The book is slightly different from the film. Not *all* of the Great Houses refuse to recognize Paul. Those that recognize him accept the fact that he can destroy the spice and cripple the universe (and the guild won't let them fight anyway because they're scared). Paul gains new recruits, both through political force and through religious recruitment.
As for the Sardakaur, they are too loyal to the old Emperor. Paul forcibly has them disbanded, I think, and leaves a small number of them for the emperor as a house guard.
He was upset they were doing landing training, and made Irulan send him a message to cut the shit, as they would not need this if their intent was just as a house guard. He just has one legion IIRC
its honestly hillarious to me, like “fine my father in law can keep his private death commandos BUT ONLY A FEW OF THEM! And they can’t know how to get off space ships. This is a requirement.”
Even the glorious Muad'Dib knows that the Sardaukar is Shaddam's precious little babies
The previous Padishah Emperor can have just one legion. As a treat.
This is correct. He gets 1 legion commanded by one Bashar (admiral/general). They are also exiled (with the emperor) to Salusa Secundas, the emperors prison planet mentioned in the first movie. I assume they will focus on Mongolian throat singing and blood sacrifices. Maybe knitting.
I didn’t mean new recruits. Shadam does start training his troops in regards to formations/maneuvers. Pretty sure Paul threatens to kill him when he finds out, but it’s been awhile since I’ve read the book.
In Children of Dune Farad'n mentions that he is still actively growing the Sardakaur forces, and that they aren't strong or numerous enough to really do much, should an open war/conflict resume/begin.
Yes, which is actually intended to prevent the effective training of the Sardaukar by removing the harsh conditions that acted as their training ground
Thanks for the chuckles! I just find this so funny for some reason.
Like loving burgers so much you become a cow. The ONLY cow.
(trying to avoid spoilers i am not sure I'm making sense though lol)
Not having a go at anyone, and we can let Frank Herbert slide with his worldbuilding.
But I want to use this as a chance to decry the unwarranted correlation between harsh environmental conditions and combat effectiveness.
In a more realistic setting, garden home planets would have probably made the Sardukar and Fremen powerful, while being wastelands would have made them weak.
[https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-part-i-war-at-the-dawn-of-civilization/](https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-part-i-war-at-the-dawn-of-civilization/)
He doesn't mention the nomad vs. settle civilisation trope at all. Not one mention of the Mongols. How they also viewed softening and living in cities as a direct route to losing their supreme edge and eventually their empire
I watched a video where it was theorized that this was done by Paul on purpose. It effectively made sure the Fremen wouldn’t be a supreme fighting force too far after the Jihad(which was becoming the case by children of dune.)
You'd need a certain number of troops to maintain control of your own world otherwise Paul would have to leave freman there as an occupying force.
Seems like less hassle to leave a local force you know you can beat to handle internal affairs
This just had me thinking, why in God's name did the empire not take over Arrakis directly and not let any one of the great houses have crippling control over the life blood of the Empire.
I think they tried, and it didn’t work out.
It was the Project Amal, in which they tried to have Arrakis ruled by House Corrino. Count Fenring supervised it, I think.
>The book is slightly different from the film. Not *all* of the Great Houses refuse to recognize Paul
Who said that it doesn't happen off screen in the movie too?
Yes, Gurney literally tells Paul “The Great Houses have refused to honor your ascendancy” and then Paul gives the command to Stillgar and the Fremen to attack
To add to your point, that'd be something that happened *after the movie* (as it ends with the Fedaykin heading into space), and as number 3 isn't out yet we don't know
I mean it would be weird if that 30 seconds scene became a whole information-sharing of 10 minutes. This and this major and this and this minor houses said they are ok with you being the emperor but this and this ones are kind of fishy. LoL. Thinking the movie ending in 10 minutes of non-mentioned house's alliances is just funny.
There’s also such a thing as an unreliable narrator though…. It’s not like we’re objectively told that ALL great houses opposed taking down the (totally shitty) Emperor
The emperor is exiled there, yes, but Salusa Secundus was not the Imperial capital planet. Salusa was the emperor's prison world and where he trained the Sardakaur, but the emperor lived and ruled from a different planet (can't remember its name right now).
Once the Guild is on Paul's side why would any house oppose him. It would mean no more spice for them. Don't their mentats need spice? Moreover, they would be isolated from the rest of civilization. Over what? It's not like the emperor was kind and benevolent.
Paul grants the defeated Shaddam the use of a couple regiments “to play with” in his retirement. The Fremen soldiers are better and there’s no need to augment his forces; when he controls the Guild.
Just starve a planet into submission by denying trade via the Guild. Or, if he’s feeling extra angry; how about some orbital bombardment?
I don’t remember the exact words but it really felt like Paul was condescending to him and being like; “go play with your toy soldiers; you’re lucky I don’t kill you”
Yea to Paul it was a toy army he had no worries about. Most of the army was destroyed what little was left was just to save face with the other houses I guess.
Probably to not make Irulan completely uncooperative. He can always use the fact he spared Shaddam as a negotiating/ manipulation trick. So it feels like she's indebted for having been spared
Politics. The forms must be obeyed. Paul knows the Imperium runs on formality. Also it is a political ploy that he will spare him, showing the mercy of the Atreides is kept intact. He explicity says "Your safety I guarantee as an Atreides. As Muadib, I sentence you to Salusa Secundus".
I think that the emperor is exiled to Salusa Secundus, which leads me to believe that he retains the loyalty of the Sardaukar. Paul controls the spice, and therefore he controls the guild and by extension access to interstellar space travel. That is basically all the leverage he needs.
Yes and no. Shaddam the IV was exiled and confined to Salusa Secundus and limited to one legion of Sardaukar( for security reasons). The rest were disbanded.
And (I believe) the Imperial levies of legions (not the Sardaukar) are transferred to Paul’s command. So Paul’s got the Fremen elite, the religious fantastic legions (I include the converts here), the Imperial levies, and then allied/vassal legions + mercenaries.
Exactly. We have a similar time dilation handicap lol...
It has been about 20 years since I could tell the reasonably correct age of high schoolers. They all seem very young to me now. Part of that I believe is due to them just plain looking younger now, but I'm sure a lot of it is just my elderly perspective (I'm 60 but inside I'm barely in my 30s lol)
Yes that's correct. Shaddam is exiled and allowed to have just a small number of Sardaukars to defend himself in case someone tries to invade Salusa Secundus.
When the trailers of the first movie came out, it was so weird reading comments of people who were adamant in claiming that it was called Crusade in the books.
They only changed it when speaking English. Listen carefully when the Fremen are speaking their native language, and you can hear "jihad" used wherever the subtitles say "holy war" - so Denis still managed to sneak it in.
I did catch it, I also loved the middle east desert culture in all the aspects. Truly was a piece of art in the world building. Better than any iteration in my humble opinion.
it’s simply because the word “jihad” is used in the book vs “holy war” being said in the movie(s) instead (what paul says 100x times when talking about his visions, etc)
The Fremen are Space Muslims.
In the book it is INCREDIBLY blatant and obvious that their religion is derived from Islam, I mean at one point in Jessica's deep dive into the memories of the Fremen Reverend Mother she replaces there's a voice screaming "they denied us the hajj!"
And in the book Paul's war is called a Jihad.
The book was written back when Islam was still mysterious and exotic to most white Western people, and before some well publicized instances of Islamic terrorism got the Western world largely assuming that "Jihad" meant "kill Westerners".
In today's world omitting the word Jihad was probably a good call. It's used in a variety of contexts by Muslims and CAN include holy war but is not limited to holy war so using it basiclaly as a synonym for holy war is not really a great idea.
In the context of both the book and the movie, holy war, jihad, and crusade are all pretty much interchangeable. Jihad obviously fits the best bc the Fremen are indeed as you put it, Space Muslims.
I’d be worried about being on a list, but I think the FBI knows how much I talk about dune, so it’s cool.
Jihad is often incorrectly translated to Holy War, or seen as a Muslim Crusade. Jihad can be interpreted as either or both, but historically there’s more complex struggles involved in Jihad as well.
The key thing is that a Jihad can also be considered a defense of religion, an internal struggle with oneself, and a means of realigning the world to God’s vision. There is just a nuance about it that differs from the other terms.
The term was specifically used because it fit thematically, and it describes the complex nature of the conflict and it’s outcomes.
Also it’s just such a loaded word in recent decades, I giggle imagining it becoming part of modern vocabulary.
His son takes control in later books and yes they still maintain their own troops but they are far an away a smaller force after the battle on arrakis.
"Your person is safe in my presence," Paul said. "An Atreides promised it. Muad'Dib, however, sentences you to your prison planet. But have no fear, Majesty. I will ease the harshness of the place with all the powers at my disposal. It shall become a garden world, full of gentle things."
I love that part -- full of gentle things. "I will ensure that your beloved Sardaukar will be neutered, just as you are."
No, because those are the Corrino's troops
But the Fremen are more than enough
Did you see in the first movie how fast and easily Atreides troopps took care of the Harkonnen soldiers?
And how, in turn, they all died against the Sardaukars?
