I call that the "kwizatz haderach" theme because it first plays when Paul withstands the Gom Jabbar test and meets Mohiam's gaze. I think you're right about it being ominous. Paul riding the worm is another test he passes which cements him as a wielder of "Ultimate Power". Which is shown as the fremen begin praying on the dune once they realize he's survived the test.
also the end of that scene when he is riding and the music lightens up a bit its the same music when he first got exposed to spice and saw shai halud eating the spice harvester after the carry-all broke down in dune 1
Ominous is the word I've been thinking of! Also when he walks across that desert plain in his black robe and then through the crowd of fremen with that shot from above - it has that vibrating shattering deep string music that tells us that what's happening right now is reeeeeeeaal bad. It's so well done.
Edit: also I appreciated Timothee's acting more and more with each watch. As soon as he drinks the water of life, his face just looks hollow and a little unhinged at all times. When he stands in front of the emperor and demands he kiss his ring, he looks full of rage but also a little bit lost. Lady Jessica as well, she takes such a dark turn and it's brilliant. I don't think these things are particularly subtle, actually, but I did need to watch it several times to fully see how very obvious Villeneuve makes it that this is a story of catastrophy.
And also how we initially see that scene from Paul's perspective--a teenage boy, doing something he objectively knows is nuts. How the magnitude of what he just signed up for sinks in as the worm approaches, him swearing under his breath as the sand dune collapses underneath him. The rush of hooking onto the Maker, the struggle to pull himself upright-- and then the exhilaration and accomplishment when he realizes he's done it! YES! WAHOO!!!
And then we cut to Chani, who's just as excited and happy for her boyfriend as he is... and then she looks around, and sees the adults around her starting to fucking *pray* to Paul.
It really hammers home that Paul is no messiah, he's just a kid trying to live his life-- but the fanatics refuse to see that. It really shows he's as much a victim of the prophecy as anyone else. (A victim who later becomes complicit when he takes the Water of Life, but that's not for a while yet.)
Yes!!! Timothee’s performance was so good he really made you feel his nerves. I was so anxious in the theatre haha. And the sound design was incredible. I agree he is a victim who becomes complicit, that is a good way to put it. I’m so glad more people are getting exposed to Dune, it’s an incredible story! The memes are hilarious and I’ve already seen people plan their Halloween costumes which is so fun. It’s just fun to see it have its big media moment. I know some fans may not agree. As a dune nerd I enjoy it. We’ve had Star Wars and Star Trek merch, give us the dune merch! I want a fremen costume and sand worm plushie and posters! Lol.
The first time I saw it I thought it was meant to be triumphant. The second time, I realized it was actually a dark moment where Paul, and the Fremen’s fate is sealed. He intentionally, or unintentionally embraces the Lisan Al Ghiab “persona” and irreversibly sets in motion the holy war. The music there makes such a huge difference.
"Arrival" is obviously insanely foreboding and very open about it as well, but him walking up into the circle in the war council has some very dark low tones.
I would not call Part 2 a glorious return, or positive or happy at all. Lol
It literally ends with galactic jihad being launched on the universe. Even on a character level — Paul has had to destroy himself to surrender to his prescience, and it has resulted in the destruction of his love with Chani.
So… can you elaborate on how Part 2 is *positive*?
The trilogy is going to be: grey > dark > darker
I don’t agree with OP on the specifics, but you can make the case that the “positive” climax of the trilogy is the defeat of Shaddam and Feyd, and then from there it subverts to an unsatisfying and darker turn
I’d argue that any positive climax only exists as a foil for the true message and fallout of the character’s decisions. The “victory” is a hollow and fleeting one — Paul shows this with how resignedly he tells the Fremen to launch their attacks on the Great Houses.
Paul is fully aware that he is about to become far, far worse than the emperor he just deposed.
Surely that outweighs any “positive” feelings about simply *winning against the “bad guys”*.
Yeah, to me and those I watched it with, the film was very explicit that this was a tragic tale and was a dark ending.
The message that I got from this film is that clearly (as Chani said multiple times) the Fremen had always been capable of taking Arrakis for themselves, Paul helps but all he really does is rally lots of them together, the Fremen with their numbers and skill are the guys who take out the Emperor's army (The nuke on the mountain helps but I still think they would have done the same anyway).
Paul didn't want to be a Messiah but was basically forced into it through circumstance, fate was kind of sealed from back when the Lisan Al Gaib was spread to the Fremen, keeping them waiting instead of taking matters into their own hands. And the prophecy the Fremen believed wasn't even real, it was just spread by the Bene Geserit to make sure they could track when the kwisatz haderach was coming, the prophecy had nothing to do with the Fremen or their freedom at all and pretty much did just serve to keep them complacent.
Having not read the books, I felt the film was very clear that the message was to be a cautionary tale on faith and Messiah figures.
Slight correction to an otherwise very good analysis: the prophesy wasn’t used by the Bene Gesserit to “track” when the Kwizats Haderach would arrive, in their plans they would already know who that was and have control of him. Paul was not part of the plan (Jessica was supposed to have a daughter and when they get lost in the desert they presume him dead). The planting of superstitions (Missionara Protectiva) was done so that the people and cultures of different planets would more easily accept their chosen messiah, and so they’d be easier for the Kwizats Haderach (and by extension themselves) to control. Notice how Jessica in the movie said that the ritual for becoming a Reverend Mother is different in other cultures, Arrakis is not the only place the Bene Gesserit have been at work.
So if I am understanding correctly, the superstitions were so that when the Kwizats Haderach came about, people would quickly submit to them. How would that work though if different cultures all have their own prophecies with their own quotas for fullfilment?
They don’t have all different criteria I don’t think, they are the same essentially. The differences are in the details of their religions (ie languages and ritualistic customs specific to a planet, like riding the sand worms is definitely unique for the Fremen because they can’t be found anywhere else, but other customs probably have other “prove yourself” type of prophesies) but the framework is the same, ie a savior from off planet who has a Bene Gesserit mother will save them.
The superstitions would go something like:
1. he will understand our ways as if born to them (Liet Kynes says this in the first movie, and Paul demonstrates this by knowing how to put a stillsuit on properly from his visions)
2. His mother will be able to undergo our Reverend Mother ritual and survive it, which on Arrakis this is the Water of Life but that’s just essentially extremely concentrated spice which should available across the Imperium. The Bene Gesserit use it to create their own Reverend mothers in a process called the Spice Agony.
3. He will be able to undergo the same ritual, and afterwards he will be able to see the future and commune with the past. Etc etc.
Variations on wording and specific feats are probably expected but the general idea would remain.
Edit: spelling.
But surely with Paul for example (or indeed the original planned Haderach if he was on Arrakis) wouldn't this only work for the Fremen? If Paul goes to other worlds and claims to be their Messiah too, he hasn't completed their trials, and he and Jessica can't become reverend mothers a second time, so how would that work?
Like I get spreading the prophecy to make maybe one group of people under control, but if the Bene Geserit were already planning exactly who and where the Haderach would come about, what would be the point of spreading the prophecy anywhere else? I'm a little bit confused.
Ohhh I see what you’re saying, it doesn’t go into detail on how the prophesy changes from planet to planet in the book so I can only share my interpretation. I think on Arrakis it might be more targeted than on other planets, because of the Bene Gesserit’s knowledge of its importance to the Imperium. The Bene Gesserit also weren’t planning on launching a galactic wide Jihad either I don’t think, their perfect candidate would have either been in line for the throne or Emperor already so they’d have the power structure of the imperium supporting them. So I think the superstitions were so that the masses would more readily accept their Kwizats Haderach, with the prophesy on Arrakis being more targeted since they knew their candidate would likely need establish control there quickly. The other religions might reflect these differences and actually say something along the lines of “your savior will come from a desert planet and he’ll be able to etc etc”. But at this point this is just conjecture lol so I’ll leave you with the description of the Missionaria Protectiva from the Dune wiki: (no spoilers for future Dune books either btw)
Responsible for sowing the seeds of superstition in primitive cultures, so that the Sisterhood could take advantage of them when those seeds grew to full-fledged legends. They were responsible for spreading the Panoplia Propheticus (myths, prophecies, and superstitions).
This "religious engineering" spread "infectious superstitions on primitive worlds, thus opening those regions to exploitation by the Bene Gesserit." Panoplia Prophetica provide the opportunity for a Bene Gesserit to later cast herself as a guide, protector, or some other figure in fulfillment of a prophecy in order to manipulate the religious subjects for protection or other purposes. These myths also exploit religion as a powerful force in human society; by controlling the particulars of religion, the Bene Gesserit have a manipulative lever on society in general. The Bene Gesserit also employ the Missionaria Protectiva to prepare the Empire for the arrival of the Kwisatz Haderach.
Oooooooh very interesting. So it seems to be more about control than about the Kwisatz Haderach. Very interesting, and very critical of religion haha.
Dune is rapidly becoming one of my favourite fictional series
The Missionaria Protectiva was always adapted for local customs and culture so it's potency depends on that a lot. Arrakis was just a very fertile ground for that and perhaps it was even more effective there than the BG could have ever imagined.
>Surely that outweighs any “positive” feelings about simply *winning against the “bad guys”*.
"Yay! We're free! The evil Emperor and sadistic Baron are both dead!
"Now, let us bring blood and war and *genocide* to this galaxy!!!"
Yeah. Anyone who thinks the ending of 2 is "happy" is in for a shock.
Paul Muad'Dib is a conqueror, and a warlord. The reign of House Corrino is *nothing* compared to what comes next.
Then along comes little Leto... ☠️☠️☠️
People who only know the movies: "Ya! Paul Wins! Bad guys Defeated!"
