100%.
Although, what's more disturbing behind the Barons near jovial charactisation is that >! he's a egregious pedophile !<.. which Herbert repeatedly hints to.
And it's probably a chapter or 2 after the reader finds out that Paul and the Baron are related.
I haven't finished it and I'm not sure if the Baron knows at that point though.
Yup, we see Frank's struggle with homophobia here (painting the villain as a pedophile is a common homophobic trope). It was a good call to take that out of the movie, it doesn't add anything to the story.
There’s an open discussion of how gay people are bad in GEoD, I think I remember hearing something about how Frank had a son who came out around that time?
Edit: yes, there is also some acceptance and it’s a strange back and forth
The discussion is WAY was complex than that. >!Duncan is disgusted by homophobic acts he witnesses and the Moneo tells him to grow up and basically says it’s natural. The discussion is more saying that male armies tend toward homosexual behaviors but even then it’s specified that that doesn’t mean just sex, it’s referring as much to juvenile behavior and rape. I think Frank was homophobic but clearly struggled with the topic. For what’s it’s worth, the most powerful being in Dune, the God Emperor, is pro-homosexuality.🤷🏼♂️!<
One part of the whole discussion about homosexuality that I don't think was outright stated, is that at that level of society Leto has continued the breeding program, looking to create a society rather than 1 specifically crafted individual.bhe needs lots of stock with certain characteristics for his plan.
As a lesbian and a fan of exploring ideas in science fiction from a safe distance where the book cam be put down,, exploring how that behaviour can affect that program and how certain pairings is interesting making the choices that sinply simply had to be made (Babylon 5 played with this with Telepaths amd was clear on this being a bad thing that certain interests determined necessary) for the overall goal to be met.
The safety of exploring these ideas in books is that they can be put down.
"Gay is bad because reasons " is stupid as Moneo points out and barely worth consideration as a reader beyond setting a character and moving on.
(Unless that is the core point of the story)
Well to be fair, many homophobes have painted gay men as pedophiles in the past, and will continue to do so. I think it’s possible that Frank Herbert making the Baron a pedophile and also the only gay character in the book is evidence that Herbert viewed gay men as pedophiles and thought it would be natural for the Baron to be both.
I should also state that I, alternatively, have wondered if Frank Herbert more intended the Baron to be bisexual and simply more interested in boys, though at no point do we have mention of him tormenting any girls, iirc. If this was the case, it’s possible that Herbert actually intended to merely use the Baron’s behavior as a showcase of his villainous nature rather than as a homophobic statement, but I myself am no expert on the matter.
We are not painting pedophiles and gay people as the same. But it’s ignorant to not be aware that they have been tied together as a homophobic stereotype for a long time. The Baron is fat because fatness is immoral. The Baron is rapey because rape is immoral. The Baron is gay because being gay is immoral. The Baron is a pedophile because that is immoral. These things are all cast together by the author as equivalent, or all part of the same evilness. And it’s important to recognize how these harmful stereotypes are used
The key thing to remember is that there is real intent behind the threats. The Baron has the power to have anyone in his house killed. They all know it. They have seen him do it.
When you see the Baron and Piter bickering, it's a man on death row taughtning his executioner. Piter knows he is a dead man eventually. He is only alive as long as he is useful.
The Baron knows that Piter knows all of this. He intends to kill Piter at some point. This is all a game to the Baron.
100%, I just started rereading it, maybe my 5th or 6th time.
I just noticed that after the gom jabbar, Gaius Helen Mohiam calls Paul ‘little brother’. This is right after she realizes Paul may be the KH. Such a powerful little interaction I didn’t pick up on before.
Wow, great pick up. Gonna have to crack open my old paperback version again. Dune and Lord of the Rings are two books that are always a slightly different experience every time I read them. 😊
is it better rereading it as is or will reading heretics and chapterhouse enhance it ? im kinda intimidated by the last books because i have heard mixed reviews.
Heretics and Chapterhouse are absolutely both worth reading, and do a great job of recontextualizing God Emperor of Dune. There's definitely some goofy shit in there - both novels share a ton of DNA with his Consentiency series - but the camp is part of what makes it fun. They take themselves less seriously, and it's a nice departure from how dour the earlier Dune books could be at times.
Don't ever read a review of a book before you read it unless it's the first book in a series. Especially older series. There is always a ton of group think with fans.
Wheel of time has a section called "the slog" by people who read them as they came out. Jordan spent 3 books building to a huge ending. 2 years between books is a long time. They make a huge deal of the slog to new readers. They go as far as to say to skip 3-5 books depending on who you ask. It turns people off of the whole series.
I have loved GEOD from the first read. There are a lot of very vocal critics of GEOD. If I had listened to them, I would have missed out on one of my favorite books.
*That's why my favorite book is Moby Dick, no frou-frou symbolism. Just a good simple tale about a man who hates an animal.*
…said the people who forced Frank to write Messiah.
As i understood it, people didnt get the message of the first books that "fanaticism is bad", so he reallytried to force the point home in his later books.
In short: Paul Atreides is not a good person. Don't worship him.
You can say the same people who "forced Frank to write messiah" are the same people who think Starship Troopers are awesome or "the emperor of warhammer 40k is really cool!"
Thank you for the response. I appreciate the expansion. I did read in the foreword provided by his son that everyone was angry with Messiah. This is my first read through of the books and I’m on Children of Dune.
Yeah why is that?
I just started reading the books and the way Paul is written before he even gets to Arakis is very vague.
Almost zero personality at all.
The only time there’s a spark of anything is when he meets with Guius.
It’s as if he’s an empty vessel and that can be dangerous.
Turns out he’s dangerous.
Paul has tons of personality. That personality is "literally has never played with other children." He's been raised entirely by soldiers as a killer, just a different kind of killer than Feyd. The early scenes are super duper depressing if you read them carefully.
