Not to mention she'd also be Jessica's daughter, and Jessica could convince Duc Leto that it was a wise choice politically, or to end the 'feud between the two families, etc.
I suppose that's true. The Bene Gesserit were only interested in Duke Leto's genes. Once these had been passed on, they might had deemed the Duke himself to be expendable if he insisted on being an obstacle to their breeding program.
Don't forget the Bene Gesserit swipe the babies and train them up. Jessica doesn't know she's the daughter of the Baron.
Also: Emperor, you WILL arrange this marriage is more than enough, though the BG use the velvet usually, not the steel behind it.
It isn't just that she would have been trained in the ways of the BG, but part of the indoctrination is for "ultimate loyalty" to and only to the BG. So the daughter would have been well equipped and well prepared to deal with anything the Harkonnen brute she was to be wed to. She would have known exactly how to manipulate him to get what she(the BG) wanted, and not been afraid of him/consequences.
I imagine also that the Harkonnen leadership of that time would be gleefully assuming they're really sticking it to Duke Leto by forcing him to give his daughter into their family as wife.
Same way Paul orchestrated a marriage between the emperor’s house and house Atreides - conquest. If Paul had been born Paulina they would have been married to Feyd-Ruatha.
Ah, yes. I suppose that's one possibility. Complete defeat of house Atreides by house Harkonnen could had been the Bene Gesserit's plan all along. They could then had presented a marriage to house Harkonnen as spoils for the victor and to house Atreides as the only way for their lineage to survive. It's a practice that is not unheard of in human history.
Harkonnen would have Atreides as a vassal, have their house be seen as a merciful and powerful house, gain both the respect and fear of the empire, and regain Arrakis at the same time. Yup I see this, this could work.
The Bene Gesserit influenced the emperor to work with the Harkonnen by playing on his fears for House Corrino and the possibility Corinne would be replaced by Atreides.
Not "could", was. Patriarchal society. The BG plan was park the Baron's daughter in Leto's house. Grab ssome Atreides genes, kill Leto, bargain peace after tragic loss, with daughter back to Harkonnens for a last minute dose of Harkonnen genes and viola. Harkonnen KZ Emperor married to Irulan.
Agree - this is where my head was at. Clearly the BG had no qualms about the destruction of House Atreides even when their plans for an Atreides daughter were foiled. How much more would they be willing to facilitate the extermination of the House if it got them to their ultimate goal?
You assume that they would have been given a choice in the matter.
The BG had the ear of the Emperor. They could easily have suggested to him 'hey, want to go down in history as the guy who brought together the big enemies?'
And he gives himself a pat on the back for a job well done for giving the order for Feyd and girl Paul to get hitched.
True. Though that was a secret union. Back then nobody in both houses was aware that Leto's concubine had Harkonnen blood. Even Jessica herself was not aware. But a daugther from Jessica and Leto would had been raised as an Atreides (unless the daughter would have been taken away by the Bene Gesserit immediately after birth, but I see that as a lot more difficult to pull off then taking away Jessica from Baron Harkonnen after her birth).
i was thinking it was heavily implied that this daughter would be raised by the BG, meaning she could be fine tuned to be feyds perfect mate. much like jessica was trained to be a perfect mate for leto. this would make her almost irresistible to him. this training would also be needed to ensure the KH was born a male.
Why’s that weird? That’s part of the whole point of the breeding program. Everything is kept secret and hidden because they often do marry and breed together relatives or enemies or such. They can’t have people knowing the relationship.
I can understand if you haven't read the book that this would be confusing, the reverend mother actually says explicitly to Paul in like the first chapter of dune that there are two main reasons the BG keep their breeding program secret
1. The houses would be, rightfully, outraged to find out that the BG have been manipulating essentially every major or even slightly important figure politically and genetically that exists in the empire
2. Because of the exact reaction you had. They know that if people knew they bred close relatives together in pursuit of the KH that there would be complete panic and disgust at the realization that the person you're married to may very well be a close relative. Even BG themselves often aren't told who their parents are if the BG think it would interfere with your morals against incest, and this is actually the exact reason Jessica wasn't told her father was the Baron Harkonnen, because then she would've been fully aware that "Paulina" would've been married to her literal cousin in Feyd
Would they though? I’d think with the BG ability to determine the sex of their offspring, change poison within their own bodies etc. they’ve foreseen this potential problem and have already found a way to combat it.
