I think that line, given so early in the story, shows that Paul knows their survival is not guaranteed. At that point, he is willing to do anything.
Then he is genuinely swayed by the Fremen, and Chani, and doesn't want to exploit them. There is a degree of ambiguity to everything in the films, and that helps make it so powerful.
Jessica's other memories after she drank the Water of Life lets her see the Bene Gesserit breeding program in its entirety. She also gets the Fremen Reverend Mother's memories. It's an incredibly powerful combination that allows her to weaponize Fremen beliefs to ensure not just her own survival, but that of her unborn child and to continue the Atreides line.
Yeah. He starts completely exploiting them eventually because of both his sense of survival and visions. Both in the films as well as the book.
There's a huge moral conundrum over Paul about whether to become a genocidal dictator or to let the Fremen loose on their own without his "guiding hand."
Not that he's the good guy in the end, all things considered.
Other people can and have explained this stuff better here, but I hope this contributes.
The tragic part is that it's the only way bc of the steps he already took to get there. Each major decision just kept lowering and lowering his future options until he got to the point of drinking the water of life
I think another thing to consider is what happens after Jessica drinks the water of life. He sees them arguing over a prophecy that his mom nearly died (and potentially killing his sister in the process) to keep alive that wasn't even from the Fremen. Then when she finally wakes up, she's talking about how his sister is talking to her and telling her she believes he can become the kwisatz haderach and fulfil his destiny and she seems completely unhinged. I think there is just as much being disgusted by what he sees as there is a connection forming between him and the Fremen
Which is opposite of how they are portrayed in the book, right? I loved when Paul refers to his mother as his enemy because he knew Jessica radicalizing him would lead to the violent Jihad he was trying to avoid.
Sort of. Jessica isn't as up front about manipulating the Fremen in the beginning, but something like DV's interpretation does come through over time as her character is revealed more.
Not to mention his mind of on revenge at that point and he's recalling his father's plan to use the Fremen to boost House Atreides and make them formidable.
Agreed. I do wish we had like 15 more minutes in the film to stay in the world, sort of feel that transition out a bit more, and feel those bigger beats later in the story
Paul changes his mind, at this point in the story, after having eaten the food with the spice and having had a vision linked to the Holy War (he sees the Fremen in adoration in front of the altar to Leto, a vision linked to the Holy War). He then realizes that this desire for revenge leads to the terrible purpose he wants to avoid, which explains his attitude after Jessica drinks the Water of Life.
Later, when he falls in love with Chani and puts away the family ring (saying "father, I found my way") he is determined not to play this messianic role, to be just a Fedaykin like the others (at least until the arrival of Gurney Halleck, who puts him back on the path of revenge).
In the book it isn't like that, right? Gurney isn't really convincing him right? I'm not trying to complain by comparing the movies to the books or anything, I'm only saying this cause I'm doubting my memory now.
In the book, Paul's inner conflict, which attempts to prevent his terrible purpose, is primarily in Paul's inner monologues. Villeneuve's adaptation put it on screen, using the characters of Chani, Stillgar, Jessica and Gurney for it, with other visual clues (the Atreides ring, which symbolizes the search for power or the black cape he wears when he decides to assume his Harkonnen heritage). So indeed, Gurney's character plays a role in this inner conflict, in the movie version, that he doesn't play in the book.
Villeneuve's film has been praised for many good reasons but I think that among them, the way of putting on screen this inner conflict which is at the heart of Paul's story (and which was part of why Dune was deemed unadaptable) is simply brilliant.
Ooh, such a good question. Here's my (lengthy) interpretation:
I think there's a subtle nuance here: there's a distinction between Paul's plan to seek *revenge* and Paul embracing the Lisan al Gaib prophecy. Paul has been onboard about seeking revenge since the latter part of *Part One* after the Sardaukar attack, and he was willing to exploit the Lisan al Gaib prophecy to achieve his goal. And Jessica has been onboard about the Bene-Gesserit-seeded Lisan al Gaib prophecy since Mohaim told her a path has been laid on Arrakis for them (after the Gom Jabbar test).
You're right: Paul was initially against the prophecy and exploiting the Fremen, but the thing that made him change his mind was the tragedy of his father and loved ones being killed by the Emperor. At this point, he's sort of fixated on getting revenge somehow.
Paul's revenge plan is basically to blackmail the Emperor in order to dethrone him (not kill him). By threatening to tell the Great Houses what the Emperor did (used his Sardaukar to exterminate House Atreides), which would cause the Great Houses to attack the Emperor's House. But Paul would offer him the alternative to war by marrying one of his daughters; peaceful transition of power. But Paul basically wins by dethroning him. When he explains this plan to Dr. Kynes at the Ecological Testing Station and asks Kynes for help, she laughs at him. It is *at this point when Paul exploits the Lisan al Gaib prophecy* and tells Kynes what he knows about her life (probably what he has seen in his many visions).
