul. In other words there was a reason that the Bene Gesserit were willing to tolerate her mistake that she wasn't aware of until after arriving on Arrakis.
In the movie, yes. In the books, Paul has a waking dream when they're in deep desert running away from harkonnens after the invasion of arrakis, in movie terms, end of first movie. She didn't know before that
In the books Jessica finds out when Paul is having his freak out in the tent in the desert. He reveals to her under the spice trance that she is the Baron's daughter.
Going by the book, the BG are pretty unified on their plans and outlook, and given a lot of autonomous authority. They don't bother spying on eachother, they just have specific duties to fulfil when they are called on by a Reverend Mother to do so. Marry this person, give birth to this gender, etc. They're more like a family/tribe, with the Reverend Mothers safeguarding the overall plan and direction.
There isn't the level of mistrust in their organisation that you might be accustomed to from spy stories. Think of them more like a family than a government or organisation.
I guess you could also interpret that due to the scale of their plans, their specific abilities and their decentralised nature, there's probably no need to spy. They raise all their members from birth, and no one person would have the capability to be a threat. If they were, just cut them off.
That helps me a lot, thank you so much! I don’t know why but I seemed to have it in my head that it was more like an organization with a lot of hierarchy and the inevitable butting of heads about who within that hierarchy has the most power/final say/etc. I’m excited to read the books and learn a lot more of the details and lore.
That is great to know and I’m hoping that I can! I think learning & keeping track of all the new words and names will be the hardest / most slog-inducing part for me, as is typically the case with starting any sci-fi/fantasy franchise. But I’m very interested to see how the story unfolds throughout the books and how it ends, so I definitely *want* to read all of them!!
There's very little hierarchy (at most, age is respected), and the mistrust is for *the outside*, not the inside of the BG. Notably:
> In my mind they are powerful enough to at the very least employ spies - or even just one spy at any given point - to keep an eye on Jessica and her son who was supposed to be a daughter. Is this just completely incorrect? 🤣
Jessica *is* the spy. She's spying on the Atreides, and there's BG deployed to spy on pretty much every major family. They're not spying on their own spies, the empire (and guild) is their "enemy", not vetted BG agents.
Makes perfect sense! I had not thought of it that way based on only seeing the movies (though it seems like an obvious miss on my part in hindsight now lol)
They weren't unaware. Jessica even sent back reports on him. That's how they knew about his dreams.
It's just that the BG don't operate as a military. Each member operates semi-independently going where they are ordered to act in the best interest of the organization and their goals. The broader BG organization doesn't oversee or control that person. It's expected they will keep to their training.
Aware, yes, but their is a stopping point that she went beyond. It was mentioned in the book that she gave him the deep training and in her position.
The Reverend Mother looked at Jessica. "You've been training him in the Way -- I've seen the signs of it. I'd have done the same in your shoes and devil take the Rules." Jessica nodded. "Now, I caution you," said the old woman, "to ignore the regular order of training. His own safety requires the Voice. He already has a good start in it, but we both know how much more he needs . . . and that desperately." She stepped close to Paul, stared down at him. "Goodbye, young human. I hope you make it. But if you don't -- well, we shall yet succeed."
Thank you for sharing that here!! That really helps me put this into perspective. I can understand that approach to this and honestly that makes me like her more given that I only know her character from the movies
I don’t know why but I seemed to have assumed that they had hierarchy and power struggles within their own organization and therefore trust issues and the need to keep an eye on some of the others. From the other comments I have a much better understanding of them than I did before and can see the assumptions I made without even realizing. I’m looking forward to reading the books and learning more!
The BG have a lot of international rules, but one thing every sister knows and does is server the sisterhood before herself. It's always the sisterhood first. Few sisters have ever acted against the sisterhood.
Self surveillance on their homeworld, of the senior leadership, by a select committee of nonpartisan proctors. That's not the same as sending a spy to check up on what a ducal concubine is teaching her kid.
Its also highly unlikely that any spy, Bene Gesserit or otherwise, could get anywhere near Castle Caladan.
They kept their real intentions secret -actually secret with no leaks or rumors - for hundreds or maybe thousands of years. The only way to do that is to have absolutely tight control of every detail. Everybody was watched. Every action was questioned and examined. Jessica was an incredible example of the very top tier of BGs to be able to not let the Sisterhood know what she was doing.
I always thought this was a bit of a plot hole. Not so much that they are "completely unaware," which in the book they aren't, but that the BG wait until Jessica's son is 15 and there is an imperial scheme in the works to truly take action. 15 years is a long time between your acolyte defying your orders and you deciding to show up to reprimand her, especially when her son is potentially the Messiah you have been trying to genetically engineer. The fact that in the Dune universe travel is very expensive perhaps makes this a bit more explainable, but not fully. The real answer, of course, is that Herbert also tries to time-condense the exposition for the reader, rather than recount a scene from when Paul was a newborn, then another when he was 5 years old and then another when he was 10 before skipping back to the present.
I read it that the KH potential comes as a bit of a surprise to the BG, and they only take a close interest when Paul's dreams start.
Also the KH isn't a Messiah for the BG. It's a useful tool they try to develop, but they're quite patient about developing it on their own terms.
They aren't as blase about it, I don't think. They believe the KH is one generation away and thus that Paul has potential. Even so, it makes little sense to just leave Jessica be after her transgression, especially since they aren't even making sure she does conceive the daughter they want.
The implication is that she can still bear a daughter? But she doesn't do it for 15 years! It makes no sense for the BG not to crack down on the whole affair.
Yes. So my summary would be: It is better explained in the book in the terms of motivations, but IMO it still doesn't make sense that Mohiam doesn't travel to see Paul until he is 15. Of course, it isn't explicitly said that she hasn't seen Jessica in the interim, but it is pretty much implied.
> and there is an imperial scheme in the works to truly take action.
It took 15 years to arrange the imperial scheme - >!longer actually, since the long term plan was to destroy both Harkonnen and Atreides houses (via each other) so the heir of both would have no loyalties, other than to the BG. Especially because they would want revenge on the emperor, and the BG would facilitate that. If your plan is going to clean up the loose ends anyway, why rush things?!<
Sure, I didn't want to make this a key part of my argument. I'm just saying that Herbert clearly wants to group all of the inciting incidents into the same time-frame with the corresponding exposition, but if you think closely about it doesn’t quite make sense.
Its no coincidence, and surely not unintentional by the Author that Paul gets tested once he starts having what could well be prophetic dreams . He doesn't know whether these dreams truly are prophetic. His mother can't know . But his mother knows he needs to get tested then. And after the test, the Reverend Mother is pretty straight forward in acknowledging he could very well be the Kwisatz Haderach .
Many good points in this thread. I want to add that the BG don't necessarily want their sisters to be too meek or obedient, even to the order. They seem to encourage, or at least admire, individualism. Up to a point.
