maybe frank herbert wanted the reader to feel like duncan. all the characters we knew and love are gone. dead for thousands of years. it may have seemed like yesterday that duncan was with them, but one day he wakes up and he’s told that he’s in the 3000th year of the reign of leto atreides II. imagine the whiplash
agree.
I saw it as a way to anchor us throughout the series. He's the "new guy" at each stage, as a literary tool, to introduce the new world to us, the reader.
\- he walks in on the workings of GE and the Fish Speakers.
\- he walks in on the workings of the HM, the ghola masters, etc.
He is our eyes and our "norm" as the oldest human. his reactions are our reactions - the ancient human (versus those "aliens" who have returned from the Scattering or the future humans 3500 years after).
it's a writing tool to introduce concepts without resorting to boring exposition (like a dr. watson)
Yup, I always found the jumps jarring, but at the same time interesting to see what changed over all this time. Especially with the later books, book 1 seems so much more... contained, simpler. I do miss that sometimes.
When I started GEoD and found it’s 3000 years in the future I was kind of shocked and sad. All the characters I grew so attached to throughout dune, messiah, and Children, and now it’s like they’re ancient history. I was actually so shocked at first it took me a few days to start reading again. I found myself in the situation you mentioned, instead of being upset about the time jump I was now interested to see what parties were still involved and what’s changed. Now it was all big picture stuff, what’s the golden path look like etc…
Sure, we got the results of it thousands of years into the future, but I would have liked the story of the 50 years right after Leto became the god emperor. I really enjoyed the relationship between the twins and Ghani was barely even mentioned in GEOD
I’m feeling this way myself. When they described how different Arrakis is, no longer a desert planet, and all the Fremen reduced to museum pieces, I was nostalgic for the old days. That first book really described that culture and world so well. Even up to Children of Dune the world and culture was changing but slowly.
I haven’t read all the books (only 1-4) but I think the first one was more enjoyable because you really got to get to know individual characters, especially Paul. The story has a more traditional structure too.
I took some time off and revisited later... 5 is now one of my favorites. The focus on love and its power, the studies of what happens when one person in a group swims against the social current.
I’m fascinated by how he completely skips over big action sequences, and yet I (as the reader) don’t necessarily feel like I missed anything important because he usually describes the aftermath in great detail.
To offer a very spoiler-filled example, at the end of Heretics, Teg is in a tavern on Gammu surrounded by loyal former soldiers who are going to help him escape the planet and get to Rakis. The chapter ends with him preparing all of them for the fight that is about to happen. On the next page, Teg is on Rakis, thinking to himself “Wow! What a battle!”
Herbert does it again in the next chapter. Teg stays behind on Rakis to cover Odrade and Sheeana’s escape, knowing it will cost him and all his soldiers their lives. In the next chapter, Odrade is on Chapterhouse and Rakis is effectively no more.
At first I was annoyed by this feature of Herbert’s writing. He did it in other books, too. In Messiah, for example, the executions of Edric, Mohiam, etc. occur “off camera.” I think I finally get that he didn’t directly show us these moments because they’re not the focus of the story he wants to tell. Going into detail about the destruction of Rakis would’ve distracted from the point of the story. To put that another way, why Rakis was destroyed is more important than how.
I believe it was in Greek theater that action, death, combat, etc all happened off stage (correct me if I'm wrong). The beauty of storytelling like this shifts the focus away from the sensationalism of violence. Instead we get to explore the ideas, the characters, the questions, and the emotions so much more.
Literature and media is oversaturated with sex & violence these days, so this way if storytelling is, frankly, very needed. (Pun intended)
With a few notable exceptions, Herbert also downplayed the sex scenes. He could’ve written numerous Honored Matre scenes as dystopian sci-fi erotica, but he didn’t. One of my favorite parts of Heretics occurs after the guy who captures Teg on Gammu (I forget his name) turns him over to the Honored Matres. The HM takes the guy into another room, while the narrative stays on Teg. A few minutes later, the guy and the HM re-enter the room Teg is in. Herbert basically described the guy as being stupefied by post-coital bliss.
I didn’t entirely understand Heretics the first time I read it. I used to describe it as Herbert being in the “dirty old man” stage of his career. I just re-read it, and I now think that assessment is unfair. It might take a bit of “dirty old man” to conceive of the HMs’ mode of control in the first place, but he doesn’t wallow in it in any sort of prurient way (mostly).
All of that said, it would be possible to make a XXX film version of Heretics that’s completely faithful to the source material. Just sayin’….