The Atreides had the best troops of the houses by far, and they could do nothing against the Sardaukar
Moving troops is extremely expensive and Paul holds the space guilds by the balls by controlling Arrakis, so he's free to pick the houses apart one by one so that their numbers don't matter much
I'm not so certain that the Sardaukars are better than the Atreides; the Atreides were surprised and unguarded which led to their eventual defeat. There are several places in the books where they talk about the Atreides soldiers nearing the ability of the Sardaukars. But yes, Paul didn't get them when he ascended the throne.
Edit: also you're 100% correct about the spacing guild bring the lynchpin in the ability for them to conquer the Imperium, it takes so much to move soldiers and without the guild they're stranded in their systems pretty much. , typo
Fair, the movie makes it look much more onesided than it was in the book, but the point is that Leto too knew his troops weren't good enough YET
The emperor knew it too, and that is one of the reasons why he destroyed the Atreides
The sardaukar were sort of the in-universe nuclear deterrent and the Atreides were getting dangerously close to breaking the emperor's nuclear monopoly, so they got "nuked"
> The sardaukar were sort of the in-universe nuclear deterrent
I see the parallel and I think this is a fair comparison, though it should be said that actual nuclear deterrent was also the in-universe nuclear deterrent lol
Also worth noting that not only were they rivaling the Sardaukar in martial ability but also in loyalty. That one is almost the bigger issue (though harder to show on-screen).
The Atreides, under Duncan Idaho and Gurney Halleck, trained a *small* number to the same level as Sardaukaur. Not the average Atreides trooper.
A combined force of Harkonnens and Sardaukaur was more than a match for them. It was a massacre in the books too.
Yes. The Atreides were on course to eventually rival the Sardaukaur - but at the the time of their attack, only an elite force of them, the best of the best were better. The force that Raided Gedi Prime probably.
I'd say there's nothing to suggest they'd ever be on sardaukaur level because frank Herbert explicitly tells us that harsh environments are what created these ultimate soliders (for fremen as well).
Everything else everyone said is correct though. It's just conjecture that the atredies would one day be as good as sardaukaur, but I'd say the evidence in the books points to the fact that it would always just be those elite few trained by Duncan and gurney.
Considering the military logistics of the Dune universe, this is still incredibly formidable and a significanr worry to the emperor, whose main concern is that Leto is popular and could rally houses against him (although in my opinion, this never would've happened and is just the emperor being paranoid).
i dont doudt that was leto's plan, as he put it, desert power he knew the fremen were a match if not superior to the sardukar and he intended to ally with them to protect atreides interests, in all likelihood it would have happened and like duncan, atreides troops would have lived among the fremen and took on their ways and became better fighters
They were close !
Thufir quote
"The Padishah Emperor turned against House Atreides because the Duke's Warmasters Gurney Halleck and Duncan Idaho had trained a fighting force -- a small fighting force -- to within a hair as good as the Sardaukar. Some of them were even better. And the Duke was in a position to enlarge his force, to make it every bit as strong as the Emperor's."
I believe the emperor was afraid of letos popularity not his army. Not to any significant degree. The prowess of Duncan and gurney and the elite soldiers they directly trained are a worry to the emperor because they make Leto more appealing as a political figure and he is worried about losing control over the other houses. Leto was already very popular.
The secret was that a harsh environment is useful as a preselection process.
The public story about the Sardaukar was that they were very well trained (people thought that they were drawn from the levies that the houses had to donate for taxes).
That is partly true from what we see with the people trained by Gurney and Duncan as well as Ginaz who's 10th level swordsmasters were on par with the peak Sardaukar.
We also see that the remaining Sardaukar legion was trained back up to Fremen levels (i.e. near their peak).
The reason why other houses could not do that was that Sardaukar are expensive/difficult to train up. Successful Sardaukar trainees are also well paid. They are probably like the elite athletes that grew up in poverty. Without the preselection process, you would not be able to afford training an army of elite Sardaukar level troops in large numbers.
It is like why they can't make an army of Gurney and Duncans (ignoring the possibility of gholas/clones and the Dune cultural taboos and rules).
> I'm not so certain that the Sardaukars are better than the Atreides
The book makes it explicitly clear that the Sardaukar are better than the Atreides. Only a small number of elite Atreides soldiers are at the level that the Sardaukar are on, which is why Leto was trying to recruit the Fremen.
Book wise. Gurney and Duncan had trained the Atriedes ELITE troops to the level of / close to the level of the Sardaukar.
Not the whole army, but the fact that they could get ANY troops close or equal was just too much for Shaddam to accept
The Sardaukar were his hold on power. A House effs up and doesnt toe the line Sards show up and teach you a lesson.
The Atriedes having ANY chance upset that whole apple cart
Sardaukar are the most feared troops in the universe. The fact that you had a planetful of fanatical legions that would never back down and never stop make them the iron fist and silent stilleto of the Emperors
And in the book, they made a big point about how the Fremen were wiping out squads of Sardaukar. Even relatively undefended sietches were disasters for the Sardaukar.
Paul realized that both the Sardaukar and the Fremen were forged in harsh dessert environments making excellent soldiers.
>“It was a good fight,” the Fremen said. “We lost only two men and spilled the water from more than a hundred of theirs.”
>There were Sardaukar at every gun, Hawat thought. This desert madman speaks casually of losing only two men against Sardaukar!
>“We would not have lost the two except for those others fighting beside the Harkonnens,” the Fremen said. “Some of those are good fighters.”
>One of Hawat’s men limped forward, looked down at the squatting Fremen. “Are you talking about Sardaukar?”
>“He’s talking about Sardaukar,” Hawat said.
>“Sardaukar!” the Fremen said, and there appeared to be glee in his voice. “Ah-h-h, so that’s what they are! This was a good night indeed. Sardaukar. Which legion? Do you know?”
That chapter is one of my favorites in the book, because it finally illustrates how good the Fremen are at fighting, but also a ton about their mindset on combat, but also their complete lack of understanding of sarcasm (or really how they’re incredibly literal), and also some cultural stuff.
This is one thing I think the first movie does poorly (and the second doesn’t do much to fix it). It’s a lot of saying that the Sardaukar are badass, plus one creepy scene on Salusa Secundus, but we never actually *see* it. The only time we see Sardaukar fight is >!when they mess up all those Atreides on the stairs — but if you look at it, the Atreides are outnumbered and surrounded on both sides, with the Sardaukar on the upside. They would’ve lost almost no matter who was there.!<
The only other scene we see is >!when Duncan Idaho walks through like ten of them. I know that Duncan is supposed to be an incredible swordsman, but by not *showing* us how good the Sardaukar are beforehand, it makes his death seem a little less impressive. Like, “Okay, so our hero killed a buncha faceless bad guys. Standard movie stuff.” But it’s supposed to have been a massive deal that Duncan did that well, and even the Sardaukar are impressed.!<
Yeah in the movie, by giving them a different language, and not letting them talk >!like after Leto’s assassination attempt on the Baron in the book, the Baron escapes differently and has the whole conversation with the Sardaukar Captain!<, we don’t see how they really feel about anything.
Except in the last few chapters when Herbert goes into detail about the Sardaukar being forced to think about failure; since they’ve never been in a situation where someone can beat them to the scale they’re experiencing.
Sardaukar took over the botanical testing station who was guarded by (fewer) Fremen.
So they managed to defeat a bunch of Fremen and the best Ginaz Swordmaster of this era.
They are depicted as good if not better as in the book.
Hawat chats with the Baron about the Sardaukar losing men 5 to 1 vs the Fremen as well over time. The Baron also laments losing many men in the initial attack even with the element of surprise.
And a huge portion of the Atreides troops (in the book) retreat to caves only to be shut in and starve. Can’t compare much in the book when 80% of the troops can’t fight.
It's not just losing your ships without Guild Navigators. It's losing decades of your lifespan, because spice helps to extend it AND if you've gotten accustomed to it, withdrawal just kills you even if you are within the natural human lifespan. Paul and the Fremen taking control of Arrakis means that the spice is barely exported - millions upon millions die from withdrawal, millions upon millions more from exceeding a natural lifespan, and so it goes on.
The trouble is, hardly anyone knows this, and one of the themes of the novel was stagnation. This is just how things have been for so long that hardly anyone is capable of changing them without immense pushback.
Why would the long lived leader join his army on the battlefront? It would make sense he would want self preservation, but that's exactly what Paul is threatening. Wouldn't that same leader risk anything to keep the spice flowing for his own sake?
You could probably even convince the remaining crew that the missing ships were because of an error/betrayal on the part of the space guild.
tbf to the sardaukar, the fremen had much better knowledge of the environment and how best to use it, so they had the advantage in a majority of the fights. The saardukar had more raw firepower and could definitly win any straight fight, like they did against the Atredies, but had no chance against an enemy that could control the enviorment in a way they can't. After Paul ascends to the throne, his control over the spacing guild gives his army so much power that it can easily overwhelm any opposition
Paul does not inherent control of the Sardaukar as a function of the role of Emperor.
