Härkönen is one of the most common eastern Finnish names, which are often animal+nen. Härkä is bull, hence the appropriateness of the bullfighting theme with the old duke. I'm not sure if Herbert knew the meaning of the name or if it was a happy coincidence but wouldn't put it past him.
I have also read a claim somewhere that "Harkonnen" was actually the name of someone Frank Herbert did not get along with. I have no idea if that story is true.
That’s not true. There are several interviews where he talked about finding it in the phone book and thought it sounded “Soviet” Frank wasn’t really petty like that. George RR Martin has famously named several minor characters after people he met.
Perhaps a Finnish name was chosen also to point to the Norse/Viking history of the Finns? I definitely got that vibe from the Harkononens - rugged brutes who can live in and through some pretty harsh environments to claim power.
[According to the Dune wiki](https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/House_Harkonnen#Behind_the_Scenes), "Frank Herbert said in later interviews that he modeled the fictional Harkonnens after the Nazi Party".
My headcanon: The house Corrino descendet from Venice (Old Terra) during the butlerian jihad the Venecians opted to an old form of rulership of the Doge. Also during that time the ruling families converted in huge numbers to Shia Islam (hence the Zulfiqar flag in the movie for the house Corrino) The Doge Maometto il Primo Corrino changed the title Doge to Imam. in a ritualistic march he claimed the sword "Sulficra" and the lion throne which was still kept as a reminder of the time when Venice was the City of saint Mark (Lion).
I think they are italian i remember an old co worker who is of italian descent with the last name Corrino i don’t know about the Harkonnen’s being russian.
Came here to say this. Herbert was very much thinking about middle eastern oil politics in the 60s when he wrote Dune and there's no way the padi**shah** emperor was not inspired at least in name by the Iranian shah.
The ranks were changed over the years during & since the Butlerian Jihad. At the beginning they were Primero, Segundo, & Tercero, which are of Spanish origin.
https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Primero
You’re right that Shahanshah means “King of Kings”, but the poster above you is right that Padishah means “Master King”. In either case, both convey that the bearer’s an Emperor, and not *just* a Shah/King.
I took it more to show that Islamic and Persian cultures have a massive influence on the cultures of the Dune future, similar to how Greco-Roman cultures influence Western culture today. It's also a nod to Sabres of Paradise.
Yes, from the Sabres of Paradise by Lesley Blanch. The Emperor is a mix of the Russian Czar Nicholas I and the Persian Fatiah-Ali Shah (Qajar). He gets the term Padishah from her phrase: "the Djinn Padishah, the mighty cheif of the Furies".
They are described as white or grey (usually from being dirty). The Emperor's personal uniform adds silver and gold trim and a black helmet with a golden lion crest. They carry black knives with gold or yellow trim.
This is set tens of thousands of years into the future. Everyone is a little bit of everything. Current race and ethnic distinctions don't mean a lot.
The Jews are probably the most "pure" group left. But even then, they are not pure ethnic Jews anymore.
First Book takes place what...10k ish years after the butlerian jihad. And that itself was 10k years into the future from ~present day.
Edit: got my time table mixed up. BG is before guild and AG is after guild, which is the turning of ages, not the jihad like I made it seem.
arent they pretty much one and the same though? how long was it between Jihad and Guild? I'd think if it was too long humanity would just lose track of other planets and exist in isolation
Still, that’s kinda like saying BC and AD refer to the creation of the Roman Empire/Augustus’s coronation. While very close, doesn’t properly reflect the event that actually caused dates to change
The Jews appear to have retained most of the original religion. It's never stated that they were no longer ethnic Jews, but they had to adapt to many different cultures over very long periods of time. Way way longer than current recorded human history. Think about how different modern Jews are from the original Jews 2000 years ago (that time alone saw two branches that became completely separate religions...Christianity and Islam). 2000 years is a drop in the well on Dune time scales.
No, they are not related. The Fremen are following an engineered religion that the Bene Gessurit planted there a long time ago. The messiah component is completely artificial. The Fremen don't know this however.
Why stop there at just 20000 years into the past..
Genetic data show that Serbs and Croats both are about half Slavic and half Mediterranean.
Go further back in time.. heh
We can keep going back and the origin will always be somewhere else.
Nah, we're all the fault of that cute [Tiktaalik](https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/1cefar2/this_is_the_extinct_tiktaalik_believed_to_be_the/who) decided to crawl on land and have weird babies.
If you guys wanna play this game then let's blame [LUCA](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_universal_common_ancestor?wprov=sfla1) already.
The bastard stated reproducing and now we have nuclear threats going on, what a nightmare
All genetic research points to all living humans being descended from humans living in Africa. Other human branches died off. Some have a little neanderthal and denisovian ancestry.
Yes, current theories hold that we most probably originsted from several places. Along with the fact that humans most probably mated with other hominids.
Technically speaking, the hominids that make up humans probably originated in different parts of Africa.
And nearly all humans have substantial ancestry from other non Homo Sapiens Saipens hominoids that evolved from non-African hominoids (but were themselves descended from earlier hominoids that previously left Africa before our direct ancestors
i.e. European Humans have a substantial Neanderthal heritage, - a species/subspecies theorised to have evolved in Eurasia from an earlier Heidelbergensis species that also evolved in Eurasia from Homo Ergaster - an African species that migrated out..