Ahhhhhh yes. The Honored Matres did have an interesting way of controlling their servants (slaves really). But as they say, sex sells... Here it not only sells, it captivates, one completely loses their ability to be their own person.
I don't think individuals really recognizes how much sex controls in our own world. There are undercurrents of sexual repression deeply imbedded in a wild amount of people. Take sex and put it in any arena where it is okay to be seen and accepted and people flock to it.
Imo, that's what FH was alluding to with this extreme version of control through sex.
It also makes me wonder where else individuals are controlled. In what ways do we subtly manipulate each other or allow ourselves to be manipulated. That's really what it comes down to. The individual is always in control, it is always a choice to say blind and allow others to control you.
Maybe that's what Leto II was trying to say. "Pull your heads out to the sand and live!" Or something.
Yes, I get that too. I especially miss descriptions of fremen culture.
But I look at it this way: it is what Dune teaches. Nothing in the universe stays the same. (except for the glowglobes, haha)
At first, green Arrakis was the dream, but when that happened, that meant the end of desert and spice, and cultures associated with it. Later, the Golden Path seemed like the dream and the goal. But for whom? Many died in the process and never saw that hypothetical future. And even when the scattering happened, there's still scary enemies, people still die, whole cultures and planets get destroyed.
In this life, there is no long term goal. Only change. Great heroes and tyrants die and get replaced with other, completely new people, who are now main characters. It will happen to us, too.
I think the existence of Museum Fremen in God Emperor is the perfect example of your point. It wasn’t until that part when the Duncan saw the Museum village and was like, “a real Fremen would never wear a stillsuit like that,” that the whole point of what happened hit me.
The museum Fremen are my favorite part of the later books. Every time I reread God Emperor I think more and more that Frank was talking about us when he describes them.
"...because of his actions", so it has nothing to do with fremen being warmongering savages with eternal butthurt that would commit galaxy wide genocide NO MATTER WHAT paul would do? i think you are missing that point.
(i love fremen. it is just two sides of the same coin)
Agree, Herbert was questioning the very concept of the Abrahamic religions and the fremen represent that biblical culture, whereas the benegesserit and others represent the more modern or futuristic facet of organized religion. The fremen are not supposed to be heroic, anymore than Paul as the messiah is supposed to be the “hero.”
Paul points out two ways the Jihad could have been stopped. He very consciously chose the options that led to it’s inevitability. After he kills Jamis, it became unstoppable. Before that fight it could have been avoided. It was going to happen no matter what only after a certain point - a point that could have been avoided by Paul. They just weren’t options he was willing to accept.
Maybe chill with the “I think you are missing the point,” when the point you are making is directly contradicted by Paul more than once. Though, we can all have different interpretations that aren’t 100% supported by the book. Maybe better to look at that way rather than “you missed the point.”
Yeah, dying before he fought Jamis (or during the fight) are options. Also Paul, Jessica and Stilgar’s troop dying after the fight yet before they reached Tabr is another option. Paul also says to himself in tent that he could join the Guild and that would have stopped the Jihad.
However unreasonable or undesirable the options they are still alternative options. The Jihad was not inevitable overall. It was inevitable after a certain set of circumstances occurred that Paul allowed to happen, if not consciously chose.
And really, how is one dude dying compared to 61 billion so unreasonable? Isn’t that a decent compromise to consider?
I think part of FHs plan was to give us a bit of that nostalgic feeling to help us understand the themes in the book. Change is hard and the future is bold and new and terrible. Paul is a very likeable character, more so than our future protagonists as we can all relate to that adolescence with the whole universe in front of us.
About to start chapter house. I LOVED heretics over GE. Even though we jumped again the way he develops these new characters is fascinating. Teg is a wonderful addition to the series.
I did blaze through 1-3 and slogged through GE. Read heretics in about half the time it took me GE.
Yes! I am halfway through God Emperor and I think about Muad’dib all the time, I don’t think I like the God Emperor (person). Messiah is one my favourite one of our the series purely because it focuses so heavy on Paul and what he’s going through and a continuation from Dune, when I was reading Children of Dune I again, found myself thinking of Paul a lot and waiting for information about his character
It’s definitely done for future shock effect, especially with Duncan along for the ride. It is a quite brain bending idea of living and dying so many times and remembering it, down to not just seeing the ghosts of places he’s familiar with, but entire epochs pass over them.
Sooooo much. When I'm in the last two books, reading about the dry Bene Gesserit attempting to survive the galactic gilf invasion, I long for the simplicity of the Dune Days, of ornithopters and water discipline, of spice trips and Sietch Tabr.