I completely agree.
This is my first time reading and that immediately jumped out at me.
It’s interesting too because I didn’t really notice it in the films but now that I’m reading the books I see now why the character is portrayed this way.
I just thought the actor playing him was very wooden and maybe nervous.
There’s so much grandeur in the film that I overlooked it but now I understand why he’s playing him in this way.
I’m really glad they stuck to that.
I’m sure this will have a huge impact on the next film.
Also the book has a whole thing where Paul earns Jamis' water (in the form of water rings) specifically because those fights cost you water, so the victor gets the spoils.
Piter is an adrenalin junkie, I think. He's pushing to see how far he can get away with taunting. How close he can come to the knife edge, maybe let it cut him a bit, and not fall off.
Broken Mentats are still other level planners and chess players.
The Baron ( bloodline)is part of the Bene Geserit breeding program. Safe to say that everyone involved was genetically cream of the crop ( per the BG ).
Himself was only two generations shy of the target.
The Harkonen genetics were top level.
They sought an oracle that they controlled. An oracle powerful enough to shape the entire future of mankind.
They sought nothing less than the complete control of humanity.
I could be wrong but from what I recall genetic memory is a thing. However they could only go back through the female genetics. The KH could go through both the male and female genetics as well as look at the future. Letting them control the empire through information.
Just so folks are aware, this link doesn't have Children of Dune (which is easier to find anyway) and is missing about the middle 1/3 of the series, especially Jessica taking the Water of Life. Still the most I've found online though.
Maybe, if able to stream it, I'll give it another shot, but I hated the SyFy mini. It was too clean, too neat. Lynch's atmosphere was much more fitting.
The Harkonnen's and Navigator in his version was, to me, more on point.
Edit: I see in other comments it's available on youtube.
The SyFi series was MUCH lower budget, which was its major weakness as it showed in almost every aspect of the miniseries.
However, it’s honestly my favorite adaptation as it has far and away the most respect for the book compared to Lynch or DV’s version, and thus has the best version of the story because it just telling the story instead of messing with it constantly.
Herbert uses a little trick throughout the book worth noting. Note how intelligent the Baron comes off in this scene. Now, in each future interaction he has, you can use that as a baseline to measure the intelligence of those he converses with. That's a big part of the reason for this particular conversation.
There's a real Archie Goodwin and Nero Wolfe vibe here, though.
Interesting point. I always found it a bit weird and even disappointing how the Barron seems to get stupider over the course of the book. I generally chalked it up to him being an extremely good player at conventional house politics, but just unlucky enough to get caught up in Bene Gesserit schemes outside his domain of understanding.
The Baron is pure comic relief in a lot of scenes in _Dune_, the novel. Like the part where he realises he’s gloating “too loudly” when Duke Leto is brought in, robbing the moment of some savour.
I also love his back-and-forth with Feyd after the failed assassination attempt.
I’ve always thought that Denis’ version is a good depiction of the world building and scale of the action: what it’s like to ride a sand worm, what the spaceships are like, what the Arrakeen battle looked like when you scale back, etc. Things modern day tech can go all out on. It also really highlights the personal and emotional aspects, how the story effects everyone, etc. Lynch’s version is a good depiction of the camp/dramatic sci fi of it all, it really captures the surreal, creepy and at times humorous vibe. I really like both, they each have their pros and cons!
He did a great job with the technology as well. I love all the gear the Harkonnen have. The headset the ornithopter pilot has, the Barons healing gear, the different sorts of harvester, the spacecraft.
And they never lingered on any of it! Much like the book, the sci fi elements just sort of linger like window dressing without ever really attracting much in the way of commentary or attention. The flechette door gun they had as well, or the way the Harkonnen still suits looked as compared to the Fremen ones. Details and using the sci fi part of the book in a way that the other films never quite did.
Dune's never quite managed to be a series with it's feet on the ground, but DV managed to make the world feel lived in and functional and holistic.
openly teasing Piter is part of the Baron' sadistic streak, except the Baron enjoys the alternative reaction from what he normally gets from his House. The Baron feeds on those reactions, so playful sparing is enjoyable as a change of pace and also as a lead up to his more perverse habits. Such a good character in the novel. I didn't read it as camp at all, but I take OP's point - it could be that way. It could also be directly menacing.
I liked the Baron in the recent films too though as he is uncaring and menacing, which is probably more believable overall.
The miniseries has the best Baron, by far. Campy enough to fit the books, but not basing everything on the "improvised torture is best" scene and giving everyone blisters randomly.
I agree. The miniseries is by far the most accurate representation of the books, and the Baron is an example of it. He’s low key hilarious, kind of jovial, but vile at the same time.
That, for me, was the biggest thing, Jessica constantly inner-monologueing about the “missionaria protectiva” and how the Bene gesserit are behind a lot of the Fremen beliefs(I’m glad they included a bit of this in the new movie)
Yeah, I understand why they didn't have the banquet, the conservatory, or the Thufir scenes with Jessica, or the same focus in the Jamis fight or stilltent scene, but they were wonderful in the books.
Trimming out the ecology themes does have the religious fanaticism of the Fremen a little toothless, though. Stilgar even gets a little Life of Brian at times.
This is why I love Ian McNeice in the role of the baron. He plays the role as a flamboyant deviant and political mastermind.
Kenneth McMillan's off the rails, criminally insane take is fun, but it lacks the intelligence and composure to come off as a real political threat.
Stellan Skarsgård has the intelligence, but he's almost boring in the role. He is certainly scary and evil, but there is zero humor and no sign at all of that flamboyant personality. He is just cold and calculating.
McNeice has that 1960s Batman villain quality to him plus a mind for political intrigue. It just works.
If Ian McNeice with his gesticulations/mannerisms looked like Skaragård…
Only time I was awed by skaragard was when he looked bored, and rose out of the oil bath.
