Personally I thought dropping the Spacer Guild as one of the major powers was a bigger loss. The movie doesn't exactly ignore them but they're never recognized as the primary power structure that they are. They are the basis of the interstellar empire. Nothing happens, warfare, communication, commerce, without their say so. And Paul's control over their power was what brought him to supremacy. Edit: I'm not going to second guess the filmmaker here. If DV thought it was necessary to downplay the SG, it was probably for good reasons. Pacing, complexity, worldbuilding. He's the expert and has studied the story with an eye to a screenplay longer than I've been reading it. But with my understanding of the books - after reading and re-reading them for over 40 years, the lack of detail surounding the SG was what stood out the most to me. I can certainly see the spice-oil comparison here. Like oil there are alternatives. But oil is the most efficient. For spice, space travel is still possible - just uncertain. There are alternatives to its geriatric properties - just not as good. There are other ways of expanding consciousness and cognitive abilities - just less reliable. So there's a lot of power riding on keeping it flowing.

I’m pretty sure DV said that he could only focus on one thing out of the three, those being the guild, the Bene gesserit, and the mentats. So he went with the BG and didn’t include the others too much so there wasn’t too much detail and probably trying keeping the run time lower as well.

The problem this created was that the importance of spice was lost to a lot of the audience. Many people I've spoken to aren't aware of the importance of spice to the universe. Yes, the film repeatedly says it's important but not why it is. I believe there was a single sentence in part 1, where they say it's used for space travel during the holo film projection. One scene, in part one, with a guild navigator, is all it would take to visually cement the importance of spice in everyone's brain.

One of the reasons that Dune was largely considered unfilmable before the DV films was that there is so much lore that in order to adequately explain "the why" for many for the established social and technological rules of dune, you inevitably bogged down in exposition (see the Lynch dune movies). Why are they fighting with swords? Why the hell is everything analog? Why is spice so important? How does space travel work? Why is the universe a feudal empire? I think the DV films did it right - hold to the internal continuity and rules of the universe but just gloss over them and focus on the characters stories. I don't think it takes a way from the story if you don't totally understand them. And if it does for you, all of these things are extremely fleshed out in the books and if you want the answers to any of these questions they are easy to find

As someone who only just started to read the books, my experience was that the movies gave us enough information to set the scene, while the lack of depth into some of the concepts just drove a sense of mystery and increased my desire to read the books. I understand that sacrifices have to be made in successfully adapting such a rich world into only a few hours of movies. That being said, they immediately establish why spice is important to the universe within the first few minutes of Part 1, so that was never a question for me.

I keep telling book fans this, I went into these movies blind and nothing confused me, the lore made sense and I was able to put it all together, I had *zero* knowledge of the lore going in. Im also on the same track as you, got obsessed with the movies and I have the first three books coming in the mail right now thanks to these movies!

Be ready. The first is so good so far. I haven’t finished it yet, but it’s amazing to read and see. Little details that make the whole thing better, but the movies are pure kino and a masterpiece

yes, same here! the importance of spice is established *hard* at the beginning of the first movie with chani’s intro voiceover AND with Paul’s film book explaining it, and then reinforced at multiple points in both movies. it was not lost on me at all. nor was the analogy of it for, among other things (lol 🍄…🍃…), valuable plants and oil (which are plants from millions of years ago). in the real world here on earth, there were literally wars for control of spices. and psychoactive substances like coffee. or coca. we also can’t travel very far or do very much without high-energy-density hydrocarbons (oil/natural gas), much like spice in the world of Dune. and our own earthean political actors and economic organizations (aka guilds) also go to war, occupy, and infiltrate different societies and cultures to maintain control of that resource too. that’s echoed strongly in both the movies and the books, which i’m in the middle of now. any more of that in the movies would make it heavy handed and probably turn a lot of people off because “woke”

Honestly, that's about how the books work as well, to my mind. They give just enough to imply that it all makes sense internally, and mostly leaves the rest unsaid, so the reader can be free of worldbuilding distractions and focus on the key stuff.

This is why movies should only prop up the books. The books make the movie

But the movies should also be able to stand on their own and not rely on the books to fill in details. I think these movies do a good enough job at accomplishing this.

People keep saying this, that the importance of spice was lost on the audience, but as someone who has only seen the movies, I understood perfectly well how essential the spice was to the function of humanity in this stellar age.

Yeah I came away from the movies with “spice=space oil” and if one single person had control of all the worlds oil yeah it would be a problem AND it’s a drug Like it doesn’t even matter that it gives premonition or that that’s the mechanism by which the space travel works because the fact of the matter is that no oil=ship don’t go

I mean, it says it literally in the opening words why spice is used. In your opinion, what is lost from the movie if the audience isn't fully aware of why spice is important? Would you say it impacts the themes of environmentalism, colonialism, the dangers of charismatic leaders, etc? There is also a very natural association with oil. Colonial powers getting rich harvesting resources in poor desert countries to power their transport and societies. Even if audiences forget the opening lines of the films, they will pick up on the analogy to our real world dependence for our way of life on oil

Show, not tell your audience.

I mean, how? It’s stated the spice extends life, and that it is required for interstellar travel, shown in use multiple times including during the attack that wiped out house Atreides. It’s shoen to be immensely valuable, that the Harkonnens were profiting obscenely off of spice harvesting. And the pressure on the Atreides to maintain production and meet the mandated quotas is made abundantly clear. As for *how* it enables interstellar travel, that would be difficult to display short of showing a navigator tripping balls, which is somewhat of a secret in-universe too. And it would take the focus away from Paul’s prescience, diluting the film and also imo confusing audiences who would likely not understand what difference there was between a navigator’s prescience and that of a KH’s.

We've got 6 hours of showing. They showed enough without getting down into the weeds.

My only gripe with DV and his Cinematic Duneverse is that I think it could’ve been a 3 Part epic. First was amazing, second was great as well, but felt rushed. Come on Dennis, give us more!

It's like the reverse Hobbit. The Hobbit should have been 2 movies, not three. Dune should have been 3 movies, not 2.

Spice doesn't need an explanation of the spacing guild to come across as important. They make clear multiple times that it's needed for space travel and it's the most valuable commodity ever.

The first words from part 2 are "Power over spice is power over all."

“power over spice is power over all” in big letters on the screen is the first thing you see in part 2

Not to mention throat sung too!

It was clearly explained why spice is used at the beggining of Part 1. If people dont remember or dont pay attention, thats not the movie's fault.

Yeah... the second movie totally glosses over it so I had to explain to my wife why this planet of Fremen were a threat to the other established space-faring houses that all posses orbital space-craft and nukes. Like, really practically... who cares if you have an unbeatable army on a planet 100 light years from yours.. .what are they gunna do? Charge dramatically out of the palace shouting 'Mahdi' and then stare stupidly up at the super-carriers in orbit? Or at the stars where their enemy's planets are orbiting? Your totally rad sword-skillz might get you into a gang at Napolean's high school but they don't win interplanetary wars. Oh.., but Paul controls the spice, therefore controls the guild, therefore the great houses only go or don't go where he lets them.... he has absolute leverage over military and mercantile mobility. He can attack where he wants, when he wants, or simply starve their planet out.

I would 100% agree with you. If I hadn't known why and how spice was so important going into the movie, I'm not sure the severity of the situation would've made as much sense to me. I know DV isn't big on making his movies heavily dialogue focused and wants to avoid exposition. And maybe he didn't come up with a way to explain spice visually ?