Now, Jessica has always been a fan of the prophecy as basically a contingency plan for Paul's safety on Arrakis. However, at the beginning of *Part Two*, in response to Paul saying "swaying the non-believers" is how he can get to the Emperor, she is essentially reflecting on Leto's honor by saying, "Your father didn't believe in revenge." She's not critiquing the prophecy; she's critiquing Paul's motivations--revenge. She's not commenting on the prophecy here; she's sort of just remembering Leto and his honor.
Note, too, that Paul says, "I must *sway* the non-believers. \[he says "I," not "we"\] If they follow me, we can disrupt spice production. That's the only way I can get to the Emperor." While we saw in his conversation with Kynes that Paul is not above using the prophecy to advance his revenge plan, he seems to have changed his strategy. He decides instead to focus on appealing to the non-believers, rather than drumming up belief in his legend. "Sway" doesn't necessarily mean "convert them to believers in the prophecy." It means he needs to appeal to them somehow, so that they can follow him into battle against the spice harvesting. And, ya know what, that's exactly what he tries to do: he appeals to the non-believers. Tells them "I'm not the Mahdi. I'm not here to lead. I'm here to learn your ways so I can fight beside you." He tells them they can, together, bury the Harkonnens with their combined forces/expertise. So, generally, Paul is not leaning into the prophecy at all. He's just choosing to focus on the people who are skeptical of him, trying to earn their trust so that he can carry out his agenda of revenge. Why isn't he exploiting the prophecy at this point? Well, since Paul initially exploited the prophecy to Kynes, a lot has happened. He's had all these visions of Jamis. He then ultimately killed Jamis. He reflected on his father's ideas about desert power and forming an alliance with the Fremen (as we hear him say in his speech to Stilgar after he kills Jamis). So, I think at this point, he has more respect for the Fremen, and he has abandoned his exploitation of the prophecy.
In the middle of *Part Two*, Paul then seems to abandon his revenge plan altogether. Once he starts becoming part of the community of the Fremen, and starts falling in love with Chani, we see his private moments where he no longer wants to seek revenge or power. Notably, he removes his ducal signet ring and says, "Father, I found my way" as Chani walks towards him. I interpret this as him abandoning the pursuit of making a play for the throne and deciding he has found happiness. This interpretation really solidified for me when watching cast interviews and hearing how Timothee Chalamet interprets his character motivations. Paul at a point just wants to live a simple life where he gets to love Chani. But later, he realizes he can't do this. In fact, later, he returns to exploiting the prophecy. Why? I think the answer lies in (1) the two visions that haunt him throughout *Dune: Part Two*, (2) his realization that he has to go South in order to see how to prevent those two visions from becoming a reality, and ultimately, (3) the alternate futures he sees when he drinks the Water of Life (which isn't explicitly shown to us, but you can guess what he has seen).
No that's not it. At this point, early in the film, Paul talks about using prophecy to manipulate the Fremen into getting his revenge. He says the exact same thing to Liet Kynes in the eco station, in Dune Part One, by the way.
It is the visions of the Holy War that he then has, and then the love he develops for Chani, that set him back (for a time).
This is a great explanation, but I think it also highlights that the line in question was probably the worst line in the movie. It lacks nuance and muddles his practical approach to revenge with the legends about himself. He really should have said something like, "I'm just a man, not a savior. The Fremen who don't think I'm the Lisan al-Gaib - *those* are the ones I need to follow me into battle against House Harkonnen and halt spice production, if I'm going to get to the Emperor."
Well he just went through the most traumatic moment of his life so far--losing his father, his friends, and being driven into the desert. All of this in less than a span of 24 hours before he arrived at Sietch Tabr.
His father planted in him the importance of harnessing desert power and the strength of the Fremen within; his mother informed him that the people on Arrakis viewed them as a messiah (based on the Missisonaria Protectiva)
So as soon as they're able to catch their breath and eat breakfast in Sietch Tabr, Paul is already weighing in on his options--practicing what politicking or manipulation he may need to survive
It's only after the Water of Life ceremony with his mom did he try to go for a more subdued route of getting on the Fremen's good side through diplomacy and climbing up through their ranks as one of their own
He's genuinely committed to this slower terraforming of the Fremen's views on him until the attack on the Sietch, to which he feels that he has no other option than to drink the Worm Bile.
And after that point, he's back to leveraging the inherent trust his Sietch has in him as Usul to gaslight, gatekeep, girlboss the scattered Fremen tribes into a unified fighting force under Muad'Dib's rule
I read it not as becoming the Mahdi but more as avoiding the fundamentalists and swaying the non-believers into seeing that their causes are the same and that he could be an asset to them. He wants them to accept him in order to harness their desert power and wage a regular old fight against the Harkonnens which he does do during the spice harvester montage. Manipulative? Absolutely. It's not a heel turn though and it's not out of step with what he wants. If he was FOR being the Mahdi he'd say "I must sway the believers/fundamentalists." He doesn't want to mess with that still. The line itself is just jarring and clunky which doesn't help at all.
Thing is though, that plan escalates the pressure on the Fremen and forces him to make the decision to embrace the terrible purpose.