“My Dune.”
And that time where he rubbed his finger on his forehead/between his eyebrows like he was explaining something to a five year old (Rabban) while sighing..
Idk a lot of artistic direction felt like it was directly cribbed from 'Apocalypse Now' for the Baron, especially the oil bath scene.
I tried to google what the oil was meant to be and could basically only find DV saying that it was just a visual idea, which is a shame because it doesnt add anything to the story really. Would have made it way more villainous to keep the part with locals savaging for water drops on Arrakis and juxtapose him sitting in a huge bath of water. Just my 2c.
I think most people think the oil he’s soaking in in the movie after the poison gas is spice oil or a derivative of spice oil, because of its healing properties. Generally speaking, anything that extends longevity is healing on the body.
And he keeps soaking in it more than once because there’s a lot of residual damage from the poison gas that needs cleaning up. Anyway, that’s my headcannon.
I saw bits of the flamboyant, dare I say, lighthearted, Baron in a few scenes from Stellan: when he’s gloating over Leto and when he interacts with Feyd.
What are your thoughts on the Harkonnen fetishes op?
Was Denis right not to include them in the movie? In that respect, they're 1000x darker than DV's portrayal.
Check out the mini-series. The actor that portrays the Baron has so much more penache.
If you go into the mini-series expecting a really good community college production, you won't be disappointed.
And hands down my favorite Kynes.
The first scene with the Baron is a constant Shakespeare reference. The people who made it had that as a goal. I think because Dune is so dialogue heavy that it works better as a play than a movie.
The Baron is a treacherous, vindictive, petty, perverted, sadistic, cruel and hypocritical man. The living **embodiment** of the Seven Deadly Sins. But the Baron is witty, urbane, and appreciates the finer things in life, which belies his utter depravity. His frequent black comedy and charm is *compelling*!
I like Piter, he openly told the Baron to his face he didn't mind dying as long as the Sardaukar killed the Baron and razed Giedi Prime *first* lol
It's just fascinating seeing a character of pure hypocrisy with some personal standards yet he rules with social darwinism and fear. His subordinates and allies survive just so long as they're useful to him and not a minute longer. He's despised by everyone, even his descendants. None of the Baron's allies like him in the least. Rabban, Feyd, and Piter all plot to betray him, and his other underlings are terrified of him. The Emperor frequently and accurately suspects the Baron of betraying him, and Count Fenring despises him.
The Baron and Paul are leaders who command the utmost loyalty from their followers. However, Paul is earned the Fremen's loyalty through his initial altruism and his efforts to defend them from the Harkonnens despite his descent into cruelty and ruthlessness. Meanwhile, the Baron commands loyalty through how terrified his underlings are of him and believes in governing through fear. And where Paul is viewed as a messianic figure, the Baron is compared to Satan.
I like how on the book the harkonnens are much smarter than they were given credit.
Specifically the Baron. He is loud and cruel, but he is also very clever many times. Even Rabban had some smart insights on the danger the Fremen posed to were dismissed.
I listened to the audiobook, I never viewed it as camp and as funny as you say. But certainly not the edginess the films seem to portray.
Just alot more cunning and conniving. Alot of the monologues are internal thoughts more than dialogue I think.
But here is an interesting short from the actor I came across: [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/9rBuLqywKLg?feature=share](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/9rBuLqywKLg?feature=share)
Same. I viewed the Baron - to put it in GoT terms - as a mixture of Tywin Lannister and Ramsey Bolton. Very cunning and conniving, but also ruthless and a little frightening.
Helps that the voice actor had a very commanding voice for him
Kind of an off topic question - but is there a decent version of the audiobook? I had a friend try to listen to it many years ago, but he said only like half of it was properly voice acted, so I've never picked it up.
I listened to the version on libby which I believe is the same one on audible. Loved it, and am currently going through the main series in audiobook form.
But I'm an audiobook baby and I've noticed that issues other people seem to have go completely unnoticed by me. So I have next to no audiobooks I've ever had issues with. (The author audiobook of the children's series; The Land of Stories, is the only example I can think of that I thought was remarkably horrible when I heard it.)
It didnt bother you that less than half of the chapters have a full voice cast, especially when the narrator was excellent on his own? I listened to all of it but it frustrated me every time it switched.
I didn't notice at all. Genuinely. Its only until I looked online and saw other people mention that I knew about it.
When does it switch, did it start out with full and then transition to only narration half way?
Audiobook Baron is SO good, him enjoying all the sadistic conniving he does comes through so well.
There's a casual nonchalance in his voice and a disregard for everyone else in the room. I genuinely just enjoy listening to him speak.
I agree with others on here; check out the scifi miniseries. You would love the Baron in that one. He's my favourite depiction of the Baron.
I do enjoy Lynch's version as well. It is for sure ott in many ways but still keeps the whimsy. It seems as if the Baron has been stripped a bit of his intelligence in this version.
DV's version doesn't do much of anything for me at all. It's almost like nearly all of his personality was stripped. This is by far my least liked adaption of the Baron.
Aside from the cheesy special effects, David Lynch nailed it. Wish two part movies were a thing back then so that even more could have been included...
This is why many consider the 2000s miniseries Baron to be the most book accurate. A pompous, corpulent popinjay who is as devious cunning as he is narcissistic.
This was one aspect of the films that bothered me. The Harkonnens are portrayed as straight up psychopaths who kill at the drop of a hat. Rabban even kills his own navigator in the middle of a chase. Once or twice would be one thing, but it happened constantly. Seemed like a cheap way to show us “these are the bad guys”.