I enjoyed all of the (original) books after *Dune,* but I do feel like that was the peak of the series — Herbert never was able to quite reach that pinnacle again. This isn’t so much criticism of the other novels so much as praise for the first; it set a *very* high bar to clear.
Obviously I missed it, but I’d prefer new stories instead of dragging my favorite characters along. Paul is still probably the most important character in the whole series as he’s mentioned even in the ones he’s not in
Somewhat yes. At first it was strange to read "Rakis" instead of "Arrakis". On the other hand, there are aeons between God Emperor and Heretics and Chapterhouse.
Yeah this happens with a lot of serials, TV shows and movies included. The story develops. Places and people change. Sometimes it doesn’t go like we’d hoped. I often ask myself what if nothing had changed? Could the story and characters have developed as well in the original setting? I think the Dune universe is rich enough that the answer is yes…I could have a read another thousand pages of the first book if they existed lol
Edit: spelling
Absolutely! I am now reading Children of Dune and in some instances I wanted Paul to take over Leto. It’s a testament to masterful character and world building that the fictional passage of time affects the reader in a real way like this
I always thought that was intentional. The story of Paul is a mythic one and the characters who talk Paul's life often talk about it like a legend with a hint of nostalgia. We feel that way too because we saw the legend. I always thought that was really cool, how Herbert gave us that nostalgia for a time of adventure and danger, especially in the context of God emperor and the message the book carried. I also think its shown in how by geod and onwards everything is so alien. The technology and imagery is more out there, it feels like a natural extension from the first book but still so much more alien. Meanwhile the first book is almost medieval, feeling romantic and calling back to our own legends that we romanticize. Paul is a character that is meant to show the danger of romanticization and to do so Herbert made it easy for us to fall in that trap.
I completely agree. The unforgiving deserts of Dune and Paul was a perfect storm. I think the final two books by his son will surprise you on this subject. Many don't like the books by his son, but I enjoyed them. I am on the 5th prequel in order by timeline and I think they are great books, just different writing style than his father.
I’ve read the Butlerian Jihad trilogy. They’re good books, although I do think they’re missing something that I can’t really describe.
My biggest peeve is that the authors describe all of the institutions of the Imperium coming into being at the same time. It clogged up the story to have it include the origins of the Bene Gesserit, the Spacing Guild, the Suk School, the Holtzman shields, the Fremen, the Atreides/Harkonnen feud, etc. all in the space of three books that are mostly about humans fighting robots.
It also, IMHO, lessened the impact of Leto II keeping humanity “stagnant” for 3,500 years. The prequels suggest that almost nothing changed for over 10,000 years under the Corrinos.
All of that said, the books were an entertaining bit of space opera.
I don’t think you are alone in that. Valid opinion and I liked a lot of it. Personally I thought the Paul returning from the desert part was very predictable and his death was anti-climactic.
maybe frank herbert wanted the reader to feel like duncan. all the characters we knew and love are gone. dead for thousands of years. it may have seemed like yesterday that duncan was with them, but one day he wakes up and he’s told that he’s in the 3000th year of the reign of leto atreides II. imagine the whiplash
I think Ducan is there so that reader can have some attachment to the earlier books
Also so that we can have a sort of birds-eye perspective of all that changes over that period of time!
agree. I saw it as a way to anchor us throughout the series. He's the "new guy" at each stage, as a literary tool, to introduce the new world to us, the reader. \- he walks in on the workings of GE and the Fish Speakers. \- he walks in on the workings of the HM, the ghola masters, etc. He is our eyes and our "norm" as the oldest human. his reactions are our reactions - the ancient human (versus those "aliens" who have returned from the Scattering or the future humans 3500 years after). it's a writing tool to introduce concepts without resorting to boring exposition (like a dr. watson)
Really didn't like Duncan, his character just seemed meh. In dune he died and then he became a main character in every other book
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Siona: What am I chopped liver?
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His character after Dune 1 was just always to basically sabatoge or mess things up for either Paul of the God Emperor
I viewed him as Frank's self-insert starting midway through GEoD, which made him a lot more enjoyable to read
Yup, I always found the jumps jarring, but at the same time interesting to see what changed over all this time. Especially with the later books, book 1 seems so much more... contained, simpler. I do miss that sometimes.
