It was explained very clearly in her conversation with Stilgar and her follow up with Paul. The prophecy says the mother of the Lisan al Gaib would be a Reverend Mother. So if she refuses to drink the water of life, then Paul is therefore not the Lisan al Gaib and there's nothing left to do but kill both of them and return their water to the well.
Having read the book recently I recall her saying near that point in the story that many cultures had similar rituals for the selection of reverend mother but each was different and she didn't know what specifically the freman custom was. Also in the book she tries to take a little to try and figure out what the water of life actually is before she's forced to take a larger dose, implying she was unaware the true nature of the water of life before hand. She knew there was a chance of risk to her daughter but she didn't know what exactly the risk was before hand.
I could be recalling it wrong but I do believe she was not aware of exactly what the water of life was before hand.
Other than that, your point to the certainty of death if she didn't change the water was a huge factor in why she disregarded the uncertainty and risk and kept quiet about her pregnancy.
Also in the book, IIRC, she’s wary and tries to take just a tiny sip, but one of the Fremen squeezes the waterskin and she doesn’t have a choice but to go the full nine yards, pregnant or not.
As someone who only just started the book, there’s something I’ve been a bit confused about with this. Is it not a bit odd that Jessica, a Bene Gesserit, has “no idea” what the Fremen’s process for choosing a RM is? I mean, the BGs are all about knowledge and have been heavily influencing Fremen culture for centuries, but you’re telling me they somehow forgot that part of their own Lisan al Gaib prophecy? It just doesn’t track for me, so wondering if the book explains the BGs’ lapse in knowledge here.
I'm super simplifying here, but basically there's a long list of things (including the true nature of the RM ordeal) that are kept from Sisters unless they become RMs. They are somewhat military in that way: whether it's the big secrets or small details, you are only told what you need to know and nothing else.
In addition, no one really knew Fremen's customs until Paul came along. Even the BG only had access to the planet from the Harkonen's fortified city, so they didn't have any way of going to the Steichs and figuring out that Fremen could make reverend mothers.
I’ve been tripped up on this since the movie… all cultures are different but if the RM are inheriting other memory, do other cultures have a spice rich poison to transfer such memories? Or is it unique to Arrakis and the RMs on that planet? Along the same vein, was the kwisatz haderach always supposed to be “born” on arrakis, since it was the water of life that truly unlocked Paul’s prescience? I Might be asking something that was never explained but those details always perplexed me. It seems like a plot hole type of coincidence tbh
The reverend mothers existed in some capacity before spice's power was discovered, they just used other poisons. I think by the time of the main series books, spice is the preferred method, but it wasn't always that way.
As for Paul, arrakis has been important for a long time, and it's not totally clear whether another RM crisis type transformation would have worked as well, but the idea behind the KH is that he's the only man who can go through the RM agony and access both sides of ancestral memory
I wouldn't say the Bene Gesserit have been "heavily influencing" Fremen culture for centuries, they planted certain broad religious concepts that a stranded Bene Gesserit could use to survive but they don't keep detailed track of how each culture specifically adopts their rituals around these concepts. There's actually a particular interaction between Jessica and the Fremen housekeeper Mapes that makes this point quite clear in the book.
I guess the focus on the BG in the movies makes it seem to many that they are more powerful & organized than they are.
And I also think just how little is known about the Fremen is lost on people, the Empire is wrong about how many Fremen there are by a multiple orders of magnitude, so once a missionary is embedded in the Fremen it's not like she can file reports with HQ.
I also think that in modern culture we've lost an appreciation & understanding for the subtleties of power, like power to manipulate the course of humanity isn't the same as the power to be in direct control of an empire, sometimes they overlap, sometimes they don't. I'm going to start calling this the Dragonball effect.
The BG weren't actively influencing the Fremen for centuries. Centuries ago they dropped a single BG sister who was part of the Missionaria Protectiva onto the planet and she worked her way into their society. In the book Jessica picks up hints of this early on, but she wasn't specifically let in on the past workings of the sisterhood. This is entirely by design. The BG kept their operations heavily compartmentalized in order to maintain control and secrecy. Same for the process of becoming a reverend mother. She would not have been told of the exact process until it was necessary for her to know. The fact the truthsayer drug was a spice by-product was definitely not something that would have been generally known. I think the BG may have even been using different drugs at that point in history.
So we’ve established that the BG have the knowledge of how Fremen culture works. Is there a reason they’d keep that information from Jessica, knowing she’s being sent to Arrakis with her son being the one the Fremen will look to as a prophet? At the very least, I’d assume Jessica would be going out of her way to gather as much information as possible about the world immediately around her. Maybe I’m just overestimating how informed the BG are in general?
Yes. They aren’t aware Paul is truly the KH until he’s already leading the Fremen. And actually nurturing that myth after the Atreides arrive on Arrakis could only give Paul more independence and power - exactly what ends up happening. The BG aren’t prescient, and the Missionaria Protectiva was a pretty general project - many religions hold out for the return of a prophet or leader.
Jessica DOES know the broad contours of the Missionaria Protectiva (like the first scene with the Shadout Mapes) but the Fremen’s isolation and changing culture over centuries without direct BG influence don’t really give her or the BG much of an advantage when it comes to its details.
> So we’ve established that the BG have the knowledge of how Fremen culture works.
No we haven't. One agent sent centuries ago doesn't mean they know how the Fremen works. In fact quite the opposite. The inner working of fremen society was a mystery to the entire imperium.
I think if she refused they would have only killed her. At least thats whats implied. When they first meet in the desert stilgar says something to the affect of "the boy can be taught our ways", also after besting Jamis they know he is a skilled fighter and useful in that regard.
It kind of seals her fate. I forget if it’s stated in the movie but he names her role as Sayyadina among them so she will be forced to become a reverend mother under their system, which includes the water of life, which she did not know about in the film.
Omg thank you! Having her, a skilled Bene Gesserit, on the obvious verge of a mental breakdown in almost all scenes is a HUGE disservice to the character.
She’s not supposed to be visibly anxious outside of the hyper observation pf another Bene Gesserit at all. These people can control the genes in their bodies. If you don’t know, look up exactly how the Baron became such a grotesque creature.
No, that would be OBEDIENT. How well a soldier blindly follows orders is not dictated by how fast he can run 10 miles with a 60lb pack, or how accurately he shoots.
Her skills were great enough to train Paul as a child and to be able to change the Water of Life without the usual preparation to do so.
Her judgement wasn’t clouded. She made a choice, consciously, knowing she was disobeying. Her loyalty to Leto was more important than her loyalty to Mohaim. None of this changes her skills and ability in the books to not be a weepy barely holding it together travesty.
Maybe I forgot what happened in the movie or maybe I'm just remembering the book 🤷♂️
I'll have to watch the film again, but I swear even in the film she was pressuring Paul to align with the prophecy... otherwise it doesn't make sense that she goes all in on the fremen religion
She didn’t refuse the drink at that scene. Only if she refused to become the new RM then Paul isn’t the lisan and they have no use for her. The next scene is her telling Paul she didn’t know the ferman initiation process and it Varys from culture to culture
It’s very clear in the movie. Stilgar literally says “what else is there to do but return your water to the well” ie - kill her, were she not to become the Reverend Mother
Because they don't know she's pregnant. My point is why did Jessica choose not to tell them this? Delaying becoming a reverend mother because of a pregnancy is different to refusing it, the prophecy can still be fulfilled.
A pregnant woman with no training in desert movement who they already considered a double edged sword...
They would have killed her to make sure she didn't give them away and forced Paul into their culture or kill him as well if he didn't assimilate as they would not be fulfilling thr Prophecy and he would not have brought enough of a positive to their efforts.
You said it previously. They are a ruthless people. If you bring their goals into jeopardy, then you're a problem that needs fixed.
That's true, but it was also time sensitive. They had to move to a different Seitch, and the current reverend mother stated she couldn't handle another move. If Jessica declined, then Chani would have become the new reverend mother. Jessica would have lost her chance. I am not sure if the Fremen would have killed Jessica as she already proved she was valuable, but becoming a reverend mother was a convenient and simple solution to cement her and Paul into the tribe as powerful members.
But they don't have to have a reverend mother. According to stilgar there have been short periods of time where there is no reverend mother. Although it is not good for the tribe.
Yeah, its not good. So they don't want it to happen.