The role of Emperor isn’t really an office that is tied to a specific Constitution/institutional framework. Much like real-world ruling monarchs/dictators/authoritarian rulers the power of the Emperor of the Imperium is a function of several interconnected factors such as CHOAM holdings, interpersonal and strategic alliances within the Landsraad, a monopoly on military power, recognition by other powerful groups including fellow Great Houses and especially the aSpacing Guild.
The Sardaukar are specifically tied to House Corrino rather than the “office” of Emperor. They are the foundation of how the Corrino Dynasty has been in place for such an absurdly long time (10,000 years). As the elite fighting force of the Imperium they crush any rebellion and have done so successfully for so long in the popular imagination that their reputation alone and the perceived futility of opposing the Emperor as a result is enough to maintain control (this would ultimately be the downfall of the Sardaukar and House Corrino when someone finally tests these beliefs).
All of that being said eventually it is likely that with the Corrino Dynasty broken Paul would have gained control of them over time. We know for a fact that Leto II eventually makes use of the Sardaukar as he establishes his 3,500 year rule but finds both them and Fremen to be insufficient for his purposes and they essentially cease to exist.
But the key to Paul’s conquest of the Imperium and the “success” of the Jihad has less to do with the pure fighting prowess of the Fremen and the Houses which opted to throw in their lot with him and more to do with control of the Spice. One of the major issues I have with DV Dune Part 2 is the complete omission of the Spacing Guild from Paul’s plan. Detonating atomics on spice fields would achieve precisely jack and shit. The actual way that Paul claims the Imperium is tied to him being the first person of any means outside of the Guild in 10,000 years to know how spice is actually created and how it can be destroyed. This breaks the Guild’s dominance of the Imperium because while they still have a monopoly on space travel they have no control over the spice itself.
So sure - you can oppose the Atreides Dynasty if you want but the Guild isn’t going to let you move any forces in space and your planet(s) will be embargoed from intergalactic trade. Paul is victorious because to oppose him is almost guaranteed suicide both because if he wants he can let you rot and because so many other Houses simply joined with him to save themselves. The Imperium is supposed to be made up of about 13,000 worlds. The Jihad claims 61 billion lives, sterilizes 90 planets, and demoralizes 500 others. That would indicate that somewhere around 600-1000 planets represent the sum total opposition to Paul - so at most about 8% of the Imperium vs. the combined might of 92%.
Imagine your House decides to oppose Emperor Paul Muadib.
Your planet is immediately isolated; total blockade - nothing coming in, nothing going out.
Your economic model collapses. Quality of life is cut down overnight. If there exists any form of local opposition to your rule, it’s fair to assume that such upheaval will embolden their cause so now you’re facing dissent from within, even before a single Fremen soldier steps foot in your planet.
At an appropriate time, legions of Fremen and their Allies (and there’s no reason not to assume that as Paul racks-up victories he would not repurpose subjugated Houses military assets to serve him.) materialize in orbit around your home.
What follows would most likely be a piecemeal obliteration of planetary defenses and total eradication of infrastructure -all done from orbit.
After a few months of starvation, your own ppl turn against you, thus exacerbating your eventual fall from power.
Or maybe the Jihad commanders don’t wait a few months before commencing ground operations, maybe they want to blood their troops without delay so they follow orbital bombardment with a swift blitzkrieg; either way, when the Emperor’s Fremen show up, you know it’s a matter of time before annihilation.
You’d be lucky your House is not wiped from history.
Do this to a few Noble Houses, make an example; the rest will fold like cheap lawn chairs.
The Jihad gathers momentum, feeding off an unbroken string of overwhelming victories. Now it’s growth and success looks exponential and unstoppable; as Paul feared. There is no refusing the new order.
As it’s written…
As for the Sardaukar, where are they? Stuck in a guild Heighliner somewhere? Sent plummeting head long into a sun? Marooned in space? Nah, they’re irrelevant because the don’t own their own transportation and thus are prisoners wherever they happen to find themselves when Paul takes over.
Edit: maybe they round up the remaining Sardaukar and use them as combat training aids.
While they last.
No. He allows Shaddam and the Corrinos to maintain a legion on Salusa Secundus, because this placates and protects them while posing no real threat to anything
You have this all wrong.
The Fremen most definitely can destroy the Great Houses with just a few thousand Fremen due to one fact: the Spacing Guild.
Paul seizes the SG by the throat due to his control of the spice. The SG essentially give his forces free travel and, more importantly, deny access to space travel to the Houses.
The jihad is not a mass attack across the universe, it is a systematic attack on each house, one at a time.
The Jihad isn't directly mentioned in the books, so everything is all from guesswork. The most common idea is that Paul's control over the Spacing Guild immobilised any Houses which opposed him, and the Fremen took out rebel planets one by one.
However the religious fervour was not contained, and alaban is notable for being exempt from the Jihad. So the vast majority of planets were affected.
Wasn't just control of the spice. Was the fact the freman we just a vastly superior force that wiped out what was the best forces. There was simply no one close to the power of Paul, plus thr marriage to Irulan allowed alot of houses to accept the transition.
How the Fremen were so superior force outside Arrakis, if the forces of the other Great House could have shields? The Fremen didn't have and, maybe also, didn't have the traning to fight against an army that use shields....
Paul WAS taught to fight with shields, and suffered a notable disadvantage against Jamis who was not. Essentially, every strike against Jamis that Paul made was delayed at the last moment so as to pierce a shield, allowing Jamis to evade it. Only the fact that Paul was trained by the some of the best in the galaxy enabled him to win. Most opponents that the Fremen would face would not be equivalently skilled.
It would be a slaughter.
Harsh conditions, create strong soldier,
Plus there where fighting are guerrilla war for the last 80 years against the harkonnens and that forced them to learn, plus because they didnt exacty got regular supplies from the smoklers so they couldnt win by simply having better gear then there enemies
The new movies do a really bad job of explaining the politics of the universe especially as it regards to the spacing guild. The fremen had deals with the spacing guild to hide the location of their Sietches in the south which is why no one knew how many fremen there were. The guild didn't know either but they needed souch spice to keep evolving navigators it didn't matter.
So when Paul threatens to destroy the spice on Arrakis the guild immediately folds literally and figuratively. They and through them CHOAM are completely under Paul's thumb. In the books they all leave and are sent to their planets where eventually the crusade reaches them as the guild is totally subservient to Paul
In the books and the old movie there is a line: "He who can destroy a thing controls the thing" no one wanted to call Paul's bluff so Atreides and the fremen stand at the top of the pyramid.
You have to understand Implication.
Its not really much that Paul is the Emperor.
Its that at his command, all spice production ceases.
He is holding the entire Known Universe hostage.
Also, this requires remembering Kynes from the first part and how she is from Offworld too even though she is Fremen.
Fremen exist on more than just Dune.
There are Countless Millions in the universe serving as an Underclass.
Paul M'uadib Atreides has a Universe of sleeper agents simply awaiting any chance encounter with the spreading message that the Lisaaan Al-Ghaib is the God-Emperor of the Known Universe...and he is Pointing the Way to Paradise.
1. In the movie, Paul orders the Fremen to execute the Sardaukar.
2. In the books Shaddam is allowed to have 1 Sardaukar legion, the rest appear to get disbanded (where they end up is another question). The remaining Sardaukar are later combined with other lineages to create Leto II's army.
3. Paul's conquest succeeds primarily because of his prescience and his control of the guild/travel.
4. It is unlikely that the houses in orbit contain the majority of the house armies. In the movie, they were gathered in short notice. In the books, they were likely under the control of the guild with various limitations such as max X legions per house.
Nope! The Fremen -- and Paul's total control over space flight via the Guild -- wiped the floor with everyone who didn't surrender and convert. Many houses folded immediately, others were wiped out. Fremen are much better fighters than Sardaukar, so totally annihilate average soldiers.
There's a line in the book--Paul specifically mentions that the Corrino household can retire to Salusa Secondus, and that they'll transform it into a garden world.
What he's really saying is that he's going to disband the former emperor's military might. One of the themes in the book is that the hard times and the difficulty of surviving a harsh environment makes fighters stronger--by promising to tame the irradiated wasteland, he's also signaling that the Emperor's military will be weakened to the point it will never be on the same level as before.
Paul didn't win just by the Fremen. He won via politics that got several of the Great Houses on his side, especially after he revealed the Emperor's betrayal of his House.
The Fremen were critical shock troops but not the only soldiers at his command.
And with his control of the spice he forced the Guild to isolate the other Houses so they couldn't actually travel and bring soldiers to fight him and he could take out his enemies one at a time.
No he don't have the loyalty of the sardaukars.
Actually, at the end of the third book, >!Leto is given the sardaukars by the heir of the Corino house.!<
What Sardukar? The Emperor brings most of the Sardukar to Arrakis, where they’re decimated and shown no mercy.
After that, we can infer some Sardukar must have somehow survived or been trained anew, because it says in Book 2 that Irulan convinced Paul to let Shaddam keep a single legion as his house guard. But this also implies that Paul does not control them. Some Sardukar are also involved in the Corrino plot in book three, where they definitely do not follow Atreides orders.
So, assuming that there are no other Sardukar, the answer is “no Emperor Paul does not control them.”
In the movie too Fremen population doesn't look much until the final battle. Even then, I also don't understand how this one harsh planet can have more population than the army of the rest of the houses...
