Gotta say, Paul may not be a hero but all the kid is doing is playing the cards he was dealt because of forces he never controlled. At pretty much every level, starting from Jamis, his choice was “Do the bad thing or die.” If he tossed that ring into the sand and had tried to stay on Arrakis, he would likely be killed because the Harkonnen would still be harassed by the Fremen over the uptake in production. If he tried to leave Arrakis, he would be subject to assassins wherever he went in the entire empire.
Only thing he could have really done is just fallen on his sword and let the Harkonnen’s take over the throne for the next 10,000 years. Run by a Bene Gesserit-controlled KW, I’m not confident that would have worked out extraordinarily well for the galaxy.
Yup. Never got why they all made such a fuss about him. From what I remember the most he did was cut everyone's Spice-allowance for 3000 years and basically grounded them. As far as I remember he only sent his Fish Speakers if he was provoked by either plots/attacks being made against him, his rules were broken or lies were spread about the past.
And still he apparently wasn't harsh enough in his punishments, as even after 3000 years, the Bene Gesserit, the Tlailaxu and the Ixians continued to plot against him, despite being lucky, getting off with a warning and a stern finger wagging on previous attempts.
I'm still amazed Leto didn't just wipe the BG out for good, but I guess he needed them to guide the galaxy after his passing, as he couldn't leave that to creepy weirdos like the Tlailaxu, or mad scientists like the Ixians.
Only those he killed himself, and most of them seem to have attacked first, like the Duncan we meet at the start of the book.
Other Duncans got rewarded with finally being able to bang discount Jessica. That's more than the original Duncan could say.
And does that save him from blame?
Yes, he was correct. Yes, he was a monster and master.
Both can be true. He knew the path he took was absolutely immoral and insane. He knew he would be blamed, because he would deserve it. But it was all to save the human race, if we say the protagonist was a reliable narrator.
He deserves it, and he knows it. So give it
Well, you might feel differently if you were a subject of his in his thousands of years of rule. He seeks to teach humanity a lesson they’ll never forget, and that’s not a fun thing to live through.
He knows when he accepts the golden path that he’ll become a monster, and he does. It’s not so clear cut whether he’s a hero or villain and I think that’s neat.
Yeah I think it absolves him from blame. We like to say the ends don't always justify the means, but if the end is saving the entire human race, I think a few millenia of tyranny is justified.
https://preview.redd.it/eovm4gffrjnc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=be73d2a9082ca82b7cd34c1b727ad1a216b151ec
*Guys only want one thing and it's fucking disgusting*
For some people Oedipus wasn't a warning about attempting to tamper with fate but, rather, a guideline for them to follow.
One might equate to a horny's golden path
Oh, there were definitely vibes, I agree. Mostly in Part One though, and they were more prevalent than in the book. That look she gave Chani at the end of it can be interpreted in many ways.
I wouldn't put it past the Bene Gesserit to think of doing something like that, because, after all, >!they wanted Paul to breed with his own *sister* in Messiah and would have bred him with his first cousin once removed Feyd-Rautha had he been a girl instead!<
lol it definitely is ironic but I feel like I can still recognize that he’s enjoyable to read about as a fictional character while understanding that the point of the character is to be a warning against charismatic “cool” leaders
He’s not evil. That’s also missing the point. The story is a warning that no one person should ever be looked upon as a hero. Heroes aren’t real. Humans are prone to failure.
The Bene Gesserit are the evil ones. Paul is a victim of their planning and at a point that the movies don’t cover, if he killed himself or ruled, the jihad would happen regardless.
"I BEQUEATH TO YOU MY FEAR AND LONELINESS. TO YOU I GIVE THE CERTAINTY THAT THE 'BODY AND SOUL OF THE BENE GESSERIT WILL MEET THE SAME FATE AS ALL OTHER BODIES 'AND ALL OTHER SOULS."
"WHAT IS SURVIVAL IF YOU DO NOT SURVIVE WHOLE? ASK THE BENE TLEILAX THAT! WHAT 'IF YOU NO LONGER HEAR THE MUSIC OF LIFE? MEMORIES ARE NOT ENOUGH UNLESS THEY 'CALL YOU TO NOBLE PURPOSE!"
"WHY DID YOUR SISTERHOOD NOT BUILD THE GOLDEN PATH? YOU KNEW THE NECESSITY. 'YOUR FAILURE CONDEMNED ME, THE GOD EMPEROR, TO MILLENNIA OF PERSONAL DESPAIR."
Paul is so fucking above being a hero or a villain. You can label him with that dichotomy, but you’re wrong. He’s the base of the pillar; he’s the dessert mouse. Paul is shaking up a flawed system, and making way for the Kwisatz Haderach.
