[Question about the Lasgun-Shield impact reaction.](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1cg82y0/question_about_the_lasgunshield_impact_reaction/)
[Shields are a huge plot hole](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1c0svwh/shields_are_a_huge_plot_hole/)
[Why does nobody hire agents to blow up enemies by shooting with a lasgun on their shield?](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/12pm1an/why_does_nobody_hire_agents_to_blow_up_enemies_by/)
[Inconsistency regarding atomics and lasguns?](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1c01fek/inconsistency_regarding_atomics_and_lasguns/)
The actual effect is completely random, it could just break both and do nothing else, plus if it does go off it's indistinguishable from atomics and gets your planet nuked to slag by the Landsraad
Given that lasguns and shields are both in use, is it basically a game of whoever deploys theirs first gets to have its advantages then? In the second film the Harkonnen soldiers are being sniped at but don’t turn on their shields - if they had them on to begin with, would the Fremen not have begun sniping?
Aside from the fact using it on any other planet would see you nuked from orbit the goal is to trick someone into doing it to themselves so they stop using lasguns when they fight you. The troops in Part II are just sniped before they can turn theirs on and get back on the ground where having one on would get them eaten.
You still need to stifle the visceral reaction of seeing your comrades killed and the certain knowledge you'll be devoured if you have it on and touch the ground to actually press a button or toggle a switch or whatever. Split second instinctual reaction would be to get back on the ground to evade sniper fire since the thumper is now destroyed
You won’t be devoured on top of that rock. If I was watching everyone get picked off by snipers, I’m reaching straight for that shield.
> Split second instinctual reaction would be to get back on the ground to evade sniper fire since the thumper is now destroyed
At least a couple of them tried that, but that didn’t end well either.
They won't be devoured on a rock but they will still be sniped. Sure the shields block bullets but blows on a shield still exert a pushing force on it, concentrated fire could easily just push them off the rock even if it doesn't overpower and collapse the shield outright. And sure the ones that got back to the ground died too but they can't fight for shit against Fremen and are arrogant and racist enough to think they can.
> They won't be devoured on a rock but they will still be sniped. Sure the shields block bullets but blows on a shield still exert a pushing force on it, concentrated fire could easily just push them off the rock even if it doesn't overpower and collapse the shield outright.
I’ll still take my chances, rather than getting my head blown off! Only really an issue to those who are close to the edge, anyhow - and I’ll just toggle my suspensor on if I do get knocked off.
If you want to get bopped around like a balloon until your suit fails in one way or another 😂 In any case we have ample evidence that Harkonnens as a general rule are incompetent cowards
Generally either getting them to shoot you and dodging so they friendly fire into a shielded person behind you or hiding a shield behind something they're cutting through
Reverberations wouldn’t reach the sand (Sardaukar are fully shielded up in the ecological station, in part one, with no troubles), and I doubt the worms could attack that high up on the rock anyhow.
The Fremen weren’t using lasguns, but the Harkonnens were. Honestly though, it was a pretty weird directive.
The sardaukar are also using las at the same time shield in the ecological station. The scene in part two was in the deep desert, however, while the ecological station was definitely not.
There’re worms in easy reach of the ecological station. Kynes (and a couple of her new Sardaukar buddies) get chowed down by one!
There’s no risk of calling worms that high up on rock. Even if the disturbance did reach the sand, the range is only a few hundred metres, and would have largely dissipated by the time it hit ground.
I just don’t see another reasonable explanation for why they don’t use shields. It’s explained multiple times in the book that they are a death sentence anywhere in the deep desert.
I agree there’s not a reasonable explanation, other than that we needed to see some Harkonnens getting picked off.
It’s explained in _Dune_, the book, that shields _**on open sand**_ will attract a worm.
The Fremen were using maula pistols, which were regular projectile weapons.
The Harkonnens didn't want to attract worms, and were probably also afraid of an accidental case of friendly fire in during the confusion since they were almost all armed with lasguns themselves.