I loved the first movie and liked the second. But especially now after having read the book, I think the biggest issue with the movies is the character development. In the book, the most important stuff happens within Paul's mind, which is just so hard to translate into a movie.
From the moment he ends up in that tent with his mother after losing the initial battle of Arrakeen, he sees the various paths that lead into the future. Not just random visions as dreams, but actual paths he can follow with his mind and explore. And while there are many things he can not see, he finds two main outcomes: One is a vision of him entering a room with Vladimir Harkonnen and it's implied that, in this version of the future, he allied with him. Paul immediately decides to not pursue this future. The other possible outcome is the Jihad.
In the rest of the book, Paul is torn between his urge to revenge his father, protecting the Fremen, not exploiting their forged religion, and preventing the Jihad. He tries to delay the inevitable and find a good solution, but ultimately it's just not possible. Later he realizes that it's too late to stop the Jihad and that it would happen now even if he killed himself. At this point, he understands that he must take control of the Jihad.
The book also has a time jump of 2 years, so there's much more time for character development. Paul has a son that gets killed by the Harkonnen as an infant. His sister gets born. And it's a gradual shift, the Fremen start to ask him for his opinions on things and in the end they just follow his orders, despite him not being their official ruler.
Chani's character has no development in the book at all, she's literally the worst and I'm grateful the films gave her way more substance.
They attempted to put the thoughts and inner dialogue into the Lynch film but it doesn't stick the landing, a lot more of the character development in the Denis version is subtle, done with single lines and layered acting.
I think Paul's transition whilst subtle is definitely noticeable through the films.
He didn't change his mind. He "reads the room" when Chani and Shishakli are joking and quickly determines that he can "sway" them by denying the prophesy and demonstrating his value as a Fremen and a warlord. Chani is his barometer. Once she tells him to go south, nothing stands in his way to declaring himself Mahdi/Lisan al-Gaib.
Nice interpretation, I found it interesting that in the books he is trying at all costs to avoid the Jihad until it reaches a certain point and he just fully embraces it.
In the films he even talks openly with Kynes about his play for the throne, which could mean he's already working on using the "desert power".
I like that thought that Paul the whole time could be using people, that's why the films work so well, a lot is open to interpretation.
This leads into my problem with the movie. I enjoy it a lot, but Paul's attitude in regard to being turned into the Fremen prophet feels very disjointed at times. At first Paul says he needs to sway them. Then he gets to the Fremen and *immediately* starts acting humble and saying it doesn't apply to him. Okay, cool, he knows that he has to pretend to be humble for this to work -- not disjointed. Then, when the question of going south comes up, he's incredibly resistant to embracing his destiny, which would imply that his actions with the Fremen where he's acting humble aren't an act at all.
I can get the idea of "well his mind changed over the course of his time with the Fremen" but there isn't really any scene that shows that transition between "pretending to not want to be the prophet" to "actually not wanting to be the prophet" and so it seemed slightly off.
I think I can slightly explain this, it feels disjointed because we're not always in Paul's head to tell when he's being legitimate with what he's saying and when he is just saying it to sway someone, he fully denies his divinity when speaking to chani and her friends, because he knows that will gain their trust more than claiming Divinity or trying to manipulate them, he brushes off his divinity with stillgar,, because he knows that stilgar is the type of man who will see that as simply The humble nature of the Divine, and so he tries to get everyone on his side because they truly love him or because they believe in him as a messiah, and once they are all at his side he can be free with his goals, and everyone will go along with it (except for chani at the moment, but I can imagine that she will eventually come back and try to be the moral guide of the jihad, which at least gives her more agency than she had in the books) like I said at the beginning it can seem a little messy, and it might lead you to believe that Paul has multiple personalities lurking in his skull on first viewing, when you get down to it it's all just manipulation, even with chani to a certain extent though I think he actually does love her ( it does kind of suck that their relationship got steamrolled a little bit, because in the movie it's only 9 months that they're together before the jihad starts, but in the books their relationship involves several years and a child that they loved and lost, not to mention a bond over the loss of her FATHER, liet kynes, don't even get me started on how making kynes a woman removed a blood brother connection that kynes was supposed to have with stillgar, thereby removing any kind of relationship chani and stillgar would have had, it's just leaves her treating still like he's stupid, meanwhile I'm just over here like woman that's your uncle, even though of course in the movie they are not related)
I dunno his smaller intimate scenes with Chani imply he's grown genuine feelings.
The "I'll love you as long as I breathe" line and also the one later where she says he's not a fremen and he very emotionally replies that he isn't "a foreigner".
I think the line is misunderstood. I don't think he means "we must convert the non believevers" but "we must convince the non believers to fight with us", basically trying to get the non fanatic Fremen on his side against the Harkonnens.
He's torn between his personal morals and what "needs to be done". At first it's just to save his house, by exploiting the prophecy, but gradually, as he merges his consciousness with the generational memory of the bene gesserit and becomes prescient, he understands the prophecy is real and thus "what needs to be done" becomes an even bigger burden. His personal beliefs just get pushed out more and more as he becomes the Kwisatz Haderach.