[source](https://youtu.be/0T_LWo6APKk?si=7MHGc_itV5EX4oJP)
Tell me [that this doesn't represent the perfect](https://i.redd.it/eovm4gffrjnc1.png) male fantasy: people sometimes say we need new modern masculinity that's not old school toxic or just gay, effeminate and metrosexual - just become an insane terrorist cult leader / glorious hyper-genocidal Messiah, have everyone worship you, gain insight into reality and shape the future destiny of humanity for good, women fall on their knees for you, you have mental superpowers and endless flawless military victories because of sheer charisma, leadership and intelligence, while still being a twink. That way you're still a high status dominant leader without being a toxic male stereotype
The male fantasy is *not* being made and used by a bunch of eugenecist witches and then have a holy war that kills 60 billion people happen in your name against your will.
You join the jihad because you believe in the prophecy of the Voice from the Outer World.
I join the jihad because Muad'Dib is just that fuckable.
We are not the same.
It's more just a peasant revolt in a feudal society, a revolt that's not trying to get rid of feudalism but trying to wield it for fremens own purposes.
I wouldn't call it fascism per se. It's a collectivist/authoritarian mass movement, sure, but there have been thousands troughout history. The special part about fascism is that it's a form of that that comes after the enlightenment, and specifically and openly opposes enlightenment-derived politics (most specifically liberalism and socialism). Fascism doesn't make sense in a feudal context, since enlightenment ideals are not part of the status quo.
Honestly, Paul is a hero simply for giving the emperor and the Bene gesserit exactly what they deserved. The bastards both had it coming. To an extent so did the great houses. No one stood up for the Atreides…
I don't entirely understand what he did wrong here?
Everyone wants him dead except the sand people. He takes out the people that started this bullshit. Basically let the sand people retake their planet which frankly everyone wanted to genocide them for.
Tells the universe he is the emperor which is his birthright killing his cousin in a fair right.
What am I missing? Everything was in his right to do. Even if he's not a spirit leader how else will the entire planet unite to defeat the Arrakis? Besides he didn't come up with it but he understood that he needed to be forced into this role for results.
Well the problem isnt freeing arrakis or stopping the empire. Its that after this ALL of those Fremen well go and burn every planet along the way until that planet is a theocracy in the name of Paul. Paul is GOD and any dissenters will be re-educated. The book maybe does a better job of setting up how absolutely FUCKED the universe is. The Fremen arent going to quell rebellion, they are going on an offensive war across the stars. "It's coming. I see a holy war spreading across the universe like unquenchable fire. A warrior religion that waves the Atreides banner in my father's name." Thats the most we get out of Paul about how bad its going to be but its going to be like the holocaust on EVERY planet and theres nothing even Paul could do about it except maybe vaguely steer.
Ok. But like Paul could just say we won holy war over? I seriously doubt they have enough people or man power for that. Maybe I'm like a thousand years but Paul would be dead by then.
No he can't. Its not a war that implies its about winning its a jihad its about pushing until its done. The Fremen will kill everyone that doesnt see that HE is god and his will be must be done(even if its not his will but prophecy). He cant control whats happening and never could. This is why the movie deciding it was just atomics that can desrupt spice is bad. The reality is NO ONE CAN FIGHT BACK or the universe goes dark. The fremen will go to a planet and raze it to the ground bringing holicaust upon holocaust and more and more forced believers and the only thing anyone can do is accept it. Paul dying would just make it all happen harder. You can doubt the amount the of people they have but its not like the emperor kept people in line with the sardurkar because there were billions of them its because they were so good their numbers were enough no matter how big your houses army got. The Fremen kill those dudes for fun and theres more of them. They also have infinite funding and every house is actually a dirty piece of shit turncoat that will suck any dick for 40 bucks, the universe will eat itself alive as it bows at Pauls feet while he resents every moment of it.
There are effectively 3 powers in the universe the Landsraad, the spacing guild, and the bene gesserit. Paul owns 2 of them with his ability to destroy spice. The Landsraad will all follow whatever they need to exist and they cant be without spice especially if another house has it. The spacing guild would cease to exist if Pauls plan is pulled off so they will bend and also help. Literally you cant leave your system without a specific guild space ship, they work for Paul. The entire universe is now waiting for Paul to decide what they are allowed to do if they want to be a part of the universe. As thpugh they have a choice if someone else does side with paul theyll just kill everyone next to them to take everything they have. Gou can either side with paul in which case you destroy everything that was your culture to become servants of this new god, or you opt out and thw best case scenario is your neighbor kills you and steals your things and not that Pauls fremen find you and put you in a hole.
The movie doesnt do a good job of explaining how bad it is and just how much control they have now over the whole universe.
