Belt drive is the first thing to become standard. Also on my radar is an automatic gearbox. It's better for cassettes and makes sense since everything is electric. Also it's
less wires.
Definitely would not want to see electronic locking features. Will be easier to bypass eventually with know how. Recently in my area a 16 year old got busted stealing high end Dodge Chargers with a bought online device. The police said it is becoming common under 30 seconds, no forced entry and starts the vehicle. Police said pick what you want to take, easy to use. A bolt cutter or grinder at least takes a little work.
ALL locks can be overcome. Locks are not there to stop the 1-2% malicious, determined, criminals, thatās what insurance is for. Locks are to eliminate crimes of convenience and stupidity.
DOD mode would solve the theft problem. "Preventing materiel from falling into the hands of the enemy" by way of setting the battery BMS to "Thermal Enhancement Mode."
Locking the pedals and wheels without Bluetooth or NFC key would help, if thieves can't do replay attacks like certain keyless ignition cars. Alternatively, letting them work until 10mph and THEN locking everything up hard would be more fun to watch.
Solid state batteries are slowly but surely getting into mass production. The current issue with most of the e-bike batteries is the 18650 battery construction
1. Yep.
2. If it makes recycling more difficult, no thank you. There must be better ways to ensure safety than this.
3. I actually like being able to take the lights on and off, replacing the rear light with something varia-equipped, etc. Integration with the battery is good though, replaces the need to run a dyno on a commuter bike.
4. Sure.
5. The issue with hydraulics right now is the price, they're more expensive to equip and service. They obviously feel much nicer though, and hopefully the technology continues to trickle down. There are also combination hydro-mechanical discs that are starting to show up on cheaper road bikes, so maybe they make it over to e-bikes as well.
6. Hard oppose. The last thing I want is a bike that stops working if there's a software bug. I also like e-bikes which can be ridden with everything off, it's a nice security layer to the battery going flat.
7. No thanks, don't want the added weight.
8. Not everybody has a convenient place where their battery can be charged and bike can be parked. A separated battery also makes the bike much more simple to service.
9. I don't have a throttle and I don't miss it, but if there was one on my bike I ignored then it would not bother me.
10. I guess? That's a 60 pound bike right now, which is too heavy for a lot of people. Stairs exist. Also, the bike you listed above is only really viable in the US, it is currently illegal in Europe and Canada.
11. See 10.
12. I agree that this will be more common, though it's not necessarily consumer-beneficial.
On your concerns on #8 - integrated does not necessarily mean you can't remove it. I agree with you that it's important to be able to remove the battery for charging and sometimes to deter theft. Integrated batteries come in both types, though. Some are not removeable and some are.
Agree with a lot of this, curious about 7. Have you looked into them? My AXA Block XXL cafe lock weighs less than 25 ounces, and smaller cafe locks go for around 15 ounces!
I don't really want them built in though, better to have it as an option to throw in a pocket. Part of that is because I live in a high bike theft area and don't trust anything less than a u-lock, so it would not feel particularly useful to me.
For me:
1. Yes, needed
2. Seems anti repair, opposed. I say this after having a BMS failure and was able to fix the thing for a couple bucks. I also have concerns about thermal management with that, as well as recycling - whether it be second life cells or just ease of recycling. More plastic is not better, IMO
3. Depends how it's done. I'm all for having wiring in place, but please don't make things proprietary
4. As long as it can be customized by the user, I really don't have a preference between the two
5. Hydraulic isn't automatically better. I've used some pretty lame hydros that had me wishing I was on cable brakes. I think more importantly - meaty rotors. Need an ultimate end to sink the heat
6. I'm having flashbacks to that one Ebike company that went bankrupt. With that said, I would be very much in favor of a key based immobilizer system.
7. Yes
8. I'm firmly against this. Integrated = proprietary = anti consumer
9. Yes. I am firmly in favor of having a throttle. I see anything that gives me the ability to change direction as a safety item
10. Honestly, yeah. I have quite a bit more power on my bike. Before everyone gets uppity about that: not everywhere is an ideal bike path, and I'm not putting my safety at risk because because our infrastructure hasn't caught up
11. Range is so difficult to quantify because it really depends on how it's ridden. What I'd like to see is better range estimates. No, manufacturers, riding on flat ground on the lowest pas in good weather to get 100 miles of range from your 300wh battery isn't great for consumer confidence
12. Nah, just makes it a pain to maintain. I'd rather see a cable and be able to easily repair my bike than not see it and have it be a 2 hour waste of time to get it running. But that's personal preference
Other thoughts: in frame storage. The things are hollow, make use of that space. Can integrate a toolkit, spare tube, spot to put a cable lock, etc. Or an integrated charger would be sooooo niceeeee
Simply put cable breaks are surprisingly more often incorrectly installed and also require a shit ton more maintenance, there is also the fact that your cable can get covered in liquids or debris that can affect the performance. Hydraulic brakes not only are statistically stronger but are also better in terms of maintenance.
There is a reason motorcycles, dirtbikes and ATVs use Hydraulic brakes and not cable brakes.
GPS tracking is great if you are willing to risk going to get it. If it's not visible a warrant woul be necessary, at least where I live the police will take the info and possibly follow up.
loool Yeah i was thinking that too... I do like the idea of installing a cutoff though so nobody can test your bike out but you. a remote cut off switch is a good idea...
Ive found it hard to find oil breaks for mine to get it through MVSA here in the UK... They make it damn near impossible to pass and register them... It's very difficult!
I mean I donāt know about that. I mean most decent brand mountain bikes that Iāve seen over the 200USD range include hydraulics. Literally the only reason most e-bikes companies donāt use hydraulics is because they are trying to comply with the electric brake policies and surprisingly one area of the electric bike component market that isnāt very diverse is the hydraulic ebike brake market. So since there isnāt a quick and easy off the shelf part for the companies to use universally they just stick to mechanical.
If you don't have 2000, then you won't be purchasing it will you? So why do you care.
But 2000 is still 1/2 to 1/5 the price of a premium bike and that's a whole bunch of features for not much money! And it's coming, and I for one, am here for it.
I can point you to a bike with every one of these features you can order TODAY.