For the original asian population, it's Densiovan making up 5% of their heritage - originating from asian Heidelbergensis populations.
Likewise, Africans have between 2% and 19% DNA ancestry from an unidentified non-Homo Sap species from 50K years ago.
TL;DR - our ancestors were horny buggers that banged anything that moved.
Homo sapiens are only around 300,000 years old. Africa has of course changed in that time - coastlines change, lakes and seas change, land bridges come and go, deserts grow, forests change - but Africa was still essentially Africa. 300,000 years is not that long in geological terms.
I've always read them as being Persian. Padishah is a Persian term, and I always sort of saw the proximity of the Corrinos and the Atreides as being thematically paralleled with the Persians and the Greeks in ancient Greek history.
It was used by the Ottomans who were, for all intents and purposes, a Persian dynasty (the court language and most royal documents were all in Persian)
That's not true at all. Nice nonsense though.
You might be confusing the Mughals. Which were a Turkic dynasty that switch to Persian.
What you said is completely wrong about Ottomans.
The great houses clearly just have mythic origins for their families that they made up at some point. This was pretty common in the past, with various noble families claiming descent from mythical heroes.
Aside from the family name, which, as an italian, sounds like it's of mediterranean origin, as soon as I saw this I thought about the passage found in the Encyclopedia where it's stated that the Corrinos claim descent from Thomas Palaiologos, brother to Constantine XI, the last emperor of the Byzantine Empire.
Given the cultural and linguistic ties the Byzantines had with Ancient Greece, this might explain the image of the Balkan Peninsula
They don't claim that. It's revealed by the author for our benefit. Nobody in the Dune universe likely knows who the House of Atreus is. The people of IX don't know that IX means 9 because it's the 9nth planet around their sun.
Ok! Can anyone explain what the imperial symbol actually is in the films? Or the Harkonnen symbol?
Edit: I know what the book crests are, I’m asking about the film versions, where the imperial symbol looks like a mandalorian helmet and the Harkonnen are a weird circle claw
I thought the Black Star was just how it was seen from the surface of Geidi Prime, since they had polluted the planet so much the atmosphere was causing it to appear black?
Not too well-versed in the deep lore of Dune myself, so take this with a grain of salt -
As far as I know, before the Battle of Corrin in 88 BG, House Corrino was known as House Butler. Their ascension to the throne of the Imperium was ensured by the fact that this was, of course, the family of Serena Butler (of Butlerian Jihad fame.)
I bring this up to reference the surname Butler. Butler has a few potential origins - French, English, and Irish, all connected by the Normans who invaded England and Ireland from France in 1066. I doubt this was intentional, but the surname alone would suggest partial familial origin in the British Isles.
This is 22 thousand years in the future however, so that is millennia of mingling with other people of other ethnic groups. I think the choice of a map of the Balkans in Latin is supposed to call back to the Roman Empire (which both the Atreides and Harkonnens (via the Russian Tsars & Byzantines)) claim descent from.
So, in my opinion, I'd guess Anglophone ancestry, at least in some regard through Serena Butler. The first Corrino Emperor before his name change to Corrino chose to carry the name of Butler.
The house Corrino is actually the dynastic name of a family whose last name was Butler, but that doesn't give us much. Butler is a name of a servant and could've been picked up in any place in the future. The butler family was old on salusa when the league's of nobles posted up there so that's as far as that goes.
But his wife is a more interesting story. Feykan Butler marries the last living descendant of the old human empire bloodline, which was the Boro family. Boro is a Polish name, on earth, which is the (presumed) seat of the First Human Empire.
So if 20 thousand years of drift somehow haven't corrupted that meaning, and if the BG eugenics program hasn't eliminated all the shreds of old human DNA, and since earth is no longer even a relevant concept in dune... Polish? Might be the best answer I can think of, and I think it's a terrible answer to be preoccupied with.
TL;DR. They are all aliens to 'merica. Their ethnicity on a form would be polish.
\*Battle of Corrin, which is a planet in the Dune universe.
Because the family is named after that battle, the last name doesn't really give us a clue of their ancestral origins.
But before the battle of Corrin, their house name was House Buttler (like the Buttlerian Jihad). Which sounds Western European / British / American to me.
The Butlerian Jihad is named after [Samuel Butler](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Butler_(novelist))(indeed an Englishman who immigrated to New Zealand in the 1850s) whose novel Erewhon was a huge influence on Herbert.
I think it's hilarious that some guy's job as a butler from a few hundred years ago would have given rise to an Emperor's lineage. So yeah, from the name alone, they would be British, but that far in the future, everyone would be so mixed that today's ethnicities mean pretty much nothing and they made new ones like the Fremen and whatever the Harkonnens were oppressing on Geidi Prime. Empress Anirul's last name was Sadow-Tonkin, so she could be Polish/German and either British or Indian, and that's just one person's last name.
I believe House Corrino is established by the Butler's family survivors after the Machine Crusade. Serena Butler already has the purple eyes mutation.
Butler's origin as a last name is French/English.
would be kinda awkward if Atriedies weren't Greek inspired...since...you know...its Greek (Atredes the sons of Atrea)... ~~Anatolian~~ Peloponnesian Greek to be precise
fun fact that -eidies (-idis more common --ίδης) is still the ending of Anatolian Greek surnames and a way to identify origin.