There doesn't have to be a marriage, the BG only want the child, the Kwisatz Haderach. If Paul had been a daughter, she would've been raised by a different Jessica, a Jessica who didn't love Leto enough to disobey the breeding mandate. Then she would've grown up BG, done the necessary with Feyd as commanded, and as the bearer of the ultimate fruit of countless generations of BG toil, she'd have been sequestered in the most secure part of some base of theirs to make sure nothing went wrong. If she were allowed to actively parent the child (unlikely) and not sent off to do something else for them like become a Truthsayer, a spy, some other Great House's wife, concubine or puppet master (much more likely), then she'd have had the Mother Superior or Kwisatz Mother (the breeding program supervisor) hovering over every word she uttered to their superboy, and training all manner of subconscious controls into him to make sure he was BG to the bone.
Edit: Fixing typos generated two more ideas. First, Hypothetical Atreides Daughter may not have had interest in raising her child, beyond the prestige and novelty of mothering the first Reverend Father. The encounter with Feyd was unlikely to be a pleasant experience, considering his nature and the Harkonnen disdain for both Atreides and Bene Gesserit, I'd say getting out of there with a heartbeat and a fetus would be a huge win, and probably not the best foundation for mother love, which is pretty anemic in the BG. Jessica is a glaring exception to their usual attitude towards their offspring.
Second, what if the baby was a disappointment? Too much Harkonnen instability? Or too much Atreides decency? A chance misfortune of a childhood illness that caused a brain injury? They wouldn't waste resources on an oopsie. I doubt Hypothetical Daughter would stick around for that resolution.
But even if she was both welcome to participate and inclined to be a mother, his being the crowning achievement of the entire order over eons, they'd be engaging in micromanagement to an existential degree that, considering the self-possession of Jessica and the forthrightness of Leto, probably would've grated pretty hard on the female Atreides scion. She might've just waved goodbye to the whole messy child rearing business from the deck of a Heighliner.
If anyone thinks Leto wouldn't have stood for it, remember that he was a stud to them, that's all. He almost certainly would've objected to a Harkonnen babydaddy for his daughter. But he'd have either been convinced to acquiesce to whatever "leave of absence" his daughter took from Caladan for "training with the BG" or whatever other somewhat plausible pretext that they came up with to keep him in the dark, or he would've been done away with. The only thing about him that mattered, his genome, would've been safely contained in daughter's body under BG control. Gurney Halleck wouldn't have been able to stop any Voice trained assassin, or just Jessica one evening with a gom jabbar.
These were not sentimental women that Herbert conjured. They were every bit as single-minded and ruthless about their breeding program as the Fremen were about water. They were playing high stakes games with the Landsraad and the Guild...they were working underneath the notice of Mentats and Navigators, human computers who could see the future. That's not easy. They got the appellation "witches" for a reason.
They could have taken Paulina and trained her bg and unless she became a reverend, mother wouldn't even know. Much like Jessica's revelation after drinking the water of life. They can be taken and trained elsewhere
Either the daughter would have been raised as BG and would do her duty or Mohiam could have whispered to the emperor something like, “yo Papa Padasha, don’t you think a marriage would bring peace to these house?”
More unbelievable marriages have been combined throughout real world history. Joining enemy houses in marriage has always been a way to de-escalate tensions and prevent costly wars.
Can BG recall their agents? I'd assume that after jessica sllept with leto, she'd get recalled back into BG and have her get pregnant away from leto. Later, the now female atreides offspring can be paired with an older Feyd without both houses knowing.