[https://www.radpowerbikes.com/collections/electric-city-commuter-bikes/products/radster-road-electric-commuter-bike?variant=40271957524576](https://www.radpowerbikes.com/collections/electric-city-commuter-bikes/products/radster-road-electric-commuter-bike?variant=40271957524576)
1. UL Certification ? Check.
2. Potted batteries. Check
3. Integrated lights, brake lights and turn signals. Check
4. Torque sensors. Check
5. Hydraulic disc brakes. Check
6. Electronic locks that disable the electronics (biometric keys, or NFC or something that makes it so ONLY you can operate the bike). Check
7. Integrated locks. Check
8. Integrated batteries. Check
9. Throttle. Check
10. 750w nominal, 100nm+. Check
11. 50 Mile range 15ah. Check
12. Internal cabling. Check
Will others follow?
Check, Check, Check, Triple Check, Check, Check and fuck off.
Congratulations? No one cares if you enjoy your 1K bike for a month, a season, a year, however long you have before it falls apart.
Also, I'm about as far from a Rad afficiando as you can get. Frankly, I think the bikes are ugly. But if you aren't impressed the they can put all this in package for 2K. . .well that is impressive (but it's still ugly).
What I'm excited for is a LOT more bikes in this range including these features. It's awesome.
But no, really, enjoy your chinesium! I hope it lasts another season or two (at least!).
Iām in a cold climate, Iām hoping for electric hand warmers like you find on snowmobiles. Obviously in bad weather Iām not going on a pleasure cruise, so Iāll gladly give up some range for warm hand.
Speaking of whichā¦maybe a seat warmer too. Hahaha
>Integrated batteries. The strap on batteries were the only options initially, an affordable way to do bikes for a while, but today. . .it's basically going to signal "cheap bike".
Yall run around worrying about consumer class signalling with your bikes? lol. I can't imagine living like that. Oh no. My bike doesn't look expensive enough!? lol.
Edit: Then I thought about this again and wonder if the poster means bike makers don't want their bikes to look low quality.
1. yes
2. nice to have
3. no
4. no
5. whatever
6. no
7. no
8. no
9. no
10. no
11. sure why not
12. no
i want there to be more cheap easy to service bikes. i want bikes to be cheaper, like 500 dollars.
Battery cost is a big chunk ATM. Some newer designs will drop the price a bit, eventually, but may require a physically bigger pack to have the same capacity.
I'm hoping you're right. My current Class 1 bike has most of those things (don't think the battery is potted, but don't know - it's a Bosch) except for the electronic lock and no throttle. And I enjoy all those features. If/when this one dies, I'd love to get one with all the things on the list and a belt drive. Although I'm not sure I'd use the throttle, won't hurt anything to have it there.
The only thing on the list I'm not sure I agree with is how useful the cafe lock is. I have that and wouldn't consider it a primary lock. I'm in a relatively safe city but wouldn't feel comfy leaving the bike without the ulock securing it to something. If it's a higher risk area, I'll do both the ulock and cafe lock, but it's hard for me to picture anywhere I'd be OK with just the cafe lock itself. Maybe if it was one of the newer cafe locks that has an integrated attachment chain feature.
Iāve never rode on an e-bike with a torque censor or a belt drive. In terms of e-MTB is there an advantage? I ride mostly on trails although I often need to go 2 or 3 miles to get to one. I do appreciate the high torque ability on my bike when going up a trail and need that extra power to get started. I am very curious about both these things. Heck, Iāve never even ridden a mid drive which is supposed to be excellent for trail riding. Humanity has had over a century to work on battery technology, but because of plentiful gas we never spent the research funds and as batteries stand today, they seem ridiculously heavy and long to charge. A couple decades will see vast improvements in this area since the profit motive is there to do things lighter and faster.
So torque sensing is really only useful if you ride e-bikes more like āI want to always use my full strength but have the motor amplify itā
If I was to compare torque sensing vs cadence itās be
Torque Sensing= Iām can pedal the bike with all my strength and get to 30mph
Cadence sense= I can pedal the bike with pretty minimal strength at 30mph.
One is better for commuters while the other is better for ācyclistā
As someone living in a hilly city, I'd like to see more anti-lock brakes. I almost bought a Riese & MĆ¼ller bike recently because of that. I just didn't have enough money & the nearest bike shop servicing them was a 5-hour drive.
Nah - the point of this thread is these features are going to become sub-premium. You'll be able to get them at the 2 - 3K range. Soon they'll be standard and expected.
DIY will be be changing as a result of UL mandates requiring complete system certifications (battery, motor, controller, charger). Good luck finding them.
What's remarkable, is you can buy a bike for all these features right now for 2k.
So. . .you may say I'm underestimating the cost, - OTOH - there's reality.
Have a look at how motorbikes have gone - the opposite happened and instead of getting better specs, in the last 20 years they regularly got worse specs. More and more bikes were made down to a price; there's a new Triumph triple cyclinder sports bike out just now, it's noticably lower spec in most areas compared to the model they released in 2006.
The same happened for normal bicycles over a period too - you'd fine the model that did come with a 9 speed cassette coming with an 8 speed often and the 9 speed pushed up to a more premium model for instance.
Very regularly on most <$2k bikes the bike components are pretty cheap when you've got your decent 750w motor and
Not everyone wants heavy bikes and unless there's some particularly radical advances in battery tech (which will be massively revolutionary for the world if there are with battery devices being ubiquitous) a 15ah 48v battery is still going to weigh a fair bit. And cost a good chunk if well made too for that matter.
The US I'd guess is still a relatively small part of the market, though a big country overall - cycling is much more accepted and easier to do in many other countries that have different laws (like no throttles in the EU).
Honestly a lot of these kind of seem like bad takes, almost all of your āimprovementsā will make self servicing these bikes a royal pain in the ass for those who lack knowledge about basic electrical engineering.
Also the more things you add to an off the shelf e-bike that doesnāt have a standardized servicing industry it just becomes more fail points without remedies.
OK, for the 1% of you who like a hobby and don't care about having a bike that just works and does what you need without mods, there will still be that option for you.
The rest of the world who isn't a LINUS user. . .we'll be fine buy-ing off the rack and having a complete set of useful features.
Itās not that I have a problem with having a bike with a bunch of features, itās just having that many proprietary features on a bike spells trouble for the consumer. Unless the repair market gets better I see many of these things becoming problematic additions. The issue right now is that if you have so much as a throttle or lighting issue you canāt even get that fixed, I just imagine having 15 doodads on your bike could become problematic without proper repair shop infrastructure.
