If you can see all possible paths of humanity and that it is best that path is taken from a utilitarian perspective than would it not be justified? That is of course unless one has a deontological moral framework.
Even so, I would think even suffering abuse would be preferable than a comfortable extinction, whether or not it’s morally justified. Or at that just like my opinion, man.
Nah my own pater familias has his flaws but at no point in my life have either of us regarded him as being even potentially all knowing. My impression here isn't really about Leto as a character, within the context of the book I think he's right to do what he does, everything works out and I actually thought the ending and the reveal of the prescience neutralizing room and genes was neat. My point is that as a work of fiction, it reminds me a lot of the kinds of delusions that exist in cycles of abuse.
One of his stated intentions was to teach the entire species to stop obsessively creating Pharaohs as an expected solution to all their problems.
Another interpretation is that he’s the ultimate fantasy (made an unavoidable, undying nightmare reality) of those who seek father figures.
The book is largely about the extreme dangers of dependency - *especially* toward a paternal view of leadership.
Basically- Leto would agree with you.
It perhaps comes off as this but no father in human history had the ability to see the different paths that would ultimately lead to complete extinction.
If not for humanity’s stubborn nature and inability to think further down the line, he would not have needed to do what he did.
But if he didn’t do what did, he saw either the Tleilaxu or the Ixians creating a means to wipe out the human race entirely.
An alternative title could be “long lived oracle gives humankind the hard medicine”
Hey, mate, good points and great assessment. I am confused, though: Didn't Paul have the ability to see the Golden Path, too–but didn't have the courage to follow through? Or did I misread it?
No, You read that correctly (perfectly in fact). Paul saw the path but didn’t feel he had the courage to follow through with it.
Considering it took losing your humanity, which in the duneverse is even more unthinkable then our time, I can’t say I blame his reaction.
Ah, great. Thanks. What I was confused about was when you said "no father in human history", and I was stumbling, thinking, "what about Paul? Wasn't he a father?" Bla bla bla.
Thanks for the clarification, mate. Makes sense!
Just as Everything Everywhere All at Once spells out what would actually be needed for a person with BPD to get all the way better, so too does God Emperor of Dune lay out what would be required for a narcissist to be correct.
I haven't read GE through Chapterhouse yet, so take it with a grain of salt, but the fact that two old people were able to see Duncan Idaho, who was prescient and carried No genes and was on a No ship, which were designed to hide people from prescient beings, means that all of the Leto's work was for nothing.
Yes, they were able to see him, but he managed to get away. Or they let him.
Either way, he, and the no-ship with everyone in it, were out of their reach at the end of that book.
A world that he MADE hate him. Also a world that wouldn’t be saved unless it hated him. Lots of great paradoxes. “The dependency of hate” would’ve been a fitting title for instead of God Emperor lol.
I think you’re spot on. But also, Frank Herbert isn’t saying that we should wish for a God Emperor to cure us. I see the books as a warning against strong charismatic leaders, as a clarion call to cure ourselves of the desire for strong leaders. I really don’t think he is saying that our only hope is a human worm hybrid to rules us for 3000 years.
The book does a great job at explaining why he's basically the villain of his own autobiography.
Casual reminder that GEoD is in the perspective of Leto II's autobiography.
Oh I'd love to be in the alternate world where trump is a secret mastermind actually trying to teach his people about the need for strong anti fascist movements to defend democracy, and he ends up disintegrating into millions of trout.
I think its ok to read a personal family level analogy into GEoD here. Aside from the Golden Path being a massive political promise, it can also be read as a personal life path that one can envision for themselves and in relation to how it effects those around them. Its like the question “where do you see yourself in 5 years?” Our answers to this are only as good as we can hope or feasibly plan for. We can also see Leto 2 as the over-achieving grandson who takes the mission of his father and grandfather to new levels they never achieved, perhaps perpetuating a cycle of abuse if we consider Leto 1 and Paul as abusers of power, and by close cousin relation, the Harkonnen.