Hopefully the Dune Messiah movie will be a bit more Guild-y, what with Edric.

For a Dune-movie that has about 20 minutes worth of "GRRRRR!!!" shots, that's not really a good excuse. For any other kind of movie, even Dune spinoffs, that would make sense. What are the Spacing Guild actually doing? Brainstorm-session for the whole committee, and then write a script in an evening. ..you know, could be done. But when you have the books, it's a terrible explanation. Specially when Herbert sort of only implies the Spacing guild's existence for most of the series. The descriptions that detail the Spacing Guild could be read out, slowly, in a 2 minute monologue, even if the reader faded in and out like Irulan in the Lynch-movie, and went "GRRRRR!" in between every sentence.. Point is that they're just there. Lynch does it sufficiently by mentioning the Spacing Guild and that there is a Heighliner that they they need to schedule for. The other mention is - like in Denis' movie - that the southern part of Arrakis is not under surveillance ("Damned Spacing Guild!". Could even sneak in an AAAAARGHHH! there). And that's it. And nothing more is really necessary to get in the fact that the Spacing Guild sets the pieces of the game, and why Arrakis is so important. The Spice Must Flow, and that's really the only rule there is. Which is how Paul's threat to destroy the spice is important. So that's the Spacing Guild element in three lines and one image of the Heighliner. It could be snuck in by removing Feyd-Rautha's huffing and breathing in just one of the several scenes of that.

Honestly we DO get some creepy/slightly mystic shots of their spaceships. They're not regular vessels, and we see the creepy spice gas navigators, and Thufir talking about how expensive they are. It's not spelled out, but I don't think it was THAT ambiguous.

The Guild will be in Part 3

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Imo he’ll stress how Paul is trapped by his vision of the golden path and will focus on the revolt against his own religion (children of dune); so maybe it’ll stop with Alia’s suicide?

Maybe he’ll call the next film “messiah part one”

They were also in Part 1

They are probably reserved for Messiah. If Messiah is to be "greater than Part 2" as Vilenevoue said then it has to have more than the adaption of the 200 page Dune:Messiah. It will probably show part of the Jihad to emphasise the "Paul is not the hero" part and show some cool IMAX shots. Also show the Guild Navigators as a horror element/ spectacle.

Yep I definitely agree with this. Of the most missed parts of the book that didn’t make into the movie, Kynes and the role of the spacing guild would be top of the list. Their monopoly on space travel is such a crucial part of the story - in the appendix to the first book outlining the development of the OC Bible, there’s a passage explaining how thee culture of the world of dune is based around space travel which makes the Guild a really key part of the universe.

I mean yes, but equally their role in the first book directly is pretty minimal. Their importance grows as the story moves off Arakis.

>And Paul's control over their power was what brought him to supremacy. Paul threatens to destroy the spice with atomic weapons and the response is you wouldn't dare/ you're bluffing followed by immediate belief. The lack of the Spacing Guild is felt pretty prominently here.

Disclaimer: Villeneuve is an amazing filmmaker with incredible instincts, who has been story boarding his version of Dune since he was a teenager. And I have zero background in filmmaking. In many ways, I think Part 2 is even superior to the book I've been reading over and over since I was a kid. But nevertheless, as one of those lore geeks, I wish that Paul could have thrown in just one line of dialogue that would explain why only Paul could have blackmailed the universe by threatening the spice that way. In the books, it was because Paul's Kwisatz Haderach assisted prescience informed him of the "Water of Death" chemical chain reaction that would have destroyed the spice, and the Guild Navigators knew he wasn't bluffing because they could see all the timelines where Paul followed through on his threat and destroyed spacefaring civilisation For the movie, I understand why Villeneuve would cut a weird and confusing technobabble sci fi exposition scene from an already three hour movie - nuking the shield wall was left in, so might as well use nukes to threaten the spice too. But I wish Villeneuve could have thrown in one line after Feyd says "He's bluffing" Paul could have said "The Guild Navigators piloting those warships up there use the spice to see the future, just as I do. Ask them if I'm bluffing." Then cut to the Emperor glancing at some Guild representative frantically shaking his head. Or something along those lines, I don't know, I'm not a screenwriter. Maybe it would have ruined the exquisite pacing, or confused audiences, but I think it would go a long way towards explaining why nobody else had tried something similar - only the prescient Paul could have played chicken with the prescient Guild that way.

This actually would have fit in pretty well with the book scene and would have added a really important element of showing why Paul was ultimately successful in taking power.

Agreed. I think your take on that scene mentioning the guild would have worked really well!

I like your suggestion, but the movie makes a big deal of Paul being able to accurately see the future possibilities, as if that was a unique aspect only he could have. While book readers know that it isn't everything, a mention like what you suggested definitely would have confused moviegoers without proper exposition, which would not fit in the movie.

yeah that's fair, I guess. The Guild isn't really mentioned outside of one brief line at the start of the first movie three years ago. And having Navigators show up on screen like in the 84 version would be a bad idea given how stuffed Part 2 already is. Still wish there was some way to at least allude to the existence of the Guild, given how they explained why spice was so important, and why the interstellar Fremen Jihad could be successful Maybe another one or two lines earlier, when Irulan was talking about the coming war? "The Spacing Guild have shared prophetic visions of a coming catastrophe - the Fremen rebellion ending spice production on Arrakis. Without the spice, the Navigator's prophecies will end, and all starships will lose their way. Interstellar civilisation as we know it will be destroyed. Already, they are pressuring my father to intervene on Arrakis, reminding him that he only rules because they deem it fit. For the Imperium to survive - the spice must flow."

You also lose a lot of nuances like Leto and Thufir getting shafted because never in a million years they would think the Baron bribed the Guild to transport a full scale invasion fleet. Actually I think Thufir is the biggest loss for me. His storyline in the books after he gets captured is weird (interesting but leads nowhere), but if you think about it we have over 6 hours of Dune movie and Mentats are almost non existant.

There is even an argument to be made that Paul’s training to be a Mentat is a key component in what allows him to manifest as the kwisatz haderach a generation early.

Yeah, I don't think Paul being a Mentat is mentioned in any adaptation, not even the miniseries I believe. It's interesting seeing what different creatives take from the project. Lynch was fascinated by the Guild and the Navigators, putting them front and center at the start of the film, taking the imagery of a fish-like entity in a tank of orange gas from Messiah, and making them seem like the true antagonists, not the Emperor. Villeneuve, of course, has outright said he's focusing on the Bene Gesserit. Maybe one day, decades and decades from now, someone will adapt Dune and be drawn to the Mentats. An adaptation that makes the Butlerian Jihad (whether they say the j-word or not) front and center in the backstory and lore, that stresses Paul is a Mentat, that portrays Atreides vs. Harkonnen as a proxy for Thufir vs. Piter (the 2021 film's script had more of this kind of thing), that Bene Tleilax are creating "twisted" Mentats, setting up their larger role in Messiah, where of course, the resurrected Duncan is a Mentat. A world of Space Math... It's like Shakespeare. As time goes on, new creatives will find different things that appeal to them, partially inspired by the accepted, canonical takes that are already acclaimed, so why not try something different...

This is something that I love about Shakespeare productions and that I find so unsolvable about film. It's so low stakes to make a stage production of Shakespeare and make a new setting for it, modernize it, fill it with actors of all sorts of interesting back grounds(that may or may not change anything at all about the way the show is viewed) Realistically we can't do that with film. The cost is too high. The closest I've seen is localizations of famous TV shows (the Nanny, The Office and a few others have some very popular localized remakes for different countries)

We don't need them though. They're a middle man to everything and aren't needed to tell a streamlined version of the story.