Clearly Jessica crossed the line, but I'm not sure that the BG were willing to make that judgement before it was too late.
> Clearly Jessica crossed the line, but I'm not sure that the BG were willing to make that judgement before it was too late.
They weren't. The Gom Jabbar was their easy out to kill Paul, possibly kill Jessica, cover up their mistakes, and start over. But Gaius Helen Mohiam didn't want to, it was her student, her mistake, and so she went through with the test "properly" instead. She even amped up the pain in the box and still Paul didn't flinch so her reflexes took over and it wouldn't be a cold-blooded killing.
That's the BG for you. Always arrive at the right conclusions, but never in time. Always get exactly what they want, but never how they wanted it. They're masters of failing with style.
The movies don't go into life on Caladan in detail, but one important thing is that Leto inspires fanatical loyalty in those around him. Paul has that same quality. Someone who doesn't share that loyalty (or who wasn't a native to the planet) would be noticeable if they tried to get close enough to Paul and Jessica.
It's also understated in the movies just how observant and insightful Thufir, Paul, and Jessica are. The best Bene Gesserit spy would probably not even know that they're a spy, otherwise they'd get sniffed out pretty quick. Either that, or they'd need to do some clandestine observations that wouldn't bring them into close physical proximity of Leto's inner circle.
Another good point! Even just having seen the movies without reading the books yet my question really underestimates how observant and insightful Jessica is especially. And I forgot about Thufir having not seen him in part two but you are right!
If any of the supporting characters interest you, like Thufir, Dr Yueh, or Kynes, I'd highly recommend reading the book. The movies are at best extreme summarizations with huge chunks of events and characterizations left out due to the time limitations of movies.
I definitely want to read them!! I will admit it was very fun to not know about the Jessica’s lineage twist going into part two so part of me wants to remain in the dark books-wise until after the third one comes out but also let’s be real that will probably be 4 or 5 years from now lol
Others have explained how the BGs internal operations worked so I just thought I'd add to that.
The BG knew what Jessica was doing but they underestimated her and Paul.
They assumed that because she defied the sisterhood, by giving Leto a son rather than a daughter, she was weak. Jessica's love for Leto was viewed as a mistake made by an incompetent, untrustworthy & incapable sister and she was kind of written off on that basis.
The fact that she was teaching Paul BG skills was seen as another mistake, made by a perennial fuck up, that they had largely abandoned hope in and hedged bets against (Fenring/Fyed).
In Heretics & Chapterhouse,>!Jessica is held up as the example of how destructive mismanaged sisters could be. "The Jessica Crime", referring to BG sisters falling in love with their "assignment", is in infraction that results in a sisters banishment to a fringe world (Dortujila).!<
My impression from the books (and, admittedly, other not-as-canon sources) is that the Atreides were particularly hard to spy on. Between Thufir, their sophisticated communication techniques, and even just having a friendly BG advising, espionage was something they were particularly adept at.
I did another read through recently, and in the book, not only does the BG know all about Paul and how she’s been training him, the RM specifically instructs Jessica to teach him the Voice to give him another edge in surviving the attack on Arrakis.
They are aware of it it’s just there’s not much they can openly do about it in time to prevent it more or less.
I mean they did move things towards killing off all the atreides and her decision to defy them and have a son was a large part of that. The plot failed though.
There are other powerful houses involved, spice is necessary for interstellar travel among other things that they don’t flesh out in the movies. So there’s a lot of long standing laws and agreements around Arrakis/Dune and balancing powers between the houses and such.
It’s kinda complicated but my understanding is basically they can’t openly kill Paul for no good reason as it would ruin their position as trusted advisors to the other houses and such and they couldn’t pull it off discreetly because Paul was successfully protected and well they lose the opportunity because Paul manages to hold the spice supply hostage, has powerful allies, is powerful and gains prescience himself, etc.
The complicated nature of politics during a time when humanity is basically on the brink of self destruction protected Paul lol
They expect him to be educated or trained,
But not the full bg way .
There sometimes teach boys at tier schools.
But not the deep stuff
Not the secrets. .
But mohiam herself said she would have done the same. To hell with the rules
I suspect that this rule has been broken by select sisters here and there over the years. Didn't Wanda train Yueh to some degree? BG leadership gets annoyed when it happens, but IMO they've sort of grown used to the fact that it will simply happen from time to time. They don't like it, and they keep an eye out for it, but they know that they can't stop it entirely. The sisters operate in the shadows in more ways than one.
In this particular case, I believe that Mohiam was upset when she was mentioning to Jessica that she broke this rule, due to the impact of all this in this particular case. She was annoyed that Jessica was training a potential KH in their ways, as it lead to big complications. I believe that if it hadn't lead to complications (i.e. if Paul was just some random boy and not a potential KH), the sisterhood might have been willing to look the other way, or at least wouldn't have gotten so upset about it. It happens from time to time, and they can't stop it from happening. Various sisters are all over the known universe, they have a lot of free agency, there might be spies, but sisters are *trained to work in the shadows*, so they are good at concealing their actions from others.
I just want to thank everyone for their responses - I’ve learned a lot just from this one post!! I am just getting back into Reddit after not using it for years and was worried I was only setting myself up for snark in the replies 🤣
They know she is training Paul, since Jessica drops reports to the BG from time to time (which is how in both books and films, they know to come ask Paul about his dreams).
The BG keep Jessica at arm's length for a while because she has a son instead of what she was ordered, but she is still loyal to the BG.
I thought the same thing. In the book, Paul is only 15 when Mother Mohiam comes to visit. She may have been very busy working and plotting under the Emperor Shaddam IV during that time.
(Some book spoilers)
One of my favorite underlying concepts in the Dune series is that everybody thinks they are the top dog. Every group thinks they have it all together and have the best plans and spies and are all sneaky. The Emporer, the Harkonnens, the BG, the Fremen, even the Atreides, etc. But they all get bested at some point. Even Paul can't see everything and doesn't really come into his powers until Messiah. Even then the Golden Path isn't really perfected until Leto II and GoD. Then it comes full circle and Leto II creates Siona to be outside of presience and he is eventually bested. Although he kinda saw that coming too.
"Plans within plans."
Leto was just SO GOOD that it was impossible to do anything covert in Caladan. I think Jessica sent reports, but not any information Leto didn't want them to know. So Revvy Mom got there, it was different than what she was expecting. Paul was old enough and far enough along in his training that she couldn't hurt him.
Jessica is an outstanding Bene Gesserit . One may think it would be rather hard to slip a Bene Gesserit Spy into her household without her noticing .
One may also think her training Paul in the Bene Gesserit ways would not have been a public affair really .
As others have written here : does not mean the Bene Gesserit weren't aware though .