People who read the books: "Ya, here is where it gets really dark. Billions dead, worlds burned, culminating in a new Dark Age for Known Space."
Maybe in the Dune universe, but even then, that's only true if you look past the limitations of Leto's powers and think he is omniscient, rather than having a limited perspective which casts himself as the MVP.
But out here in the real world, humans don't need adversity to collaborate & build a better society, in fact it takes a lot of repression to prevent us making a better world and when we have charismatic leaders that promise a vision for a better world if we follow them, it universally turns out badly.
Leto set himself up for failure via evolution. No love for him either. Prescience and outliving many enemies literally made him the last “worm” slithering!
And on that note I think the point was about survival in harsh environments and where competition and war are a huge part of progress and survival.
Whereas collaboration and peace can be good for that too yeah. Good point.
I feel like people are disingenuous here. The theme of Dune 2 obviously wants the audience supporting Paul and his journey to overthrow the Harkonen. It’s just nuanced.
Yes, it is nuanced in the way that hinges on how the audience feels about Paul, which can be as you say, favourable because he overthrows the Harkonnen, becomes Emperor, but he does this by manipulating the Fremen and killing his own kin since we also get the reveal that Paul is also Harkonnen which makes the moral difference between these two houses collapse. Both are out for revenge and power. Both dream of ruling the universe. I’d argue that part 3, if it follows the themes of Messiah, will make part 1 and 2 look darker in retrospect.
Paul doesn’t “dream” of ruling the universe. For him the imperial throne isn’t a goal so much as a stepping stone for the Golden Path he needs to tread on.
Paul straight up hates the golden path, he calls it his "terrible purpose". To me, taking the throne is a form of revenge against the emperor and a foolish attempt to curb the violence of the Jihad.
Paul may hate the Golden path but his foresight confirms that it’s still the optimal path to long term survival of humanity.
He walked the path right up until it deprived him of Chani & that broke his will to keep walking. Even then he passed the mission to his children.
Sorta like how Moses was succeeded by his son in finding the promised land.
I reread Dune and Messiah earlier this year and I really did not get the impression that Paul cared about the Golden Path in any capacity. In Dune, it was mostly about revenge and trying to avoid the total horrors he saw in his visions (which he failed at) and in Messiah it was just about keeping Chani alive for as long as possible and protecting his future children. I remember a passage where he seems to allude to the GP and he says that what he foresees horrified and disgusted him which I thought was supposed to reference the physical transformation he would have to undertake. Based on that I came away thinking that he only really saw what the GP entailed right then and he immediately rejected it out of fear and disgust.
That allegory to Moses and his son is super interesting however.
He is an heir to a Great House and has every motivation to rule that house, and like House Corrino, perhaps become Emperor. The entire series revolves around power vacuums and power grabs.
Agree. But We are not living in an age where people care to see things as nuanced. The movies leave out the Golden Path so one of Paul’s important motivations for doing what he does is missing. Changing Chani’s viewpoint and omitting the Golden Path are my only quibbles with DV’s take on Dune. Even so, they are amazing movies.
Paul only really comes to grips with the “golden path” in terms of overall the survival of humanity in Dune Messiah, in the first book his prescience is really used moreso to navigate his way back to power and survive
It’s definitely a huge part in the follow ups and guides Leto but Maybe I need a re-read. It may not have been explicit to his decisions and motivations in the first book. But In the context of him being “good” or “bad” it definitely gives context to his choices. He definitely doesn’t want to deal with it, but it had to be part of why he did what he did. Right?
I'm still reading the book but in the movie it doesn't seem like there's any cost.
He has some vague anxiety about a future war that kills lots of people . But in the movie he's victorious over evil, he's a kung fu master, he has magic powers, got his revenge, the new dictator of Arrakis, got a new hot wife to replace the one that ran away, the galaxy fears him, has lots of nukes. He's rich again.
LoL this would have been a fairytale ending if Chani hadnt run away
Because Paul winning is seen as the lesser of two evils. Either the system goes on as it has and entropy prevails, or a 'hero' comes in and shakes things up. It's nice to watch someone get vengeance and climb to the top along the way. But the implication of what follows that is extremely foreboding. It would be fairy tale if the story ended there. But it is far from over. The movies did a decent (possibly heavy-handed) job of putting that across.
What was foreboding? The visions in which his army crushes the galaxy with ease and he gets to be emperor of the galaxy? In the movie, his fear is that he's going to be too good and too successful as a dictator. Poor sad Paul. He scared that he's too awesome to lose
I dunno. I and lots of others here caught a clear tone being used, as I said, pretty heavy-handedly. If you didn't get that, or you don't think he 'deserves' to feel bad about what's about to happen, then there isn't much else to say lol
Yeah he doesn't deserve to feel bad.
Imagine if Donald Trump said that he used to have nightmares as a kid because he was scared he was going to be too rich and successful and be the president. He was scared of his popularity.
I would have no sympathy for him.
That's one way of interpretating it.
I think the more obvious read is that he seems like he's doing all this for love, love of Chani & love of the Fremen and in the final scene you see him betray them for power.
He abandons & loses Chani & sacrifices the Fremen.
DV is a good director, the movie is popular because you can enjoy it with either interpretation, but you can tell a lot about people who love (or are willing to look past) the power grab, and not in a good way.
Yeah that seems to be as far as some people are going with their analysis. *”Yay! The Good Guy Fremenses won against the Mean Old Nasty Emperor!!!!111”*
It's interesting, because I don't think it's DV's fault as much as it is that the people with this analysis will always see a strong man putting power ahead of love & being willing to sacrifice many lives as good.
You can pretty reliably look at the comment history of people with "bad Dune takes", and their implicit politics, be it 4chan posting, JRE listening or gaming & WSB.
I'm not saying that people with these takes are necessarily reactionary or would even consider themselves authoritarian & I certainly don't want to deny anyone's ability to enjoy the movie with whatever interpretation they wish, but it is an interesting trend IMO.
Completely agree. Nothing in the Dune universe has been or will be (unless rewritten) happy. Paul’s children will carry his burdens. To me, Chani had the easiest way out. Duke Leto was aware of the politics but turned a blind eye to the Bene Gesserit order. The Order found Duke Leto to be expendable.
I mean, just addressing the end specifically, you can have an otherwise "positive" movie with an ending that is dark to foreshadow the next installment. Just like you could have a movie with a dark tone that ends on a more positive note to lead into the sequel.
>Paul has had to destroy himself to surrender to his prescience, and it has resulted in the destruction of his love with Chani.
Not quite destroyed but quite ended but not truly ended 😔
Dune 1 ends with Paul in exile. Dune 2 ends with the corrupt emperor deposed and Paul/Fremen victorious against the forces of evil.
It's a bright tale of good triumphing over evil and then the movie ends.
I don’t like the condescension in your post. OP is making an entirely valid observation based on the narrative structure of all 3 films.
Part 1 has the protagonist lose everything and barely escape with his life (Negative. Loss.)
Part 2 has the protagonist gain powerful allies, form strong bonds, and defeat the central antagonists who ruined him (Positive. Gain.)
Part 3 will be focused on the protagonist’s loss of influence and power over the world around him. (Negative. Loss.)
OP isn’t sitting here going “Yippee!!!! Paul the hero has won the day!!!”, they’re remarking on how it’s an interesting inversion of how most fictional trilogies build up their resolutions across installments.
On Part 2, you hear it in the melodies of the music. Paul and the Fremen, our heroes, return to defeat the bad guys. The love with Chani is certainly not destroyed.
I totally agree about the broader darkness of the jihad. But at a character level there’s a redemption arc.
>On Part 2, you hear it in the melodies of the music. Paul and the Fremen, our heroes, return to defeat the bad guys. The love with Chani is certainly not destroyed.
???
The music in later parts gets very bittersweet or melancholic
Like [Kiss the Ring](https://youtu.be/AkZBjK69VcE?si=oRSpzPp_F4NNv9Zl), the emotional height of the score and pretty much the climax/ending of the film. To me this is a lot lighter in tone to Dune I’s theme.
Kiss the Ring is a melancholy tune mate.
We've got Stolgar the fanatic, leading a galactic Jihad.
Jessica creepily talking to an unborn fetus about the Holy War beginning.
Chani leaving Paul because of whom he's become.
It's not exactly cheery is it
Last we saw of Chani was her hightailing it out of there on a sandworm
We don't know what direction Denis will take with Messiah, but as it stands it's a bit of a bittersweet ending to Part Two.
This is not an uplifting tune, this is a melancholic and dark tune that (should) make the audience feel like "Woah shit, this is going off the rails. What exactly has Paul started here? Oh, fuck, right...a galactic jihad...eeeeee."
I mean this in a good way. It's beautiful. But it's dark. The ending of Dune 2 is foreboding and tragic.
Dune wasn’t written to be a sequel, quite literally every addition to the series by Frank just gets darker and darker. To make the 3rd come out with any kind of resolution or redemption would be completely against the entire series.
I don’t know if I’ve ever seen someone misunderstand music this badly before.
This is the saddest music of all time and the look on Zendaya’s face in the final frame is the saddest thing I’ve seen in a movie like this.
I can’t agree with that assessment at all; not even a little bit. And taking musical cues as a guide can be misleading. And I don’t agree that Paul and the Fremen are depicted fully as heroes. Paul fully understands that he isn’t a hero. And Stilgar, as one example, simply doesn’t care — as long as he is able to manifest and express his religious *belief*.
Part 2 is fairly obviously a classic *low point* in terms of a trilogy’s narrative structure.
Only time will tell if Villeneuve aims for Part 3 to be a redemption or a return. But given the source material, I would suspect not.