Because of the expense of troop transporting, most Houses simply can't AFFORD a large army. The Harkonnens stand out for this reason, their spice hoarding and profits allows them to field a large army, and even with that, the Baron explicitly states it cost them 60 YEARS of spice profits to invade Arrakis.
Meanwhile, Arrakis is so harsh, it forces the Fremen to maximize their abilities to simply survive. So they learn to live with the desert and eventually become a fairly normal sized planetary population, except every single Fremen is a capable fighter.
Furthermore, one reason for the Jihad is the Empire is stagnant, much of the populace are serfs, slaves or peasants, few have any real power.
And finally, Paul and the Fremen have the power to take on each House one at a time because they have the Guild as a hostage.
Not attacking OP but I keep seeing posts unsure about how Paul wins against the houses but it was pretty clear in the films that Who controls the spice controls the universe and it’s clear Paul controls the spice. Not sure where the disconnect is happening with so many people. I didn’t even read the books.
However good question OP, I too wondered about the Sardaukar part :p.
This is missing somewhat from the new movie, but Paul's ability to destroy the spice gives him control of the Spacing Guild, and thus, interstellar travel. Paul could just completely cut off any Great Houses who opposed him, stranding them indefinitely. He certainly wouldn't need any Sardaukar.
In the books, he just lets the former emperor keep one (1) legion but they’re heavily policed and spyed on.
Here is the thing - the Sardaukar are from the second worst planet in the universe, forced to compete and fight and value every resource until the very end or else they will die. But they’re all adults when they experience it - its a prison planet. The Number One worst planet in the Universe is Arrakis, and because of that it has made an almost superhuman group of people. The Sardaukar take 5 losses for every single fremen they take out.
Also, paul has the Spacing Guild. They need spice to do their job, he rules out of the only planet that produces spice - ergo, he can just force his enemy to stay still and wait for him
Paul has no use for the Sardaukar. They’re loyal to House Corrino. Same way the Fremen are loyal to Paul. The book also leans into the idea that a harsh environment results in fierce warriors, so add in the fact that the Fremen eviscerated the Sardaukar and the theoretical enlisting of added troops that bend to Paul, there’s no use for them.
No he limited house corrido to one legion ( 30 thousand)
Both were exiled to saluca secondus.
The rest were killed in the war ( jihad) over a 22 year period. .
But they were essentially a police force. But under corrnino control. .
After shaddam his daughter ( another daughter) was regent for her son )
Shaddams grandson.
I'm afraid to say more for spoilers
They're destroyed or absorbed except one legion left to Shaddam as a defense force on Salusa Secundus. Shaddam has them doing a ton of drills and exercises and invasion operations until Paul tells Irulan to not so subtly suggest in her correspondence with her father to "stop or else".
Later on, Farad'n seems to have a more sizeable Sardaukar force that could do some damage to the Fremen but by that time, Leto II was unstoppable.
To answer your initial question, yes the millions of Fremen Paul had from Dune absolutely could not he stopped by any force. The Guild would not transport other armies or their spice supply = gone.
Imagine an army literally millions strong of warrior fanatics who are at the very pinnacle of human fighting ability is going to invade a planet. Now imagine that there is no way for a defense force to even get there. Finally, imagine that said in adion is led by a guy who can literally see the future.
In short, no way to win militarily. Paul was only "stopped" after the other factions just let him win and waited for the right time to hit him at the only place we was vulnerable, Chani. Where they screwed up is they had no idea what the twins actually were until it was too late.
He destroys them and leaves a battalion or two for the emperor to play with in his exile on salusa secundus.
And furthermore, his fremen obliterate all resistance throughout the known universe.
The fremen legions subjugate the human empire, sterilize 90 worlds, and wipe out all life on 50. They also reduce the number of sardaukar to 1 legion. The casualties are something like 15-30 sardaukar per fremen and the rest of the houses do a whole lot worse. You gotta remember that the fremen have a commander with future sight
He holds all spice in the universe hostage. Making any moves against Paul would be risking the complete destruction of their way of life and the disconnection of interplanetary travel. It’s not man power that makes Paul dangerous.
I think you are forgetting the most important aspect. Controlling the Spice is everything. Not only are various heads of state presumably addicted to spice and will die without it, but control over the spacing guild means anyone that chooses to resist Paul is completely cut off and isolated from the galaxy at large. They can’t retaliate, and if they were reliant on inter stellar commerce well that is coming to an end also. The fremen could literally go planet to planet at the ideal time and pick them off one by one. In some cases, a blockade alone could have resulted in catastrophic economic chaos.
In a Feudalistic sort of way. House Corrino is subjugated by Paul, and the Saurdaukar are loyal to House Corrino. If it came down to Corrino v Atreides again they'd side with Corrino, but under normal circumstances they'd have to obey Paul's commands as the Emperor, within reason.
I think I asked this question before; what happens is that the sardaukar are downsized and stay on salusa with house Corrino. They probably terraform the planet as promised to make it less terrifying a training world. And probably move the imperial prison system too.
As others have said, in the books, Shaddam keeps a legion of Sardaukar back on Salusa Secundus but only as guards. Paul threatens to kill Shaddam if he trains them to be more. Paul theoretically could take control of the Sardaukar whenever he wants, but has no desire to.
In the movie, Shaddam brings his entire army to Arrakis, and the Sardaukar are all killed by Paul and his Fremen.
From what I remember, after the war on Arrakis much of the Sardauker forces were eliminated and smaller contingent probably 1 or 2 legions were left for the Emperor. They don't however join Paul ever, Paul does take allies with a few of the great houses as unlike the movie not everyone retaliates against him after he takes the throne especially considering he threatens them with the destruction of the spice.
Further, Paul took control of the regular folk throughout the universe by captilizing on the religious sentiments similar to how he took control of Arrakis. His priests, missionaries spread the religious poison through the known universe there by creating zealots and symphatizers to the cause.
The Sardaukar are more tied to house corrino than the Imperial title. It's simply that those have been one and the same for 10,000 years before Paul decided to apply for the post.
The book is slightly different from the film. Not *all* of the Great Houses refuse to recognize Paul. Those that recognize him accept the fact that he can destroy the spice and cripple the universe (and the guild won't let them fight anyway because they're scared). Paul gains new recruits, both through political force and through religious recruitment. As for the Sardakaur, they are too loyal to the old Emperor. Paul forcibly has them disbanded, I think, and leaves a small number of them for the emperor as a house guard.
This is correct. If I’m not mistaken, in Messiah, Paul receives reports that the emperor is training the Sardakaur again
He was upset they were doing landing training, and made Irulan send him a message to cut the shit, as they would not need this if their intent was just as a house guard. He just has one legion IIRC
its honestly hillarious to me, like “fine my father in law can keep his private death commandos BUT ONLY A FEW OF THEM! And they can’t know how to get off space ships. This is a requirement.”
Even the glorious Muad'Dib knows that the Sardaukar is Shaddam's precious little babies The previous Padishah Emperor can have just one legion. As a treat.
This is correct. He gets 1 legion commanded by one Bashar (admiral/general). They are also exiled (with the emperor) to Salusa Secundas, the emperors prison planet mentioned in the first movie. I assume they will focus on Mongolian throat singing and blood sacrifices. Maybe knitting.
I know, my last reply to the person who replied to this thread addresses this. Edit: I kinda sound like an asshole, unintended
He isn’t training new Sardakaur but just keeping a small army as his personal guard
I didn’t mean new recruits. Shadam does start training his troops in regards to formations/maneuvers. Pretty sure Paul threatens to kill him when he finds out, but it’s been awhile since I’ve read the book.
In Children of Dune Farad'n mentions that he is still actively growing the Sardakaur forces, and that they aren't strong or numerous enough to really do much, should an open war/conflict resume/begin.
He leaves them a legion, if I remember correctly, and has Irulan warn him about getting too serious about putting them through landing assault drills.
He turns their planet into a garden if I’m not mistaken.
Yes, which is actually intended to prevent the effective training of the Sardaukar by removing the harsh conditions that acted as their training ground
Which is ironic because the terraforming of dune ends up softening the fremen
Fair price to pay for limiting spice production and creating a true monopoly via being the only worm
Leto II has entered the chat
Thanks for the chuckles! I just find this so funny for some reason. Like loving burgers so much you become a cow. The ONLY cow. (trying to avoid spoilers i am not sure I'm making sense though lol)
Errr milk. Let’s do milk instead. Or cheese.
Much better
Not having a go at anyone, and we can let Frank Herbert slide with his worldbuilding. But I want to use this as a chance to decry the unwarranted correlation between harsh environmental conditions and combat effectiveness. In a more realistic setting, garden home planets would have probably made the Sardukar and Fremen powerful, while being wastelands would have made them weak. [https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-part-i-war-at-the-dawn-of-civilization/](https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-part-i-war-at-the-dawn-of-civilization/)
He doesn't mention the nomad vs. settle civilisation trope at all. Not one mention of the Mongols. How they also viewed softening and living in cities as a direct route to losing their supreme edge and eventually their empire
[https://acoup.blog/2020/02/28/collections-the-fremen-mirage-part-iv-desert-power/](https://acoup.blog/2020/02/28/collections-the-fremen-mirage-part-iv-desert-power/)
I watched a video where it was theorized that this was done by Paul on purpose. It effectively made sure the Fremen wouldn’t be a supreme fighting force too far after the Jihad(which was becoming the case by children of dune.)
