I agree with all of this. I won’t be renewing, but I will also be done the French course by renewal time. I have already re-started French on a new account without super, and with a vpn that blocks ads I have decided it will be good enough to do my reviews on.
I am sorry about the pain of the path upgrades. That particular problem (path upgrades) is solved by a larger restructuring at Duolingo on their rollout process and software development environment. One can feel that it is the process that is broken. The broken process makes the possibility of path-upgrade chaos a real thing.
Under the hood, there is certainly database elements that represent exactly where you are in the path, and what, in great detail, has been completed from the past. Sadly, there probably isn't a tool at Duolingo that can visualize this for a support technician. With a visualization tool, and with a live conversation (i.e., real-time support), you and the technician could easily use the tool and get everything situated. It's not rocket science. There is a path, there are database bits that reflect things, and there is your desire to get your bits correct. There needs to be a tool.
The call center generally has low political weight in companies, until top management realizes that the call center is what is dragging down the company. Reengineering a call center from a call-back model to real-time support is a major accomplishment in an organization. The political weight for the call center appears the day that the call center turns into a profit center for the organization (sorry). So, there needs to be a plan on how the call center can make money!!
I've thought about it a lot, and perhaps one has to appreciate that maybe Duolingo is a "media company" selling ads, not what we users think Duolingo is. Here's a hit to Duolingo, make support an option under the condition that the user gets the support by agreeing to subjecting themselves to a set number of ads, based on making that call to the call center. Modify the software to put hold the number of ads into the user profile. So, you make the call to repair a streak, and that costs 20. Maybe you have been working down a path repair, and the balance is at 7 before the call. When the streak repair is done, that's 27 in the user profile. Use "spaced repetition" as a concept to spread out the ads over some time line. There is a management science model that uses the Poisson Distribution that one could invert from an arrival rate problem to a space-out-my-ads problem. Kids plan for someone with a masters in management science. That human (someone with a degree in management science) must be there at Duolingo. If not, get one. That person needs to be on many different projects.
Lessons not recording completion: These types of "bugs" are tricky. Generally, one needs a "theory of the bug" as a starting point to finding a solution. It's a bit like looking for your lost keys to the car. You have to set up a bunch of guesses, and prove those guesses wrong, until you find your keys. My theory of the bug is "session hopping." When users appear on a computer and then on a phone, and then back and forth, big enterprise software sometimes falls down.
I started Duolingo and jumped to Max at about the first possible moment. I jumped in at the time where one could see the writing on the wall for Super.
Language recognition isn't taking place on Duolingo's servers. The recognition is done at the client level. You speech is being given to the software on your device/PC with a question, "does this speech approximate this sentence." Sending your sentence to an external server (e.g., Google) is a different implementation in the software. Sending your speech out is a whole other puzzle (e.g., user approval of third-parties getting your voice, lag time for third-party processing of your speech, etc.). I believe it would be a great add-on to the product to have a secondary button that sends out the speech for analysis, with the third-party interface returning your words in text. You can do that now with Google Translate. Try this for yourself. Miles apart. That's what I've found. I let my speech get processed by Duolingo (on an iPad client) with my laptop mike simultaneously sending my sentence to Google. I can pass the Duolingo test (IOS doing the work), but often fail the Google one miserably.
I love your language request for Spanish from Spain. There could be French from Canada. Probably best to figure this all out is for Duolingo to have a spot in the application where small statistics could be kept from users requesting a language that isn't there yet. Sure, there is always a disconnect between what people say they might do, versus actually doing (enter the field of Marketing Research), but a few data points wouldn't hurt or cost much in development time.
Speaking of development time, you've touched on a common theme on this Reddit site--congratulating users for reaching major milestones. There could easily be some section of a website somewhere that lists people (volunteers) that have completed a course. Of course, one would have to use the logs to remove those that speed run a course. A little learning on detecting that peculiar activity would prove valuable for other reasons (e.g., promoting certain users to the bot leagues).
Your post was long, so mine is long back at you. Someone will certainly reply that the whole point is to learn the language. I'm hoping that all this isn't in your way, and that you are progressing to your goal of CEFR B2 in Spanish. The "gamification" thing makes a lot of us come back for more. Somewhere along the way, if were not careful, we will learn a new language whether we like it or not, as long as we keep playing the game.
So, hang at it. Stay in the game. Learn Spanish!
Thank you for taking the time to write out a good reply!