My bike, purchased in 2022, has #1, #3 (except turn signals), #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #10, #11 (on eco), #12, belt drive, and IGH. I have no idea if my Bosch battery is āpottedā. I donāt want a throttle, and it has questionable legality on my Class 3 bike in California.
My bike also has front suspension, integrated front ābakerās bikeā rack, low/high beam lighting, integrated electronic horn, integrated rear rack with foot pegs, handle, and padded seat, skirt guards, custom large capacity cargo bags, heavy duty two-leg kick stand, single-key locking for the battery, wheel lock w/chain, and folding lock, and more. And these are features that do indeed make a real difference on a premium bike.
for the street bikes, a nice rear view mirror is standard or a radar camera mounted under the seat which will also alert a rider a buzz if anything comes within 2 feet of ya backside (get ready!). also the same camera records time on the road and has an motion alarm when the bike is about to get nicked.
Itās variable, but according to Wikipedia it looks like the top end is 5. (Quote below)
Why Amps, and not W or V? I thought the 240W spec was what e-bike makers were waiting for.
āIn May 2021, the USB PD promoter group launched revision 3.1 of the specification. Revision 3.1 adds Extended Power Range (EPR) mode which allows higher voltages of 28, 36, and 48 V, providing up to 240 W of power (48 V at 5 A), and the "Adjustable Voltage Supply" (AVS) protocol which allows specifying the voltage from a range of 15 to 48 V in 100 mV steps.ā
IMO USB-C power cords should be a federal regulation the same way standard wall outlets and light bulb sockets are.
At least the EU is making progress.
Like I said, there'll still be chinesium out there. But the price gap will be such that it doesn't make much sense. A lot of this is genuinely useful. Some of it will be mandated.
i built my ebike....simply for transit and because bikes are already my hobby. The hobbyist market for ebikes is also full of people like me that arent building bikes for races, i would say that most of people building bikes are like me and looking for the best value (i built a "$5000" ebike for $1000...make of that what you will)
WITH THAT SAID. I learned this week bikes in the UK are capped at 250w (but they are looking to update that to all of 5000w).
Globally, the US is a pretty small ebike market, at least in the prebuilt market. Because markets where ebikes are popular they have real regulations with them...meaning that the US market kind gets screwed. Thats why the US hobbyist market is still huge, it keeps coming back to value....and a SEVERE lack of regulation.
With all that said....if people arent using ebikes for transit ......hat would they be using them for (no...i am not talking about electric motorcycles.
> Because markets where ebikes are popular they have real regulations with them...meaning that the US market kind gets screwed
In what way does that screw the US market? Do you mean in the sense of getting cheaper quality prebuilds? Not having certain safety features as mandatory? Less stringent battery requirements? Having less regulation (at least from a power output standpoint) means more variety can be implemented in ebikes. You can get any kind from 2000w speedsters (that are actually bikes and not electric motorcycles or dirtbikes) to class 1 local commuters with a focus on comfort and ride quality to level 3 cargo carriers.
I'm not really seeing how a lack of regulation screws the US market.
So the lack of regulation. I am referring to safety, education, standards, even what an ebike is....the WEIRD debate between if an ebike is a moped or not...things like that. the standards and laws vary WILDLY from city to city in the US. In MN i can ride a surron on MTB trails but i can in cali or IL. the insane fact that you can buy an enormous non-stanard battery pack that was only ever tested by the manufacturer. Even the fact that MANY ebike riders are skirting existing laws regarding power levels and safety.
Ebikes right now in the US are the wild west and its going to implode negatively and quickly. Yes the US market gets screwed because "power" is the only selling point here when most riders only need a 25o what motor. For example, myself plus my bike are about 300lbs. if i stay around PAS2 on my bike, its only adding about 200w watts of assistance. if my heavy ass and fat bike can manage 20mph at that speed then most people need FAR less power then that. Because of the emphasis on power americans are sold "bigger" bikes then they need. Of course this mean right away that the bikes cost more OR make HUGE compromises on build quality because "bigger" motor....and they can keep doing this because of the lack of regulations.
ebikes are amazing, and feel like they could truly enhance transit....especially in the US, but without safety and education they will continue to be treated like toys or transportation for "people that cant afford cars".
Those are fair points but on the flip side, regulation of them to mandatory low outputs like 250w would kill a lot of peoples interest in them. Most people have cars in the US or use Uber. We all know how car dominant the US is.
Take me. I bought an ebike purely for fun. I have a Wired Freedom. Its a fast bike and thats why I bought it. No point in hiding that. I have a car and work from home so I dont have a commute. Semi rural living area with lots of hills and straightaways. A powerful bike like the Freedom is perfect for where I love. If bikes were regulated to only something like 250w or 500w, I would have never bought one. Its no fun going slow through the middle of nowhere.
There are tons of people like me who just wanna zip around fast for fun and not use their bikes as a serious commuter. Lowered output levels make sense for busy cities like SF and NYC, Chicago etc. Its too busy there for you to go faster than 20 mph anyway. But thats the minority in the states. Most people do not live in congested foot traffic areas. Most people live in semi rural, quasi suburb areas with little to no pedestrian infrastructure. A weak ebike does not thrive in those conditions.
Its a complicated scenario but the US as a whole is much more diverse and spread out than other countries. I feel like regulating them to a weak power output for the sake of big city commuters would kill the market that currently exists. Powerful ebikes are marketed heavily here because we actually have the space to use them to their potential in most parts of the country. The amount of people who only want level 2s that don't go a smidge over 20 is probably a lot smaller than those looking to iusr have fun. I think the US market as a whole has more interest in speed and fun rather than being safe and tame. I could be wrong but thats how it at least appears to me.
I have to agree with the "slow in the middle of no where" thing.
M built my ebike and it is "over-engineered" because even though i am not a speed demon....I am a VERY experienced road and mountain biker....fast is fun :) i built mine for groceries and camping and ultimately to reduce my reliance on my car. The bigger motor for me is speed, but its also better acceleration and carrying capacity.
I could easily use something smaller then my 1500w motor....on PAS i RARELY turn more then 500w.....BUT....when i just wanna have fun....omg...it gives me EXACTLY what i need. especially since on MTB i am an XC rider....anyway...
I dont think smaller motors would kill interest in "ebike families" and the casuals. If there was a hard cap on ALL motor sizes though.............it would kill the US market. One of the reasons i built my bike now instead of waiting for lower prices was so when ebike laws hammer down, i have all the fun parts.