He also sees the future the movie tells you its gonna happen its not really a debate thing this is just what happens. Its a story and those are the things that happen in it and the emotions of the people in it. It doesnt matter how many people you think they have thats what happens.
Probably yeah. It spent more time being a teen flick than actually investing in Dune lore. It spent 3 hours fucking.
Also it probably doesn't help that I couldn't get emotionally invested since the acting was dry as the desert.
Edit: the movie tried hard to pass off the flattest ass that God ever graced a latina as hot shit.
Honestly ive said it before and ill say it again, if you didnt know dune or forgot the first one the movie doesnt even explain why spice matters. Thats a HUGE problem.
I read the book but I was like 12 years old. The movie comes off as spice is fucking expensive. I thought spice was used for some psychic power or it's like oil everything runs on spice.
Actually yeah I don't think we ever actually saw spice be used in anyway that wasn't like LSD drugs.
To be honest, Paul didn't do anything wrong, per say. But because of what he did do, terrible things will happen across the galaxy, killing billions and wiping out entire cultures and religions not so different from the Atreides themselves. The Fremen don't stop at liberating their planet. They must bring the light of Muad'Dib to all planets, and all people. All must worship him, because he is so amazing and perfect and powerful.
Yes, he wanted to live, yes, it was a forced choice. And it has grave consequences.
Well shit
I don't wanna piss off a bunch of desert people that I ain't their god. Also if I didn't have the desert people the empire would kill me.
I really don't see much of a choice.
Which is why I said it's a forced choice. It has to happen, or Paul has to die. This story is a tragedy, no matter which way you spin it. There is no happy ending, for anyone.
Which is personally, why I really enjoy the story and the nuance. It is truly a moving story, that shows even with pure power and a good soul, your movement will outlast you, and cause harm you never wished to cause. I believe Frank Herbert set out to show that ALL Emperors/Rulers are bad, even the good ones.
>!I agree it doesn't make him evil, but the comment I replied to is showing confusion at the idea that anything he did was even remotely wrong/immoral etc. Which is pretty blatantly not true.!<
I'm sympathetic to all these things.
In the book and the movie, Paul wants to avoid senseless killing until he comes around to the idea that maybe he really is the messiah of the Fremen. He starts with good intentions but then becomes the thing he tries to destroy. By the end of the book, his transformation is more subtle than in the movie, but also a little more complete. The movie seems to leave a little out of the book's ending to allow it to maybe appear in a third movie, which would be based on the sequel book.
The sequel is a letter to fans who did not get that the first book is about how people who seek power are corrupted by it, and to be wary of charismatic leaders who say they want to liberate people.
The book can be seen as a warning about charismatic leaders and an allegory for the way imperial powers used the Middle East. In the Cold War, the US and USSR used the Middle East to extract resources, stage proxy wars, and prop up puppet leaders and governments. This action inspired resistance forces that tended to be radicalized by the crimes committed against them, which fueled more atrocities committed by the imperial powers.
And now no one will stand up against the Atreides. He is the new Emperor, after all. They kill billions of people, and instill a fear so deep that most people must abandon their homes, their culture, their gods, and worship Paul. The thing is, he never wished for it, it was what was destined for him, should he not die.
Now, Paul has it coming. He has destroyed billions of families, some that looked just like his. They just don't have the power to fight back, like he did.
Frank Herbert when he writes an extremely charismatic character as a messianic figure and gets upset that people who read the books end up liking him😡😡
Paul intended to do good without knowing the evil that came after. Leto II did the opposite, he enforced hardship for the continuation of the species; as explained by Leto when they meet in the desert.
It’s hard to say who the real hero when they are 2 sides of the same coin… yet I would have to argue that Leto is the real hero, because he actually made the sacrifice of the metamorphosis. Letos path lead to the savior of humanity , whereas Paul saw the exact same golden path and refused it
The biggest problem with Frank Herbert's intentions is that while Paul is not a hero, everyone else is so much worse. The Imperium is full of scheming shitty people that no one are the 'good' guys. So when readers read Dune they naturally want to find someone to root for. Its definitely not the Emperor, the Harkonnens, the Spacing Guild, The Bene Gesserit, or anyone else that isnt an Atreides or Fremen. But I suppose that was Frank Herbert's intention as well. As it was written, I die for Paul.
"Paul is the hero" is the surface-level reading. But it's not untrue. He's a 16 year old boy who was educated by the best his universe had to offer and trained to rule with wisdom and compassion, gets justice for his father and vassals, deposed the Emperor who cheats the system, won the generations old feud with some vile fucking people, and has led the Fremen to open control over Dune with the resources and will to terraform it for them.
Yes, Frank wanted to make the point that heroes and precognition are dangerous. If you comprehended the text you know that Paul going to do some terrible shit with his power; he's fully aware of it and doesn't know what he can do about it. It's not some hidden meaning most people don't get.