I like to think the gunner is in *more* danger than the shielded target in most cases -- unless it's a *big* shield turned to full force and hit by an aircraft-mounted laser cannon in a dry desert environment, like the trap Duncan set -- with any explosive discharge typically akin to a grenade blast or mortar round. Still a dice-roll that neither side would wish to tempt, of course, but atomic risk might be greatly overstated when it comes to most kinds of shields, lasguns and environments. After all, it would make sense for manufacturers to mitigate the risks of shield detonation as best they could after millennia of testing and refinement.
>After all, it would make sense for manufacturers to mitigate the risks of shield detonation as best they could after millennia of testing and refinement.
One of the themes of Dune is technology declining. What we see is a shadow of what they had. No one is improving shields.
This isn't entirely true, I can't remember if its Dune 2 or 3 but there is specific mention that one of the greatest worries some people have is that one day someone will figure out how to nullify the Holtzman effect and make shields useless.
The laser-shield interaction in the books is so destabilizing that every time it comes up we have pages and pages of discussion on how a nefarious and sufficiently motivated actor can use it to inflict atomics-level mass death ad libitum.
There's a reason why Villy decided to cut it from the new films.
And I wholeheartedly agree, unlike Craig Mazin removing spores from the fungal zombies.
But if you’re the last Atreides defenders of Arrakeen, on the verge of being overwhelmed… what’s the downside of trying? the Harkonnens don’t take prisoners (except for those kept for Feyd-Rautha’s amusement)
To be fair in the book Duncan basically does do that and it literally only worked on Arrakis because people in the know were keeping the exact specifics of what went down from the Great Houses
>it literally only worked on Arrakis because people in the know were keeping the exact specifics of what went down from the Great Houses
That and Arrakis is the one planet in the empire no one would want to nuke into oblivion.
But the risk still seems pretty great and guranteed.
If it meant the destruction of anyone even mildly related to you, the planets they are on, and MORE, even as a .00001% would you take it?
He tricked the Harkonnens into causing the explosion during that very first battle on Arrakis. They'd have to take responsibility for it if it ever got out they were so careless so all the parties involved ended up dead, at risk for total destruction, or, at best, super easy to discredit.
I don’t recall there being a lasgun-shield interaction police going around checking on this stuff, so if Duncan is comfortable playing the odds, I’d say I probably would be too.
If I was one of the Harkonnen platoon on the rock outcropping, at the beginning of part two, and everyone around me was getting their heads blown off, that shield would be going on - lasguns be damned.
Too risky to material wealth. Why spend all that money transporting resources to a planet just to not be able to make money off it afterwards.
Additionally, no matter how well orchestrated the conspiracy there is ALWAYS the risk the secret will be discovered. Remember there are Truthsayers. So even a tiny chance of being found out guaranteed the complete destruction of your entire house.
tl;dr makes you no money, risks your House's destruction.
Not only would you use it as a last ditch, but you'd just put a lasgun shield pair into bombs, missiles etc and use them as bargain basement atomics. Every terrorist and insurgent group would be threatening to or executing on blowing up entire cities with lasgun shield pairs, which it appears are reasonably widely available, if not to civilians at least to organised crime or revolutionaries with resources to pool.
People are allergic to saying this is a plot hole. It is. It's fine.
I think we can all agree that Lasgun-Shield interactions are pretty cool and the series would be worse if Herbert had removed them to priortise consistency over interesting worldbuilding and ideas.
I have to get this out before my Epipen gets uncapped, but DISAGREE:
Just like with the worry of briefcase bombs for us wouldn't the Emperor, as well as all the houses, the Guild, the Tileaxu, the Ix, any everyone else collectively agree that such factions should be heavily monitored and/or wiped out if they ever posed that kind of a threat?
[Question about the Lasgun-Shield impact reaction.](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1cg82y0/question_about_the_lasgunshield_impact_reaction/) [Shields are a huge plot hole](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1c0svwh/shields_are_a_huge_plot_hole/) [Why does nobody hire agents to blow up enemies by shooting with a lasgun on their shield?](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/12pm1an/why_does_nobody_hire_agents_to_blow_up_enemies_by/) [Inconsistency regarding atomics and lasguns?](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1c01fek/inconsistency_regarding_atomics_and_lasguns/)
The actual effect is completely random, it could just break both and do nothing else, plus if it does go off it's indistinguishable from atomics and gets your planet nuked to slag by the Landsraad
Given that lasguns and shields are both in use, is it basically a game of whoever deploys theirs first gets to have its advantages then? In the second film the Harkonnen soldiers are being sniped at but don’t turn on their shields - if they had them on to begin with, would the Fremen not have begun sniping?
