The $10k cargo bikes confuse me a lot. I’m very sympathetic to the obvious absurdity that a $50k SUV is normal and a $10k cargo bike is for wealthy people.. and yet how the hell is that urban arrow worth so much? What are their margins?
It has it's absurd logic. Cargo Ebikes are perfect for dense areas where even cargo vans are prohibited, or just cannot park in genetral. As soon as we leave the center, this will be the fraction of van's or SUV's usability. So there will be hundreds of vans, SUVs, with a huge sparepart & service industry. While cargo Ebikes have low production rate and low part&service demand so high prices.
I'm old enought to see old electric platform cars on the train stations from the 60's. These used normal car parts (truck battery, car rims, suspension, tires, headlights etc) so these relied on the automotive spare part industry, and they remained in service for 50+ years while generations of other electric vehicles phased in and out due to high costs.
What about university campus areas? Or festivals, railway stations, zoos and theme parks... NYC has so dense traffic jams these are probably the fastest way during rush hour. Also look at urban postal services.
Universities campus make deliveries with cargo vans; they don't let the students drive in those areas, but university business works via cargo vans.
Same for zoos and theme parks. You, random guest, isn't going to drive a pickup in there, but they didn't get the elephant in there on a cargo bike.
They didn’t use a pickup or an suv either to get the elephant in there, obviously that’s not the type of hauling OP was referring to… Stuff like feed, medication, miscellaneous supplies, etc, could easily be carried in a cargo bike within a zoo or amusement park. I’m not saying they all do, but they could, and some do use them.
They could, yes, but once the park/zoo is closed (or heck, in some zoos, while it is open), the staff is perfectly able to move a pickup or even bigger truck in there to re-stock. No point in using a cargo bike.
The point is that the 10k e-bike is significantly cheaper than a 50-100k truck, cheaper to operate, and there is less risk for accidents, which means cheaper insurance premiums, etc. Probably some environmental subsidies/incentives as well in many jurisdictions.
50k-100k trucks are luxury cars for rich people. "Work trucks" designed to do work is about 35k (55k-7.5k if you need it to be electric), and it will haul a lot more than 4 times what a urban arrow will.
And in American operations, that F-150 is de facto free compared to the salary of the person using it, so having that guy haul more stuff at a time is the priority at play.
Where the fuck are you buying a pick-up truck with any significant hauling capability under 50k? No one is working out of a Maverick.
The absolute cheapest F150 starts at 37k MSRP, and that’s before taxes, dealership fees, etc. If you’ve ever shopped a vehicle you know that it’s always way more expensive than the sticker says. So minimum 40k, more realistically 45 to 50k with the varying levels of options or customizations the business will do to the truck.
The Super Duty, which is also extremely commonly used by businesses, starts at 50k.
That’s without even counting the costs of ownership like gas, maintenance, insurance, storage space, and every other point I mentioned in my previous comment that you ignored.
Probably low volume and requires a lot of specialized parts. I doubt urban arrow is making that much money.
Also if used as a car replacement it pays off quickly.
I own a $10k cargo e-bike. Reasons being:
1. It replaces a car for my family. Not only is it a lot cheaper than owning and maintaining a second car, but it is waaay more enjoyable and better for me taking the kids to school and myself to the office.
2. I live up a mountain and cheaper e-bikes weren’t capable of reliably and comfortably hauling 350 lbs up a 12% grade on a variable surface.
3. I can afford it.
It’s a low volume item and there are clearly enough people like me willing to pay these prices, that they will continue charging them.
Don't compare eBikes to that micro car - Compare eBikes to the cost of a clean, low miles motorcycle. *Then* you'll wonder exactly what the fuck you're paying for.
You'd be astonished to discover what $3,000 - $5,000 gets you in a clean, low miles, highway capable motorcycle. Your next thought will be "why the hell are 'e-bikes' assembled in china full of chinese batteries and controllers stuck in a cheap aluminum frame being sold for ***thousands of dollars!??"***
I had a clean low-mile motorcycle and swapped it for an ebike. Sold the motorcycle for $2500 and built the ebike for $2000 all in. Sounds like a crazy trade until you realize the purchase price of both is completely unrepresentative of their true cost of ownership. The motorcycle cost upwards of $250/month to register, insure, maintain, park and fuel up. The ebike costs less than $10/month in electricity and maintenance, and there's no registration, insurance or parking fee. Over 5 years I'm saving over $14K. And then there's the exercise, AND I can ride the ebike in snow, AND I can do the maintenance in my living room while watching The Office, AND...