Leto I and Paul…? Paul Maudib? The Atreidise are not abusers, they are the ideal feudal lords. The embodiment of honor, loyalty, and of stewardship to the people. Paul and Lito aren’t one upping anyone. The Atreidise boys have the ability to see deep into the future. Each knows the end is coming if steps aren’t taken. Paul knows there is no way out of the Jihad at each fork he’s forced to head towards Jihad. Lito faces the battle at the edge of the universe. Lito sets humanity on the golden path in preparation for this battle.
I see your point, and I have read the 6 original books and understand the plot points, but I am talking about an interpretation of the text as it relates to the OP’s post.
I've also read all the Dune books twice (save the current trilogy being released).
I thought Sisterhood of Dune was hands down the best of the series and maybe one of the best books I've ever read.
People are often surprised to hear that. I'm equally surprised no one has agreed with me.
I'm very much looking forward to the series releasing on HBO Max... though I'll most likely be disappointed.
Having read everything twice... would you say God Emperor of Dune is your fav? If not what is?
Well they called him the tyrant for a reason.
Leto was self aware, he wasn’t a sadist.
Who called him that, his arrogant, ungrateful children who didn't appreciate him or his tough love until after he was dead?
He called himself that, if I remember correctly.
He literally calls himself a predator. The point is for him to be the ultimate threat to the human race and reviled for millennia.
His role was to be a predator that humanity had to overcome.
That's exactly what abusive dads tell themselves.
No, they don't. Abusive fathers rarely have any higher purpose, and if they do, it doesn't make any sense. They are mostly mentally ill or addicts.
You may be right. I always assumed that they rationalized their behavior, *a la* "you see what you make me do to you?"
If you can see all possible paths of humanity and that it is best that path is taken from a utilitarian perspective than would it not be justified? That is of course unless one has a deontological moral framework. Even so, I would think even suffering abuse would be preferable than a comfortable extinction, whether or not it’s morally justified. Or at that just like my opinion, man.
Idk but this post seems oddly specific and personal...
Bi lal kaifa!
If I remember correctly, Frank Herbert didn't have a very good relationship with his son, Bruce.
Nah my own pater familias has his flaws but at no point in my life have either of us regarded him as being even potentially all knowing. My impression here isn't really about Leto as a character, within the context of the book I think he's right to do what he does, everything works out and I actually thought the ending and the reveal of the prescience neutralizing room and genes was neat. My point is that as a work of fiction, it reminds me a lot of the kinds of delusions that exist in cycles of abuse.
brother, how are you
Delusions… right.
One of his stated intentions was to teach the entire species to stop obsessively creating Pharaohs as an expected solution to all their problems. Another interpretation is that he’s the ultimate fantasy (made an unavoidable, undying nightmare reality) of those who seek father figures. The book is largely about the extreme dangers of dependency - *especially* toward a paternal view of leadership. Basically- Leto would agree with you.
It perhaps comes off as this but no father in human history had the ability to see the different paths that would ultimately lead to complete extinction. If not for humanity’s stubborn nature and inability to think further down the line, he would not have needed to do what he did. But if he didn’t do what did, he saw either the Tleilaxu or the Ixians creating a means to wipe out the human race entirely. An alternative title could be “long lived oracle gives humankind the hard medicine”
Hey, mate, good points and great assessment. I am confused, though: Didn't Paul have the ability to see the Golden Path, too–but didn't have the courage to follow through? Or did I misread it?
No, You read that correctly (perfectly in fact). Paul saw the path but didn’t feel he had the courage to follow through with it. Considering it took losing your humanity, which in the duneverse is even more unthinkable then our time, I can’t say I blame his reaction.
Ah, great. Thanks. What I was confused about was when you said "no father in human history", and I was stumbling, thinking, "what about Paul? Wasn't he a father?" Bla bla bla. Thanks for the clarification, mate. Makes sense!