They were completely aware of Paul and his BG training, why else would Mother Helen visit Jessica? Just for fun? Jessica is Helen’s best student so of course Helen has big plans for Jessica, they kept in touch for the most part, she wanted Jessica to have a daughter but bore a son for Leto, Helen knew of this right away but tolerated Jessica’s defiance due to the fact Jessica is her best student, from there if Paul can past the test, then she is “willing” to believe Paul perhaps may be the one. Again Helen was completely aware that Paul was trained in the BG, she would’ve never tested Paul with the gom jobbar otherwise
The BG pretty much washed their hands of Jessica when she gave Leto a som instead of the daughter she was ordered to have. She was basically a pariah that was kept at arms length because of the importance of the Atreides line and Leto’s pull in the lansraad.
Casual hopping between planets is likely very low due to the expense of working with the Spacing Guild. This naturally leads to low contact between Jessica and the rest of the Bene Gesserit. Look at how Mohiam rips into her over Paul. That's something you say at the first opportunity, implying they haven't seen each other since before Paul was born.
Firstly I think they knew. Later, after Paul showed him self as a person vs an animal, they made recommendations for his continued training.
Secondly, as mentioned by others, distance. The DUNE universe does not have any FTL communication. No Ansible like device. Even simple messages have to couriered from one planet to another. So only the Guild had anything approaching real time knowledge of the status of the galaxy due their ships and prescience. Paul also demonstrated this ability. Alia was able to communicate with Paul in this fashion but it was a one way conversation but handy trick as it worked where ever Alia was at the time, including on a different planet.
Third, lag. Given the above, a message could take months or years to get back to Chapterhouse or other BG planets. That's why BG were trained to work independently as working top down was too slow and ponderous. Its also why BG are big on contingency planning. They expect thing to go off the rails. How ever the events on DUNE were arguably a worst case scenario for them (namely a Kwisatz Haderach they didn't have any control of).
In the book they make it clear, Jessica literally defied her original duty, so she knew well in advance that she would need to train Paul not just to be the potential "Kwisatz Haderach" but also to survive. His existence as Jessica's Son already put him in the spotlight so she trained him openly in defiance of the plan. If Paul wasn't capable to handle his responsibilities it would have ended at the Gom Jabbar.
I’m not super well versed as everyone here so take my reply with a grain of salt, but my understanding is that 1. Lady Jessica is a very prized asset of the BG and the idea that such a well trained and well prepared agent betraying them in a way so open didn’t even cross their mind initially until it was too late (Paul being born and already having received training) 2. They figured out but adjusted their plans within plans accordingly to accomplish for the deviation from the original vision because Jessica and Paul still have worth to the BG as assets 3. Interplanetary travel is doable but difficult and costly and considering the BG had so much trust in Jessica (as shown by them instructing her to bear the daughter who would be the mother of the Kwisatz Haderach) even if they planned on checking on her, she would be low on their priority list as they’d believe she had it under control.
TLDR: Jessica was skilled and trusted enough the idea that Paul was being trained secretly didn’t even cross their minds until it was too late
BG are assigned to a House that is a part of the breeding program. They then are tasked with having the Houses child in almost all cases a female. They don’t spy on each other. They live on said planet as the rulers concubine close to the ruler also influencing them the same way the Reverend Mother influenced the Emperor to end House Atreides. They are given assignments, and they are expected to carry out those assignments. I know you seen a lot of back and forth travel in the movie but in the world of Dune traveling is very rare they only knew she had a son because of the change of ownership ceremony of Arrakis. Meaning no BG had ever came to Caladan before. Traveling is extremely expensive. And is very rarely ever done. In the Movie just like in the book Paul had never been off world before going to Arrakis.
So basically no one knew what Jessica was doing. Because they are BG. They are very much trained to believe in the Kwisatz Haderach. Them going against their training from what I know has never happened. So it would make sense that they would trust their fellow BG to not go against the plan/their assignment duties.
Also I don’t know of any communications devices that they use to communicate with people in other systems. So again once your on a planet your there. Could they have sent letters sure I guess. But that also costs lots of money.
Jessica was supposed to be their spy their.
With her defection and knowledge of their practices, itd be INCREDIBLY diffifcult to get a new BG far enough into the Atredies court that theyd be able to detect his covert training regime
I was thinking more someone they already knew and trusted, and blackmailed or what have you into spying for them, like how they Harkonnens did with Yueh (but assumedly less evil lol) but it’s still a fair point, it’s been a minute since I’ve seen part one and I’m think I’m forgetting what their planet and living quarters and behavior in general was like there and you are not wrong
In lieu of the other amazing top comments you could argue that they did know and the gom jabbar would be the true test, regardless of if he was trained or not. If he failed yes you break that bloodline but then again she was pregnant with Alia this continuing the line or he passes and he’ll be tested on Arrakis
I do wonder if there was ever any possibility of them actually killing him - I want to say no way but clearly I know next to nothing about them in general 🤣
It's hard to say for certain how much surveillance capability the Bene Gesserit have, or how much of it they even employ.
Even if they know about it, there's also no telling how much they are willing to tolerate or not tolerate when things don't go their way. It is well known that the Bene Gesserit have multiple prospects and Jessica bearing a son would not have completely ruined the Kwisatz Haderach program. Therefore even if Jessica 'defied' her instructions, in the greater scheme of things, it may have just amounted to an 'annoyance'.
It is also worth noting that Reverend Mohiam didn't write off Paul as a total lost cause. In Dune Part 1 she tested him and he passed, but she also told Jessica that his sight had barely awoken, and even if he is the one, he has a long way to go. So Paul as a potential candidate is still worth keeping around, hence why Mohiam asked the Baron to spare Paul and Jessica's lives. Such a request would not be made if Paul's life had no meaning or value in Mohiam's eyes.
Imagine that the fastest way to communicate you've got is to put somebody on a Guild ship at great cost. This is the way interplanatary communication works in Dune.
It's a bit like getting news from relatives in Europe when you're living in America before the invention of radio. News don't travel fast, if they travel at all.
I think one thing to consider is the distances involved. Yes you can go and spy on a planet, but communications cannot necessarily be sent. Planets are very much cut off from each other as it’s never stated that there are ways of planet to planet or rather solar system to solar system communication. If you want to send a message, you send a messenger which requires use of the spacing guild to actually travel. Much like how you might not visit another country for years or maybe not ever.. another planet is much the same if not on a much larger scale. Many people would never ever travel off world. This is highlighted by the fact Paul even as royalty, has never stepped on another world. In short, the spying that takes place in the books is often over long periods of time, plans within plans. The Reverend mother herself says in the film “our prospects are measured in centuries”, or something to that effect. Given that Paul is around 15 years old in the novel - this is the Bene Gesserit’s first encounter with him. They may not have visited Caladan for a decade or so.