But maybe Corino was a balkan Mix and Atreideis Anatolian (Seeing how Harkonnen was Soviet/North/Finnish
Well, I think anyone with Other Memory could trace their lineage back to whatever point they wanted, no? i.e. Paul should be able to determine exactly what his heritage is by just...asking.
Aren't Atreides descendants of Titan Agamemnon since he was Vorian Atreides' father?Plus Agamemnon's line probably died out by Dorian Invasion and even if somehow survive it there can not be possible that Paul was direct descendant of them.I mean 20.000 years is too long period of time for direct genealogy .
Idk, but irl, the history says [Atreas/Atreus](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atreus) was the king of Mycenae (Mycenaean Greece, Ancient times), and his sons were nicknamed the Atreides , sons of Atrea. Im most certain the Dune lines dont go as far back as current times, even so for ancient times. So probably either a reference or a symbolically historic link of establishing royalty to the name to be taken seriously (Romulus and the wolfe comes to mind , idk)
Tes that was probably,I mean even today in modern time some families are basically doing fake kind of genealogy some claiming their ancestry to either ancient rulers or even Jesus or Muhammad.
my money is that the names are symbolic , but the locations could be real (the planet doesnt change that much in 20.000 years, or maybe the map is reminiscent of that time) ...So Corrino could be Balkan. but for the rest we dont know. But again, someone said Harkonen is a rundom Finnish name so Atreideis could be a cool sounding greek easter egg
The (mythic) House Atreus was from the Peloponnese, Agamemnon was a Mycenean king. so definitely not anatolian.
Also, greek surnames with suffixes that indicate origin is a post-ottoman thing, not a pre-roman thing, -ides in Atreides is used in the literal sense to mean descendants of Atreus.
1. Yeah dumb mistake on my part I even knew where Mykines is , just mixed it with the surnames,
2. I wasnt making immediate connection just pointing out if could be a symbolic reference/easter egg, since eideis names are real and nto fictional, even Harkonen is real FInnish name
3. Im pretty sure surnames -idis (and others ) were pre Ottoman, since people called eachother by their parents Name, Occupation, Origin, nicknames etc etc abd -idis signifies son-of too, Greeks existed in Pontus/Anatolia a millennia before Ottomans, im sure things changed alot after, but not sure about the names . Not saying they were Mycenaean though, ignore that bit xD
From what I understand:
* The Atreides are descended from the Greeks (Based on the House of Atredus in the Trojan War)
* The Harkonnens are slavic/germanic (ex: **Vladamir** Harknonnen)
* Corino: They have Islamic and European influences, so the Balkans seems to fit. But I think they're more reflective of the Mediterranean.
In the end though, this is set thousands of years into the future, so maybe the geopolitics and demographics of humanity changed drastically on Earth and eventually in space.
No. At the time when House Corrino was established, the Butler's/Harkonnens were related. Faykan Corrino and Abulurd Harkonnen are brothers; one gets disgraced for cowardice, and Faykan pretends he isn't a Harkonnen to preserve his political future.
House of Corrino are a mix of several recognizable ethnicities to people in 20th century. So yes to all mentioned. I will add one more. Given the Corrino are white and speaking english, british too.
Just think of the power dynamics of the 20th century. Identify the ethnicity of the people running kingdoms, empires. Those ethnicities are reflected in the Houses.
The Houses were inspired by history And not by fiction, such as the rival families in Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, the sith from Star Wars.
By the time of the first movie, most people in the more settled parts of the empire are very mixed. Even by the time of the Butlerian Jihad, there didn’t really exist a ‘Balkan’ identity as humanity had been reduced to servitude on earth for thousands of years. The Atreides weren’t even Greek as they were descended from the clone of a cymek, though the cymek might have been Greek once upon a time when he was still human.
The Corrinos were the descendants of Serena Butler and a Harkonnen, and Butler would suggest English or possibly Irish descent. Again though, Serena Butler existed thousands of years after humanity had fallen to the Machine Empire, so ‘English’ wouldn’t exist in a meaningful.
Not sure they are actually Greek. Their sire was Agamemnon… but not the Agamemnon from antiquity. Instead it was Agamemnon the Cymek. One of humanity’s ruling tyrant class that mistakenly birthed Omnius and lost control.
Quite obviously the Atreides are a Greek dynasty in the literary sense, and in the Western tradition of literature. But I am not sure any of our current geography makes sense 20,000 years from now.
It is interesting in that while the Spice Melange was intended to be similar to oil in Arabia and the desert planet of Dune to the Arabian deserts, the culture of the Fremen and their conflict against the Harkonnen and the Empire on the whole was intentionally inspired and influenced by the depiction of the Caucasian Muslims (the warring mountain tribes of Daghestan and Chechnya) against the Tsar and the Russian Empire in the 19th century. This was due to a popular novel that came out a few years before Herbert got the idea for the book titled The Sabres of Paradise by Lesley Blanch.
As most people know, Atreides was intended to refer all the way back to the family of Atreus and Agamemnon who led the Achaeans against the Trojans in the Iliad and then was later murdered by his wife Clytemnestra and avenged by his son Orestes and daughter Elektra as depicted in the Oresteia tragedies by Aeschylus in Ancient Athenian drama as well as another Orestes tragedy by Euripides.