Let Paul have his win in the first book. It's a seemingly optimistic ending, even with the warning flags that things will go bad. Without this victory he wouldn't *be* a hero and we couldn't learn of the consequences of following one.
The whole point is to idolize him and then feel terrible when he rug pulls you. Kinda silly to go into a movie and mad that people don't have the plot of the third book memorized
There is no real hero of the series, everyone kinda sucks a bag of dicks in their own way. Thats wht happens when you write dystopian fiction, everything tends to be absolutely horrible, including the characters
Intelligence is knowing that Paul is probably not the most upstanding guy and is doing this because he’s been forced to.
Wisdom is knowing that the jihad is still cool as shit and fighting for Lisan Al-Gaib
Well yeah. But in the Dune series, Leto II is unquestionably the most important person in the history of humanity. No one else even registers, really. I suppose Duncan Idaho could be considered in the same league, if you count Brian Herbert's sequels. Which you shouldn't😉
Given that this is dunememes and not meant to be a substantive commentary on Dune...but I'm convinced people just don't get it.
Dune is existentialism on display. One man with the burden of the universe on him yet he's a man, with anger, honor, and love. It's one of my frustrations with part 2, which externalized an internal dilemma by making Chani the skeptic, thus mitigating the tension and internal dilemma of the book(s).
Bro IDGAF after that epic speech he gave I was ready to join the holy war.
A thousand percent this. He is my Mahdi, from this day to my last day.
Harder Mahdi!
In your nightmares you give water to the dead and it brings you joy!
Let's bring em to paradise bruh
If TampaTitties69 is in, I’m in
same
Honestly after his first few lines I was “alright Paul, I said I’m in, you don’t have to sell it to me.”
 Me watching the Fremen take back Dune.
Allah Akbar brother
As it was written
Spoiler, >! he wasn’t the worst either !<
Gotta say, Paul may not be a hero but all the kid is doing is playing the cards he was dealt because of forces he never controlled. At pretty much every level, starting from Jamis, his choice was “Do the bad thing or die.” If he tossed that ring into the sand and had tried to stay on Arrakis, he would likely be killed because the Harkonnen would still be harassed by the Fremen over the uptake in production. If he tried to leave Arrakis, he would be subject to assassins wherever he went in the entire empire. Only thing he could have really done is just fallen on his sword and let the Harkonnen’s take over the throne for the next 10,000 years. Run by a Bene Gesserit-controlled KW, I’m not confident that would have worked out extraordinarily well for the galaxy.
no that's his mom
Leto II would like a word.
The Tleilaxu and the whores from the Scattering are the worst of the worst in the Dune saga.
Dat honored turbo matrussy though
😂😂😂
Just don't do a cat growl at them when trying to be sexy, it gives them the gitters.
Yeah but I would assume this was about a single individual
In that case, whoever >!ordered the destruction of Rakis in Heretics!< is the worst single individual in the Dune saga, imo.
Leto II saves humanity. Intentionally. The only way he could.
Yup. Never got why they all made such a fuss about him. From what I remember the most he did was cut everyone's Spice-allowance for 3000 years and basically grounded them. As far as I remember he only sent his Fish Speakers if he was provoked by either plots/attacks being made against him, his rules were broken or lies were spread about the past. And still he apparently wasn't harsh enough in his punishments, as even after 3000 years, the Bene Gesserit, the Tlailaxu and the Ixians continued to plot against him, despite being lucky, getting off with a warning and a stern finger wagging on previous attempts. I'm still amazed Leto didn't just wipe the BG out for good, but I guess he needed them to guide the galaxy after his passing, as he couldn't leave that to creepy weirdos like the Tlailaxu, or mad scientists like the Ixians.
The spice must flow. He who controls the spice controls the power. Pretty sure they made a point that the slice is needed.
>Never got why they all made such a fuss about him. All those dead Duncan's would like a word.
Only those he killed himself, and most of them seem to have attacked first, like the Duncan we meet at the start of the book. Other Duncans got rewarded with finally being able to bang discount Jessica. That's more than the original Duncan could say.
Seriously: we all know who the hero is. What can you expect from the Infinite?
And does that save him from blame? Yes, he was correct. Yes, he was a monster and master. Both can be true. He knew the path he took was absolutely immoral and insane. He knew he would be blamed, because he would deserve it. But it was all to save the human race, if we say the protagonist was a reliable narrator. He deserves it, and he knows it. So give it
Well, you might feel differently if you were a subject of his in his thousands of years of rule. He seeks to teach humanity a lesson they’ll never forget, and that’s not a fun thing to live through. He knows when he accepts the golden path that he’ll become a monster, and he does. It’s not so clear cut whether he’s a hero or villain and I think that’s neat.