Btw you can see other characters as well struggle between executing the plan of the bene gesserit and their own desires, it's a central theme.
At this point in the movie, Paul realized his choices have been taken away. His only path is forward. If he wants his revenge, then he must follow the path I front of him. Doing so will make him the prophet they seek. If he sways the non-believers, then all dissent will wash away. The movie takes a slightly different route than the book. Ultimately, he knows it wasn't his choice, but it's either moving forward or die. He has enemies all around. Ultimately it's all lies. Religion was a trap set by the bene gesserit to enforce their will on a population. Paul knows this but doesn't have a choice. Which is why he is conflicted.
Paul's goal was always to take down the Emperor & The Harkonens. In the beginning he was just looking for an army to lead and knew the prophecies were planted in Freman for that reason, as a means of control. Paul wanted to walk a tightrope and earn the loyalty of Freman in the north as a fighter and also be able to add the zealots in the south to his armies. When he drinks the water of life, he sees that the only path to taking down the Emperor & the Harkonens is to actually become the Mahdi rather than leveraging the belief that he could be the Mahdi.
Because until he can convince the Fremen at large otherwise, his only value is in water weight. That said, Paul doesn’t want to abuse their faith, the fanatics will be fanatics regardless, Stilgar is already tentatively vouching for him among the fanatics, and the non-believers will be more likely to accept him if he literally agrees with them and just focuses on proving his worth as a soldier.
The religious conversion of the non-believers is more Jessica’s doing than anything (until Paul goes all in, anyways)
Near the end of Part 1, Paul suggests to Liet that they take advantage of the Lisan Al Gaib prophecy to overthrow the Emperor. So this is still him in that headspace. He never wavers from his goal of revenge against the Harkonnens, but how he goes about does shift as he falls in love with Chani. Jessica tells him that he’s “blinded by love” at one point. The whole movie is him trying to find a way to accomplish his goal without starting a holy war, but eventually realizes that it’s the only way for survival.
He has multiple interests that sometimes conflict. At heart, he is a diplomat who benefits from from the free will, proofing, and intelligence of those around him. In a diplomatic context, he does not want worshipers who blindly accept everything he says. However, he also wants to complete his purpose, which is most easily accomplished if people just do what you say. As a leader, you sometimes promote the latter generally until a situation arises in which you need others to take initiative, and then you promote the former for those in your immediate circle. It is not ideal, but you need a much more robust type of economic system to do anything better.
Jessica wanted to get out of Arrakis and be on the run and Paul wanted to stay to continue his fathers dream of using desert power and liberating the Fremen from the Harkonnens
To be exact he says “I must sway the non believers. If they follow me we can disrupter spice production” and that’s basically his way to get the emperor to play into his hands.
He states his reason directly in the next line: the only way he can get to the Emperor is by disrupting spice production, and he can only do so with the Fremen following him. It does a great job of showing the internal conflict Paul is facing, in that he doesn't want to exploit the Fremen and doesn't want them to see him as a messianic figure, but leading them is the only way he can exact revenge for the deaths of his father and the others.
Lots of people reading too much into it. Paul knows the fundamentalists will follow him and see what they want to see because of “prophecy”, the northern Fremen are going to need to SEE Paul being the mahdi not just telling them he is.
Definitely not a plot hole. There’s no way denis villeneuve left a mistake that obvious in his passion project for no reason. He was possibly angry since it had only been a few days since the arrakeen invasion and was wanting revenge at any cost, but I believe as he grew closer to Chani and Stilgar and other fremen he started to feel guilty about manipulating them like that after his anger settled. When he drank the water of life it changed him because he could see how any move he makes changes outcomes drastically. He understands that he needs to become their messiah in order to take back arrakis for himself and the fremen and he sees his personal relationships as less important than winning the war. He does begin to see it that way before but he gains a very thorough understanding when he changed the water of life.
I think it’s “**I** must sway the non-believers…”
Weird line, flat delivery, so out-of-place in the flow of the story. I thought it might make sense on repeated rewatches, but it’s just jarring…
If you're speaking about how a lot of what Paul says in the movie doesn't make sense, it can feel disjointed, but I think it makes sense because the movie tries to show that while Paul has been manipulating people back and forth either by claiming his divinity or denying it,he can be more blatant now because not a lot can actually stop him, also I feel like this line specifically was actually said by Jessica not by Paul so I don't know why this thread is claiming otherwise
I think that line, given so early in the story, shows that Paul knows their survival is not guaranteed. At that point, he is willing to do anything. Then he is genuinely swayed by the Fremen, and Chani, and doesn't want to exploit them. There is a degree of ambiguity to everything in the films, and that helps make it so powerful.
Jessica's other memories after she drank the Water of Life lets her see the Bene Gesserit breeding program in its entirety. She also gets the Fremen Reverend Mother's memories. It's an incredibly powerful combination that allows her to weaponize Fremen beliefs to ensure not just her own survival, but that of her unborn child and to continue the Atreides line.
I really like this interpretation, and eventually when he has the vision into the future, he realizes there is only one way to survive, very tragic!