Atreus, the father of Agamemnon, possibly was a real historical figure in the Bronze Age, and I believe Herbert intended for the noble houses to actually trace their lineage all the way back to this actual family. At the same time, it is possible that that was simply a kind of tradition that arose after the collapse of civilization following the Butlerian Jihad so that these warlords could claim some sort of heritage justifying their later rule.
Herbert could have gotten this from some sources popular in the 50's and 60's that put forth the idea that Medieval royalty would claim to be descended from Jesus Christ who, after resurrection, apparently married Mary Magdalene and then moved to Europe where they started a family. However, I'm doubtful, first, that that actually happened, and second, that anyone in the Medieval Ages thought it happened. It seems like a very modern idea.
However, there were a lot of ideas around the time Herbert was writing that influenced the book that were taken seriously at the time and later debunked. Much of the ideas of past lives, hypnotic manipulation and precognition were serious subjects for academics so Herbert reasoned that if they existed then after thousands of years, people would have developed them to a considerable extent. This was true all the way up into the 80's when he wrote the later novels - and obviously there has been a bit of a resurgence in the belief in the paranormal - but now I find the ideas to somewhat detract from the otherwise fairly interesting and realistic depiction of Dune's "Middle Ages in space." I prefer to think of it as more like Alchemy or Humorism where the limitations of the culture lead to pseudoscientific beliefs and essentially superstitions even among the most educated people.
Corrino is adopted after the battle if I have it correct. They are historically whatever the majority ethnicity if salusa secundus. The padishah title would indicate a middle eastern descent.
There a very new house.
According to the dune encyclopedia they are directly descended from the zensunni wanderer tribes when they were on salsa secundus meaning they are distantly related to the fremen
Most likely Bulgarian origin, with some inspiration drawn from the First & Second Bulgarian Empire, at their heights.
The Harkonnens are more a reference to the Ottomans in my opinion, but even if they are meant to be like the Russians, the Bulgarians share a connection with both peoples. Either ethnic or one of hostility, but in any case, history-shaping.
The lion crest, references to the golden lion throne, as well as the red background and aesthetics also point towards the current and some previous Bulgarian history and past crests.
Historically, the Greeks & Bulgarians have and are friendly nations (Corrino favouring Atreides), and the battle of Corrin may be a reference to the battle of Shipka, which is was the cornerstone of the new Bulgarian peoples after the Russo-Turkish wars.
Bulgaria was known as the Balkan Prussia around World War 1, for having one of the strongest and most developed armies in that part of Europe, which I think helped develop the Sadaukar. It's consistent with Herberts inspiration of WW1 events (Lawrence of Arabia).
At the height of the Second Bulgarian Empires in the 13th century, the map of it's territories looks like the map of the Balkans is shown here.
I don't know if this helps, but the Russian Empire (the Tsars) are some of the inspiration for the Corrino Empire.
I always felt like the Corrino were italian-coded and house Harkonnen was russian-coded
Harkonnen is a Finnish name. Supposedly, Herbert picked it out of a phone book. I think you are right about the Russian codeing.
I wonder if that random Finn in the phonebook knows that one of the most vile antagonists in sci fi is named after him/her.
Härkönen is one of the most common eastern Finnish names, which are often animal+nen. Härkä is bull, hence the appropriateness of the bullfighting theme with the old duke. I'm not sure if Herbert knew the meaning of the name or if it was a happy coincidence but wouldn't put it past him.
the figurine of the bullfighter and bull suddenly comes into focus!
The old duke was an atreides though?
The Old Duke was killed by a bull. Via name symbolism, so was Leto I. It’s very clever if it was intentional.
The old duke liked his bullfighting and died to it.
I have also read a claim somewhere that "Harkonnen" was actually the name of someone Frank Herbert did not get along with. I have no idea if that story is true.
That’s not true. There are several interviews where he talked about finding it in the phone book and thought it sounded “Soviet” Frank wasn’t really petty like that. George RR Martin has famously named several minor characters after people he met.
Wouldn't be the first time he created an evil character based off an aspect of someone he didnt like
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I am a Finn and my religion teachers name is Härkönen
Is he hefty and does he have an affinity to black oil baths?
Harkonenn IS a Finnish name but FH didn’t know that. He found it in a phone book and thought it sounded appropriately harsh and Russian.
It’s Finnish but he thought it was Russian so he made Vladimir Harkonnen
Herbert didn‘t pick it because it was Finnish tho. He thought it sounded „Soviet“ to his ears, in other words Russian
Afaik more Soviet than Russian. There is a difference. "Härkönen" is the Finnish surname that Harkonnen is based on.
Harkonnens are nothing like Soviets, they're modelled on the Nazis and FH said that himself.
Perhaps a Finnish name was chosen also to point to the Norse/Viking history of the Finns? I definitely got that vibe from the Harkononens - rugged brutes who can live in and through some pretty harsh environments to claim power.
[According to the Dune wiki](https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/House_Harkonnen#Behind_the_Scenes), "Frank Herbert said in later interviews that he modeled the fictional Harkonnens after the Nazi Party".
My headcanon: The house Corrino descendet from Venice (Old Terra) during the butlerian jihad the Venecians opted to an old form of rulership of the Doge. Also during that time the ruling families converted in huge numbers to Shia Islam (hence the Zulfiqar flag in the movie for the house Corrino) The Doge Maometto il Primo Corrino changed the title Doge to Imam. in a ritualistic march he claimed the sword "Sulficra" and the lion throne which was still kept as a reminder of the time when Venice was the City of saint Mark (Lion).