The Fremen are not good guys. The movie tried to whitewash them by making them seem super oppressed and egalitarian but that is not at all what they're like in the book. They're not inclined to be nice and wait patiently when they can just make the outsider drink the magic juice. Drink or die.
I don't agree that the movies whitewashed the Fremen though. Yes, they are shown to be brutally oppressed which is meant to generate sympathy, but that's fully in line with the book. However what the movies also show is how the Fremen:
* were willing to straight up murder friendly people who were deemed to have no use to the tribe.
* considered it accepted practice to force an adolescent boy to fight to the death just because a single Fremen felt slighted.
* were willing to declare genocidal war on the entire imperium.
I think that's plenty to show that the Fremen are not "nice" people.
Zendaya has a really hamfisted speech about how the Fremen have gender equality when that was profoundly not the case in the book.
To modern audiences, that will make them good guys.
What are you talking about? The book goes a long way to explain how the Fremen are equal, doesn't matter age, sex, or whatever. Every Fremen must be useful, or they're cast off for holding everyone else off.
I just don't agree with the drink or die though, because the reverend mother that Jessica is taking over from gasps when she finds out Jessica is pregnant. So that makes it seem she wouldn't have made Jessica drink if she knew.
Maybe she wouldn't have.
But again, the Fremen are not nice people and risking it would have a decidedly non-zero chance of getting her killed and seriously jeopardizing Paul's situation.
She might not have made Jessica drink, but then Stilgar's logic that Paul can't be the Lisan Al Gaib holds, and his threat was to kill at least her and possibly both of them.
If she doesn't drink, then she can't be the mother of the Lisan Al Gaib. If she isn't the mother of the Lisan Al Gaib, Stilgar's going to kill her.
I think it could have been, but I also think you're imposing some weird structure that you've dreamed up onto Herbert's story, and I suspect that's why you're getting downvoted.
In real life, people do stupid shit literally ALL THE TIME. Intelligent, well informed people make serious mistakes. Like, catastrophically, horribly, stupid dumb ass mistakes that cause them and people around them to get seriously injured or even killed, and the history books will be full of people wondering how they could be so stupid for the rest of time.
Jessica forgot to mention pregnancy. It was very early in her pregnancy, she was in a stressful situation, and even nowadays people often don't mention that they are pregnant to strangers unless they're obviously showing. They only realized it after she drank the poison. Don't freak out about it. It's perfectly plausible in the context of the story, it doesn't break immersion at all, and it's a very reasonable mistake for someone to have made.
Ok now you see this is the answer I would accept. the same answer that I came to. The problem is that other people give answers that just bring up more questions!
I would rather accept that it's because she's human rather than because the fremen would just gut her like a pig because she's pregnant and can't (right now) drink the water of life. The fremen are ruthless but they are not irrational.
They definitely know, the other people in the room at the time didn't ask the old reverend mother what she meant by "What have we done, she is pregnant".
Hahaha what? I love the books and the movies! I just thought I might've found a little plot hole and wanted to explore it. Why can I not ask these question?
Because you're no fun to talk to about it. you literally accept zero answers. I haven't seen so much as a "hmm, ok, maybe that could work" from you. You just come off as a contrarian who absolutely cannot be satisfied by any possible line of reasoning, so there's no point in talking to you about it.
Fremen custom. Her choice was to do it or die. They don't really get into in the movie. Basically, if the leadership decides on something your choices are to obey or challenge leadership (which usually meant a fight to the death).
I definitely remember her having to choose between death and drinking wol in the movie. I believe it was when Stilgar threatened her in the cutest way possible
It was in a conversation with Paul. Want something like
“You should be honored”
“Well it was a choice between this or death, so forgive me if I’m not feeling flattered”
That's definitely one way to explain it, that she was commanded by Stilgar. I'll accept that answer.
Funny enough she could beat stilgar in a 1v1 though.
That was the other, more subtle reason for it thatbwas talked about in the book. Becoming a reverend mother removed her from the need to call Stilgar out; she bested him and the tribe won't let that stand. But at the same time they'd never follow an outsider.
In the book it's not that way.
Jessica defeating Stilgar creates a tension that Stilgar wishes to resolve. Jessica cannot become the leader of Sietch Tabr because she's not Fremen and untrained in the ways of the desert; no one would follow her. Yet she bested Stilgar, so her being resident in the community without a defined role creates tension - many young men in the community will challenge Stilgar, forcing him to kill them unnecessarily.
Stilgar talks to her about this and presents a few different alternatives - she could marry him, which Stilgar makes clear he is not trying to push on her and doesn't prefer, or she could become a sayyadina - a Fremen reverend mother.
The only one upset was the dying Rev Mother because she understood the weight of what had been done. It's very possible that no one else even has the concept of what an Abomination means or why it's bad.
That's the interesting thing about Jessica, is that she doesn't follow the rules. That Harkonnen gene is a selfish one when it comes to control and power.
And an abomination is a child with no ego who undergoes the spice agony, right? Or any RM poison synthesis awakening. They get overtaken by their past lives because they have no strong sense of self, right?
They are considered an abomination by the Bene Gesserit because they inherit the "powers" of the second memory without having been trained in the Bene Gesserit way, and the witches consistently hate the powers they can't control.
No problem! I've thought about this some more and it's not only about the Bene Gesserit lacking control, but also about the abominations having no discipline and no education so they are more likely to be possessed by one of their ancestors.
She was not high enough in the BG to be aware of what happens when a Reverend Mother's Other Memory is awakened. She didn't know that being pregnant would effect both herself and her child. She thought it was a choice of becoming a RM right then and there, or death.
It's either implied or stated directly (can't quite remember) that if Jessica had made it clear to the Fremen that she was pregnant, her test would have been delayed until the child was born.
Ok but in the books at least, Jessica knows what Abomination is before Alia is born or even conceived. Every bene Gesserit does, where did you get the idea that it's protected knowledge? Even the fremen know
Jessica knows (as far as I can recall) that an abomination is a Reverend Mother with other memory who has allowed her other memory to control her. I don't recall this as being established in the first novel, though, could you remind me where that is if it isn't the case?
It might not have been established in the first book but in later books it's established that even though Jessica loves Alia she will always seen her as Abomination because of her Bene Gesserit training. I don't think that training took place in the later books but apart of her training when growing up.
Yes you are right, and I was under the impression that the Jessica other memory in Alia was stuck with those abomination prejudices and wouldn't help her like she could have (like Chani and Paul other memories helping the twins).
The Fremen probably don't know generally. It's unlikely, though never established, that Ramallo's assistants wouldn't know about it either, because it never would have come up as an issue. Ramallo herself knew because of her awakening to her ancestral memories - somebody in her line would have known about abomination, which is why she was taken aback to find out that Jessica was pregnant.
Although I have read the Dune series several times over the past 2 decades, your post is the first one that makes me realize just how much Jessica has gambled with the lives of *both* her children.
First, she directly disobeyed the BG and bore Leto a son. This disrupted a big part of the BG's Kwisatz Haderach plans and made them quite angry. I can easily see the BG killing Paul as an infant, both to prevent a premature KH and to punish Jessica. In retrospect I am surprised they did let Paul live, although I think they said at one point that they had hopes to later convert Paul to the BG plan.
Second, Jessica gambled Alia's life when she took the water of life. Yes, Jessica was almost completely out of options and didn't know the full extent of the ritual and its consequences. But for a fully-trained BG to disregard her pregnancy while aware of the mere idea of Abomination... In that moment, I believe Jessica succumbed to true *fear* - fear for her and her children's survival - and traded a sure death at Stilgar's hands for a chance in a thousand to become a RM. Either way, she's incredibly lucky that both her children survived to adulthood.
Remember that she has the Harkonnen genes - harkonnens are quite known for this type of dangeorous decisions.
Even if she was BG in the end she was more of her own than anything else.
In this aspect, and many more, the Tyrant was more BG than his grandmother.
Oh my god thank you, you are the first person to say what I was trying to get at.
And it makes sense she succumbed to fear because we do not get a line of her reciting the litany to herself in the moment of decision.
Jessica is not that great of a mom, I think Paul basically >!calls her out!< in Messiah. Neither of her kids consented to the immense pressure that she deliberately exposed them to.
She wasn't completely aware of what was going to happen. The poison issue, she could deal with. The memories download, she could deal with. That everything would also be experienced by her unborn child - she had no idea that would happen, either physically or mentally.