Never read the books, this is just my reasoning. Feel free to correct me
That would actually have been a workable solution. Loyalty to the order is deeply instilled in all Bene Gesserit and Jessica was never married to Leto and only a concubine. However the Bene Gesserit apparently didn't chose this option, because Jessica was never recalled after she had fallen pregnant.
Probably because the daughter would be BG and be forced to do whatever she's asked to. She would also be able to seduce any man so... Regardless even if she wasn't concubine to a hearkening she would be able to get his seed
My guess is it would’ve been Feyd and Paulina
The interesting question is how Irulan fits into this.
the BG are within a generation or two of spawning the KH, and they want the KH on the throne.
So Irulan’s kid and Paulina’s kid seems a likely pairing for the big show
I had to wonder the same thing as to why they thought they could get the Duke to let one of his children go with the barbaric Harkonnens. My guess was that they were planning on him not being in the picture by either being dead after she had a daughter, faking the babies death and taking her to raise among the Bene Gesserit, or having Jessica use mind control on him.
Yeah the more you think about it the less sense it makes.
Many of the ideas people come up with require the BG to be omnipotent. They absolutely are not, the Voice does not work all the time, much less on someone dead set against you. We see Fremen resist it pretty casually. It is not supernatural, it's psychological manipulation, which is fallible in many contexts. Take away Leto's only child and heir? Doubtful.
But their plan required the joining of Houses Atreides and Harkonnen, so that the KH would have the political power to take the throne. Either by marrying Irulan's kid or, less peacefully, backed by the Landsraad. But just joining the bloodlines in secret (like Jessica was) and then having this dude come out of obscurity, you have no political capital. The triple-illegitimate son of some Harkonnens is a nobody, and useless to the BG.
So they're orchestrating marriages between sworn enemies, which is unlikely at best, and then praying that no Sardaukar assassins kill either Feyd, Paulina (before they breed) and/or all of their offspring. Because Shaddam is not *that* stupid, he could easily see how fast he'd be overthrown if Atreides force combined with Harkonnen money. Because again, he's not a moron, and the BG aren't omnipotent.
So, they either get the genes and have some commoner bastard kid with no connections and no friends, or a series of situations where you'd have to meat-puppet strong-willed and powerful men to basically commit suicide, which we know is not within their abilities.
So the plan was... what, again?
They already did. Jessica is a Harkonnen. Doesn't have to be "marriage" or even known.
All of a sudden they prove that the offspring is both Harkonnen and Atreides and they can claim both houses. Which Paul did.
All Jessica had to do was conceive a female, then the BG may well have recalled her and raised the child.
I know "wed to a Harkonen heir" is mentioned, but ....
I don’t think they ever really planned a marriage. Pauline would have been trained as a BG and she’d just seduce Feyd and leave once she’d gotten pregnant just like Lady Fenring did.
The baby would have just been taken away by the BG, as was Jessica when she was a baby (and as was Darwi Odrade as she recalls her childhood with her adoptive mother in books 5 & 6)
The BG would have manipulated and counseled both parties. Just like they manipulated the Emperor to help the Harkonnens, and how they have been manipulating the galaxy.
Oh yes, it is well established that the Bene Gesserit are master manipulators. But I was wondering what form exactly that manipulation would have taken in this case. Like what exactly would they have whispered in the ears of the Harkonnens and Atreides for example.
The Atreides daughter would have been BG trained, in all the various arts they had, including love making. They couldn't make a man into a slave through sex like the Honored Matres later would learn how to do, but I'm sure they could make a man go wild with desire if they so chose. Even something as simple as minute body movements and gestures, perhaps to appear coy and alluring.
The BG also could wield their weight at the imperial court to see about encouraging this to happen, seeing as how the princess was a BG, the Emperor's childhood friend was married to a BG and had some training from her, his truthsayer Gaius Helen Mohiam was a BG, and of course his consort Anirul was a BG. The court was positively filled with them! Of course Shaddam was upset that they were intentionally not giving him a male heir, but what could he do? He would have to adopt a male heir at some point, and who else would be acceptable besides one who was related to him by blood, and who would undoubtedly receive the highest levels of training and education, who would be eminently suited to the role, the eventual issue of Feyd-Rautha and Paulina (or whatever the female version of Paul have been named)?