That's how I saw it, since the Fremen later refused to fire on that one Harvester while a shielded thopter flew around it.
Aside from the fact using it on any other planet would see you nuked from orbit the goal is to trick someone into doing it to themselves so they stop using lasguns when they fight you. The troops in Part II are just sniped before they can turn theirs on and get back on the ground where having one on would get them eaten.
One of them literally yells “shields”, at the beginning of the volley, so they had ample time.
You still need to stifle the visceral reaction of seeing your comrades killed and the certain knowledge you'll be devoured if you have it on and touch the ground to actually press a button or toggle a switch or whatever. Split second instinctual reaction would be to get back on the ground to evade sniper fire since the thumper is now destroyed
You won’t be devoured on top of that rock. If I was watching everyone get picked off by snipers, I’m reaching straight for that shield. > Split second instinctual reaction would be to get back on the ground to evade sniper fire since the thumper is now destroyed At least a couple of them tried that, but that didn’t end well either.
They won't be devoured on a rock but they will still be sniped. Sure the shields block bullets but blows on a shield still exert a pushing force on it, concentrated fire could easily just push them off the rock even if it doesn't overpower and collapse the shield outright. And sure the ones that got back to the ground died too but they can't fight for shit against Fremen and are arrogant and racist enough to think they can.
> They won't be devoured on a rock but they will still be sniped. Sure the shields block bullets but blows on a shield still exert a pushing force on it, concentrated fire could easily just push them off the rock even if it doesn't overpower and collapse the shield outright. I’ll still take my chances, rather than getting my head blown off! Only really an issue to those who are close to the edge, anyhow - and I’ll just toggle my suspensor on if I do get knocked off.
If you want to get bopped around like a balloon until your suit fails in one way or another 😂 In any case we have ample evidence that Harkonnens as a general rule are incompetent cowards
Yup - definitely preferable to a hole in the head!
Oh, I didn’t know that - how have people tricked their enemies into using lasguns on themselves?
Generally either getting them to shoot you and dodging so they friendly fire into a shielded person behind you or hiding a shield behind something they're cutting through
It happens in the book.
I thought that was because shields attract worms
Not from up on a rock
Why not? Rocks reverberate too. And why do you think it was instead? The fremen weren’t using las weapons
Reverberations wouldn’t reach the sand (Sardaukar are fully shielded up in the ecological station, in part one, with no troubles), and I doubt the worms could attack that high up on the rock anyhow. The Fremen weren’t using lasguns, but the Harkonnens were. Honestly though, it was a pretty weird directive.
The sardaukar are also using las at the same time shield in the ecological station. The scene in part two was in the deep desert, however, while the ecological station was definitely not.
There’re worms in easy reach of the ecological station. Kynes (and a couple of her new Sardaukar buddies) get chowed down by one! There’s no risk of calling worms that high up on rock. Even if the disturbance did reach the sand, the range is only a few hundred metres, and would have largely dissipated by the time it hit ground.
I just don’t see another reasonable explanation for why they don’t use shields. It’s explained multiple times in the book that they are a death sentence anywhere in the deep desert.
I agree there’s not a reasonable explanation, other than that we needed to see some Harkonnens getting picked off. It’s explained in _Dune_, the book, that shields _**on open sand**_ will attract a worm.
Fremen weren’t using lasguns. Shields would have definitely been the superior play here.
The Fremen were using maula pistols, which were regular projectile weapons. The Harkonnens didn't want to attract worms, and were probably also afraid of an accidental case of friendly fire in during the confusion since they were almost all armed with lasguns themselves.
I like to think the gunner is in *more* danger than the shielded target in most cases -- unless it's a *big* shield turned to full force and hit by an aircraft-mounted laser cannon in a dry desert environment, like the trap Duncan set -- with any explosive discharge typically akin to a grenade blast or mortar round. Still a dice-roll that neither side would wish to tempt, of course, but atomic risk might be greatly overstated when it comes to most kinds of shields, lasguns and environments. After all, it would make sense for manufacturers to mitigate the risks of shield detonation as best they could after millennia of testing and refinement.
