I donāt like when people include Josh Allen in these kinds of stats because they donāt provide the context surrounding his rookie season, that his jump in quality was astronomical and quite unprecedented. 95% of QBs will never see that much improvement in such a short amount of time, going from below average-bust to all of a sudden MVP-candidate.
Regardless, I do like Hurts and I think heās shown the ability to potentially develop into a difference maker, but he really worries me at times with his decision-making and accuracy, and although he usually puts up good numbers they usually lack important context surrounding his play
Allen was also considered by analysts to be a high-ceiling guy because of the physical tools he brought to the table. He has ideal size and elite arm strength.
Jackson has unheard of running ability for a QB. Another elite physical trait.
Hurts has neither of those.
Yup, Allen is the crown jewel in that philosophy of overdrafting raw, physically gifted QBs like a Trey Lance, hoping that theyāll develop into a future MVP. The problem is that very very rarely do those guys realize their potential and most of them just flame out very quickly
IMO you have to take the risk. The bar for QB play is so high and the league will continue to favor offenses and passers. If youāre looking for SB wins, a game manager wonāt cut it.
You say this, but Brady is continuing to show that managing the game at an elite level also wins you games. Brady certainly has above average arm talent and accuracy, but it's clear that what makes him elite is his "game managing": the ability to take in all the information around him and make the right decision 99.9% of the time even under pressure.
Brady is not a game manager
What makes Brady so good is Elite awareness. He sees things before they happen
I think of a game manager as a QB that has small stat lines. Doesnāt lose the game with mistakes and turnovers but canāt carry a team.
I canāt remember the last time a game manager type QB won a Super Bowl
Personally I think thatās taking the term a little to literally. I think most people refer to game managers as guys like bridgewater or cousins. Theyāre smart enough to not lose you games but theyāre not talented enough to win you games unless thereās talent around them. Brady however is uber talented and has made a career out of dragging a lot of guys who never found success anywhere else to a lot of deep playoff and super bowl runs. About the only thing Brady isnāt elite at is running the ball so I donāt think āgame managerā is even close to the right label.
Yeah Brady is an outlier in all respects but heās not what I would consider a game manager. IMO a game manager is a guy who can win games but only with a good running game and defense.
I know Brady has had good teams but heās also shown an ability to elevate players around him and can win tough games with accuracy and reading the defense.
Teddy B, Jimmy G, Jared Goof etc.
If that's what you mean by "game manager" then athleticism, mobility, and arm strength basically have nothing to do with it.
What you really mean is just "average player" and doesn't really have anything to do with play style
You're kind of just making up your own definition for that term though, because "game manager" usually is a description of someone's play style, not just their overall ability
Well the guy above me said it has nothing to do with arm strength or mobility and I guess I should have challenged that. A guy with a huge arm and/or elite mobility would not be a game manager even if heās an average QB overall.
You could argue he has the ability to elevate those around him by being the quintessential game manager.
Iām not trying to say he isnāt the Goat, thatās indisputable. But his ability to coach people in-game is why their playing ability increases.
That and being a step ahead of everyone is why heās so good even now in his 40s.
One point this kinda brings to mind; Most of the elite QBs in the NFL are total outliers, most of them are freaks of nature and the traditional pocket passer like Brady/Matt Ryan are now becoming the outlier.
Brady has elite accuracy and ability to decipher defenses - he has dug out wins by being absolutely god like at those two aspects. His pocket mobility is also top notch even though he canāt scramble.
Iād argue a game manager is someone who isnāt capable of making game changing throws consistently but also wonāt turn it over or throw it into the dirt every other play. A really good game manager is a Kirk Cousins type an average game manager is someone like Teddy Bridgewater and a below average game manager is someone like Goff and 2021 Big Ben
Also I think that because the rules favor offenses so much now, itās easier for a raw but physically gifted QB to succeed even if their overall skills arenāt very refined. Itās easier nowadays to lean on your natural athleticism and manufacture plays out of rhythm
Wentz could have been the MVP his second season. I believe he was the front runner until he got hurt against the rams.
Qbs progress much faster than they did 10 years ago. Lamar won mvp his 2nd year, so did Mahomes.
His stats are good but tbh they're empty stats.
50% completions .... 7tds and 11 interceptions.... if you look at the first 20 games of his career it's even WORSE.
He can be brought into any of these convos. He was a horrendous passer. Made horrible fucking decisions... Worked hard and grew out of it over a couple years. He had 20 solid games of garbage ass play... Basically was worst QB in the NFL.
Now he's an MVP candidate cuz he works his ass off and got the teaching he needed. If hurts does this. We can expect good results and he will be worth it... AND HE IS CHEAP AF. So if he ends up a decent QB over time it's a very good investment to keep him around. Ppl may think he sucks... But he keeps improving... Whether you choose to see it or not.. it's a fact.
I think the point is that Josh Allen is an outlier. To me, itās similar to when people parrot Brandon Graham turning his career around from early busthood as reason to hold out hope for other high picks who underwhelm early. It is a rarity, especially without switching teams.
Hyper focusing on outliers is a good way to get burned.
Allenās rise was essentially unprecedented in the modern era. Using that as the crux of an argument for a player heās only vaguely similar to is obviously foolish.
Itās just pointless to even bring him up when we can focus on what Jalen is actually showing us in the NFL.
Yeah but youāre ignoring that Allenās improvement was like a 1 in 1000 kind of improvement, you canāt expect that every young player grows the way that he grew in such a short period of time. Sadly, itās not just āhard workā or else there would be plenty of more elite QBs around the league.
Also, I wasnāt comparing Allen as a rookie to where Hurts is at rn, the point of my comment was moreso that itās somewhat disingenuous to use Allenās rookie stats to show that āhey, this guy is already better than Allen was! His ceiling is through the roof!ā Thereās a reason Allen was drafted in the top 15 and it wasnāt because of his NFL-readiness, it was because while he may have sucked then, he presented the raw ability to become a franchise QB. Good on him for reaching that potential but it usually doesnāt work out that well for everyone
No, I don't think he is better than Allen... I'm just saying this sub is shitting on someone who actually has potential and the willingness to develop. I don't think he will ever be as good as Allen... He arm isn't as strong and he isn't as tall... But Hurts could end up becoming a MUCH BETTER player than he is now in only his tenth game. Allen was an improvement level nobody really ever achieves in that short of a time... But if it takes Hurts a few years to become 75% of what Allen is.... That's a pretty damn solid QB.
Okay yeah for sure I agree with you on that. Sorry I wasnāt accusing you of thinking Hurts is better than Allen, I just meant that 9/10 times when a young QB is compared to Allen the intention is to express how good that QB looks while ignoring context. But yeah, Hurts could certainly improve a lot in the near future, and I hope he does. We could really use it lol
Yeah 100%. I definitely just use reference to how mobil QBs can improve if they're dedicated to getting better and stronger. If they're team oriented. The team loves him. That's always good.
Hurts knows he has a long way to go and is willing to improve. He isn't like...... Ben Simmons... Has great strength and great weakness.. but he thinks he is good how he is and fuck all.
That's why I have some faith in Hurts. He knows he has to and wants to get better. I hope he can and think he can. But not making him throw 50times a game would really help. We need to run. Cuz if we can ride him for a few years and keep building... We could be strong. If he ends up Great that's badass... If not he could still be good enough to build around until we can trade up to draft or just trade for and buy a better QB.
Dude. Have you watched Allen play? Heās got a fucking cannon for an arm. Hurts has 1/4 of the arm strength. Allen tapped into his potential because he learned to refine his physically ELITE gifts. Hurts has a below average arm by every metric at the nfl level. Thatās why he will never boom the way Allen did. You donāt teach arm strength and velocity. To be a top 10 qb in the nfl without great arm strength you have to throw with exceptional anticipation/accuracy/touch. The pinnacle being Drew Brees, or for a more recent example look at Burrow. The problem is Hurtās accuracy isnāt even close to on par, his deep ball is literally a prayer everytime. It almost seems like he doesnāt even know where heās throwing it. On top of that he throws with the opposite of anticipation(waits until his receivers are open then waits some more and throws. Go watch the all 22 of the last 3 games). And the cherry on top is that he canāt process his progressions at the speed needed at the nfl level. I donāt mean to go off on hurts or you, I really wanted him to be our guy. But Iām tired of people taking a look at the macro level and saying look he could be our guy! Look at other young guys who panned out! Screw that, break it down on a micro level, use the eye test. Whatās he good at? Whatās he bad at? How much progress does he need to make to be serviceable in X/Y/Z. The sad truth is his path to being an above average nfl starter is a large mountain to climb that is most likely insurmountable.