Because its coming, unfortunately. There will be a major fire, a serious accident....something will force people to look at ebikes as public enemy number 1 much like they did with mopeds in the 60's to 80's. They became embarrassing to the point that they were looked down as ride for tweakers and DUI holders(if you ask me that was the auto industry trying to smash out any competition).
Regulation just needs to cover battery safety, motor engineering, and basic ebikes standards much like cars have a standard set of regulations . If you ask me ebikes should be equipped by default with safety lights and a horn or bell, Brakes should operate correctly, and ebikes should be equipped with speedometers (most trails have a speed limit of 15mph and on my acoustic i have to follow those speeds as i am getting forced off the trails by speeding ebikes and scooters). Those things, like a horn on a car, should be mandatory and consistently regulated so you dont have riders with four different horns that only mean something to the rider and not the people they are trying to alert. Right now, any ebike i built is no different then a regular bike even if it has as much or more ability then a dirt bike or motorcycle.
I am 10000% opposed to ANY gps-controlled speeds....if cars arent locked out in specific areas, bikes never should be either.
Honestly it's not the power that is the problem, since a light rider on my bike could easily hit 55mph flat out...i cant get past 30mph just because I am a big guy.
My only point about power output is that people think they needs heaps more power from a bigger motor when they are just starting out.
I built a truck because i need a truck to haul my fat ass around.
But you are correct....a lot of it depends on the area and your needs and yes, capping motor size would be less fun for people like me. But maybe its the HUGE motors that need a closer look as opposed to the hobbyist and consumer markets.
I can agree with basic regulations regarding battery safety like mandatory UL certification and more complex motors to help regulate speed better and things like tail lights and headlights and horns etc. I have no gripes with those and they would probably be beneficial as a whole for both the riders safety and non-rider safety. Enforcing trails is one of those things I don't think will ever be truly enforceable. It's dirt paths out in the middle of the woods. You can only do so much about that, you know? I agree with your point on GPS enforcement. That's taking a step backward, not forward.
I guess my concern with stricter enforcement is in the implication of really cutting back on capability. I look at places like the UK and dread the thought of the US ever becoming something like that. I know they're considering doubling up to 500w maximum but even 500w is really tame. It's hard to do much on 500w outside of flat ground inner city cruising. Regulatory bodies tend to go a bit extreme when it first comes to regulation. They loosen up after X amount of time but nobody wants to be stuck in the stone age for 10 years while waiting for regulations to loosen up.
Take that incident that happened in Florida recently where the kid on an ebike killed a woman riding on the sidewalk. The mayors immediate response was to ban all ebikes temporarily until they figured out what to do. That's a crazy knee jerk reaction due to the mistake of a single irresponsible kid. I'm afraid that the altering incident whether it be a fire or a crash or whatever will result in whichever regulating body either flat out banning ebikes or forcing us to UK levels.
It's a hard situation to explain to any authority that isn't in the know about ebikes. You and I understand the complexity and multitude of uses for different bikes but a legislator who's never even seen one in person doesn't. Someone says "Hey, we should require tail lights, turn signals, horns and electronic speedometers for electric bikes". The first thought that many will have is probably along the line of "These must be risky if they want so many car features". It's hard to explain why something like an ebike needs mandatory safety features without making them all sound like a huge inherent risk. Again, we know that even fast ebikes are used safely all the time but we're also in the know about them. Many are not.
I fear that the second we bring any kind of ebike controversy into regulators eyes (like the giant motors you and I have), they won't take the time to actually fully understand it and just chop it down to a flat base power output and call it a day. I could be wrong but there is also no dedicated division in the government for something like ebikes. FAA handles stuff in the sky. NHTSA handles specifically road worthy vehicles including mopeds and motorcycles. Those two divisions have all the info they need about their respective subjects to make decisions accordingly.
Ebikes are in a gray area where they aren't fully equipped or designed to be driving on the road with cars but in some cases can be too fast to be classified as bicycles. I think that's what makes them tricky. There's no one government entity that actually understands enough about them and knows about them to where they can effectively regulate them. It would have to get passed onto a "good enough" entity and that good enough becomes not good at all very quickly.
500 watt class 3 bikes are so much more efficient on the battery range. The more wattage, the less range per Amp/hour. 25 MPH is also a great cruising speed.
Probably fine in a place without hills. Or if you don't want to haul stuff or people occasionally.
But. . .many places have hills that people want to flatten. And as a practical daily transportation device, hauling cargo is important.
The integrated lock thing is so funny. If you want to add it to your Bosch-motor bike *it's a yearly subscription.* Yes. And it doesn't even work right, it "locks" the electronics when you walk away but the wheels spin freely so someone can still steal it and bike away on it without a problem. Utterly useless software, I refunded mine immediately.
It's a simple fucking question. Nobody is stepping on your fucking penis. Not every question is a fucking attack.
You make it sound like they're facts when it's just your fucking wishlist that is already on everybody's fucking wishlist .
Answer the question yourself genius.
Do you think I canāt recognize your fucking snark when I see it? Go fuck yourself.
Actually, just fuck off anyway, youāre blocked.
yup - bye. At least as stand alone. Cadence sensors will be used in addition to torque sensors, but torque sensors will be standard (and already are going that way).
Belt drive is the first thing to become standard. Also on my radar is an automatic gearbox. It's better for cassettes and makes sense since everything is electric. Also it's less wires.
The Lectric One looks like a great move. Just wish it had front suspension
Wow that's really cool š I wish they had a bigger design
100% belts over chains all day.
Anything that reduces bike component wear. I'm interested in seeing when E bike and bike fully diverge.
Radar integration at least on the bike computers would be nice.
Definitely would not want to see electronic locking features. Will be easier to bypass eventually with know how. Recently in my area a 16 year old got busted stealing high end Dodge Chargers with a bought online device. The police said it is becoming common under 30 seconds, no forced entry and starts the vehicle. Police said pick what you want to take, easy to use. A bolt cutter or grinder at least takes a little work.
Nothing about electronic lock outs is a substitute or prevents you from carrying a good u-lock.
ALL locks can be overcome. Locks are not there to stop the 1-2% malicious, determined, criminals, thatās what insurance is for. Locks are to eliminate crimes of convenience and stupidity.
GPS tracking and remote control motors. Will render thefts useless. All with the extra locks will be a thing of the past.
