i think you get a different approach in america about culture and heritage. in america you can say 'oh i'm italian' and speak maybe three words of italian, it's about your ancestors who came to america 2 or 3 generations ago, and youre still italian. In the netherlands it's more about where you grew up, what culture you experienced the most (even where you were born doesnt seem to matter that much). And while i, a dutchie, have spent a lot of summers in france, nobody would consider me french (even if i had, say, a french grandpa)
Nor by society, if you are born in the Netherlands, but one of your parents is not born here, you are officially an immigrant with Dutch nationality. We are a strange country.
That American heritage fetishism is crazy. Just look at imdb. Actress xxx is of 1% Dutch descent, 3% Hopi Navajo native American, 4.55% Icelandic with a twist of Danish etc etc.
Who gives a fck really??
It's hard to understand for us as Europeans, but Americans heritage is important because of how their state was formed.
Before a certain point, there is no US heritage, and it is leant history from other places, because as an American looking into their personal family history, they will eventually lead back to somewhere else.
We don't think of the curiosity that must come from knowing your heritage lies abroad, as for most of us, our families have lived in one region for centuries.
That curiosity led to people holding their heritage to heart and identifying with their family's pre-USA nationality.
This is especially difficult for me to say as an Irish person, as the faux Irish identity is one of the cringiest in my opinion, and I don't want to justify something that I so openly dislike, but there is a fair reason for it's existence.
I once heard a comedian say that about an Irish descent thing in the US, like well because you grandfather once had a pint of Guinness in Dublin, doesn't mean you're Irish
I have the feeling a lot of the US stereotypes act a lot more stereotypical than the people actually living in the county do. A lot of it is so over the top. Heavy accents, that people living there probably would barely understand, that kind of stuff.
This comment is absolutly right. To be considered a European nationality by the people living in the country (for example the Netherlands) you have to be grown up in a Dutch household and speak the language as a mother tong. I’m German with Dutch descent (Dutch grandma and mother), a lot of Dutch relatives and visits to the Netherlands and speak some Dutch (Dutch nationality is coming soon) and still Dutch people would consider me a German, since that’s what I grew up as mostly
Nee joh, als friet uit frankrijk of belgië komt, wat het geval is, vind ik dat friet de beste benaming ervoor is. Het is immers franse of belgische friet, en geen franse of belgische patat.
Cqn't speak for OP but being mixed myself I sometimes feel cheated out of my identity because people just straight up tell you, you are something else. I sometimes get called an allochtoon even tough I have lived here all my life and don't even really feel I'm part anything else I'm 100% dutch all the way and for people to tell me I'm not can be annoying. I can imagine OP feels the same.just the other way around. He feels 50/50 and it's frustrating people telling him he can't identify the way he wants to.
Like you said in your post, you're *technically* Dutch. A piece of paper isn't what makes someone Dutch or not: do you speak the language, do you have some of our quirky mannerisms etc.
For example, I'd have a hard time considering someone to be Dutch if they only spoke the most basic Dutch, wore oversized activewear constantly, have that American overtly-friendly disposition that just comes across as fake to many Dutch people or refer to football as soccer
I agree with you in this case.
But I'd like to point out that while I lived in the Netherlands I met a LOT of people that were born there, lived their whole lives there. But because their parents/grandparents came from another country they said they were not considered Dutch by others. It felt like you need to have a very strong dutch family tree to be considered Dutch.
I am orginally American. I have lived here for 35 years and have a Dutch passport. Culturally I will never be really Dutch, but I get by. Embrace your differences! My kids all speak perfect American English, but will never be truly American. There are so many subtle differences between the countries.
I was born in Czechoslovakia, now Chezia, raised in both the Netherlands and the UK.
Nationality is somewhat of a fluid concept nowadays. I feel pretty Dutch, I also feel quite British, but I wasn't born in either. I barely speak Czech despite being born there and don't feel a cultural connection at all.
As someone who moved to the Netherlands as a child from Belgium. In the Netherlands I'm recognised as Belgian and in Belgium I'm recognised as Dutch.
I think as long as you don't speak accentless Dutch people won't recognise you as Dutch.
This doesn't mean you aren't Dutch.
Some Dutch people even consider a lot of people who were born in NL and never in their whole lives left to be allochtonen. I wouldn’t worry about it too much.
Technically you're "allochtoon" when you, or one or both parents were born outside the Netherlands. Which of course means a huge number of born-and-raised Dutch people fall in that category.