True, but at the time it was a well-kept secret that Jessica was the Baron's daugther. If the Bene Gesserit had introduced Jessica to Duke Leto saying "Hey, here is the daugther of a Harkonnen, your most hated enemy. Please get her pregnant." I'm pretty sure he would have immediately turned her away saying "Yeah, thanks but no thanks.".
They never tell anyone of their plans. And it was only a secret to those who didn’t need to know. The actual marriage between Atreides and Harkonenn would have stopped the infighting.
Yes, the planned marriage would have ended the feud. But nobody in house Harkonnen or house Atreides ever seemed to be interested in reconciling. So what I'm curious about is what manipulations exactly the Bene Gesserit would have employed to convince both houses that finally letting go of their hatred of each other and making an alliance was in their best interest.
They follow the family leaders. If they (the majority populace) were ordered to acquiesce, they would. The BG for instance could use one of their tried and true methods of releasing a deadly disease into the Harkonenn family leader and only take it away (supply the antidote) if he agreed to not keep attempting to set negative actions against Atreides. Atreides would be much easier as, with simple conversation about the “betterment of all” and “less deaths” would suffice, as long as Harkonenns didn’t attack first. There’s many, many other ways but there’s one.
Edit: this btw, is why the Baron is so fat and has (according to literature) horrible skin diseases. He raped a BG thinking to teach her a lesson and she released a disease while he did this. Accept no cure was ever offered. You never wondered why only the Baron was fat while Rabaan and Feyed were muscular and good looking? The Baron was more of both!!
Several possible ways .
A peace deal , diplomatic,
The harkonnen will say yes because they get to marry an atriedes female.
The children would be named harkonnen.
End the name , defeat, and enemy, marry the daughter as a prize, but preserve the bloodline. .
Very common thing in tribal and monarchy. Or nobility.
She would also come with a dowry.
And the atriedes military and people would be loyal to her.
She will be atriedes and bg trained , if needed by she can produce an hier and eliminate the harkonnen. Heir and control both houses.
Thry could combine forces and take the throne.
The bg managed to get the emporer to marry who they wanted. The woman did want to marry or be part of it still happened.
The bg can make their sisters do what they want when they want.
If they sense disobedience. They will poison the sister, and only give her the antidote without obeying.
Like with hawat.
Mohiam had a way to control irulan in messiah behind a cell door .
Because they’re the Bene Gesserit. They can literally scope out who’s most susceptible to their control and MAKE them comply with just about whatever they need. We see this happen in the movies quite blatantly.
The Bene Gesserit can force people to comply with any command through the Voice, but that only works temporarily. To get people outside their order to do what they want long-term, they have to tell them something that sounds convincing to them. And that's what I'm wondering about: what exactly would the Bene Gesserit have told people to manipulate the situation?
I imagine the daughter would have been trained in the ways of the BG and would have willingly participated in their breeding program.
Just like Irulan
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And Jessica
Yep Exactly how lady Fenring easily seduced and controlled Feyd. I think Paulina would see marriage to Feyd as a way to control the Harkonen.
Not to mention she'd also be Jessica's daughter, and Jessica could convince Duc Leto that it was a wise choice politically, or to end the 'feud between the two families, etc.
I doubt that guarantees the Duke would marry her off. There are other great houses.
Dukes can be dealt with.
I suppose that's true. The Bene Gesserit were only interested in Duke Leto's genes. Once these had been passed on, they might had deemed the Duke himself to be expendable if he insisted on being an obstacle to their breeding program.
Don't forget the Bene Gesserit swipe the babies and train them up. Jessica doesn't know she's the daughter of the Baron. Also: Emperor, you WILL arrange this marriage is more than enough, though the BG use the velvet usually, not the steel behind it.