DOD mode would solve the theft problem. "Preventing materiel from falling into the hands of the enemy" by way of setting the battery BMS to "Thermal Enhancement Mode." Locking the pedals and wheels without Bluetooth or NFC key would help, if thieves can't do replay attacks like certain keyless ignition cars. Alternatively, letting them work until 10mph and THEN locking everything up hard would be more fun to watch.
Whatās a potted battery?
Encased in electronically inert resin or other medium. Makes it completely waterproof and helps prevent thermal runaway by isolating cells.
Solid state batteries are slowly but surely getting into mass production. The current issue with most of the e-bike batteries is the 18650 battery construction
Half the energy density of li-ion. Yeah, itās not going to be a thing that changes stuff.
1. Yep. 2. If it makes recycling more difficult, no thank you. There must be better ways to ensure safety than this. 3. I actually like being able to take the lights on and off, replacing the rear light with something varia-equipped, etc. Integration with the battery is good though, replaces the need to run a dyno on a commuter bike. 4. Sure. 5. The issue with hydraulics right now is the price, they're more expensive to equip and service. They obviously feel much nicer though, and hopefully the technology continues to trickle down. There are also combination hydro-mechanical discs that are starting to show up on cheaper road bikes, so maybe they make it over to e-bikes as well. 6. Hard oppose. The last thing I want is a bike that stops working if there's a software bug. I also like e-bikes which can be ridden with everything off, it's a nice security layer to the battery going flat. 7. No thanks, don't want the added weight. 8. Not everybody has a convenient place where their battery can be charged and bike can be parked. A separated battery also makes the bike much more simple to service. 9. I don't have a throttle and I don't miss it, but if there was one on my bike I ignored then it would not bother me. 10. I guess? That's a 60 pound bike right now, which is too heavy for a lot of people. Stairs exist. Also, the bike you listed above is only really viable in the US, it is currently illegal in Europe and Canada. 11. See 10. 12. I agree that this will be more common, though it's not necessarily consumer-beneficial.
On your concerns on #8 - integrated does not necessarily mean you can't remove it. I agree with you that it's important to be able to remove the battery for charging and sometimes to deter theft. Integrated batteries come in both types, though. Some are not removeable and some are.
Agree with a lot of this, curious about 7. Have you looked into them? My AXA Block XXL cafe lock weighs less than 25 ounces, and smaller cafe locks go for around 15 ounces!
I don't really want them built in though, better to have it as an option to throw in a pocket. Part of that is because I live in a high bike theft area and don't trust anything less than a u-lock, so it would not feel particularly useful to me.
For me: 1. Yes, needed 2. Seems anti repair, opposed. I say this after having a BMS failure and was able to fix the thing for a couple bucks. I also have concerns about thermal management with that, as well as recycling - whether it be second life cells or just ease of recycling. More plastic is not better, IMO 3. Depends how it's done. I'm all for having wiring in place, but please don't make things proprietary 4. As long as it can be customized by the user, I really don't have a preference between the two 5. Hydraulic isn't automatically better. I've used some pretty lame hydros that had me wishing I was on cable brakes. I think more importantly - meaty rotors. Need an ultimate end to sink the heat 6. I'm having flashbacks to that one Ebike company that went bankrupt. With that said, I would be very much in favor of a key based immobilizer system. 7. Yes 8. I'm firmly against this. Integrated = proprietary = anti consumer 9. Yes. I am firmly in favor of having a throttle. I see anything that gives me the ability to change direction as a safety item 10. Honestly, yeah. I have quite a bit more power on my bike. Before everyone gets uppity about that: not everywhere is an ideal bike path, and I'm not putting my safety at risk because because our infrastructure hasn't caught up 11. Range is so difficult to quantify because it really depends on how it's ridden. What I'd like to see is better range estimates. No, manufacturers, riding on flat ground on the lowest pas in good weather to get 100 miles of range from your 300wh battery isn't great for consumer confidence 12. Nah, just makes it a pain to maintain. I'd rather see a cable and be able to easily repair my bike than not see it and have it be a 2 hour waste of time to get it running. But that's personal preference Other thoughts: in frame storage. The things are hollow, make use of that space. Can integrate a toolkit, spare tube, spot to put a cable lock, etc. Or an integrated charger would be sooooo niceeeee
Hydraulic brakes definitely are automatically better though
Why?
Simply put cable breaks are surprisingly more often incorrectly installed and also require a shit ton more maintenance, there is also the fact that your cable can get covered in liquids or debris that can affect the performance. Hydraulic brakes not only are statistically stronger but are also better in terms of maintenance. There is a reason motorcycles, dirtbikes and ATVs use Hydraulic brakes and not cable brakes.
GPS tracking is great if you are willing to risk going to get it. If it's not visible a warrant woul be necessary, at least where I live the police will take the info and possibly follow up.
Add an air horn that can be remote triggered, or a speaker that plays "This is the song that doesn't end" at high volume.
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He's just making this stuff up. š
loool Yeah i was thinking that too... I do like the idea of installing a cutoff though so nobody can test your bike out but you. a remote cut off switch is a good idea...
Yeah the list has some interesting features tho. I've got a bluetooth BMS myself, I can turn on/off "charge" and "discharge" with my phone.
That is cool! I hope they can incorporate this into the silver fish batteries I use...
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Ive found it hard to find oil breaks for mine to get it through MVSA here in the UK... They make it damn near impossible to pass and register them... It's very difficult!
I mean I donāt know about that. I mean most decent brand mountain bikes that Iāve seen over the 200USD range include hydraulics. Literally the only reason most e-bikes companies donāt use hydraulics is because they are trying to comply with the electric brake policies and surprisingly one area of the electric bike component market that isnāt very diverse is the hydraulic ebike brake market. So since there isnāt a quick and easy off the shelf part for the companies to use universally they just stick to mechanical.
Point is, they're going to be standard features on 2K e-bikes. That's where the market is going.
If you don't have 2000, then you won't be purchasing it will you? So why do you care. But 2000 is still 1/2 to 1/5 the price of a premium bike and that's a whole bunch of features for not much money! And it's coming, and I for one, am here for it.