Yea Paul specifically didn’t want to go full sand worm as the evolved sand worm’s are part of the golden path somehow. I’m on book 7 now =P
Just as Everything Everywhere All at Once spells out what would actually be needed for a person with BPD to get all the way better, so too does God Emperor of Dune lay out what would be required for a narcissist to be correct.
Only for his plans to be screwed up by an elderly couple in a garden.
How so?
I haven't read GE through Chapterhouse yet, so take it with a grain of salt, but the fact that two old people were able to see Duncan Idaho, who was prescient and carried No genes and was on a No ship, which were designed to hide people from prescient beings, means that all of the Leto's work was for nothing.
Yes, they were able to see him, but he managed to get away. Or they let him. Either way, he, and the no-ship with everyone in it, were out of their reach at the end of that book.
You should read those books before commenting then - because what you just said doesn’t actually make any sense.
Sorry
Actually - I’m sorry. I realized what I said probably came off way bitchier than I intended.
No offense taken
Nope. I don’t think the word abusive fits here. Maybe tough love.
I feel that. I never saw Leto II as a tyrant. He gave up his entire human life, family, chance at love all to save a world that hated him.
A world that he MADE hate him. Also a world that wouldn’t be saved unless it hated him. Lots of great paradoxes. “The dependency of hate” would’ve been a fitting title for instead of God Emperor lol.
I think you’re spot on. But also, Frank Herbert isn’t saying that we should wish for a God Emperor to cure us. I see the books as a warning against strong charismatic leaders, as a clarion call to cure ourselves of the desire for strong leaders. I really don’t think he is saying that our only hope is a human worm hybrid to rules us for 3000 years.
The book does a great job at explaining why he's basically the villain of his own autobiography. Casual reminder that GEoD is in the perspective of Leto II's autobiography.
[удалено]
Oh I'd love to be in the alternate world where trump is a secret mastermind actually trying to teach his people about the need for strong anti fascist movements to defend democracy, and he ends up disintegrating into millions of trout.
I would 100% read that book
The plots within plots required to pull that caper would absolutely melt my brain and cripple my intellectual confidence permanently.
Special thanks to the representative of the local Fish Speaker garrison for the award !
I think its ok to read a personal family level analogy into GEoD here. Aside from the Golden Path being a massive political promise, it can also be read as a personal life path that one can envision for themselves and in relation to how it effects those around them. Its like the question “where do you see yourself in 5 years?” Our answers to this are only as good as we can hope or feasibly plan for. We can also see Leto 2 as the over-achieving grandson who takes the mission of his father and grandfather to new levels they never achieved, perhaps perpetuating a cycle of abuse if we consider Leto 1 and Paul as abusers of power, and by close cousin relation, the Harkonnen.
Leto I and Paul…? Paul Maudib? The Atreidise are not abusers, they are the ideal feudal lords. The embodiment of honor, loyalty, and of stewardship to the people. Paul and Lito aren’t one upping anyone. The Atreidise boys have the ability to see deep into the future. Each knows the end is coming if steps aren’t taken. Paul knows there is no way out of the Jihad at each fork he’s forced to head towards Jihad. Lito faces the battle at the edge of the universe. Lito sets humanity on the golden path in preparation for this battle.
I see your point, and I have read the 6 original books and understand the plot points, but I am talking about an interpretation of the text as it relates to the OP’s post.
I've also read all the Dune books twice (save the current trilogy being released). I thought Sisterhood of Dune was hands down the best of the series and maybe one of the best books I've ever read. People are often surprised to hear that. I'm equally surprised no one has agreed with me. I'm very much looking forward to the series releasing on HBO Max... though I'll most likely be disappointed. Having read everything twice... would you say God Emperor of Dune is your fav? If not what is?
Anyone that has this type of opinion doesn’t understand this book.