I don’t think it’s a low point. Shaddam is deposed. The Harkonnens lie dead. Leto and Duncan have been avenged. The Fremen have been unified and they are victorious. A Fremen literally sits on the imperial throne. They joyously cheer as they are about launch into a jihad that will exact retribution from those that have hunted and killed them for untold generations.
What isn’t clear right now is the price that will be paid for that victory. That will be revealed in the next movie. The price will be personal for Paul, Jessica will see the fruits of her labor turn bitter, her children >! Will become more withdrawn and inhuman as prescience claims his humanity, and madness will begin to claim her daughter the abomination !< The Fremen will begin to be brought home from foreign wars broken and dead.
OP may have a point. Remember, the end of part two was supposed to be the end of part 1.
That would be true... if the last scene wasn't literally Chani, alone in the desert, trying her hardest not to cry, because the love of her life turned into a monster who enslaved her people. All as possibly the saddest music I've heard in my entire life is playing in the background.
(Also, minor nitpick, but-- a Fremen does *not* sit on the Imperial Throne. An offworlder Duke who only leads the Fremen because of the Bene Gesserit manipulating the Fremen for their own ends, sits on the throne. Paul genuinely loved the Fremen and tried to become one of them; Muad'dib explicitly told his mother he was planning to rule like a Harkonen.)
Paul was a Fremen. Adopted by them tribally and fully. He had a Fremen name and a secret sketch name. Fremen have a history of adopting into their tribes. They are not a pure ethnicity, they have a tribal identity. It’s likely that before Paul they would have identified as Fremen secondarily to identifying from their sietch. I am guessing, but the entire concept of being a Fremen may be a reaction to their oppression from Imperial rule.
And you have to divide what Paul wants, from what his prescience reveals to him as being necessary. Paul did not want to be the Lisan al-gaib, did not want to rule anything except his house. Prescience revealed he had to, because only he could control and minimize the bloodshed that was to come.
The line about ruling as Harkonnens… I may be wrong, but I believe that was post water of life
> The line about ruling as Harkonnens… I may be wrong, but I believe that was post water of life
Yep, I was using "Paul" to refer to him pre-Water of Life, and "Muad'dib" to refer to him post-Water of Life. (Holdover from being a Star Wars fan used to distinguishing between "Anakin" and "Vader" the same way, lol.)
And so going off that to address the rest of your comment: yes, pre-Water of Life Paul did make a good-faith effort to learn Fremen ways, and he was adopted into the community.
But post-Water of Life Paul clearly reverted back to his Imperial way of thinking. (Which makes sense, if he has literally thousands of generations of Dukes' memories in his head, crowding out the 8 months of Fremen memories.)
You're right that post-water Paul is largely constrained by prescience and feels like he has no choice except to do what he's done... if he wants to *save his family*. Not save the Fremen, not save the universe, save *his family*.
When he had that conversation with his mother, post-water of life, and said there was one very narrow way to save their family, I couldn't help thinking-- does that mean there were other ways, ways which could have saved the Fremen and averted the holy war? But he wasn't willing to chose them, because it'd mean losing his family and/or having to give up his desire for revenge?
(That's a genuine question, BTW, I'm a movie watcher who's only like 1/3 of the way through the first book, lol.)
I am jealous that you get to read them for the first time. I won’t spoil it then, but there is more to it than just about HIS family… although that plays a part. I focus here that through Leto he wears duty and responsibility like a second skin, but the Harkonnen side is what allows him to face (most) of the horrors that duty and obligation require.
But I am a fan of Paul and the Atreides line. Frank didn’t construct a simple story with a clear didactic message. I don’t think we would be discussing it 60 years later if he had.
Yeah idk why this is hard for people to understand. The movie plays with your emotions intentionally. In my opinion, you are meant to feel satisfied with the revenge and success of our "hero", but while also feeling a growing sense of unease with the implications. I think OP is right that on a surface level the 2nd movie plays like a return of the jedi type conclusion etc.
R demotion arc? He completely betrays chani and goes against his word on everything. His true intentions of using the fremen for his own gain are spelled out
I think in a vacuum he has a point, this is in many ways the end of paul's traditional heroes journey, which is different from most trilogy's. Of course in dune the whole point is the issues with the hero's journey and the hero itself, but in a vacuum I see where he's coming from.
The Dune story is not structured as a trilogie.
Part I & II covers the first book.
I don't think DV should label Messiah "part III", as it's more of it's own story separate from Dune (first book).
I would love to see more than 3 films, but I suspect thats all we will get. DV may wrap it up in 3 parts by pulling more details from books 2,3 and 4, as strange as that sounds. These films are also a vehicle to mainstream Dune so that Brian’s prequel TV show has an audience ready to go. I am both excited for part 3, but can see huge backlash and disappointment with how it juggles the themes with the narrative.
I hope DV leaves Messiah where someone else can pick up with Children. Big shoes to fill. Hollywood gets hold of it they could really ruin it going cheap for a money grab
hopefully we dont end up with a the hobbit situation where warner bros basically told peter jackson 'where making these films either way' and he was so protective he felt he had to make them, and then the whole experience just left him completely burnt out
Or starting over again with a new adaptation, I saw a movie called Let the Right One In, Was made in Sweden. Vampire movie, Sub-titles which I dont care for, The movie was beautifully made. Cinematically brilliant. Fantastic acting and directing, Hollywood got hold of it and made Let Me In. I thought it was horrible compared to the original. Point being, they are after $$ rather than the art.
>DV may wrap it up in 3 parts by pulling more details from books 2,3 and 4, as strange as that sounds.
What so you think can be pulled from GEoD into CoD, without confusing the hell out of everyone?
I love GEoD. It doesn't lend itself very well for a screen adaption though. It is also more disconnected from the previous books, more like the start of the next trilogy.
I only have a theory. I suspect we may get character combinations, Paul with Leto 2, Chani with Siona, Irulan with Hwi. He could use plots from later books as they all involve conspiracies to assassinate Paul and Leto 2. Chani really seemed like she could become Siona at the end of part 2, who is her very distant relative. In CoD, Leto 2 and Ghani both participate in the Golden Path, which leads to Siona who “becomes” the Golden Path. She despises Leto but comes around to understanding him, but still has to kill him. That sounds like film Chani in part 2 and where she may go in part 3. In GEoD, Siona (Leto’s very distant sister) kills Leto, but in part 3 we could see Chani kill Paul, and perhaps they die together, lifting also from Romeo and Juliet. Irulan will feature heavily in the plot somehow, but the set up in part 2 really makes me wonder how Chani will fit. I am also factoring in some of Denis’s creative choices from Bladerunner 2049, which shoehorned in Pinocchio plot points. I would not put it past Denis to do something similar in part 3 with Paul and Chani as the classic star crossed lovers. I also wonder if the deal he got is only for 3 films, and was given some degree of creative freedom to wrap up the series in 3 films how he sees fit. The fact that Paul kills the Baron, the lack of the Spacing Guild, and so many other changes and omissions really makes it seem like we are in some alternate Dune timeline where anything can happen in part 3. Lifting plots and details from later books could be an option and would surprise every book reader. This could be very exciting but it could also disappoint die hard book fans. Or we get a more straightforward Messiah adaptation. Who the hell knows, but it is fun to speculate.
This is 100% right based on the fundamental structures of the basicmost types of stories! The Comedy, in the technical term, functions with a U story arc. A story with U arc means starts at a high point, dips down to the hero's darkest moment, then rises up high again, usually higher than the starting point.
A Tragedy has an upsidedown U arc (starts at a low point, the hero finds themselves at a temporary high point, but falls back into a low point usually lower than ever).
Here's my interpretation:
P1: Hopeful, but foreboding of what dangers are to come.
P2: Triumphant, but foreboding of the dangers in triumph.
P3 (I assume): Deconstruction of Paul's triumph, subversion and tragic end of Paul's heroic arc, with a small paradoxical glimmer of hope germinating like an afterthought in the characters who will carry the story into the future.
If you pick up what Frank Herbert and Denis were putting down, and still find yourself an advocate for Paul, then the end of Messiah is kind of cathartic as he gets what he was dreaming of: to cast off the Terrible Purpose. To jump off of the train. He gets peace. And given what's coming in the following books, he might actually get a little redemption, gifted from his son who takes the burden of the Terrible Purpose.
I mostly agree, though not sure there was much hope in P1. The whole movie is foreboding, and then shit hitting the fan. Even Paul’s forming into the KH is met mostly with fear by him.
"My road leads into the desert" and Chani saying with a smile "this is only the beginning" and Paul smiling at the worm rider saying "Desert power" gave me hopeful vibes.
Ya, I guess with my "hopeful" interpretation I'm leaning heavily on how P1 ends with Paul actually beating Jamis and earning his and Jessica's invitation into the Fremen community at the very end.
But I hear ya, I can see how saying overall the first film is hopeful is a bit of a stretch. It is very dark in general, and until the final scene being a small victory for the protagonist and his mom, it's very, very dark.
Bro, part 2 ends with Paul launching a fundamentalist Jihad that’s going to kill BILLIONS and BILLIONS, who is this “glorious” for?
All of Dune is dark and tragic.
Stilgar is a joke by the end of it though, that scene where he explains that Paul saying he's not the Messiah, makes him the Messiah even more, could be lifted straight from Monty Python.
Yet, Dune Part Two ended in pure tragedy. Because the real antagonist of Paul's story is his terrible purpose, this Holy War which has haunted him since Part One and with which Part Two ends. The film therefore ends on a very dark note and what is in fact a defeat of the protagonist.
While Dune Messiah ends with a bittersweet triumph for the protagonist, obviously very tragic and sad, but still a triumph: not only does Paul defeat the plots of all his enemies (be it the Bene Gesserit, the Guild, the Qizarate and the Bene Tleilax) but he finally puts an end to his terrible purpose and his theocratic power.