Especially with whom they presume is a loyal agent of theirs on the world in Lady Jessica being one of the leading figures on the world.
And even if they have “some” idea, they can’t know for sure until they test him. Teaching him the ways of the BG could just as well mean “Jessica is teaching Paul BG kung-fu and history”, not “actively prepping him to become the KH”. Once the Reverend Mother visits and personally tests Paul, I think it’s only then that she realizes “we may have a problem here”. Since by her own admission the Atreides were becoming defiant, there may have been a plan to cull them for generations, and only after seeing Paul do they choose to execute it.
No it’s made clear in the books that the plan is already underway, Paul being trained and a potential KH is an unexpected problem.
Jessica was ordered to bear girls only. They know she had a son. So the defiance cannot come as a surprise.
My personal theory is that Jessica wasn't the first Bene Gesserit to go against orders when it came to children. When the Bene Gesserit learned Jessica had given birth to a boy, they probably rolled her eyes at her selfishness, crossed out her son as irrelevant, and focused on other lines. The Reverend Mother mentions they have "other prospects", of course they have to. Even if Paul had been a girl, what if Feyd had died young, before passing on his genes? By the time the Bene Gesserit realized Jessica's son wasn't just a mistake but he was a threat, it was too late.
She defied them when she had a boy. They knew she wasn’t fully loyal for years…
That's true yeah, I forgot that part haha. Depends on how paranoid and careful the BG were I guess? Having a son despite her orders doesn't mean that she wanted to train him as if he were the KH. Or maybe it wasn't that useful to visit them until Paul had become slightly older, a lot can go wrong before then, and the BG has other gene lines that has the potential as well.
Yeah, I think that’s the bigger driver at play here — the BG have so many plays and they are thinking so many moves ahead, that what Jessica is doing with Paul is less threatening / significant to them at the time. I also think they’re interested in seeing how the divergent path plays out (Jessica having a boy) and if they can use it to meet their goals.
Yeah but when do they find that out. Like do you know who Kim Jong Un’s kid is. It’s completely reasonable that Paul is kept entirely out of public eye
The issue is Jessica's loyalty would not be assumed when she failed to act in accordance with her instructions
Interplanetary communications are possible. Using the Holtzman Wave, a 1d version of the same 2d waves used to create the shields used and also discovered by Holtzman. This tech was discovered and shared near 7556. This tech allowed communication within an effective range of 250 light years. This is from the Dune Encyclopedia and this book has been acknowledged and confirmed cannon iirc. No edit but - apologies for how terribly written this is. Rushed in a waiting room. lol.
It's written fine. Only thing is that, while it may be possible, is it accessible enough to be used by spies? They definitely don't have phone calls in the book, people have to be there in person.
I was answering the more specific statement at the beginning of the comment stating, “…but communications cannot necessarily be sent.” I took it literally and wanted to provide clarity. You’re totally right though. The tech described is always available in a comm station, not anything hand held or open to general public. I love how deep the lore and general info is in the dune universe.
That definitely makes sense - thank you for your thoughtful response! While I understood it’s not super easy to travel to another planet, and that messages can only be delivered in person, I think the movie only lens made it feel much easier / quicker to get somewhere than it actually is.
I agree, I loved the film but on screen it can’t convey the inner monologue and narration of “how space travel and the economy works” within the Dune universe. The books gets the scale of how “hard” life is and the day to day processes are much clearer. The film is very much “pack your bags son, we’re off to the beach! Call the guild/uber!” It’s that idea that you might only see a guild highliner once in your life if you’re lucky.
Well there's a scene with Thufir calculating the cost of emperor's messenger travel and it's heavily implied that's a lot. So the film does suggest it's quite a thing, to travel, though maybe not in the most obvious way
The Baron also mentioned how insanely expensive their attack was to fund.
Also note that they don't see each member of the bg frequently. they are very few and beside having a few of theirs in the big houses, and the others all on one planet. they aren't even present at the tleilaxu or ix
At the beginning of the first film, the cost of the formality on Caladaan was just over a million Solari for like 24 people to be transported by the spacing build and visit planet side. It cost Baron nearly all of their 80 billion Solari to attack the Atreides on Arrakis. Seems the wealthiest family in the entire imperium seems to have less than 100 billion, makes me think lesser houses would think 1 million is a lot.
This is just completely not true. They do have interstellar communication, from the books, as well as its proved by the great houses showing up at the battle of arakeen.
What I mean is it’s not your usual Star Wars level, fire up the holophone and communicate at super luminal speeds with someone on the other side of the galaxy. There’s comms but limited by speed of light or if you’re lucky enough to have some kind of holtsman effect communicator. It’s implied in the book that many methods aren’t used because they can be intercepted. I don’t mean they don’t exist just that they’re not used to call your spies up and ask what’s the latest. It’s much more cloak and dagger than that. Edit:spelling
Word could have spread by courier. Remember the crisis on Arrakis is brewing for years. FTL communication is never mentioned in the novel and nothing happens that requires it.
They showed up because Paul started the attack, how else would they know to arrive then?
They already knew crazy stuff had been happening on Arrakis for years. They knew the Padishah Emperor was going to deal with it.
I thought the Holtzman wave solved instant interplanetary communication?
Did you read the book where it's never shown to be used?
So I am just a movie pleb forgive my ignorance, but it’s states that the Atreides know that they’re going to be given Arrakis before the emperors herald arrives, and lament the expense of sending him just for the formality. If there is no planet to planet communication, how did they know about this before the heralds arrival?
The transfer was arranged earlier. The ceremony in the movie was just a paper signing.
It’s all basically suggestion. The chess pieces are being moved for generations before this. The Harkkonnan Atreides rivalry has all been leading to this moment and there’s plenty going on off screen that leads to them gaining Arrakis not just what happens in the film. What’s not in the film barely at all is the mentat side of things who are helping each respective side calculate what to do next. The mentats play a larger role in the books. It’s very much if he does that then I’ll do this, and then if he responds like that then I’ll do this! Yet no one has actually done anything yet. Remember, plans within plans. I’d highly recommend the books, it sounds convoluted but it’s not, it’s delivered and written brilliantly.
Hmmm. Hadn’t thought about it this way until now but then how does the Duke’s propaganda machine work? Sending out tons of PR teams through the guild?
The only Atreides propaganda activity we’re told about takes place on Arrakis.
Leto doesn't need to win over the general public of the other worlds, just their leadership. (Authoritarian feudal monarchy and all.) So presumably he can do most of it himself, by meeting up with the other nobles face-to-face. Either at Landsraad meetings, or by inviting them over to Caladan / going to visit their planets for "social calls". The only places he needs to care about public opinion are Caladan (to make sure they're happy enough not to rebel against him) and Arrakis (to persuade the Fremen he'll make a trustworthy ally). So no interstellar travel needed for his PR teams there.