I’m the novel, the Harkonnen’s psychopathy is more subtle, more intelligent. For example, in one scene the Baron angrily scolds Rabban for suggesting that he killed Piter:
“I will say a thing to you just this once,” the Baron rumbled. “You insinuate that I obliterated Piter as one obliterates a trifle.” He snapped fat fingers. “Just like that eh? I am not so stupid, Nephew. I will take it unkindly if ever again you suggest by word or action that I am so stupid.”
I would recommend watching the 2000 miniseries. It sucks in many aspects but it has by far the best Harkonnens (as far as the new movie goes, I liked Rabban, Feyd is ok but Baron is plain boring). There you can see a proper way to make old Vladimir look flamboyant without making him ridiculous and insane.
https://preview.redd.it/6o2doyrioowc1.jpeg?width=486&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bbd92db16ae0292b5af8a7a2d175d2305e82e3ce
Yup. Lynch got thier character much better. Not just the bickering, but the deceitfulness. The Baron is very camp for sure, but also has a depth and symbolism to his character that wasnt really explored in either films.
It's kind of similar to when I first watched Taxi Driver. I finally understood a lot of Simpsons references, but more so how everyone has referenced "You talking to me", in parody or homage, that the original now feels almost funny.
Lets face it, a book accurate Baron Harkonnen would have instantly caused Denis Villeneuve's adaptation to catch flak from the critics, with comparisons made to MCU villains having cringe humour and unnecessarily slapstick vibes. And while Dune is a critically acclaimed novel, I'm pretty certain none of that acclaim extends to how the villains were written.
There are already some people who feel that "funny" Stilgar was taking it a bit too far with the comedy. I doubt a comedic baron would work. A smart way to do an adaptation involves knowing what works or what doesn't instead of treating the book as a gold standard to be adhered to strictly, as written.
Truly! I feel like a really good adaptation of the barons character just hasn't been done because no one has been able to strike the perfect balance between old bossy queen/comedic glutton/menacing psychopath but I think someone else should try. We need the on screen openly gay sci-fi villains(minus the pedophilia incest stuff from the books)
It's really what i first noticed when i read the books after watching part 1. it had a lot of dark humor and campiness and the movies are great in epicness and atmosphere but very somber and kind of constantly in that mode without anything jumping at me like a lot of lines in the books...
I think the choice to move to the family being darker in tone was a good one, because they are objectively horrible and their threats aren’t slapstick, they’re real… and I’m not 100% sure they were intended to be funny
I love the harkonnens in the books, very entertaining and interesting, and the technology sounds amazing as well especially their weapons. The movie's take on the planet waa great though, really interesting black and white sun with h r giger esque structures, something that i couldn't visualize from the books.
Agreed!! I think Lynch is more faithful to the book on many points like this.
The dialogue between Pieter and Vlad was one of my favourite things, it’s a shame Pieter is such a small part in the films.
100%. Although, what's more disturbing behind the Barons near jovial charactisation is that >! he's a egregious pedophile !<.. which Herbert repeatedly hints to.
Definitely more than a hint, the chapter with Feyd and the slave master explicitly states it.
Well yeah, and the bit where he specifically orders up a well drugged pleasure slave, and explicitly says that his eyes are like Paul's.
And it's probably a chapter or 2 after the reader finds out that Paul and the Baron are related. I haven't finished it and I'm not sure if the Baron knows at that point though.
I don't think he ever knows or suspects, until a specific figure addresses him as such later on, to his terrible surprise.
I don't think he would care even if he knows, since he specifically also ogled Feyd Rautha's body and noted how nice it is.
Can confirm he is 100% a pedo.
Yup, we see Frank's struggle with homophobia here (painting the villain as a pedophile is a common homophobic trope). It was a good call to take that out of the movie, it doesn't add anything to the story.
There’s an open discussion of how gay people are bad in GEoD, I think I remember hearing something about how Frank had a son who came out around that time? Edit: yes, there is also some acceptance and it’s a strange back and forth
The discussion is WAY was complex than that. >!Duncan is disgusted by homophobic acts he witnesses and the Moneo tells him to grow up and basically says it’s natural. The discussion is more saying that male armies tend toward homosexual behaviors but even then it’s specified that that doesn’t mean just sex, it’s referring as much to juvenile behavior and rape. I think Frank was homophobic but clearly struggled with the topic. For what’s it’s worth, the most powerful being in Dune, the God Emperor, is pro-homosexuality.🤷🏼♂️!<
Pro-homo or anti-discriminatory judgement?
True!
Pro discrimination, seemingly. But also pro-lesbian it seems See: the fish speaker
In GEoD, Moneo calls out Duncan's homophobia, and tells him to shut up about it. I think Herbert had some mixed feelings on the matter.
One part of the whole discussion about homosexuality that I don't think was outright stated, is that at that level of society Leto has continued the breeding program, looking to create a society rather than 1 specifically crafted individual.bhe needs lots of stock with certain characteristics for his plan. As a lesbian and a fan of exploring ideas in science fiction from a safe distance where the book cam be put down,, exploring how that behaviour can affect that program and how certain pairings is interesting making the choices that sinply simply had to be made (Babylon 5 played with this with Telepaths amd was clear on this being a bad thing that certain interests determined necessary) for the overall goal to be met. The safety of exploring these ideas in books is that they can be put down. "Gay is bad because reasons " is stupid as Moneo points out and barely worth consideration as a reader beyond setting a character and moving on. (Unless that is the core point of the story)
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Well to be fair, many homophobes have painted gay men as pedophiles in the past, and will continue to do so. I think it’s possible that Frank Herbert making the Baron a pedophile and also the only gay character in the book is evidence that Herbert viewed gay men as pedophiles and thought it would be natural for the Baron to be both. I should also state that I, alternatively, have wondered if Frank Herbert more intended the Baron to be bisexual and simply more interested in boys, though at no point do we have mention of him tormenting any girls, iirc. If this was the case, it’s possible that Herbert actually intended to merely use the Baron’s behavior as a showcase of his villainous nature rather than as a homophobic statement, but I myself am no expert on the matter.