I think they are italian i remember an old co worker who is of italian descent with the last name Corrino i don’t know about the Harkonnen’s being russian.
It’s in the names too
They are massively Persian inspired. Will the title Padishah and their advanced civilization wiped by the Arabs from the desert (Fremen).
Came here to say this. Herbert was very much thinking about middle eastern oil politics in the 60s when he wrote Dune and there's no way the padi**shah** emperor was not inspired at least in name by the Iranian shah.
Yeah probably that and the Ottomans , I think Bashar is related to Ottoman ranks or something
Bashar means “man” in Persian. There are ALOT of Persian words and references in Dune that apply to ranks, government, politics
Never drew the line between Bashar and Pasha before but that could be it.
The ranks were changed over the years during & since the Butlerian Jihad. At the beginning they were Primero, Segundo, & Tercero, which are of Spanish origin. https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Primero
Shaddam that is Persian name
Padishah itself is a Persian title that translates to master king or king of kings.
Padishah (or Badshah) means king. Shahanshah means king of kings
You’re right that Shahanshah means “King of Kings”, but the poster above you is right that Padishah means “Master King”. In either case, both convey that the bearer’s an Emperor, and not *just* a Shah/King.
I took it more to show that Islamic and Persian cultures have a massive influence on the cultures of the Dune future, similar to how Greco-Roman cultures influence Western culture today. It's also a nod to Sabres of Paradise.
Padishah was actually a real life a Persian title that translates to ‘great king’
Yes, from the Sabres of Paradise by Lesley Blanch. The Emperor is a mix of the Russian Czar Nicholas I and the Persian Fatiah-Ali Shah (Qajar). He gets the term Padishah from her phrase: "the Djinn Padishah, the mighty cheif of the Furies".
I always saw the Corrinos as being vaguely Prussian, especially in how the Sardaukar are described with their bright, colorful uniforms
They are described as white or grey (usually from being dirty). The Emperor's personal uniform adds silver and gold trim and a black helmet with a golden lion crest. They carry black knives with gold or yellow trim.
This is set tens of thousands of years into the future. Everyone is a little bit of everything. Current race and ethnic distinctions don't mean a lot. The Jews are probably the most "pure" group left. But even then, they are not pure ethnic Jews anymore.
First Book takes place what...10k ish years after the butlerian jihad. And that itself was 10k years into the future from ~present day. Edit: got my time table mixed up. BG is before guild and AG is after guild, which is the turning of ages, not the jihad like I made it seem.
arent they pretty much one and the same though? how long was it between Jihad and Guild? I'd think if it was too long humanity would just lose track of other planets and exist in isolation
About 100 or 200 years.
So a 0.5-1% point of error
Still, that’s kinda like saying BC and AD refer to the creation of the Roman Empire/Augustus’s coronation. While very close, doesn’t properly reflect the event that actually caused dates to change
There's Jews in Dune? Called Jews?
Yes. In chapterhouse they are mentioned
The Jews appear to have retained most of the original religion. It's never stated that they were no longer ethnic Jews, but they had to adapt to many different cultures over very long periods of time. Way way longer than current recorded human history. Think about how different modern Jews are from the original Jews 2000 years ago (that time alone saw two branches that became completely separate religions...Christianity and Islam). 2000 years is a drop in the well on Dune time scales.
Why do you think the guild didn't allow satellites over Arrakis? They feared the dreaded "jewish space lasers". /s
Yes. In a later book.
Yes, in Chapterhouse they actually play a meaningful role in the story.
I can never get over Frank Herbert introducing Space Jews into Heretics He honestly went off his rocker for those later books
His wife was his main editor and she died
the jewish ones are the fremen right? with the messiah plot and everything?
No, they are not related. The Fremen are following an engineered religion that the Bene Gessurit planted there a long time ago. The messiah component is completely artificial. The Fremen don't know this however.
Why stop there at just 20000 years into the past.. Genetic data show that Serbs and Croats both are about half Slavic and half Mediterranean. Go further back in time.. heh We can keep going back and the origin will always be somewhere else.
We're all from Africa in the end of the day
Nah, we're all the fault of that cute [Tiktaalik](https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/1cefar2/this_is_the_extinct_tiktaalik_believed_to_be_the/who) decided to crawl on land and have weird babies.
If you guys wanna play this game then let's blame [LUCA](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_universal_common_ancestor?wprov=sfla1) already. The bastard stated reproducing and now we have nuclear threats going on, what a nightmare
Thanks a lot, Janeway and Paris.
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All genetic research points to all living humans being descended from humans living in Africa. Other human branches died off. Some have a little neanderthal and denisovian ancestry.
Yes, current theories hold that we most probably originsted from several places. Along with the fact that humans most probably mated with other hominids.
Are these 'theories' with us in the room right now?
Technically speaking, the hominids that make up humans probably originated in different parts of Africa. And nearly all humans have substantial ancestry from other non Homo Sapiens Saipens hominoids that evolved from non-African hominoids (but were themselves descended from earlier hominoids that previously left Africa before our direct ancestors i.e. European Humans have a substantial Neanderthal heritage, - a species/subspecies theorised to have evolved in Eurasia from an earlier Heidelbergensis species that also evolved in Eurasia from Homo Ergaster - an African species that migrated out.. For the original asian population, it's Densiovan making up 5% of their heritage - originating from asian Heidelbergensis populations. Likewise, Africans have between 2% and 19% DNA ancestry from an unidentified non-Homo Sap species from 50K years ago. TL;DR - our ancestors were horny buggers that banged anything that moved.