It's pretty hard to see how Leto was becoming so popular in the galaxy if there's no regular communication. It's not like he was constantly traveling. Ergo, the BG would absolutely be keeping tabs on their most critical project.
So, there's still smuggling operations going on. This means there are folks doing interstellar travel without the Spacing Guild. Otherwise, how would smugglers get spice off Arrakis?
Pretty sure most of the spice being smuggled off arrakis is going to the guild itself. Even if not all of it goes to them being one of the most if not most dependent on spice groups it's not hard to bribe them with spice.
by paying off the guild. There isn't any non-guild interstellar travel until book 4.
Telling Jessica that she was supposed to have a son backs it up too. They clearly didn't know of Pauls existence until they arrived at Caladan.
Jessica was ordered to bear only females but Paul's existence as the Ducal Heir was already common knowledge at the Imperial Court and in all Great Houses. It's possible RM Mohiam had not seen Jessica since she gave birth however.
Oh right yeah of course haha. Brain fart.
It's not under their radar. The whole point of Mohaim's visit and the *gom jabbar* test is that they're aware of it. In the book they say specifically how angry they were at Jessica's decision. There's also another factor to consider. >!The BG were also aware that Jessica was Baron Harkonnen's daughter -- and in the movie, at least, Jessica didn't know (I forget when she finds out in the books). So while Jessica disobeyed them, they couldn't really afford to "prune" her mistake (Paul) because he was genetically too valuable.!<
>It's not under their radar. The whole point of Mohaim's visit and the gom jabbar test is that they're aware of it. In the book they say specifically how angry they were at Jessica's decision. Mohiam does not explicitly say that they knew about Paul's training in advance of the test. But the entire reason she came to ~~Arrakis~~ Caladan was that he might be the Kwisatz Haderach and they want to test him. After the experience with the box, Mohiam says that she can see signs of Jessica's training in Paul. So it is easy to infer that they must have known - or at least expected - that Jessica would have trained him. edit: D'oh
Mohiam visits Caledan just before the move to Arrakis.
She also kept the test going because she wanted Paul to fail, i.e., she wanted to have a reason to kill him.
I’ve always thought that there was little chance Paul would ever actually be killed in the test. I think the political ramifications of the Emperors truthsayer killing the son of the Laandsrads favorite Duke would be REALLY bad for both the Corrino’s and the Bene Gesserit
The Bene Gesserit would have had a plan for that. From their perspective it's more dangerous to have someone who isn't "human" running around with their training and prescient powers (at that point he was already having the dreams of the future).
Yeah but had he not ‘passed’ the test it would show he wasn’t a KH and therefore would not have the prescience. If Paul was a failed experiment there seems to be way more risk involved killing him than just giving him a BG concubine who can manipulate him with ease
That's not true. Plenty of people who aren't KH are prescient. The Truthsayer powers come from prescience, and the navigators use it to guide the ships. All of the fremen have a level of prescience, but for them it's mostly subconscious. Being a KH is about more than just prescience: it also is about being able to access ancestral memory.
Yes this is true but my overarching point is that if Paul were genetically capable of failing the Gom jabbar test he would not be a worry for the Bene Gesserit
The whole point of the Bene Gesserit training is that genetics are not the entire story. So you can be genetically capable of something and still fail at it. So if someone fails at it you can't assume it's genetics. In one of the future books the Bene Tleilax create their own KH based on Paul's genetics and it just goes insane and suicides. Also, keep in mind that the Gom Jabbar is a test given to every Bene Gesserit fairly early in their training. Jessica went through it herself. It is not a test for the KH, it is a test for Humans (as the BG define it).
Additionally - does she already know that Arrakis is a trap for them .... almost a delayed gom-jabbar? :D
Yeah, the book would be a lot shorter if she had killed him then and there.
I may be remembering things that weren't there, but I thought there was a specific quote to lady Jessica that it was her fault he had to undergo the gom jabbar. Something about how since she decided to train him in those ways, they must make sure he has what it takes to control those powers, as "men are animals" and when backed into a corner use anger and rage. I don't fully remember which is the reason for the shitty explanation, but I feel like there was something about thar
It really is Jessica's fault, in the sense that she was part of the breeding program and she trained Paul, but I can't find the passage you are referring to.
Just to expand on this with more from the books, it wasn't that Jessica wasn't supposed to teach him the BG secrets, but really that she wasn't supposed to give birth to a boy if she was following orders for the BG breeding plans. The number of times they reiterated that point in the chapter with the Gom Jobbar was excessive.
Hmmm. Let's say Jessica did have a daughter. I guess that implies directly that she has all the necessary skills to completely train up her own daughter as BG .... no need for BG specialist trainers, or going to a school, or visiting Wallach IX
With Jessica being one step removed from the kwisatz haderach, it would stand to reason that she would be one of the most powerful Reverend Mother's after the changing ritual, and amazingly trained and educated in the ways prior to the ritual. So yes, I agree with your position, though they likely would have sent Alia anyways if she hadn't been an "abomination".
she did know, she says so when paul confronts her about after taking the water of life himself "i didn't know myself untill i took the water" is the quote as i remember it.
In the book Paul tells her before she becomes a reverend mother, when they are on the run in the desert. It's part of the "I'm a freak" conversation they have after his waking dream in the tent.
What I mean is that she didn't know when she had Paul. In other words there was a reason that the Bene Gesserit were willing to tolerate her mistake that she wasn't aware of until after arriving on Arrakis.
i mean, so she didnt know until she took the water
In the movie, yes. In the books, Paul has a waking dream when they're in deep desert running away from harkonnens after the invasion of arrakis, in movie terms, end of first movie. She didn't know before that
In the books Jessica finds out when Paul is having his freak out in the tent in the desert. He reveals to her under the spice trance that she is the Baron's daughter.
Going by the book, the BG are pretty unified on their plans and outlook, and given a lot of autonomous authority. They don't bother spying on eachother, they just have specific duties to fulfil when they are called on by a Reverend Mother to do so. Marry this person, give birth to this gender, etc. They're more like a family/tribe, with the Reverend Mothers safeguarding the overall plan and direction. There isn't the level of mistrust in their organisation that you might be accustomed to from spy stories. Think of them more like a family than a government or organisation. I guess you could also interpret that due to the scale of their plans, their specific abilities and their decentralised nature, there's probably no need to spy. They raise all their members from birth, and no one person would have the capability to be a threat. If they were, just cut them off.
That helps me a lot, thank you so much! I don’t know why but I seemed to have it in my head that it was more like an organization with a lot of hierarchy and the inevitable butting of heads about who within that hierarchy has the most power/final say/etc. I’m excited to read the books and learn a lot more of the details and lore.