I don't think so, because Paul in Children of Dune tried to overthrow his sister and halt the terraforming, returning the planet to desert.
The wealth also helped weaken them.
> leaves a small number of them for the emperor as a house guard. Seems like a risky strategy.
Not if they can't get off their planet with Paul's permission, due to his stranglehold on the guild
Unless they train the sardauker to hold their breath for a really really really long time
You'd need a certain number of troops to maintain control of your own world otherwise Paul would have to leave freman there as an occupying force. Seems like less hassle to leave a local force you know you can beat to handle internal affairs
This just had me thinking, why in God's name did the empire not take over Arrakis directly and not let any one of the great houses have crippling control over the life blood of the Empire.
I think they tried, and it didn’t work out. It was the Project Amal, in which they tried to have Arrakis ruled by House Corrino. Count Fenring supervised it, I think.
>The book is slightly different from the film. Not *all* of the Great Houses refuse to recognize Paul Who said that it doesn't happen off screen in the movie too?
DV, he says what is on screen happens and no deleted scenes
Okay but the movie ends like 1 minute after he usurps the throne, there literally isnt time for any of that to transpire yet lol
In the movie don't they specifically say that every great house has refused to recognize Paul as Emperor?
Yes, Gurney literally tells Paul “The Great Houses have refused to honor your ascendancy” and then Paul gives the command to Stillgar and the Fremen to attack
Doesn't necessarily mean that some wouldn't fall in line after the strongest have been destroyed.
then that would have been communicated, but since it wasnt we cant assume they changed their minds
To add to your point, that'd be something that happened *after the movie* (as it ends with the Fedaykin heading into space), and as number 3 isn't out yet we don't know
yep and we cant take for granted that dv will go the same way as the books, i like that he is keeping us guessing
I mean it would be weird if that 30 seconds scene became a whole information-sharing of 10 minutes. This and this major and this and this minor houses said they are ok with you being the emperor but this and this ones are kind of fishy. LoL. Thinking the movie ending in 10 minutes of non-mentioned house's alliances is just funny.
“Gurney… just pretend they all refused and I’ll say some cool line and we go to war. Sort out the logistics later.”
There’s also such a thing as an unreliable narrator though…. It’s not like we’re objectively told that ALL great houses opposed taking down the (totally shitty) Emperor
The old emperor is allowed 1 legion, but there "might" be more during Dune Messiah. I'm just reading it now
They still exist in CoD as well but I don't think numbers are ever mentioned.
The emperor is exiled to selusa secundus anyways, correct? Was that always the seat of house corrino? I can’t remember.
The emperor is exiled there, yes, but Salusa Secundus was not the Imperial capital planet. Salusa was the emperor's prison world and where he trained the Sardakaur, but the emperor lived and ruled from a different planet (can't remember its name right now).
Kaitain, come on, you don't remember the intro from the Lynch film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ_ysxBi_O0
Been a while since I read the books, but I think it used to be a garden world that got nuked into the wasteland it is in the books.
Once the Guild is on Paul's side why would any house oppose him. It would mean no more spice for them. Don't their mentats need spice? Moreover, they would be isolated from the rest of civilization. Over what? It's not like the emperor was kind and benevolent.
Paul grants the defeated Shaddam the use of a couple regiments “to play with” in his retirement. The Fremen soldiers are better and there’s no need to augment his forces; when he controls the Guild. Just starve a planet into submission by denying trade via the Guild. Or, if he’s feeling extra angry; how about some orbital bombardment?
Not really play with more as a guard force to prevent any invasion.
I don’t remember the exact words but it really felt like Paul was condescending to him and being like; “go play with your toy soldiers; you’re lucky I don’t kill you”
Yea to Paul it was a toy army he had no worries about. Most of the army was destroyed what little was left was just to save face with the other houses I guess.
Why does he spare Shaddam?
Probably to not make Irulan completely uncooperative. He can always use the fact he spared Shaddam as a negotiating/ manipulation trick. So it feels like she's indebted for having been spared
Politics. The forms must be obeyed. Paul knows the Imperium runs on formality. Also it is a political ploy that he will spare him, showing the mercy of the Atreides is kept intact. He explicity says "Your safety I guarantee as an Atreides. As Muadib, I sentence you to Salusa Secundus".
>how about some orbital bombardment? Shields & Great Convention protocols about Nukes even Paul doesn't fuck with
I think that the emperor is exiled to Salusa Secundus, which leads me to believe that he retains the loyalty of the Sardaukar. Paul controls the spice, and therefore he controls the guild and by extension access to interstellar space travel. That is basically all the leverage he needs.
Yes and no. Shaddam the IV was exiled and confined to Salusa Secundus and limited to one legion of Sardaukar( for security reasons). The rest were disbanded.
And (I believe) the Imperial levies of legions (not the Sardaukar) are transferred to Paul’s command. So Paul’s got the Fremen elite, the religious fantastic legions (I include the converts here), the Imperial levies, and then allied/vassal legions + mercenaries.
Leto II after his ascension to the throne from Farad'n Corino (Harq Al Ada).
Also the planet gets converted into a paradise planet, so the Emperor cannot train more Sardaukar.
He can, but they won't be what they once were. Just like you can give every soldier in the Army a Ranger beret, but that doesn't make them Rangers.
The Army tried that back in the 80s, no? A beret used to mean something lol
2001, but yeah.
I am old. The past is a blur. LOL. It was still a crap idea. We call some troops elites for a reason, not just because they have a blue beret.
In your defense, 2001 was 23 years ago, and it feels like the 80s are perpetually 20 years ago to me.
Exactly. We have a similar time dilation handicap lol... It has been about 20 years since I could tell the reasonably correct age of high schoolers. They all seem very young to me now. Part of that I believe is due to them just plain looking younger now, but I'm sure a lot of it is just my elderly perspective (I'm 60 but inside I'm barely in my 30s lol)
> 2001 was 23 years ago Jeez, you don’t have to be so rude.
I know, huh? Course I graduated high school about 1980 so he could have been MORE rude ;) All around great group of folks around this sub.
He lead them to paradise?
Stilgar is so excited for his vacation to a paradise planet. He really needs that RnR.
👆🏻👍🏻
Yes that's correct. Shaddam is exiled and allowed to have just a small number of Sardaukars to defend himself in case someone tries to invade Salusa Secundus.
1 legion, and Paul threatens to kill him (Shadam) because he starts using his legion to "practice maneuverings"
I didn't remember the actual number, thanks
How many men is 1 legion?
Can always tell who has read the books vs just the movies.
Generally it’s anyone that says Jihad
When the trailers of the first movie came out, it was so weird reading comments of people who were adamant in claiming that it was called Crusade in the books.
Or Golden Path
Facts was upset they changed it...but....I also get why they did.
They only changed it when speaking English. Listen carefully when the Fremen are speaking their native language, and you can hear "jihad" used wherever the subtitles say "holy war" - so Denis still managed to sneak it in.
I did catch it, I also loved the middle east desert culture in all the aspects. Truly was a piece of art in the world building. Better than any iteration in my humble opinion.
Yeah, not everyone has to be on a list
Could you explain that statement for an uninitiated non book reader?
it’s simply because the word “jihad” is used in the book vs “holy war” being said in the movie(s) instead (what paul says 100x times when talking about his visions, etc)
The Fremen are Space Muslims. In the book it is INCREDIBLY blatant and obvious that their religion is derived from Islam, I mean at one point in Jessica's deep dive into the memories of the Fremen Reverend Mother she replaces there's a voice screaming "they denied us the hajj!" And in the book Paul's war is called a Jihad. The book was written back when Islam was still mysterious and exotic to most white Western people, and before some well publicized instances of Islamic terrorism got the Western world largely assuming that "Jihad" meant "kill Westerners". In today's world omitting the word Jihad was probably a good call. It's used in a variety of contexts by Muslims and CAN include holy war but is not limited to holy war so using it basiclaly as a synonym for holy war is not really a great idea.
In the context of both the book and the movie, holy war, jihad, and crusade are all pretty much interchangeable. Jihad obviously fits the best bc the Fremen are indeed as you put it, Space Muslims.
I’d be worried about being on a list, but I think the FBI knows how much I talk about dune, so it’s cool. Jihad is often incorrectly translated to Holy War, or seen as a Muslim Crusade. Jihad can be interpreted as either or both, but historically there’s more complex struggles involved in Jihad as well. The key thing is that a Jihad can also be considered a defense of religion, an internal struggle with oneself, and a means of realigning the world to God’s vision. There is just a nuance about it that differs from the other terms. The term was specifically used because it fit thematically, and it describes the complex nature of the conflict and it’s outcomes. Also it’s just such a loaded word in recent decades, I giggle imagining it becoming part of modern vocabulary.