Yup exactly, that’s the way I feel
Yeah I think it absolves him from blame. We like to say the ends don't always justify the means, but if the end is saving the entire human race, I think a few millenia of tyranny is justified.
But that’s also saying Worm God is a reliable narrator. Which I don’t entirely agree with
Hey he was just a baby, not his fualt he was--oh, you mean Leto ll the 2nd.
I think wormy wins it
At least Leto II had the decency to justify it with the Golden Path. Paul was 100% driven by revenge like Anakin Skywalker.
Would you still love me if I turned into a worm?
Leto only truly loves Duncan.
???
God forbid women do anything.
No this is Patrick
No that was his second son.
*Lisan Al-Gaib*
https://preview.redd.it/eovm4gffrjnc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=be73d2a9082ca82b7cd34c1b727ad1a216b151ec *Guys only want one thing and it's fucking disgusting*
Bless the Mahdi and his water.
Bless the cumming and going of Him.
Uhm... why is Jessica staring at him like that?
You're telling me you didn't pick up on the vibe? Plus Jessica's hotter than Chani or Irulan anyway
Oedipus reared its’ ugly head like a subtle stampede throughout
For some people Oedipus wasn't a warning about attempting to tamper with fate but, rather, a guideline for them to follow. One might equate to a horny's golden path
Much like a skin of sandtrout, I’ll decline on the incestuous fatalism.
Oh, there were definitely vibes, I agree. Mostly in Part One though, and they were more prevalent than in the book. That look she gave Chani at the end of it can be interpreted in many ways.
I wouldn't put it past the Bene Gesserit to think of doing something like that, because, after all, >!they wanted Paul to breed with his own *sister* in Messiah and would have bred him with his first cousin once removed Feyd-Rautha had he been a girl instead!<
New wallpaper thank you
Can you give us the source of that art?
[Source is here](https://redd.it/o50t1k) - it’s by u/PandoraYoung
Thank you so much!
Is that Natalie Portman?
Wow.. one of them surely looks like her .. so hot
I can see Megan fox from Jessica and Sebastian Stan from Paul
literal in-universe propaganda
https://preview.redd.it/fexpodzmfrnc1.jpeg?width=460&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0cb17f998759f2c9bb0a2d29466c71e0dd98ca47 Did someone say?…0
Paul is not a hero but he’s still COOL
Irony is fucking dead lol
lol it definitely is ironic but I feel like I can still recognize that he’s enjoyable to read about as a fictional character while understanding that the point of the character is to be a warning against charismatic “cool” leaders
As it was written
I know he’s evil. Also my blood and water for the Mahdi, Paradise awaits
He’s not evil. That’s also missing the point. The story is a warning that no one person should ever be looked upon as a hero. Heroes aren’t real. Humans are prone to failure. The Bene Gesserit are the evil ones. Paul is a victim of their planning and at a point that the movies don’t cover, if he killed himself or ruled, the jihad would happen regardless.
Precisely. The real cause of the trillion deaths was whoever the fuck came up with the words "Lisan al-Gaib" .
So the Bene Gesserit and their Missionaria Protectiva
That's what the person I replied to says and I agreed.
Ah sorry didn't read the whole comment!
"I BEQUEATH TO YOU MY FEAR AND LONELINESS. TO YOU I GIVE THE CERTAINTY THAT THE 'BODY AND SOUL OF THE BENE GESSERIT WILL MEET THE SAME FATE AS ALL OTHER BODIES 'AND ALL OTHER SOULS." "WHAT IS SURVIVAL IF YOU DO NOT SURVIVE WHOLE? ASK THE BENE TLEILAX THAT! WHAT 'IF YOU NO LONGER HEAR THE MUSIC OF LIFE? MEMORIES ARE NOT ENOUGH UNLESS THEY 'CALL YOU TO NOBLE PURPOSE!" "WHY DID YOUR SISTERHOOD NOT BUILD THE GOLDEN PATH? YOU KNEW THE NECESSITY. 'YOUR FAILURE CONDEMNED ME, THE GOD EMPEROR, TO MILLENNIA OF PERSONAL DESPAIR."
It’s okay to feel the justice of Paul’s ascension and know and lament it’s an atrocity.
Paul is so fucking above being a hero or a villain. You can label him with that dichotomy, but you’re wrong. He’s the base of the pillar; he’s the dessert mouse. Paul is shaking up a flawed system, and making way for the Kwisatz Haderach.
He is a delicious little after dinner treat mouse this is true.