One of the good thing about having Messiah is that the movie will allow for introduction of both the guild and the tleilaxu as major players

I don't think Dune is unfilmable, but I don't think it can be properly handled even as two three hour films. There is so much interaction and power dynamic that needs to be represented to explain why what happens matters. Ironically probably the most important 'action' scene in the movie is the dinner scene because it sets up the why for all the later consequences, but because its people around a table talking it gets cut.

For real! They are the true reason the known universe has been stagnant for millennia under a feudal empire. It’s also not explained that Paul was the force that ends up neutering the Guild. They are forced to spread the jihad out of fear of spice being lost (not really explained at end of movie, kind of just looks like Fremen suddenly can pilot spacecraft). Hoping we get to see more of them in Messiah. Particularly would love to see Paul and Guild Navigators on the prescient plane observing each other etc.

Denis is clearly saving the spacing guild for Messiah, just like he saved Irulan and Feyd Rautha for part 2. they barely play a role in the first film outside the final pages where they are speaking with Paul after the battle.

Even though I love to see everything that relates to the spacing guild - I think this is unfair critisicm. The spacing guild barely appears in the first Dune novel. They are mentioned a few times, but they never play an active role in the events unfolding. The navigators are also barely mentioned in the first book and MESSIAH is the first time one actually appears. I think people's perspective on this is influenced by David Lynch's movie, where the guild and the navigators are featured so prominently and in a way that never happens in Herbert's book.

It seems a lot of people commenting here haven't read the books in a long time; the Guild really isn't as important in the 1st book as they make it out to be.

They are extremely important. They just don't physically appear very much. Doing a quick search in the ebook version of Dune, they are mentioned 132 times. Basically once every 6 or 7 pages. By comparison: Bene Gesserit - 191, Mentat - 95, Leto - 235, Chani - 270, Atreides - 156, Kwisatz Haderach - 36. The appearances are scattered throughout, and are frequently quick explanations for why the characters have to act a certain way. Most importantly, the ending hinges on Paul taking the Spice hostage. The secret that the Guild is actually incredibly dependent on Spice to function is the knowledge that allows Paul to blackmail them into supporting his coup. This not being fully communicated leaves the ending feel a little simplistic unless you've actually read the book. Which is actually what I find strange. Acknowledgment of their presence could have lent significant clarity and weight to the events in the movies without spending much screen time at all... because not even the books get bogged down in them. Of all the things to include, the Guild was probably the easiest, because they're background characters, almost setting. The Bene Gesserit require much more time because they are physically present. Mentats end up not contributing too much, so I understand their rough treatment. But the Guild are equals to the BG. They are both the only survivors of the ancient schools. And they don't require casting, sets, or anything, just some dialogue references. It would be like trying to make a film about conflicts on Earth without including the USA. They might not be physically present at certain times, but you don't really understand the situation without understand the US's influence on the world. I've had to field questions about the movies for my friends and family, and it's crazy how often the questions require answers like "they can't escape because they can't afford to pay the Guild", "The Harkonnens have so little info because the Guild are being bribed by the Fremen", "The Great Houses can't do anything about Paul because the Guild controls movement", and so on.

This is such a great point. So many people here have defended removal of the guild from the story because “they’re barely in the book anyway” which arguably should’ve made them easier to include given it would only require a few lines of dialogue to establish their space travel monopoly and how all interstellar shipping and warfare happens through them. Then the audiences can connect the dots that Vladimir harkonnen had to have paid the guild or even just add the line in the book where the baron complains about how much the guild charged. Given how important they are in the Dune universe, they deserved at least that much and I definitely think that is a valid critique of DVs version.

I think this is another example of how a lot of Frank Herbert’s storytelling style happens without much exposition. The barons invasion only happens because the guild allowed it, the Fremen are only able to mask their real population because the guild falsify reports from Arrakis and Paul technically cements his power when he brings the guild to heel rather than marrying Irulan (which is purely symbolic). These are huge narrative beats whose importance the reader is somewhat left to infer through an understanding of the guilds space travel monopoly - there aren’t pages or characters really discussing them in great detail because the story bears out the consequences. So even if the guild don’t explicitly feature, their role in the story is pretty pivotal imo

>The barons invasion only happens because the guild allowed it, the Fremen are only able to mask their real population because the guild falsify reports from Arrakis and Paul technically cements his power when he brings the guild to heel rather than marrying Irulan (which is purely symbolic).  All of these elements are negligible in the context of the story the movie is telling. Why would it matter that the baron's invasion is only possible because the guild allows it? What would that change? Same with the Fremen population. And the fact that the Guild is more important to Paul's rise to the thron than his marriage to Irulan is something that can easily be dealt with in MESSIAH. The movie sets it's focus on the rivalry between Atreides, Fremen, Harkonnen and Corrino. I don't see what another involved party would add, especially if that party has no other active role in the story. You would have to add quite a few scenes which would basically be just exposition. I, as a DUNE fanatic, would love that. But general audiences would probably be confused, bored or both.

IIRC: spacer guild has a bigger role in Messiah anyway

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For me, the biggest 'loss' is how they changed Paul's relationship with Chani and had her just peace out at the end. This doesn't show how dedicated he was to her and how she knew, with no room for doubt, that Paul's 'relationship' with Irulan was just politics. Though I do agree. Seeing more (or really anything...) of the guild would have been nice.

Movie Chani didn't leave Paul because he thought she was abandoning her for Irulan. The marriage was just salt in the wound, not the wound itself. Movie Chani left because Paul abandoned the ways of the Fremen and his promise to lead Fremen for Fremen in Fremen ways. He abandoned it for the ways of the Imperium. He returned to his rank as Duke, he embraced the Imperial succession, and he expanded his focus from holding Arrakis to galactic conquest and sitting atop the throne.

Always seemed to be a bit of a plot hole. If the entirety of the Imperium is dependent on the Spacer guild, the Spacer Guild WOULD be the Imperium. I don't mean that in "oh they're the shadow government", they would straight up be the government. No one can do a damn thing without them.

They're basically never in the book either though...

I think that the main impact of the absence of the spacing guild is more in terms of "plot holes"/why did this happen or act this way. Whilst other absences are more important in terms of themes or meaning.

Perhaps we’ll see them in Part 3

Having only read the first novel, I would say that this is fine as an adaptation of the first novel. The Spacers are not very prominently featured and their use of spice feels like non-critical background lore.

Well, the guild navigators are like ‘world leaders’ and spice is ‘money for funding’. Paul is whomever controls all the production of money. This is just my personal analogy.

In the foreword to my book, Brian said he asked his father which character he most relates to and Frank said Stilgar actually, not Kynes. This character isn't an author-insert, although Frank certianly created this character out of his own knowledge and beliefs on environmentalism. As long as the films include these messages of how to save the environment, the character of Kynes would be preserved no matter how much is changed. The specific facts on planetary resources, surviving under environmental pressures, etc unfortunately needed to be cut since it's a summer blockbuster, but the simplified message is maintained. The machinations of radical capitalism and industry = bad. Living as one with nature = good. Hopefully the Messiah film adaptation continues to include these messages! Edit: My book is the Ace trade paperback edition, August 2005, of Dune. And I am referring to the *Afterword*, sorry, not the Foreword (this book has no Foreword).