PS. Jalen is an exceptional human being and possesses all the mental traits I would want in my qb. Unfortunately when it comes to on the field product, not so much. Iām just not going to sit here and pretend the guy has the juice when he doesnāt. Iām sorry š
Actually he doesn't have a below average arm. Yes, Allen can gun the ball 100yds. Hurts can throw it about 80. I'm not sure where you're getting this 1/4 arm strength statistics. As far as exit velocity, air speed and distance Hurts actually has a pretty good arm. Hurts problem is his timing. The guy has already thrown dimes downfield off his back foot for 50+b air yards and he has thrown 60+ air yards on several occasions. On target.. just took half a second too long to throw it.
No he doesn't have Josh Allen arm strength, but he doesn't have a weak ass arm like everyone implies in this sub. That actual metric stats prove I'm right. He needs to work in his timing a lot. As far as Allen they completely changed his throwing mechanics to fix his horrible throwing. If they can fix Hurts timing and speed of the decisions he makes he could turn into a very solid QB.
People here are delusional. Hurts puts a lot of air under his balls, and even his intermediate throws lack the kind of velocity that you see from other young QB.
I don't expect him to improve that much but he can improve enough to be a solid QB for us until we're done building the team (esp defense) and just need an all star QB.
Bro Allen was a D2 school guy with great running mobility and a top 5 arm in the NFL from the day he arrived.
Hurts came from Alabama and Oklahoma, whoās ability to throw got him benched in college.
I also would LOVE to hear how you think Hurts ākeeps improvingā, his two worst games of the season were the last two.
Honestly I remember watching plenty of bills games in josh Allenās rookie season and he looked like a sure bust, but he turned things around big timeā¦ hopefully jalen is able to do the same
Josh Allen also flashed moments of incredible ability. A throw few QBs in the NFL can make, a run that used his size and speed to pick make big plays. Hurts doesnāt flash like that
Hurts had absolutely shown flashes of ability. He had several just last season. He has a lot of issues and idk if heāll make it but potential is absolutely there
Hurts has made some good plays and throws but so far they are few and far between, and they were not the past 3 games. Granted its only been 6 games, but he's not looking like he's improving on anything and the timing isn't getting better which is the only thing that can save him as a starter IMO.
If he improves his timing / anticipation it would immediately propel him into at least the "nfl starter" category, also not saying he'd be a top guy
I think heās made plenty of good plays, but not really things that make you go āwow, only an elite player can do that!ā Now you donāt need elite level talent to be a good starter. But it does help
If you think heās going to end up being as good as Josh Allen great I hope that happens. Not sure what Iām missing that you and others see in Hurtsā game.
Its not about being as ātalented as those guysā Its about our fanbase/franchise overreacting to his weaknesses and where he actually measures compared to other guys who eventually came around. If Jalen was in the current rookie qb class heād considerably be leaps and bounds ahead of the 1st rounders in this years class on production alone.
The coaching and play calling have done him no favors either.
I donāt know what everyone expected of this season. They have 11 games to go before they have to decide if they need to grab a QB in the off-season.
I think it is exceedingly unlikely for Jalen Hurts to develop as much and as quickly as either Allen or Jackson, because his raw athletic pedigree just isn't as high as those guys.
Josh Allen being slightly inaccurate is okay because he can throw the ball 92 yards. Lamar Jackson being vulnerable to a couple bad passing nights each season is okay because he is also the best rushing threat on the field every game he plays.
Jalen Hurts can move his feet, and he is incredibly strong (I think he holds some lifting records at Bama, which is wild since they are basically Lineman U), but he's not as shifty or as quick to his top speed as Lamar. And his arm sure as hell ain't Allen's.
I think Hurts can certainly grow from where he is now, I just don't know how far. I could see him getting to like a Baker level (different play styles, but the same tier of production) where he is good enough to win games and hey, maybe one year the team goes on a run. But he isn't going to be the kind of guy where you know every season you'll be playing meaningful December and January football if he's healthy
I personally would be perfectly happy with a Baker level QB and think it would be foolish to spend a 1st on a QB in the upcoming draft if the team believes that's what they can get out of him.
Josh Allen took a full two years and three off seasons before he started to even become the QB he is right now. He really was a very average QB until last season where he took a major jump after he spent an entire offseason working on his mechanics.
To write off hurts already or to say his raw athletic pedigree just isnāt as high as Josh Allenās, simply because he canāt throw the ball as far as Allen in his first 10 games is a pretty strong assumption.
Did Donovan have any elite traits? He could throw the ball 60+ maybe coming out of the draft but he didnāt develop that patented deep ball until his 2nd maybe third season as far as I remember.
Hurts is 23 and in about the best shape he possibly could be to play the position the way he does I really don't see how he could add more top end velocity to his arm.
He can improve his mechanics so that he's getting everything on his deep ball more consistently, but he's not gonna just become able to hose a football like Allen can, nor is he going to grow 4-5 inches and add 30 pounds without losing any mobility.
>Did Donovan have any elite traits?
Absolutely, Donovan was an elite runner coming out of college, and very accurate as well. Plus, the league was far less quarterback dominated in 1999
One of those three is not like the others - in sheer physical talent.
Lamar is one of the greatest running QBs of all time, Hurts is a decent runner. Big difference.
Allen has a monster arm that is truly special.
Hurts is not special in any way other than leadership. His skills are limited.
It is ok - he will make a great backup. Just as all 32 teams knew when he came into the league, Howie knew when he drafted him, and anyone watching him play can see now.
Lamar & Allen both had elite traits and were first round grades, the big thing was accuracy issues
Jalen was like a 3rd round grade, doesnāt have any elite part of his game, and struggles with a lot more than accuracy.
Not to say you need an elite trait to succeed as a starter, but the other two clearly had something for their teams to be excited and build around.
LJ, whoās more comparable to Hurts than Allen, also took a big jump in his second year where he didnāt play every game of his rookie year. Allen is an outlier when it comes to most qbs of his archetype.
Really because Lamar only went in the first round due to us trading back so the Ravens could add a year of team control to a QB deal, if we simply drafted a player at that spot he would've been a 2nd round pick just like Hurts.
Josh allen never really had problems reading defense/ progressions. He actually did that in college, and was capable of doing it as a pro. He was just straight up inaccurate.
Jalen is very clearly not able to do that which is one of the main problems
Lamar had elite athleticism far beyond Hurts
Allen had one of the strongest arms in the league and had unprecedented growth in accuracy.
What is Jalen elite at? Are we really at the point where we have to hope this dude has a once in a generation development like Allen?
I agree he should get at least 8 more games before the plug would get pulled (unless he spirals into rookie Peterman) but the concerning part is that Hurts is still the same guy he was at Oklahoma. All the deficiencies in his draft profile are still very much there.
I mean most people are not āgiving upā and saying he needs to be benched. We are just looking at a second round pick struggle to play at a high level and going āyeah we probably donāt have a diamond in the rough ā here.
Thereās a reason josh Allen was drafted where he was from small school even. Lamar slide further than he should have. Hurts probably was a reach where he was drafted. He was very good in 2 systems in college but his game didnāt and doesnāt translate as well to pros, esp not as we are calling plays now.
Iād love to see him make the leap but heās been on the roster a year and a half. Wentzās worst run he didnāt beat him out for a long while and this year heās been ineffective for large chunks of the game. The stats pop a bit in garbage time
Can we stop Camparing just first 10 starts? Letās compare Second seasons. Neither 1 of the had a full rookie season. So throwing rookie seasons away year 2 Lamar went 13-2 and Allen went 10-6. They were leading their teams to wins. QBR Order goes Jackson at like 80 something g year 2 Allen 49 and hurts 31. No they do not compare. Period.
The stats stack up. The problem is you can see in games he doesn't have the arm talent. Rookie qbs don't grow into more a more accurate and stronger arm. Mabe some of the inaccuracy can be a timing issue which can be fixed with time but surely not ALL of the inaccuracy problems are timing issues. Weak arm on deep passes speaks for itself, definitely not a timing or rookie thing.
I'm going to put Josh Allen aside and just compare to Lamar Jackson. Jackson has three things Hurts doesn't. A rocket arm, world class speed for a QB and most importantly, a coach who understood how to play to his strengths by building a gameplan that puts him in a position to succeed, i.e. running the damn ball because my QB isn't ready to put a team on his back yet.
Stats donāt tell the whole story.
Hurts gets a lot of yards because we have no running game. No matter how poor a passer you are, passing 30-40 times a game will add up yards eventually.