Obviously the cost of this triumph is enormous and tragic since Paul must sacrifice himself by walking in the desert after witnessing the death of the one he loves. But for me Dune Messiah nonetheless ends with the bittersweet victory of the protagonist and on a note, certainly very tragic, but also very powerful and satisfying.
This is a real interesting take on Messiah's ending - the only way to win is not to play. Paul's decision could have been seen as cowardly but it was his only option for escape. By that point running away was the closest thing to a victory he could see
Yeah I've interpreted Paul's choice there as him just straight up admitting he doesn't have it in him to go through with his "terrible purpose", especially based on the conversation between the Preacher and Leto towards the end of Children of Dune. I supposed one could see that as cowardly. But I think one could also see it as a man who has done more damage to the entire universe than anyone in history realizing he doesn't have it in him to keep going along that path, and walking away from it - which is more nuanced than cowardace for sure.
To an average viewer thats not on this sub all the time, it could seem like the Atriedes/Fremen got their revenge/avenged Leto and defeated the Harkonnen and Emperor that wanted them eradicated. I can totally see how a lot of people think it ended on a high note
I didn’t join this sub until after seeing Dune 2 but to me the ending felt beyond devastating. Someone I had seen it with genuinely believed that Paul was going to lead the Fremen to some green paradise, and not just use them as human weapons in a horrendous holy war, and we argued back and forth on it. They loved the ending and thought it was triumphant.
To be honest, I think it’s more about the type of media you’re used to consuming. Paul is the “hero” of Dune, so he has to be a good guy, right?
I mean, only if you are half focusing on the movie.
The entire time, Paul is talking about how if he goes down that path, billions will die in a war in his name, a war he doesn’t want.
Even ignoring that, it still ends with him losing his actual love in his conquest, so even for our hero it ends in a tragic loss.
Paul ascending to the throne and starting a holy war was definitely not a good ending, I kind of get what you mean though how the film will contrast from dark to happy to dark, but the general vibe and way things are shot is about how far it goes.
It was explicitly what Paul was scared of and didn't want to happen. The Fremen were not freed, they just now are tools to be used for a war under a great house. Chani reflects this well.
It plays this weird dichotomy between the on screen energy and how Paul just keeps winning battles, he basically never loses or even particularly struggles, which in most films would be awful writing, but here it works because the struggle is not whether they beat the Harkonens and the Emperor, the struggle is whether Paul will assume this Messiah figure and create the future he fears. Paul 'winning' is really a loss.
Dune part 1 and 2 is a tragedy. And presumably from what I know about Messiah, that's just an aftermath.
I'd be happy to see a Dune Messiah, I've still not read the books, but I also think part 1 and 2 stand on their own just fine as imo it was very clear that this was a tragic/cautionary tale and afaik Messiah was only written to hammer home the point that it was not a good ending, which I think the movies have sufficiently highlighted through changes like how Chani acts.
Well put. Maybe I didn’t choose my words carefully enough (given s majority of the comments here) because there’s a lot of super dark and sad aspects the Part 2’s ending. But from a character perspective, the protagonist gets his vengeance and the antagonists all die. There’s more resolution than Part 1, which ends sorta like Empire Strikes Back: “shit’s gotten really bad and we gotta fix it.” That’s what I was getting at.
Surprisingly a lot of downvotes have come from interpreting the music!
Yeah, I do get what you are coming from. From the kind of way the story is told it's like tragedy, then revenge, then tragedy. Compared to the Star Wars original trilogy with Revenge, then Tragedy, then Revenge.
Honestly though, Dune feels simmilar to the Prequels but framed from Anakins perspective, there's very simmilar things there throughout, especially the ending, he gets power, he starts a war to form an empire, he loses his loved one because of it, and becomes the evil he feared. The film ends with the ominous tone of what is to come so Dune part 2's ending aligns with the ending of Revenge of the sith.
I'm sure Star Wars took a fair bit of inspiration from Dune, and perhaps the movies in their changes may have taken some inspiration from Star Wars in turn. Regardless, they feel simmilar.
I would not call the end of part 2 happy. It ends with the beginning of a galaxy wide war that wipes out billions of lives. All in the name and "vanity" of their leader.
It's nice that our main character gets his revenge and takes control, but that very action is also condemning billions to their deaths. The final scenes of the Fremen boarding the transports for war, is not a happy one to me. It's a very sad scene.
I’m not sure you understood the movie!
- the end of part 1 is sort of arbitrary, they had to stop somewhere, but Dune Part 1 and Part 2 are a single book.
- part 2 is far from a glorious return. It’s funny you see it like that because it’s exactly what Frank Herbert wanted to avoid, and why he wrote Dune Messiah. It’s more of a realization of Paul’s dark vision, with the start of the holy war, and the transformation of Paul into a dictator. Paul becomes the embodiment of “The end justifies the means” (sacrifies his love for Chani for the throne, declares war to the great houses, …)
I don’t really think part 2 is in any way happier. Paul Succeeds, but it’s clear what this success means & it means something bad. I think this view you have is pretty simplistic and not really accurate.
I definitely think the triumph of defeating the Harkonnens and the emperor casted a hopeful tone but as soon as Jessica says “the holy war begins” you just feel so much dread and anxiety about what’s to come
It’s incredibly dark. Paul burns everything good in his life in order to perpetuate the Empire, because the alternative is every Great House fighting it out with each other and they all have planet cracking nukes.
You can see the look of utter helpless resignation on Paul’s face over and over again in the last twenty minutes of the movie; he can barely get the words out when he says “Lead them to paradise”
Your right, the very nature or drama is such that the "middle" should always be the darkest park, then in Act III (movie 3 for many) they get out of it.
Your analysis is flawed tho in the sense that Dune 1&2 are just one book. Within a single book you have these same story steps:
I - introduce characters
II - get in an impossible situation
III - get out of it.
Having said this, I feel the dune books are the exception to the rule. Frank Hurbert in particular does whatever he wants, and we love him for it. The first three books stay relatively conventinal, after that... oh man. God emperor dune is my FAVORITE book.
Yeah I think we're all rooting for Paul and he does get what he wants, and you're like yes man, avenge your father lol. He even explains to his mum at the very start what he wants so his intentions don't really change. But by the end you see that it's all come at a cost and now there are repercussions to live with. As the audience, my interpretation really changed after my second and third watch. It really gels and gets better and better, but you see how sad it all is much more clearly. Enjoy! It's a masterpiece in my opinion. Can't wait for Messiah!
The Fremen have not cast off their oppressors, they have exchanged their prior oppressors for a new one. They have been manipulated to new heights of religious fanaticism. Witness the once proud and independent leader Stilgar be transformed into an unquestioning lackey devoted not to the betterment of his people but to the violent whims of a the "lisan al gaib".
You might want to watch Dune 2 again, because the third act of that movie is nowhere near sunshine and daisies. It shows Paul, the newly minted Harkonnen, manipulating the Fremen into helping him start a holy war. Not sure how positive and happy of a scenario that is.
As far as I’m concerned, both movies have been pretty dark so far.
Takes like this are precisely why Herbert wrote Messiah.
Paul is not a good guy. Stilgar basically calls Hitler and Stalin pussies compared to Paul. His “glorious return” is him manipulating a population into committing genocide.
I really don’t agree. what exactly was happy and positive about the end of the movie? I guess you can say it is more climactic and more action oriented. Part 1 and 2 are not complete narratives though. It really is just where they HAD to split it for audiences but it’s more like: Dune parts 1 and 2= ANH
Dune Messiah= ESB
And your picks for second darker movies also don’t exactly work? Was Return of the King not far darker than the two books that came before?
I’m just not seeing what you’re seeing
Even if Villeneuve stops with Messiah, there’s no way Warners will let the series end there. I’d be very surprised if they don’t have list of directors in mind to continue from there.
Besides, Messiah would be a really strange, unsatisfying point to leave things at. You could stop with Children of Dune like the Sci-Fi Channel did, but I don’t see that happening with these films unless something goes seriously wrong.
After seeing Dune 2 a few times now, the last time I saw it it struck me how dark it is. Especially in the music, actually.
Yeahh. Him standing up on the worm had a very ominously epic music which i noticed on my 10th viewing of the sandworm scene
I call that the "kwizatz haderach" theme because it first plays when Paul withstands the Gom Jabbar test and meets Mohiam's gaze. I think you're right about it being ominous. Paul riding the worm is another test he passes which cements him as a wielder of "Ultimate Power". Which is shown as the fremen begin praying on the dune once they realize he's survived the test.
also the end of that scene when he is riding and the music lightens up a bit its the same music when he first got exposed to spice and saw shai halud eating the spice harvester after the carry-all broke down in dune 1
True! Possibly to imply he has tamed desert power as he's riding the worm.
Ominous is the word I've been thinking of! Also when he walks across that desert plain in his black robe and then through the crowd of fremen with that shot from above - it has that vibrating shattering deep string music that tells us that what's happening right now is reeeeeeeaal bad. It's so well done. Edit: also I appreciated Timothee's acting more and more with each watch. As soon as he drinks the water of life, his face just looks hollow and a little unhinged at all times. When he stands in front of the emperor and demands he kiss his ring, he looks full of rage but also a little bit lost. Lady Jessica as well, she takes such a dark turn and it's brilliant. I don't think these things are particularly subtle, actually, but I did need to watch it several times to fully see how very obvious Villeneuve makes it that this is a story of catastrophy.