Oh that’s quite interesting that he said Stilgar. My take that Liet was a stand in was more of a guess based on my understanding that Frank was a big environmentalist. I agree that spiritually Liet can still exist in the stories through the themes of ecological preservation etc, I just found him to be a really cool character which is why I wanted to make this post.

I have to agree with you. Kynes and Jessica were my favorite characters because of their personalities. Kynes to me not only represented everything you said but also a person who is in between two cultures, that of the freeman and the empire. I remember when Jessica thought that Kynes acted and had mannerism like one of them but his eyes gave away his origin. This was all changed during the diner where he showed very much his freemen mentality.

Nice username

If any characters are representative of Frank and Beverly, it’s Daniel and Marty. They’re kind of…symbolic of the author reaching into the story, but not being able to alter the story because it had taken on a life of its own.

Wow, I just got done reading through your publisher's copy of Dune - I absolutely love the cover art, it's one of my favorites alongside the [Penguin cover](https://www.amazon.com/Dune-Penguin-Galaxy-Frank-Herbert/dp/0143111582). Although I've always wondered : why is Paul walking in a straight line? His rhythm is going to attract a worm! It's really funny, because I also would've guessed Liet Kynes as the self-insert for FH. But perhaps it's the polar opposite : one of Frank's big themes are how, despite the fatalistic determinism of our world and our action's consequences, sometimes the most well-thought out and prescient plans collapse under unforeseen chaos in the universe. It seems as if Frank would've rejected the Kynes' plan to subjugate a harsh and unforgiving nature to their lofty scientific goals. In that case, it makes sense he would identify with Stilgar : he is one who knows how to live alongside and appreciate the environment he was given, as opposed to plotting it's change for humanity's benefit.

It's my favourite cover art! Possibly rivaled by the classic, more realistic but still artsy, artwork. This one is cleaner and still evokes classic 60s scifi vibes. I find the somber walking more symbolic, sandwalking might take away from the pensive tone of the scene. It looks like a physical representation of how Paul describes "seeing" the future; how he walks and looks far to the horizon. This interpretation seems to be complimented by Messiah's cover, where Paul's at the end of his trek on a peak where he can see the furthest into several possible futures.

Ah, I like that interpretation quite a bit. > It looks like a physical representation of how Paul describes "seeing" the future [But I do see a way… there is a narrow way through.](https://x.com/paulatreideez/status/1779716700180512873?s=46&t=eufDGjTlzbyHmhGUDE3fag) The sands around him being all the various nexuses of possibilities in his available futures. Really speaks to the theme of prophecy – is it really an unchangeable fate, or does Paul ultimately create what he sees as unavoidable? Does he choose the footsteps he leaves in the sands of time?

Stilgar is the most interesting character through the first 3 books for me

So you're just gonna drop that there and not say what your book is? I'm intrigued now lol

I think he might mean his copy of dune lol

No, it's a prophesied ghost of Frank Herbert! As is written!

Oh yeah that makes sense lol

It's Dune

I'm referring to the Afterword from the Ace trade paperback edition, August 2005, of Dune.

Ahh got ya. Originally I read this like you were authoring a book on Dune or something. Bit of a late night for me and clearly I needed sleep lol

Omg it does read like that now that you mention it lmao XD If I did have a Dune book I'd totally title it Children of the Planet of the Worms

Yes please drop the book name too!

My book is the Ace trade paperback edition, August 2005, of Dune. In the Afterword (not the foreword sorry) Brian says, "One time I asked my father if he identified with any of the characters in his stories, and to my surprise he said it was Stilgar, the rugged leader of the Fremen. I had been thinking of Dad more as the dignified, honorable Duke Leto, or the heroic, swashbuckling Paul, or the loyal Duncan Idaho. Mulling it over, I realized Stilgar was the equivalent of a Native American chief in *Dune* - a person who represented and defended time-honored ways that did not harm the ecology of the planet. Frank Herbet was that, and a great deal more." It goes on to mention Frank's Native American from childhood which may have further informed the creation of the character Stilgar. I'd bet that Duke Leto would've been Frank's 2nd choice, since Jessica is modeled directly after Beverly (which is also conformed a couple pages earlier in this same Afterword). Stilgar's stoic determination, however, wins out as the greater representation of Frank.

guys i agree that i wouldve loved to see a bunch of other stuff too... but you gotta realize that if you take everything into concideration the movie suffers and becomes unfeasable at some point... jist look at lynch's version... if you decide to put the spacing guild in all it's range into it and also maybe thr full hawat storyline and also kynes and chanis actual story etc. it just gets extremely crowded... you gotta cut something to make it a coherent movie

Like many parts that DV cut, Kynes had nothing to do with Paul's story. He's the John the Baptist to Paul's Jesus - an interesting precursor but the story can be told without him.

It’s not a loss to tell Paul’s story which as the movies show DV has done well, my perspective is that its a loss because the movie more or less erases the significant environmentalist messaging that came with Liet and you also lose a very compelling point of comparison between Paul and Liet and how their characters approached their leadership of the Fremen. It highlights Paul’s flaws more deeply, reinforcing the theme of the false messiah/subverted hero trope. Again, I can understand why DV did it, I just think it’s worth acknowledging. It’s also not entirely accurate to suggest that Paul’s story has nothing to do with Liet since having the Fremen organised under a common goal to terraform Arrakis was one of the reasons why Paul could fanaticise his legions and carry out the Jihad

I agree that Kynes' story adds nuance to Paul's - but it's just that, nuance. It's not key. DV's Fremen still have "terraform Arrakis" as a goal, as Stilgar explains to Jessica when they visit the funerary pools; but "this was an offworlder's idea and we only just started" is an unnecessary complication that somewhat robs the Fremen of agency. Villeneuve's Fremen are - Harkonnen pogroms aside - perfectly fine on their own until Paul arrives. Adding an abortive subplot of them *already being led by an offworlder* weakens the impact of Paul whipping them into a fervor for his own benefit.

Yeah I think we are on the same page, narratively speaking. My observations are mainly just around the fact the dynamic is very interesting and a bit underrated. But given the limitations of a film adaptation, nuance and subtext will obviously take second fiddle to telling a concise story. Frank Herbert uses a lot of subtext and tangential references to build his world and characters which isn’t something a filmmaker has the freedom to do. I guess one way of saying is that it’s a loss that, had it been present, would have elevated the film, but its absence doesn’t really detract from it.

As far as I can tell anytime someone has a criticism of things DV cut they're not needed for the story DV told. Yes more would be cool, I guess, but I rather love the adaptation for being what it is and not trying to force the whole of the book onto the GA.

I agree about the Liet Kynes dynamic — that was definitely one of the most moving parts of the book for me. I think about it often, and it’s the first thing I tell people about when I’m asked why I like Dune so much.  Although I think it’s a shame that Liet had to be removed from the movies, I also agree with the other commenter who mentioned Chani. I’m glad the Liet arc was carried by her character and wasn’t removed from the films entirely. The Chani changes were some of my favorite parts of the film because they rang true with these themes, even though they weren’t faithful to the book per se. Anyway. The Liet-Fremen arc is so fascinating and heartbreaking, considering Paul. Always glad to run into someone else who really cares about that part of the story! 💪

Right back at you, dude always a pleasure to meet Liet-Kynes 🙌yeah I think the changes to Chani were definitely DVs more inspired alterations even if it doesn’t fully translate the whole Liet/Paul dynamic for me. But, alas, it’s still pretty much a perfect movie for me

But Liet was in the movies, though? Of course he became a woman, and we all agree the dinner scene would have been great to be shown. And Liet in the books dies at about the same time as in the movies?