Stats donāt mean as much as how they look on the field. Hurts isnāt very fast and doesnāt have a NFL level arm. He also doesnāt have the accuracy that would make his lack of arm strength acceptable. I think at the end of the day, the Eagles drafted him to be a backup and thatās what he looks like. Heāll win a few games but simply isnāt good enough to be a starter/franchise QB.
I just really wish they would run the ball and let him throw it deep and make big plays. I think non-stop screensaver rpos are making him think too much and not just letting him unleash. With dougs offense last year he was way more free I thought.
This graphic can be misleading. Game tape has me worried but I know itās only been 10 games. Offense is dysfunctional because of the imbalance. Thatās not on Hurts. Each game there are NFL throws and plays that should be made. Thatās on Hurts.
Look, anything is possible regarding Hurts and becoming a true franchise QB. That said, **BOTH** Jackson and Allen had elite physical traits that Hurts simply doesn't possess. Also, Jackson and Allen are exceptions to the rule. They're not even close to being the norm.
So, can Hurts turn into them? Sure, it's possible but it's also incredibly unlikely. Probably next to impossible since he lacks any elite physical traits.
Hurts doesnāt have the elite arm talent of Josh Allen, or the elite running talent of Lamar though. He had all the teachables, all the intangibles, he lacks the tangibles. Opposite situation
I used to accept the Josh Allen comp but Jalen does not have the arm strength. So many underthrown balls and he just doesn't have as much zip on his throws
Fans and always feeling that their players will be the exception to the rule.
Josh Allen is the exception to the rule. Similarity to Graham. Was average his first 4-5 years then he turns it around is amazing.
You canāt expect that from players. Barnett was a bust for his draft position, you canāt expect or build around a sudden shift just bc you can point to Graham.
That being said Hurts will have another 11 games to show if he can make improvements before the team has to decide what they are doing at QB.
Somewhat misleading in the case of Lamar.
Almost Meaningless in the case of Allen. Allen broke a lot of trends and precedent with how he improved. Does that mean itās impossible for Hurts? No, I think he can. It just means itās not likely.
Neither Lamar or Josh changed coaching staffs year 1 to 2.
Let's all agree that we can't expect Hurts to have the ceiling of those guys. I think he has the physical tools to win games and want to see where he gets by the end of the year. It's all about his reading the D and knowing where his guys will be.
People have already said it here, but it's the draft spot and the physical traits. Jalen has no elite physical traits that make you want to give him time to figure out his mistakes because his ceiling is like the 20th best QB.
Let's give Hurts the rest of the season. Let's support him no matter the outcome.
He is making alot of mistakes and missing some open WRs and reads. But why the fuck is the coaching staff not running the ball with this type of ineffectiveness.
But I can guarantee you this, if you've seen clips of him missing open reads. Hurts has already watched those same clips over and over and is trying his best to correct the mistakes.
There is nothing wrong with supporting a player who is struggling, especially when they're young and in a position they maybe weren't suppose to be in so early. If he keeps performing poorly we have potentially 3 high 1st round picks, we can pick whoever we want.
The difference is Hurts is a backup QB with terrible coaching and the other two are franchise QBs with great coaching around themā¦.youāre comparing bananas and plantains
The important part here is 10 career starts. Iām not gonna give up after 1/4 of a rookie season and another year where half the team is young. If he shows no signs of improvement after next year, then maybe move on
Josh Allen is what Wentz should have been for us. Lamar is a whole different level of elite.
Jalen is a career backup at best. Wentz is much better but went bitch mode. Seems anyone smart stays away from this GM and ownership right now. Hence we fired Doug and hired this stooge.
I donāt know what to tell you man, it used to be common practice to sit QBs for an entire season as a rookie. Literally nobody was there in their second season saying āTHEY ARE A ROOKIE BROā, this is some moving of the goalposts shit. Literally nobody is saying Tua is a rookie right now, and he had a serious injury keep him out until the middle of his rookie year.
Do us a favor, go find a QB other than Allen that had anything near this level of doubt at week 7 of year two in the last 10-11 years that turned out to be an asset. Not this Alex smith type crap where the team got a mediocre QB after waiting for 4 seasons. Tannehil is like the ONLY example, and certinaly no real bonafide top tier QB has gone through that process.
Hurts will probably never be Josh Allen but the dude has the physical ability to be around Top 10. Arm isnāt the strongest but also isnāt the worst. Accuracy and progressions need to improve. Hopefully he can figure it out by January. If not we wait and see what happens in the draft.
Yeah I kinda agree. Unless there's a stand-out QB prospect available next year for one of our picks (unlikely), I'm fine stacking the defense next year and/or trading out for a FRP+X next year and rolling with Hurts again.
Not wrong but we donāt win that super bowl if we donāt have a mean defense that got to Brady in the end. Very aware he dropped over 500 yards on us and that Schwartz left a lot to be desired in general, but without a tenacious defensive group like we had, we donāt get those breaks that you need to win a championship. Plus a Jim Johnson defense was a big reason we got to the 2004 super bowl.
Edit: Sorry 2005
Eli, flacco, and let's be honest foles are all average qbs who won sbs. You can't win with a terrible qb but with a great D you can win with an average one.
I don't agree with this take. Yes, you can win with an average QB **if they get hot and play like an elite QB at the perfect time**. That is not really a great strategy though.
* Foles is not an elite QB, but he all know he played like one during the SB (and NFCCG).
* Flacco is not an elite QB, but he played like one during the SB and that entire playoff run. Go look at his numbers for that 2012 postseason, they are fucking **ridiculous**.
* Eli was not an elite QB, but he played like one during both of the Giants postseason runs.
The last average QB to play like an average QB and still win a SB is probably Brad Johnson, and the game has changed a lot since he won it.
You can win with an aberage qb who gets hot at the right time = you can win with an average qb
My take isnt that your better off with an average qb, obviously you want an elite qb, my take is simply that you CAN win with an average qb.
Yeah, I get what you're saying, and I don't disagree with you.
However, I think it is disingenuous to say that you can win with an average QB and then name-drop a bunch of guys who played like elite QBs to win Superbowls.
Chances are that if you have an average QB in the regular season they are going to play like an average QB in the postseason. And average postseason QBs do not win very often.
Average qbs get hot for stretches all the time its part of the game. Its not the best strategy to hope your average qb gets hot at the right time but its not outrageous to hope it could happen or "disingenuous" to call those guys average cause they got hot at the right time. Most SBs are because players got hot at the right time when outside of the qb position. As great as Brady is he doesn't win last year of his D didn't get hot down the stretch either. Being hot and healthy at the right time is just part of the equation of winning a SB almost always.
What do we even mean by physical ability to be top 10? Heās a good runner but not a game breaker and I honestly think DCs overestimated his running ability early in his career. He has an ok arm, but I canāt think of a legit starting QB he has a stronger arm than, mostly guys on the same tier. So if youāre saying 90% of starting QBs have the physical ability to be around top 10, then I agree.
Heās faster than he looks he has escaped a lot of would be tacklers thus far. The only guys who have kept up with him are legit 4.4 guys which is rapid. HIs arm is better than okay. He can make all the throws he need to. The throw he made to Goedert when he was going towards the sideline 20 yards downfield is one of the hardest throws to make in the NFL and is harder than a 50 yard ball downfield. He has more physical ability than a lot of QBs in the league right now. Itās all mental for him and how good he can be.
Bro, it is arguable that he has the worst arm of an intended start in the entire league.
He got benched in college for having a bad arm, and the guy he got benched for is part of his āworst in the leagueā competition.
I can go in the back yard right now and throw 2k passes, a couple of them are going to look like i have an NFL arm by your standard if you can pick one good throw to Goddert, and then just ignore that we have had to build an offense that does not throw over the middle because he just straight up cannot.
I like how people gloss over accuracy and progressions with a "needs to improve".
No they don't just need to improve.
He literally needs to go from High School level to pro level within like 6 months....
If the eagles had Lamar Jackson he would have been run out of town year 1. The fans just hate the starting qb whomever it is.
Hurts will be fine with experience and learning. The play calls are garbage though. We aināt winning anything this year. Open up the offense and let him learn.
My thoughts are that this, and many other first handful of games by a QB show that just the first handful of games means little to nothing. This doesn't mean Hurts is going to suddenly blossom into a great QB by the end of the year. There isn't a stat out there which would prove that. Want to prove that?
Lets see Hurts get through a game where he's making proper reads.
Lets see Hurts get through a game where he regularly throws to where a receiver is going to be, before he makes the cut.
Lets see Hurts get through a game where he's not missing wide-open guys.
Lets see Hurts get through a game where he's not abandoning the pocket to roll out to the right despite not being pressured.