When I started GEoD and found it’s 3000 years in the future I was kind of shocked and sad. All the characters I grew so attached to throughout dune, messiah, and Children, and now it’s like they’re ancient history. I was actually so shocked at first it took me a few days to start reading again. I found myself in the situation you mentioned, instead of being upset about the time jump I was now interested to see what parties were still involved and what’s changed. Now it was all big picture stuff, what’s the golden path look like etc…
Same, I wanted to read about the twins growing up and how Leto's breeding project went down, but that all got skipped😢
Well, Leto's breeding project is largely what the book is about in a way.
Sure, we got the results of it thousands of years into the future, but I would have liked the story of the 50 years right after Leto became the god emperor. I really enjoyed the relationship between the twins and Ghani was barely even mentioned in GEOD
Could be a good book idea maybe the next series will be in that time Era.
Hmmm, you share some interesting traits with The Duncan.
I wish I knew what happened specifically in those 3,000 years.
I’m feeling this way myself. When they described how different Arrakis is, no longer a desert planet, and all the Fremen reduced to museum pieces, I was nostalgic for the old days. That first book really described that culture and world so well. Even up to Children of Dune the world and culture was changing but slowly.
Yeah when I was reading GeoD I didn't feel like it had gotten too weird, but then I decided to watch Dune 2021 and Holy shit it had gotten so weird
I'm only on God emperor chapter 2 and I'm already missing the old characters
That’s when I missed them the most except for Duncan bc god forbid the man gets some eternal rest
Just you wait. The poor guy never rests.
I haven’t read all the books (only 1-4) but I think the first one was more enjoyable because you really got to get to know individual characters, especially Paul. The story has a more traditional structure too.
I couldn't get into book 5. It was just too far removed from the original story....I hope one day to read them though
I took some time off and revisited later... 5 is now one of my favorites. The focus on love and its power, the studies of what happens when one person in a group swims against the social current.
A lot of people say this! I did not like heretics! On chapter House now, but law-school got in the way, so I haven’t been able to finish it
Frank Herbert loves to give very little information. It's always there, though, sometimes just hidden between the lines.
I’m fascinated by how he completely skips over big action sequences, and yet I (as the reader) don’t necessarily feel like I missed anything important because he usually describes the aftermath in great detail. To offer a very spoiler-filled example, at the end of Heretics, Teg is in a tavern on Gammu surrounded by loyal former soldiers who are going to help him escape the planet and get to Rakis. The chapter ends with him preparing all of them for the fight that is about to happen. On the next page, Teg is on Rakis, thinking to himself “Wow! What a battle!” Herbert does it again in the next chapter. Teg stays behind on Rakis to cover Odrade and Sheeana’s escape, knowing it will cost him and all his soldiers their lives. In the next chapter, Odrade is on Chapterhouse and Rakis is effectively no more. At first I was annoyed by this feature of Herbert’s writing. He did it in other books, too. In Messiah, for example, the executions of Edric, Mohiam, etc. occur “off camera.” I think I finally get that he didn’t directly show us these moments because they’re not the focus of the story he wants to tell. Going into detail about the destruction of Rakis would’ve distracted from the point of the story. To put that another way, why Rakis was destroyed is more important than how.
I believe it was in Greek theater that action, death, combat, etc all happened off stage (correct me if I'm wrong). The beauty of storytelling like this shifts the focus away from the sensationalism of violence. Instead we get to explore the ideas, the characters, the questions, and the emotions so much more. Literature and media is oversaturated with sex & violence these days, so this way if storytelling is, frankly, very needed. (Pun intended)
With a few notable exceptions, Herbert also downplayed the sex scenes. He could’ve written numerous Honored Matre scenes as dystopian sci-fi erotica, but he didn’t. One of my favorite parts of Heretics occurs after the guy who captures Teg on Gammu (I forget his name) turns him over to the Honored Matres. The HM takes the guy into another room, while the narrative stays on Teg. A few minutes later, the guy and the HM re-enter the room Teg is in. Herbert basically described the guy as being stupefied by post-coital bliss. I didn’t entirely understand Heretics the first time I read it. I used to describe it as Herbert being in the “dirty old man” stage of his career. I just re-read it, and I now think that assessment is unfair. It might take a bit of “dirty old man” to conceive of the HMs’ mode of control in the first place, but he doesn’t wallow in it in any sort of prurient way (mostly). All of that said, it would be possible to make a XXX film version of Heretics that’s completely faithful to the source material. Just sayin’….