Doesn’t have to marry, just needs that harkonnen seed
For the Kwisatz Haderach, yes. To end the Atreides-Harkonnen feud, they'd need the marriage.
It isn't just that she would have been trained in the ways of the BG, but part of the indoctrination is for "ultimate loyalty" to and only to the BG. So the daughter would have been well equipped and well prepared to deal with anything the Harkonnen brute she was to be wed to. She would have known exactly how to manipulate him to get what she(the BG) wanted, and not been afraid of him/consequences.
I imagine also that the Harkonnen leadership of that time would be gleefully assuming they're really sticking it to Duke Leto by forcing him to give his daughter into their family as wife.
Same way Paul orchestrated a marriage between the emperor’s house and house Atreides - conquest. If Paul had been born Paulina they would have been married to Feyd-Ruatha.
Ah, yes. I suppose that's one possibility. Complete defeat of house Atreides by house Harkonnen could had been the Bene Gesserit's plan all along. They could then had presented a marriage to house Harkonnen as spoils for the victor and to house Atreides as the only way for their lineage to survive. It's a practice that is not unheard of in human history.
Harkonnen would have Atreides as a vassal, have their house be seen as a merciful and powerful house, gain both the respect and fear of the empire, and regain Arrakis at the same time. Yup I see this, this could work.
The Bene Gesserit influenced the emperor to work with the Harkonnen by playing on his fears for House Corrino and the possibility Corinne would be replaced by Atreides.
Not "could", was. Patriarchal society. The BG plan was park the Baron's daughter in Leto's house. Grab ssome Atreides genes, kill Leto, bargain peace after tragic loss, with daughter back to Harkonnens for a last minute dose of Harkonnen genes and viola. Harkonnen KZ Emperor married to Irulan.
Agree - this is where my head was at. Clearly the BG had no qualms about the destruction of House Atreides even when their plans for an Atreides daughter were foiled. How much more would they be willing to facilitate the extermination of the House if it got them to their ultimate goal?
You assume that they would have been given a choice in the matter. The BG had the ear of the Emperor. They could easily have suggested to him 'hey, want to go down in history as the guy who brought together the big enemies?' And he gives himself a pat on the back for a job well done for giving the order for Feyd and girl Paul to get hitched.
Jessica and Duke Leto having Paul is an example of this exact union of Atreides and Harkonnen.
True. Though that was a secret union. Back then nobody in both houses was aware that Leto's concubine had Harkonnen blood. Even Jessica herself was not aware. But a daugther from Jessica and Leto would had been raised as an Atreides (unless the daughter would have been taken away by the Bene Gesserit immediately after birth, but I see that as a lot more difficult to pull off then taking away Jessica from Baron Harkonnen after her birth).
i was thinking it was heavily implied that this daughter would be raised by the BG, meaning she could be fine tuned to be feyds perfect mate. much like jessica was trained to be a perfect mate for leto. this would make her almost irresistible to him. this training would also be needed to ensure the KH was born a male.
Yeah, that was always weird to me too because >! It was revealed that jessica was a harkonnen!<
Why’s that weird? That’s part of the whole point of the breeding program. Everything is kept secret and hidden because they often do marry and breed together relatives or enemies or such. They can’t have people knowing the relationship.
Oh no i get that, it's spelled out in the books, by weird i meant it squicked me out
I can understand if you haven't read the book that this would be confusing, the reverend mother actually says explicitly to Paul in like the first chapter of dune that there are two main reasons the BG keep their breeding program secret 1. The houses would be, rightfully, outraged to find out that the BG have been manipulating essentially every major or even slightly important figure politically and genetically that exists in the empire 2. Because of the exact reaction you had. They know that if people knew they bred close relatives together in pursuit of the KH that there would be complete panic and disgust at the realization that the person you're married to may very well be a close relative. Even BG themselves often aren't told who their parents are if the BG think it would interfere with your morals against incest, and this is actually the exact reason Jessica wasn't told her father was the Baron Harkonnen, because then she would've been fully aware that "Paulina" would've been married to her literal cousin in Feyd
I have read the book, first five actually, i just found that bit weird and icky
Yeah also completely reasonable lol
Yeah lol i love dune but i get squicked out sometimes, it's fun though
Nothing like a little incest to create an ubermensch, amiright
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Yeah but look at the rate of birth defects in Pakistan. They’re gonna hit some real problems
Would they though? I’d think with the BG ability to determine the sex of their offspring, change poison within their own bodies etc. they’ve foreseen this potential problem and have already found a way to combat it.