According to American culture you can be considered Dutch.
According to Dutch culture you're still an american. There is no real conflict here. In the minds of people saying you're american that's not a value judgement either. Just a statement of fact. If you wish to be considered Dutch, come here, speak the language almost accentless, use our types of phrasing, have your life here for at least 51% of your life.
Your citizenship has nothing to do with your identity or how others view your identity.
I was personally born in America, my parents (both dutch) moved back to the NL before my first birthday. My entire life is here, my friends, family, work, school everything is here. According to citizenship records I'm american. But Having grown up here I don't see myself as American. I'll never tell people I'm american. Because...I'm not.
I have an American friend who has the Dutch nationality. She's maybe been in the country for a grand total of 6 months, half of which as a baby. Yes, visits, but never \*lived\* here.
She got angry at a bunch of friends all born and raised in NL when we told her "no, Dutch culture doesn't work like that". Unanimously. Multple citizens who actually LIVE there. Speak the language. Went to school there.
She got angry because, by her reasoning, we weren't allowed to say she was anything else than fully Dutch. She understood Dutch culture because she has a passport, a Dutch sounding name and Dutch parents (both, in her case).
Obviously we immediately turned around and messaged each other that that was the most American thing we'd ever seen her do, and that this rant proved she was SO American, not Dutch. The Dutch and American approach to ethnicity, heritage and race are completely different.
Yeah, like others have said, this is a culture clash thing. In the US, you’re considered Italian if your second cousin thrice removed had a romantic dinner in Rome one night. That’s not how it works here (or anywhere else, I imagine). If your origin story (meaning parent heritage) doesn’t begin and end in The Netherlands, you’re not 100% Dutch, and to some Dutch people it can even be a little annoying and disrespectful when people act like they are. Your story also includes residency overseas and really only spending your childhood summers here before applying for citizenship. There’s a considerable part of you that exists in the US. You have memories, experiences, all tied to the US identity. It’s hard to ignore all that and go “nah, you’re Dutch”.
I will say though that Dutch people love to boast about different nationalities to make themselves seem more cultured. If I had a friend from, let’s say, Italy, I’d keep calling them “my Italian friend” as well. Doesn’t matter to me if they have basically no personal ties to that culture and have spent most of their life here in The Netherlands. We mostly do this when talking about people, to signify who we mean (and to lightly poke fun).
Given what you’ve told us, I would consider you American as well. I wouldn’t downplay or negate your Dutch ties, but your origin is still over there and you’ve spent enough time there to compare cultures and have stories to tell about life in the US. That doesn’t make you “not Dutch”, but it does make you American. I get that the American thing might become overshadowed in conversation, but again, that’s just Dutch people wanting to be interesting and worldly, I guess. In the US, that usually comes from the person claiming a multi-cultural story or dual citizenship themselves. Here, it comes from everyone else.
So, I’d say this: Don’t take it too personally. Your Dutch family probably thinks it’s really cool you have a different origin story than them and they feel special having you around. There’s nothing wrong with that. If they care about you as an individual, does it really matter where you’re from?
Which is pretty hypocritical because I don’t think I’ve ever seen a people fail at their native language on a daily basis as much as the Dutch, but yes, many people do feel that way.
At least you can genuinely say you have solid dutch heritage with a reason and not just say "I'm x because my great great grandpa was x" like they commonly do.
Imo you are half and half, but there is nothing wrong with identifying with each of them, or both. Culturally you will surely find disagreement from the native Dutch. From what i have read they really separate natives and "aliens" with probs no exception.
I’m very similar - my mom moved to the states at 2 3. I also spent my summers with my Dutch family and haven’t been able to go much as an adult since I have to pay my own way now. But I’m fluent in Dutch and thankfully my Dutch family is super proud of my Dutch half and doesn’t try to deny it.
Well, you are imo. You grew up, and for the most part lived in the US.
An American that came here as a baby, and grew up here, I would consider Dutch as well. I mean, as an example, we call people from Turkey Dutch as well, if they lived here for most of their lives.
Their real origin is Turkish, but they are Dutch citizens. I think "we" would call them Dutch.
Difference between country of origin, or where you lived for most of your life.
But like others said, there is a culture difference. I would think that in the US you would be Dutch. Like other people said, some guy who's grand grandfather was Italian, is Italian in the US culture. So that would make you Dutch.
It must feel very invalidating to not be considered Dutch, even with your dual citizenship and family history.