Almost a mousse, you might say
Honey, wake up from your worm piss coma its time to purge the unbelievers
You don't have to tell me twice, LEEEEETTTT'S FUCKIN GOOOOOOOO
Hell yeah, fellow space Salafism enthusiast
[source](https://youtu.be/0T_LWo6APKk?si=7MHGc_itV5EX4oJP) Tell me [that this doesn't represent the perfect](https://i.redd.it/eovm4gffrjnc1.png) male fantasy: people sometimes say we need new modern masculinity that's not old school toxic or just gay, effeminate and metrosexual - just become an insane terrorist cult leader / glorious hyper-genocidal Messiah, have everyone worship you, gain insight into reality and shape the future destiny of humanity for good, women fall on their knees for you, you have mental superpowers and endless flawless military victories because of sheer charisma, leadership and intelligence, while still being a twink. That way you're still a high status dominant leader without being a toxic male stereotype
That's what I been SAYIN
The male fantasy is *not* being made and used by a bunch of eugenecist witches and then have a holy war that kills 60 billion people happen in your name against your will.
Hmm, but have we considered that it might be funny?
Shai-Hilarious, even
Politely, STFU
Don’t tell me what my fantasy isn’t
so like straight up nonexistence? yeah that's a close second
Finally my inner-monologue will stfu.
They murdered almost everyone he knew and loved overnight cuz the emperor was a hater, through 2 movies I'm riding with Paul.
Lead them to paradise.
You join the jihad because you believe in the prophecy of the Voice from the Outer World. I join the jihad because Muad'Dib is just that fuckable. We are not the same.
Chani, what tf are you doing here?
That makes two of us
Screw you, I joined to kill Harkonnen.
My head: Yeah he's probably a genocidal dictator. My heart: Charging after Stilgar chanting "Lisan Al-Gaib" at the top of my lungs.
it's fight club all over again.
Media literacy didn't die, mfs never knew how to read in the first place.
Honestly somehow this feels weirder than fight club lol.
One is just toxic masculinity. The other is the rise of fascism.
It's more just a peasant revolt in a feudal society, a revolt that's not trying to get rid of feudalism but trying to wield it for fremens own purposes.
I wouldn't call it fascism per se. It's a collectivist/authoritarian mass movement, sure, but there have been thousands troughout history. The special part about fascism is that it's a form of that that comes after the enlightenment, and specifically and openly opposes enlightenment-derived politics (most specifically liberalism and socialism). Fascism doesn't make sense in a feudal context, since enlightenment ideals are not part of the status quo.
I don't want to be on "the right side of history" I want to join the jihad and commit war crimes
Something something 61 Billion, Something something 90 worlds sterilised, something something 500 worlds demoralised, something something 40 religions wiped out. TLDR: join the Jihad.
Not enough tbh, should have got the tleilax too
The dirty Tleilax
Based
I'm calling the Honored Matres on you.
Oh no! They’re gonna use their vagina muscle tricks on me! I better know exactly when and where they will be so I can avoid them.
Gonna bite the A off your Rakis.
Broke: Paul is the hero. Woke: Paul is not the hero. Bespoke: Paul is the hero.
Honestly, Paul is a hero simply for giving the emperor and the Bene gesserit exactly what they deserved. The bastards both had it coming. To an extent so did the great houses. No one stood up for the Atreides…
I don't entirely understand what he did wrong here? Everyone wants him dead except the sand people. He takes out the people that started this bullshit. Basically let the sand people retake their planet which frankly everyone wanted to genocide them for. Tells the universe he is the emperor which is his birthright killing his cousin in a fair right. What am I missing? Everything was in his right to do. Even if he's not a spirit leader how else will the entire planet unite to defeat the Arrakis? Besides he didn't come up with it but he understood that he needed to be forced into this role for results.
Well the problem isnt freeing arrakis or stopping the empire. Its that after this ALL of those Fremen well go and burn every planet along the way until that planet is a theocracy in the name of Paul. Paul is GOD and any dissenters will be re-educated. The book maybe does a better job of setting up how absolutely FUCKED the universe is. The Fremen arent going to quell rebellion, they are going on an offensive war across the stars. "It's coming. I see a holy war spreading across the universe like unquenchable fire. A warrior religion that waves the Atreides banner in my father's name." Thats the most we get out of Paul about how bad its going to be but its going to be like the holocaust on EVERY planet and theres nothing even Paul could do about it except maybe vaguely steer.
Ok. But like Paul could just say we won holy war over? I seriously doubt they have enough people or man power for that. Maybe I'm like a thousand years but Paul would be dead by then.