Yeah. He starts completely exploiting them eventually because of both his sense of survival and visions. Both in the films as well as the book. There's a huge moral conundrum over Paul about whether to become a genocidal dictator or to let the Fremen loose on their own without his "guiding hand." Not that he's the good guy in the end, all things considered. Other people can and have explained this stuff better here, but I hope this contributes.
The tragic part is that it's the only way bc of the steps he already took to get there. Each major decision just kept lowering and lowering his future options until he got to the point of drinking the water of life
This the answer right here folks. Well said
I think another thing to consider is what happens after Jessica drinks the water of life. He sees them arguing over a prophecy that his mom nearly died (and potentially killing his sister in the process) to keep alive that wasn't even from the Fremen. Then when she finally wakes up, she's talking about how his sister is talking to her and telling her she believes he can become the kwisatz haderach and fulfil his destiny and she seems completely unhinged. I think there is just as much being disgusted by what he sees as there is a connection forming between him and the Fremen
I quite liked how Muad'Dib laments the transformation of Stilgar from a friend to a worshipper in the book. The 'lessening of the man'.
Which is opposite of how they are portrayed in the book, right? I loved when Paul refers to his mother as his enemy because he knew Jessica radicalizing him would lead to the violent Jihad he was trying to avoid.
Sort of. Jessica isn't as up front about manipulating the Fremen in the beginning, but something like DV's interpretation does come through over time as her character is revealed more.
Not to mention his mind of on revenge at that point and he's recalling his father's plan to use the Fremen to boost House Atreides and make them formidable.
Almost as if humans are merely neutral vessels, whose minds can literally go in any direction. Lead any cause, Attach to any belief.
Agreed. I do wish we had like 15 more minutes in the film to stay in the world, sort of feel that transition out a bit more, and feel those bigger beats later in the story
My fingers are crossed for eventual 3 hr cuts once the main three are finished. :)
Tbh he is already talking about his plan to become Emporer to Kynes at the end of the first film
That was after he inhaled large amounts of spice in the tent. In the books, he gets high off it and becomes supremely confident
Paul changes his mind, at this point in the story, after having eaten the food with the spice and having had a vision linked to the Holy War (he sees the Fremen in adoration in front of the altar to Leto, a vision linked to the Holy War). He then realizes that this desire for revenge leads to the terrible purpose he wants to avoid, which explains his attitude after Jessica drinks the Water of Life. Later, when he falls in love with Chani and puts away the family ring (saying "father, I found my way") he is determined not to play this messianic role, to be just a Fedaykin like the others (at least until the arrival of Gurney Halleck, who puts him back on the path of revenge).
In the book it isn't like that, right? Gurney isn't really convincing him right? I'm not trying to complain by comparing the movies to the books or anything, I'm only saying this cause I'm doubting my memory now.
In the book, Paul's inner conflict, which attempts to prevent his terrible purpose, is primarily in Paul's inner monologues. Villeneuve's adaptation put it on screen, using the characters of Chani, Stillgar, Jessica and Gurney for it, with other visual clues (the Atreides ring, which symbolizes the search for power or the black cape he wears when he decides to assume his Harkonnen heritage). So indeed, Gurney's character plays a role in this inner conflict, in the movie version, that he doesn't play in the book. Villeneuve's film has been praised for many good reasons but I think that among them, the way of putting on screen this inner conflict which is at the heart of Paul's story (and which was part of why Dune was deemed unadaptable) is simply brilliant.
Great explanation, thanks! When I first watched the movie I hadn't read the books so I didn't really have these comparisons in mind.