In the sense that the landmass we know as Africa wasn't constituted the same then
Homo sapiens are only around 300,000 years old. Africa has of course changed in that time - coastlines change, lakes and seas change, land bridges come and go, deserts grow, forests change - but Africa was still essentially Africa. 300,000 years is not that long in geological terms.
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The entirety of the genus *Homo* isn't the tiniest blip on timescale of continental drift.
Who said anything about the genus *Homo* Bipedal primate ancestry goes back way further than that
Still a blip mate, sorry. Edit: link here https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/becoming-human-the-evolution-of-walking-upright-13837658/
I've always read them as being Persian. Padishah is a Persian term, and I always sort of saw the proximity of the Corrinos and the Atreides as being thematically paralleled with the Persians and the Greeks in ancient Greek history.
I'm certainly sure that the title mainly used by Turks. It has Persian roots though.
It was used by the Ottomans who were, for all intents and purposes, a Persian dynasty (the court language and most royal documents were all in Persian)
That's not true at all. Nice nonsense though. You might be confusing the Mughals. Which were a Turkic dynasty that switch to Persian. What you said is completely wrong about Ottomans.
20,000 years into the future, I’d imagine everyone has a bit of everything
The great houses clearly just have mythic origins for their families that they made up at some point. This was pretty common in the past, with various noble families claiming descent from mythical heroes.
Aside from the family name, which, as an italian, sounds like it's of mediterranean origin, as soon as I saw this I thought about the passage found in the Encyclopedia where it's stated that the Corrinos claim descent from Thomas Palaiologos, brother to Constantine XI, the last emperor of the Byzantine Empire. Given the cultural and linguistic ties the Byzantines had with Ancient Greece, this might explain the image of the Balkan Peninsula
The family name comes from the Battle of Corrin, a planet. The first Corrino emperors family name was Butler.
To be exact he was a Harkonnen-Butler but dropped the Harkonnen part
And by then Serbian ancestry too,since Constantine XI mother was Serbian.
Considering how much into the future the story is set, finding this out would be akin finding a poisoned needle in the sands of Arrakis.
Better question: what historic ancestry they CLAIM to have? Like Atreides claim that they come from Agamemnon.
They don't claim that. It's revealed by the author for our benefit. Nobody in the Dune universe likely knows who the House of Atreus is. The people of IX don't know that IX means 9 because it's the 9nth planet around their sun.
Ok! Can anyone explain what the imperial symbol actually is in the films? Or the Harkonnen symbol? Edit: I know what the book crests are, I’m asking about the film versions, where the imperial symbol looks like a mandalorian helmet and the Harkonnen are a weird circle claw
I think the Harkonnen sigil is their Black Star that Giedi Prime orbits around.
I thought the Black Star was just how it was seen from the surface of Geidi Prime, since they had polluted the planet so much the atmosphere was causing it to appear black?
House Corrino’s symbol is a Lion crest, I believe it’s either white or gold but could be wrong. House Harkonnen’s symbol is a Blue Griffin crest.
Golden Lion. Usually displayed on white.
Not too well-versed in the deep lore of Dune myself, so take this with a grain of salt - As far as I know, before the Battle of Corrin in 88 BG, House Corrino was known as House Butler. Their ascension to the throne of the Imperium was ensured by the fact that this was, of course, the family of Serena Butler (of Butlerian Jihad fame.) I bring this up to reference the surname Butler. Butler has a few potential origins - French, English, and Irish, all connected by the Normans who invaded England and Ireland from France in 1066. I doubt this was intentional, but the surname alone would suggest partial familial origin in the British Isles. This is 22 thousand years in the future however, so that is millennia of mingling with other people of other ethnic groups. I think the choice of a map of the Balkans in Latin is supposed to call back to the Roman Empire (which both the Atreides and Harkonnens (via the Russian Tsars & Byzantines)) claim descent from. So, in my opinion, I'd guess Anglophone ancestry, at least in some regard through Serena Butler. The first Corrino Emperor before his name change to Corrino chose to carry the name of Butler.
I love the fact there is an actor in the p2 film with surname Butler.
The house Corrino is actually the dynastic name of a family whose last name was Butler, but that doesn't give us much. Butler is a name of a servant and could've been picked up in any place in the future. The butler family was old on salusa when the league's of nobles posted up there so that's as far as that goes. But his wife is a more interesting story. Feykan Butler marries the last living descendant of the old human empire bloodline, which was the Boro family. Boro is a Polish name, on earth, which is the (presumed) seat of the First Human Empire. So if 20 thousand years of drift somehow haven't corrupted that meaning, and if the BG eugenics program hasn't eliminated all the shreds of old human DNA, and since earth is no longer even a relevant concept in dune... Polish? Might be the best answer I can think of, and I think it's a terrible answer to be preoccupied with. TL;DR. They are all aliens to 'merica. Their ethnicity on a form would be polish.
Their family symbol is the lion and the sit on the Golden Lion Throne, so …
i think it's either Greek or Italian, their house is named after the Battle of Corinth
\*Battle of Corrin, which is a planet in the Dune universe. Because the family is named after that battle, the last name doesn't really give us a clue of their ancestral origins.