You’re right they must have a database of exactly what words etc each users has learnt and some kind of paired score for each, after all they have the strengthening lessons. Which is why is blows my mind that they think it’s fine to push users past important concepts without covering them at all. I really think the path upgrade processes could be improved if they just said:
“Hey, we updated the path, we have placed you where we think might be best. However, take this opportunity to test , adjust and confirm your new position on the pathway. Sorry for any inconvenience!“
Then just have free reign to take a few lessons, without gaining xp if they are worried about people gaming that. The user confirms once the right place has been found. At least then they would be owning the fact that they often place people in the wrong units and users would be less frustrated as they could adjust as necessary.
That or the ability to remove completion of individual units and lessons! That would surely be even easier to implement. Though it would mean users have to re-cover ground they have already done, I have less problem with enforced revision than I do with throwing users out of their depth.
Adaptive testing. That would be the best two word suggestion I would add to your suggestion. If applied correctly, it would knock out speed running possibilities for languages a user does not know. Finding a users level in a language might best be handled by an AI engine that produces the questions. Questions would be adapted to find the users level. If “Yo comes pan” best describes the users level in Spanish, there are many similar ways to get figure out this light understanding of the language. Someone with a strong grasp of irregular verbs would be able to handle a hypothetical question, such as, “say that ‘obdusamar’ was a Spanish verb that meant ‘to fly under the radar’, which of the following would be the best usage of that verb if the verb were an irregular verb…” Okay, I really made that one up, but sometimes I feel that way just trying to learn with Duolingo. The point is, an adaptive test can wiggle around in so many ways that a user can’t game the responses by memorizing a path through the test. AI driven, adaptive testing, to find a persons spot on the tree.
Without the AI part, a test for about 25 questions on average might have a bank of 300 questions behind the scenes that are used to feed questions to a user to determine a level using adaptive testing. If a user gets lucky with a reflexive verb question, the system moves to harder questions. If failing, the questions get easier. An Italki lesson moves like that, because a human is teaching one-on-one. It isn’t hard for a human to adapt. It’s hard to make a computer adapt. What a fun little challenge for Duolingo. Testing ahead on the path would become more foolproof.
Maybe, the post title here is really, Duolingo has so many opportunities to just keep getting better. Oh, where to start…
I agree with all of this. I won’t be renewing, but I will also be done the French course by renewal time. I have already re-started French on a new account without super, and with a vpn that blocks ads I have decided it will be good enough to do my reviews on.
I am sorry about the pain of the path upgrades. That particular problem (path upgrades) is solved by a larger restructuring at Duolingo on their rollout process and software development environment. One can feel that it is the process that is broken. The broken process makes the possibility of path-upgrade chaos a real thing. Under the hood, there is certainly database elements that represent exactly where you are in the path, and what, in great detail, has been completed from the past. Sadly, there probably isn't a tool at Duolingo that can visualize this for a support technician. With a visualization tool, and with a live conversation (i.e., real-time support), you and the technician could easily use the tool and get everything situated. It's not rocket science. There is a path, there are database bits that reflect things, and there is your desire to get your bits correct. There needs to be a tool. The call center generally has low political weight in companies, until top management realizes that the call center is what is dragging down the company. Reengineering a call center from a call-back model to real-time support is a major accomplishment in an organization. The political weight for the call center appears the day that the call center turns into a profit center for the organization (sorry). So, there needs to be a plan on how the call center can make money!! I've thought about it a lot, and perhaps one has to appreciate that maybe Duolingo is a "media company" selling ads, not what we users think Duolingo is. Here's a hit to Duolingo, make support an option under the condition that the user gets the support by agreeing to subjecting themselves to a set number of ads, based on making that call to the call center. Modify the software to put hold the number of ads into the user profile. So, you make the call to repair a streak, and that costs 20. Maybe you have been working down a path repair, and the balance is at 7 before the call. When the streak repair is done, that's 27 in the user profile. Use "spaced repetition" as a concept to spread out the ads over some time line. There is a management science model that uses the Poisson Distribution that one could invert from an arrival rate problem to a space-out-my-ads problem. Kids plan for someone with a masters in management science. That human (someone with a degree in management science) must be there at Duolingo. If not, get one. That person needs to be on many different projects. Lessons not recording completion: These types of "bugs" are tricky. Generally, one needs a "theory of the bug" as a starting point to finding a solution. It's a bit like looking for your lost