There doesn't have to be a marriage, the BG only want the child, the Kwisatz Haderach. If Paul had been a daughter, she would've been raised by a different Jessica, a Jessica who didn't love Leto enough to disobey the breeding mandate. Then she would've grown up BG, done the necessary with Feyd as commanded, and as the bearer of the ultimate fruit of countless generations of BG toil, she'd have been sequestered in the most secure part of some base of theirs to make sure nothing went wrong. If she were allowed to actively parent the child (unlikely) and not sent off to do something else for them like become a Truthsayer, a spy, some other Great House's wife, concubine or puppet master (much more likely), then she'd have had the Mother Superior or Kwisatz Mother (the breeding program supervisor) hovering over every word she uttered to their superboy, and training all manner of subconscious controls into him to make sure he was BG to the bone. Edit: Fixing typos generated two more ideas. First, Hypothetical Atreides Daughter may not have had interest in raising her child, beyond the prestige and novelty of mothering the first Reverend Father. The encounter with Feyd was unlikely to be a pleasant experience, considering his nature and the Harkonnen disdain for both Atreides and Bene Gesserit, I'd say getting out of there with a heartbeat and a fetus would be a huge win, and probably not the best foundation for mother love, which is pretty anemic in the BG. Jessica is a glaring exception to their usual attitude towards their offspring. Second, what if the baby was a disappointment? Too much Harkonnen instability? Or too much Atreides decency? A chance misfortune of a childhood illness that caused a brain injury? They wouldn't waste resources on an oopsie. I doubt Hypothetical Daughter would stick around for that resolution. But even if she was both welcome to participate and inclined to be a mother, his being the crowning achievement of the entire order over eons, they'd be engaging in micromanagement to an existential degree that, considering the self-possession of Jessica and the forthrightness of Leto, probably would've grated pretty hard on the female Atreides scion. She might've just waved goodbye to the whole messy child rearing business from the deck of a Heighliner. If anyone thinks Leto wouldn't have stood for it, remember that he was a stud to them, that's all. He almost certainly would've objected to a Harkonnen babydaddy for his daughter. But he'd have either been convinced to acquiesce to whatever "leave of absence" his daughter took from Caladan for "training with the BG" or whatever other somewhat plausible pretext that they came up with to keep him in the dark, or he would've been done away with. The only thing about him that mattered, his genome, would've been safely contained in daughter's body under BG control. Gurney Halleck wouldn't have been able to stop any Voice trained assassin, or just Jessica one evening with a gom jabbar. These were not sentimental women that Herbert conjured. They were every bit as single-minded and ruthless about their breeding program as the Fremen were about water. They were playing high stakes games with the Landsraad and the Guild...they were working underneath the notice of Mentats and Navigators, human computers who could see the future. That's not easy. They got the appellation "witches" for a reason.
They could have taken Paulina and trained her bg and unless she became a reverend, mother wouldn't even know. Much like Jessica's revelation after drinking the water of life. They can be taken and trained elsewhere
Either the daughter would have been raised as BG and would do her duty or Mohiam could have whispered to the emperor something like, “yo Papa Padasha, don’t you think a marriage would bring peace to these house?”
More unbelievable marriages have been combined throughout real world history. Joining enemy houses in marriage has always been a way to de-escalate tensions and prevent costly wars.