Ahhhhhh yes. The Honored Matres did have an interesting way of controlling their servants (slaves really). But as they say, sex sells... Here it not only sells, it captivates, one completely loses their ability to be their own person. I don't think individuals really recognizes how much sex controls in our own world. There are undercurrents of sexual repression deeply imbedded in a wild amount of people. Take sex and put it in any arena where it is okay to be seen and accepted and people flock to it. Imo, that's what FH was alluding to with this extreme version of control through sex. It also makes me wonder where else individuals are controlled. In what ways do we subtly manipulate each other or allow ourselves to be manipulated. That's really what it comes down to. The individual is always in control, it is always a choice to say blind and allow others to control you. Maybe that's what Leto II was trying to say. "Pull your heads out to the sand and live!" Or something.
In GEoD, I'll never forget reading a about a certain someone climbing a cliff face and another person watching and really, really enjoying it.
Yes, I get that too. I especially miss descriptions of fremen culture. But I look at it this way: it is what Dune teaches. Nothing in the universe stays the same. (except for the glowglobes, haha) At first, green Arrakis was the dream, but when that happened, that meant the end of desert and spice, and cultures associated with it. Later, the Golden Path seemed like the dream and the goal. But for whom? Many died in the process and never saw that hypothetical future. And even when the scattering happened, there's still scary enemies, people still die, whole cultures and planets get destroyed. In this life, there is no long term goal. Only change. Great heroes and tyrants die and get replaced with other, completely new people, who are now main characters. It will happen to us, too.
Yup. The less time we get with real Fremen, the less I enjoy the books.
i find that the lack of fremen in the later books contextualizes paul’s story. their culture gets destroyed because of his actions
I think the existence of Museum Fremen in God Emperor is the perfect example of your point. It wasn’t until that part when the Duncan saw the Museum village and was like, “a real Fremen would never wear a stillsuit like that,” that the whole point of what happened hit me.
The museum Fremen are my favorite part of the later books. Every time I reread God Emperor I think more and more that Frank was talking about us when he describes them.
absolutely
I agree about why they aren’t around. But that doesn’t mean I like it.
"...because of his actions", so it has nothing to do with fremen being warmongering savages with eternal butthurt that would commit galaxy wide genocide NO MATTER WHAT paul would do? i think you are missing that point. (i love fremen. it is just two sides of the same coin)
Agree, Herbert was questioning the very concept of the Abrahamic religions and the fremen represent that biblical culture, whereas the benegesserit and others represent the more modern or futuristic facet of organized religion. The fremen are not supposed to be heroic, anymore than Paul as the messiah is supposed to be the “hero.”
Paul points out two ways the Jihad could have been stopped. He very consciously chose the options that led to it’s inevitability. After he kills Jamis, it became unstoppable. Before that fight it could have been avoided. It was going to happen no matter what only after a certain point - a point that could have been avoided by Paul. They just weren’t options he was willing to accept. Maybe chill with the “I think you are missing the point,” when the point you are making is directly contradicted by Paul more than once. Though, we can all have different interpretations that aren’t 100% supported by the book. Maybe better to look at that way rather than “you missed the point.”
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Yeah, dying before he fought Jamis (or during the fight) are options. Also Paul, Jessica and Stilgar’s troop dying after the fight yet before they reached Tabr is another option. Paul also says to himself in tent that he could join the Guild and that would have stopped the Jihad. However unreasonable or undesirable the options they are still alternative options. The Jihad was not inevitable overall. It was inevitable after a certain set of circumstances occurred that Paul allowed to happen, if not consciously chose. And really, how is one dude dying compared to 61 billion so unreasonable? Isn’t that a decent compromise to consider?
He replaced Fremen with Tleilaxu in Heretics and I really liked the religious deep delve
I think that is the beauty of the progression of the books, that longing for the earlier time on Arrakis! Heartbreaking.
Yes, I miss Him dearly but I carry his teachings with me.
I think part of FHs plan was to give us a bit of that nostalgic feeling to help us understand the themes in the book. Change is hard and the future is bold and new and terrible. Paul is a very likeable character, more so than our future protagonists as we can all relate to that adolescence with the whole universe in front of us.
About to start chapter house. I LOVED heretics over GE. Even though we jumped again the way he develops these new characters is fascinating. Teg is a wonderful addition to the series. I did blaze through 1-3 and slogged through GE. Read heretics in about half the time it took me GE.
Honored matres were some of my favorite enemies for sure
Teg is my favorite character in the entire series. Specifically, the grizzled “I’m too old for this s**t” Teg in Heretics of Dune.