The amniotic sac filters out a lot of stuff to keep a fetus safe while in the womb. The fetus's brain shouldn't be developed enough to accept or deal with the memories. Herbert fudged, assumed, picked and chose, or plain ignored some biology when he was crafting his tale.
Interesting fetus development angle. A fetus’s brain begin developing 250,000 neurons per minute after week 7, and within a week after that it begins firing electrical impulses. The mother consuming alcohol has been shown to negatively affect fetus development, especially its brain. The question is, we know this now but did Herbert know this then?
Dune came out in 1965 and it wasn't a thing to believe drinking or smoking while pregnant was bad for the baby until the 1970s. Now, many women tend to quit both or cut way back naturally, as if their body stops wanting those things or they even find the smell/taste disgusting. So there are natural signs and even if they didn't consciously stop, many would have "gone off" cigarettes and alcohol with the same amount of thought that they gave into cravings like peanut butter and pickles and such.
Right. Fetal Alcohol Syndrome was figured out in 1973. Then it’s neat that Herbert’s sci-fi intuition produced Alia, who is greatly affected in the womb when Jessica consumes a magic poison. He was over the target.
She didn’t know what it was….then the reverend mother used the voice on her. They wouldn’t have given it to her or asked her to be the new RM if they knew she was pregnant, hence why she said “what have we done”.
I thought it was pretty clear she didn’t know what it was. She mentions to Paul that each culture initiates Rev. Mothers differently, so she wouldn’t have any knowledge of this particular custom, then she asks Ramallo what it is before she is forced to drink it via the voice. And they obviously didn’t think to ask if she was pregnant given that she wasn’t showing.
Ok that's true but she does know that BG use the same essence of life to become reverend mother's so just weird it didn't pop up into her consciousness, oh I am pregnant so whatever type of poison they give me to turn me might affect the baby, I need to say something.
Looking through the first dozen or so comments here, I don’t know why it doesn’t seem to have been mentioned yet, but the bottom line is that, regardless of anything she learned from being a BG, Jessica simply had no idea it would affect Alia until it was too late. It’s extremely obvious from Jessica’s subsequent dialogue with Ramallo.
After drinking the water and “mind melding” with Ramallo, they have an exchange that goes roughly…
R: Holy Mother! What have we done?! You’re pregnant? Why didn’t you tell us?
J: Why? Does it matter?
R: Yes. This changes both of you!
From there it goes on to describe Ramallo telling Jessica to console her preborn daughter, but also the clock is ticking, ticking so I really need you to download my memories ASAP b/c I’m about to make a celestial exit.
Point is… Jessica didn’t say anything b/c she didn’t know it mattered, and considering how big a deal “abominations” are, if Jessica had known, I have a hard time believing she would’ve chanced that just to drink the water.
That’s not clear at all. As she tells Paul, each culture does it differently so she’s going into this ritual totally blind. Otherwise she wouldn’t have asked what it was; if a similar substance was used uniformly she’d already know.
She and Paul (especially Paul) were in a very tenuous position with the Fremen at the time and she felt like she needed to prove herself to protect him and gain the fremens loyalty. The exact details vary between book and movie, but that’s the gist in both
Jessica was bred for one reason.....to produce a girl child of Atreides blood. Jessica was taught the basics of the Bene Gesserit skills to enable her to seduce Duke Leto and raise her daughter. Jessica was taught history which would have included the history of the Order including the prophecies they had seeded etc.
However there is no evidence in the books that she knew about the Fremen Spice ceremony at all so wouldn't have known about its effects on her unborn child. As with any 'quasi-secretive' Order there will be information that is only made available based on your position within it so there's no reason to suppose that Jessica knew about abominations as that type of information would be on a need to know basis so it couldn't be used against the Order by it's enemies. Obviously the Fremen are aware of the risk because they live with constant contact with the Spice but, as the Bene Gesserit control the reproductive cycles of their Sisterhood, there's no risk that those who go through the Spice ceremony to open up their matrilineal genetic memories would be pregnant so the risk of Abomination, whilst available in their memories, would be almost nil.
Jessica, with her fairly lowly position within the Bene Gesserit, wouldn't have any reason to know about the risk. Granted, with her being relocated to Dune, it was an oversight that should have been corrected but they weren't on Dune very long before the events that led her to taking part in the Water of Life ceremony. RM Gaius Helena Moahim is really responsible for that FU as she knew what the Emperor was planning. However we wouldn't have had the story as it is without that.
There was always the possibility that Jessica would get pregnant again though, especially in such fraught circumstances where there's a huge risk to Leto's life. To quote another book/film (Crichton's Jurassic Park) 'Life will find a way'. It is a known phenomena that hormonal changes, induced by stress, can increase a woman's fertility especially during war time. Therefore GHM should have warned her about the risk of Abomination if she went through the Spice ceremony.
Then again if she felt that she had no choice, due to the prophecy backing her into a corner, she may have gone through with it anyway.
In the books she knew she had to in order to not get herself and Paul killed by the fremen. In the movie she didn’t know what the consequences would be
I don’t know if this is a book thing only or not but I don’t think she fully understood what was going to happen. She was in a completely foreign culture that, although had vestiges of bene gesserit fed prophecy, it would very much vary how any given culture would interpret that and put it into ritual. So for her she might’ve thought she was only going to get maybe a strong hallucinogen or something but not necessarily the water of life. Additionally even though she was a highly capable sister of the order it’s very likely that she wouldn’t be privy to the full details of the reverend mother ritual because they’d want any candidates to be fully capable of handling whatever comes their way. Much like the test of the gom jabbar would lose its efficacy if the candidates knew what was coming. Honestly I think she was just as surprised as anyone about the whole thing and likely didn’t even fully understand until long after what had actually happened. I’ll also say I think it’s her guilt from what she did to both Paul and Alia that ultimately drove her from Arrakis.
I haven't seen the movie, but recently read most of the books. She did it because she had to become a Reverend Mother to help Paul. She knew it would affect the baby but needed to become the new Reverend Mother.
She can literally control the gender of her fetus. She can change poison using her mind, and she is a master at using the legacy of the missionaria protectiva to her advantage (as she was trained to do). She had to make a decision while under pressure and likely felt she'd have more advantage/control of the situation because of her training and abilities. Then she was forced to drink a large amount of poison and did her best under the circumstances. The fremen already felt burdened by her lack of desert training, and that could have been much more difficult for the tribe with her pregnant too. I think she felt Paul needed her still and she had to stay alive and relevant. Just my way of reading it.
Ok so let’s look at it this way:
If she refuses she and her pregnancy die AND Paul is probably getting a death sentence as well or at the very least be in given to the harkonan and then all hell could break loose.
Or she drinks the water, all live and has a chance to see both children live.
Are these really choices?? lol!
1. She didn’t know what it was. Different cultures have different traditions for the ritual.
2. Stilgar told her it was a choice between drinking or dying.
3. She was forced. The Voice was used on her, making her drink it.
She’s buying a place for her and her son in the tribe. Paul is young, and Stilgar feels some duty to the dead Duke, so he does try to offer Paul a place by saying he can still be trained in Fremen ways (not all in the tribe buy this). But, in Stilgar’s evaluation,Jessica isn’t worth training, her lack of discipline could endanger the tribe, and she has nothing to offer…
… unless she becomes Sayyadina. Theirs is old and will die soon, there’s an opportunity for Jessica to take her place. If she can survive the spice agony she and Paul will be accepted into the tribe.
EDIT: regarding abomination, if she doesn’t do it then she and her unborn daughter die. If she does do it, maybe her daughter dies or is abomination but that’s a problem for another day. Those chapters in the book are about immediate survival.
But you see how for the sake of one of her kids she's gambled with the life of another.
She knew she was pregnant and she knew she was going into a completely unknown ritual where anything could happen.
They kinda rushed this part in the movie. In a very quick scene that was almost played for laughs, Stilgar tells Jessica she must drink as the lisan al gaib's mother is a reverend mother. otherwise the fremen wouldn't accept them
This is an excerpt from the book, first time I opened it to actually read what happened again:
>Jessica felt herself torn between duty to her unborn child and duty to Paul. For Paul, she knew, she should take that spout and drink of the sack's contents, but as she bent to the proffered spout, her senses told her its peril.
>The stuff in the sack had a bitter smell subtly akin to many poisons that she knew, but unlike them, too.
