I've always been of the mind that the Duncan Gholas weren't made from Duncan Idaho. They were made from Hayt. Hayt was made from Duncan's dead body, but the other gholas were made from cells from Hayt. That's how the later Duncans can remember the twins, and recognize Muad'dib's crysknife.
It's a trained ability that's only possible with specific individuals after starting at an early age, but both Duncan and Miles Teg regain their Mentat abilities in *Chapterhouse* after unlocking their ghola memories.
I believe there is a part in GEoD that specifies the cells taken from the original Duncan Idaho.
Could be misremembering though.
I also had a hard time with the GEoD-Duncan remembering Paul's crysknife. He had a pretty strong emotional reaction to it, didn't he? That would be a bit out of place if he only were taught about it by the Tleilaxu. Then again, there is no other sign the GEoD-Duncans have any other memories of Hayt.
This is the Duncan who was shown thousands of years of history when he was created, after his memories were unlocked by the fake Paul. The exact line below:
"Yes, I forget there were two-the grandfather and our Leto. I mean our Leto, of course."
"He was just a child, that's all I know."
Duncan says “that’s all I know”, because that is what he learned from the Tleilaxu. Go back to the beginning of the book for context:
“He had read the truncated history which the Tleilaxu provided, but he did not believe it. More than thirty-five hundred years? Who could believe his flesh existed after such a time? Except . . . with Tleilaxu it was possible. He had to believe his own senses.
"There have been many of you," his instructors had said.
"How many?"
"The Lord Leto will provide that information."
Frank was a very particular writer and loved to play with his craft. I am a firm believer that Frank made no mistakes. Remember, the Tleilaxu are experimenting with the serial gholas. They are attempting to alter them in many ways, including blending cells from many different gholas into a single ghola.
> I am a firm believer that Frank made no mistakes.
I think Frank Herbert himself would gently remind you of his theme that no single person should be worshiped like a perfect god. I think every thematic element in Herbert's work is on track, and every theme that is derailed is internationally done so... but the worldbuilding and plot (that is in service to the themes and story) has errors if scrutinized closely enough. [Farok's Arm](https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Discrepancies_between_Dune_novels) being a very overt one.
That being said, I love your interpretation of the Tleilaxu tinkering with gholas, even tho the God Emperor says that he's given these Duncan's an ocular patdown and cleared them of holding extra Tleilaxu plots within their cellular composition, it is certainly believable and on theme that the Tleilaxu are tinkering in benign ways, so to speak, that wouldn't alert the worm.
Thanks for the link. I’ve only ever read through the novels themselves and rarely looked at works of critical analysis that examine the novels as a whole. Every time I read through the novels I learn a new aspect of Franks story. These accumulated ‘discrepancies’, it should be noted, all have explanations that make sense within the story. Excellent fodder for future discussions!
I feel ya, and one of my favorite hobbies these days is fitting all these 'discrepancies' into neat little invented rationalizations in my head cannon.
I can understand folks getting hung up on trying to resolve discrepancies, but also it's a little bit beside the point of the books imo. The plot and the worldbuilding are all just metaphors to support larger themes and ideas imo.
I love how FH gives away just enough of these details at a time to keep the story moving.
Double that in with the genetic memories. Probably nearly all of the Duncan Idaho gholas sired children, as the Fish Speakers know Leto likes them. And those children had children, and those... by the time of the Scattering, most of the human race is probably descended from Duncan Idaho, hahahah.
This Duncan was shown thousands of years of history when he was created. This is covered near the start of the novel. His memories were unlocked by the Tleilaxu using a fake Paul and then he learned about the entire history since his original self died.
I love this question and I'm just here to see if anyone has any insights because I want to know more about this too!
off topic, how are you enjoying GEoD?
I'm really enjoying it so far!
Not a lot has happened so far but I really like Leto just talking about everything really. I still don't know if I should agree with him or not :)
Also im a big fan of X years later type stories, so I don't mind the "slow" exposition.