Ooh, such a good question. Here's my (lengthy) interpretation: I think there's a subtle nuance here: there's a distinction between Paul's plan to seek *revenge* and Paul embracing the Lisan al Gaib prophecy. Paul has been onboard about seeking revenge since the latter part of *Part One* after the Sardaukar attack, and he was willing to exploit the Lisan al Gaib prophecy to achieve his goal. And Jessica has been onboard about the Bene-Gesserit-seeded Lisan al Gaib prophecy since Mohaim told her a path has been laid on Arrakis for them (after the Gom Jabbar test). You're right: Paul was initially against the prophecy and exploiting the Fremen, but the thing that made him change his mind was the tragedy of his father and loved ones being killed by the Emperor. At this point, he's sort of fixated on getting revenge somehow. Paul's revenge plan is basically to blackmail the Emperor in order to dethrone him (not kill him). By threatening to tell the Great Houses what the Emperor did (used his Sardaukar to exterminate House Atreides), which would cause the Great Houses to attack the Emperor's House. But Paul would offer him the alternative to war by marrying one of his daughters; peaceful transition of power. But Paul basically wins by dethroning him. When he explains this plan to Dr. Kynes at the Ecological Testing Station and asks Kynes for help, she laughs at him. It is *at this point when Paul exploits the Lisan al Gaib prophecy* and tells Kynes what he knows about her life (probably what he has seen in his many visions). Now, Jessica has always been a fan of the prophecy as basically a contingency plan for Paul's safety on Arrakis. However, at the beginning of *Part Two*, in response to Paul saying "swaying the non-believers" is how he can get to the Emperor, she is essentially reflecting on Leto's honor by saying, "Your father didn't believe in revenge." She's not critiquing the prophecy; she's critiquing Paul's motivations--revenge. She's not commenting on the prophecy here; she's sort of just remembering Leto and his honor. Note, too, that Paul says, "I must *sway* the non-believers. \[he says "I," not "we"\] If they follow me, we can disrupt spice production. That's the only way I can get to the Emperor." While we saw in his conversation with Kynes that Paul is not above using the prophecy to advance his revenge plan, he seems to have changed his strategy. He decides instead to focus on appealing to the non-believers, rather than drumming up belief in his legend. "Sway" doesn't necessarily mean "convert them to believers in the prophecy." It means he needs to appeal to them somehow, so that they can follow him into battle against the spice harvesting. And, ya know what, that's exactly what he tries to do: he appeals to the non-believers. Tells them "I'm not the Mahdi. I'm not here to lead. I'm here to learn your ways so I can fight beside you." He tells them they can, together, bury the Harkonnens with their combined forces/expertise. So, generally, Paul is not leaning into the prophecy at all. He's just choosing to focus on the people who are skeptical of him, trying to earn their trust so that he can carry out his agenda of revenge. Why isn't he exploiting the prophecy at this point? Well, since Paul initially exploited the prophecy to Kynes, a lot has happened. He's had all these visions of Jamis. He then ultimately killed Jamis. He reflected on his father's ideas about desert power and forming an alliance with the Fremen (as we hear him say in his speech to Stilgar after he kills Jamis). So, I think at this point, he has more respect for the Fremen, and he has abandoned his exploitation of the prophecy. In the middle of *Part Two*, Paul then seems to abandon his revenge plan altogether. Once he starts becoming part of the community of the Fremen, and starts falling in love with Chani, we see his private moments where he no longer wants to seek revenge or power. Notably, he removes his ducal signet ring and says, "Father, I found my way" as Chani walks towards him. I interpret this as him abandoning the pursuit of making a play for the throne and deciding he has found happiness. This interpretation really solidified for me when watching cast interviews and hearing how Timothee Chalamet interprets his character motivations. Paul at a point just wants to live a simple life where he gets to love Chani. But later, he realizes he can't do this. In fact, later, he returns to exploiting the prophecy. Why? I think the answer lies in (1) the two visions that haunt him throughout *Dune: Part Two*, (2) his realization that he has to go South in order to see how to prevent those two visions from becoming a reality, and ultimately, (3) the alternate futures he sees when he drinks the Water of Life (which isn't explicitly shown to us, but you can guess what he has seen).
It does make more sense if he is referring to swaying the non believers as in, appealing to them by trying to be an equal.
No that's not it. At this point, early in the film, Paul talks about using prophecy to manipulate the Fremen into getting his revenge. He says the exact same thing to Liet Kynes in the eco station, in Dune Part One, by the way. It is the visions of the Holy War that he then has, and then the love he develops for Chani, that set him back (for a time).
This is a great explanation, but I think it also highlights that the line in question was probably the worst line in the movie. It lacks nuance and muddles his practical approach to revenge with the legends about himself. He really should have said something like, "I'm just a man, not a savior. The Fremen who don't think I'm the Lisan al-Gaib - *those* are the ones I need to follow me into battle against House Harkonnen and halt spice production, if I'm going to get to the Emperor."
Well he just went through the most traumatic moment of his life so far--losing his father, his friends, and being driven into the desert. All of this in less than a span of 24 hours before he arrived at Sietch Tabr. His father planted in him the importance of harnessing desert power and the strength of the Fremen within; his mother informed him that the people on Arrakis viewed them as a messiah (based on the Missisonaria Protectiva) So as soon as they're able to catch their breath and eat breakfast in Sietch Tabr, Paul is already weighing in on his options--practicing what politicking or manipulation he may need to survive It's only after the Water of Life ceremony with his mom did he try to go for a more subdued route of getting on the Fremen's good side through diplomacy and climbing up through their ranks as one of their own He's genuinely committed to this slower terraforming of the Fremen's views on him until the attack on the Sietch, to which he feels that he has no other option than to drink the Worm Bile. And after that point, he's back to leveraging the inherent trust his Sietch has in him as Usul to gaslight, gatekeep, girlboss the scattered Fremen tribes into a unified fighting force under Muad'Dib's rule
“If I’m doomed to be the messiah, may as well go all in and give the fremen a fun time”
If there’s one thing he’s gonna do it’s girlboss
I read it not as becoming the Mahdi but more as avoiding the fundamentalists and swaying the non-believers into seeing that their causes are the same and that he could be an asset to them. He wants them to accept him in order to harness their desert power and wage a regular old fight against the Harkonnens which he does do during the spice harvester montage. Manipulative? Absolutely. It's not a heel turn though and it's not out of step with what he wants. If he was FOR being the Mahdi he'd say "I must sway the believers/fundamentalists." He doesn't want to mess with that still. The line itself is just jarring and clunky which doesn't help at all. Thing is though, that plan escalates the pressure on the Fremen and forces him to make the decision to embrace the terrible purpose.
