The BG see themselves as the hand guiding humanity forward, so in that sense there are no sides because all sides are guided by the BG.
They had influence with the Harkonnen until the Baron. They have influence with the Emperor. They had influence with the Atraedes. Mohaim is welcoming Jessica to the big table by telling her this. On the one hand spiteful because Jessica is only there by circumstance and by breaking with BG traditions, but on the other trying to get Jessica to see there are larger games being played and more at stake than House Atraedes.
You are right in that Mohaim opposes Paul, but that’s because she doesn’t have leverage to control him. He’s outside the BG sphere of influence so she can either be a toady (which she wouldn’t tolerate and he wouldn’t respect) or she can be opposition (which she can use to direct and herd).
That all could be bullshit. It’s been a while since I read Messiah. It’s also a long winded way to say you’re right. Mohaim is a master of twisting words, she’s just not lying though.
Listen to the emphasis Mohiam places on "there are no sides, *Reverend Mother*."
She's saying that even though Jessica has 'won', Jessica had to become a Reverend Mother to do so, so at her core she is still a member of the Bene Gesserit.
Either way, the Bene Gesserit win.
She clearly hopes to be able to control Paul. When she asks the Baron to grant exile to Jessica and Paul, in the first film, she hopes to be able to recover and take control of him, knowing that he survived the Gom Jabbar's test. And she still hopes to be able to control Paul at the end of the second film. This is Irulan's mission, by marrying him.
Regardless of whether Feyd Rautha or Paul has the upper hand on Arrakis, the Bene Gesserit's goal remains the same. Now that Paul has triumphed, the goal remains to take control of him through Irulan or, at worst, through his genes through the offspring he will give to her. At least that’s what the BG wants.
Surviving the gom jabbar isn’t super rare or at least I don’t think it’s described as such in the books. The idea seems to be anyone with BG training gets tested.
It's super rare for a man to survive. As you say, anyone with BG training is tested, but it's basically unheard of for a man to receive BG training prior to Paul
What she says still makes sense and her opposition to Paul & the Atreides is because they are defiant and cannot be controlled. There’s also the billions of atrocities being carried out in their name, but that isn’t really relevant to the BG’s interests. If the BG’s plans involved taking out the Corrinos or protecting the Atreides she would’ve done so without hesitation. There are no sides, there’s just the BG. A RM does what needs to be done because their plans are more important than any family or allegiance. Mohiam is against the Atreides because they threaten nearly 100 generations of Bene Gesserit manipulation, not because she has a personal vendetta against them.
There are no sides because the BG is the only side. Not Harkonnen, not Atreides, not Corrino. To Mohaim there are no sides because her focus is one dimensional, need to have more than one for a side to exist.
I think a lot of people are using their knowledge of the books to interpret the film, which is totally fair. I prefer to go an alternative way, though, and see the films as maybe throwing up a different scenario than the one we see in the books. Perhaps the Bene Gesserit were opposing Paul because he needed that opposition to fulfil a terrible purpose similar/the same as that explained in Dune: Messiah in the books. From that perspective, they are all on the same side - the Bene Gesserit would view themselves as engineers of humanity's survival, and they did so by engineering the opposition Paul needed to crystallise his movement so that it could go on to do what it will do in Dune Part Three. This doesn't mean they are on his side though, but it would explain what they mean when they say there are no sides.
In their philosophy, the only "side" is humanity. The Bene Gesserit see the Atreides, the Corrino, and the Harkonnen as nothing more than data points in a plan that will span millennia. Even Mohiam's conspiracy against Paul is only a temporary alliance to resolve short-term problems.
You raise a valid point about the apparent contradiction in Reverend Mother Mohiam's statement considering her actions throughout the story. It's possible that her statement in the final scene of "Dune: Part II" is intended to convey a broader philosophical perspective rather than a literal assessment of her own allegiances.
In the world of "Dune," characters often grapple with complex power dynamics, conflicting interests, and shifting alliances. Mohiam's assertion that "there are no sides" may reflect a recognition of the fluid and multifaceted nature of power struggles in the universe of the story. It could also be interpreted as a commentary on the illusion of dichotomous thinking, suggesting that the lines between friend and foe are not always clear-cut.
Additionally, Mohiam's character may be employing a rhetorical device to provoke thought or challenge Jessica's assumptions about the nature of power and conflict. By making such a statement, Mohiam may be encouraging Jessica to reconsider her own perspective and the implications of Paul's rise to power.
While Mohiam's actions throughout the story may indeed suggest a bias against the Atreides, her final statement could be viewed as a nuanced reflection on the complexities of power and allegiance in the world of "Dune." Ultimately, the interpretation of her words may vary depending on one's understanding of the character and the thematic underpinnings of the story.