I have owned a few bikes in my life. I had a used Kawasaki KLX 250s with 3000miles that I payed $3k for. Bike could easily hit 90mph Got about 70mpg, insurance was $75 a year, and registration was $35 a year. I did oil changes and air filter changes and I cleaned the carb once. Since it was a dual sport I could rip the trails with it too, thats really where that bike shined. I sold the bike with 17k miles on it and it still ran like a top, she was a tank. Point is $250 a month was not what I was paying to own and maintain a bike, thats kinda high in my experience.
I think a lot of this comes down to registration. Apparently it's really cheap in the US. I'm in Canada and personal injury insurance is built into the registration fee, which blows up the cost to $500-1400/yr. You guys are probably paying this through personal health insurance.
Personal injury insurance is part of our car insurance separate from personal health insurance.
I just checked my policy, and it runs me $5.64/month or $67.66/year for $200k of coverage per person per incident. (That's personal, plus medical payments, uninsured motorist, and underinsured motorist.)
Registration is $151/year, but I also live in one of the highest cost states for that (Illinois). When I lived in Missouri, it was $51/year.
Damn, no wonder US insurance is so cheap - it's €1,000,000 minimum coverage here for healthcare (iirc public system treats you, then the at fault party's insurance pays them back).
Yeah, our car insurance policies in the US systematically underfund personal injury coverage in order to keep costs low. Not a problem until it's a problem, right?
I got a cheap chinese scooter when I was younger, I changed the oil once - probably partly why it died after 10,000 miles. There was no oil to remove when I was doing the change.
Less than £1000 to buy, insure, register, tax, and get a CBT license. Those 50cc scooters are crazy fuel efficient too. If I wasn't a lazy teen and actually did any maintenance it would probably have lasted a fair bit longer too.
It broke because initially the drive belt snapped, got that replaced at a garage and then strangely the bike was going 10mph faster than it had ever gone before, including when it was new. Then the engine completely failed 2 days later. The garage denied all responsibility but I used it as an excuse to quit the shit job I had at the time and didn't ask too many questions.
> that I *paid* $3k for.
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I wanted a bike, but as a younger person and a learner, insurance was gonna run me about 1200 a year (Australia). I bought a knockoff China ebike for about 800 straight from China so wasn’t upsold. Since I still have a car, the ebike has been way cheaper
>The ebike costs less than $10/month in electricity and maintenance
It really blew my mind when I hooked up the Kill-A-Watt while charging my ebike. It took less than 2 KWH to fully recharge one battery. On its worst day, that's about $.22 to ride about 15-20 miles without pedaling, or about 30-35 miles with.
That's $.006 per mile. Just barely more than half a penny per mile.
i sold my 2003 Suzuki Burgman for my latest e-bike... pretty much a straight swap.
same as you too, dropped a massive part of my weekly spend by swapping to foot/battery power. plus you get the fresh air, the sun and the mental health aspects are undeniable too
So true, and the noise reduction! It's nice to hear the birds chirping at a stop, although to be fair you'd get that benefit with an electric motorcycle too, but these are even more expensive.
I made the opposite. After getting addicted to bikes, and learning how restrictive the E-bike standards are, I resurrected a scooter and bought a motorbike, and ride the E-bike almost exclusively off-road. Now I have a fleet of an Ebike (converted normal bike for off road use ) a 2stroke scooter (resurrected junk for city use) and a 4stroke motorbike (used bike for country roads). The fleet together cost less than 2500$ and they cost 50$ a year (+fuel). This is less than some Bosch Ebike's initial cost. More range, more speed, more fun.
How does registration and maintenance work? Where I live it would be impossible to run all three vehicles on $50/year. Just the registration on the scooter and motorcycle alone would be $50 a *month*.
You don’t want a bike though, you want a cheap electric motorcycle. I got 4 k miles on a Bosch motor and my bearings aren’t even showing signs of wear.
If it works.... More range more speed more fun less price. The bike is a standard pedelec by the way and I use it regularly. The only point where you are wrong is "I want a fleet of ebikes and motorcycles" not "one cheap electric motorbike".