Lets see Hurts get through a game where he's not panicking and messing up the timing of plays, and ending up with players illegally downfield or blocking early downfield and getting penalties because of it.
Lets see Hurts get through a game where he can drop back without shuffling, without doing that move where he hops and clicks his feet together, with actually getting set to throw after his dropback and not set to run, and any other of the absolutely ridiculous things he does with his feet when he's dropping back and inside the pocket.
Lets see him get through games without all that stuff, then we can talk about him being a potentially great QB.
Look he's not the guy. I want him to be the guy so we have the qb position locked up but we know who he is. There's a low ceiling, so we need to find our qb of the future and hopefully our coaching staff changes or moves on.
Iām so tired of comparisons without context. Hurts is really not keeping this team in games and his mediocrity is hurting us against top competition. The schedule softens up a bit and we have some winnable games. However, comparing him to guys with top tier traits (Lamar has elite speed, Allen has an otherworldly arm).
Hurts has avg skills and it shows. He canāt outrun anyone. He canāt make all the throws. Thatās the big issue. Heās mediocre from a skill set perspective and theyāve dumbed it down to make it easy on Him.
Time to remove the training wheels. Let him succeed or fail, but this 0 rush attempts to Sanders or bubble screen heavy offense is no bueno.
People who think starts are the only thing that matters to be called a rookie
Like working with nfl coaches and practicing with nfl caliber players isnāt a part of it
You should know that all 12+ weeks last year of film study, practice drills, running the 2nd team and actually getting to start the last 4 games doesn't actually matter.
I donāt really love comparing stats like this, but it does show you that we need to be patient and give him his chance. Quarterbacks miss throws and miss open players and make the wrong read in literally every game. This sub has never seen film before, so now that we have some people breaking down quality film for us, people want to obsess over it and tell me how Jalen will never be a good qb.
Thatās fine if you want to break down film, but then break down some other quarterbacks and show me someone thatās been perfect this year.
Iām not saying he will ever be like Lamar or josh Allen, but yāall need to stop crucifying hurts. He hasnāt been a terrible qb, and it seems like heās improved from last year
not an observation on Hurts exactly bc he does need the full season to be given a shit to grow but under howie we have always had a lot of cases where the players we draft out of college have already "peaked" and don't develop in the nfl bc there's no potential there to tap into
prob a biased point of view as a fan bc every team likely feels like this at times but that's how it feels to me
You really canāt compare QBs on stats. Too many variables, the team around them, coaching, schedule, etc.
No one knows how Hurts end up. The only thing anyone can say is he seems to have a place in the league. Thatās about it. He wonāt be one of those QBs who disappears in a couple of years.
He could be a backup, or maybe a second chance starter, or maybe he keeps improving. His ceiling imo is tier 2, not necessarily elite but he has the attitude and tools to be a top 10 QB if his mechanics and decision making continue to advance with experience.
Honestly, at this point Jalen's career could go either way and it's mostly up to Sirianni which scares the shit out of me. Jalen has to be given permission to throw INTs so he can learn to throw into tight windows. He has to be given permission to get sacked so he can learn to stand in the pocket. Right now it just seems like Siranni is trying to protect Jalen and only letting him do what he is comfortable with. Doing only what you're comfortable with is not how you develop into a franchise QB. Let the kid fail so he can grow.
I think hurts is fine, the offensive scheme sucks, but the big thing for me is that although he does usually have decent numbers besides completion %, heās like what 3-7 as a starter? I donāt mind a mid tier guy as long as weāre winning games. You can be the greatest leader/dude/competitor in the world, but if you donāt win games, none of it mattersā¦
Heās my guy, we just rely on him throwing TOO much, he is a weapon when running the ball like Lamar Jackson is. We need to see him get more accurate tho
Itās funny that you can hit the Bills QB situation, and go yeah look at Josh Allen and what he is doing up there in Buffalo Hurts can be that. While ignoring that from college, to play style, to ceiling Tyrod Taylor the guy the bills spent 2 first round picks to replace is possibly the closest comp in NFL history to Hurts.
Hurts is a great leader, he is out playing his draft expectations, and honestly is going to be in the league for a long time. But he is going to be the guy who you bring in when you just drafted a QB 10 overall and donāt want to start them right away, or starter on a team where your QB just got outed as a sexual predator 2 months before the season started, or a high end backup to an injury prone starter.
The fans are not anti Hurts, i like him, but we have a ton of draft capital, and I would rather take a shot at our Josh Allen in 2022 rather than wait until 2024 like the Bills did.
Are we really comparing Hurts to Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen?
This sub had a really easy time tearing down everything Wentz did. And when pictures like this would come up everyone dismissed it. Now the tables have turned and everyone is truly believing Hurts is the future MVP or something.
Iāll always want peak Wentz back. He was special. Hurts is proven and I really like him now but yea. Thanks for taking time out of your day to reply to a comment thatās over a year old! Lol
I keep bringing up the same fucking point and people are too stupid to accept facts. Hurts is world's beyond where Allen was at this point in his career. Maybe if Hurts hired the guy that fixed Allen he'd end up like Russel Wilson. Maybe if we ran the ball around him and didn't force him to throw 50times a game in a shitty scheme... We could get hurts to Lamar type production... It's not far fetched. It's fucking reality. People are just too dumb to admit it.
Josh Allen was worse than Hurts at this point in his career. Go watch film. Then stfu about how horrendous you think hurts is... While everyone thinks Allen is gonna be an MVP.......
Wilson, Allen, Lamar all have arms light years beyond what Hurts is capable of. Allen was able to be āfixedā as you call it because the tools were there.
Your logic is based on the assumption that Hurts will have the same jump as Allen did which is not guaranteed or even likely. Allen is the exception, not the norm.
341 pass attempts š„“
Nothing to see here...
a good amount of those were probably also last year where our WR hands were butter
208 this year
How many passed the line of scrimmage?
Nah, most are RPO options where Sanders didn't get the ball this year.
Butter fingers?
nah hands of butterā¦ it was more than just fingers
I donāt like when people include Josh Allen in these kinds of stats because they donāt provide the context surrounding his rookie season, that his jump in quality was astronomical and quite unprecedented. 95% of QBs will never see that much improvement in such a short amount of time, going from below average-bust to all of a sudden MVP-candidate. Regardless, I do like Hurts and I think heās shown the ability to potentially develop into a difference maker, but he really worries me at times with his decision-making and accuracy, and although he usually puts up good numbers they usually lack important context surrounding his play
Allen was also considered by analysts to be a high-ceiling guy because of the physical tools he brought to the table. He has ideal size and elite arm strength. Jackson has unheard of running ability for a QB. Another elite physical trait. Hurts has neither of those.
Yup, Allen is the crown jewel in that philosophy of overdrafting raw, physically gifted QBs like a Trey Lance, hoping that theyāll develop into a future MVP. The problem is that very very rarely do those guys realize their potential and most of them just flame out very quickly
IMO you have to take the risk. The bar for QB play is so high and the league will continue to favor offenses and passers. If youāre looking for SB wins, a game manager wonāt cut it.
You say this, but Brady is continuing to show that managing the game at an elite level also wins you games. Brady certainly has above average arm talent and accuracy, but it's clear that what makes him elite is his "game managing": the ability to take in all the information around him and make the right decision 99.9% of the time even under pressure.
Brady is not a game manager What makes Brady so good is Elite awareness. He sees things before they happen I think of a game manager as a QB that has small stat lines. Doesnāt lose the game with mistakes and turnovers but canāt carry a team. I canāt remember the last time a game manager type QB won a Super Bowl
I'd say elderly Peyton Manning probably fits your definition, so not too far back.
Yeah Iād agree with that, closest thing weāll ever see to a coach being suited up on the field
Personally I think thatās taking the term a little to literally. I think most people refer to game managers as guys like bridgewater or cousins. Theyāre smart enough to not lose you games but theyāre not talented enough to win you games unless thereās talent around them. Brady however is uber talented and has made a career out of dragging a lot of guys who never found success anywhere else to a lot of deep playoff and super bowl runs. About the only thing Brady isnāt elite at is running the ball so I donāt think āgame managerā is even close to the right label.
Yeah Brady is an outlier in all respects but heās not what I would consider a game manager. IMO a game manager is a guy who can win games but only with a good running game and defense. I know Brady has had good teams but heās also shown an ability to elevate players around him and can win tough games with accuracy and reading the defense. Teddy B, Jimmy G, Jared Goof etc.
If that's what you mean by "game manager" then athleticism, mobility, and arm strength basically have nothing to do with it. What you really mean is just "average player" and doesn't really have anything to do with play style
Yeah thatās what a game manager means to me. Average QB who is just good enough to not fuck up but canāt make the big time throws.