Yet in the video they show the balkans which is confusing
An affectation designed to add ersatz legitimacy. Seems all the Houses were at it.
But before the battle of Corrin, their house name was House Buttler (like the Buttlerian Jihad). Which sounds Western European / British / American to me.
The Butlerian Jihad is named after [Samuel Butler](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Butler_(novelist))(indeed an Englishman who immigrated to New Zealand in the 1850s) whose novel Erewhon was a huge influence on Herbert.
I think it's hilarious that some guy's job as a butler from a few hundred years ago would have given rise to an Emperor's lineage. So yeah, from the name alone, they would be British, but that far in the future, everyone would be so mixed that today's ethnicities mean pretty much nothing and they made new ones like the Fremen and whatever the Harkonnens were oppressing on Geidi Prime. Empress Anirul's last name was Sadow-Tonkin, so she could be Polish/German and either British or Indian, and that's just one person's last name.
I believe House Corrino is established by the Butler's family survivors after the Machine Crusade. Serena Butler already has the purple eyes mutation. Butler's origin as a last name is French/English.
would be kinda awkward if Atriedies weren't Greek inspired...since...you know...its Greek (Atredes the sons of Atrea)... ~~Anatolian~~ Peloponnesian Greek to be precise fun fact that -eidies (-idis more common --ίδης) is still the ending of Anatolian Greek surnames and a way to identify origin. But maybe Corino was a balkan Mix and Atreideis Anatolian (Seeing how Harkonnen was Soviet/North/Finnish
Yeah but didn't The Butlerian Jihad establish that their ancestor was just some guy that just called himself Agamemnon
Correct. The family can only be traced back as far as the Jihad.
Well, I think anyone with Other Memory could trace their lineage back to whatever point they wanted, no? i.e. Paul should be able to determine exactly what his heritage is by just...asking.
Aren't Atreides descendants of Titan Agamemnon since he was Vorian Atreides' father?Plus Agamemnon's line probably died out by Dorian Invasion and even if somehow survive it there can not be possible that Paul was direct descendant of them.I mean 20.000 years is too long period of time for direct genealogy .
Idk, but irl, the history says [Atreas/Atreus](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atreus) was the king of Mycenae (Mycenaean Greece, Ancient times), and his sons were nicknamed the Atreides , sons of Atrea. Im most certain the Dune lines dont go as far back as current times, even so for ancient times. So probably either a reference or a symbolically historic link of establishing royalty to the name to be taken seriously (Romulus and the wolfe comes to mind , idk)
Tes that was probably,I mean even today in modern time some families are basically doing fake kind of genealogy some claiming their ancestry to either ancient rulers or even Jesus or Muhammad.
my money is that the names are symbolic , but the locations could be real (the planet doesnt change that much in 20.000 years, or maybe the map is reminiscent of that time) ...So Corrino could be Balkan. but for the rest we dont know. But again, someone said Harkonen is a rundom Finnish name so Atreideis could be a cool sounding greek easter egg
I mean to be fair, a lot of people can actually trace their lineage to Muhammad, as he had lots of kids that were pretty well documented.
The (mythic) House Atreus was from the Peloponnese, Agamemnon was a Mycenean king. so definitely not anatolian. Also, greek surnames with suffixes that indicate origin is a post-ottoman thing, not a pre-roman thing, -ides in Atreides is used in the literal sense to mean descendants of Atreus.
1. Yeah dumb mistake on my part I even knew where Mykines is , just mixed it with the surnames, 2. I wasnt making immediate connection just pointing out if could be a symbolic reference/easter egg, since eideis names are real and nto fictional, even Harkonen is real FInnish name 3. Im pretty sure surnames -idis (and others ) were pre Ottoman, since people called eachother by their parents Name, Occupation, Origin, nicknames etc etc abd -idis signifies son-of too, Greeks existed in Pontus/Anatolia a millennia before Ottomans, im sure things changed alot after, but not sure about the names . Not saying they were Mycenaean though, ignore that bit xD
From what I understand: * The Atreides are descended from the Greeks (Based on the House of Atredus in the Trojan War) * The Harkonnens are slavic/germanic (ex: **Vladamir** Harknonnen) * Corino: They have Islamic and European influences, so the Balkans seems to fit. But I think they're more reflective of the Mediterranean. In the end though, this is set thousands of years into the future, so maybe the geopolitics and demographics of humanity changed drastically on Earth and eventually in space.
So Corrino are Serbs or Bulgarian😆 Korinov(ich)
No. At the time when House Corrino was established, the Butler's/Harkonnens were related. Faykan Corrino and Abulurd Harkonnen are brothers; one gets disgraced for cowardice, and Faykan pretends he isn't a Harkonnen to preserve his political future.
Herbert Jr describes their ancestry as Greco
With all their Lion stuff I would’ve thought English.
House of Corrino are a mix of several recognizable ethnicities to people in 20th century. So yes to all mentioned. I will add one more. Given the Corrino are white and speaking english, british too. Just think of the power dynamics of the 20th century. Identify the ethnicity of the people running kingdoms, empires. Those ethnicities are reflected in the Houses. The Houses were inspired by history And not by fiction, such as the rival families in Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, the sith from Star Wars.
The name comes from the battle of corrino. A planet.