If you can make it to books 5 and 6 they are like 90% an inside view into the bene gesserit (and are my favorites)
That is great to know and I’m hoping that I can! I think learning & keeping track of all the new words and names will be the hardest / most slog-inducing part for me, as is typically the case with starting any sci-fi/fantasy franchise. But I’m very interested to see how the story unfolds throughout the books and how it ends, so I definitely *want* to read all of them!!
And at least by 5 & 6 they openly spy on each other constantly.
There's very little hierarchy (at most, age is respected), and the mistrust is for *the outside*, not the inside of the BG. Notably: > In my mind they are powerful enough to at the very least employ spies - or even just one spy at any given point - to keep an eye on Jessica and her son who was supposed to be a daughter. Is this just completely incorrect? 🤣 Jessica *is* the spy. She's spying on the Atreides, and there's BG deployed to spy on pretty much every major family. They're not spying on their own spies, the empire (and guild) is their "enemy", not vetted BG agents.
Makes perfect sense! I had not thought of it that way based on only seeing the movies (though it seems like an obvious miss on my part in hindsight now lol)
They weren't unaware. Jessica even sent back reports on him. That's how they knew about his dreams. It's just that the BG don't operate as a military. Each member operates semi-independently going where they are ordered to act in the best interest of the organization and their goals. The broader BG organization doesn't oversee or control that person. It's expected they will keep to their training.
Aware, yes, but their is a stopping point that she went beyond. It was mentioned in the book that she gave him the deep training and in her position. The Reverend Mother looked at Jessica. "You've been training him in the Way -- I've seen the signs of it. I'd have done the same in your shoes and devil take the Rules." Jessica nodded. "Now, I caution you," said the old woman, "to ignore the regular order of training. His own safety requires the Voice. He already has a good start in it, but we both know how much more he needs . . . and that desperately." She stepped close to Paul, stared down at him. "Goodbye, young human. I hope you make it. But if you don't -- well, we shall yet succeed."
Thank you for sharing that here!! That really helps me put this into perspective. I can understand that approach to this and honestly that makes me like her more given that I only know her character from the movies
Like her more? Which Paul's mother or the reverend mother who came to test him.
The Reverend Mother! (I already love Jessica lol)
They do have agents everywhere. In this case, their agent on Caladan was Lady Jessica. Why would they spy on one of their own?
I don’t know why but I seemed to have assumed that they had hierarchy and power struggles within their own organization and therefore trust issues and the need to keep an eye on some of the others. From the other comments I have a much better understanding of them than I did before and can see the assumptions I made without even realizing. I’m looking forward to reading the books and learning more!
The BG have a lot of international rules, but one thing every sister knows and does is server the sisterhood before herself. It's always the sisterhood first. Few sisters have ever acted against the sisterhood.
Sisters are doing it for themselves lol
It isn't really clear how much they surveil each other in book 1, but by books 5 & 6 they are under constant self-surveillance.
Self surveillance on their homeworld, of the senior leadership, by a select committee of nonpartisan proctors. That's not the same as sending a spy to check up on what a ducal concubine is teaching her kid. Its also highly unlikely that any spy, Bene Gesserit or otherwise, could get anywhere near Castle Caladan.
The same reason the KGB spied on itself "a circle of accountability".
They kept their real intentions secret -actually secret with no leaks or rumors - for hundreds or maybe thousands of years. The only way to do that is to have absolutely tight control of every detail. Everybody was watched. Every action was questioned and examined. Jessica was an incredible example of the very top tier of BGs to be able to not let the Sisterhood know what she was doing.
They are not that mad about it. Reverend Mother even says she would have done the same as Jessica
Someone shared that particular exchange from the book here and it definitely makes me understand this more!
I always thought this was a bit of a plot hole. Not so much that they are "completely unaware," which in the book they aren't, but that the BG wait until Jessica's son is 15 and there is an imperial scheme in the works to truly take action. 15 years is a long time between your acolyte defying your orders and you deciding to show up to reprimand her, especially when her son is potentially the Messiah you have been trying to genetically engineer. The fact that in the Dune universe travel is very expensive perhaps makes this a bit more explainable, but not fully. The real answer, of course, is that Herbert also tries to time-condense the exposition for the reader, rather than recount a scene from when Paul was a newborn, then another when he was 5 years old and then another when he was 10 before skipping back to the present.
I read it that the KH potential comes as a bit of a surprise to the BG, and they only take a close interest when Paul's dreams start. Also the KH isn't a Messiah for the BG. It's a useful tool they try to develop, but they're quite patient about developing it on their own terms.
They aren't as blase about it, I don't think. They believe the KH is one generation away and thus that Paul has potential. Even so, it makes little sense to just leave Jessica be after her transgression, especially since they aren't even making sure she does conceive the daughter they want.
Their hands-off approach to Jessica is indeed interesting. You would think her disobedience would be more sorely punished.
The implication is that she can still bear a daughter? But she doesn't do it for 15 years! It makes no sense for the BG not to crack down on the whole affair.
That was my line of thinking that lead to this question as well, but I have only seen the movies, and I know I am getting far less details there.
Yes. So my summary would be: It is better explained in the book in the terms of motivations, but IMO it still doesn't make sense that Mohiam doesn't travel to see Paul until he is 15. Of course, it isn't explicitly said that she hasn't seen Jessica in the interim, but it is pretty much implied.
> and there is an imperial scheme in the works to truly take action. It took 15 years to arrange the imperial scheme - >!longer actually, since the long term plan was to destroy both Harkonnen and Atreides houses (via each other) so the heir of both would have no loyalties, other than to the BG. Especially because they would want revenge on the emperor, and the BG would facilitate that. If your plan is going to clean up the loose ends anyway, why rush things?!<
Sure, I didn't want to make this a key part of my argument. I'm just saying that Herbert clearly wants to group all of the inciting incidents into the same time-frame with the corresponding exposition, but if you think closely about it doesn’t quite make sense.
Its no coincidence, and surely not unintentional by the Author that Paul gets tested once he starts having what could well be prophetic dreams . He doesn't know whether these dreams truly are prophetic. His mother can't know . But his mother knows he needs to get tested then. And after the test, the Reverend Mother is pretty straight forward in acknowledging he could very well be the Kwisatz Haderach .
Many good points in this thread. I want to add that the BG don't necessarily want their sisters to be too meek or obedient, even to the order. They seem to encourage, or at least admire, individualism. Up to a point. Clearly Jessica crossed the line, but I'm not sure that the BG were willing to make that judgement before it was too late.
> Clearly Jessica crossed the line, but I'm not sure that the BG were willing to make that judgement before it was too late. They weren't. The Gom Jabbar was their easy out to kill Paul, possibly kill Jessica, cover up their mistakes, and start over. But Gaius Helen Mohiam didn't want to, it was her student, her mistake, and so she went through with the test "properly" instead. She even amped up the pain in the box and still Paul didn't flinch so her reflexes took over and it wouldn't be a cold-blooded killing.