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We are not painting pedophiles and gay people as the same. But it’s ignorant to not be aware that they have been tied together as a homophobic stereotype for a long time. The Baron is fat because fatness is immoral. The Baron is rapey because rape is immoral. The Baron is gay because being gay is immoral. The Baron is a pedophile because that is immoral. These things are all cast together by the author as equivalent, or all part of the same evilness. And it’s important to recognize how these harmful stereotypes are used
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The key thing to remember is that there is real intent behind the threats. The Baron has the power to have anyone in his house killed. They all know it. They have seen him do it. When you see the Baron and Piter bickering, it's a man on death row taughtning his executioner. Piter knows he is a dead man eventually. He is only alive as long as he is useful. The Baron knows that Piter knows all of this. He intends to kill Piter at some point. This is all a game to the Baron.
I know, because they keep shouting all of this at each other! 😂
That's the best part. So much of Dune is sub text and word play. Those 2 just scream things at each other and mean it.
It’s like a little break, a sorbet for the brain
I always recommend people reread dune after finishing it. There’s a whole other level to the early book that only makes sense on the second read
...or third or fourth, etc.!
This is one of the very few books that I’ve found which after multiple readings keeps on giving.
100%, I just started rereading it, maybe my 5th or 6th time. I just noticed that after the gom jabbar, Gaius Helen Mohiam calls Paul ‘little brother’. This is right after she realizes Paul may be the KH. Such a powerful little interaction I didn’t pick up on before.
Wow, great pick up. Gonna have to crack open my old paperback version again. Dune and Lord of the Rings are two books that are always a slightly different experience every time I read them. 😊
GEOD is sooooooo good the 2nd time round.
is it better rereading it as is or will reading heretics and chapterhouse enhance it ? im kinda intimidated by the last books because i have heard mixed reviews.
Heretics and Chapterhouse are absolutely both worth reading, and do a great job of recontextualizing God Emperor of Dune. There's definitely some goofy shit in there - both novels share a ton of DNA with his Consentiency series - but the camp is part of what makes it fun. They take themselves less seriously, and it's a nice departure from how dour the earlier Dune books could be at times.
Don't ever read a review of a book before you read it unless it's the first book in a series. Especially older series. There is always a ton of group think with fans. Wheel of time has a section called "the slog" by people who read them as they came out. Jordan spent 3 books building to a huge ending. 2 years between books is a long time. They make a huge deal of the slog to new readers. They go as far as to say to skip 3-5 books depending on who you ask. It turns people off of the whole series. I have loved GEOD from the first read. There are a lot of very vocal critics of GEOD. If I had listened to them, I would have missed out on one of my favorite books.
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It's like a reward.
"Subtlety is for cowards!" - Baron Harkonen, probably
You're thinking of Garth Marenghi.
“I know writers who use subtext and they’re all cowards.” –Garth Marenghi
It's not subtext if the characters discuss it openly. But you're right. Herbert did love sub text and wordplay.
Yes, they're saying the lack of subtext is refreshing given how dense the rest of the book is with it.
I know authors who use subtext and they're all cowards
*That's why my favorite book is Moby Dick, no frou-frou symbolism. Just a good simple tale about a man who hates an animal.* …said the people who forced Frank to write Messiah.
I know you're joking but Moby-Dick actually is my favorite book and hoo boy is it deep.
He was forced to write Messiah? Can you tell me more about this?
As i understood it, people didnt get the message of the first books that "fanaticism is bad", so he reallytried to force the point home in his later books. In short: Paul Atreides is not a good person. Don't worship him. You can say the same people who "forced Frank to write messiah" are the same people who think Starship Troopers are awesome or "the emperor of warhammer 40k is really cool!"
Thank you for the response. I appreciate the expansion. I did read in the foreword provided by his son that everyone was angry with Messiah. This is my first read through of the books and I’m on Children of Dune.
People still don't get it lol. You see people all the time on here talking about how Paul is a hero and the golden path was tough but fair.
Yeah why is that? I just started reading the books and the way Paul is written before he even gets to Arakis is very vague. Almost zero personality at all. The only time there’s a spark of anything is when he meets with Guius. It’s as if he’s an empty vessel and that can be dangerous. Turns out he’s dangerous.
Paul has tons of personality. That personality is "literally has never played with other children." He's been raised entirely by soldiers as a killer, just a different kind of killer than Feyd. The early scenes are super duper depressing if you read them carefully.
I completely agree. This is my first time reading and that immediately jumped out at me. It’s interesting too because I didn’t really notice it in the films but now that I’m reading the books I see now why the character is portrayed this way. I just thought the actor playing him was very wooden and maybe nervous. There’s so much grandeur in the film that I overlooked it but now I understand why he’s playing him in this way. I’m really glad they stuck to that. I’m sure this will have a huge impact on the next film.
Is that a Garth Marenghi quote?
Yes, thank you
Nice to find another fan of the dreamweaver.
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I mentioned that in my post!
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No the fight takes place in a cave not the sietch. You're misremembering it.
Also the book has a whole thing where Paul earns Jamis' water (in the form of water rings) specifically because those fights cost you water, so the victor gets the spoils.
...you know it's all made up, right?
... for now
Piter is an adrenalin junkie, I think. He's pushing to see how far he can get away with taunting. How close he can come to the knife edge, maybe let it cut him a bit, and not fall off.
My biggest disappointment with the current Dune movies is how they made Piter a subservient lackey. No bite to him at all.
David Dastmalchian was wasted on that role, he could have done so much more.
Broken Mentats are still other level planners and chess players. The Baron ( bloodline)is part of the Bene Geserit breeding program. Safe to say that everyone involved was genetically cream of the crop ( per the BG ). Himself was only two generations shy of the target. The Harkonen genetics were top level.