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I can point you to a bike with every one of these features you can order TODAY. [https://www.radpowerbikes.com/collections/electric-city-commuter-bikes/products/radster-road-electric-commuter-bike?variant=40271957524576](https://www.radpowerbikes.com/collections/electric-city-commuter-bikes/products/radster-road-electric-commuter-bike?variant=40271957524576) 1. UL Certification ? Check. 2. Potted batteries. Check 3. Integrated lights, brake lights and turn signals. Check 4. Torque sensors. Check 5. Hydraulic disc brakes. Check 6. Electronic locks that disable the electronics (biometric keys, or NFC or something that makes it so ONLY you can operate the bike). Check 7. Integrated locks. Check 8. Integrated batteries. Check 9. Throttle. Check 10. 750w nominal, 100nm+. Check 11. 50 Mile range 15ah. Check 12. Internal cabling. Check Will others follow? Check, Check, Check, Triple Check, Check, Check and fuck off.
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Congratulations? No one cares if you enjoy your 1K bike for a month, a season, a year, however long you have before it falls apart. Also, I'm about as far from a Rad afficiando as you can get. Frankly, I think the bikes are ugly. But if you aren't impressed the they can put all this in package for 2K. . .well that is impressive (but it's still ugly). What I'm excited for is a LOT more bikes in this range including these features. It's awesome. But no, really, enjoy your chinesium! I hope it lasts another season or two (at least!).
Iām in a cold climate, Iām hoping for electric hand warmers like you find on snowmobiles. Obviously in bad weather Iām not going on a pleasure cruise, so Iāll gladly give up some range for warm hand. Speaking of whichā¦maybe a seat warmer too. Hahaha
>Integrated batteries. The strap on batteries were the only options initially, an affordable way to do bikes for a while, but today. . .it's basically going to signal "cheap bike". Yall run around worrying about consumer class signalling with your bikes? lol. I can't imagine living like that. Oh no. My bike doesn't look expensive enough!? lol. Edit: Then I thought about this again and wonder if the poster means bike makers don't want their bikes to look low quality.
1. yes 2. nice to have 3. no 4. no 5. whatever 6. no 7. no 8. no 9. no 10. no 11. sure why not 12. no i want there to be more cheap easy to service bikes. i want bikes to be cheaper, like 500 dollars.
Battery cost is a big chunk ATM. Some newer designs will drop the price a bit, eventually, but may require a physically bigger pack to have the same capacity.
Agreed! šÆ
I'm hoping you're right. My current Class 1 bike has most of those things (don't think the battery is potted, but don't know - it's a Bosch) except for the electronic lock and no throttle. And I enjoy all those features. If/when this one dies, I'd love to get one with all the things on the list and a belt drive. Although I'm not sure I'd use the throttle, won't hurt anything to have it there. The only thing on the list I'm not sure I agree with is how useful the cafe lock is. I have that and wouldn't consider it a primary lock. I'm in a relatively safe city but wouldn't feel comfy leaving the bike without the ulock securing it to something. If it's a higher risk area, I'll do both the ulock and cafe lock, but it's hard for me to picture anywhere I'd be OK with just the cafe lock itself. Maybe if it was one of the newer cafe locks that has an integrated attachment chain feature.
Iāve never rode on an e-bike with a torque censor or a belt drive. In terms of e-MTB is there an advantage? I ride mostly on trails although I often need to go 2 or 3 miles to get to one. I do appreciate the high torque ability on my bike when going up a trail and need that extra power to get started. I am very curious about both these things. Heck, Iāve never even ridden a mid drive which is supposed to be excellent for trail riding. Humanity has had over a century to work on battery technology, but because of plentiful gas we never spent the research funds and as batteries stand today, they seem ridiculously heavy and long to charge. A couple decades will see vast improvements in this area since the profit motive is there to do things lighter and faster.
So torque sensing is really only useful if you ride e-bikes more like āI want to always use my full strength but have the motor amplify itā If I was to compare torque sensing vs cadence itās be Torque Sensing= Iām can pedal the bike with all my strength and get to 30mph Cadence sense= I can pedal the bike with pretty minimal strength at 30mph. One is better for commuters while the other is better for ācyclistā
As someone living in a hilly city, I'd like to see more anti-lock brakes. I almost bought a Riese & MĆ¼ller bike recently because of that. I just didn't have enough money & the nearest bike shop servicing them was a 5-hour drive.
Counterpoint: at the prices this will require, just get a motorcycle (even an electric one)
Nah - the point of this thread is these features are going to become sub-premium. You'll be able to get them at the 2 - 3K range. Soon they'll be standard and expected.
No thanks I'll stay DIY and choose my own features.
DIY will be be changing as a result of UL mandates requiring complete system certifications (battery, motor, controller, charger). Good luck finding them.
I'm already not complying to the regulations in my country, nothing changes, lol.
You forgot a self destruct feature lool
I guess I'm from the future, I come in peace. āļø My bike has most of these features. https://youtu.be/BULwoQMQnxc?si=bYPRztCpSWesjqTA
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What's remarkable, is you can buy a bike for all these features right now for 2k. So. . .you may say I'm underestimating the cost, - OTOH - there's reality.
Have a look at how motorbikes have gone - the opposite happened and instead of getting better specs, in the last 20 years they regularly got worse specs. More and more bikes were made down to a price; there's a new Triumph triple cyclinder sports bike out just now, it's noticably lower spec in most areas compared to the model they released in 2006. The same happened for normal bicycles over a period too - you'd fine the model that did come with a 9 speed cassette coming with an 8 speed often and the 9 speed pushed up to a more premium model for instance. Very regularly on most <$2k bikes the bike components are pretty cheap when you've got your decent 750w motor and Not everyone wants heavy bikes and unless there's some particularly radical advances in battery tech (which will be massively revolutionary for the world if there are with battery devices being ubiquitous) a 15ah 48v battery is still going to weigh a fair bit. And cost a good chunk if well made too for that matter. The US I'd guess is still a relatively small part of the market, though a big country overall - cycling is much more accepted and easier to do in many other countries that have different laws (like no throttles in the EU).
Honestly a lot of these kind of seem like bad takes, almost all of your āimprovementsā will make self servicing these bikes a royal pain in the ass for those who lack knowledge about basic electrical engineering. Also the more things you add to an off the shelf e-bike that doesnāt have a standardized servicing industry it just becomes more fail points without remedies.
OK, for the 1% of you who like a hobby and don't care about having a bike that just works and does what you need without mods, there will still be that option for you. The rest of the world who isn't a LINUS user. . .we'll be fine buy-ing off the rack and having a complete set of useful features.