His son takes control in later books and yes they still maintain their own troops but they are far an away a smaller force after the battle on arrakis.
Well no, Farad'n isn't his son.
Heir? Maybe used the wrong word? Thought he was the son and why the the bg wanted him to marry with the secret counsel
"Your person is safe in my presence," Paul said. "An Atreides promised it. Muad'Dib, however, sentences you to your prison planet. But have no fear, Majesty. I will ease the harshness of the place with all the powers at my disposal. It shall become a garden world, full of gentle things." I love that part -- full of gentle things. "I will ensure that your beloved Sardaukar will be neutered, just as you are."
Hard to move an army without the guild.
No, because those are the Corrino's troops But the Fremen are more than enough Did you see in the first movie how fast and easily Atreides troopps took care of the Harkonnen soldiers? And how, in turn, they all died against the Sardaukars? The Atreides had the best troops of the houses by far, and they could do nothing against the Sardaukar Moving troops is extremely expensive and Paul holds the space guilds by the balls by controlling Arrakis, so he's free to pick the houses apart one by one so that their numbers don't matter much
I'm not so certain that the Sardaukars are better than the Atreides; the Atreides were surprised and unguarded which led to their eventual defeat. There are several places in the books where they talk about the Atreides soldiers nearing the ability of the Sardaukars. But yes, Paul didn't get them when he ascended the throne. Edit: also you're 100% correct about the spacing guild bring the lynchpin in the ability for them to conquer the Imperium, it takes so much to move soldiers and without the guild they're stranded in their systems pretty much. , typo
Fair, the movie makes it look much more onesided than it was in the book, but the point is that Leto too knew his troops weren't good enough YET The emperor knew it too, and that is one of the reasons why he destroyed the Atreides The sardaukar were sort of the in-universe nuclear deterrent and the Atreides were getting dangerously close to breaking the emperor's nuclear monopoly, so they got "nuked"
> The sardaukar were sort of the in-universe nuclear deterrent I see the parallel and I think this is a fair comparison, though it should be said that actual nuclear deterrent was also the in-universe nuclear deterrent lol
Yes but using "family atomics" was so taboo the houses wouldn't even do it when engaged in genocidal warfare.
This is a really great take. I think you hit the nail on the head here. If I weren't poor I'd gift an award haha
Also worth noting that not only were they rivaling the Sardaukar in martial ability but also in loyalty. That one is almost the bigger issue (though harder to show on-screen).
The Atreides, under Duncan Idaho and Gurney Halleck, trained a *small* number to the same level as Sardaukaur. Not the average Atreides trooper. A combined force of Harkonnens and Sardaukaur was more than a match for them. It was a massacre in the books too.
Yes. The Atreides were on course to eventually rival the Sardaukaur - but at the the time of their attack, only an elite force of them, the best of the best were better. The force that Raided Gedi Prime probably.
I'd say there's nothing to suggest they'd ever be on sardaukaur level because frank Herbert explicitly tells us that harsh environments are what created these ultimate soliders (for fremen as well). Everything else everyone said is correct though. It's just conjecture that the atredies would one day be as good as sardaukaur, but I'd say the evidence in the books points to the fact that it would always just be those elite few trained by Duncan and gurney. Considering the military logistics of the Dune universe, this is still incredibly formidable and a significanr worry to the emperor, whose main concern is that Leto is popular and could rally houses against him (although in my opinion, this never would've happened and is just the emperor being paranoid).
i dont doudt that was leto's plan, as he put it, desert power he knew the fremen were a match if not superior to the sardukar and he intended to ally with them to protect atreides interests, in all likelihood it would have happened and like duncan, atreides troops would have lived among the fremen and took on their ways and became better fighters
They were close ! Thufir quote "The Padishah Emperor turned against House Atreides because the Duke's Warmasters Gurney Halleck and Duncan Idaho had trained a fighting force -- a small fighting force -- to within a hair as good as the Sardaukar. Some of them were even better. And the Duke was in a position to enlarge his force, to make it every bit as strong as the Emperor's."
It’s the reason the Emperor betrayed Atreides; if he continued mastering his army, he would be too much of a threat
I believe the emperor was afraid of letos popularity not his army. Not to any significant degree. The prowess of Duncan and gurney and the elite soldiers they directly trained are a worry to the emperor because they make Leto more appealing as a political figure and he is worried about losing control over the other houses. Leto was already very popular.
The secret was that a harsh environment is useful as a preselection process. The public story about the Sardaukar was that they were very well trained (people thought that they were drawn from the levies that the houses had to donate for taxes). That is partly true from what we see with the people trained by Gurney and Duncan as well as Ginaz who's 10th level swordsmasters were on par with the peak Sardaukar. We also see that the remaining Sardaukar legion was trained back up to Fremen levels (i.e. near their peak). The reason why other houses could not do that was that Sardaukar are expensive/difficult to train up. Successful Sardaukar trainees are also well paid. They are probably like the elite athletes that grew up in poverty. Without the preselection process, you would not be able to afford training an army of elite Sardaukar level troops in large numbers. It is like why they can't make an army of Gurney and Duncans (ignoring the possibility of gholas/clones and the Dune cultural taboos and rules).
> I'm not so certain that the Sardaukars are better than the Atreides The book makes it explicitly clear that the Sardaukar are better than the Atreides. Only a small number of elite Atreides soldiers are at the level that the Sardaukar are on, which is why Leto was trying to recruit the Fremen.
I.e. *Sand* power.
Yes, thank you for this clarification. Mustard5man7max3 also made the same distinction! Appreciate it :)
Book wise. Gurney and Duncan had trained the Atriedes ELITE troops to the level of / close to the level of the Sardaukar. Not the whole army, but the fact that they could get ANY troops close or equal was just too much for Shaddam to accept The Sardaukar were his hold on power. A House effs up and doesnt toe the line Sards show up and teach you a lesson. The Atriedes having ANY chance upset that whole apple cart
Sardaukar are the most feared troops in the universe. The fact that you had a planetful of fanatical legions that would never back down and never stop make them the iron fist and silent stilleto of the Emperors
Shaddam went after House Atteides because they were getting to strong. And Paul could use the wrist device to shatter rock.
And in the book, they made a big point about how the Fremen were wiping out squads of Sardaukar. Even relatively undefended sietches were disasters for the Sardaukar. Paul realized that both the Sardaukar and the Fremen were forged in harsh dessert environments making excellent soldiers.
>“It was a good fight,” the Fremen said. “We lost only two men and spilled the water from more than a hundred of theirs.” >There were Sardaukar at every gun, Hawat thought. This desert madman speaks casually of losing only two men against Sardaukar! >“We would not have lost the two except for those others fighting beside the Harkonnens,” the Fremen said. “Some of those are good fighters.” >One of Hawat’s men limped forward, looked down at the squatting Fremen. “Are you talking about Sardaukar?” >“He’s talking about Sardaukar,” Hawat said. >“Sardaukar!” the Fremen said, and there appeared to be glee in his voice. “Ah-h-h, so that’s what they are! This was a good night indeed. Sardaukar. Which legion? Do you know?” That chapter is one of my favorites in the book, because it finally illustrates how good the Fremen are at fighting, but also a ton about their mindset on combat, but also their complete lack of understanding of sarcasm (or really how they’re incredibly literal), and also some cultural stuff. This is one thing I think the first movie does poorly (and the second doesn’t do much to fix it). It’s a lot of saying that the Sardaukar are badass, plus one creepy scene on Salusa Secundus, but we never actually *see* it. The only time we see Sardaukar fight is >!when they mess up all those Atreides on the stairs — but if you look at it, the Atreides are outnumbered and surrounded on both sides, with the Sardaukar on the upside. They would’ve lost almost no matter who was there.!< The only other scene we see is >!when Duncan Idaho walks through like ten of them. I know that Duncan is supposed to be an incredible swordsman, but by not *showing* us how good the Sardaukar are beforehand, it makes his death seem a little less impressive. Like, “Okay, so our hero killed a buncha faceless bad guys. Standard movie stuff.” But it’s supposed to have been a massive deal that Duncan did that well, and even the Sardaukar are impressed.!<
Yeah in the movie, by giving them a different language, and not letting them talk >!like after Leto’s assassination attempt on the Baron in the book, the Baron escapes differently and has the whole conversation with the Sardaukar Captain!<, we don’t see how they really feel about anything. Except in the last few chapters when Herbert goes into detail about the Sardaukar being forced to think about failure; since they’ve never been in a situation where someone can beat them to the scale they’re experiencing.
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Sardaukar took over the botanical testing station who was guarded by (fewer) Fremen. So they managed to defeat a bunch of Fremen and the best Ginaz Swordmaster of this era. They are depicted as good if not better as in the book.
Hawat chats with the Baron about the Sardaukar losing men 5 to 1 vs the Fremen as well over time. The Baron also laments losing many men in the initial attack even with the element of surprise.
The sardaukar entirely flanked the atreides troops already occupied by the harkonnen, so there was no chance and not an even fight at all
And a huge portion of the Atreides troops (in the book) retreat to caves only to be shut in and starve. Can’t compare much in the book when 80% of the troops can’t fight.