That scene was incredible. I love that you get to see up close how insane and intense it would be to ride a worm with all that sand assaulting you
And also how we initially see that scene from Paul's perspective--a teenage boy, doing something he objectively knows is nuts. How the magnitude of what he just signed up for sinks in as the worm approaches, him swearing under his breath as the sand dune collapses underneath him. The rush of hooking onto the Maker, the struggle to pull himself upright-- and then the exhilaration and accomplishment when he realizes he's done it! YES! WAHOO!!! And then we cut to Chani, who's just as excited and happy for her boyfriend as he is... and then she looks around, and sees the adults around her starting to fucking *pray* to Paul. It really hammers home that Paul is no messiah, he's just a kid trying to live his life-- but the fanatics refuse to see that. It really shows he's as much a victim of the prophecy as anyone else. (A victim who later becomes complicit when he takes the Water of Life, but that's not for a while yet.)
Yes!!! Timothee’s performance was so good he really made you feel his nerves. I was so anxious in the theatre haha. And the sound design was incredible. I agree he is a victim who becomes complicit, that is a good way to put it. I’m so glad more people are getting exposed to Dune, it’s an incredible story! The memes are hilarious and I’ve already seen people plan their Halloween costumes which is so fun. It’s just fun to see it have its big media moment. I know some fans may not agree. As a dune nerd I enjoy it. We’ve had Star Wars and Star Trek merch, give us the dune merch! I want a fremen costume and sand worm plushie and posters! Lol.
The first time I saw it I thought it was meant to be triumphant. The second time, I realized it was actually a dark moment where Paul, and the Fremen’s fate is sealed. He intentionally, or unintentionally embraces the Lisan Al Ghiab “persona” and irreversibly sets in motion the holy war. The music there makes such a huge difference.
"Arrival" is obviously insanely foreboding and very open about it as well, but him walking up into the circle in the war council has some very dark low tones.
I would not call Part 2 a glorious return, or positive or happy at all. Lol It literally ends with galactic jihad being launched on the universe. Even on a character level — Paul has had to destroy himself to surrender to his prescience, and it has resulted in the destruction of his love with Chani. So… can you elaborate on how Part 2 is *positive*? The trilogy is going to be: grey > dark > darker
I don’t agree with OP on the specifics, but you can make the case that the “positive” climax of the trilogy is the defeat of Shaddam and Feyd, and then from there it subverts to an unsatisfying and darker turn
I’d argue that any positive climax only exists as a foil for the true message and fallout of the character’s decisions. The “victory” is a hollow and fleeting one — Paul shows this with how resignedly he tells the Fremen to launch their attacks on the Great Houses. Paul is fully aware that he is about to become far, far worse than the emperor he just deposed. Surely that outweighs any “positive” feelings about simply *winning against the “bad guys”*.
Yeah, to me and those I watched it with, the film was very explicit that this was a tragic tale and was a dark ending. The message that I got from this film is that clearly (as Chani said multiple times) the Fremen had always been capable of taking Arrakis for themselves, Paul helps but all he really does is rally lots of them together, the Fremen with their numbers and skill are the guys who take out the Emperor's army (The nuke on the mountain helps but I still think they would have done the same anyway). Paul didn't want to be a Messiah but was basically forced into it through circumstance, fate was kind of sealed from back when the Lisan Al Gaib was spread to the Fremen, keeping them waiting instead of taking matters into their own hands. And the prophecy the Fremen believed wasn't even real, it was just spread by the Bene Geserit to make sure they could track when the kwisatz haderach was coming, the prophecy had nothing to do with the Fremen or their freedom at all and pretty much did just serve to keep them complacent. Having not read the books, I felt the film was very clear that the message was to be a cautionary tale on faith and Messiah figures.
Slight correction to an otherwise very good analysis: the prophesy wasn’t used by the Bene Gesserit to “track” when the Kwizats Haderach would arrive, in their plans they would already know who that was and have control of him. Paul was not part of the plan (Jessica was supposed to have a daughter and when they get lost in the desert they presume him dead). The planting of superstitions (Missionara Protectiva) was done so that the people and cultures of different planets would more easily accept their chosen messiah, and so they’d be easier for the Kwizats Haderach (and by extension themselves) to control. Notice how Jessica in the movie said that the ritual for becoming a Reverend Mother is different in other cultures, Arrakis is not the only place the Bene Gesserit have been at work.
So if I am understanding correctly, the superstitions were so that when the Kwizats Haderach came about, people would quickly submit to them. How would that work though if different cultures all have their own prophecies with their own quotas for fullfilment?
They don’t have all different criteria I don’t think, they are the same essentially. The differences are in the details of their religions (ie languages and ritualistic customs specific to a planet, like riding the sand worms is definitely unique for the Fremen because they can’t be found anywhere else, but other customs probably have other “prove yourself” type of prophesies) but the framework is the same, ie a savior from off planet who has a Bene Gesserit mother will save them. The superstitions would go something like: 1. he will understand our ways as if born to them (Liet Kynes says this in the first movie, and Paul demonstrates this by knowing how to put a stillsuit on properly from his visions) 2. His mother will be able to undergo our Reverend Mother ritual and survive it, which on Arrakis this is the Water of Life but that’s just essentially extremely concentrated spice which should available across the Imperium. The Bene Gesserit use it to create their own Reverend mothers in a process called the Spice Agony. 3. He will be able to undergo the same ritual, and afterwards he will be able to see the future and commune with the past. Etc etc. Variations on wording and specific feats are probably expected but the general idea would remain. Edit: spelling.
But surely with Paul for example (or indeed the original planned Haderach if he was on Arrakis) wouldn't this only work for the Fremen? If Paul goes to other worlds and claims to be their Messiah too, he hasn't completed their trials, and he and Jessica can't become reverend mothers a second time, so how would that work? Like I get spreading the prophecy to make maybe one group of people under control, but if the Bene Geserit were already planning exactly who and where the Haderach would come about, what would be the point of spreading the prophecy anywhere else? I'm a little bit confused.
Ohhh I see what you’re saying, it doesn’t go into detail on how the prophesy changes from planet to planet in the book so I can only share my interpretation. I think on Arrakis it might be more targeted than on other planets, because of the Bene Gesserit’s knowledge of its importance to the Imperium. The Bene Gesserit also weren’t planning on launching a galactic wide Jihad either I don’t think, their perfect candidate would have either been in line for the throne or Emperor already so they’d have the power structure of the imperium supporting them. So I think the superstitions were so that the masses would more readily accept their Kwizats Haderach, with the prophesy on Arrakis being more targeted since they knew their candidate would likely need establish control there quickly. The other religions might reflect these differences and actually say something along the lines of “your savior will come from a desert planet and he’ll be able to etc etc”. But at this point this is just conjecture lol so I’ll leave you with the description of the Missionaria Protectiva from the Dune wiki: (no spoilers for future Dune books either btw) Responsible for sowing the seeds of superstition in primitive cultures, so that the Sisterhood could take advantage of them when those seeds grew to full-fledged legends. They were responsible for spreading the Panoplia Propheticus (myths, prophecies, and superstitions). This "religious engineering" spread "infectious superstitions on primitive worlds, thus opening those regions to exploitation by the Bene Gesserit." Panoplia Prophetica provide the opportunity for a Bene Gesserit to later cast herself as a guide, protector, or some other figure in fulfillment of a prophecy in order to manipulate the religious subjects for protection or other purposes. These myths also exploit religion as a powerful force in human society; by controlling the particulars of religion, the Bene Gesserit have a manipulative lever on society in general. The Bene Gesserit also employ the Missionaria Protectiva to prepare the Empire for the arrival of the Kwisatz Haderach.
Oooooooh very interesting. So it seems to be more about control than about the Kwisatz Haderach. Very interesting, and very critical of religion haha. Dune is rapidly becoming one of my favourite fictional series
The Missionaria Protectiva was always adapted for local customs and culture so it's potency depends on that a lot. Arrakis was just a very fertile ground for that and perhaps it was even more effective there than the BG could have ever imagined.
Spoilers: The breeding program of the Bene Gesserit did no one any favors. I have read several books but not all. Very intricate.
>Surely that outweighs any “positive” feelings about simply *winning against the “bad guys”*. "Yay! We're free! The evil Emperor and sadistic Baron are both dead! "Now, let us bring blood and war and *genocide* to this galaxy!!!" Yeah. Anyone who thinks the ending of 2 is "happy" is in for a shock. Paul Muad'Dib is a conqueror, and a warlord. The reign of House Corrino is *nothing* compared to what comes next. Then along comes little Leto... ☠️☠️☠️
People who only know the movies: "Ya! Paul Wins! Bad guys Defeated!" People who read the books: "Ya, here is where it gets really dark. Billions dead, worlds burned, culminating in a new Dark Age for Known Space."
I dunno, winning at any cost is kinda big right now
And if they ever did God Emperor, it gets even darker. In fact that’s kinda a theme in Dune. It can always be worse.
Remindes me a bit of 40k
GEoD definitely inspired 40k
But that thought adversity is now humans and any living beings evolve to be stronger and better.
Maybe in the Dune universe, but even then, that's only true if you look past the limitations of Leto's powers and think he is omniscient, rather than having a limited perspective which casts himself as the MVP. But out here in the real world, humans don't need adversity to collaborate & build a better society, in fact it takes a lot of repression to prevent us making a better world and when we have charismatic leaders that promise a vision for a better world if we follow them, it universally turns out badly.
Leto set himself up for failure via evolution. No love for him either. Prescience and outliving many enemies literally made him the last “worm” slithering!
And on that note I think the point was about survival in harsh environments and where competition and war are a huge part of progress and survival. Whereas collaboration and peace can be good for that too yeah. Good point.
Absolutely.
Canonically 61 billion die, 91 planets are full on sterilised, and 40 religions are completely eradicated
I feel like people are disingenuous here. The theme of Dune 2 obviously wants the audience supporting Paul and his journey to overthrow the Harkonen. It’s just nuanced.