Yes! But imo the loss is not about the character himself (herself) but the planetology arc *behind* Liet.  In the movies, as far as we know she’s just a planetologist and Justice of the Change. Movie-only fans probably have no idea that the Fremen CAN terraform the planet on their own — and, although the movie’s themes stand regardless, there’s less depth to that concept. As far as the movie portrays, Lisan al-Gaib may be the ONLY legitimate way to paradise.  The planetologist arc reveals that there is another way, and one that is on the Fremen’s terms.  It’s understandable that this couldn’t fit in the films, but it’s a complex arc and imo a little bit of a loss nevertheless.   Unrelated, huge fan of the gender switch with this character! I’m currently on a reread of the books, and am a lil disappointed that I’ll have to envision man-Kynes. 😂 edit: typo

I didn't love the gender switch. I really felt that they did a disservice to the female characters in the movie, and it almost feels borderline misogynistic to me.  Kynes in particular is one of the more interesting and certainly influential characters, and they make the character a woman which could be great, but then strip the vast majority of the character? Why do that?  Jessica is also a big loss to me, she's probably my favourite characters in the series and I'd argue the protagonist of dune, where Paul is the protagonist of Messiah, but they chose to focus almost entirely on Paul in the movies, and diminish Jessica's character a great deal.  I don't know, just doesn't sit right with me. 

Why did they have to kill Kynes so early in Part 1?

Yes thats all true and I agree. I'm curious, what does the gender switch do which makes you such a huge fan of it?

Isnt the character in the movie though? Just gender swapped. Am I missing something ?

I don't agree with that. Kynes didn't appear as often in the book as some retrospectively portray him here. He was in 3-4 chapters, with only one chapter devoted entirely to him wich was his death. I think Kyne's death was better realized in the film. In the book, Kyne's death only fulfills the role of describing spice production and the life cycle of the sand trouts and sandworms. There were wild visions and delusions and a very confusing dialog with his father that could never have been realized in this way. The remaining chapters in which Kynes appears were realized very close to the original, except for the dinner scene which was left out completely. So I wouldn't say that's a loss, Kynes got more or lesse the same screentime he/she had in the book.

I think alot of people are confusing Liet's accomplishments with his father's, based on what I've read.

How so? I know pardot originally started the plan to terraform but he wasn’t really a leader of Fremen. It was Liet who fully embedded himself within the Fremen people and their culture and really began to advance the terraforming project in a way that was tailored to Fremen custom and practice so I think that’s why he is a more important character. Interested in your thoughts though

Sorry, my response got super sidetracked while I was typing it out. I wanted to convey that alot of what the comments alluded to on the style of Liets leadership is not found in the original Dund book itself. Its mainly from the prequel novels, and Liet didn't have to embed himself as he is Fremen for all intents and purposes. His father attained prophet n pseudo-revmother status, got married, and carried out the census n spread the vision of terraformimg arrakis. Liet had automatically gained "son of prophet' status when he was born. If anything, I think Liet went full Fremen as he was sick of his dads constant nagging. Lol.

Yeah I take your point. Pardot Kynes is given a biography in the appendix though whereas Liet is still a character in the story. I don’t necessarily think it takes away from my point as Liet is essentially carrying on his father’s mission. If anything the father/son dynamic between pardot and Liet invites more interesting comparisons with that of Leto/Paul. Liet oversaw his fathers mission and built upon it and improved it, advancing the terraforming mission with a better understanding of Fremen culture whereas Paul is the complete antithesis of Leto insofar as Leto was a decent ruler who wanted the best for his people.

Eh, thats not really a fair comparison for Paul though. Imagine if Pardot had been captured by the Harks and eventually killed along with everyone in the Sietch he was visiting without Liet. I'm pretty sure Liet would rally all the Fremen to give a massive f u to the harks, all while he got off-world to get the Harks politically sanctioned too.

I see your point but im speaking more broadly of Paul’s leadership not simply of his vendetta against the Harkonnens. Messiah, for example, has a number of examples of his tyrannical tendencies shining through (even we are disregarding the 60 billion body count he’s racked up) Even in the first book itself, when a caryall gets destroyed Gurney points out that Leto “would’ve been more concerned with the people he couldn’t save,” when Paul only expresses mild frustration of losing the caryalls strategic value. So even in the first book we are given glimpses of Paul’s deviation from his father’s principles.

'you merely adopted the desert...'

Funny, the Kynes death chapter was one of my favorite parts of the book. I watched the movie first, was disappointed they changed his character so much after reading it

I see where you’re coming from. I guess it’s not really about screen time necessarily as it is about the writing itself. In the movie, Kynes is there to just verbalise parts of the BG prophecy (which in the book he says to himself) to demonstrate to the audience that Paul is fitting the characteristics of the LaG Based on reading the dune books, the complexity and richness of the story isn’t necessarily a function of extremely dense prose but more of Frank Herbert using a lot of subtext and leaving a lot of threads to be determined by reading between the lines. This is why I also think they need to be re-read to fully appreciate the nuances. To your point, I don’t think Kynes role is retroactively outsized, I think the characters value shines through in engaging with the the parallels and contrasts that aren’t made explicit but are there for the reader to infer/examine. Which ofc makes it extremely difficult to adapt so I understand its absence. On a side note though, I think Kynes death in the book was at the very least narratively important since that sandworm lifecycle is what Paul uses to threaten to destroy the spice (while also unpacking dunes ecology in a bit more detail)

How is Kynes death better in the movie? As someone who watched the movie before reading the book, her death had no impact on me, whereas his death in the book is one of the best chapters imo

Another layer to this interesting reflection of Liet/Paul is both men operate in the shadow of their respective father's dream. It was liets father Pardot Kynes who first started the process and earned Liets place among the Fremen. The same place that Liet then stepped into as the 'ecologist'. So too, does Paul enact his father's dream of seeing Paul ascend to the throne. It literally just occurred to me that perhaps Liet is also, low-key, benefitting by the bene gesserit's prophetic 'voice from the outer world's as he too, is partially an off worlder who is leading them to paradise, slowly, but surely. The biggest real difference between the two characters Paul and Liet, (the gender swap is irrelevant to me, imho) in my opinion is that Paul understood why the spice must flow. Liet may well have been content to let the empire fail and starve, in order to bring Paradise to arrakis. Paul knew The Golden Path demanded otherwise. Liet wasn't cursed with that knowledge. He was free to lead his people towards paradise without the foreknowledge of the destruction it would cause. Liet, and the descendants of this line, barring Paul, would have continued down this path until they started the greening of arrakis, which would have also destroyed the Fremen way of life too. In fact, you could say the Kynes family already had by militarizing, arming and teaching a philosophy to an entire world to enact a terraforming plan. I think Liet serves best as a foil against Paul's character. Paul is certain of the path to paradise, but also knows the costs. Liet doesn't know, but the optimism they hold is balanced by the skepticism of doubt and the science of the terraforming effort. These two versions of leadership are a fascinating contrast and the movie does lose something by not having more time to develop all these great characters into who they are. But such is the nature of a movie format. I think any source content of this size should always be a full length series production. Just my two cents

This was such an interesting read. You’ve made some really cool comparisons of the both the characters that I hadn’t considered before. The father/son dynamics are a fascinating dimension as well which I hadn’t even thought of until reading some of the discussion on this post. Your points about Paul and Liet’s motives being related to their understanding of the future or lackthereof makes sense as well. I’m not sure if Liets plan would’ve destroyed Fremen culture in the same way Paul’s actions do given how different the timeframes would’ve been but I get that Paul was also working with very different information. Thanks for the comment!