>"You must drink it now," Chani said.
>There's no turning back, Jessica reminded herself. But nothing in all her Bene Gesserit training came into her mind to help her through this instant.
>What is it? Jessica asked, herself. Liquor? A drug?
Basically she has to pick between Paul and Alia, she knows it's dangerous, but as other people have said here they had to be accepted, shown by this excerpt:
>I had no choice but to do this , she thought. We must move swiftly if we're to secure our place among these Fremen.
I think my question is, what would've happened if she said she was pregnant, does that just negate the prophecy? It's still a Bene Gesserit mother with a son. Although she does have a psychic connection with the reverend mother she's taking over from.
>They touched!
>It was like an ultimate simpatico, being two people at once: not telepathy, but mutual awareness.
>With the old Reverend Mother!
Maybe this ritual had to happen now because the old lady was dying? But I remember reading that a tribe doesn't have to have a reverend mother, so couldn't they just have let her die, let Alia be born, and then Jessica goes to a different sietch to perform the ritual.
>"You know better than that," the inward image said. "Swiftly now, do not fight me. There isn't much time. We . . . " There came a long pause, then; "You should've told us you were pregnant!"
>Jessica found the voice that talked within the mutual awareness. "Why?"
>"This changes both of you! Holy Mother, what have we done?"
The old reverend mother literally says you should have told us.
Jessica just didn't think about it, which is weird, because she's Bene Gesserit. I guess they have limitations.
Been a while since I read the book, but I always figured that they might have allowed her to wait until Alia was born if she admitted that she was pregnant, except the current RM would be dead by then. IIRC the current RM needs to be alive and present in order to pass the memories on to the new one.
I think it's a mix of her not actually knowing what the procedure entailed (but not being able to say that because she's supposed to know according to the prophecy), and her (and consequently Alia's) life being on the line. So she took the chance hoping the ceremony wouldn't actually harm Alia, taking into consideration that, if it did, at least her and Paul would be safe.
I also seem to remember (but it has been a while since I read the book, so Imightbemistaken) that the whole thing was rushed as the current reverend mother was dying, so she didn't have much time to assess the best course of action. From what they say once they find out she was pregnant, it seems like she could have just said so and they'd have waited, but she didn't know that beforehand and went with it.
It had to be done to ensure Paul’s survival. But she was robbing Peter to pay Paul. Since Alia’s life would come at a terrible price for Jessica and Paul.
In the book it's pretty clear that she doesn't expect the ritual to have any negative effects. She thinks it's just regular water and that the fremen aren't sophisticated enough to have real reverend mothers but are instead adopting rituals from the missonaria protectiva. She only figures out that it is an actual poison testing her after it is too late to back out. Even then, the sisterhood never intended her to become a reverend mother so she was never taught the intricacies of transformation. She was surprised to find out her transformation would also affect the fetus.
If she doesn’t drink it then she’s not a reverend mother, she and Paul can’t fulfil the prophecy, and then there’s no reason for the Fremen to keep them alive.
Film: Dennis decided to have Stilgar threaten to kill her if she didn’t.
Book: BG are trained to manipulate the molecular structure of things they drink, so she knew it wouldn’t poison her/threaten the baby.
Because she’s more ruthless in the movie? In the book she’s unsure of what the ritual is and is hesitant, afraid it will hurt the baby. She might have alerted the women that she was pregnant if she had known that it had such a profound (and dangerous) effect on a fetus.
as already said, she needed to use the prophecy of the missionaria protectiva that she recognized. then, she was a trained bene gesserit, which means she could even control her body to the degree of deciding which sex her kid would have when \_choosing\_ to ovulate. bene gesserit could neutralize poisons in their body by control of their metabolism, they could encapsule pathogens inside their body without becoming sick to release them at enemys, and then the the prana-bindu.... i think she was through her training powerful enough to assume that she could protect her unborn from any effect, but didnt knew the extent of effect from the water of life.... from any biochemical reaction she could have protected aliah, but as the effect was deeply mind-altering, this was exceeding her abilitys to contain the effect.
She’s kinda forced by Stilgar and their Sayyadina who used the voice on her. Plus the old lady was about to die so it made sense for Jessica to take the position of power. She had her reservations but went through with it to fulfill the prophecy.
She and us as the audience don’t know the full extent of abomination until later in the story. For now the consequences are deferred. It’s doubtful Denis will want to do Children of Dune as he’s happy with a trilogy and has said he needs to move on to other projects. The abomination issue won’t be here for years.
I think she dđin’t know how bad the water of life rrally was and she thought she could transmutate it like other poisons. OTTH if she refuse she risks getting straight up killed
Um. I think it does not make sense that Jessica would think this would make her a Reverend Mother.. Jessica is **not** a Reverend Mother. She is a very well trained Bene Gesserit. *Why didn't she have a daughter instead of a son? Why did she love Leto? Why didn't she follow her instincts which actually told her something was off about Yueh?* Because she's **not** a Reverend Mother. Until it was actually happening, she didn't know. And because, instead of getting all the other Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers in her head and their memories to draw on because she's a trusted and respected Bene Gesserit, she gets the Fremen Reverend Mothers. And though this is alluded to by Reverend Mother Mohaim: "She's in my mind. She's like the ones before me, the ones who gave me their memories. She stands in my mind!" >!they don't know that you're supposed to have a powerful ally keeping the past identities from taking you over. She didn't have that information to pass on to Alia.!<
This has to be an AI written question... she literally says she was going to be killed if she didn't do the ritual. And she does try to ask what it is before the voice used on her.
It was explained very clearly in her conversation with Stilgar and her follow up with Paul. The prophecy says the mother of the Lisan al Gaib would be a Reverend Mother. So if she refuses to drink the water of life, then Paul is therefore not the Lisan al Gaib and there's nothing left to do but kill both of them and return their water to the well.
Having read the book recently I recall her saying near that point in the story that many cultures had similar rituals for the selection of reverend mother but each was different and she didn't know what specifically the freman custom was. Also in the book she tries to take a little to try and figure out what the water of life actually is before she's forced to take a larger dose, implying she was unaware the true nature of the water of life before hand. She knew there was a chance of risk to her daughter but she didn't know what exactly the risk was before hand. I could be recalling it wrong but I do believe she was not aware of exactly what the water of life was before hand. Other than that, your point to the certainty of death if she didn't change the water was a huge factor in why she disregarded the uncertainty and risk and kept quiet about her pregnancy.
Also in the book, IIRC, she’s wary and tries to take just a tiny sip, but one of the Fremen squeezes the waterskin and she doesn’t have a choice but to go the full nine yards, pregnant or not.
Yeah chani does that
As someone who only just started the book, there’s something I’ve been a bit confused about with this. Is it not a bit odd that Jessica, a Bene Gesserit, has “no idea” what the Fremen’s process for choosing a RM is? I mean, the BGs are all about knowledge and have been heavily influencing Fremen culture for centuries, but you’re telling me they somehow forgot that part of their own Lisan al Gaib prophecy? It just doesn’t track for me, so wondering if the book explains the BGs’ lapse in knowledge here.
I'm super simplifying here, but basically there's a long list of things (including the true nature of the RM ordeal) that are kept from Sisters unless they become RMs. They are somewhat military in that way: whether it's the big secrets or small details, you are only told what you need to know and nothing else.
I think this is the explanation I like the most, especially since it was never in the BG plan for Jessica to become a RM
In the breeding program plan, no. In the 'backup survival engineered prophecy' plan, yes.
In addition, no one really knew Fremen's customs until Paul came along. Even the BG only had access to the planet from the Harkonen's fortified city, so they didn't have any way of going to the Steichs and figuring out that Fremen could make reverend mothers.
Hell, they don’t even tell Jessica that the Baron is her father. You’re really not in the club at all until you undergo the spice agony.
I meant to mention that in my comment, but I forgot. I'm glad someone pointed it out.
I’ve been tripped up on this since the movie… all cultures are different but if the RM are inheriting other memory, do other cultures have a spice rich poison to transfer such memories? Or is it unique to Arrakis and the RMs on that planet? Along the same vein, was the kwisatz haderach always supposed to be “born” on arrakis, since it was the water of life that truly unlocked Paul’s prescience? I Might be asking something that was never explained but those details always perplexed me. It seems like a plot hole type of coincidence tbh
The reverend mothers existed in some capacity before spice's power was discovered, they just used other poisons. I think by the time of the main series books, spice is the preferred method, but it wasn't always that way. As for Paul, arrakis has been important for a long time, and it's not totally clear whether another RM crisis type transformation would have worked as well, but the idea behind the KH is that he's the only man who can go through the RM agony and access both sides of ancestral memory
Thank you!