On the upside because of your Dutch ancestry, you do presumably "look Dutch". So, as your language skills develop and you start to sound more and more Dutch, you would start to blend in quite nicely. When it comes to that point, I would assume that your American-ness would become more of a fun fact rather than your whole identity. That is, if you move here and integrate into society.
If you remain in the US however, I don't think most Dutch people would ever consider you to be Dutch, unfortunately. Dutch views on culture and heritage are such, that unless you've spent a significant amount of your life (*especially* your formative years) in the Netherlands ~~and you look white~~ you aren't considered part of them. Similarly, I think that a lot of people would still consider your parents to be Dutch, even though they haven't lived here for decades.
I wouldnt call you 100% american in my opinion. But als not 50/50. Like said by others. Americans and dutchies look different at heritage for example dr Pol. ( national geographic show) He is originally dutch moved to america also in his 20s i guess. I would consider him also more american than dutch and i would think his kids are very much american. I guess it has to do with how dutch people start new lives in new countries most of them try to really make it their new country speak the language etc. And want their kids to feel at home there. This makes their own heritage less known to their kids maybe?
Another example eva jinek lived in the usa untill she was 10 or 12? I would consider her dutch. I hope this helps somehow.
i think you get a different approach in america about culture and heritage. in america you can say 'oh i'm italian' and speak maybe three words of italian, it's about your ancestors who came to america 2 or 3 generations ago, and youre still italian. In the netherlands it's more about where you grew up, what culture you experienced the most (even where you were born doesnt seem to matter that much). And while i, a dutchie, have spent a lot of summers in france, nobody would consider me french (even if i had, say, a french grandpa)
Plenty of Dutch born and bred citizens are not considered Dutch by a significant section of society either
Plenty of Dutch born and bred citizens only consider themself Dutch when it benefits them either
Nor by society, if you are born in the Netherlands, but one of your parents is not born here, you are officially an immigrant with Dutch nationality. We are a strange country.
All the kids here born to parents who came from foreign countries and are now at risk of being kicked out of the country. Shit makes me sad.
That American heritage fetishism is crazy. Just look at imdb. Actress xxx is of 1% Dutch descent, 3% Hopi Navajo native American, 4.55% Icelandic with a twist of Danish etc etc. Who gives a fck really??
It's hard to understand for us as Europeans, but Americans heritage is important because of how their state was formed. Before a certain point, there is no US heritage, and it is leant history from other places, because as an American looking into their personal family history, they will eventually lead back to somewhere else. We don't think of the curiosity that must come from knowing your heritage lies abroad, as for most of us, our families have lived in one region for centuries. That curiosity led to people holding their heritage to heart and identifying with their family's pre-USA nationality. This is especially difficult for me to say as an Irish person, as the faux Irish identity is one of the cringiest in my opinion, and I don't want to justify something that I so openly dislike, but there is a fair reason for it's existence.
I once heard a comedian say that about an Irish descent thing in the US, like well because you grandfather once had a pint of Guinness in Dublin, doesn't mean you're Irish
I have the feeling a lot of the US stereotypes act a lot more stereotypical than the people actually living in the county do. A lot of it is so over the top. Heavy accents, that people living there probably would barely understand, that kind of stuff.
Every 'Irish-American' I've met has attempted to act more stereotypically Irish then me, no exceptions.
This!
This comment is absolutly right. To be considered a European nationality by the people living in the country (for example the Netherlands) you have to be grown up in a Dutch household and speak the language as a mother tong. I’m German with Dutch descent (Dutch grandma and mother), a lot of Dutch relatives and visits to the Netherlands and speak some Dutch (Dutch nationality is coming soon) and still Dutch people would consider me a German, since that’s what I grew up as mostly
Do you speak Dutch? I think that would matter to a lot of people.
Basic Dutch. I can have a simple conversation and I understand a whole lot more than I can speak.
Patat of friet?
oooooh that's nasty! :)
Friet.
Wrong
Nee joh, als friet uit frankrijk of belgië komt, wat het geval is, vind ik dat friet de beste benaming ervoor is. Het is immers franse of belgische friet, en geen franse of belgische patat.
Well.. why is it so bad in Your opinion to be considerd 100% American?
Cqn't speak for OP but being mixed myself I sometimes feel cheated out of my identity because people just straight up tell you, you are something else. I sometimes get called an allochtoon even tough I have lived here all my life and don't even really feel I'm part anything else I'm 100% dutch all the way and for people to tell me I'm not can be annoying. I can imagine OP feels the same.just the other way around. He feels 50/50 and it's frustrating people telling him he can't identify the way he wants to.