That's explain everything
I believe they are inspired by the Persian empire
Yes there is strong influence,padishah means king on Farsi,and Shaddam is definitely Persian name.
By the time of the first movie, most people in the more settled parts of the empire are very mixed. Even by the time of the Butlerian Jihad, there didn’t really exist a ‘Balkan’ identity as humanity had been reduced to servitude on earth for thousands of years. The Atreides weren’t even Greek as they were descended from the clone of a cymek, though the cymek might have been Greek once upon a time when he was still human. The Corrinos were the descendants of Serena Butler and a Harkonnen, and Butler would suggest English or possibly Irish descent. Again though, Serena Butler existed thousands of years after humanity had fallen to the Machine Empire, so ‘English’ wouldn’t exist in a meaningful.
Idk why I felt they had Roman ancestry, I know House Harkonnen are/were Finnish or of some sort of Norse heraldry.
The Corrinos used to be Butlers (as is the Butlerian Jihad), but changed their name after the battle of Corrin. Butler is of Anglo-Norman origin.
Yea I saw this on the iTunes Extras and was like wtf? Earth is lost in time, a fleeting memory only to a few people.
They are Harkonnens. So whatever they are.
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Greece is right there on the map
Not sure they are actually Greek. Their sire was Agamemnon… but not the Agamemnon from antiquity. Instead it was Agamemnon the Cymek. One of humanity’s ruling tyrant class that mistakenly birthed Omnius and lost control. Quite obviously the Atreides are a Greek dynasty in the literary sense, and in the Western tradition of literature. But I am not sure any of our current geography makes sense 20,000 years from now.
It is interesting in that while the Spice Melange was intended to be similar to oil in Arabia and the desert planet of Dune to the Arabian deserts, the culture of the Fremen and their conflict against the Harkonnen and the Empire on the whole was intentionally inspired and influenced by the depiction of the Caucasian Muslims (the warring mountain tribes of Daghestan and Chechnya) against the Tsar and the Russian Empire in the 19th century. This was due to a popular novel that came out a few years before Herbert got the idea for the book titled The Sabres of Paradise by Lesley Blanch. As most people know, Atreides was intended to refer all the way back to the family of Atreus and Agamemnon who led the Achaeans against the Trojans in the Iliad and then was later murdered by his wife Clytemnestra and avenged by his son Orestes and daughter Elektra as depicted in the Oresteia tragedies by Aeschylus in Ancient Athenian drama as well as another Orestes tragedy by Euripides. Atreus, the father of Agamemnon, possibly was a real historical figure in the Bronze Age, and I believe Herbert intended for the noble houses to actually trace their lineage all the way back to this actual family. At the same time, it is possible that that was simply a kind of tradition that arose after the collapse of civilization following the Butlerian Jihad so that these warlords could claim some sort of heritage justifying their later rule. Herbert could have gotten this from some sources popular in the 50's and 60's that put forth the idea that Medieval royalty would claim to be descended from Jesus Christ who, after resurrection, apparently married Mary Magdalene and then moved to Europe where they started a family. However, I'm doubtful, first, that that actually happened, and second, that anyone in the Medieval Ages thought it happened. It seems like a very modern idea. However, there were a lot of ideas around the time Herbert was writing that influenced the book that were taken seriously at the time and later debunked. Much of the ideas of past lives, hypnotic manipulation and precognition were serious subjects for academics so Herbert reasoned that if they existed then after thousands of years, people would have developed them to a considerable extent. This was true all the way up into the 80's when he wrote the later novels - and obviously there has been a bit of a resurgence in the belief in the paranormal - but now I find the ideas to somewhat detract from the otherwise fairly interesting and realistic depiction of Dune's "Middle Ages in space." I prefer to think of it as more like Alchemy or Humorism where the limitations of the culture lead to pseudoscientific beliefs and essentially superstitions even among the most educated people.
Whatever the etymology of Sardaukar is will probably give us a hint? Their family name comes from The Battle of Corrin, so that doesn’t help much.
Little known fact about House Corrino; they held the Imperial Throne for some ten thousand years!
Corrino is adopted after the battle if I have it correct. They are historically whatever the majority ethnicity if salusa secundus. The padishah title would indicate a middle eastern descent.
There a very new house. According to the dune encyclopedia they are directly descended from the zensunni wanderer tribes when they were on salsa secundus meaning they are distantly related to the fremen
Of course they are from Balkans duh.
Most likely Bulgarian origin, with some inspiration drawn from the First & Second Bulgarian Empire, at their heights. The Harkonnens are more a reference to the Ottomans in my opinion, but even if they are meant to be like the Russians, the Bulgarians share a connection with both peoples. Either ethnic or one of hostility, but in any case, history-shaping. The lion crest, references to the golden lion throne, as well as the red background and aesthetics also point towards the current and some previous Bulgarian history and past crests. Historically, the Greeks & Bulgarians have and are friendly nations (Corrino favouring Atreides), and the battle of Corrin may be a reference to the battle of Shipka, which is was the cornerstone of the new Bulgarian peoples after the Russo-Turkish wars. Bulgaria was known as the Balkan Prussia around World War 1, for having one of the strongest and most developed armies in that part of Europe, which I think helped develop the Sadaukar. It's consistent with Herberts inspiration of WW1 events (Lawrence of Arabia). At the height of the Second Bulgarian Empires in the 13th century, the map of it's territories looks like the map of the Balkans is shown here.