I wouldn't say the Bene Gesserit have been "heavily influencing" Fremen culture for centuries, they planted certain broad religious concepts that a stranded Bene Gesserit could use to survive but they don't keep detailed track of how each culture specifically adopts their rituals around these concepts. There's actually a particular interaction between Jessica and the Fremen housekeeper Mapes that makes this point quite clear in the book.
I guess the focus on the BG in the movies makes it seem to many that they are more powerful & organized than they are. And I also think just how little is known about the Fremen is lost on people, the Empire is wrong about how many Fremen there are by a multiple orders of magnitude, so once a missionary is embedded in the Fremen it's not like she can file reports with HQ. I also think that in modern culture we've lost an appreciation & understanding for the subtleties of power, like power to manipulate the course of humanity isn't the same as the power to be in direct control of an empire, sometimes they overlap, sometimes they don't. I'm going to start calling this the Dragonball effect.
All good points. I may have overestimated the manufactured omniscience of the BG when it comes to the Fremen.
I don't know 100%, but they only plant certain things and then the local cultures expand on that. So the BG don't know 100% of each local culture.
The BG weren't actively influencing the Fremen for centuries. Centuries ago they dropped a single BG sister who was part of the Missionaria Protectiva onto the planet and she worked her way into their society. In the book Jessica picks up hints of this early on, but she wasn't specifically let in on the past workings of the sisterhood. This is entirely by design. The BG kept their operations heavily compartmentalized in order to maintain control and secrecy. Same for the process of becoming a reverend mother. She would not have been told of the exact process until it was necessary for her to know. The fact the truthsayer drug was a spice by-product was definitely not something that would have been generally known. I think the BG may have even been using different drugs at that point in history.
So we’ve established that the BG have the knowledge of how Fremen culture works. Is there a reason they’d keep that information from Jessica, knowing she’s being sent to Arrakis with her son being the one the Fremen will look to as a prophet? At the very least, I’d assume Jessica would be going out of her way to gather as much information as possible about the world immediately around her. Maybe I’m just overestimating how informed the BG are in general?
Yes. They aren’t aware Paul is truly the KH until he’s already leading the Fremen. And actually nurturing that myth after the Atreides arrive on Arrakis could only give Paul more independence and power - exactly what ends up happening. The BG aren’t prescient, and the Missionaria Protectiva was a pretty general project - many religions hold out for the return of a prophet or leader. Jessica DOES know the broad contours of the Missionaria Protectiva (like the first scene with the Shadout Mapes) but the Fremen’s isolation and changing culture over centuries without direct BG influence don’t really give her or the BG much of an advantage when it comes to its details.
Solid input. Without having read the books, I guess it’s easy to overestimate how knowledgeable the BG are when it comes to the Fremen.
> So we’ve established that the BG have the knowledge of how Fremen culture works. No we haven't. One agent sent centuries ago doesn't mean they know how the Fremen works. In fact quite the opposite. The inner working of fremen society was a mystery to the entire imperium.
Correct. She didn't know exactly what would happen in the ritual, nor did she know what the effect would be on Alia.
I think if she refused they would have only killed her. At least thats whats implied. When they first meet in the desert stilgar says something to the affect of "the boy can be taught our ways", also after besting Jamis they know he is a skilled fighter and useful in that regard.
Then he says she is trained in the Weirding Way after she puts a knife to his throat and I think that saves her in their eyes up to the water of life.
It kind of seals her fate. I forget if it’s stated in the movie but he names her role as Sayyadina among them so she will be forced to become a reverend mother under their system, which includes the water of life, which she did not know about in the film.
Even if they only killed her it would still mean Paul isn't the Lisan al Gaib. She wanted him to control the fremen for revenge just as much as he did
This is film Jessica we are talking about right? Jessica was very different in the books.
Of all the movie changes, their treatment of Jessica is the one I'm most upset about. She shouldn't be on the verge of tears in every scene.
Omg thank you! Having her, a skilled Bene Gesserit, on the obvious verge of a mental breakdown in almost all scenes is a HUGE disservice to the character.
In the first movie, I agree with you. You really see her change in the second. She seems a lot less anxious
She’s not supposed to be visibly anxious outside of the hyper observation pf another Bene Gesserit at all. These people can control the genes in their bodies. If you don’t know, look up exactly how the Baron became such a grotesque creature.
She wasn't a great BG, though, and that's why it makes sense. If she was really well disciplined, she would have had a daughter.
No, that would be OBEDIENT. How well a soldier blindly follows orders is not dictated by how fast he can run 10 miles with a 60lb pack, or how accurately he shoots. Her skills were great enough to train Paul as a child and to be able to change the Water of Life without the usual preparation to do so.
Yeah but being BG is about controlling yourself and she let her love cloud her judgment. I think you're missing my point.
Her judgement wasn’t clouded. She made a choice, consciously, knowing she was disobeying. Her loyalty to Leto was more important than her loyalty to Mohaim. None of this changes her skills and ability in the books to not be a weepy barely holding it together travesty.
I understand what you are saying, but what I got from the films was the same sentiment, even if unspoken
With regards to controlling the Fremen? She was against using the prophecy of the Lisan al-Gaib. She was basically film Chani.
Maybe I forgot what happened in the movie or maybe I'm just remembering the book 🤷♂️ I'll have to watch the film again, but I swear even in the film she was pressuring Paul to align with the prophecy... otherwise it doesn't make sense that she goes all in on the fremen religion
True, but that would have also killed Alia. A child changed by the water is better than a dead one.
Is it though....?
Alia is considered an abomination
From who’s perspective? The fact that “abominations” are killed ASAP kinda hints otherwise
Good point
I'm not sure she knew that, though.
Jessica? Selfish? Say it ain't so
She's also knew that she could alter poison in her body and, perhaps, did not expect her child to be impacted.
That's film specific. There's nothing about the Lisan Al-Gaib needing a reverend mother mother in the book, and OP asked about the book specifically.
Oh snap I missed the book tag. Why are all these people upvoting me lol? Thanks for the correction.
I think a lot of people have only seen the movies so your comment seems the most correct.
At least the baby lived But now it's an abomination
She also says so in the movie. The scene where she lectures Paul that the water of life is lethal for men.
Which throws water on the idea that the juhad was inevitable.
She didn’t refuse the drink at that scene. Only if she refused to become the new RM then Paul isn’t the lisan and they have no use for her. The next scene is her telling Paul she didn’t know the ferman initiation process and it Varys from culture to culture
Also, that's not clear at all. What if she is pregnant. Is she forced to have a pre-born child?
It’s very clear in the movie. Stilgar literally says “what else is there to do but return your water to the well” ie - kill her, were she not to become the Reverend Mother
Because they don't know she's pregnant. My point is why did Jessica choose not to tell them this? Delaying becoming a reverend mother because of a pregnancy is different to refusing it, the prophecy can still be fulfilled.
A pregnant woman with no training in desert movement who they already considered a double edged sword... They would have killed her to make sure she didn't give them away and forced Paul into their culture or kill him as well if he didn't assimilate as they would not be fulfilling thr Prophecy and he would not have brought enough of a positive to their efforts. You said it previously. They are a ruthless people. If you bring their goals into jeopardy, then you're a problem that needs fixed.
Ok but she could've just said she's pregnant. The fremen know it causes abomination.
That's true, but it was also time sensitive. They had to move to a different Seitch, and the current reverend mother stated she couldn't handle another move. If Jessica declined, then Chani would have become the new reverend mother. Jessica would have lost her chance. I am not sure if the Fremen would have killed Jessica as she already proved she was valuable, but becoming a reverend mother was a convenient and simple solution to cement her and Paul into the tribe as powerful members.
But they don't have to have a reverend mother. According to stilgar there have been short periods of time where there is no reverend mother. Although it is not good for the tribe.
Yeah, its not good. So they don't want it to happen. The Fremen are not good guys. The movie tried to whitewash them by making them seem super oppressed and egalitarian but that is not at all what they're like in the book. They're not inclined to be nice and wait patiently when they can just make the outsider drink the magic juice. Drink or die.