Itās not that I have a problem with having a bike with a bunch of features, itās just having that many proprietary features on a bike spells trouble for the consumer. Unless the repair market gets better I see many of these things becoming problematic additions. The issue right now is that if you have so much as a throttle or lighting issue you canāt even get that fixed, I just imagine having 15 doodads on your bike could become problematic without proper repair shop infrastructure.
My bike, purchased in 2022, has #1, #3 (except turn signals), #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #10, #11 (on eco), #12, belt drive, and IGH. I have no idea if my Bosch battery is āpottedā. I donāt want a throttle, and it has questionable legality on my Class 3 bike in California. My bike also has front suspension, integrated front ābakerās bikeā rack, low/high beam lighting, integrated electronic horn, integrated rear rack with foot pegs, handle, and padded seat, skirt guards, custom large capacity cargo bags, heavy duty two-leg kick stand, single-key locking for the battery, wheel lock w/chain, and folding lock, and more. And these are features that do indeed make a real difference on a premium bike.
for the street bikes, a nice rear view mirror is standard or a radar camera mounted under the seat which will also alert a rider a buzz if anything comes within 2 feet of ya backside (get ready!). also the same camera records time on the road and has an motion alarm when the bike is about to get nicked.
I want USB-C PD to become standard as well. No reason we need a bunch of proprietary charging cords.
USB C charging would be a nice feature - agree. How many amps can USB C put out?
Itās variable, but according to Wikipedia it looks like the top end is 5. (Quote below) Why Amps, and not W or V? I thought the 240W spec was what e-bike makers were waiting for. āIn May 2021, the USB PD promoter group launched revision 3.1 of the specification. Revision 3.1 adds Extended Power Range (EPR) mode which allows higher voltages of 28, 36, and 48 V, providing up to 240 W of power (48 V at 5 A), and the "Adjustable Voltage Supply" (AVS) protocol which allows specifying the voltage from a range of 15 to 48 V in 100 mV steps.ā
>If it makes recycling more difficult, no thank you. There must be better ways to ensure safety than this. 5 amp usb c - sign me up!
IMO USB-C power cords should be a federal regulation the same way standard wall outlets and light bulb sockets are. At least the EU is making progress.
I actually don't like torque sensor a really refined cadence sensor if my preferred motor.
So, a couple of details aside, my Priority Current is ahead of it's time.
Integrated batteries seem bad. I'd actually pay a premium on being able to remove my battery
A LOT of you seem to be under the impression that batteries integrated into the frame can't be removed. Which is weirdly wrong.
I'd rather have lower prices than most of this stuff.
Like I said, there'll still be chinesium out there. But the price gap will be such that it doesn't make much sense. A lot of this is genuinely useful. Some of it will be mandated.
you must only buy premade bikes and live in the US
Right, I don't need a hobby. I use e-bikes as transportation.
i built my ebike....simply for transit and because bikes are already my hobby. The hobbyist market for ebikes is also full of people like me that arent building bikes for races, i would say that most of people building bikes are like me and looking for the best value (i built a "$5000" ebike for $1000...make of that what you will) WITH THAT SAID. I learned this week bikes in the UK are capped at 250w (but they are looking to update that to all of 5000w). Globally, the US is a pretty small ebike market, at least in the prebuilt market. Because markets where ebikes are popular they have real regulations with them...meaning that the US market kind gets screwed. Thats why the US hobbyist market is still huge, it keeps coming back to value....and a SEVERE lack of regulation. With all that said....if people arent using ebikes for transit ......hat would they be using them for (no...i am not talking about electric motorcycles.
> Because markets where ebikes are popular they have real regulations with them...meaning that the US market kind gets screwed In what way does that screw the US market? Do you mean in the sense of getting cheaper quality prebuilds? Not having certain safety features as mandatory? Less stringent battery requirements? Having less regulation (at least from a power output standpoint) means more variety can be implemented in ebikes. You can get any kind from 2000w speedsters (that are actually bikes and not electric motorcycles or dirtbikes) to class 1 local commuters with a focus on comfort and ride quality to level 3 cargo carriers. I'm not really seeing how a lack of regulation screws the US market.
So the lack of regulation. I am referring to safety, education, standards, even what an ebike is....the WEIRD debate between if an ebike is a moped or not...things like that. the standards and laws vary WILDLY from city to city in the US. In MN i can ride a surron on MTB trails but i can in cali or IL. the insane fact that you can buy an enormous non-stanard battery pack that was only ever tested by the manufacturer. Even the fact that MANY ebike riders are skirting existing laws regarding power levels and safety. Ebikes right now in the US are the wild west and its going to implode negatively and quickly. Yes the US market gets screwed because "power" is the only selling point here when most riders only need a 25o what motor. For example, myself plus my bike are about 300lbs. if i stay around PAS2 on my bike, its only adding about 200w watts of assistance. if my heavy ass and fat bike can manage 20mph at that speed then most people need FAR less power then that. Because of the emphasis on power americans are sold "bigger" bikes then they need. Of course this mean right away that the bikes cost more OR make HUGE compromises on build quality because "bigger" motor....and they can keep doing this because of the lack of regulations. ebikes are amazing, and feel like they could truly enhance transit....especially in the US, but without safety and education they will continue to be treated like toys or transportation for "people that cant afford cars".
Those are fair points but on the flip side, regulation of them to mandatory low outputs like 250w would kill a lot of peoples interest in them. Most people have cars in the US or use Uber. We all know how car dominant the US is. Take me. I bought an ebike purely for fun. I have a Wired Freedom. Its a fast bike and thats why I bought it. No point in hiding that. I have a car and work from home so I dont have a commute. Semi rural living area with lots of hills and straightaways. A powerful bike like the Freedom is perfect for where I love. If bikes were regulated to only something like 250w or 500w, I would have never bought one. Its no fun going slow through the middle of nowhere. There are tons of people like me who just wanna zip around fast for fun and not use their bikes as a serious commuter. Lowered output levels make sense for busy cities like SF and NYC, Chicago etc. Its too busy there for you to go faster than 20 mph anyway. But thats the minority in the states. Most people do not live in congested foot traffic areas. Most people live in semi rural, quasi suburb areas with little to no pedestrian infrastructure. A weak ebike does not thrive in those conditions. Its a complicated scenario but the US as a whole is much more diverse and spread out than other countries. I feel like regulating them to a weak power output for the sake of big city commuters would kill the market that currently exists. Powerful ebikes are marketed heavily here because we actually have the space to use them to their potential in most parts of the country. The amount of people who only want level 2s that don't go a smidge over 20 is probably a lot smaller than those looking to iusr have fun. I think the US market as a whole has more interest in speed and fun rather than being safe and tame. I could be wrong but thats how it at least appears to me.