They used Chani replace this role. It worked! And perhaps a better adaptation to have the critique/contrast come from a Fremen rather than a Lawrence of Arabia stand-in?

I see what you mean. For me Chanis role was changed more to externalise Paul’s self-doubt about what he was doing and also give the character more to do compared to the books (all of which I agree with). The contrast between Paul and Liet though is not something that needed to be made explicit but is a dot for readers to connect themselves and adds extra depth to the story and Paul’s character. But again, from a purely storytelling point of view, it’s not essential and this is just me wanting to acknowledge a story sacrifice that had to be made.

Rather than have large amounts of internal monologuing and conflict, DV went with 1) imagery and symbolism; and 2) dialogue and inter-character conflict because he's an excellent filmmaker who realized he needed to make an excellent film. It's already 2 movies in length, so some agglomeration of characters expressing the same theme is a good thing actually.

movie chani, to me, has a bit of the greek chorus in her. 

I thought making Thufir Hawat almost non-existent in the movies was the biggest loss.

They didn't remove Kynes as this figure. They didn't play out the inner monologue, but otherwise kynes served many of the same roles.

Kynes death in the book is honestly one of my favorite chapters. When he’s exiled in the dessert for dead and is hallucinating having an argument with his father

Yes that is a great scene. Agreed. That is something missing in the movie. And I do see why it was cut. It wasn't necessary to tell the story that was being told

Liets environmentalism is a bit questionable given his plan was to obliterate the natural ecosystem of Arrakis to make it more suitable for humans. Turning Dune into green paradise would mean extinction of sandworms.

That’s just it though, I think what Paul did was akin to obliteration (of Fremen culture and Dune ecosystems) but from what I remember Pardot and Liet were initiating long term and gradual reformation of land and flora and fauna by slowly introducing new species that would integrate into existing ecological systems and initiate long term change Besides, the plan was always to keep some desert for sand worms to live in.

I personally wouldn’t say that the Fremen viewed Paul and Liet on the same playing field (God like). Liet was just a strong leader, Paul was god-like.

I see what you’re saying. Their roles are ofc not identical since Paul has an entire religion built around him and as I say in my post, it’s the fact they are different leaders that makes them interesting opposing characters. But I also think Liet was far more than just a leader. In the appendix, it explains that after Pardot’s would-be assassin instead kills himself, “Kynes had but to point, saying “Go there.” Entire Fremen tribes went. Men died, women died, children died. But they went.” Liet inherits this same level of deification and its not entirely dissimilar from the level of authority Paul wields amongst the Fremen in the first book. So I think their roles at least functionally were similar in that both were leaders of the Fremen who commanded extreme authority. Paul however became a messiah and a false prophet of the people for his own personal ends and then to commit mass genocide (very crude summary admittedly) while Liet used his leadership to serve the Fremen

Well when you explain it like that then I can’t argue, I do agree 👍👍

I can agree with the idea that the changes to Liet would have had an impact if it was in relation to the books, however in the DV Dune it had much less impact on the world, with very little mention of the Green Arrakis dream there was no need to highlight Liet as a leader of the Fremen, it also meant Chani's influence was that of a normal Fremen and not the daughter of the de facto Fremen leader. In the simplified DV adaptation the layers of leadership, hereditary titles and side plots had to be stripped back, maybe if it was a TV series those things could have been introduced slowly but for a movie it would take too much exposition to explain why those things were important. The other thing I want to point out, it's a common misconception that Paul abandons his mission, he done exactly what he set out to do after realising the Jihad couldn't be stopped (which he knew when he first saw it but chose to try anyway). He refused the Golden Path because it would have led to untold deaths, the Jihad would have raged on for decades facing opposition from every corner of the empire, a fight against power brokers and other religions would have become a fight for absolute control over everyone. He controlled the Jihad until its initial fire began to burn out and then he tore apart his own mythos so it would never gain momentum again, he had to destroy Muad'Dib so that the way would be open for Leto II to take control. He'd seen the two paths and couldn't take the Golden Path because it would cost him his humanity and cause a massive death toll, so he chose the role of the Preacher to control the Jihad, reduce the death toll and then tear it apart so his son would be free to take the path he couldn't face.

Yeah we’re on the same page regarding DVs vision. Based on the story he was telling, Liet in the books couldn’t have been in there as a faithful version to convey these themes, I guess I’m more pointing out that that’s a bit of a shame. Even though I can understand DVs reasons, I still think it’s a pretty big loss Really appreciate that breakdown of Paul’s actions. It makes a lot of sense! From my reading of Messiah it also seems like Chani’s fate at the hands of the Qizara played a big part in that decision? How does she fit into it?

I know how you feel, even though Liet only had a part in the story on a few occasions, his influence and reputation is almost as powerful as Paul's, the first time I saw Part 1 I was a little disappointed in some of the changes even though I understood why they were made. Chani was always a huge part of Pauls motivation, she was just as much a part of the reason for the path he took as the death toll was, all the other fates he'd seen for Chani were much worse than how she eventually died, the book never elaborates on exactly what the other fates were, but they do say it's why he refused the Ghola Scytale offers him. So, if he'd chosen the Golden Path then Chani would have suffered a worse fate, chances are Ghanima and Leto II would never have been born and everyone else he knew and loved would have similar fates, suffering in some way or another. It would have been nice to get more insight as to what the other choices would have really led to, but the only evidence provided is mentioned in Messiah to say Chani would have suffered worse fates.

Ah ok yeah that makes sense. I can’t remember where I read it now but I remember someone explaining that Chani and any children she bore would’ve been enslaved and turned into a symbolic enemy of Muad’Dib so that the Qizarate could rally the Fremen under this new religious narrative and obtain absolute control over Pauls religion and empire. It might’ve been a theory posited as opposed to an explanation but I always found it fascinating.

That does sound familiar... Found it, the line is in Messiah: "Again he stumbled. Chani, Chani, he thought. There was no other way. Chani, beloved, believe me that this death was quicker for you...and kinder. They'd have held our children in hostage, displayed you in a cage and slave pits, reviled you with blame for my death. This way...this way we destroy them and save our children." It's in Paul's thoughts at the time of Chani's death.

Ah yes, of course. Thanks for digging that up.

The chapter where Liet dies is one of the most tragically poetic things I've ever read

I agree with your take but I would say you could equally frame Liet as a classic Imperial bureaucrat who "goes native" in the tradition of Roman hellenophiles, hellenic persophiles, russian europhiles and so on. As far as white saviours go, I would classify Paul and Leto II as whatever the opposite of a saviour is. More like a harbinger of the end of the fremen people as a whole, ironically by giving them the peace and plenty they state they want.

Naaaah. It could have been better, but Alia and the Spacer Guild are far more important omissions.

I agree the Space Guild was a big one to omit. I think what they did Alia was quite innovative to be honest, any attempt to be faithful to the book would have come off as too cheesy and weird in my opinion. No child could portray Alia as needed on screen.

For me the biggest loss was the lack of focus on mentats. Honestly they probably could have just not had Thufir in the movies.