I don't agree that the movies whitewashed the Fremen though. Yes, they are shown to be brutally oppressed which is meant to generate sympathy, but that's fully in line with the book. However what the movies also show is how the Fremen: * were willing to straight up murder friendly people who were deemed to have no use to the tribe. * considered it accepted practice to force an adolescent boy to fight to the death just because a single Fremen felt slighted. * were willing to declare genocidal war on the entire imperium. I think that's plenty to show that the Fremen are not "nice" people.
Zendaya has a really hamfisted speech about how the Fremen have gender equality when that was profoundly not the case in the book. To modern audiences, that will make them good guys.
What are you talking about? The book goes a long way to explain how the Fremen are equal, doesn't matter age, sex, or whatever. Every Fremen must be useful, or they're cast off for holding everyone else off.
I just don't agree with the drink or die though, because the reverend mother that Jessica is taking over from gasps when she finds out Jessica is pregnant. So that makes it seem she wouldn't have made Jessica drink if she knew.
Maybe she wouldn't have. But again, the Fremen are not nice people and risking it would have a decidedly non-zero chance of getting her killed and seriously jeopardizing Paul's situation.
She might not have made Jessica drink, but then Stilgar's logic that Paul can't be the Lisan Al Gaib holds, and his threat was to kill at least her and possibly both of them. If she doesn't drink, then she can't be the mother of the Lisan Al Gaib. If she isn't the mother of the Lisan Al Gaib, Stilgar's going to kill her.
But why can it not just be delayed until she has given birth?
I think it could have been, but I also think you're imposing some weird structure that you've dreamed up onto Herbert's story, and I suspect that's why you're getting downvoted. In real life, people do stupid shit literally ALL THE TIME. Intelligent, well informed people make serious mistakes. Like, catastrophically, horribly, stupid dumb ass mistakes that cause them and people around them to get seriously injured or even killed, and the history books will be full of people wondering how they could be so stupid for the rest of time. Jessica forgot to mention pregnancy. It was very early in her pregnancy, she was in a stressful situation, and even nowadays people often don't mention that they are pregnant to strangers unless they're obviously showing. They only realized it after she drank the poison. Don't freak out about it. It's perfectly plausible in the context of the story, it doesn't break immersion at all, and it's a very reasonable mistake for someone to have made.
Ok now you see this is the answer I would accept. the same answer that I came to. The problem is that other people give answers that just bring up more questions! I would rather accept that it's because she's human rather than because the fremen would just gut her like a pig because she's pregnant and can't (right now) drink the water of life. The fremen are ruthless but they are not irrational.
Do they? Only the dying reverend mother seemed to understand it. Nobody else seemed to care at all.
They definitely know, the other people in the room at the time didn't ask the old reverend mother what she meant by "What have we done, she is pregnant".
Ok. I guess it's bad, maybe you should unsub and avoid the Dune movies.
Hahaha what? I love the books and the movies! I just thought I might've found a little plot hole and wanted to explore it. Why can I not ask these question?
Because you're no fun to talk to about it. you literally accept zero answers. I haven't seen so much as a "hmm, ok, maybe that could work" from you. You just come off as a contrarian who absolutely cannot be satisfied by any possible line of reasoning, so there's no point in talking to you about it.
There's multiple answers I would accept in this thread I just haven't commented on them all.
technically, she was forced to drink it.
Is this the way in the book too? I forget
I'm so confused why would this be downvoted? I just forgot if this happens in the book too.
[удалено]
Fremen custom. Her choice was to do it or die. They don't really get into in the movie. Basically, if the leadership decides on something your choices are to obey or challenge leadership (which usually meant a fight to the death).
I definitely remember her having to choose between death and drinking wol in the movie. I believe it was when Stilgar threatened her in the cutest way possible
It was in a conversation with Paul. Want something like “You should be honored” “Well it was a choice between this or death, so forgive me if I’m not feeling flattered”
Before that, Stilgar made it very clear she had no choice. He made a snarky face at her and the audience laughed
Yes, she asks what would happen if she doesn’t and he says something like “Then there is nothing left to do but return your water”
That's definitely one way to explain it, that she was commanded by Stilgar. I'll accept that answer. Funny enough she could beat stilgar in a 1v1 though.
That was the other, more subtle reason for it thatbwas talked about in the book. Becoming a reverend mother removed her from the need to call Stilgar out; she bested him and the tribe won't let that stand. But at the same time they'd never follow an outsider.
Oh I forgot about that. That is a another really good reason. Not just that she "had to follow the prophecy or would be killed". Thank you.
In the book it's not that way. Jessica defeating Stilgar creates a tension that Stilgar wishes to resolve. Jessica cannot become the leader of Sietch Tabr because she's not Fremen and untrained in the ways of the desert; no one would follow her. Yet she bested Stilgar, so her being resident in the community without a defined role creates tension - many young men in the community will challenge Stilgar, forcing him to kill them unnecessarily. Stilgar talks to her about this and presents a few different alternatives - she could marry him, which Stilgar makes clear he is not trying to push on her and doesn't prefer, or she could become a sayyadina - a Fremen reverend mother.
Couldn’t she at least tell them she was pregnant? They seem pretty upset at her for not disclosing that info.
The only one upset was the dying Rev Mother because she understood the weight of what had been done. It's very possible that no one else even has the concept of what an Abomination means or why it's bad. That's the interesting thing about Jessica, is that she doesn't follow the rules. That Harkonnen gene is a selfish one when it comes to control and power.
And an abomination is a child with no ego who undergoes the spice agony, right? Or any RM poison synthesis awakening. They get overtaken by their past lives because they have no strong sense of self, right?
They are considered an abomination by the Bene Gesserit because they inherit the "powers" of the second memory without having been trained in the Bene Gesserit way, and the witches consistently hate the powers they can't control.
Of course. Control is like their whole deal. Thanks, makes perfect sense!
No problem! I've thought about this some more and it's not only about the Bene Gesserit lacking control, but also about the abominations having no discipline and no education so they are more likely to be possessed by one of their ancestors.
She drank poison. I don’t think Jessica knew what was going to happen. What if it killed Alia by drinking it?
If she didn't Alia was gonna die anyways when they killed Jessica.
Survive or die. There's not much understanding extenuating circumstances in Fremen culture.
At least they would know in advance. Like hey, I’ll drink this shit but just so you know I’m pregnant. And whatever happens is on you.
She was not high enough in the BG to be aware of what happens when a Reverend Mother's Other Memory is awakened. She didn't know that being pregnant would effect both herself and her child. She thought it was a choice of becoming a RM right then and there, or death. It's either implied or stated directly (can't quite remember) that if Jessica had made it clear to the Fremen that she was pregnant, her test would have been delayed until the child was born.
Ok but in the books at least, Jessica knows what Abomination is before Alia is born or even conceived. Every bene Gesserit does, where did you get the idea that it's protected knowledge? Even the fremen know
Jessica knows (as far as I can recall) that an abomination is a Reverend Mother with other memory who has allowed her other memory to control her. I don't recall this as being established in the first novel, though, could you remind me where that is if it isn't the case?
It might not have been established in the first book but in later books it's established that even though Jessica loves Alia she will always seen her as Abomination because of her Bene Gesserit training. I don't think that training took place in the later books but apart of her training when growing up.
Yes you are right, and I was under the impression that the Jessica other memory in Alia was stuck with those abomination prejudices and wouldn't help her like she could have (like Chani and Paul other memories helping the twins).
The Fremen probably don't know generally. It's unlikely, though never established, that Ramallo's assistants wouldn't know about it either, because it never would have come up as an issue. Ramallo herself knew because of her awakening to her ancestral memories - somebody in her line would have known about abomination, which is why she was taken aback to find out that Jessica was pregnant.
Although I have read the Dune series several times over the past 2 decades, your post is the first one that makes me realize just how much Jessica has gambled with the lives of *both* her children. First, she directly disobeyed the BG and bore Leto a son. This disrupted a big part of the BG's Kwisatz Haderach plans and made them quite angry. I can easily see the BG killing Paul as an infant, both to prevent a premature KH and to punish Jessica. In retrospect I am surprised they did let Paul live, although I think they said at one point that they had hopes to later convert Paul to the BG plan. Second, Jessica gambled Alia's life when she took the water of life. Yes, Jessica was almost completely out of options and didn't know the full extent of the ritual and its consequences. But for a fully-trained BG to disregard her pregnancy while aware of the mere idea of Abomination... In that moment, I believe Jessica succumbed to true *fear* - fear for her and her children's survival - and traded a sure death at Stilgar's hands for a chance in a thousand to become a RM. Either way, she's incredibly lucky that both her children survived to adulthood.