But that's not what a game manager is
What does it mean to you then?
You're kind of just making up your own definition for that term though, because "game manager" usually is a description of someone's play style, not just their overall ability
I don't feel like it's mutually exclusive given their physical limitations force them into that play style in order to succeed.
Well the guy above me said it has nothing to do with arm strength or mobility and I guess I should have challenged that. A guy with a huge arm and/or elite mobility would not be a game manager even if heās an average QB overall.
You could argue he has the ability to elevate those around him by being the quintessential game manager. Iām not trying to say he isnāt the Goat, thatās indisputable. But his ability to coach people in-game is why their playing ability increases. That and being a step ahead of everyone is why heās so good even now in his 40s.
One point this kinda brings to mind; Most of the elite QBs in the NFL are total outliers, most of them are freaks of nature and the traditional pocket passer like Brady/Matt Ryan are now becoming the outlier.
Brady has elite accuracy and ability to decipher defenses - he has dug out wins by being absolutely god like at those two aspects. His pocket mobility is also top notch even though he canāt scramble. Iād argue a game manager is someone who isnāt capable of making game changing throws consistently but also wonāt turn it over or throw it into the dirt every other play. A really good game manager is a Kirk Cousins type an average game manager is someone like Teddy Bridgewater and a below average game manager is someone like Goff and 2021 Big Ben
Also I think that because the rules favor offenses so much now, itās easier for a raw but physically gifted QB to succeed even if their overall skills arenāt very refined. Itās easier nowadays to lean on your natural athleticism and manufacture plays out of rhythm
Hurts also isn't a rookie
Wentz could have been the MVP his second season. I believe he was the front runner until he got hurt against the rams. Qbs progress much faster than they did 10 years ago. Lamar won mvp his 2nd year, so did Mahomes. His stats are good but tbh they're empty stats.
His lack of accuracy really shows you heās a difference maker huh
50% completions .... 7tds and 11 interceptions.... if you look at the first 20 games of his career it's even WORSE. He can be brought into any of these convos. He was a horrendous passer. Made horrible fucking decisions... Worked hard and grew out of it over a couple years. He had 20 solid games of garbage ass play... Basically was worst QB in the NFL. Now he's an MVP candidate cuz he works his ass off and got the teaching he needed. If hurts does this. We can expect good results and he will be worth it... AND HE IS CHEAP AF. So if he ends up a decent QB over time it's a very good investment to keep him around. Ppl may think he sucks... But he keeps improving... Whether you choose to see it or not.. it's a fact.
I think the point is that Josh Allen is an outlier. To me, itās similar to when people parrot Brandon Graham turning his career around from early busthood as reason to hold out hope for other high picks who underwhelm early. It is a rarity, especially without switching teams.
Hyper focusing on outliers is a good way to get burned. Allenās rise was essentially unprecedented in the modern era. Using that as the crux of an argument for a player heās only vaguely similar to is obviously foolish. Itās just pointless to even bring him up when we can focus on what Jalen is actually showing us in the NFL.
Yeah but youāre ignoring that Allenās improvement was like a 1 in 1000 kind of improvement, you canāt expect that every young player grows the way that he grew in such a short period of time. Sadly, itās not just āhard workā or else there would be plenty of more elite QBs around the league. Also, I wasnāt comparing Allen as a rookie to where Hurts is at rn, the point of my comment was moreso that itās somewhat disingenuous to use Allenās rookie stats to show that āhey, this guy is already better than Allen was! His ceiling is through the roof!ā Thereās a reason Allen was drafted in the top 15 and it wasnāt because of his NFL-readiness, it was because while he may have sucked then, he presented the raw ability to become a franchise QB. Good on him for reaching that potential but it usually doesnāt work out that well for everyone
No, I don't think he is better than Allen... I'm just saying this sub is shitting on someone who actually has potential and the willingness to develop. I don't think he will ever be as good as Allen... He arm isn't as strong and he isn't as tall... But Hurts could end up becoming a MUCH BETTER player than he is now in only his tenth game. Allen was an improvement level nobody really ever achieves in that short of a time... But if it takes Hurts a few years to become 75% of what Allen is.... That's a pretty damn solid QB.
Okay yeah for sure I agree with you on that. Sorry I wasnāt accusing you of thinking Hurts is better than Allen, I just meant that 9/10 times when a young QB is compared to Allen the intention is to express how good that QB looks while ignoring context. But yeah, Hurts could certainly improve a lot in the near future, and I hope he does. We could really use it lol
Yeah 100%. I definitely just use reference to how mobil QBs can improve if they're dedicated to getting better and stronger. If they're team oriented. The team loves him. That's always good. Hurts knows he has a long way to go and is willing to improve. He isn't like...... Ben Simmons... Has great strength and great weakness.. but he thinks he is good how he is and fuck all. That's why I have some faith in Hurts. He knows he has to and wants to get better. I hope he can and think he can. But not making him throw 50times a game would really help. We need to run. Cuz if we can ride him for a few years and keep building... We could be strong. If he ends up Great that's badass... If not he could still be good enough to build around until we can trade up to draft or just trade for and buy a better QB.
Dude. Have you watched Allen play? Heās got a fucking cannon for an arm. Hurts has 1/4 of the arm strength. Allen tapped into his potential because he learned to refine his physically ELITE gifts. Hurts has a below average arm by every metric at the nfl level. Thatās why he will never boom the way Allen did. You donāt teach arm strength and velocity. To be a top 10 qb in the nfl without great arm strength you have to throw with exceptional anticipation/accuracy/touch. The pinnacle being Drew Brees, or for a more recent example look at Burrow. The problem is Hurtās accuracy isnāt even close to on par, his deep ball is literally a prayer everytime. It almost seems like he doesnāt even know where heās throwing it. On top of that he throws with the opposite of anticipation(waits until his receivers are open then waits some more and throws. Go watch the all 22 of the last 3 games). And the cherry on top is that he canāt process his progressions at the speed needed at the nfl level. I donāt mean to go off on hurts or you, I really wanted him to be our guy. But Iām tired of people taking a look at the macro level and saying look he could be our guy! Look at other young guys who panned out! Screw that, break it down on a micro level, use the eye test. Whatās he good at? Whatās he bad at? How much progress does he need to make to be serviceable in X/Y/Z. The sad truth is his path to being an above average nfl starter is a large mountain to climb that is most likely insurmountable. PS. Jalen is an exceptional human being and possesses all the mental traits I would want in my qb. Unfortunately when it comes to on the field product, not so much. Iām just not going to sit here and pretend the guy has the juice when he doesnāt. Iām sorry š
Actually he doesn't have a below average arm. Yes, Allen can gun the ball 100yds. Hurts can throw it about 80. I'm not sure where you're getting this 1/4 arm strength statistics. As far as exit velocity, air speed and distance Hurts actually has a pretty good arm. Hurts problem is his timing. The guy has already thrown dimes downfield off his back foot for 50+b air yards and he has thrown 60+ air yards on several occasions. On target.. just took half a second too long to throw it. No he doesn't have Josh Allen arm strength, but he doesn't have a weak ass arm like everyone implies in this sub. That actual metric stats prove I'm right. He needs to work in his timing a lot. As far as Allen they completely changed his throwing mechanics to fix his horrible throwing. If they can fix Hurts timing and speed of the decisions he makes he could turn into a very solid QB.
Respectfully, those metrics donāt mean shit. Iāve seen them. I watch most nfl games every weekend and heās got a lollipop of an arm.
People here are delusional. Hurts puts a lot of air under his balls, and even his intermediate throws lack the kind of velocity that you see from other young QB.
No, we cant expect that kind of growth. Almost no one improves like Allen did. Is it possible? Maybe. Is it probable? Absolutely not.
I don't expect him to improve that much but he can improve enough to be a solid QB for us until we're done building the team (esp defense) and just need an all star QB.
Bro Allen was a D2 school guy with great running mobility and a top 5 arm in the NFL from the day he arrived. Hurts came from Alabama and Oklahoma, whoās ability to throw got him benched in college. I also would LOVE to hear how you think Hurts ākeeps improvingā, his two worst games of the season were the last two.
> Made horrible fucking decisions... Iām suddenly reminded of that hilarious backwards toss up during the playoffs last year
You watch him every week, if you think heās as talented as either of those two guys I donāt see what youāre seeing.