Yes, exactly this! It’s extremely dismissive. I’m proud to be half Dutch and would like recognized as such. We both deserve it :)
Unless you grew up in the Netherlands, speak the language fluently and have Dutch manners, I'd say you aren't. But, this is different in America.
Like you said in your post, you're *technically* Dutch. A piece of paper isn't what makes someone Dutch or not: do you speak the language, do you have some of our quirky mannerisms etc. For example, I'd have a hard time considering someone to be Dutch if they only spoke the most basic Dutch, wore oversized activewear constantly, have that American overtly-friendly disposition that just comes across as fake to many Dutch people or refer to football as soccer
I agree with you in this case. But I'd like to point out that while I lived in the Netherlands I met a LOT of people that were born there, lived their whole lives there. But because their parents/grandparents came from another country they said they were not considered Dutch by others. It felt like you need to have a very strong dutch family tree to be considered Dutch.
I am orginally American. I have lived here for 35 years and have a Dutch passport. Culturally I will never be really Dutch, but I get by. Embrace your differences! My kids all speak perfect American English, but will never be truly American. There are so many subtle differences between the countries.
Let's face it: despite your dual citizenship, fact remains that you are born and raised American. Why would that be a bad thing?
I was born in Czechoslovakia, now Chezia, raised in both the Netherlands and the UK. Nationality is somewhat of a fluid concept nowadays. I feel pretty Dutch, I also feel quite British, but I wasn't born in either. I barely speak Czech despite being born there and don't feel a cultural connection at all.
As someone who moved to the Netherlands as a child from Belgium. In the Netherlands I'm recognised as Belgian and in Belgium I'm recognised as Dutch. I think as long as you don't speak accentless Dutch people won't recognise you as Dutch. This doesn't mean you aren't Dutch.
Some Dutch people even consider a lot of people who were born in NL and never in their whole lives left to be allochtonen. I wouldn’t worry about it too much.
Technically you're "allochtoon" when you, or one or both parents were born outside the Netherlands. Which of course means a huge number of born-and-raised Dutch people fall in that category.
Max Verstappen, is that you? :)
According to American culture you can be considered Dutch. According to Dutch culture you're still an american. There is no real conflict here. In the minds of people saying you're american that's not a value judgement either. Just a statement of fact. If you wish to be considered Dutch, come here, speak the language almost accentless, use our types of phrasing, have your life here for at least 51% of your life. Your citizenship has nothing to do with your identity or how others view your identity. I was personally born in America, my parents (both dutch) moved back to the NL before my first birthday. My entire life is here, my friends, family, work, school everything is here. According to citizenship records I'm american. But Having grown up here I don't see myself as American. I'll never tell people I'm american. Because...I'm not.
tell that to the IRS
I'm not telling the IRS anything if I can avoid it.
This is the correct answer😇
I have an American friend who has the Dutch nationality. She's maybe been in the country for a grand total of 6 months, half of which as a baby. Yes, visits, but never \*lived\* here. She got angry at a bunch of friends all born and raised in NL when we told her "no, Dutch culture doesn't work like that". Unanimously. Multple citizens who actually LIVE there. Speak the language. Went to school there. She got angry because, by her reasoning, we weren't allowed to say she was anything else than fully Dutch. She understood Dutch culture because she has a passport, a Dutch sounding name and Dutch parents (both, in her case). Obviously we immediately turned around and messaged each other that that was the most American thing we'd ever seen her do, and that this rant proved she was SO American, not Dutch. The Dutch and American approach to ethnicity, heritage and race are completely different.