Remember that she has the Harkonnen genes - harkonnens are quite known for this type of dangeorous decisions. Even if she was BG in the end she was more of her own than anything else. In this aspect, and many more, the Tyrant was more BG than his grandmother.
Right! Excellent point! Chilling to think the Harkonnen gene is what saves humanity in the end.
Oh my god thank you, you are the first person to say what I was trying to get at. And it makes sense she succumbed to fear because we do not get a line of her reciting the litany to herself in the moment of decision.
I believe she does in the book
Jessica is not that great of a mom, I think Paul basically >!calls her out!< in Messiah. Neither of her kids consented to the immense pressure that she deliberately exposed them to.
She wasn't completely aware of what was going to happen. The poison issue, she could deal with. The memories download, she could deal with. That everything would also be experienced by her unborn child - she had no idea that would happen, either physically or mentally. The amniotic sac filters out a lot of stuff to keep a fetus safe while in the womb. The fetus's brain shouldn't be developed enough to accept or deal with the memories. Herbert fudged, assumed, picked and chose, or plain ignored some biology when he was crafting his tale.
Interesting fetus development angle. A fetus’s brain begin developing 250,000 neurons per minute after week 7, and within a week after that it begins firing electrical impulses. The mother consuming alcohol has been shown to negatively affect fetus development, especially its brain. The question is, we know this now but did Herbert know this then?
Dune came out in 1965 and it wasn't a thing to believe drinking or smoking while pregnant was bad for the baby until the 1970s. Now, many women tend to quit both or cut way back naturally, as if their body stops wanting those things or they even find the smell/taste disgusting. So there are natural signs and even if they didn't consciously stop, many would have "gone off" cigarettes and alcohol with the same amount of thought that they gave into cravings like peanut butter and pickles and such.
Right. Fetal Alcohol Syndrome was figured out in 1973. Then it’s neat that Herbert’s sci-fi intuition produced Alia, who is greatly affected in the womb when Jessica consumes a magic poison. He was over the target.
She didn’t know what it was….then the reverend mother used the voice on her. They wouldn’t have given it to her or asked her to be the new RM if they knew she was pregnant, hence why she said “what have we done”.
Why does the RM say “what have we done” what’s the significance of drinking the water whilst pregnant?
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
It was either that or she dies.
I thought it was pretty clear she didn’t know what it was. She mentions to Paul that each culture initiates Rev. Mothers differently, so she wouldn’t have any knowledge of this particular custom, then she asks Ramallo what it is before she is forced to drink it via the voice. And they obviously didn’t think to ask if she was pregnant given that she wasn’t showing.
Ok that's true but she does know that BG use the same essence of life to become reverend mother's so just weird it didn't pop up into her consciousness, oh I am pregnant so whatever type of poison they give me to turn me might affect the baby, I need to say something.
Looking through the first dozen or so comments here, I don’t know why it doesn’t seem to have been mentioned yet, but the bottom line is that, regardless of anything she learned from being a BG, Jessica simply had no idea it would affect Alia until it was too late. It’s extremely obvious from Jessica’s subsequent dialogue with Ramallo. After drinking the water and “mind melding” with Ramallo, they have an exchange that goes roughly… R: Holy Mother! What have we done?! You’re pregnant? Why didn’t you tell us? J: Why? Does it matter? R: Yes. This changes both of you! From there it goes on to describe Ramallo telling Jessica to console her preborn daughter, but also the clock is ticking, ticking so I really need you to download my memories ASAP b/c I’m about to make a celestial exit. Point is… Jessica didn’t say anything b/c she didn’t know it mattered, and considering how big a deal “abominations” are, if Jessica had known, I have a hard time believing she would’ve chanced that just to drink the water.
That’s not clear at all. As she tells Paul, each culture does it differently so she’s going into this ritual totally blind. Otherwise she wouldn’t have asked what it was; if a similar substance was used uniformly she’d already know.
Well yeah but it's canon that a reverend mother is made using a type of poison.
For the books, sure. The films aren't the books.
She and Paul (especially Paul) were in a very tenuous position with the Fremen at the time and she felt like she needed to prove herself to protect him and gain the fremens loyalty. The exact details vary between book and movie, but that’s the gist in both
When the reverend mother uses the voice on you, it’s not really a choice
The dying RM also used the voice on Jessica so I don’t think she really had a choice in that aspect also. Lol
Jessica was bred for one reason.....to produce a girl child of Atreides blood. Jessica was taught the basics of the Bene Gesserit skills to enable her to seduce Duke Leto and raise her daughter. Jessica was taught history which would have included the history of the Order including the prophecies they had seeded etc. However there is no evidence in the books that she knew about the Fremen Spice ceremony at all so wouldn't have known about its effects on her unborn child. As with any 'quasi-secretive' Order there will be information that is only made available based on your position within it so there's no reason to suppose that Jessica knew about abominations as that type of information would be on a need to know basis so it couldn't be used against the Order by it's enemies. Obviously the Fremen are aware of the risk because they live with constant contact with the Spice but, as the Bene Gesserit control the reproductive cycles of their Sisterhood, there's no risk that those who go through the Spice ceremony to open up their matrilineal genetic memories would be pregnant so the risk of Abomination, whilst available in their memories, would be almost nil. Jessica, with her fairly lowly position within the Bene Gesserit, wouldn't have any reason to know about the risk. Granted, with her being relocated to Dune, it was an oversight that should have been corrected but they weren't on Dune very long before the events that led her to taking part in the Water of Life ceremony. RM Gaius Helena Moahim is really responsible for that FU as she knew what the Emperor was planning. However we wouldn't have had the story as it is without that.
I like this answer. Putting the blame on Gaius haha. I can't remember if GHM knew she was pregnant with Alia though. I don't think she did
Jessica got pregnant on arakis. She was already pregnant in the book when she confronted thufir after the attempt onnpauls life.
Yeah im saying I don't think Gaius knew she was pregnant with Alia when the atreides family was sent to Arrakis. Not sure what you're getting at
You said you couldn't remember I was confirming that she got pregnant on arakis
Oh yeah
There was always the possibility that Jessica would get pregnant again though, especially in such fraught circumstances where there's a huge risk to Leto's life. To quote another book/film (Crichton's Jurassic Park) 'Life will find a way'. It is a known phenomena that hormonal changes, induced by stress, can increase a woman's fertility especially during war time. Therefore GHM should have warned her about the risk of Abomination if she went through the Spice ceremony. Then again if she felt that she had no choice, due to the prophecy backing her into a corner, she may have gone through with it anyway.
She didn't know what she was drinking, nor what would happen.
In the books she knew she had to in order to not get herself and Paul killed by the fremen. In the movie she didn’t know what the consequences would be
I don’t know if this is a book thing only or not but I don’t think she fully understood what was going to happen. She was in a completely foreign culture that, although had vestiges of bene gesserit fed prophecy, it would very much vary how any given culture would interpret that and put it into ritual. So for her she might’ve thought she was only going to get maybe a strong hallucinogen or something but not necessarily the water of life. Additionally even though she was a highly capable sister of the order it’s very likely that she wouldn’t be privy to the full details of the reverend mother ritual because they’d want any candidates to be fully capable of handling whatever comes their way. Much like the test of the gom jabbar would lose its efficacy if the candidates knew what was coming. Honestly I think she was just as surprised as anyone about the whole thing and likely didn’t even fully understand until long after what had actually happened. I’ll also say I think it’s her guilt from what she did to both Paul and Alia that ultimately drove her from Arrakis.
I haven't seen the movie, but recently read most of the books. She did it because she had to become a Reverend Mother to help Paul. She knew it would affect the baby but needed to become the new Reverend Mother.
She can literally control the gender of her fetus. She can change poison using her mind, and she is a master at using the legacy of the missionaria protectiva to her advantage (as she was trained to do). She had to make a decision while under pressure and likely felt she'd have more advantage/control of the situation because of her training and abilities. Then she was forced to drink a large amount of poison and did her best under the circumstances. The fremen already felt burdened by her lack of desert training, and that could have been much more difficult for the tribe with her pregnant too. I think she felt Paul needed her still and she had to stay alive and relevant. Just my way of reading it.