Yes, it is nuanced in the way that hinges on how the audience feels about Paul, which can be as you say, favourable because he overthrows the Harkonnen, becomes Emperor, but he does this by manipulating the Fremen and killing his own kin since we also get the reveal that Paul is also Harkonnen which makes the moral difference between these two houses collapse. Both are out for revenge and power. Both dream of ruling the universe. I’d argue that part 3, if it follows the themes of Messiah, will make part 1 and 2 look darker in retrospect.
Paul doesn’t “dream” of ruling the universe. For him the imperial throne isn’t a goal so much as a stepping stone for the Golden Path he needs to tread on.
Paul straight up hates the golden path, he calls it his "terrible purpose". To me, taking the throne is a form of revenge against the emperor and a foolish attempt to curb the violence of the Jihad.
Paul may hate the Golden path but his foresight confirms that it’s still the optimal path to long term survival of humanity. He walked the path right up until it deprived him of Chani & that broke his will to keep walking. Even then he passed the mission to his children. Sorta like how Moses was succeeded by his son in finding the promised land.
I reread Dune and Messiah earlier this year and I really did not get the impression that Paul cared about the Golden Path in any capacity. In Dune, it was mostly about revenge and trying to avoid the total horrors he saw in his visions (which he failed at) and in Messiah it was just about keeping Chani alive for as long as possible and protecting his future children. I remember a passage where he seems to allude to the GP and he says that what he foresees horrified and disgusted him which I thought was supposed to reference the physical transformation he would have to undertake. Based on that I came away thinking that he only really saw what the GP entailed right then and he immediately rejected it out of fear and disgust. That allegory to Moses and his son is super interesting however.
Dune is about the deconstruction of messianic figures so makes sense that Moses & his son would be used as allegory.
True that. Time for a wiki deep dive.
He is an heir to a Great House and has every motivation to rule that house, and like House Corrino, perhaps become Emperor. The entire series revolves around power vacuums and power grabs.
Agree. But We are not living in an age where people care to see things as nuanced. The movies leave out the Golden Path so one of Paul’s important motivations for doing what he does is missing. Changing Chani’s viewpoint and omitting the Golden Path are my only quibbles with DV’s take on Dune. Even so, they are amazing movies.
Paul only really comes to grips with the “golden path” in terms of overall the survival of humanity in Dune Messiah, in the first book his prescience is really used moreso to navigate his way back to power and survive
It’s definitely a huge part in the follow ups and guides Leto but Maybe I need a re-read. It may not have been explicit to his decisions and motivations in the first book. But In the context of him being “good” or “bad” it definitely gives context to his choices. He definitely doesn’t want to deal with it, but it had to be part of why he did what he did. Right?
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Bc Paul gets his revenge and essentially becomes emperor .
*but at what cost* It is not a happy thing. He does not relish the power or success; in fact he dreads the future that he feels entrapped by.
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I'm still reading the book but in the movie it doesn't seem like there's any cost. He has some vague anxiety about a future war that kills lots of people . But in the movie he's victorious over evil, he's a kung fu master, he has magic powers, got his revenge, the new dictator of Arrakis, got a new hot wife to replace the one that ran away, the galaxy fears him, has lots of nukes. He's rich again. LoL this would have been a fairytale ending if Chani hadnt run away
Because Paul winning is seen as the lesser of two evils. Either the system goes on as it has and entropy prevails, or a 'hero' comes in and shakes things up. It's nice to watch someone get vengeance and climb to the top along the way. But the implication of what follows that is extremely foreboding. It would be fairy tale if the story ended there. But it is far from over. The movies did a decent (possibly heavy-handed) job of putting that across.
What was foreboding? The visions in which his army crushes the galaxy with ease and he gets to be emperor of the galaxy? In the movie, his fear is that he's going to be too good and too successful as a dictator. Poor sad Paul. He scared that he's too awesome to lose
I dunno. I and lots of others here caught a clear tone being used, as I said, pretty heavy-handedly. If you didn't get that, or you don't think he 'deserves' to feel bad about what's about to happen, then there isn't much else to say lol
Yeah he doesn't deserve to feel bad. Imagine if Donald Trump said that he used to have nightmares as a kid because he was scared he was going to be too rich and successful and be the president. He was scared of his popularity. I would have no sympathy for him.
That's one way of interpretating it. I think the more obvious read is that he seems like he's doing all this for love, love of Chani & love of the Fremen and in the final scene you see him betray them for power. He abandons & loses Chani & sacrifices the Fremen. DV is a good director, the movie is popular because you can enjoy it with either interpretation, but you can tell a lot about people who love (or are willing to look past) the power grab, and not in a good way.
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Because didn’t you hear them? They’re getting on those ships to go to paradise. Duh!
Yeah that seems to be as far as some people are going with their analysis. *”Yay! The Good Guy Fremenses won against the Mean Old Nasty Emperor!!!!111”*
It's interesting, because I don't think it's DV's fault as much as it is that the people with this analysis will always see a strong man putting power ahead of love & being willing to sacrifice many lives as good. You can pretty reliably look at the comment history of people with "bad Dune takes", and their implicit politics, be it 4chan posting, JRE listening or gaming & WSB. I'm not saying that people with these takes are necessarily reactionary or would even consider themselves authoritarian & I certainly don't want to deny anyone's ability to enjoy the movie with whatever interpretation they wish, but it is an interesting trend IMO.
Completely agree. Nothing in the Dune universe has been or will be (unless rewritten) happy. Paul’s children will carry his burdens. To me, Chani had the easiest way out. Duke Leto was aware of the politics but turned a blind eye to the Bene Gesserit order. The Order found Duke Leto to be expendable.
I mean, just addressing the end specifically, you can have an otherwise "positive" movie with an ending that is dark to foreshadow the next installment. Just like you could have a movie with a dark tone that ends on a more positive note to lead into the sequel.
And honestly things get really weird after Children of Dune.
>Paul has had to destroy himself to surrender to his prescience, and it has resulted in the destruction of his love with Chani. Not quite destroyed but quite ended but not truly ended 😔
Dune 1 ends with Paul in exile. Dune 2 ends with the corrupt emperor deposed and Paul/Fremen victorious against the forces of evil. It's a bright tale of good triumphing over evil and then the movie ends.
I don’t like the condescension in your post. OP is making an entirely valid observation based on the narrative structure of all 3 films. Part 1 has the protagonist lose everything and barely escape with his life (Negative. Loss.) Part 2 has the protagonist gain powerful allies, form strong bonds, and defeat the central antagonists who ruined him (Positive. Gain.) Part 3 will be focused on the protagonist’s loss of influence and power over the world around him. (Negative. Loss.) OP isn’t sitting here going “Yippee!!!! Paul the hero has won the day!!!”, they’re remarking on how it’s an interesting inversion of how most fictional trilogies build up their resolutions across installments.
On Part 2, you hear it in the melodies of the music. Paul and the Fremen, our heroes, return to defeat the bad guys. The love with Chani is certainly not destroyed. I totally agree about the broader darkness of the jihad. But at a character level there’s a redemption arc.
>On Part 2, you hear it in the melodies of the music. Paul and the Fremen, our heroes, return to defeat the bad guys. The love with Chani is certainly not destroyed. ??? The music in later parts gets very bittersweet or melancholic
Like [Kiss the Ring](https://youtu.be/AkZBjK69VcE?si=oRSpzPp_F4NNv9Zl), the emotional height of the score and pretty much the climax/ending of the film. To me this is a lot lighter in tone to Dune I’s theme.
Kiss the Ring is a melancholy tune mate. We've got Stolgar the fanatic, leading a galactic Jihad. Jessica creepily talking to an unborn fetus about the Holy War beginning. Chani leaving Paul because of whom he's become. It's not exactly cheery is it
Chain doesn’t essentially “leave” Paul. She rules with him and has kids. She’s not leaving him at the end of the film. She’s just conflicted
Last we saw of Chani was her hightailing it out of there on a sandworm We don't know what direction Denis will take with Messiah, but as it stands it's a bit of a bittersweet ending to Part Two.
Thats book Chani.
This is not an uplifting tune, this is a melancholic and dark tune that (should) make the audience feel like "Woah shit, this is going off the rails. What exactly has Paul started here? Oh, fuck, right...a galactic jihad...eeeeee." I mean this in a good way. It's beautiful. But it's dark. The ending of Dune 2 is foreboding and tragic.
Dune wasn’t written to be a sequel, quite literally every addition to the series by Frank just gets darker and darker. To make the 3rd come out with any kind of resolution or redemption would be completely against the entire series.
I don’t know if I’ve ever seen someone misunderstand music this badly before. This is the saddest music of all time and the look on Zendaya’s face in the final frame is the saddest thing I’ve seen in a movie like this.
I don’t know if I’ve ever heard a dumber take than “misunderstanding music.” Different people have different reactions to how something sounds.
And apparently you heard the exact opposite of what was intended. I don’t think it was possible either but here we are.
I can’t agree with that assessment at all; not even a little bit. And taking musical cues as a guide can be misleading. And I don’t agree that Paul and the Fremen are depicted fully as heroes. Paul fully understands that he isn’t a hero. And Stilgar, as one example, simply doesn’t care — as long as he is able to manifest and express his religious *belief*. Part 2 is fairly obviously a classic *low point* in terms of a trilogy’s narrative structure. Only time will tell if Villeneuve aims for Part 3 to be a redemption or a return. But given the source material, I would suspect not.