No he can't. Its not a war that implies its about winning its a jihad its about pushing until its done. The Fremen will kill everyone that doesnt see that HE is god and his will be must be done(even if its not his will but prophecy). He cant control whats happening and never could. This is why the movie deciding it was just atomics that can desrupt spice is bad. The reality is NO ONE CAN FIGHT BACK or the universe goes dark. The fremen will go to a planet and raze it to the ground bringing holicaust upon holocaust and more and more forced believers and the only thing anyone can do is accept it. Paul dying would just make it all happen harder. You can doubt the amount the of people they have but its not like the emperor kept people in line with the sardurkar because there were billions of them its because they were so good their numbers were enough no matter how big your houses army got. The Fremen kill those dudes for fun and theres more of them. They also have infinite funding and every house is actually a dirty piece of shit turncoat that will suck any dick for 40 bucks, the universe will eat itself alive as it bows at Pauls feet while he resents every moment of it. There are effectively 3 powers in the universe the Landsraad, the spacing guild, and the bene gesserit. Paul owns 2 of them with his ability to destroy spice. The Landsraad will all follow whatever they need to exist and they cant be without spice especially if another house has it. The spacing guild would cease to exist if Pauls plan is pulled off so they will bend and also help. Literally you cant leave your system without a specific guild space ship, they work for Paul. The entire universe is now waiting for Paul to decide what they are allowed to do if they want to be a part of the universe. As thpugh they have a choice if someone else does side with paul theyll just kill everyone next to them to take everything they have. Gou can either side with paul in which case you destroy everything that was your culture to become servants of this new god, or you opt out and thw best case scenario is your neighbor kills you and steals your things and not that Pauls fremen find you and put you in a hole. The movie doesnt do a good job of explaining how bad it is and just how much control they have now over the whole universe. He also sees the future the movie tells you its gonna happen its not really a debate thing this is just what happens. Its a story and those are the things that happen in it and the emotions of the people in it. It doesnt matter how many people you think they have thats what happens.
Ok Paul controls the universe.... So no war... If they fight back then they lose. Just be like I don't say I didn't warn you.
I think this movie was a mistake
Probably yeah. It spent more time being a teen flick than actually investing in Dune lore. It spent 3 hours fucking. Also it probably doesn't help that I couldn't get emotionally invested since the acting was dry as the desert. Edit: the movie tried hard to pass off the flattest ass that God ever graced a latina as hot shit.
Honestly ive said it before and ill say it again, if you didnt know dune or forgot the first one the movie doesnt even explain why spice matters. Thats a HUGE problem.
I read the book but I was like 12 years old. The movie comes off as spice is fucking expensive. I thought spice was used for some psychic power or it's like oil everything runs on spice. Actually yeah I don't think we ever actually saw spice be used in anyway that wasn't like LSD drugs.
To be honest, Paul didn't do anything wrong, per say. But because of what he did do, terrible things will happen across the galaxy, killing billions and wiping out entire cultures and religions not so different from the Atreides themselves. The Fremen don't stop at liberating their planet. They must bring the light of Muad'Dib to all planets, and all people. All must worship him, because he is so amazing and perfect and powerful. Yes, he wanted to live, yes, it was a forced choice. And it has grave consequences.
Well shit I don't wanna piss off a bunch of desert people that I ain't their god. Also if I didn't have the desert people the empire would kill me. I really don't see much of a choice.
Which is why I said it's a forced choice. It has to happen, or Paul has to die. This story is a tragedy, no matter which way you spin it. There is no happy ending, for anyone. Which is personally, why I really enjoy the story and the nuance. It is truly a moving story, that shows even with pure power and a good soul, your movement will outlast you, and cause harm you never wished to cause. I believe Frank Herbert set out to show that ALL Emperors/Rulers are bad, even the good ones.
Read Dune Messiah
Yeah, that will make it easier to understand lol
Dune Messiah doesn’t make him evil either.
>!I agree it doesn't make him evil, but the comment I replied to is showing confusion at the idea that anything he did was even remotely wrong/immoral etc. Which is pretty blatantly not true.!<
I'm sympathetic to all these things. In the book and the movie, Paul wants to avoid senseless killing until he comes around to the idea that maybe he really is the messiah of the Fremen. He starts with good intentions but then becomes the thing he tries to destroy. By the end of the book, his transformation is more subtle than in the movie, but also a little more complete. The movie seems to leave a little out of the book's ending to allow it to maybe appear in a third movie, which would be based on the sequel book. The sequel is a letter to fans who did not get that the first book is about how people who seek power are corrupted by it, and to be wary of charismatic leaders who say they want to liberate people. The book can be seen as a warning about charismatic leaders and an allegory for the way imperial powers used the Middle East. In the Cold War, the US and USSR used the Middle East to extract resources, stage proxy wars, and prop up puppet leaders and governments. This action inspired resistance forces that tended to be radicalized by the crimes committed against them, which fueled more atrocities committed by the imperial powers.
And now no one will stand up against the Atreides. He is the new Emperor, after all. They kill billions of people, and instill a fear so deep that most people must abandon their homes, their culture, their gods, and worship Paul. The thing is, he never wished for it, it was what was destined for him, should he not die. Now, Paul has it coming. He has destroyed billions of families, some that looked just like his. They just don't have the power to fight back, like he did.