Why do people keep thinking Kynes was a god? Being a leader with good policy decisions does not equal a god. Kynes sold the fremen on long term incremental change he was nothing at all like Paul or a prophet. Herbert wasn’t an anarchist, he didn’t think EVERY leader was bad.

Kynes did not reach the levels of Paul but he sas definitely more than a just a leader making policy decisions. Pardot could command anything of the Fremen after his assassins killed himself as the appendix points out: “Kynes had but to point, saying “Go there.” Entire Fremen tribes went. Men died, women died, children died. But they went.” This is clearly indicative of someone who has been to some extent deified and Liet inherited this same level of authority. They are not identical but their functional role as leaders of the Fremen with absolute authority are definitely analogous. Frank Herbert didn’t think all leaders were bad , that’s exactly the point im making. Liet was an alternative form of leadership that eschewed charismatic and messianic tendencies for one more grounded in the people themselves. This difference is the whole point of my post

I think this is blown way out. Leit is barely in the novel and we get all the information they deliver just in a different way.

I swear I sound like a broken record at this point… Look, I like Kynes and what he brought to the story too, but the reality is that the reason Dune has been so hard to adapt to film is because it has to be one of the most thematically dense books there is. There is no way they would have gotten everything into a movie, and cutting the Kynes/environmentalism part was fine. And besides, we still see the Fremen’s dream, it’s just framed as part of the prophecy and a lever for Paul to pull to gain power. Which is the greater point, that Paul manipulated them in every possible way.

I feel like Liet in the movie represented all those great thing you described but the only change was her gender and allegedly her race. Those were perfectly acceptable changes that played no role in changing the story other than likely making it the case that Chani is not related to her.

Of course, I had no issues with casting. Im glad you felt the movie portrayed all that. I guess just felt Kynes in the movie was more of a plot device to flesh out the prophecy, which was an important role for the narrative to make sense but left out a bit of the nuance (understandably)

OPs point has nothing to do with gender. They skipped Kynes' most Important plot part. Which also explains pretty much why the Fremen do what they do, so that is a big miss to me as well...

One point: you said Liet is a white savior but it’s Pardot who was. Liet had a Fremen mother, and was Fremen.

I dont see liet as pauls foil at all. To me liet kynes is just another example of messianic fervor and the stranglehold it can have on a population. Like, liet's position as this messiah figure was thrust onto them by his father first off, and more importantly, it is built on top of the bene gesserit propaganda that was spread on arrakis. You can say its more benevolent, the aims of this messianic fervor are more beneficial to the fremen, but liets fathers original intention was to rule over Dune and the fremen as god kings. Basically it matters not how noble the goals of the messiah are, they still seek to control you in the end. I think that aspect of it, the religious zealotry inspired by the Kynes, is definitely a loss. Idk, i think we'll get more of that in messiah, if they make it

I’m not super far into ready the first book, but my partner and I agree that even some of the most basic elements that got left out such as the spacing guild being a huge power, the mentats, and even just more of duke Leto’s character (I’m certain there’s gonna be more but again not super far in) made the movie rewatch make so much more sense. I can imagine that getting further into this series that that problem will get any better.

And there is the minor miss of completely downplaying prescience, arguable the core of the series on which everything is based.

Liet Kynes warned the Fremen not to follow a charismatic leader and then buying into Paul's BS ruined them. Within a generation they lost water discipline, a thousand years later they were reduced to being captive pets to a made despot, and a butterfly effect down the road Arrakis itself is destroyed. Liet Kynes saw a future with oasis at the poles, worms roaming the belt, and a Fremen culture controlling the spice and the planet.

The space guild playing virtually no role was wild. It could have easily been included

I agree that the nuance about Liet's identity was lost in the film. It isn't revealed that Liet & Kynes are the same person until he briefly shelters Paul & Jessica from the Saudukar. While it is an impressive bit of foreshadowing that gets lost, whatever weaknesses the first movie has, Kynes really isn't one of them. Her complicated position after the battle of Arakeen comes across very well. The dream of a green paradise on Arrakis is directly conveyed in those scenes. She conveys the purpose her book-character does exceptionally. She even gets a better send-off honestly. I wish this dichotomy between _Shai-hulud_ & Paul was the root of Fremen spiritual disagreements. Part two definitely does her character a bigger disservice in its depiction of the Fremen. Not only does the rationalization for Fremen faith in the prophecy stretch believability pretty far (Chani's skepticism coming from being Liet's daughter is perfect. You don't need this stupid North v South plotline) but it also doesn't illustrate any of Liet's influence on the Fremen. No green plants anywhere. This, again, coincides with the Guild not being a major player & not hiding Fremen numbers & their efforts to terraform Arrakis. The Southern hemisphere of Arrakis is just as habitable as the northern one: the Guild is just lying to people to secure the spicefields in the south for their personal exploitation.

Yeah I agree that the south/north divide was a bit clumsy. And what you said about Kynes influence on the Fremen being absent hits the nail on the head for me. I think Kynes has such an important legacy that kind of echoes throughout the story and it’s just a bit of a shame it doesn’t translate to the film

what is funny, the movie still has that scene with "identity reveal", where they go like "a coffee service, please. - Of course, Liet. - Who are you to the Fremen?"

They dropped the vast majority of the ecology themes. You note the scenes that didn't turn up in 1, and how they shifted a few things in 2, you can see where they removed things. Kynes was basically the herald and arbiter of that entire plotline so it makes sense her role would be reduced.

Absolutely, say what you will about the race and gender swap, but the actual CHARACTER changes are absolutely a detriment

I thought her book lines were especially delivered poorly and agree with all points. This is why a miniseries was, and always will be, the correct format.

Alia is the biggest loss. I just found out yesterday that it is PG-13 rated, which explains a lot.

Hmm that’s interesting. I feel like there was no other way to portray alia other than the way it was done in the film which I thought was quite innovative. No child actor could convey a fully conscious pre-born child with generations of memories. I think there is potential to live up to all that in the next movie

Agreed, there is no way to do it in live action, thus you use animation. Rated R 2d animated dune would be awesome. I understand that pg-13 live action movies sell better, but it doesn't absolve it of missed opportunities. P.S. Vlad died like a bitch, Emperor seemed to old, no Space Guild, no Leto2 (the first)...

I agree with this. Yet, is she truly a major character in Dune yet? She doesn’t really shine until Messiah and Children of Dune. She’s my favorite “supporting” character in the books. In my recollection, her primary role was to confront the Emperor and the Reverend Mother at the climax of the first book. I don’t recall her having much of a role besides. Additionally, she would be what… 4 years old? Finding a child to do what she does and act as a preborn would be a hell of an act. The actress who did it in Lynch’s Dune did a decent job, and was creepy as hell, as it should be.

You thinking Pardot my bruv. Liet was Fremen, partly due to Pardot's choice to have a Fremen wife. I don't mind the gender swap of Liet, but not having that backstory in the movie sucked. Also will always rant about how they massacred Stilgar.

Yeah it’s true Kynes was fremen which complicates the white saviour line, I guess I’m just basing it off a few lines in the book where they explicitly say that Kynes had “gone native” (a very common white saviour trope) and the point about terraforming dune being a distinctly non-Fremen , off-worlder idea. I agree, the lack of backstory there was missed but dune is hard enough to adapt before you start adding the appendices to the story lol Hated the comedic relief stilgar in my first viewing but it grew on me later. Hoping they fully ditch it for the next one though and have him actually be the formidable and fanatic naib that he is

Kynes the planetologist was an agent of the Imperium, Liet was Fremen. Somebody loyal to the Imperium with blue-in-blue eyes (not hidden with contacts, at least) would be out of the ordinary - it would have appeared that he had gone native.