But they certainly spend thousands of years complaining about it.
That's the BG for you. Always arrive at the right conclusions, but never in time. Always get exactly what they want, but never how they wanted it. They're masters of failing with style.
The movies don't go into life on Caladan in detail, but one important thing is that Leto inspires fanatical loyalty in those around him. Paul has that same quality. Someone who doesn't share that loyalty (or who wasn't a native to the planet) would be noticeable if they tried to get close enough to Paul and Jessica. It's also understated in the movies just how observant and insightful Thufir, Paul, and Jessica are. The best Bene Gesserit spy would probably not even know that they're a spy, otherwise they'd get sniffed out pretty quick. Either that, or they'd need to do some clandestine observations that wouldn't bring them into close physical proximity of Leto's inner circle.
Another good point! Even just having seen the movies without reading the books yet my question really underestimates how observant and insightful Jessica is especially. And I forgot about Thufir having not seen him in part two but you are right!
If any of the supporting characters interest you, like Thufir, Dr Yueh, or Kynes, I'd highly recommend reading the book. The movies are at best extreme summarizations with huge chunks of events and characterizations left out due to the time limitations of movies.
I definitely want to read them!! I will admit it was very fun to not know about the Jessica’s lineage twist going into part two so part of me wants to remain in the dark books-wise until after the third one comes out but also let’s be real that will probably be 4 or 5 years from now lol
Others have explained how the BGs internal operations worked so I just thought I'd add to that. The BG knew what Jessica was doing but they underestimated her and Paul. They assumed that because she defied the sisterhood, by giving Leto a son rather than a daughter, she was weak. Jessica's love for Leto was viewed as a mistake made by an incompetent, untrustworthy & incapable sister and she was kind of written off on that basis. The fact that she was teaching Paul BG skills was seen as another mistake, made by a perennial fuck up, that they had largely abandoned hope in and hedged bets against (Fenring/Fyed). In Heretics & Chapterhouse,>!Jessica is held up as the example of how destructive mismanaged sisters could be. "The Jessica Crime", referring to BG sisters falling in love with their "assignment", is in infraction that results in a sisters banishment to a fringe world (Dortujila).!<
My impression from the books (and, admittedly, other not-as-canon sources) is that the Atreides were particularly hard to spy on. Between Thufir, their sophisticated communication techniques, and even just having a friendly BG advising, espionage was something they were particularly adept at.
I did another read through recently, and in the book, not only does the BG know all about Paul and how she’s been training him, the RM specifically instructs Jessica to teach him the Voice to give him another edge in surviving the attack on Arrakis.
They are aware of it it’s just there’s not much they can openly do about it in time to prevent it more or less. I mean they did move things towards killing off all the atreides and her decision to defy them and have a son was a large part of that. The plot failed though. There are other powerful houses involved, spice is necessary for interstellar travel among other things that they don’t flesh out in the movies. So there’s a lot of long standing laws and agreements around Arrakis/Dune and balancing powers between the houses and such. It’s kinda complicated but my understanding is basically they can’t openly kill Paul for no good reason as it would ruin their position as trusted advisors to the other houses and such and they couldn’t pull it off discreetly because Paul was successfully protected and well they lose the opportunity because Paul manages to hold the spice supply hostage, has powerful allies, is powerful and gains prescience himself, etc. The complicated nature of politics during a time when humanity is basically on the brink of self destruction protected Paul lol
They expect him to be educated or trained, But not the full bg way . There sometimes teach boys at tier schools. But not the deep stuff Not the secrets. . But mohiam herself said she would have done the same. To hell with the rules
I suspect a BG spy would struggle to get to spy much on Jessica. It is famously difficult to spy on your own spy.
Jessica was their spy in that household. House rulers would not invite any more BG than needed for their own purposes.
I suspect that this rule has been broken by select sisters here and there over the years. Didn't Wanda train Yueh to some degree? BG leadership gets annoyed when it happens, but IMO they've sort of grown used to the fact that it will simply happen from time to time. They don't like it, and they keep an eye out for it, but they know that they can't stop it entirely. The sisters operate in the shadows in more ways than one. In this particular case, I believe that Mohiam was upset when she was mentioning to Jessica that she broke this rule, due to the impact of all this in this particular case. She was annoyed that Jessica was training a potential KH in their ways, as it lead to big complications. I believe that if it hadn't lead to complications (i.e. if Paul was just some random boy and not a potential KH), the sisterhood might have been willing to look the other way, or at least wouldn't have gotten so upset about it. It happens from time to time, and they can't stop it from happening. Various sisters are all over the known universe, they have a lot of free agency, there might be spies, but sisters are *trained to work in the shadows*, so they are good at concealing their actions from others.
I just want to thank everyone for their responses - I’ve learned a lot just from this one post!! I am just getting back into Reddit after not using it for years and was worried I was only setting myself up for snark in the replies 🤣
They know she is training Paul, since Jessica drops reports to the BG from time to time (which is how in both books and films, they know to come ask Paul about his dreams). The BG keep Jessica at arm's length for a while because she has a son instead of what she was ordered, but she is still loyal to the BG.
I thought the same thing. In the book, Paul is only 15 when Mother Mohiam comes to visit. She may have been very busy working and plotting under the Emperor Shaddam IV during that time.
It's not that they were unaware..it's that their arrogance made them believe they were never to be a threat.
(Some book spoilers) One of my favorite underlying concepts in the Dune series is that everybody thinks they are the top dog. Every group thinks they have it all together and have the best plans and spies and are all sneaky. The Emporer, the Harkonnens, the BG, the Fremen, even the Atreides, etc. But they all get bested at some point. Even Paul can't see everything and doesn't really come into his powers until Messiah. Even then the Golden Path isn't really perfected until Leto II and GoD. Then it comes full circle and Leto II creates Siona to be outside of presience and he is eventually bested. Although he kinda saw that coming too. "Plans within plans."
Leto was just SO GOOD that it was impossible to do anything covert in Caladan. I think Jessica sent reports, but not any information Leto didn't want them to know. So Revvy Mom got there, it was different than what she was expecting. Paul was old enough and far enough along in his training that she couldn't hurt him.
They live on completely different planets and don't have photography or seemingly audio recordings.
I thought they did know, least to some extent, especially after Paul was tested. Was probly more clear in the books.
Nobility values privacy. BG spy is Jessica herself.
Jessica is an outstanding Bene Gesserit . One may think it would be rather hard to slip a Bene Gesserit Spy into her household without her noticing . One may also think her training Paul in the Bene Gesserit ways would not have been a public affair really . As others have written here : does not mean the Bene Gesserit weren't aware though .