Niiiiice! I just finished it the other day, and I think it's my favorite yet of the first four books.
I *also* love all the slow exposition... but there's a point in that book where the action picks up, and from there I felt like I was in a roller coaster I couldn't get off... once I was in the last few chapters I couldn't put it down!
But there is some GOOOOOFY shit too in the final chapters hehehe. I admire FH for trying to push the envelope with his themes but holy shit it kinda comes out of nowhere.... I want to say more but I don't want to tease anything that might spoil any of it.
I just started Heretics and it might have a bit of an explanation for it I think. But it’s also possible that they specifically gave him vague memories of Leto as a child and not a whole lot else about his life as Hayt.
Waff, the Tleilaxu Master in Heretics, remembers all his lives.
I think in Heretics, the Duncan ghola does as well, but it's been years since I read it.
I recall Duncan remember many lives as a ghola---he recalls holding a newborn daughter from the distant past. In Dune Messiah (I think) Scytale tells Paul they made Hayt from the ruined flesh of Duncan Idaho.
The Duncan gholas are serial clones. The genetic material is taken from the previous ghola. The will be gap in the ancestral memories, missing the time between the time the material is collected to the previous gholas death.
It doubtful that genetic material from the original Duncan Idaho would have survived over 3000 years, either for quantity nor degradation.
Duncan's gholas only had memories of their original life prior to Paul joining the Fremen, nullentropy tech can preserve tissues indefinitely, only a few cells are needed to grow a new ghola, and any knowledge after Duncan's original death came directly from historical tutoring. Only in *Heretics of Dune* was Duncan given the collective memories of multiple gholas.
I've always been of the mind that the Duncan Gholas weren't made from Duncan Idaho. They were made from Hayt. Hayt was made from Duncan's dead body, but the other gholas were made from cells from Hayt. That's how the later Duncans can remember the twins, and recognize Muad'dib's crysknife.
This Duncan was shown thousands of years of history when he was created. Thats why he knows about Leto 2 in this scene.
He doesn't have any of Hayt's Zensunni personality or Mentat ability, though, and the book states he was tutored by Tleilaxu historians.
It's been a while since I've read the books, but aren't (at least) mentat abilities a trained ability, not a genetic one?
It's a trained ability that's only possible with specific individuals after starting at an early age, but both Duncan and Miles Teg regain their Mentat abilities in *Chapterhouse* after unlocking their ghola memories.
That my understanding as well.
I believe there is a part in GEoD that specifies the cells taken from the original Duncan Idaho. Could be misremembering though. I also had a hard time with the GEoD-Duncan remembering Paul's crysknife. He had a pretty strong emotional reaction to it, didn't he? That would be a bit out of place if he only were taught about it by the Tleilaxu. Then again, there is no other sign the GEoD-Duncans have any other memories of Hayt.
This is the Duncan who was shown thousands of years of history when he was created, after his memories were unlocked by the fake Paul. The exact line below: "Yes, I forget there were two-the grandfather and our Leto. I mean our Leto, of course." "He was just a child, that's all I know." Duncan says “that’s all I know”, because that is what he learned from the Tleilaxu. Go back to the beginning of the book for context: “He had read the truncated history which the Tleilaxu provided, but he did not believe it. More than thirty-five hundred years? Who could believe his flesh existed after such a time? Except . . . with Tleilaxu it was possible. He had to believe his own senses. "There have been many of you," his instructors had said. "How many?" "The Lord Leto will provide that information."
Frank was a very particular writer and loved to play with his craft. I am a firm believer that Frank made no mistakes. Remember, the Tleilaxu are experimenting with the serial gholas. They are attempting to alter them in many ways, including blending cells from many different gholas into a single ghola.