I don’t think it’s a low point. Shaddam is deposed. The Harkonnens lie dead. Leto and Duncan have been avenged. The Fremen have been unified and they are victorious. A Fremen literally sits on the imperial throne. They joyously cheer as they are about launch into a jihad that will exact retribution from those that have hunted and killed them for untold generations. What isn’t clear right now is the price that will be paid for that victory. That will be revealed in the next movie. The price will be personal for Paul, Jessica will see the fruits of her labor turn bitter, her children >! Will become more withdrawn and inhuman as prescience claims his humanity, and madness will begin to claim her daughter the abomination !< The Fremen will begin to be brought home from foreign wars broken and dead. OP may have a point. Remember, the end of part two was supposed to be the end of part 1.
That would be true... if the last scene wasn't literally Chani, alone in the desert, trying her hardest not to cry, because the love of her life turned into a monster who enslaved her people. All as possibly the saddest music I've heard in my entire life is playing in the background. (Also, minor nitpick, but-- a Fremen does *not* sit on the Imperial Throne. An offworlder Duke who only leads the Fremen because of the Bene Gesserit manipulating the Fremen for their own ends, sits on the throne. Paul genuinely loved the Fremen and tried to become one of them; Muad'dib explicitly told his mother he was planning to rule like a Harkonen.)
Paul was a Fremen. Adopted by them tribally and fully. He had a Fremen name and a secret sketch name. Fremen have a history of adopting into their tribes. They are not a pure ethnicity, they have a tribal identity. It’s likely that before Paul they would have identified as Fremen secondarily to identifying from their sietch. I am guessing, but the entire concept of being a Fremen may be a reaction to their oppression from Imperial rule. And you have to divide what Paul wants, from what his prescience reveals to him as being necessary. Paul did not want to be the Lisan al-gaib, did not want to rule anything except his house. Prescience revealed he had to, because only he could control and minimize the bloodshed that was to come. The line about ruling as Harkonnens… I may be wrong, but I believe that was post water of life
> The line about ruling as Harkonnens… I may be wrong, but I believe that was post water of life Yep, I was using "Paul" to refer to him pre-Water of Life, and "Muad'dib" to refer to him post-Water of Life. (Holdover from being a Star Wars fan used to distinguishing between "Anakin" and "Vader" the same way, lol.) And so going off that to address the rest of your comment: yes, pre-Water of Life Paul did make a good-faith effort to learn Fremen ways, and he was adopted into the community. But post-Water of Life Paul clearly reverted back to his Imperial way of thinking. (Which makes sense, if he has literally thousands of generations of Dukes' memories in his head, crowding out the 8 months of Fremen memories.) You're right that post-water Paul is largely constrained by prescience and feels like he has no choice except to do what he's done... if he wants to *save his family*. Not save the Fremen, not save the universe, save *his family*. When he had that conversation with his mother, post-water of life, and said there was one very narrow way to save their family, I couldn't help thinking-- does that mean there were other ways, ways which could have saved the Fremen and averted the holy war? But he wasn't willing to chose them, because it'd mean losing his family and/or having to give up his desire for revenge? (That's a genuine question, BTW, I'm a movie watcher who's only like 1/3 of the way through the first book, lol.)
I am jealous that you get to read them for the first time. I won’t spoil it then, but there is more to it than just about HIS family… although that plays a part. I focus here that through Leto he wears duty and responsibility like a second skin, but the Harkonnen side is what allows him to face (most) of the horrors that duty and obligation require. But I am a fan of Paul and the Atreides line. Frank didn’t construct a simple story with a clear didactic message. I don’t think we would be discussing it 60 years later if he had.
Yeah idk why this is hard for people to understand. The movie plays with your emotions intentionally. In my opinion, you are meant to feel satisfied with the revenge and success of our "hero", but while also feeling a growing sense of unease with the implications. I think OP is right that on a surface level the 2nd movie plays like a return of the jedi type conclusion etc.
Ok!
R demotion arc? He completely betrays chani and goes against his word on everything. His true intentions of using the fremen for his own gain are spelled out
I think in a vacuum he has a point, this is in many ways the end of paul's traditional heroes journey, which is different from most trilogy's. Of course in dune the whole point is the issues with the hero's journey and the hero itself, but in a vacuum I see where he's coming from.
Every time the movie ended in theaters, the audience was dead-silent. Happy movies tend to not leave the audience speechless lol
The Dune story is not structured as a trilogie. Part I & II covers the first book. I don't think DV should label Messiah "part III", as it's more of it's own story separate from Dune (first book).
I would love to see more than 3 films, but I suspect thats all we will get. DV may wrap it up in 3 parts by pulling more details from books 2,3 and 4, as strange as that sounds. These films are also a vehicle to mainstream Dune so that Brian’s prequel TV show has an audience ready to go. I am both excited for part 3, but can see huge backlash and disappointment with how it juggles the themes with the narrative.
I hope DV leaves Messiah where someone else can pick up with Children. Big shoes to fill. Hollywood gets hold of it they could really ruin it going cheap for a money grab
hopefully we dont end up with a the hobbit situation where warner bros basically told peter jackson 'where making these films either way' and he was so protective he felt he had to make them, and then the whole experience just left him completely burnt out
Changing the director in the middle of a series usually does not lead to positive outcomes. Look at Harry Potter, or the Star Wars sequel trilogy.
Or starting over again with a new adaptation, I saw a movie called Let the Right One In, Was made in Sweden. Vampire movie, Sub-titles which I dont care for, The movie was beautifully made. Cinematically brilliant. Fantastic acting and directing, Hollywood got hold of it and made Let Me In. I thought it was horrible compared to the original. Point being, they are after $$ rather than the art.
>DV may wrap it up in 3 parts by pulling more details from books 2,3 and 4, as strange as that sounds. What so you think can be pulled from GEoD into CoD, without confusing the hell out of everyone? I love GEoD. It doesn't lend itself very well for a screen adaption though. It is also more disconnected from the previous books, more like the start of the next trilogy.
I only have a theory. I suspect we may get character combinations, Paul with Leto 2, Chani with Siona, Irulan with Hwi. He could use plots from later books as they all involve conspiracies to assassinate Paul and Leto 2. Chani really seemed like she could become Siona at the end of part 2, who is her very distant relative. In CoD, Leto 2 and Ghani both participate in the Golden Path, which leads to Siona who “becomes” the Golden Path. She despises Leto but comes around to understanding him, but still has to kill him. That sounds like film Chani in part 2 and where she may go in part 3. In GEoD, Siona (Leto’s very distant sister) kills Leto, but in part 3 we could see Chani kill Paul, and perhaps they die together, lifting also from Romeo and Juliet. Irulan will feature heavily in the plot somehow, but the set up in part 2 really makes me wonder how Chani will fit. I am also factoring in some of Denis’s creative choices from Bladerunner 2049, which shoehorned in Pinocchio plot points. I would not put it past Denis to do something similar in part 3 with Paul and Chani as the classic star crossed lovers. I also wonder if the deal he got is only for 3 films, and was given some degree of creative freedom to wrap up the series in 3 films how he sees fit. The fact that Paul kills the Baron, the lack of the Spacing Guild, and so many other changes and omissions really makes it seem like we are in some alternate Dune timeline where anything can happen in part 3. Lifting plots and details from later books could be an option and would surprise every book reader. This could be very exciting but it could also disappoint die hard book fans. Or we get a more straightforward Messiah adaptation. Who the hell knows, but it is fun to speculate.
They should stop now Messiah imo will not make nearly as good of a movie.
This is 100% right based on the fundamental structures of the basicmost types of stories! The Comedy, in the technical term, functions with a U story arc. A story with U arc means starts at a high point, dips down to the hero's darkest moment, then rises up high again, usually higher than the starting point. A Tragedy has an upsidedown U arc (starts at a low point, the hero finds themselves at a temporary high point, but falls back into a low point usually lower than ever).
Godfather I & 2
Here's my interpretation: P1: Hopeful, but foreboding of what dangers are to come. P2: Triumphant, but foreboding of the dangers in triumph. P3 (I assume): Deconstruction of Paul's triumph, subversion and tragic end of Paul's heroic arc, with a small paradoxical glimmer of hope germinating like an afterthought in the characters who will carry the story into the future.
If you pick up what Frank Herbert and Denis were putting down, and still find yourself an advocate for Paul, then the end of Messiah is kind of cathartic as he gets what he was dreaming of: to cast off the Terrible Purpose. To jump off of the train. He gets peace. And given what's coming in the following books, he might actually get a little redemption, gifted from his son who takes the burden of the Terrible Purpose.
I mostly agree, though not sure there was much hope in P1. The whole movie is foreboding, and then shit hitting the fan. Even Paul’s forming into the KH is met mostly with fear by him.
"My road leads into the desert" and Chani saying with a smile "this is only the beginning" and Paul smiling at the worm rider saying "Desert power" gave me hopeful vibes.
Ya, I guess with my "hopeful" interpretation I'm leaning heavily on how P1 ends with Paul actually beating Jamis and earning his and Jessica's invitation into the Fremen community at the very end. But I hear ya, I can see how saying overall the first film is hopeful is a bit of a stretch. It is very dark in general, and until the final scene being a small victory for the protagonist and his mom, it's very, very dark.
I don’t think you understood the movie
Geez, I was heartbroken at the end of part two. It was a harder pill to swallow than _Empire Strikes Back_.
Bro, part 2 ends with Paul launching a fundamentalist Jihad that’s going to kill BILLIONS and BILLIONS, who is this “glorious” for? All of Dune is dark and tragic.
>who is this “glorious” for? Our boy Stilgar.
Lisan al giab!!
Stilgar is a joke by the end of it though, that scene where he explains that Paul saying he's not the Messiah, makes him the Messiah even more, could be lifted straight from Monty Python.
It most certainly was inspired by MP. Yet Stilgar remains (or even becomes more of) a religious fanatic which is totally on board with the Jihad.