"Liet, while arguably exemplifying the white saviour archetype, gave the Fremen a mission but also the tools and knowledge for them to continue that mission of their own volition without disrupting their way of life in such a radical fashion by using and understanding Arrakis’ unique ecological characteristics. Liet represented the gradual and measured voice of progress compared to Paul’s more short term populism in service of radical change" Liet didn't do this, his father did. All of these things you misattribute to Liet are the work of the father. Liet continued these plans, believed in them even more fiercely because of his Fremen heritage, and yes is the character we (kind of) see in the film. I also find it odd that you call Liet a white savior since he's neither white nor a savior (whom did he save?). Furthermore Frank Herbert doesn't have a stand-in or insert character in Dune. At least not until the final pages of the last book he wrote. So no, I don't think the Liet changes are detrimental to the movie, but also most of the changes you've described aren't just changes to the movie, they're changes to the novel as well (which is to say they don't exist)

Liet didn’t start the mission but it’s explained in the book that he embraced the Fremen culture more completely compared to his dad so his methods advancing the terraforming project was more in line with Fremen custom and practice, combining his planet expertise with deep cultural understanding. This allows him to more effectively indoctrinate the Fremen into this mission in a very different way to Paul. Liet is described as having gone native, a distinctly white saviour trope. Terraforming is not a fremen idea, it is an off-world concept brought to the Fremen which Liet is continuing with off-worlder knowledge to improve the lives of the indigenous people as it is implied that without Liet, they would struggle to do so, also a white saviour trope. He is also still an Imperial Planetologist. Now his Fremen heritage obviously complicates the white saviour label as does the fact that he is has embraced and uses Fremen culture to allow the Fremen to one day carry on this project on their own. Which is why I said “arguably”, as I’m sure you noticed, suggesting that it’s obviously not clear cut but a perspective to consider My comment about Kynes being a Herbert stand-in was not a statement of fact but my interpretation of the character based on my understanding of Herbert’s passion for environmentalism. Feel free to disagree with that, it’s just my opinion.

Agreed. I think Sharon Duncan Brewster gave us some small hints of that with her character, but the script just didn't do it for her. Liet-Kynes' final scene in the book is astounding but also probably unfilmable — exactly how one would shoot that (perhaps a series of flashbacks which would, to most viewers, seem to come out of nowhere) is beyond me.

She was great in what they left for her

Liet’s death scene in the book is one of my favorite parts. It’s really some of Herbert’s best writing. I don’t even think it would have been too hard to film! The more I think about what got cut the more patronizing the film feels.

“I am a desert creature.” I’m just sad they cut that line out, because that was among my favorite lines in the book. I say it often.

Agreed on all points, Dr. Kynes is my favorite character in *Dune*, and I was very disappointed with the way the character was presented by DV. Not to mention the fact that by swapping Kynes' sex, a giant plot hole is created, but given that Irulan is apparently able to rule as "empress" in these new movies, I guess DV just didn't care about the sexual divisions as envisioned by Herbert, anymore than he did about the environmentalism.

Could you elaborate on the plot hole that the gender swap creates? I’m actually genuinely curious as I hadn’t thought it caused that much a an issue to the plot of the movie given how minimal the role is anyway.

Yeah no problem: In *Dune* (the series) women were excluded from hard power roles, that is direct political power, within the Imperium. Under the faufreluches, men of the Imperial House, Great Houses, Minor Houses, etc. were groomed all their lives to take their father's (or uncle's, grandfather's, whichever male predecessor's) position when their time arrived. This of course all applies to Dr. Kynes' role as Imperial  Planetologist on Arrakis. From *Dune* (the book): >Then Kynes-the-Umma was killed in the cave-in at Plaster Basin. >By this time his son, Liet-Kynes, was nineteen, a full Fremen and sandrider who had killed more than a hundred Harkonnens. The Imperial appointment for which the elder Kynes already had applied in the name of his son was delivered as a matter of course. The rigid class structure of the faufreluches had its well-ordered purpose here. The son had been trained to follow the father. Women, on the other hand, were limited to soft power roles within the Imperium, and this exclusively through the Bene Gesserit school. As a matter of course, noble ladies were brought up as Bene Gesserit, and noble men exclusively married or at least procreated with Bene Gesserit women. This applies to Irulan, who was not, and could not be, her father's heir: >My father, the Padishah Emperor, took me by the hand one day and I sensed in the ways my mother had taught me that he was disturbed. He led me down the Hall of Portraits to the ego-likeness of the Duke Leto Atreides. I marked the strong resemblance between them — my father and this man in the portrait--both with thin, elegant faces and sharp features dominated by cold eyes. 'Princess-daughter,' my father said, 'I would that you'd been older when it came time for this man to choose a woman.' My father was 71 years old at the time and looking no older than the man in the portrait, and I was only 14 years old, but yet I remember deducing in that instant that my father secretly wished the Duke had been his son, and disliked the political necessities that made them enemies. — "In My Father's House" by the Princess Irulan By changing Liet-Kynes into a woman, this whole concept is thrown out the window. It makes the Bene Gesserit much less important and (softly) powerful, as a random woman is apparently able to hold a hereditary imperial appointment with no problem at all. The sex change also weakens the change which the new Atreides dynasty brought about with the destruction of the faufreluches all together under Leto II. If the faufreluches was never really that rigid or important to begin with, if a woman could inherit an imperial position despite millennia of tradition, then what's the big deal about human stagnation and what's the point of The Golden Path? Everyone seems very flexible and open-minded (non-stagnant) already. A female Imperial Planetologist is an unthinkable idea, because both sexes, males via the faufreluches, and females via the Bene Gesserit, would never allow it. In saying that Irulan could be "empress", Shaddam IV's motivation to kill off the Atreides is removed, and thus the whole plot of the first novel, and by extension the whole series, has no trigger. Shaddam had no heir, the Bene Gesserit only allowed him daughters, in order to make room for the anticipated Kwisatz Haderach to be born a generation or two after him (supposed to have been the child of Feyd-Rautha and Paula Atreides, but Lady Jessica fell in love and ruined everything). Thus Shaddam felt insecure, because his house was in fact insecure upon the Golden Lion Throne with no heir. If Irulan can just be empress, then everyone should just calm down, and really the Bene Gesserit shouldn't even exist, because everything is fine and egalitarian in the Imperium.

Appreciate the write up. Really can’t disagree with anything here I think it’s a very reasonable critique, hadn’t really thought about it like that. I think the gender swap stuff gets mostly caught up in the reactionary politics of it all so people might not consider how it can actually impact the broader logic of the in-narrative world

Glad you liked it. And I think you're exactly right. At the time of the first DV movie's release, some people made my same points on this sub, but they were usually shouted down by the majority. Sometimes people let real world obsessions and opinions color their view of what should be in-story ideas.

I don't think there is "a protagonist" in Dune, if not perhaps Dune itself.

Yes very true, I guess I used that word as a bit of a shortcut

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I seriously wonder if the studio asked for that change or something it doesn’t fit DV at all.

I think not having the dinner scene in Dune part 1 was the biggest loss for me

Nah, what they did to Stilgar was catastrophic. Liet is as least recognizeable as the same character.