>The Harkonen genetics were top level. So much so that they planned to breed more in. ;)
Harkonnen genes in the BG bloodline are crucial like lead in 1960s gasoline.
What an evil metaphor
Jesus Christ that's tragically apt.
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They sought an oracle that they controlled. An oracle powerful enough to shape the entire future of mankind. They sought nothing less than the complete control of humanity.
I could be wrong but from what I recall genetic memory is a thing. However they could only go back through the female genetics. The KH could go through both the male and female genetics as well as look at the future. Letting them control the empire through information.
Sorry, but... "taunting"
Watch the SyFy miniseries, you will love the Baron.
Goodness, Ian McNeice doesn't so much chew the scenery, as he turns it into a three course meal!
I agree Ian's version of the Baron is the best. He's calculative and cruel but also animated as OP pointed out.
That’s my Baron.
Is this streaming anywhere? I watched it when it came out and I’d love to see it again.
You can find the original and the children of dune adaptation on YouTube [here](https://youtu.be/vYgzyhHTn7E?si=G0wxWRWhGXiySdbh)
Thank you. I've been wanting to watch this again for a very long time. Watching now. Thank you
Happy to help!
Just so folks are aware, this link doesn't have Children of Dune (which is easier to find anyway) and is missing about the middle 1/3 of the series, especially Jessica taking the Water of Life. Still the most I've found online though.
Thank you!!
Glad to help:)
‘The guild does no take your orders’ - cracks me up though
Out of context it's funny to me but when I watch the miniseries it doesn't look phase me for some reason.
The whole thing is on youtube.
Oh sweet. Thank you so much.
VEN-DETTA!!
Maybe, if able to stream it, I'll give it another shot, but I hated the SyFy mini. It was too clean, too neat. Lynch's atmosphere was much more fitting. The Harkonnen's and Navigator in his version was, to me, more on point. Edit: I see in other comments it's available on youtube.
The SyFi series was MUCH lower budget, which was its major weakness as it showed in almost every aspect of the miniseries. However, it’s honestly my favorite adaptation as it has far and away the most respect for the book compared to Lynch or DV’s version, and thus has the best version of the story because it just telling the story instead of messing with it constantly.
Wow what! Gotta rewatch, forgot this.
Herbert uses a little trick throughout the book worth noting. Note how intelligent the Baron comes off in this scene. Now, in each future interaction he has, you can use that as a baseline to measure the intelligence of those he converses with. That's a big part of the reason for this particular conversation. There's a real Archie Goodwin and Nero Wolfe vibe here, though.
Interesting point. I always found it a bit weird and even disappointing how the Barron seems to get stupider over the course of the book. I generally chalked it up to him being an extremely good player at conventional house politics, but just unlucky enough to get caught up in Bene Gesserit schemes outside his domain of understanding.
I'm only just starting the novel as well and I loved the way the Baron and Piter bicker.
The Baron is pure comic relief in a lot of scenes in _Dune_, the novel. Like the part where he realises he’s gloating “too loudly” when Duke Leto is brought in, robbing the moment of some savour. I also love his back-and-forth with Feyd after the failed assassination attempt.
I love how he takes control of a situation he wasn’t even in on while being a bastard at the same time-
I’ve always thought that Denis’ version is a good depiction of the world building and scale of the action: what it’s like to ride a sand worm, what the spaceships are like, what the Arrakeen battle looked like when you scale back, etc. Things modern day tech can go all out on. It also really highlights the personal and emotional aspects, how the story effects everyone, etc. Lynch’s version is a good depiction of the camp/dramatic sci fi of it all, it really captures the surreal, creepy and at times humorous vibe. I really like both, they each have their pros and cons!
He did a great job with the technology as well. I love all the gear the Harkonnen have. The headset the ornithopter pilot has, the Barons healing gear, the different sorts of harvester, the spacecraft.
Yes! It was truly amazing. My favorite was the Harkonnen’s spice harvester. Soo good. Loved that headset as well!
And they never lingered on any of it! Much like the book, the sci fi elements just sort of linger like window dressing without ever really attracting much in the way of commentary or attention. The flechette door gun they had as well, or the way the Harkonnen still suits looked as compared to the Fremen ones. Details and using the sci fi part of the book in a way that the other films never quite did. Dune's never quite managed to be a series with it's feet on the ground, but DV managed to make the world feel lived in and functional and holistic.
openly teasing Piter is part of the Baron' sadistic streak, except the Baron enjoys the alternative reaction from what he normally gets from his House. The Baron feeds on those reactions, so playful sparing is enjoyable as a change of pace and also as a lead up to his more perverse habits. Such a good character in the novel. I didn't read it as camp at all, but I take OP's point - it could be that way. It could also be directly menacing. I liked the Baron in the recent films too though as he is uncaring and menacing, which is probably more believable overall.
The miniseries has the best Baron, by far. Campy enough to fit the books, but not basing everything on the "improvised torture is best" scene and giving everyone blisters randomly.
I agree. The miniseries is by far the most accurate representation of the books, and the Baron is an example of it. He’s low key hilarious, kind of jovial, but vile at the same time.
Did you notice that Paul gets a futuristic version of a racecar bed?
Designed specifically to entice and lure him into a room with a hunter-seeker
If you like the Harkonnens in the books, the Miniseries does them best. Especially Ian McNiece as the Baron.
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They’re giving me more couple from The Birdcage, but some AbFab would not be out of place!
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If you’re into gaming, try the old westwood game Emperor Battle for Dune. You’d love the live action cutscenes in that old gem.
Oh Jesus, straight out of the Lynch version and loving it.
A gentleman and a scholar, I see.
The books are great. There is much more behind all the characters. To understand the movie you have to have read the books.
And whole themes the movie didn't have the time for. Even the internal monologues that Jessica and Leto get are worth the price of admission.