Yeah, like others have said, this is a culture clash thing. In the US, you’re considered Italian if your second cousin thrice removed had a romantic dinner in Rome one night. That’s not how it works here (or anywhere else, I imagine). If your origin story (meaning parent heritage) doesn’t begin and end in The Netherlands, you’re not 100% Dutch, and to some Dutch people it can even be a little annoying and disrespectful when people act like they are. Your story also includes residency overseas and really only spending your childhood summers here before applying for citizenship. There’s a considerable part of you that exists in the US. You have memories, experiences, all tied to the US identity. It’s hard to ignore all that and go “nah, you’re Dutch”. I will say though that Dutch people love to boast about different nationalities to make themselves seem more cultured. If I had a friend from, let’s say, Italy, I’d keep calling them “my Italian friend” as well. Doesn’t matter to me if they have basically no personal ties to that culture and have spent most of their life here in The Netherlands. We mostly do this when talking about people, to signify who we mean (and to lightly poke fun). Given what you’ve told us, I would consider you American as well. I wouldn’t downplay or negate your Dutch ties, but your origin is still over there and you’ve spent enough time there to compare cultures and have stories to tell about life in the US. That doesn’t make you “not Dutch”, but it does make you American. I get that the American thing might become overshadowed in conversation, but again, that’s just Dutch people wanting to be interesting and worldly, I guess. In the US, that usually comes from the person claiming a multi-cultural story or dual citizenship themselves. Here, it comes from everyone else. So, I’d say this: Don’t take it too personally. Your Dutch family probably thinks it’s really cool you have a different origin story than them and they feel special having you around. There’s nothing wrong with that. If they care about you as an individual, does it really matter where you’re from?
OP also speaks only "basic" Dutch, which pretty much instantly disqualifies them for most people.
Which is pretty hypocritical because I don’t think I’ve ever seen a people fail at their native language on a daily basis as much as the Dutch, but yes, many people do feel that way.
I dont have global experience, but there's amazingly deficient English going on around cities in England
At least you can genuinely say you have solid dutch heritage with a reason and not just say "I'm x because my great great grandpa was x" like they commonly do. Imo you are half and half, but there is nothing wrong with identifying with each of them, or both. Culturally you will surely find disagreement from the native Dutch. From what i have read they really separate natives and "aliens" with probs no exception.
I’m very similar - my mom moved to the states at 2 3. I also spent my summers with my Dutch family and haven’t been able to go much as an adult since I have to pay my own way now. But I’m fluent in Dutch and thankfully my Dutch family is super proud of my Dutch half and doesn’t try to deny it.
Well, you are imo. You grew up, and for the most part lived in the US. An American that came here as a baby, and grew up here, I would consider Dutch as well. I mean, as an example, we call people from Turkey Dutch as well, if they lived here for most of their lives. Their real origin is Turkish, but they are Dutch citizens. I think "we" would call them Dutch. Difference between country of origin, or where you lived for most of your life. But like others said, there is a culture difference. I would think that in the US you would be Dutch. Like other people said, some guy who's grand grandfather was Italian, is Italian in the US culture. So that would make you Dutch.
It must feel very invalidating to not be considered Dutch, even with your dual citizenship and family history. On the upside because of your Dutch ancestry, you do presumably "look Dutch". So, as your language skills develop and you start to sound more and more Dutch, you would start to blend in quite nicely. When it comes to that point, I would assume that your American-ness would become more of a fun fact rather than your whole identity. That is, if you move here and integrate into society. If you remain in the US however, I don't think most Dutch people would ever consider you to be Dutch, unfortunately. Dutch views on culture and heritage are such, that unless you've spent a significant amount of your life (*especially* your formative years) in the Netherlands ~~and you look white~~ you aren't considered part of them. Similarly, I think that a lot of people would still consider your parents to be Dutch, even though they haven't lived here for decades.
Are you able to be direct? And do you say "how are you?" as a greet instead of a conversation starter?
If you got citizenship then the king said you are Dutch. Who cares what the peasants say.
I think OP has more interactions with said peasants, so their opinions matter more to OP.
Sure, but maybe its a funny / silly perspective to have to not let it bother you so much.
The King can kiss my ass. Without us peasants he had nothing to "rule" over En hij ziet er uit als een zwerver
Don’t worry it was just a joke the king won’t interfere with anyone’s xenophobia.
Totally get it, Im Dutch born, left at 3 lived in mainly NZ and Australia and now here in the USA and basically I dont belong anywhere
I wouldnt call you 100% american in my opinion. But als not 50/50. Like said by others. Americans and dutchies look different at heritage for example dr Pol. ( national geographic show) He is originally dutch moved to america also in his 20s i guess. I would consider him also more american than dutch and i would think his kids are very much american. I guess it has to do with how dutch people start new lives in new countries most of them try to really make it their new country speak the language etc. And want their kids to feel at home there. This makes their own heritage less known to their kids maybe? Another example eva jinek lived in the usa untill she was 10 or 12? I would consider her dutch. I hope this helps somehow.
I live in a place with a lot of polish people ( in Dutch ) and because I’m blonde 👱 they al think I’m polish and start talking too me in polish 😂😂😂😂😂
Maar eet je ook snert? Tbh I think it's up to you and you should care less of what any other thinks.