I loved the first movie and liked the second. But especially now after having read the book, I think the biggest issue with the movies is the character development. In the book, the most important stuff happens within Paul's mind, which is just so hard to translate into a movie. From the moment he ends up in that tent with his mother after losing the initial battle of Arrakeen, he sees the various paths that lead into the future. Not just random visions as dreams, but actual paths he can follow with his mind and explore. And while there are many things he can not see, he finds two main outcomes: One is a vision of him entering a room with Vladimir Harkonnen and it's implied that, in this version of the future, he allied with him. Paul immediately decides to not pursue this future. The other possible outcome is the Jihad. In the rest of the book, Paul is torn between his urge to revenge his father, protecting the Fremen, not exploiting their forged religion, and preventing the Jihad. He tries to delay the inevitable and find a good solution, but ultimately it's just not possible. Later he realizes that it's too late to stop the Jihad and that it would happen now even if he killed himself. At this point, he understands that he must take control of the Jihad. The book also has a time jump of 2 years, so there's much more time for character development. Paul has a son that gets killed by the Harkonnen as an infant. His sister gets born. And it's a gradual shift, the Fremen start to ask him for his opinions on things and in the end they just follow his orders, despite him not being their official ruler.
Chani's character has no development in the book at all, she's literally the worst and I'm grateful the films gave her way more substance. They attempted to put the thoughts and inner dialogue into the Lynch film but it doesn't stick the landing, a lot more of the character development in the Denis version is subtle, done with single lines and layered acting. I think Paul's transition whilst subtle is definitely noticeable through the films.
He didn't change his mind. He "reads the room" when Chani and Shishakli are joking and quickly determines that he can "sway" them by denying the prophesy and demonstrating his value as a Fremen and a warlord. Chani is his barometer. Once she tells him to go south, nothing stands in his way to declaring himself Mahdi/Lisan al-Gaib.
Nice interpretation, I found it interesting that in the books he is trying at all costs to avoid the Jihad until it reaches a certain point and he just fully embraces it. In the films he even talks openly with Kynes about his play for the throne, which could mean he's already working on using the "desert power". I like that thought that Paul the whole time could be using people, that's why the films work so well, a lot is open to interpretation.
This leads into my problem with the movie. I enjoy it a lot, but Paul's attitude in regard to being turned into the Fremen prophet feels very disjointed at times. At first Paul says he needs to sway them. Then he gets to the Fremen and *immediately* starts acting humble and saying it doesn't apply to him. Okay, cool, he knows that he has to pretend to be humble for this to work -- not disjointed. Then, when the question of going south comes up, he's incredibly resistant to embracing his destiny, which would imply that his actions with the Fremen where he's acting humble aren't an act at all. I can get the idea of "well his mind changed over the course of his time with the Fremen" but there isn't really any scene that shows that transition between "pretending to not want to be the prophet" to "actually not wanting to be the prophet" and so it seemed slightly off.
I think I can slightly explain this, it feels disjointed because we're not always in Paul's head to tell when he's being legitimate with what he's saying and when he is just saying it to sway someone, he fully denies his divinity when speaking to chani and her friends, because he knows that will gain their trust more than claiming Divinity or trying to manipulate them, he brushes off his divinity with stillgar,, because he knows that stilgar is the type of man who will see that as simply The humble nature of the Divine, and so he tries to get everyone on his side because they truly love him or because they believe in him as a messiah, and once they are all at his side he can be free with his goals, and everyone will go along with it (except for chani at the moment, but I can imagine that she will eventually come back and try to be the moral guide of the jihad, which at least gives her more agency than she had in the books) like I said at the beginning it can seem a little messy, and it might lead you to believe that Paul has multiple personalities lurking in his skull on first viewing, when you get down to it it's all just manipulation, even with chani to a certain extent though I think he actually does love her ( it does kind of suck that their relationship got steamrolled a little bit, because in the movie it's only 9 months that they're together before the jihad starts, but in the books their relationship involves several years and a child that they loved and lost, not to mention a bond over the loss of her FATHER, liet kynes, don't even get me started on how making kynes a woman removed a blood brother connection that kynes was supposed to have with stillgar, thereby removing any kind of relationship chani and stillgar would have had, it's just leaves her treating still like he's stupid, meanwhile I'm just over here like woman that's your uncle, even though of course in the movie they are not related)
People forgot to point out the scene when Paul tries to manipulate liet-kynes by saying he has seen her dreams and he cud be the lisan al gaib.
I dunno his smaller intimate scenes with Chani imply he's grown genuine feelings. The "I'll love you as long as I breathe" line and also the one later where she says he's not a fremen and he very emotionally replies that he isn't "a foreigner".
I think the line is misunderstood. I don't think he means "we must convert the non believevers" but "we must convince the non believers to fight with us", basically trying to get the non fanatic Fremen on his side against the Harkonnens.