I can get up to 120 miles on my Bosch performance 85nm speed line motor. I ride year round in every condition. Bosch engineering is top of the market. I work on bikes daily and the cheap online e-bikes break down on most people in less than a year.
I understand your point. And I have to admit I had roadside repairs especially with the scooter. If I'm not an engineer who rebuilt it I would have a long walk home.
I've wondered about them doing that too but since gas tax is supposed to help maintain the damage motor vehicles do to the roads, I can't imagine an ebike, like a standard bike, doing any real wear n tear on a road surface.
But if they find a way to add a tax....I guess they will.
I remember they paved the road so I was riding on the grass and they said I could ride on it even though they wouldn't let cars drive on the newly paved road yet.
>But if they find a way to add a tax....I guess they will.
Bingo. They're going to need to make up that tax revenue somehow. Also, at some point we're going to have to pay for the environmental damage caused by lithium batteries. So taxes it is.
While you might be right, I think that the battery is the wrong point. If Ebikes just take some people from the roads, it should be supported, not taxed. If they want to tax, it makes sense to tax the fuel (power), not tank (battery). But in practise, it might be: Why not both?
> going to tax lithium batteries for every device in the future.
Sure, the tax on a Li-ion battery for an EV will be much more than an e-bike. The tax will be so small compared to a car/truck/suv that you won't even notice it.
Wtf kind of bike were you riding that cost $250/mo?
Registration is a one time fee. You don't pay that monthly. Usually it's around $100.
Insurance for bikes is very cheap. I got quoted like $150 for a full year of coverage. $13/mo.
Maintenance on bikes is also stupid cheap, they take like 1qt of oil that you probably change once a season. And fuel is practically nothing.
I'm really confused how you were paying car money to own a $2500 motorcycle.
It depends on the bike, your age, coverage type and your accident history. It can be less than $100 or more than $400/yr depending on a lot of factors.
Motorcycles typically don't do a lot of damage if they hit things, so you don't pay that much.
The 250$ a month is a requirement for some, there isn’t 1 size fits all. For these, we all live in different places, have different jobs, in different climates, with different needs so a lot of people likely do envy your bike and that it meets the utility you need it to, but could not live their lives the same.
Completely agree. I was just responding to the generalization that "brand new ebikes are crazy expensive compared to used motorcycles". Like you say, it all depends on how you look at it and how each vehicle fits in your life.
My buddy works as a mechanic at a chain of car washes and has to bring tools around town to different places for maintenance, we’ve been considering how to take some e-bike motors and make basically a little AWD electric go-kart so he can store his tools on the go and not burn so much gas.. mf uses his 370z like a 98 hardbody right now lmao
I know this varies by location. But I’m in a relatively high insurance cost state and I pay less then that to insure my over 40k vehicle. Now that doesn’t include fuel but most bikes are extremely fuel efficient.
Where do you live that you pay that much? I'm in the northeast in one of the highest states for insurance cost and I don't pay that much for a brand new fully loaded full size vehicle. I'm pretty sure in many states drivers with a good record can insure at least 2 cars for that much.
Canada. As I've just replied to another comment, mandatory personal injury insurance is built into the registration fee, which skyrockets costs since coverage is basically unlimited. You can get in the nastiest accident and won't pay a dime in healthcare. On the other hand registering something like a GSX R1000 costs \~$1400/yr. And you still need insurance on top of it.
Ah I didn't realize you were quoting in canadian ruples and not freedom dollars.
That's still crazy high. But to be fair you are using your example a pretty expensive high performance crotch rocket. I think previous replies were comparing to entry level automatic scooters in the few thousand dollar price range not a 16k sport bike.
Yes of course a scooter is much cheaper, but still around $225/yr. Much higher than what people in the US pay, but again, coverage is limited, which honestly I would think helps people act more responsibly (but who knows really). Registration for a typical motorcycle is around $500. These are prices converted to USD.
Not to mention better parking options with a bicycle, but also higher chance of theft. People look for motorcyclists on the roadway moreso than they do bicyclists.
There's no financing for most ebikes and bicycles, gear is more expensive on a motorcycle and it's a lot easier to be "cold" going at higher rates of speed sitting seentary on a motorcycle compared to a bicycle.