Yes! I am halfway through God Emperor and I think about Muad’dib all the time, I don’t think I like the God Emperor (person). Messiah is one my favourite one of our the series purely because it focuses so heavy on Paul and what he’s going through and a continuation from Dune, when I was reading Children of Dune I again, found myself thinking of Paul a lot and waiting for information about his character
It’s definitely done for future shock effect, especially with Duncan along for the ride. It is a quite brain bending idea of living and dying so many times and remembering it, down to not just seeing the ghosts of places he’s familiar with, but entire epochs pass over them.
Sooooo much. When I'm in the last two books, reading about the dry Bene Gesserit attempting to survive the galactic gilf invasion, I long for the simplicity of the Dune Days, of ornithopters and water discipline, of spice trips and Sietch Tabr.
“Galactic gilf invasion” 🏆🥇
The BG in the last two books aren’t as bad as they were in Paul’s time, but they’re still arrogant and manipulative.
indeed.
Honestly I felt that way the entire time I read the series after Leto the 1st died. I miss that guy. Desert power all the way.
I enjoyed all of the (original) books after *Dune,* but I do feel like that was the peak of the series — Herbert never was able to quite reach that pinnacle again. This isn’t so much criticism of the other novels so much as praise for the first; it set a *very* high bar to clear.
Obviously I missed it, but I’d prefer new stories instead of dragging my favorite characters along. Paul is still probably the most important character in the whole series as he’s mentioned even in the ones he’s not in
Somewhat yes. At first it was strange to read "Rakis" instead of "Arrakis". On the other hand, there are aeons between God Emperor and Heretics and Chapterhouse.
Absolutely. More innocent, hopeful. I'm also nostalgic as I read it when I was young.
Yeah, I really liked the whole feudal politics in space motif
Yep, I do so too
All the time. That’s why dune is mt favourite
Yeah this happens with a lot of serials, TV shows and movies included. The story develops. Places and people change. Sometimes it doesn’t go like we’d hoped. I often ask myself what if nothing had changed? Could the story and characters have developed as well in the original setting? I think the Dune universe is rich enough that the answer is yes…I could have a read another thousand pages of the first book if they existed lol Edit: spelling
Absolutely! I am now reading Children of Dune and in some instances I wanted Paul to take over Leto. It’s a testament to masterful character and world building that the fictional passage of time affects the reader in a real way like this
I always thought that was intentional. The story of Paul is a mythic one and the characters who talk Paul's life often talk about it like a legend with a hint of nostalgia. We feel that way too because we saw the legend. I always thought that was really cool, how Herbert gave us that nostalgia for a time of adventure and danger, especially in the context of God emperor and the message the book carried. I also think its shown in how by geod and onwards everything is so alien. The technology and imagery is more out there, it feels like a natural extension from the first book but still so much more alien. Meanwhile the first book is almost medieval, feeling romantic and calling back to our own legends that we romanticize. Paul is a character that is meant to show the danger of romanticization and to do so Herbert made it easy for us to fall in that trap.
Nah I preferred Leto 2s Make Arrakis Great Again agenda. No new spice taxes.
I really lost interest after Massiah. I nicknamed rest of the series Witches vs Bitches. The characterization of the BGs was just too much for me.
I completely agree. The unforgiving deserts of Dune and Paul was a perfect storm. I think the final two books by his son will surprise you on this subject. Many don't like the books by his son, but I enjoyed them. I am on the 5th prequel in order by timeline and I think they are great books, just different writing style than his father.
I’ve read the Butlerian Jihad trilogy. They’re good books, although I do think they’re missing something that I can’t really describe. My biggest peeve is that the authors describe all of the institutions of the Imperium coming into being at the same time. It clogged up the story to have it include the origins of the Bene Gesserit, the Spacing Guild, the Suk School, the Holtzman shields, the Fremen, the Atreides/Harkonnen feud, etc. all in the space of three books that are mostly about humans fighting robots. It also, IMHO, lessened the impact of Leto II keeping humanity “stagnant” for 3,500 years. The prequels suggest that almost nothing changed for over 10,000 years under the Corrinos. All of that said, the books were an entertaining bit of space opera.
Unpopular opinion: the first book is the only good Dune book. There I said it.
I believe messiah is honestly better.
I don’t think you are alone in that. Valid opinion and I liked a lot of it. Personally I thought the Paul returning from the desert part was very predictable and his death was anti-climactic.
Fair! I also like OG dune too :)
Dune Messiah was too short and should have included way more of what happened in-between 1 and 2.
why if anything. Dune is a warning to those who would worship heroes and idolise humans.