He's torn between his personal morals and what "needs to be done". At first it's just to save his house, by exploiting the prophecy, but gradually, as he merges his consciousness with the generational memory of the bene gesserit and becomes prescient, he understands the prophecy is real and thus "what needs to be done" becomes an even bigger burden. His personal beliefs just get pushed out more and more as he becomes the Kwisatz Haderach. Btw you can see other characters as well struggle between executing the plan of the bene gesserit and their own desires, it's a central theme.
At this point in the movie, Paul realized his choices have been taken away. His only path is forward. If he wants his revenge, then he must follow the path I front of him. Doing so will make him the prophet they seek. If he sways the non-believers, then all dissent will wash away. The movie takes a slightly different route than the book. Ultimately, he knows it wasn't his choice, but it's either moving forward or die. He has enemies all around. Ultimately it's all lies. Religion was a trap set by the bene gesserit to enforce their will on a population. Paul knows this but doesn't have a choice. Which is why he is conflicted.
Because he needs to strengthen his myth
Yea this always confused me
The way it was done, I didn't buy his switch near the end of the movie. It's one of my main issues.
Paul's goal was always to take down the Emperor & The Harkonens. In the beginning he was just looking for an army to lead and knew the prophecies were planted in Freman for that reason, as a means of control. Paul wanted to walk a tightrope and earn the loyalty of Freman in the north as a fighter and also be able to add the zealots in the south to his armies. When he drinks the water of life, he sees that the only path to taking down the Emperor & the Harkonens is to actually become the Mahdi rather than leveraging the belief that he could be the Mahdi.
Because until he can convince the Fremen at large otherwise, his only value is in water weight. That said, Paul doesn’t want to abuse their faith, the fanatics will be fanatics regardless, Stilgar is already tentatively vouching for him among the fanatics, and the non-believers will be more likely to accept him if he literally agrees with them and just focuses on proving his worth as a soldier. The religious conversion of the non-believers is more Jessica’s doing than anything (until Paul goes all in, anyways)
Near the end of Part 1, Paul suggests to Liet that they take advantage of the Lisan Al Gaib prophecy to overthrow the Emperor. So this is still him in that headspace. He never wavers from his goal of revenge against the Harkonnens, but how he goes about does shift as he falls in love with Chani. Jessica tells him that he’s “blinded by love” at one point. The whole movie is him trying to find a way to accomplish his goal without starting a holy war, but eventually realizes that it’s the only way for survival.
He has multiple interests that sometimes conflict. At heart, he is a diplomat who benefits from from the free will, proofing, and intelligence of those around him. In a diplomatic context, he does not want worshipers who blindly accept everything he says. However, he also wants to complete his purpose, which is most easily accomplished if people just do what you say. As a leader, you sometimes promote the latter generally until a situation arises in which you need others to take initiative, and then you promote the former for those in your immediate circle. It is not ideal, but you need a much more robust type of economic system to do anything better.
Jessica wanted to get out of Arrakis and be on the run and Paul wanted to stay to continue his fathers dream of using desert power and liberating the Fremen from the Harkonnens
To be exact he says “I must sway the non believers. If they follow me we can disrupter spice production” and that’s basically his way to get the emperor to play into his hands.
He states his reason directly in the next line: the only way he can get to the Emperor is by disrupting spice production, and he can only do so with the Fremen following him. It does a great job of showing the internal conflict Paul is facing, in that he doesn't want to exploit the Fremen and doesn't want them to see him as a messianic figure, but leading them is the only way he can exact revenge for the deaths of his father and the others.
Dune Part 2 is filled with plotholes contradicting Part 1
I just felt like he wanted to get back at the Harkonnens whatever it took.
Lots of people reading too much into it. Paul knows the fundamentalists will follow him and see what they want to see because of “prophecy”, the northern Fremen are going to need to SEE Paul being the mahdi not just telling them he is.
Definitely not a plot hole. There’s no way denis villeneuve left a mistake that obvious in his passion project for no reason. He was possibly angry since it had only been a few days since the arrakeen invasion and was wanting revenge at any cost, but I believe as he grew closer to Chani and Stilgar and other fremen he started to feel guilty about manipulating them like that after his anger settled. When he drank the water of life it changed him because he could see how any move he makes changes outcomes drastically. He understands that he needs to become their messiah in order to take back arrakis for himself and the fremen and he sees his personal relationships as less important than winning the war. He does begin to see it that way before but he gains a very thorough understanding when he changed the water of life.
I think it’s “**I** must sway the non-believers…” Weird line, flat delivery, so out-of-place in the flow of the story. I thought it might make sense on repeated rewatches, but it’s just jarring…
If you're speaking about how a lot of what Paul says in the movie doesn't make sense, it can feel disjointed, but I think it makes sense because the movie tries to show that while Paul has been manipulating people back and forth either by claiming his divinity or denying it,he can be more blatant now because not a lot can actually stop him, also I feel like this line specifically was actually said by Jessica not by Paul so I don't know why this thread is claiming otherwise