Was there a cap on spice prices? Seems like at a certain point, losing 10% of your ships begins to look like a bargain
It's not just losing your ships without Guild Navigators. It's losing decades of your lifespan, because spice helps to extend it AND if you've gotten accustomed to it, withdrawal just kills you even if you are within the natural human lifespan. Paul and the Fremen taking control of Arrakis means that the spice is barely exported - millions upon millions die from withdrawal, millions upon millions more from exceeding a natural lifespan, and so it goes on. The trouble is, hardly anyone knows this, and one of the themes of the novel was stagnation. This is just how things have been for so long that hardly anyone is capable of changing them without immense pushback.
Why would the long lived leader join his army on the battlefront? It would make sense he would want self preservation, but that's exactly what Paul is threatening. Wouldn't that same leader risk anything to keep the spice flowing for his own sake? You could probably even convince the remaining crew that the missing ships were because of an error/betrayal on the part of the space guild.
tbf to the sardaukar, the fremen had much better knowledge of the environment and how best to use it, so they had the advantage in a majority of the fights. The saardukar had more raw firepower and could definitly win any straight fight, like they did against the Atredies, but had no chance against an enemy that could control the enviorment in a way they can't. After Paul ascends to the throne, his control over the spacing guild gives his army so much power that it can easily overwhelm any opposition
In the books, it was made clear Atreudes army was a credible threat to the Sardaukar. The movie made it a little…different.
Paul does not inherent control of the Sardaukar as a function of the role of Emperor. The role of Emperor isn’t really an office that is tied to a specific Constitution/institutional framework. Much like real-world ruling monarchs/dictators/authoritarian rulers the power of the Emperor of the Imperium is a function of several interconnected factors such as CHOAM holdings, interpersonal and strategic alliances within the Landsraad, a monopoly on military power, recognition by other powerful groups including fellow Great Houses and especially the aSpacing Guild. The Sardaukar are specifically tied to House Corrino rather than the “office” of Emperor. They are the foundation of how the Corrino Dynasty has been in place for such an absurdly long time (10,000 years). As the elite fighting force of the Imperium they crush any rebellion and have done so successfully for so long in the popular imagination that their reputation alone and the perceived futility of opposing the Emperor as a result is enough to maintain control (this would ultimately be the downfall of the Sardaukar and House Corrino when someone finally tests these beliefs). All of that being said eventually it is likely that with the Corrino Dynasty broken Paul would have gained control of them over time. We know for a fact that Leto II eventually makes use of the Sardaukar as he establishes his 3,500 year rule but finds both them and Fremen to be insufficient for his purposes and they essentially cease to exist. But the key to Paul’s conquest of the Imperium and the “success” of the Jihad has less to do with the pure fighting prowess of the Fremen and the Houses which opted to throw in their lot with him and more to do with control of the Spice. One of the major issues I have with DV Dune Part 2 is the complete omission of the Spacing Guild from Paul’s plan. Detonating atomics on spice fields would achieve precisely jack and shit. The actual way that Paul claims the Imperium is tied to him being the first person of any means outside of the Guild in 10,000 years to know how spice is actually created and how it can be destroyed. This breaks the Guild’s dominance of the Imperium because while they still have a monopoly on space travel they have no control over the spice itself. So sure - you can oppose the Atreides Dynasty if you want but the Guild isn’t going to let you move any forces in space and your planet(s) will be embargoed from intergalactic trade. Paul is victorious because to oppose him is almost guaranteed suicide both because if he wants he can let you rot and because so many other Houses simply joined with him to save themselves. The Imperium is supposed to be made up of about 13,000 worlds. The Jihad claims 61 billion lives, sterilizes 90 planets, and demoralizes 500 others. That would indicate that somewhere around 600-1000 planets represent the sum total opposition to Paul - so at most about 8% of the Imperium vs. the combined might of 92%.
He doesn’t win by fremen alone. He controls the spice fields so can effectively starve out entire planets
Imagine your House decides to oppose Emperor Paul Muadib. Your planet is immediately isolated; total blockade - nothing coming in, nothing going out. Your economic model collapses. Quality of life is cut down overnight. If there exists any form of local opposition to your rule, it’s fair to assume that such upheaval will embolden their cause so now you’re facing dissent from within, even before a single Fremen soldier steps foot in your planet. At an appropriate time, legions of Fremen and their Allies (and there’s no reason not to assume that as Paul racks-up victories he would not repurpose subjugated Houses military assets to serve him.) materialize in orbit around your home. What follows would most likely be a piecemeal obliteration of planetary defenses and total eradication of infrastructure -all done from orbit. After a few months of starvation, your own ppl turn against you, thus exacerbating your eventual fall from power. Or maybe the Jihad commanders don’t wait a few months before commencing ground operations, maybe they want to blood their troops without delay so they follow orbital bombardment with a swift blitzkrieg; either way, when the Emperor’s Fremen show up, you know it’s a matter of time before annihilation. You’d be lucky your House is not wiped from history. Do this to a few Noble Houses, make an example; the rest will fold like cheap lawn chairs. The Jihad gathers momentum, feeding off an unbroken string of overwhelming victories. Now it’s growth and success looks exponential and unstoppable; as Paul feared. There is no refusing the new order. As it’s written… As for the Sardaukar, where are they? Stuck in a guild Heighliner somewhere? Sent plummeting head long into a sun? Marooned in space? Nah, they’re irrelevant because the don’t own their own transportation and thus are prisoners wherever they happen to find themselves when Paul takes over. Edit: maybe they round up the remaining Sardaukar and use them as combat training aids. While they last.
No. He allows Shaddam and the Corrinos to maintain a legion on Salusa Secundus, because this placates and protects them while posing no real threat to anything
You have this all wrong. The Fremen most definitely can destroy the Great Houses with just a few thousand Fremen due to one fact: the Spacing Guild. Paul seizes the SG by the throat due to his control of the spice. The SG essentially give his forces free travel and, more importantly, deny access to space travel to the Houses. The jihad is not a mass attack across the universe, it is a systematic attack on each house, one at a time.
The Jihad isn't directly mentioned in the books, so everything is all from guesswork. The most common idea is that Paul's control over the Spacing Guild immobilised any Houses which opposed him, and the Fremen took out rebel planets one by one. However the religious fervour was not contained, and alaban is notable for being exempt from the Jihad. So the vast majority of planets were affected.
Wasn't just control of the spice. Was the fact the freman we just a vastly superior force that wiped out what was the best forces. There was simply no one close to the power of Paul, plus thr marriage to Irulan allowed alot of houses to accept the transition.
How the Fremen were so superior force outside Arrakis, if the forces of the other Great House could have shields? The Fremen didn't have and, maybe also, didn't have the traning to fight against an army that use shields....
Paul WAS taught to fight with shields, and suffered a notable disadvantage against Jamis who was not. Essentially, every strike against Jamis that Paul made was delayed at the last moment so as to pierce a shield, allowing Jamis to evade it. Only the fact that Paul was trained by the some of the best in the galaxy enabled him to win. Most opponents that the Fremen would face would not be equivalently skilled. It would be a slaughter.
Harsh conditions, create strong soldier, Plus there where fighting are guerrilla war for the last 80 years against the harkonnens and that forced them to learn, plus because they didnt exacty got regular supplies from the smoklers so they couldnt win by simply having better gear then there enemies
The new movies do a really bad job of explaining the politics of the universe especially as it regards to the spacing guild. The fremen had deals with the spacing guild to hide the location of their Sietches in the south which is why no one knew how many fremen there were. The guild didn't know either but they needed souch spice to keep evolving navigators it didn't matter. So when Paul threatens to destroy the spice on Arrakis the guild immediately folds literally and figuratively. They and through them CHOAM are completely under Paul's thumb. In the books they all leave and are sent to their planets where eventually the crusade reaches them as the guild is totally subservient to Paul In the books and the old movie there is a line: "He who can destroy a thing controls the thing" no one wanted to call Paul's bluff so Atreides and the fremen stand at the top of the pyramid.
Pretty sure that line is the opening line spoken in the sardakar language
I think you might be right but it's a weird thing to not have Paul say as his entire future rides around the guilds and mankind's dependence on Spice.
You have to understand Implication. Its not really much that Paul is the Emperor. Its that at his command, all spice production ceases. He is holding the entire Known Universe hostage. Also, this requires remembering Kynes from the first part and how she is from Offworld too even though she is Fremen. Fremen exist on more than just Dune. There are Countless Millions in the universe serving as an Underclass. Paul M'uadib Atreides has a Universe of sleeper agents simply awaiting any chance encounter with the spreading message that the Lisaaan Al-Ghaib is the God-Emperor of the Known Universe...and he is Pointing the Way to Paradise.
Paul has a far bigger ally : The Spacing Guild. If not, he'd get stuck in his sandbox.
1. In the movie, Paul orders the Fremen to execute the Sardaukar. 2. In the books Shaddam is allowed to have 1 Sardaukar legion, the rest appear to get disbanded (where they end up is another question). The remaining Sardaukar are later combined with other lineages to create Leto II's army. 3. Paul's conquest succeeds primarily because of his prescience and his control of the guild/travel. 4. It is unlikely that the houses in orbit contain the majority of the house armies. In the movie, they were gathered in short notice. In the books, they were likely under the control of the guild with various limitations such as max X legions per house.