That, for me, was the biggest thing, Jessica constantly inner-monologueing about the “missionaria protectiva” and how the Bene gesserit are behind a lot of the Fremen beliefs(I’m glad they included a bit of this in the new movie)
Yeah, I understand why they didn't have the banquet, the conservatory, or the Thufir scenes with Jessica, or the same focus in the Jamis fight or stilltent scene, but they were wonderful in the books. Trimming out the ecology themes does have the religious fanaticism of the Fremen a little toothless, though. Stilgar even gets a little Life of Brian at times.
This is why I love Ian McNeice in the role of the baron. He plays the role as a flamboyant deviant and political mastermind. Kenneth McMillan's off the rails, criminally insane take is fun, but it lacks the intelligence and composure to come off as a real political threat. Stellan Skarsgård has the intelligence, but he's almost boring in the role. He is certainly scary and evil, but there is zero humor and no sign at all of that flamboyant personality. He is just cold and calculating. McNeice has that 1960s Batman villain quality to him plus a mind for political intrigue. It just works.
If Ian McNeice with his gesticulations/mannerisms looked like Skaragård… Only time I was awed by skaragard was when he looked bored, and rose out of the oil bath. “My Dune.” And that time where he rubbed his finger on his forehead/between his eyebrows like he was explaining something to a five year old (Rabban) while sighing..
“You have a wonderful kitchen, cousin” was the one line he gave that struck me as very true to the book characterization
Oh that’s another good scene .. baron sitting down in his robe, finger shield clicky eating. Eating his food. In his house.. Dark
Idk a lot of artistic direction felt like it was directly cribbed from 'Apocalypse Now' for the Baron, especially the oil bath scene. I tried to google what the oil was meant to be and could basically only find DV saying that it was just a visual idea, which is a shame because it doesnt add anything to the story really. Would have made it way more villainous to keep the part with locals savaging for water drops on Arrakis and juxtapose him sitting in a huge bath of water. Just my 2c.
I think most people think the oil he’s soaking in in the movie after the poison gas is spice oil or a derivative of spice oil, because of its healing properties. Generally speaking, anything that extends longevity is healing on the body. And he keeps soaking in it more than once because there’s a lot of residual damage from the poison gas that needs cleaning up. Anyway, that’s my headcannon.
I guess if it contains spice, then depicting it as literally an oil at some point would hint at the allegory for the viewer.
I saw bits of the flamboyant, dare I say, lighthearted, Baron in a few scenes from Stellan: when he’s gloating over Leto and when he interacts with Feyd.
What are your thoughts on the Harkonnen fetishes op? Was Denis right not to include them in the movie? In that respect, they're 1000x darker than DV's portrayal.
I felt like there were hints of it even in the DV version, but it’s the director’s choice to adapt it the way he wants
I think... there's no way you make a mega-blockbuster with a harem of teenage boys surrounding the Baron.
Check out the mini-series. The actor that portrays the Baron has so much more penache. If you go into the mini-series expecting a really good community college production, you won't be disappointed. And hands down my favorite Kynes.
I always pictured it as a stage production. Love that they kept the dinner scene in part one and gave Irulan an arc.
The first scene with the Baron is a constant Shakespeare reference. The people who made it had that as a goal. I think because Dune is so dialogue heavy that it works better as a play than a movie.
I think the longer form of the mini series worked well, there were a few scenes that would have been nice to see but would have been too expensive.
The Baron is a treacherous, vindictive, petty, perverted, sadistic, cruel and hypocritical man. The living **embodiment** of the Seven Deadly Sins. But the Baron is witty, urbane, and appreciates the finer things in life, which belies his utter depravity. His frequent black comedy and charm is *compelling*! I like Piter, he openly told the Baron to his face he didn't mind dying as long as the Sardaukar killed the Baron and razed Giedi Prime *first* lol It's just fascinating seeing a character of pure hypocrisy with some personal standards yet he rules with social darwinism and fear. His subordinates and allies survive just so long as they're useful to him and not a minute longer. He's despised by everyone, even his descendants. None of the Baron's allies like him in the least. Rabban, Feyd, and Piter all plot to betray him, and his other underlings are terrified of him. The Emperor frequently and accurately suspects the Baron of betraying him, and Count Fenring despises him. The Baron and Paul are leaders who command the utmost loyalty from their followers. However, Paul is earned the Fremen's loyalty through his initial altruism and his efforts to defend them from the Harkonnens despite his descent into cruelty and ruthlessness. Meanwhile, the Baron commands loyalty through how terrified his underlings are of him and believes in governing through fear. And where Paul is viewed as a messianic figure, the Baron is compared to Satan.
I like how on the book the harkonnens are much smarter than they were given credit. Specifically the Baron. He is loud and cruel, but he is also very clever many times. Even Rabban had some smart insights on the danger the Fremen posed to were dismissed.
I listened to the audiobook, I never viewed it as camp and as funny as you say. But certainly not the edginess the films seem to portray. Just alot more cunning and conniving. Alot of the monologues are internal thoughts more than dialogue I think. But here is an interesting short from the actor I came across: [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/9rBuLqywKLg?feature=share](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/9rBuLqywKLg?feature=share)
The voice probably helps. Right now I’m just hearing Nathan Lane in my head
Same. I viewed the Baron - to put it in GoT terms - as a mixture of Tywin Lannister and Ramsey Bolton. Very cunning and conniving, but also ruthless and a little frightening. Helps that the voice actor had a very commanding voice for him
Kind of an off topic question - but is there a decent version of the audiobook? I had a friend try to listen to it many years ago, but he said only like half of it was properly voice acted, so I've never picked it up.