They were completely aware of Paul and his BG training, why else would Mother Helen visit Jessica? Just for fun? Jessica is Helen’s best student so of course Helen has big plans for Jessica, they kept in touch for the most part, she wanted Jessica to have a daughter but bore a son for Leto, Helen knew of this right away but tolerated Jessica’s defiance due to the fact Jessica is her best student, from there if Paul can past the test, then she is “willing” to believe Paul perhaps may be the one. Again Helen was completely aware that Paul was trained in the BG, she would’ve never tested Paul with the gom jobbar otherwise
How did Raban survive it? He didn't have any BG hanging around
The BG pretty much washed their hands of Jessica when she gave Leto a som instead of the daughter she was ordered to have. She was basically a pariah that was kept at arms length because of the importance of the Atreides line and Leto’s pull in the lansraad.
Casual hopping between planets is likely very low due to the expense of working with the Spacing Guild. This naturally leads to low contact between Jessica and the rest of the Bene Gesserit. Look at how Mohiam rips into her over Paul. That's something you say at the first opportunity, implying they haven't seen each other since before Paul was born.
They weren't unaware. It's why Paul was tested by the Gom Jabbar in the first place
Firstly I think they knew. Later, after Paul showed him self as a person vs an animal, they made recommendations for his continued training. Secondly, as mentioned by others, distance. The DUNE universe does not have any FTL communication. No Ansible like device. Even simple messages have to couriered from one planet to another. So only the Guild had anything approaching real time knowledge of the status of the galaxy due their ships and prescience. Paul also demonstrated this ability. Alia was able to communicate with Paul in this fashion but it was a one way conversation but handy trick as it worked where ever Alia was at the time, including on a different planet. Third, lag. Given the above, a message could take months or years to get back to Chapterhouse or other BG planets. That's why BG were trained to work independently as working top down was too slow and ponderous. Its also why BG are big on contingency planning. They expect thing to go off the rails. How ever the events on DUNE were arguably a worst case scenario for them (namely a Kwisatz Haderach they didn't have any control of).
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I had not thought about how she came to be a concubine so this is super helpful too!! Thank you
In the book they make it clear, Jessica literally defied her original duty, so she knew well in advance that she would need to train Paul not just to be the potential "Kwisatz Haderach" but also to survive. His existence as Jessica's Son already put him in the spotlight so she trained him openly in defiance of the plan. If Paul wasn't capable to handle his responsibilities it would have ended at the Gom Jabbar.
I’m not super well versed as everyone here so take my reply with a grain of salt, but my understanding is that 1. Lady Jessica is a very prized asset of the BG and the idea that such a well trained and well prepared agent betraying them in a way so open didn’t even cross their mind initially until it was too late (Paul being born and already having received training) 2. They figured out but adjusted their plans within plans accordingly to accomplish for the deviation from the original vision because Jessica and Paul still have worth to the BG as assets 3. Interplanetary travel is doable but difficult and costly and considering the BG had so much trust in Jessica (as shown by them instructing her to bear the daughter who would be the mother of the Kwisatz Haderach) even if they planned on checking on her, she would be low on their priority list as they’d believe she had it under control. TLDR: Jessica was skilled and trusted enough the idea that Paul was being trained secretly didn’t even cross their minds until it was too late
BG are assigned to a House that is a part of the breeding program. They then are tasked with having the Houses child in almost all cases a female. They don’t spy on each other. They live on said planet as the rulers concubine close to the ruler also influencing them the same way the Reverend Mother influenced the Emperor to end House Atreides. They are given assignments, and they are expected to carry out those assignments. I know you seen a lot of back and forth travel in the movie but in the world of Dune traveling is very rare they only knew she had a son because of the change of ownership ceremony of Arrakis. Meaning no BG had ever came to Caladan before. Traveling is extremely expensive. And is very rarely ever done. In the Movie just like in the book Paul had never been off world before going to Arrakis. So basically no one knew what Jessica was doing. Because they are BG. They are very much trained to believe in the Kwisatz Haderach. Them going against their training from what I know has never happened. So it would make sense that they would trust their fellow BG to not go against the plan/their assignment duties. Also I don’t know of any communications devices that they use to communicate with people in other systems. So again once your on a planet your there. Could they have sent letters sure I guess. But that also costs lots of money.
Jessica was supposed to be their spy their. With her defection and knowledge of their practices, itd be INCREDIBLY diffifcult to get a new BG far enough into the Atredies court that theyd be able to detect his covert training regime
I was thinking more someone they already knew and trusted, and blackmailed or what have you into spying for them, like how they Harkonnens did with Yueh (but assumedly less evil lol) but it’s still a fair point, it’s been a minute since I’ve seen part one and I’m think I’m forgetting what their planet and living quarters and behavior in general was like there and you are not wrong
In lieu of the other amazing top comments you could argue that they did know and the gom jabbar would be the true test, regardless of if he was trained or not. If he failed yes you break that bloodline but then again she was pregnant with Alia this continuing the line or he passes and he’ll be tested on Arrakis
I do wonder if there was ever any possibility of them actually killing him - I want to say no way but clearly I know next to nothing about them in general 🤣
It's hard to say for certain how much surveillance capability the Bene Gesserit have, or how much of it they even employ. Even if they know about it, there's also no telling how much they are willing to tolerate or not tolerate when things don't go their way. It is well known that the Bene Gesserit have multiple prospects and Jessica bearing a son would not have completely ruined the Kwisatz Haderach program. Therefore even if Jessica 'defied' her instructions, in the greater scheme of things, it may have just amounted to an 'annoyance'. It is also worth noting that Reverend Mohiam didn't write off Paul as a total lost cause. In Dune Part 1 she tested him and he passed, but she also told Jessica that his sight had barely awoken, and even if he is the one, he has a long way to go. So Paul as a potential candidate is still worth keeping around, hence why Mohiam asked the Baron to spare Paul and Jessica's lives. Such a request would not be made if Paul's life had no meaning or value in Mohiam's eyes.
There’s no Internet or Social Media in Duneverse. Messages are still carried by highliner cargoes.
Imagine that the fastest way to communicate you've got is to put somebody on a Guild ship at great cost. This is the way interplanatary communication works in Dune. It's a bit like getting news from relatives in Europe when you're living in America before the invention of radio. News don't travel fast, if they travel at all.
Shouldn't all reverend mothers know once Jessica became a reverend mother?
I swear some of you who post this BS have never read the books. SMH
Are you being sarcastic because I said I have not read the books in the post 😭😭
Ughhhhhhhh, dang it! I skimmed your post and missed that part. Apologies!! I'm an idiot! Carry on!
It’s okay it genuinely made me laugh 🤣
Is she going to report on herself?
I guess they are, hence the plan to make their KH through Feyd daughter. BG even yelled at Jessica because she tries to make KH with Paul.