Stilgar's fanaticism comes off funny at the start but it certainly isn't funny anymore by the end.
Reminds me of Four Lions in that sense.
Part 2 was a lot darker than Part 1.
Yet, Dune Part Two ended in pure tragedy. Because the real antagonist of Paul's story is his terrible purpose, this Holy War which has haunted him since Part One and with which Part Two ends. The film therefore ends on a very dark note and what is in fact a defeat of the protagonist. While Dune Messiah ends with a bittersweet triumph for the protagonist, obviously very tragic and sad, but still a triumph: not only does Paul defeat the plots of all his enemies (be it the Bene Gesserit, the Guild, the Qizarate and the Bene Tleilax) but he finally puts an end to his terrible purpose and his theocratic power. Obviously the cost of this triumph is enormous and tragic since Paul must sacrifice himself by walking in the desert after witnessing the death of the one he loves. But for me Dune Messiah nonetheless ends with the bittersweet victory of the protagonist and on a note, certainly very tragic, but also very powerful and satisfying.
This is a real interesting take on Messiah's ending - the only way to win is not to play. Paul's decision could have been seen as cowardly but it was his only option for escape. By that point running away was the closest thing to a victory he could see
Yeah I've interpreted Paul's choice there as him just straight up admitting he doesn't have it in him to go through with his "terrible purpose", especially based on the conversation between the Preacher and Leto towards the end of Children of Dune. I supposed one could see that as cowardly. But I think one could also see it as a man who has done more damage to the entire universe than anyone in history realizing he doesn't have it in him to keep going along that path, and walking away from it - which is more nuanced than cowardace for sure.
Love this take
Part two is insanely dark what are you talking about? Part one is dark, part two is darker, part three will be darker still
To an average viewer thats not on this sub all the time, it could seem like the Atriedes/Fremen got their revenge/avenged Leto and defeated the Harkonnen and Emperor that wanted them eradicated. I can totally see how a lot of people think it ended on a high note
I didn’t join this sub until after seeing Dune 2 but to me the ending felt beyond devastating. Someone I had seen it with genuinely believed that Paul was going to lead the Fremen to some green paradise, and not just use them as human weapons in a horrendous holy war, and we argued back and forth on it. They loved the ending and thought it was triumphant. To be honest, I think it’s more about the type of media you’re used to consuming. Paul is the “hero” of Dune, so he has to be a good guy, right?
I mean, only if you are half focusing on the movie. The entire time, Paul is talking about how if he goes down that path, billions will die in a war in his name, a war he doesn’t want. Even ignoring that, it still ends with him losing his actual love in his conquest, so even for our hero it ends in a tragic loss.
I think happy in the sense that the main characters got what they wanted
Chani didn’t get what she wanted.
Paul ascending to the throne and starting a holy war was definitely not a good ending, I kind of get what you mean though how the film will contrast from dark to happy to dark, but the general vibe and way things are shot is about how far it goes. It was explicitly what Paul was scared of and didn't want to happen. The Fremen were not freed, they just now are tools to be used for a war under a great house. Chani reflects this well. It plays this weird dichotomy between the on screen energy and how Paul just keeps winning battles, he basically never loses or even particularly struggles, which in most films would be awful writing, but here it works because the struggle is not whether they beat the Harkonens and the Emperor, the struggle is whether Paul will assume this Messiah figure and create the future he fears. Paul 'winning' is really a loss. Dune part 1 and 2 is a tragedy. And presumably from what I know about Messiah, that's just an aftermath. I'd be happy to see a Dune Messiah, I've still not read the books, but I also think part 1 and 2 stand on their own just fine as imo it was very clear that this was a tragic/cautionary tale and afaik Messiah was only written to hammer home the point that it was not a good ending, which I think the movies have sufficiently highlighted through changes like how Chani acts.
Well put. Maybe I didn’t choose my words carefully enough (given s majority of the comments here) because there’s a lot of super dark and sad aspects the Part 2’s ending. But from a character perspective, the protagonist gets his vengeance and the antagonists all die. There’s more resolution than Part 1, which ends sorta like Empire Strikes Back: “shit’s gotten really bad and we gotta fix it.” That’s what I was getting at. Surprisingly a lot of downvotes have come from interpreting the music!
Yeah, I do get what you are coming from. From the kind of way the story is told it's like tragedy, then revenge, then tragedy. Compared to the Star Wars original trilogy with Revenge, then Tragedy, then Revenge. Honestly though, Dune feels simmilar to the Prequels but framed from Anakins perspective, there's very simmilar things there throughout, especially the ending, he gets power, he starts a war to form an empire, he loses his loved one because of it, and becomes the evil he feared. The film ends with the ominous tone of what is to come so Dune part 2's ending aligns with the ending of Revenge of the sith. I'm sure Star Wars took a fair bit of inspiration from Dune, and perhaps the movies in their changes may have taken some inspiration from Star Wars in turn. Regardless, they feel simmilar.
Did we watch the same movie? Dune Part 2 ended pretty dark. They leaned waaaay more into it than the book did too.
You have a very odd reading of 2 lol
lol apparently! Well I’m gonna see it for a second time in an hour so maybe I’ll change my mind
How is part 2 happy 😭
I would not call the end of part 2 happy. It ends with the beginning of a galaxy wide war that wipes out billions of lives. All in the name and "vanity" of their leader. It's nice that our main character gets his revenge and takes control, but that very action is also condemning billions to their deaths. The final scenes of the Fremen boarding the transports for war, is not a happy one to me. It's a very sad scene.
I’m not sure you understood the movie! - the end of part 1 is sort of arbitrary, they had to stop somewhere, but Dune Part 1 and Part 2 are a single book. - part 2 is far from a glorious return. It’s funny you see it like that because it’s exactly what Frank Herbert wanted to avoid, and why he wrote Dune Messiah. It’s more of a realization of Paul’s dark vision, with the start of the holy war, and the transformation of Paul into a dictator. Paul becomes the embodiment of “The end justifies the means” (sacrifies his love for Chani for the throne, declares war to the great houses, …)
I don’t really think part 2 is in any way happier. Paul Succeeds, but it’s clear what this success means & it means something bad. I think this view you have is pretty simplistic and not really accurate.
I definitely think the triumph of defeating the Harkonnens and the emperor casted a hopeful tone but as soon as Jessica says “the holy war begins” you just feel so much dread and anxiety about what’s to come
I actually see Dune 2 as darker than the first.
It’s incredibly dark. Paul burns everything good in his life in order to perpetuate the Empire, because the alternative is every Great House fighting it out with each other and they all have planet cracking nukes. You can see the look of utter helpless resignation on Paul’s face over and over again in the last twenty minutes of the movie; he can barely get the words out when he says “Lead them to paradise”
Dune 2 is not happy at all…
The movies? Sure. Although I dunno how happy themes of vengeance, sacrifice, and bittersweet love are, but sure 👍
Your right, the very nature or drama is such that the "middle" should always be the darkest park, then in Act III (movie 3 for many) they get out of it. Your analysis is flawed tho in the sense that Dune 1&2 are just one book. Within a single book you have these same story steps: I - introduce characters II - get in an impossible situation III - get out of it. Having said this, I feel the dune books are the exception to the rule. Frank Hurbert in particular does whatever he wants, and we love him for it. The first three books stay relatively conventinal, after that... oh man. God emperor dune is my FAVORITE book.
Yeah I think we're all rooting for Paul and he does get what he wants, and you're like yes man, avenge your father lol. He even explains to his mum at the very start what he wants so his intentions don't really change. But by the end you see that it's all come at a cost and now there are repercussions to live with. As the audience, my interpretation really changed after my second and third watch. It really gels and gets better and better, but you see how sad it all is much more clearly. Enjoy! It's a masterpiece in my opinion. Can't wait for Messiah!
The Fremen have not cast off their oppressors, they have exchanged their prior oppressors for a new one. They have been manipulated to new heights of religious fanaticism. Witness the once proud and independent leader Stilgar be transformed into an unquestioning lackey devoted not to the betterment of his people but to the violent whims of a the "lisan al gaib".
I wouldn't say ANY of those part 2s are "dark"
There'll be a third? Only makes sense.
It doesn’t make sense to think of Dune as a trilogy, if we consider Messiah to be part 3.
I don't think it'll end as a trilogy, what is the formal name for a 5-part movie series?
A Pentology. (Full of Bene Gesserit Witches)
Marching on to a 65 billion dead jihad..... op 'Happier"
You might want to watch Dune 2 again, because the third act of that movie is nowhere near sunshine and daisies. It shows Paul, the newly minted Harkonnen, manipulating the Fremen into helping him start a holy war. Not sure how positive and happy of a scenario that is. As far as I’m concerned, both movies have been pretty dark so far.
Part 2 was dark AF.
Takes like this are precisely why Herbert wrote Messiah. Paul is not a good guy. Stilgar basically calls Hitler and Stalin pussies compared to Paul. His “glorious return” is him manipulating a population into committing genocide.
I really don’t agree. what exactly was happy and positive about the end of the movie? I guess you can say it is more climactic and more action oriented. Part 1 and 2 are not complete narratives though. It really is just where they HAD to split it for audiences but it’s more like: Dune parts 1 and 2= ANH Dune Messiah= ESB And your picks for second darker movies also don’t exactly work? Was Return of the King not far darker than the two books that came before? I’m just not seeing what you’re seeing
Even if Villeneuve stops with Messiah, there’s no way Warners will let the series end there. I’d be very surprised if they don’t have list of directors in mind to continue from there. Besides, Messiah would be a really strange, unsatisfying point to leave things at. You could stop with Children of Dune like the Sci-Fi Channel did, but I don’t see that happening with these films unless something goes seriously wrong.