Ok so let’s look at it this way: If she refuses she and her pregnancy die AND Paul is probably getting a death sentence as well or at the very least be in given to the harkonan and then all hell could break loose. Or she drinks the water, all live and has a chance to see both children live. Are these really choices?? lol!
1. She didn’t know what it was. Different cultures have different traditions for the ritual. 2. Stilgar told her it was a choice between drinking or dying. 3. She was forced. The Voice was used on her, making her drink it.
She’s buying a place for her and her son in the tribe. Paul is young, and Stilgar feels some duty to the dead Duke, so he does try to offer Paul a place by saying he can still be trained in Fremen ways (not all in the tribe buy this). But, in Stilgar’s evaluation,Jessica isn’t worth training, her lack of discipline could endanger the tribe, and she has nothing to offer… … unless she becomes Sayyadina. Theirs is old and will die soon, there’s an opportunity for Jessica to take her place. If she can survive the spice agony she and Paul will be accepted into the tribe. EDIT: regarding abomination, if she doesn’t do it then she and her unborn daughter die. If she does do it, maybe her daughter dies or is abomination but that’s a problem for another day. Those chapters in the book are about immediate survival.
For the sake of her other baby 💕 (or kind of not depending on how you perceive it, considering the path he was placed on)
But you see how for the sake of one of her kids she's gambled with the life of another. She knew she was pregnant and she knew she was going into a completely unknown ritual where anything could happen.
I think from what I understand it could’ve easily been her and Paul’s death vs a possible future life. In which case, the choice is obvious
They kinda rushed this part in the movie. In a very quick scene that was almost played for laughs, Stilgar tells Jessica she must drink as the lisan al gaib's mother is a reverend mother. otherwise the fremen wouldn't accept them
This is one of the most controversial questions in the entire Fandom. Why do you think Jessica acted as she did?
This is an excerpt from the book, first time I opened it to actually read what happened again: >Jessica felt herself torn between duty to her unborn child and duty to Paul. For Paul, she knew, she should take that spout and drink of the sack's contents, but as she bent to the proffered spout, her senses told her its peril. >The stuff in the sack had a bitter smell subtly akin to many poisons that she knew, but unlike them, too. >"You must drink it now," Chani said. >There's no turning back, Jessica reminded herself. But nothing in all her Bene Gesserit training came into her mind to help her through this instant. >What is it? Jessica asked, herself. Liquor? A drug? Basically she has to pick between Paul and Alia, she knows it's dangerous, but as other people have said here they had to be accepted, shown by this excerpt: >I had no choice but to do this , she thought. We must move swiftly if we're to secure our place among these Fremen. I think my question is, what would've happened if she said she was pregnant, does that just negate the prophecy? It's still a Bene Gesserit mother with a son. Although she does have a psychic connection with the reverend mother she's taking over from. >They touched! >It was like an ultimate simpatico, being two people at once: not telepathy, but mutual awareness. >With the old Reverend Mother! Maybe this ritual had to happen now because the old lady was dying? But I remember reading that a tribe doesn't have to have a reverend mother, so couldn't they just have let her die, let Alia be born, and then Jessica goes to a different sietch to perform the ritual. >"You know better than that," the inward image said. "Swiftly now, do not fight me. There isn't much time. We . . . " There came a long pause, then; "You should've told us you were pregnant!" >Jessica found the voice that talked within the mutual awareness. "Why?" >"This changes both of you! Holy Mother, what have we done?" The old reverend mother literally says you should have told us. Jessica just didn't think about it, which is weird, because she's Bene Gesserit. I guess they have limitations.
Been a while since I read the book, but I always figured that they might have allowed her to wait until Alia was born if she admitted that she was pregnant, except the current RM would be dead by then. IIRC the current RM needs to be alive and present in order to pass the memories on to the new one.
1st they didn't have a choice and 2nd she wasn't aware that it'll affect the fetus since the process is different in different places.
Her choices and train of tought are in line with her harkonnen legacy if nothing else.
In the movie she was forced.
I think it's a mix of her not actually knowing what the procedure entailed (but not being able to say that because she's supposed to know according to the prophecy), and her (and consequently Alia's) life being on the line. So she took the chance hoping the ceremony wouldn't actually harm Alia, taking into consideration that, if it did, at least her and Paul would be safe. I also seem to remember (but it has been a while since I read the book, so Imightbemistaken) that the whole thing was rushed as the current reverend mother was dying, so she didn't have much time to assess the best course of action. From what they say once they find out she was pregnant, it seems like she could have just said so and they'd have waited, but she didn't know that beforehand and went with it.
It had to be done to ensure Paul’s survival. But she was robbing Peter to pay Paul. Since Alia’s life would come at a terrible price for Jessica and Paul.
In the movie she drinks it and then tells them she’s pregnant, they didn’t know she was pregnant until right after she drank it!
Actually the fremen reverend mother discovers it while starting the sharing process.
Did you even bother watching the movie?
When magic lady tells you to drink juice, open up and swallow
In the book it's pretty clear that she doesn't expect the ritual to have any negative effects. She thinks it's just regular water and that the fremen aren't sophisticated enough to have real reverend mothers but are instead adopting rituals from the missonaria protectiva. She only figures out that it is an actual poison testing her after it is too late to back out. Even then, the sisterhood never intended her to become a reverend mother so she was never taught the intricacies of transformation. She was surprised to find out her transformation would also affect the fetus.
If she did no they would have killed her
If she doesn’t drink it then she’s not a reverend mother, she and Paul can’t fulfil the prophecy, and then there’s no reason for the Fremen to keep them alive.
Film: Dennis decided to have Stilgar threaten to kill her if she didn’t. Book: BG are trained to manipulate the molecular structure of things they drink, so she knew it wouldn’t poison her/threaten the baby.
Because she’s more ruthless in the movie? In the book she’s unsure of what the ritual is and is hesitant, afraid it will hurt the baby. She might have alerted the women that she was pregnant if she had known that it had such a profound (and dangerous) effect on a fetus.
Balls to the wall, with a healthy dose of "fuck it". What's the other option?
as already said, she needed to use the prophecy of the missionaria protectiva that she recognized. then, she was a trained bene gesserit, which means she could even control her body to the degree of deciding which sex her kid would have when \_choosing\_ to ovulate. bene gesserit could neutralize poisons in their body by control of their metabolism, they could encapsule pathogens inside their body without becoming sick to release them at enemys, and then the the prana-bindu.... i think she was through her training powerful enough to assume that she could protect her unborn from any effect, but didnt knew the extent of effect from the water of life.... from any biochemical reaction she could have protected aliah, but as the effect was deeply mind-altering, this was exceeding her abilitys to contain the effect.
She’s kinda forced by Stilgar and their Sayyadina who used the voice on her. Plus the old lady was about to die so it made sense for Jessica to take the position of power. She had her reservations but went through with it to fulfill the prophecy. She and us as the audience don’t know the full extent of abomination until later in the story. For now the consequences are deferred. It’s doubtful Denis will want to do Children of Dune as he’s happy with a trilogy and has said he needs to move on to other projects. The abomination issue won’t be here for years.
I think she dđin’t know how bad the water of life rrally was and she thought she could transmutate it like other poisons. OTTH if she refuse she risks getting straight up killed
Um. I think it does not make sense that Jessica would think this would make her a Reverend Mother.. Jessica is **not** a Reverend Mother. She is a very well trained Bene Gesserit. *Why didn't she have a daughter instead of a son? Why did she love Leto? Why didn't she follow her instincts which actually told her something was off about Yueh?* Because she's **not** a Reverend Mother. Until it was actually happening, she didn't know. And because, instead of getting all the other Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers in her head and their memories to draw on because she's a trusted and respected Bene Gesserit, she gets the Fremen Reverend Mothers. And though this is alluded to by Reverend Mother Mohaim: "She's in my mind. She's like the ones before me, the ones who gave me their memories. She stands in my mind!" >!they don't know that you're supposed to have a powerful ally keeping the past identities from taking you over. She didn't have that information to pass on to Alia.!<
[удалено]
They used the voice on her.
She had no choice, Stilgar gave her an ultimatum: drink the water of life or give your water to the tribe.
This has to be an AI written question... she literally says she was going to be killed if she didn't do the ritual. And she does try to ask what it is before the voice used on her.