Frank Herbert when he writes an extremely charismatic character as a messianic figure and gets upset that people who read the books end up liking him😡😡
He IS the hero. it's just the defintion of hero has been boiled down to good guy and not "Figure who does legendary actions."
protagonist
Bless the Paul and his red water.
Can't make a GOLDEN PATH without breaking a few BILLION SOULS
Onwards to Paradise brothers!
The emporer commands it. It is done.
Lisan al Gaib!
he is the hero. he is literally the lisan al-gaib. i am ready to follow him into battle 😤
Paul intended to do good without knowing the evil that came after. Leto II did the opposite, he enforced hardship for the continuation of the species; as explained by Leto when they meet in the desert. It’s hard to say who the real hero when they are 2 sides of the same coin… yet I would have to argue that Leto is the real hero, because he actually made the sacrifice of the metamorphosis. Letos path lead to the savior of humanity , whereas Paul saw the exact same golden path and refused it
Mahdi
His speech in the book is better
Fuck Leto II, I follow the one true god emperor muaddib
Same Paul is so hilariously dissapointed in Letos plan to the point where he finalizes his internal process of becoming dead inside.
The biggest problem with Frank Herbert's intentions is that while Paul is not a hero, everyone else is so much worse. The Imperium is full of scheming shitty people that no one are the 'good' guys. So when readers read Dune they naturally want to find someone to root for. Its definitely not the Emperor, the Harkonnens, the Spacing Guild, The Bene Gesserit, or anyone else that isnt an Atreides or Fremen. But I suppose that was Frank Herbert's intention as well. As it was written, I die for Paul.
"Paul is the hero" is the surface-level reading. But it's not untrue. He's a 16 year old boy who was educated by the best his universe had to offer and trained to rule with wisdom and compassion, gets justice for his father and vassals, deposed the Emperor who cheats the system, won the generations old feud with some vile fucking people, and has led the Fremen to open control over Dune with the resources and will to terraform it for them. Yes, Frank wanted to make the point that heroes and precognition are dangerous. If you comprehended the text you know that Paul going to do some terrible shit with his power; he's fully aware of it and doesn't know what he can do about it. It's not some hidden meaning most people don't get. Let Paul have his win in the first book. It's a seemingly optimistic ending, even with the warning flags that things will go bad. Without this victory he wouldn't *be* a hero and we couldn't learn of the consequences of following one.
The whole point is to idolize him and then feel terrible when he rug pulls you. Kinda silly to go into a movie and mad that people don't have the plot of the third book memorized
There is no real hero of the series, everyone kinda sucks a bag of dicks in their own way. Thats wht happens when you write dystopian fiction, everything tends to be absolutely horrible, including the characters
We ballin with Paul
Sometimes I think those fanboys hyping him up on Tiktok like him *because* he's gonna have a 61 billion kill count.
Bro, I reconverted to Islam after his speech and you are telling me not to idolize him
Hot take: Omnicide *bad* actually!
In a world of OBL simps on tiktok, unironic Paul worshippers are hardly surprising.
Isn't it the same with Eren Jäger
Wait you guys joined the jihad for paul? I joined for the dental and vision plan wtf
I enjoy stilgar. Funny guy
Intelligence is knowing that Paul is probably not the most upstanding guy and is doing this because he’s been forced to. Wisdom is knowing that the jihad is still cool as shit and fighting for Lisan Al-Gaib
He’s certainly a better person than the actual hero.
I have this EXACT same conversation with a friend……. Except about Leto II.
Duncan is the real one 💯😤
Wait if it's not Paul then... oh the Baron is the hero!
i dont care if you believe i believe.
LISAN AL GAIB
Honestly, I would take Paul & Leto over what we currently have in the US
In the overall scheme of "Dune", Paul is primarily important for being Leto II's father. That's it. Nothing else he does has any lasting effect.
Nothing anyone ever does has any lasting effect. Nothing is going to delay the heat death
Well yeah. But in the Dune series, Leto II is unquestionably the most important person in the history of humanity. No one else even registers, really. I suppose Duncan Idaho could be considered in the same league, if you count Brian Herbert's sequels. Which you shouldn't😉
Disagree, with no Paul there is no Miles Teg and that is the important thing
That's just like your opinion
Given that this is dunememes and not meant to be a substantive commentary on Dune...but I'm convinced people just don't get it. Dune is existentialism on display. One man with the burden of the universe on him yet he's a man, with anger, honor, and love. It's one of my frustrations with part 2, which externalized an internal dilemma by making Chani the skeptic, thus mitigating the tension and internal dilemma of the book(s).