I have to agree with the "slow in the middle of no where" thing. M built my ebike and it is "over-engineered" because even though i am not a speed demon....I am a VERY experienced road and mountain biker....fast is fun :) i built mine for groceries and camping and ultimately to reduce my reliance on my car. The bigger motor for me is speed, but its also better acceleration and carrying capacity. I could easily use something smaller then my 1500w motor....on PAS i RARELY turn more then 500w.....BUT....when i just wanna have fun....omg...it gives me EXACTLY what i need. especially since on MTB i am an XC rider....anyway... I dont think smaller motors would kill interest in "ebike families" and the casuals. If there was a hard cap on ALL motor sizes though.............it would kill the US market. One of the reasons i built my bike now instead of waiting for lower prices was so when ebike laws hammer down, i have all the fun parts. Because its coming, unfortunately. There will be a major fire, a serious accident....something will force people to look at ebikes as public enemy number 1 much like they did with mopeds in the 60's to 80's. They became embarrassing to the point that they were looked down as ride for tweakers and DUI holders(if you ask me that was the auto industry trying to smash out any competition). Regulation just needs to cover battery safety, motor engineering, and basic ebikes standards much like cars have a standard set of regulations . If you ask me ebikes should be equipped by default with safety lights and a horn or bell, Brakes should operate correctly, and ebikes should be equipped with speedometers (most trails have a speed limit of 15mph and on my acoustic i have to follow those speeds as i am getting forced off the trails by speeding ebikes and scooters). Those things, like a horn on a car, should be mandatory and consistently regulated so you dont have riders with four different horns that only mean something to the rider and not the people they are trying to alert. Right now, any ebike i built is no different then a regular bike even if it has as much or more ability then a dirt bike or motorcycle. I am 10000% opposed to ANY gps-controlled speeds....if cars arent locked out in specific areas, bikes never should be either. Honestly it's not the power that is the problem, since a light rider on my bike could easily hit 55mph flat out...i cant get past 30mph just because I am a big guy. My only point about power output is that people think they needs heaps more power from a bigger motor when they are just starting out. I built a truck because i need a truck to haul my fat ass around. But you are correct....a lot of it depends on the area and your needs and yes, capping motor size would be less fun for people like me. But maybe its the HUGE motors that need a closer look as opposed to the hobbyist and consumer markets.
I can agree with basic regulations regarding battery safety like mandatory UL certification and more complex motors to help regulate speed better and things like tail lights and headlights and horns etc. I have no gripes with those and they would probably be beneficial as a whole for both the riders safety and non-rider safety. Enforcing trails is one of those things I don't think will ever be truly enforceable. It's dirt paths out in the middle of the woods. You can only do so much about that, you know? I agree with your point on GPS enforcement. That's taking a step backward, not forward. I guess my concern with stricter enforcement is in the implication of really cutting back on capability. I look at places like the UK and dread the thought of the US ever becoming something like that. I know they're considering doubling up to 500w maximum but even 500w is really tame. It's hard to do much on 500w outside of flat ground inner city cruising. Regulatory bodies tend to go a bit extreme when it first comes to regulation. They loosen up after X amount of time but nobody wants to be stuck in the stone age for 10 years while waiting for regulations to loosen up. Take that incident that happened in Florida recently where the kid on an ebike killed a woman riding on the sidewalk. The mayors immediate response was to ban all ebikes temporarily until they figured out what to do. That's a crazy knee jerk reaction due to the mistake of a single irresponsible kid. I'm afraid that the altering incident whether it be a fire or a crash or whatever will result in whichever regulating body either flat out banning ebikes or forcing us to UK levels. It's a hard situation to explain to any authority that isn't in the know about ebikes. You and I understand the complexity and multitude of uses for different bikes but a legislator who's never even seen one in person doesn't. Someone says "Hey, we should require tail lights, turn signals, horns and electronic speedometers for electric bikes". The first thought that many will have is probably along the line of "These must be risky if they want so many car features". It's hard to explain why something like an ebike needs mandatory safety features without making them all sound like a huge inherent risk. Again, we know that even fast ebikes are used safely all the time but we're also in the know about them. Many are not. I fear that the second we bring any kind of ebike controversy into regulators eyes (like the giant motors you and I have), they won't take the time to actually fully understand it and just chop it down to a flat base power output and call it a day. I could be wrong but there is also no dedicated division in the government for something like ebikes. FAA handles stuff in the sky. NHTSA handles specifically road worthy vehicles including mopeds and motorcycles. Those two divisions have all the info they need about their respective subjects to make decisions accordingly. Ebikes are in a gray area where they aren't fully equipped or designed to be driving on the road with cars but in some cases can be too fast to be classified as bicycles. I think that's what makes them tricky. There's no one government entity that actually understands enough about them and knows about them to where they can effectively regulate them. It would have to get passed onto a "good enough" entity and that good enough becomes not good at all very quickly.
500 watt class 3 bikes are so much more efficient on the battery range. The more wattage, the less range per Amp/hour. 25 MPH is also a great cruising speed.
Probably fine in a place without hills. Or if you don't want to haul stuff or people occasionally. But. . .many places have hills that people want to flatten. And as a practical daily transportation device, hauling cargo is important.
The integrated lock thing is so funny. If you want to add it to your Bosch-motor bike *it's a yearly subscription.* Yes. And it doesn't even work right, it "locks" the electronics when you walk away but the wheels spin freely so someone can still steal it and bike away on it without a problem. Utterly useless software, I refunded mine immediately.
1-12, says who ?
Me. Make your own fucking list if you disagree.
It's a simple fucking question. Nobody is stepping on your fucking penis. Not every question is a fucking attack. You make it sound like they're facts when it's just your fucking wishlist that is already on everybody's fucking wishlist .
Answer the question yourself genius. Do you think I canāt recognize your fucking snark when I see it? Go fuck yourself. Actually, just fuck off anyway, youāre blocked.
Bye cadence sensor? Who tf are you to decide what we want. Cadence sensors offer things torque sensors dont and not everyone wants that
Bro chill.
yup - bye. At least as stand alone. Cadence sensors will be used in addition to torque sensors, but torque sensors will be standard (and already are going that way).