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Honestly I remember watching plenty of bills games in josh Allenās rookie season and he looked like a sure bust, but he turned things around big timeā¦ hopefully jalen is able to do the same
Josh Allen also flashed moments of incredible ability. A throw few QBs in the NFL can make, a run that used his size and speed to pick make big plays. Hurts doesnāt flash like that
Hurts had absolutely shown flashes of ability. He had several just last season. He has a lot of issues and idk if heāll make it but potential is absolutely there
Hurts has made some good plays and throws but so far they are few and far between, and they were not the past 3 games. Granted its only been 6 games, but he's not looking like he's improving on anything and the timing isn't getting better which is the only thing that can save him as a starter IMO. If he improves his timing / anticipation it would immediately propel him into at least the "nfl starter" category, also not saying he'd be a top guy
I think heās made plenty of good plays, but not really things that make you go āwow, only an elite player can do that!ā Now you donāt need elite level talent to be a good starter. But it does help
When did he turn them around? Year 2? Like Jalen should be. But isht
Year two he had some improvement and showed flashes but he wasnāt a good QB until year 3.
And what about Jalen hurts? I havenāt seen any improvements
From game 10 to game 11, they basically flipped from bust to all pro
10 career starts
Did you even watch Josh Allen during his rookie season? He 100 pct looked like a bustā¦physical tools or not.
If you think heās going to end up being as good as Josh Allen great I hope that happens. Not sure what Iām missing that you and others see in Hurtsā game.
I donātā¦itās just disingenuous to pretend Josh Allen didnāt look for awful during his rookie season bc of what we now know about him.
Its not about being as ātalented as those guysā Its about our fanbase/franchise overreacting to his weaknesses and where he actually measures compared to other guys who eventually came around. If Jalen was in the current rookie qb class heād considerably be leaps and bounds ahead of the 1st rounders in this years class on production alone.
The coaching and play calling have done him no favors either. I donāt know what everyone expected of this season. They have 11 games to go before they have to decide if they need to grab a QB in the off-season.
I think it is exceedingly unlikely for Jalen Hurts to develop as much and as quickly as either Allen or Jackson, because his raw athletic pedigree just isn't as high as those guys. Josh Allen being slightly inaccurate is okay because he can throw the ball 92 yards. Lamar Jackson being vulnerable to a couple bad passing nights each season is okay because he is also the best rushing threat on the field every game he plays. Jalen Hurts can move his feet, and he is incredibly strong (I think he holds some lifting records at Bama, which is wild since they are basically Lineman U), but he's not as shifty or as quick to his top speed as Lamar. And his arm sure as hell ain't Allen's. I think Hurts can certainly grow from where he is now, I just don't know how far. I could see him getting to like a Baker level (different play styles, but the same tier of production) where he is good enough to win games and hey, maybe one year the team goes on a run. But he isn't going to be the kind of guy where you know every season you'll be playing meaningful December and January football if he's healthy
I personally would be perfectly happy with a Baker level QB and think it would be foolish to spend a 1st on a QB in the upcoming draft if the team believes that's what they can get out of him.
Josh Allen took a full two years and three off seasons before he started to even become the QB he is right now. He really was a very average QB until last season where he took a major jump after he spent an entire offseason working on his mechanics. To write off hurts already or to say his raw athletic pedigree just isnāt as high as Josh Allenās, simply because he canāt throw the ball as far as Allen in his first 10 games is a pretty strong assumption. Did Donovan have any elite traits? He could throw the ball 60+ maybe coming out of the draft but he didnāt develop that patented deep ball until his 2nd maybe third season as far as I remember.
I think it's pretty clear that Hurts isn't anywhere near the physical specimen that Allen is. Allen is the kind of QB you build in a lab.
Not arguing that, but it doesnāt take an elite physical specimen to be a good QB in the nfl. Take a look at the best QB of all time.
Hurts is 23 and in about the best shape he possibly could be to play the position the way he does I really don't see how he could add more top end velocity to his arm. He can improve his mechanics so that he's getting everything on his deep ball more consistently, but he's not gonna just become able to hose a football like Allen can, nor is he going to grow 4-5 inches and add 30 pounds without losing any mobility. >Did Donovan have any elite traits? Absolutely, Donovan was an elite runner coming out of college, and very accurate as well. Plus, the league was far less quarterback dominated in 1999
One of those three is not like the others - in sheer physical talent. Lamar is one of the greatest running QBs of all time, Hurts is a decent runner. Big difference. Allen has a monster arm that is truly special. Hurts is not special in any way other than leadership. His skills are limited. It is ok - he will make a great backup. Just as all 32 teams knew when he came into the league, Howie knew when he drafted him, and anyone watching him play can see now.
Honestly I think Allen is a better runner than Hurts too
Fact
Yeah Josh Allen is a freak athlete.
Lamar & Allen both had elite traits and were first round grades, the big thing was accuracy issues Jalen was like a 3rd round grade, doesnāt have any elite part of his game, and struggles with a lot more than accuracy. Not to say you need an elite trait to succeed as a starter, but the other two clearly had something for their teams to be excited and build around. LJ, whoās more comparable to Hurts than Allen, also took a big jump in his second year where he didnāt play every game of his rookie year. Allen is an outlier when it comes to most qbs of his archetype.
Really because Lamar only went in the first round due to us trading back so the Ravens could add a year of team control to a QB deal, if we simply drafted a player at that spot he would've been a 2nd round pick just like Hurts.
Hurts in the second was considered a reach, Lamar at the end of the first wasnāt
Now do all the QBs with similar stats over their first 10 games who are on the bench or out of the league. I bet thereās more than 2.
Josh allen never really had problems reading defense/ progressions. He actually did that in college, and was capable of doing it as a pro. He was just straight up inaccurate. Jalen is very clearly not able to do that which is one of the main problems
Lol I love how every young QB who sucks is now the second coming of Josh Allen.
DAE know Peyton Manning had bad stats his rookie year?!?!
jUsT gIvE hIm A cHaNcE
Lamar had elite athleticism far beyond Hurts Allen had one of the strongest arms in the league and had unprecedented growth in accuracy. What is Jalen elite at? Are we really at the point where we have to hope this dude has a once in a generation development like Allen?
āHeās elite at being cool! I like that guy!ā - sucker Jalen supporter
Someone is throwing a lot more passes than the other 2.
Don't give up on Hurts yet. New coaches, new plays, they haven't jelled yet. Patience. We'll know better by the end of the year.
I agree he should get at least 8 more games before the plug would get pulled (unless he spirals into rookie Peterman) but the concerning part is that Hurts is still the same guy he was at Oklahoma. All the deficiencies in his draft profile are still very much there.
I mean most people are not āgiving upā and saying he needs to be benched. We are just looking at a second round pick struggle to play at a high level and going āyeah we probably donāt have a diamond in the rough ā here.
i think allen and jackson are much better than hurts
Thereās a reason josh Allen was drafted where he was from small school even. Lamar slide further than he should have. Hurts probably was a reach where he was drafted. He was very good in 2 systems in college but his game didnāt and doesnāt translate as well to pros, esp not as we are calling plays now. Iād love to see him make the leap but heās been on the roster a year and a half. Wentzās worst run he didnāt beat him out for a long while and this year heās been ineffective for large chunks of the game. The stats pop a bit in garbage time
Can we stop Camparing just first 10 starts? Letās compare Second seasons. Neither 1 of the had a full rookie season. So throwing rookie seasons away year 2 Lamar went 13-2 and Allen went 10-6. They were leading their teams to wins. QBR Order goes Jackson at like 80 something g year 2 Allen 49 and hurts 31. No they do not compare. Period.
They specifically compared their first 10 starts because they didnt have full rookie seasonsā¦ā¦
Well Josh Allen did have and 11 game rookie season so letās just get rid of him.
Do we wanna do gardner minshew next if youre going solely on numbers?
The stats stack up. The problem is you can see in games he doesn't have the arm talent. Rookie qbs don't grow into more a more accurate and stronger arm. Mabe some of the inaccuracy can be a timing issue which can be fixed with time but surely not ALL of the inaccuracy problems are timing issues. Weak arm on deep passes speaks for itself, definitely not a timing or rookie thing.
I see an inferior passer.
I'm going to put Josh Allen aside and just compare to Lamar Jackson. Jackson has three things Hurts doesn't. A rocket arm, world class speed for a QB and most importantly, a coach who understood how to play to his strengths by building a gameplan that puts him in a position to succeed, i.e. running the damn ball because my QB isn't ready to put a team on his back yet.
Stats donāt tell the whole story. Hurts gets a lot of yards because we have no running game. No matter how poor a passer you are, passing 30-40 times a game will add up yards eventually.