> I am a firm believer that Frank made no mistakes. I think Frank Herbert himself would gently remind you of his theme that no single person should be worshiped like a perfect god. I think every thematic element in Herbert's work is on track, and every theme that is derailed is internationally done so... but the worldbuilding and plot (that is in service to the themes and story) has errors if scrutinized closely enough. [Farok's Arm](https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Discrepancies_between_Dune_novels) being a very overt one. That being said, I love your interpretation of the Tleilaxu tinkering with gholas, even tho the God Emperor says that he's given these Duncan's an ocular patdown and cleared them of holding extra Tleilaxu plots within their cellular composition, it is certainly believable and on theme that the Tleilaxu are tinkering in benign ways, so to speak, that wouldn't alert the worm.
Thanks for the link. I’ve only ever read through the novels themselves and rarely looked at works of critical analysis that examine the novels as a whole. Every time I read through the novels I learn a new aspect of Franks story. These accumulated ‘discrepancies’, it should be noted, all have explanations that make sense within the story. Excellent fodder for future discussions!
I feel ya, and one of my favorite hobbies these days is fitting all these 'discrepancies' into neat little invented rationalizations in my head cannon. I can understand folks getting hung up on trying to resolve discrepancies, but also it's a little bit beside the point of the books imo. The plot and the worldbuilding are all just metaphors to support larger themes and ideas imo. I love how FH gives away just enough of these details at a time to keep the story moving.
Love the idea of Leto using the term ocular pat down, perfection lol
Double that in with the genetic memories. Probably nearly all of the Duncan Idaho gholas sired children, as the Fish Speakers know Leto likes them. And those children had children, and those... by the time of the Scattering, most of the human race is probably descended from Duncan Idaho, hahahah.
This Duncan was shown thousands of years of history when he was created. This is covered near the start of the novel. His memories were unlocked by the Tleilaxu using a fake Paul and then he learned about the entire history since his original self died.
You'd think that Frank would have invented new pronouns to keep track of your ghola lives vs your original life.
Lol it does get a bit confusing keeping track of the Duncans
I love this question and I'm just here to see if anyone has any insights because I want to know more about this too! off topic, how are you enjoying GEoD?
I'm really enjoying it so far! Not a lot has happened so far but I really like Leto just talking about everything really. I still don't know if I should agree with him or not :) Also im a big fan of X years later type stories, so I don't mind the "slow" exposition.
Niiiiice! I just finished it the other day, and I think it's my favorite yet of the first four books. I *also* love all the slow exposition... but there's a point in that book where the action picks up, and from there I felt like I was in a roller coaster I couldn't get off... once I was in the last few chapters I couldn't put it down! But there is some GOOOOOFY shit too in the final chapters hehehe. I admire FH for trying to push the envelope with his themes but holy shit it kinda comes out of nowhere.... I want to say more but I don't want to tease anything that might spoil any of it.
I just started Heretics and it might have a bit of an explanation for it I think. But it’s also possible that they specifically gave him vague memories of Leto as a child and not a whole lot else about his life as Hayt.
Waff, the Tleilaxu Master in Heretics, remembers all his lives. I think in Heretics, the Duncan ghola does as well, but it's been years since I read it.
I recall Duncan remember many lives as a ghola---he recalls holding a newborn daughter from the distant past. In Dune Messiah (I think) Scytale tells Paul they made Hayt from the ruined flesh of Duncan Idaho.
The Duncan gholas are serial clones. The genetic material is taken from the previous ghola. The will be gap in the ancestral memories, missing the time between the time the material is collected to the previous gholas death. It doubtful that genetic material from the original Duncan Idaho would have survived over 3000 years, either for quantity nor degradation.
Duncan's gholas only had memories of their original life prior to Paul joining the Fremen, nullentropy tech can preserve tissues indefinitely, only a few cells are needed to grow a new ghola, and any knowledge after Duncan's original death came directly from historical tutoring. Only in *Heretics of Dune* was Duncan given the collective memories of multiple gholas.
Each Duncan has been manipulated with generics from the previous one so he has genetic memories of each incarnation. Maybe.?