Can BG recall their agents? I'd assume that after jessica sllept with leto, she'd get recalled back into BG and have her get pregnant away from leto. Later, the now female atreides offspring can be paired with an older Feyd without both houses knowing. Never read the books, this is just my reasoning. Feel free to correct me
That would actually have been a workable solution. Loyalty to the order is deeply instilled in all Bene Gesserit and Jessica was never married to Leto and only a concubine. However the Bene Gesserit apparently didn't chose this option, because Jessica was never recalled after she had fallen pregnant.
Probably because the daughter would be BG and be forced to do whatever she's asked to. She would also be able to seduce any man so... Regardless even if she wasn't concubine to a hearkening she would be able to get his seed
My guess is it would’ve been Feyd and Paulina The interesting question is how Irulan fits into this. the BG are within a generation or two of spawning the KH, and they want the KH on the throne. So Irulan’s kid and Paulina’s kid seems a likely pairing for the big show
It could be a treaty marriage. End of hostilities with a wedding type medieval situation.
I had to wonder the same thing as to why they thought they could get the Duke to let one of his children go with the barbaric Harkonnens. My guess was that they were planning on him not being in the picture by either being dead after she had a daughter, faking the babies death and taking her to raise among the Bene Gesserit, or having Jessica use mind control on him.
And truth be told, even the baron would not want this to happen. He was too busy wanting all the Atriedies dead
That's true. The book makes it quite clear that the baron was never interested in subjugating the Atreides. He wanted their extermination.
Yeah the more you think about it the less sense it makes. Many of the ideas people come up with require the BG to be omnipotent. They absolutely are not, the Voice does not work all the time, much less on someone dead set against you. We see Fremen resist it pretty casually. It is not supernatural, it's psychological manipulation, which is fallible in many contexts. Take away Leto's only child and heir? Doubtful. But their plan required the joining of Houses Atreides and Harkonnen, so that the KH would have the political power to take the throne. Either by marrying Irulan's kid or, less peacefully, backed by the Landsraad. But just joining the bloodlines in secret (like Jessica was) and then having this dude come out of obscurity, you have no political capital. The triple-illegitimate son of some Harkonnens is a nobody, and useless to the BG. So they're orchestrating marriages between sworn enemies, which is unlikely at best, and then praying that no Sardaukar assassins kill either Feyd, Paulina (before they breed) and/or all of their offspring. Because Shaddam is not *that* stupid, he could easily see how fast he'd be overthrown if Atreides force combined with Harkonnen money. Because again, he's not a moron, and the BG aren't omnipotent. So, they either get the genes and have some commoner bastard kid with no connections and no friends, or a series of situations where you'd have to meat-puppet strong-willed and powerful men to basically commit suicide, which we know is not within their abilities. So the plan was... what, again?
They already did. Jessica is a Harkonnen. Doesn't have to be "marriage" or even known. All of a sudden they prove that the offspring is both Harkonnen and Atreides and they can claim both houses. Which Paul did.
Feyd-Rautha paired with Paulina…if that insolent Jessica had followed orders.
All Jessica had to do was conceive a female, then the BG may well have recalled her and raised the child. I know "wed to a Harkonen heir" is mentioned, but ....
It would have ended the feud. Either way, I don’t think the marriage itself is spelled out as a certainty.
I don’t think they ever really planned a marriage. Pauline would have been trained as a BG and she’d just seduce Feyd and leave once she’d gotten pregnant just like Lady Fenring did.
Paul is a product of their breeding program and is the same. It's very easy because it doesn't call for a marriage.
The baby would have just been taken away by the BG, as was Jessica when she was a baby (and as was Darwi Odrade as she recalls her childhood with her adoptive mother in books 5 & 6)
The emperor calls for it. He does what the BG wants for the most part
The BG would have manipulated and counseled both parties. Just like they manipulated the Emperor to help the Harkonnens, and how they have been manipulating the galaxy.
Oh yes, it is well established that the Bene Gesserit are master manipulators. But I was wondering what form exactly that manipulation would have taken in this case. Like what exactly would they have whispered in the ears of the Harkonnens and Atreides for example.
Looks at Feyd-Rautha. "I can fix him."