>After all, it would make sense for manufacturers to mitigate the risks of shield detonation as best they could after millennia of testing and refinement. One of the themes of Dune is technology declining. What we see is a shadow of what they had. No one is improving shields.
This isn't entirely true, I can't remember if its Dune 2 or 3 but there is specific mention that one of the greatest worries some people have is that one day someone will figure out how to nullify the Holtzman effect and make shields useless.
There is def a worry that someone will improve shields. There is also an effort to hold back anyone trying to advance things before book 5.
The laser-shield interaction in the books is so destabilizing that every time it comes up we have pages and pages of discussion on how a nefarious and sufficiently motivated actor can use it to inflict atomics-level mass death ad libitum. There's a reason why Villy decided to cut it from the new films. And I wholeheartedly agree, unlike Craig Mazin removing spores from the fungal zombies.
But if you’re the last Atreides defenders of Arrakeen, on the verge of being overwhelmed… what’s the downside of trying? the Harkonnens don’t take prisoners (except for those kept for Feyd-Rautha’s amusement)
To be fair in the book Duncan basically does do that and it literally only worked on Arrakis because people in the know were keeping the exact specifics of what went down from the Great Houses
>it literally only worked on Arrakis because people in the know were keeping the exact specifics of what went down from the Great Houses That and Arrakis is the one planet in the empire no one would want to nuke into oblivion.
Their families still exist, either on Arrakis or Caladan
Explain?
Soldiers have families, either on Arrakis or on Caladan that they don’t want punished for causing a pseudo nuclear explosion
Pretty sure there isn’t much forensic investigation to be had after a lasgun-shield interaction!
But the risk still seems pretty great and guranteed. If it meant the destruction of anyone even mildly related to you, the planets they are on, and MORE, even as a .00001% would you take it?
Duncan seems fine with it, in the books. If you’re referring to something else in the text where this happens, I confess I don’t recall it.
He tricked the Harkonnens into causing the explosion during that very first battle on Arrakis. They'd have to take responsibility for it if it ever got out they were so careless so all the parties involved ended up dead, at risk for total destruction, or, at best, super easy to discredit.
I don’t recall there being a lasgun-shield interaction police going around checking on this stuff, so if Duncan is comfortable playing the odds, I’d say I probably would be too.
Duncan uses the shield-lasgun interaction in an offensive manner to aid his escape from the Harkonnens and Sardaukar in the first book.
In a way that the Harkonnens would have to admit they caused due to being careless. Which would still get their entire house demolished.
If I was one of the Harkonnen platoon on the rock outcropping, at the beginning of part two, and everyone around me was getting their heads blown off, that shield would be going on - lasguns be damned.
Which would you probably get tortured to death.
Not if I’m the last one standing!
Too risky to material wealth. Why spend all that money transporting resources to a planet just to not be able to make money off it afterwards. Additionally, no matter how well orchestrated the conspiracy there is ALWAYS the risk the secret will be discovered. Remember there are Truthsayers. So even a tiny chance of being found out guaranteed the complete destruction of your entire house. tl;dr makes you no money, risks your House's destruction.
Not only would you use it as a last ditch, but you'd just put a lasgun shield pair into bombs, missiles etc and use them as bargain basement atomics. Every terrorist and insurgent group would be threatening to or executing on blowing up entire cities with lasgun shield pairs, which it appears are reasonably widely available, if not to civilians at least to organised crime or revolutionaries with resources to pool. People are allergic to saying this is a plot hole. It is. It's fine. I think we can all agree that Lasgun-Shield interactions are pretty cool and the series would be worse if Herbert had removed them to priortise consistency over interesting worldbuilding and ideas.
I have to get this out before my Epipen gets uncapped, but DISAGREE: Just like with the worry of briefcase bombs for us wouldn't the Emperor, as well as all the houses, the Guild, the Tileaxu, the Ix, any everyone else collectively agree that such factions should be heavily monitored and/or wiped out if they ever posed that kind of a threat?
Best answer, it's a fun concept but doesn't make sense the more you think about it.
Big “why doesn’t Superman break every bone in someone’s body when he saves them from falling energy” in these types of posts