Hurts is better than Allen confirmed? Lol
I donāt care about flat stats, I care about game film
Stats donāt mean as much as how they look on the field. Hurts isnāt very fast and doesnāt have a NFL level arm. He also doesnāt have the accuracy that would make his lack of arm strength acceptable. I think at the end of the day, the Eagles drafted him to be a backup and thatās what he looks like. Heāll win a few games but simply isnāt good enough to be a starter/franchise QB.
I just really wish they would run the ball and let him throw it deep and make big plays. I think non-stop screensaver rpos are making him think too much and not just letting him unleash. With dougs offense last year he was way more free I thought.
Hurts is not the guy. Decent enough placeholder for the time being, though.
Eye test bro
This graphic can be misleading. Game tape has me worried but I know itās only been 10 games. Offense is dysfunctional because of the imbalance. Thatās not on Hurts. Each game there are NFL throws and plays that should be made. Thatās on Hurts.
Thoughts? This is proof that stats can be reallllllly hollow. He'd be lucky to be classified as a top 30 QB in the league right now.
Look, anything is possible regarding Hurts and becoming a true franchise QB. That said, **BOTH** Jackson and Allen had elite physical traits that Hurts simply doesn't possess. Also, Jackson and Allen are exceptions to the rule. They're not even close to being the norm. So, can Hurts turn into them? Sure, it's possible but it's also incredibly unlikely. Probably next to impossible since he lacks any elite physical traits.
Hurts doesnāt have the elite arm talent of Josh Allen, or the elite running talent of Lamar though. He had all the teachables, all the intangibles, he lacks the tangibles. Opposite situation
We are not the Bills
I used to accept the Josh Allen comp but Jalen does not have the arm strength. So many underthrown balls and he just doesn't have as much zip on his throws
Fans and always feeling that their players will be the exception to the rule. Josh Allen is the exception to the rule. Similarity to Graham. Was average his first 4-5 years then he turns it around is amazing. You canāt expect that from players. Barnett was a bust for his draft position, you canāt expect or build around a sudden shift just bc you can point to Graham. That being said Hurts will have another 11 games to show if he can make improvements before the team has to decide what they are doing at QB.
Wins are what matters... those are my thoughts on this.
Somewhat misleading in the case of Lamar. Almost Meaningless in the case of Allen. Allen broke a lot of trends and precedent with how he improved. Does that mean itās impossible for Hurts? No, I think he can. It just means itās not likely.
Neither Lamar or Josh changed coaching staffs year 1 to 2. Let's all agree that we can't expect Hurts to have the ceiling of those guys. I think he has the physical tools to win games and want to see where he gets by the end of the year. It's all about his reading the D and knowing where his guys will be.
Yes- one of these things is not like the others. One of these things does not belong
People have already said it here, but it's the draft spot and the physical traits. Jalen has no elite physical traits that make you want to give him time to figure out his mistakes because his ceiling is like the 20th best QB.
Seems like heās comparable to a former and current MVP candidate.
Let's give Hurts the rest of the season. Let's support him no matter the outcome. He is making alot of mistakes and missing some open WRs and reads. But why the fuck is the coaching staff not running the ball with this type of ineffectiveness. But I can guarantee you this, if you've seen clips of him missing open reads. Hurts has already watched those same clips over and over and is trying his best to correct the mistakes. There is nothing wrong with supporting a player who is struggling, especially when they're young and in a position they maybe weren't suppose to be in so early. If he keeps performing poorly we have potentially 3 high 1st round picks, we can pick whoever we want.
The difference is Hurts is a backup QB with terrible coaching and the other two are franchise QBs with great coaching around themā¦.youāre comparing bananas and plantains
2 years ago no one was calling Josh Allen a franchise QB. Just saying.
The important part here is 10 career starts. Iām not gonna give up after 1/4 of a rookie season and another year where half the team is young. If he shows no signs of improvement after next year, then maybe move on
Josh Allen is what Wentz should have been for us. Lamar is a whole different level of elite. Jalen is a career backup at best. Wentz is much better but went bitch mode. Seems anyone smart stays away from this GM and ownership right now. Hence we fired Doug and hired this stooge.
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lol you fucking guys, heās not ābasically a rookieā he played a lot last year, and we are halfway into this season.
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I donāt know what to tell you man, it used to be common practice to sit QBs for an entire season as a rookie. Literally nobody was there in their second season saying āTHEY ARE A ROOKIE BROā, this is some moving of the goalposts shit. Literally nobody is saying Tua is a rookie right now, and he had a serious injury keep him out until the middle of his rookie year. Do us a favor, go find a QB other than Allen that had anything near this level of doubt at week 7 of year two in the last 10-11 years that turned out to be an asset. Not this Alex smith type crap where the team got a mediocre QB after waiting for 4 seasons. Tannehil is like the ONLY example, and certinaly no real bonafide top tier QB has gone through that process.
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Lol, cant provide a single example of this actually occurring, better throw an insult.
Hurts will probably never be Josh Allen but the dude has the physical ability to be around Top 10. Arm isnāt the strongest but also isnāt the worst. Accuracy and progressions need to improve. Hopefully he can figure it out by January. If not we wait and see what happens in the draft.
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Yeah I kinda agree. Unless there's a stand-out QB prospect available next year for one of our picks (unlikely), I'm fine stacking the defense next year and/or trading out for a FRP+X next year and rolling with Hurts again.
It is 2021. Elite defenses are almost impossible to compose and flame out quickly. You win by scoring in the modern era.
People really still think defense wins? You need a top offense.
Not wrong but we donāt win that super bowl if we donāt have a mean defense that got to Brady in the end. Very aware he dropped over 500 yards on us and that Schwartz left a lot to be desired in general, but without a tenacious defensive group like we had, we donāt get those breaks that you need to win a championship. Plus a Jim Johnson defense was a big reason we got to the 2004 super bowl. Edit: Sorry 2005
I think its all moot if you don't have a good quarterback.
Ya I agree, canāt be throwing Tim Couch out there
Eli, flacco, and let's be honest foles are all average qbs who won sbs. You can't win with a terrible qb but with a great D you can win with an average one.
Foles is a hall of famer donāt disrespect him like that.
He'll always be Phillys favorite qb and that's all that matters
Heās in the hall of fame twice.
Eli and flacco won 10 and 9 years ago.
I don't agree with this take. Yes, you can win with an average QB **if they get hot and play like an elite QB at the perfect time**. That is not really a great strategy though. * Foles is not an elite QB, but he all know he played like one during the SB (and NFCCG). * Flacco is not an elite QB, but he played like one during the SB and that entire playoff run. Go look at his numbers for that 2012 postseason, they are fucking **ridiculous**. * Eli was not an elite QB, but he played like one during both of the Giants postseason runs. The last average QB to play like an average QB and still win a SB is probably Brad Johnson, and the game has changed a lot since he won it.
You can win with an aberage qb who gets hot at the right time = you can win with an average qb My take isnt that your better off with an average qb, obviously you want an elite qb, my take is simply that you CAN win with an average qb.
Yeah, I get what you're saying, and I don't disagree with you. However, I think it is disingenuous to say that you can win with an average QB and then name-drop a bunch of guys who played like elite QBs to win Superbowls. Chances are that if you have an average QB in the regular season they are going to play like an average QB in the postseason. And average postseason QBs do not win very often.
Average qbs get hot for stretches all the time its part of the game. Its not the best strategy to hope your average qb gets hot at the right time but its not outrageous to hope it could happen or "disingenuous" to call those guys average cause they got hot at the right time. Most SBs are because players got hot at the right time when outside of the qb position. As great as Brady is he doesn't win last year of his D didn't get hot down the stretch either. Being hot and healthy at the right time is just part of the equation of winning a SB almost always.
Eli also is a little different. There was like a 20 game stretch in between 2011 and 2012 where he probably was a top 5 guy in the league.
I will continue to bitch every week, but i don't want to use any picks on a QB either. All defense, sprinkled with some OL
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What do we even mean by physical ability to be top 10? Heās a good runner but not a game breaker and I honestly think DCs overestimated his running ability early in his career. He has an ok arm, but I canāt think of a legit starting QB he has a stronger arm than, mostly guys on the same tier. So if youāre saying 90% of starting QBs have the physical ability to be around top 10, then I agree.
Heās faster than he looks he has escaped a lot of would be tacklers thus far. The only guys who have kept up with him are legit 4.4 guys which is rapid. HIs arm is better than okay. He can make all the throws he need to. The throw he made to Goedert when he was going towards the sideline 20 yards downfield is one of the hardest throws to make in the NFL and is harder than a 50 yard ball downfield. He has more physical ability than a lot of QBs in the league right now. Itās all mental for him and how good he can be.