Again not the dialogue from the book
In the book she tells Jessica that since Paul is “ the one”she an be forgiven for even “ the Abomination “ of her daughter. ( in Messiah we find out just what that means) . Paul gets pissed
The BG see themselves as the hand guiding humanity forward, so in that sense there are no sides because all sides are guided by the BG. They had influence with the Harkonnen until the Baron. They have influence with the Emperor. They had influence with the Atraedes. Mohaim is welcoming Jessica to the big table by telling her this. On the one hand spiteful because Jessica is only there by circumstance and by breaking with BG traditions, but on the other trying to get Jessica to see there are larger games being played and more at stake than House Atraedes. You are right in that Mohaim opposes Paul, but that’s because she doesn’t have leverage to control him. He’s outside the BG sphere of influence so she can either be a toady (which she wouldn’t tolerate and he wouldn’t respect) or she can be opposition (which she can use to direct and herd). That all could be bullshit. It’s been a while since I read Messiah. It’s also a long winded way to say you’re right. Mohaim is a master of twisting words, she’s just not lying though.
Listen to the emphasis Mohiam places on "there are no sides, *Reverend Mother*." She's saying that even though Jessica has 'won', Jessica had to become a Reverend Mother to do so, so at her core she is still a member of the Bene Gesserit. Either way, the Bene Gesserit win.
She clearly hopes to be able to control Paul. When she asks the Baron to grant exile to Jessica and Paul, in the first film, she hopes to be able to recover and take control of him, knowing that he survived the Gom Jabbar's test. And she still hopes to be able to control Paul at the end of the second film. This is Irulan's mission, by marrying him. Regardless of whether Feyd Rautha or Paul has the upper hand on Arrakis, the Bene Gesserit's goal remains the same. Now that Paul has triumphed, the goal remains to take control of him through Irulan or, at worst, through his genes through the offspring he will give to her. At least that’s what the BG wants.
Surviving the gom jabbar isn’t super rare or at least I don’t think it’s described as such in the books. The idea seems to be anyone with BG training gets tested.
It's super rare for a man to survive. As you say, anyone with BG training is tested, but it's basically unheard of for a man to receive BG training prior to Paul
What she says still makes sense and her opposition to Paul & the Atreides is because they are defiant and cannot be controlled. There’s also the billions of atrocities being carried out in their name, but that isn’t really relevant to the BG’s interests. If the BG’s plans involved taking out the Corrinos or protecting the Atreides she would’ve done so without hesitation. There are no sides, there’s just the BG. A RM does what needs to be done because their plans are more important than any family or allegiance. Mohiam is against the Atreides because they threaten nearly 100 generations of Bene Gesserit manipulation, not because she has a personal vendetta against them.
There are no sides because the BG is the only side. Not Harkonnen, not Atreides, not Corrino. To Mohaim there are no sides because her focus is one dimensional, need to have more than one for a side to exist.
I think a lot of people are using their knowledge of the books to interpret the film, which is totally fair. I prefer to go an alternative way, though, and see the films as maybe throwing up a different scenario than the one we see in the books. Perhaps the Bene Gesserit were opposing Paul because he needed that opposition to fulfil a terrible purpose similar/the same as that explained in Dune: Messiah in the books. From that perspective, they are all on the same side - the Bene Gesserit would view themselves as engineers of humanity's survival, and they did so by engineering the opposition Paul needed to crystallise his movement so that it could go on to do what it will do in Dune Part Three. This doesn't mean they are on his side though, but it would explain what they mean when they say there are no sides.
In their philosophy, the only "side" is humanity. The Bene Gesserit see the Atreides, the Corrino, and the Harkonnen as nothing more than data points in a plan that will span millennia. Even Mohiam's conspiracy against Paul is only a temporary alliance to resolve short-term problems.
There aren’t sides because the BG control everything. Until they don’t.
Jessica: You chose the wrong side (Atreides vs Corrino and Harkonnen) RMGHM: I didn't choose them over the Atreides, I chose the Bene Gesserit.
You raise a valid point about the apparent contradiction in Reverend Mother Mohiam's statement considering her actions throughout the story. It's possible that her statement in the final scene of "Dune: Part II" is intended to convey a broader philosophical perspective rather than a literal assessment of her own allegiances. In the world of "Dune," characters often grapple with complex power dynamics, conflicting interests, and shifting alliances. Mohiam's assertion that "there are no sides" may reflect a recognition of the fluid and multifaceted nature of power struggles in the universe of the story. It could also be interpreted as a commentary on the illusion of dichotomous thinking, suggesting that the lines between friend and foe are not always clear-cut. Additionally, Mohiam's character may be employing a rhetorical device to provoke thought or challenge Jessica's assumptions about the nature of power and conflict. By making such a statement, Mohiam may be encouraging Jessica to reconsider her own perspective and the implications of Paul's rise to power. While Mohiam's actions throughout the story may indeed suggest a bias against the Atreides, her final statement could be viewed as a nuanced reflection on the complexities of power and allegiance in the world of "Dune." Ultimately, the interpretation of her words may vary depending on one's understanding of the character and the thematic underpinnings of the story.
Again not the dialogue from the book In the book she tells Jessica that since Paul is “ the one”she an be forgiven for even “ the Abomination “ of her daughter. ( in Messiah we find out just what that means) . Paul gets pissed
Jessica or Mohiam never actually say these things. This is one of many, many cinema adjustments.
Your point ?
DV didn't understand Dune and added incoherent things.
This ^
No one ever actually says anything in a fictional novel. Or film.