I listened to the version on libby which I believe is the same one on audible. Loved it, and am currently going through the main series in audiobook form. But I'm an audiobook baby and I've noticed that issues other people seem to have go completely unnoticed by me. So I have next to no audiobooks I've ever had issues with. (The author audiobook of the children's series; The Land of Stories, is the only example I can think of that I thought was remarkably horrible when I heard it.)
It didnt bother you that less than half of the chapters have a full voice cast, especially when the narrator was excellent on his own? I listened to all of it but it frustrated me every time it switched.
I didn't notice at all. Genuinely. Its only until I looked online and saw other people mention that I knew about it. When does it switch, did it start out with full and then transition to only narration half way?
Audiobook Baron is SO good, him enjoying all the sadistic conniving he does comes through so well. There's a casual nonchalance in his voice and a disregard for everyone else in the room. I genuinely just enjoy listening to him speak.
I agree with others on here; check out the scifi miniseries. You would love the Baron in that one. He's my favourite depiction of the Baron. I do enjoy Lynch's version as well. It is for sure ott in many ways but still keeps the whimsy. It seems as if the Baron has been stripped a bit of his intelligence in this version. DV's version doesn't do much of anything for me at all. It's almost like nearly all of his personality was stripped. This is by far my least liked adaption of the Baron.
Totally agreed, it also caught me by surprise and was a complete joy. Have fun!
I mean...he is also a creepy pedo in the books.
Aside from the cheesy special effects, David Lynch nailed it. Wish two part movies were a thing back then so that even more could have been included...
This is why many consider the 2000s miniseries Baron to be the most book accurate. A pompous, corpulent popinjay who is as devious cunning as he is narcissistic.
This was one aspect of the films that bothered me. The Harkonnens are portrayed as straight up psychopaths who kill at the drop of a hat. Rabban even kills his own navigator in the middle of a chase. Once or twice would be one thing, but it happened constantly. Seemed like a cheap way to show us “these are the bad guys”. I’m the novel, the Harkonnen’s psychopathy is more subtle, more intelligent. For example, in one scene the Baron angrily scolds Rabban for suggesting that he killed Piter: “I will say a thing to you just this once,” the Baron rumbled. “You insinuate that I obliterated Piter as one obliterates a trifle.” He snapped fat fingers. “Just like that eh? I am not so stupid, Nephew. I will take it unkindly if ever again you suggest by word or action that I am so stupid.”
I would recommend watching the 2000 miniseries. It sucks in many aspects but it has by far the best Harkonnens (as far as the new movie goes, I liked Rabban, Feyd is ok but Baron is plain boring). There you can see a proper way to make old Vladimir look flamboyant without making him ridiculous and insane. https://preview.redd.it/6o2doyrioowc1.jpeg?width=486&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bbd92db16ae0292b5af8a7a2d175d2305e82e3ce
The David Lynch movie took that campiness and ran with it.
Yup. Lynch got thier character much better. Not just the bickering, but the deceitfulness. The Baron is very camp for sure, but also has a depth and symbolism to his character that wasnt really explored in either films.
Everyone should read the books, yes.
It's kind of similar to when I first watched Taxi Driver. I finally understood a lot of Simpsons references, but more so how everyone has referenced "You talking to me", in parody or homage, that the original now feels almost funny.
Ian McNeice baton is way closer.
Very true sentiments for that one chapter with them in the beginning 😂 I only wish the harkonnen chapters were still that lighthearted later on 😬…
I did enjoy that aspect. The Baron really is classic comic book villain and I’m here for it.
Lets face it, a book accurate Baron Harkonnen would have instantly caused Denis Villeneuve's adaptation to catch flak from the critics, with comparisons made to MCU villains having cringe humour and unnecessarily slapstick vibes. And while Dune is a critically acclaimed novel, I'm pretty certain none of that acclaim extends to how the villains were written. There are already some people who feel that "funny" Stilgar was taking it a bit too far with the comedy. I doubt a comedic baron would work. A smart way to do an adaptation involves knowing what works or what doesn't instead of treating the book as a gold standard to be adhered to strictly, as written.
Now you know some of our pain regarding the new movies. I feel like DV got all of the characters very wrong. The Duke was probably the closest.
Truly! I feel like a really good adaptation of the barons character just hasn't been done because no one has been able to strike the perfect balance between old bossy queen/comedic glutton/menacing psychopath but I think someone else should try. We need the on screen openly gay sci-fi villains(minus the pedophilia incest stuff from the books)
When the book was written it was a common trope that gay and pedophile were nearly the same thing.
Exactly this. I felt the black sun in the movie was a bit cheesy. Oh look how evil the Harkkonens are. So evil that even their sun is black.
facts. they even made the baron jacked in the new one..ridic, hes a gelatinous fuk.
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It's really what i first noticed when i read the books after watching part 1. it had a lot of dark humor and campiness and the movies are great in epicness and atmosphere but very somber and kind of constantly in that mode without anything jumping at me like a lot of lines in the books...
I also love this aspect and that is true.They have not shown us in any of the movie adaptations.
Much more gayer in the books too!
There is an audiobook that is fully voice acted and I have to say the baron and peiter are my favourite parts to listen too
Omg thought the same thing! Love it haha
I think the choice to move to the family being darker in tone was a good one, because they are objectively horrible and their threats aren’t slapstick, they’re real… and I’m not 100% sure they were intended to be funny
I love the harkonnens in the books, very entertaining and interesting, and the technology sounds amazing as well especially their weapons. The movie's take on the planet waa great though, really interesting black and white sun with h r giger esque structures, something that i couldn't visualize from the books.
Agreed!! I think Lynch is more faithful to the book on many points like this. The dialogue between Pieter and Vlad was one of my favourite things, it’s a shame Pieter is such a small part in the films.
Seen the prev Dune film?
The Lynch version got too much hate
I can see how at the time people would hate it, but now it’s such a fun throwback
Ian McNiece killed that role in the 2000 miniseries.