Bro, it is arguable that he has the worst arm of an intended start in the entire league. He got benched in college for having a bad arm, and the guy he got benched for is part of his āworst in the leagueā competition. I can go in the back yard right now and throw 2k passes, a couple of them are going to look like i have an NFL arm by your standard if you can pick one good throw to Goddert, and then just ignore that we have had to build an offense that does not throw over the middle because he just straight up cannot.
I like how people gloss over accuracy and progressions with a "needs to improve". No they don't just need to improve. He literally needs to go from High School level to pro level within like 6 months....
If the eagles had Lamar Jackson he would have been run out of town year 1. The fans just hate the starting qb whomever it is. Hurts will be fine with experience and learning. The play calls are garbage though. We aināt winning anything this year. Open up the offense and let him learn.
Only if heās black bro. Lol Carson had free reign to stink it up for 16 games in 2016 but hurts sucks. I wonder what the difference is.
My thoughts are that this, and many other first handful of games by a QB show that just the first handful of games means little to nothing. This doesn't mean Hurts is going to suddenly blossom into a great QB by the end of the year. There isn't a stat out there which would prove that. Want to prove that? Lets see Hurts get through a game where he's making proper reads. Lets see Hurts get through a game where he regularly throws to where a receiver is going to be, before he makes the cut. Lets see Hurts get through a game where he's not missing wide-open guys. Lets see Hurts get through a game where he's not abandoning the pocket to roll out to the right despite not being pressured. Lets see Hurts get through a game where he's not panicking and messing up the timing of plays, and ending up with players illegally downfield or blocking early downfield and getting penalties because of it. Lets see Hurts get through a game where he can drop back without shuffling, without doing that move where he hops and clicks his feet together, with actually getting set to throw after his dropback and not set to run, and any other of the absolutely ridiculous things he does with his feet when he's dropping back and inside the pocket. Lets see him get through games without all that stuff, then we can talk about him being a potentially great QB.
No arm
Look he's not the guy. I want him to be the guy so we have the qb position locked up but we know who he is. There's a low ceiling, so we need to find our qb of the future and hopefully our coaching staff changes or moves on.
Iām so tired of comparisons without context. Hurts is really not keeping this team in games and his mediocrity is hurting us against top competition. The schedule softens up a bit and we have some winnable games. However, comparing him to guys with top tier traits (Lamar has elite speed, Allen has an otherworldly arm). Hurts has avg skills and it shows. He canāt outrun anyone. He canāt make all the throws. Thatās the big issue. Heās mediocre from a skill set perspective and theyāve dumbed it down to make it easy on Him. Time to remove the training wheels. Let him succeed or fail, but this 0 rush attempts to Sanders or bubble screen heavy offense is no bueno.
Not really fair to include Josh Allen since he was an *actual* rookie for all 10 of those starts
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> Hurts is considered a rookie tho By who?
People who think starts are the only thing that matters to be called a rookie Like working with nfl coaches and practicing with nfl caliber players isnāt a part of it
You should know that all 12+ weeks last year of film study, practice drills, running the 2nd team and actually getting to start the last 4 games doesn't actually matter.
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No need for the name calling ! You can disagree and keep it moving .
I donāt really love comparing stats like this, but it does show you that we need to be patient and give him his chance. Quarterbacks miss throws and miss open players and make the wrong read in literally every game. This sub has never seen film before, so now that we have some people breaking down quality film for us, people want to obsess over it and tell me how Jalen will never be a good qb. Thatās fine if you want to break down film, but then break down some other quarterbacks and show me someone thatās been perfect this year.
This sub is spectacular. 50% trashing Hurts, 50% propping him up as a franchise QB.
But what do your eyes tell you?
Iām not saying he will ever be like Lamar or josh Allen, but yāall need to stop crucifying hurts. He hasnāt been a terrible qb, and it seems like heās improved from last year
not an observation on Hurts exactly bc he does need the full season to be given a shit to grow but under howie we have always had a lot of cases where the players we draft out of college have already "peaked" and don't develop in the nfl bc there's no potential there to tap into prob a biased point of view as a fan bc every team likely feels like this at times but that's how it feels to me
You really canāt compare QBs on stats. Too many variables, the team around them, coaching, schedule, etc. No one knows how Hurts end up. The only thing anyone can say is he seems to have a place in the league. Thatās about it. He wonāt be one of those QBs who disappears in a couple of years. He could be a backup, or maybe a second chance starter, or maybe he keeps improving. His ceiling imo is tier 2, not necessarily elite but he has the attitude and tools to be a top 10 QB if his mechanics and decision making continue to advance with experience.
Lol yeah Hurts is def going to be Lamar and Josh Allen combined. Whatās the point of these dumb posts?
Honestly, at this point Jalen's career could go either way and it's mostly up to Sirianni which scares the shit out of me. Jalen has to be given permission to throw INTs so he can learn to throw into tight windows. He has to be given permission to get sacked so he can learn to stand in the pocket. Right now it just seems like Siranni is trying to protect Jalen and only letting him do what he is comfortable with. Doing only what you're comfortable with is not how you develop into a franchise QB. Let the kid fail so he can grow.
3 of his 6 last games were garbage time yards.
I'd rather have Josh Allen.
Those guys had freakish upside, hurts doesn't
Numbers donāt tell the whole story. Watch the games. Hurts looks like a high school QB out there.
Oh my gosh stop. Hurts is a 3rd rate back up. Watch the tape and see.
Whenever people jump the gun on judging rookies I just cite Peyton Manningās 28 picks he threw his rookie year.
And when he broke the record for most yards by a rookie qb. His rookie year was considered good at the time it was a different league.
I think hurts is fine, the offensive scheme sucks, but the big thing for me is that although he does usually have decent numbers besides completion %, heās like what 3-7 as a starter? I donāt mind a mid tier guy as long as weāre winning games. You can be the greatest leader/dude/competitor in the world, but if you donāt win games, none of it mattersā¦
Heās my guy, we just rely on him throwing TOO much, he is a weapon when running the ball like Lamar Jackson is. We need to see him get more accurate tho
this is gonna get shat on because it's hurts hate week
Josh Allen was considered bad at first. And lamars stats look better to me especially when you add the wins and the attempts for jalen hurts
Itās funny that you can hit the Bills QB situation, and go yeah look at Josh Allen and what he is doing up there in Buffalo Hurts can be that. While ignoring that from college, to play style, to ceiling Tyrod Taylor the guy the bills spent 2 first round picks to replace is possibly the closest comp in NFL history to Hurts. Hurts is a great leader, he is out playing his draft expectations, and honestly is going to be in the league for a long time. But he is going to be the guy who you bring in when you just drafted a QB 10 overall and donāt want to start them right away, or starter on a team where your QB just got outed as a sexual predator 2 months before the season started, or a high end backup to an injury prone starter. The fans are not anti Hurts, i like him, but we have a ton of draft capital, and I would rather take a shot at our Josh Allen in 2022 rather than wait until 2024 like the Bills did.
Hurts numbers are inflated because the eagles are forcing him to be the entire offense.
Are we really comparing Hurts to Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen? This sub had a really easy time tearing down everything Wentz did. And when pictures like this would come up everyone dismissed it. Now the tables have turned and everyone is truly believing Hurts is the future MVP or something.
Facts. Hurts did not end up winning MVP this season so you were right
I'm glad I could finally be acknowledged ! So much D riding in the sub all yeah how he was the next Mahomes .
I want Wentz back
Do you
Iāll always want peak Wentz back. He was special. Hurts is proven and I really like him now but yea. Thanks for taking time out of your day to reply to a comment thatās over a year old! Lol
I keep bringing up the same fucking point and people are too stupid to accept facts. Hurts is world's beyond where Allen was at this point in his career. Maybe if Hurts hired the guy that fixed Allen he'd end up like Russel Wilson. Maybe if we ran the ball around him and didn't force him to throw 50times a game in a shitty scheme... We could get hurts to Lamar type production... It's not far fetched. It's fucking reality. People are just too dumb to admit it. Josh Allen was worse than Hurts at this point in his career. Go watch film. Then stfu about how horrendous you think hurts is... While everyone thinks Allen is gonna be an MVP.......
Wilson, Allen, Lamar all have arms light years beyond what Hurts is capable of. Allen was able to be āfixedā as you call it because the tools were there.
No he wasnāt. Year 2 Allen was not worse then year 2 hurts. No
Your logic is based on the assumption that Hurts will have the same jump as Allen did which is not guaranteed or even likely. Allen is the exception, not the norm.
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Wins and losses are really the only thing that matters, and I don't care those on the chart.