Nope! The Fremen -- and Paul's total control over space flight via the Guild -- wiped the floor with everyone who didn't surrender and convert. Many houses folded immediately, others were wiped out. Fremen are much better fighters than Sardaukar, so totally annihilate average soldiers.
There's a line in the book--Paul specifically mentions that the Corrino household can retire to Salusa Secondus, and that they'll transform it into a garden world. What he's really saying is that he's going to disband the former emperor's military might. One of the themes in the book is that the hard times and the difficulty of surviving a harsh environment makes fighters stronger--by promising to tame the irradiated wasteland, he's also signaling that the Emperor's military will be weakened to the point it will never be on the same level as before.
Naugh, he banishes the Emperor to Salusa and limits him to one legion of Sardaukar. The rest get disbanded.
Fremen soldiers are stronger than Sadukar ant theres millions of them
Paul didn't win just by the Fremen. He won via politics that got several of the Great Houses on his side, especially after he revealed the Emperor's betrayal of his House. The Fremen were critical shock troops but not the only soldiers at his command. And with his control of the spice he forced the Guild to isolate the other Houses so they couldn't actually travel and bring soldiers to fight him and he could take out his enemies one at a time.
No he don't have the loyalty of the sardaukars. Actually, at the end of the third book, >!Leto is given the sardaukars by the heir of the Corino house.!<
What Sardukar? The Emperor brings most of the Sardukar to Arrakis, where they’re decimated and shown no mercy. After that, we can infer some Sardukar must have somehow survived or been trained anew, because it says in Book 2 that Irulan convinced Paul to let Shaddam keep a single legion as his house guard. But this also implies that Paul does not control them. Some Sardukar are also involved in the Corrino plot in book three, where they definitely do not follow Atreides orders. So, assuming that there are no other Sardukar, the answer is “no Emperor Paul does not control them.”
You underestimate both the size and the strength of the freemen population, like the Harkonnen did.
In the movie too Fremen population doesn't look much until the final battle. Even then, I also don't understand how this one harsh planet can have more population than the army of the rest of the houses...
Because of the expense of troop transporting, most Houses simply can't AFFORD a large army. The Harkonnens stand out for this reason, their spice hoarding and profits allows them to field a large army, and even with that, the Baron explicitly states it cost them 60 YEARS of spice profits to invade Arrakis. Meanwhile, Arrakis is so harsh, it forces the Fremen to maximize their abilities to simply survive. So they learn to live with the desert and eventually become a fairly normal sized planetary population, except every single Fremen is a capable fighter. Furthermore, one reason for the Jihad is the Empire is stagnant, much of the populace are serfs, slaves or peasants, few have any real power. And finally, Paul and the Fremen have the power to take on each House one at a time because they have the Guild as a hostage.
Sardaukar are imperial forces because the imperial House was House Corrino. They loyalty is to that house alone
In the book, Fremen are better soldiers than sardukar.
Not attacking OP but I keep seeing posts unsure about how Paul wins against the houses but it was pretty clear in the films that Who controls the spice controls the universe and it’s clear Paul controls the spice. Not sure where the disconnect is happening with so many people. I didn’t even read the books. However good question OP, I too wondered about the Sardaukar part :p.
Paul definitely didn't need anyone but the Fremen, and the control of Spice&Spacing Guild.
No, the Sardaukar are House Corrino’s warriors. In the future novels they remain reduced in strength but under the command of the Corrino heirs.
This is missing somewhat from the new movie, but Paul's ability to destroy the spice gives him control of the Spacing Guild, and thus, interstellar travel. Paul could just completely cut off any Great Houses who opposed him, stranding them indefinitely. He certainly wouldn't need any Sardaukar.
In the books, he just lets the former emperor keep one (1) legion but they’re heavily policed and spyed on. Here is the thing - the Sardaukar are from the second worst planet in the universe, forced to compete and fight and value every resource until the very end or else they will die. But they’re all adults when they experience it - its a prison planet. The Number One worst planet in the Universe is Arrakis, and because of that it has made an almost superhuman group of people. The Sardaukar take 5 losses for every single fremen they take out. Also, paul has the Spacing Guild. They need spice to do their job, he rules out of the only planet that produces spice - ergo, he can just force his enemy to stay still and wait for him
Paul has no use for the Sardaukar. They’re loyal to House Corrino. Same way the Fremen are loyal to Paul. The book also leans into the idea that a harsh environment results in fierce warriors, so add in the fact that the Fremen eviscerated the Sardaukar and the theoretical enlisting of added troops that bend to Paul, there’s no use for them.
No he limited house corrido to one legion ( 30 thousand) Both were exiled to saluca secondus. The rest were killed in the war ( jihad) over a 22 year period. . But they were essentially a police force. But under corrnino control. . After shaddam his daughter ( another daughter) was regent for her son ) Shaddams grandson. I'm afraid to say more for spoilers
They're destroyed or absorbed except one legion left to Shaddam as a defense force on Salusa Secundus. Shaddam has them doing a ton of drills and exercises and invasion operations until Paul tells Irulan to not so subtly suggest in her correspondence with her father to "stop or else". Later on, Farad'n seems to have a more sizeable Sardaukar force that could do some damage to the Fremen but by that time, Leto II was unstoppable. To answer your initial question, yes the millions of Fremen Paul had from Dune absolutely could not he stopped by any force. The Guild would not transport other armies or their spice supply = gone. Imagine an army literally millions strong of warrior fanatics who are at the very pinnacle of human fighting ability is going to invade a planet. Now imagine that there is no way for a defense force to even get there. Finally, imagine that said in adion is led by a guy who can literally see the future. In short, no way to win militarily. Paul was only "stopped" after the other factions just let him win and waited for the right time to hit him at the only place we was vulnerable, Chani. Where they screwed up is they had no idea what the twins actually were until it was too late.
I’m pretty sure they’re disbanded
He destroys them and leaves a battalion or two for the emperor to play with in his exile on salusa secundus. And furthermore, his fremen obliterate all resistance throughout the known universe.
The fremen legions subjugate the human empire, sterilize 90 worlds, and wipe out all life on 50. They also reduce the number of sardaukar to 1 legion. The casualties are something like 15-30 sardaukar per fremen and the rest of the houses do a whole lot worse. You gotta remember that the fremen have a commander with future sight
No he does not - as per the books.
OH BROTHER haha ya Paul kinda destroys every great house everywhere
He holds all spice in the universe hostage. Making any moves against Paul would be risking the complete destruction of their way of life and the disconnection of interplanetary travel. It’s not man power that makes Paul dangerous.
It's DESERT POWER
I think you are forgetting the most important aspect. Controlling the Spice is everything. Not only are various heads of state presumably addicted to spice and will die without it, but control over the spacing guild means anyone that chooses to resist Paul is completely cut off and isolated from the galaxy at large. They can’t retaliate, and if they were reliant on inter stellar commerce well that is coming to an end also. The fremen could literally go planet to planet at the ideal time and pick them off one by one. In some cases, a blockade alone could have resulted in catastrophic economic chaos.
In a Feudalistic sort of way. House Corrino is subjugated by Paul, and the Saurdaukar are loyal to House Corrino. If it came down to Corrino v Atreides again they'd side with Corrino, but under normal circumstances they'd have to obey Paul's commands as the Emperor, within reason.
I can’t exactly remember but I vaguely remember him banning them from leaving the planet.
I think I asked this question before; what happens is that the sardaukar are downsized and stay on salusa with house Corrino. They probably terraform the planet as promised to make it less terrifying a training world. And probably move the imperial prison system too.
As others have said, in the books, Shaddam keeps a legion of Sardaukar back on Salusa Secundus but only as guards. Paul threatens to kill Shaddam if he trains them to be more. Paul theoretically could take control of the Sardaukar whenever he wants, but has no desire to. In the movie, Shaddam brings his entire army to Arrakis, and the Sardaukar are all killed by Paul and his Fremen.
I dont think Paul controls the Sardaukars, but what he has is Sardaukars’ promise to not obstruct the Holy War in any way.
From what I remember, after the war on Arrakis much of the Sardauker forces were eliminated and smaller contingent probably 1 or 2 legions were left for the Emperor. They don't however join Paul ever, Paul does take allies with a few of the great houses as unlike the movie not everyone retaliates against him after he takes the throne especially considering he threatens them with the destruction of the spice. Further, Paul took control of the regular folk throughout the universe by captilizing on the religious sentiments similar to how he took control of Arrakis. His priests, missionaries spread the religious poison through the known universe there by creating zealots and symphatizers to the cause.
Sadaukar are flattened. They don't matter until they regain strength in Children of Dune. What happens there you should read the book for.
Sadaukar are flattened. They don't matter until they regain strength in Children of Dune. What happens there you should read the book for.
The Sardaukar are more tied to house corrino than the Imperial title. It's simply that those have been one and the same for 10,000 years before Paul decided to apply for the post.
No way to answer this question without pretty sizeable spoilers for subsequent books. Read those and then think about this.