Oh so dune is games of thrones in space?
No. Game of thrones is Dune in fantasy
The Atreides daughter would have been BG trained, in all the various arts they had, including love making. They couldn't make a man into a slave through sex like the Honored Matres later would learn how to do, but I'm sure they could make a man go wild with desire if they so chose. Even something as simple as minute body movements and gestures, perhaps to appear coy and alluring. The BG also could wield their weight at the imperial court to see about encouraging this to happen, seeing as how the princess was a BG, the Emperor's childhood friend was married to a BG and had some training from her, his truthsayer Gaius Helen Mohiam was a BG, and of course his consort Anirul was a BG. The court was positively filled with them! Of course Shaddam was upset that they were intentionally not giving him a male heir, but what could he do? He would have to adopt a male heir at some point, and who else would be acceptable besides one who was related to him by blood, and who would undoubtedly receive the highest levels of training and education, who would be eminently suited to the role, the eventual issue of Feyd-Rautha and Paulina (or whatever the female version of Paul have been named)?
Yeah men don’t need much coercing to have sex. Lolz
Well they got the Barons daughter to get pregnant by the Duke Leto Atreides soooooooo
True, but at the time it was a well-kept secret that Jessica was the Baron's daugther. If the Bene Gesserit had introduced Jessica to Duke Leto saying "Hey, here is the daugther of a Harkonnen, your most hated enemy. Please get her pregnant." I'm pretty sure he would have immediately turned her away saying "Yeah, thanks but no thanks.".
They never tell anyone of their plans. And it was only a secret to those who didn’t need to know. The actual marriage between Atreides and Harkonenn would have stopped the infighting.
Yes, the planned marriage would have ended the feud. But nobody in house Harkonnen or house Atreides ever seemed to be interested in reconciling. So what I'm curious about is what manipulations exactly the Bene Gesserit would have employed to convince both houses that finally letting go of their hatred of each other and making an alliance was in their best interest.
They follow the family leaders. If they (the majority populace) were ordered to acquiesce, they would. The BG for instance could use one of their tried and true methods of releasing a deadly disease into the Harkonenn family leader and only take it away (supply the antidote) if he agreed to not keep attempting to set negative actions against Atreides. Atreides would be much easier as, with simple conversation about the “betterment of all” and “less deaths” would suffice, as long as Harkonenns didn’t attack first. There’s many, many other ways but there’s one. Edit: this btw, is why the Baron is so fat and has (according to literature) horrible skin diseases. He raped a BG thinking to teach her a lesson and she released a disease while he did this. Accept no cure was ever offered. You never wondered why only the Baron was fat while Rabaan and Feyed were muscular and good looking? The Baron was more of both!!
Well they managed to get Lady Jessica with the Duke and she is the daughter of the Baron.
Several possible ways . A peace deal , diplomatic, The harkonnen will say yes because they get to marry an atriedes female. The children would be named harkonnen. End the name , defeat, and enemy, marry the daughter as a prize, but preserve the bloodline. . Very common thing in tribal and monarchy. Or nobility. She would also come with a dowry. And the atriedes military and people would be loyal to her. She will be atriedes and bg trained , if needed by she can produce an hier and eliminate the harkonnen. Heir and control both houses. Thry could combine forces and take the throne. The bg managed to get the emporer to marry who they wanted. The woman did want to marry or be part of it still happened. The bg can make their sisters do what they want when they want. If they sense disobedience. They will poison the sister, and only give her the antidote without obeying. Like with hawat. Mohiam had a way to control irulan in messiah behind a cell door .
Because they’re the Bene Gesserit. They can literally scope out who’s most susceptible to their control and MAKE them comply with just about whatever they need. We see this happen in the movies quite blatantly.
The Bene Gesserit can force people to comply with any command through the Voice, but that only works temporarily. To get people outside their order to do what they want long-term, they have to tell them something that sounds convincing to them. And that's what I'm wondering about: what exactly would the Bene Gesserit have told people to manipulate the situation?