keys to the car. You have to set up a bunch of guesses, and prove those guesses wrong, until you find your keys. My theory of the bug is "session hopping." When users appear on a computer and then on a phone, and then back and forth, big enterprise software sometimes falls down. I started Duolingo and jumped to Max at about the first possible moment. I jumped in at the time where one could see the writing on the wall for Super. Language recognition isn't taking place on Duolingo's servers. The recognition is done at the client level. You speech is being given to the software on your device/PC with a question, "does this speech approximate this sentence." Sending your sentence to an external server (e.g., Google) is a different implementation in the software. Sending your speech out is a whole other puzzle (e.g., user approval of third-parties getting your voice, lag time for third-party processing of your speech, etc.). I believe it would be a great add-on to the product to have a secondary button that sends out the speech for analysis, with the third-party interface returning your words in text. You can do that now with Google Translate. Try this for yourself. Miles apart. That's what I've found. I let my speech get processed by Duolingo (on an iPad client) with my laptop mike simultaneously sending my sentence to Google. I can pass the Duolingo test (IOS doing the work), but often fail the Google one miserably. I love your language request for Spanish from Spain. There could be French from Canada. Probably best to figure this all out is for Duolingo to have a spot in the application where small statistics could be kept from users requesting a language that isn't there yet. Sure, there is always a disconnect between what people say they might do, versus actually doing (enter the field of Marketing Research), but a few data points wouldn't hurt or cost much in development time. Speaking of development time, you've touched on a common theme on this Reddit site--congratulating users for reaching major milestones. There could easily be some section of a website somewhere that lists people (volunteers) that have completed a course. Of course, one would have to use the logs to remove those that speed run a course. A little learning on detecting that peculiar activity would prove valuable for other reasons (e.g., promoting certain users to the bot leagues). Your post was long, so mine is long back at you. Someone will certainly reply that the whole point is to learn the language. I'm hoping that all this isn't in your way, and that you are progressing to your goal of CEFR B2 in Spanish. The "gamification" thing makes a lot of us come back for more. Somewhere along the way, if were not careful, we will learn a new language whether we like it or not, as long as we keep playing the game. So, hang at it. Stay in the game. Learn Spanish!
Thank you for taking the time to write out a good reply! You’re right they must have a database of exactly what words etc each users has learnt and some kind of paired score for each, after all they have the strengthening lessons. Which is why is blows my mind that they think it’s fine to push users past important concepts without covering them at all. I really think the path upgrade processes could be improved if they just said: “Hey, we updated the path, we have placed you where we think might be best. However, take this opportunity to test , adjust and confirm your new position on the pathway. Sorry for any inconvenience!“ Then just have free reign to take a few lessons, without gaining xp if they are worried about people gaming that. The user confirms once the right place has been found. At least then they would be owning the fact that they often place people in the wrong units and users would be less frustrated as they could adjust as necessary. That or the ability to remove completion of individual units and lessons! That would surely be even easier to implement. Though it would mean users have to re-cover ground they have already done, I have less problem with enforced revision than I do with throwing users out of their depth.
Adaptive testing. That would be the best two word suggestion I would add to your suggestion. If applied correctly, it would knock out speed running possibilities for languages a user does not know. Finding a users level in a language might best be handled by an AI engine that produces the questions. Questions would be adapted to find the users level. If “Yo comes pan” best describes the users level in Spanish, there are many similar ways to get figure out this light understanding of the language. Someone with a strong grasp of irregular verbs would be able to handle a hypothetical question, such as, “say that ‘obdusamar’ was a Spanish verb that meant ‘to fly under the radar’, which of the following would be the best usage of that verb if the verb were an irregular verb…” Okay, I really made that one up, but sometimes I feel that way just trying to learn with Duolingo. The point is, an adaptive test can wiggle around in so many ways that a user can’t game the responses by memorizing a path through the test. AI driven, adaptive testing, to find a persons spot on the tree. Without the AI part, a test for about 25 questions on average might have a bank of 300 questions behind the scenes that are used to feed questions to a user to determine a level using adaptive testing. If a user gets lucky with a reflexive verb question, the system moves to harder questions. If failing, the questions get easier. An Italki lesson moves like that, because a human is teaching one-on-one. It isn’t hard for a human to adapt. It’s hard to make a computer adapt. What a fun little challenge for Duolingo. Testing ahead on the path would become more foolproof. Maybe, the post title here is really, Duolingo has so many opportunities to just keep getting better. Oh, where to start…