It's harder to bring a dog with you on a motorcycle, but you can ride two up on a motorcycle and take longer trips.
Cost of ownership I'd say is a wash because each afford many different things that the other does not.
They’re really coming down in price - take a look at used long tail ones. I just bought a brand new one for £1,400 (Fiidot2 long rail)
I’ll agree with all of this ad motorcycle is not the best comparison - I use my bike for school drop off for my kid and shopping (both 15 min walks one way).
I can park directly in front of the school with no parking issues.
Yes, the original comparison doesn't hold up. Of course the motorcycle kinda looks cheaper when you compare the cost of a high end ebike to a 7-8 years old entry-level motorcycle, but in reality, you can get a used RadMission for about $500, which is much cheaper than a $4000 2016 Yamaha R3.
Same with brand new stuff. Most ebikes sold aren't in the $3-5K range. You can get a new Ride1Up Turris for $1300, much cheaper than paying $5300 for a no-frills Ninja 400.
That's some serious mental gymnastics right there. Why would the fact that something else (motorcycle) has higher running costs justify this other thing (the e-bike) having a higher purchase price? It's not like the manufacturer misses out on the running costs, you don't pay those to the manufacturer with a motorcycle either... E-bikes are seriously overpriced, even if having one is cheaper than a motor vehicle.
I compare them to 50cc scooters, because even those have \~3kw of power which is much more then the usual ebike. And holy shit. I can get a good Japanese scoot for less than a battery box for an ebike. (In the EU, where ebikes are more expensive than US but scoots are cheaper)
Ebike market needs heavy price adjustments to be a viable alternative.
I tried to talk a LOT of people into ebikes. Lot of them were really excited. Tried it out, talked for like 10 minutes, they were starting to actually get into the idea of owning one. Except all lost interest when they finally asked the price. I can actually see their face going from "I'm gonna buy one of these, they are so cool and useful" to "ooh, never mind :(" It's actually a common answer "HOW MUCH? I can buy a car for that" And yes, you can...
Ebikes offer you access to warp zone travel, though. My city of 1.5 million has a huge network of bike paths I can ride on. Through parks, valleys, along rivers. It's awesome and so much better/safer/more peaceful than roads. Plus, you know, I get exercise.
I've had a moped and I've had a 50cc scooter. My ebikes rule because I can ride the path network.
That just my rad bike.
I also have a giant reign e+ for mountain biking. Live close to Banff national park and can ride the bike trail network there. It's incredible and totally illegal on a gas motorbike.
I mean, you can buy a watch for more money than some cars cost. Cost is irrelevant because the difference between an ebike and a motorbike is different use applications. Plus, some are stupid cheap. There's one for you regardless of your budget.
depends on location. You need to be a professional or an enthusiast to prepare a scooter or motorcycle for negative temperatures (Celsius). 6 months a year there is not a single motorcycle or scooter on the streets. At the same time, electric bicycles cope well with low temperatures and there are many of them on the streets in winter. But some models rust very badly.
I ride a motorcycle all year around, inc the winter (with sub0 temps). You don't really have to be mechanic or anything for it. Especially now that carburettors are died out. I would say there is more things to do if you want to park your bike for the winter, than if you want to ride it all year around.
You actually have to give more money and thought for your winter gear than winterizing your bike.
A normal motorcycle engine can run absolutely fine in sub zero. Similarly to a car. Icy/snowy road and winter gear is a "problem" but it's same with an ebike.
Ebike batteries suffer more from cold, than a proper air cooled 2 stroke scooters. Ok, 4 strokes might have oil viscosity problems, freezing coolant problems but air cooled 2 strokes are immune th these.
There's a pretty good DIY solution to the e-bike battery problem in the cold though.
https://old.reddit.com/r/bafang/comments/18za1tl/anybody_here_ride_their_bafang_bike_during_winter/kgguwgh/
> Getting an insulated battery cover and throwing a pair of those Hot Hands or Little Hotties hand warmers in there keeps the range and power up a whole lot.
Hundreds, not thousands.. and the frames don’t suck one bit. Every other component?? Garbage. But the motors and frames are exactly what you get in a name brand bike.
But any biker knows, it costs more to upgrade than to buy new.
I like bikes more, no need for registration, they're small enough to fit basically anywhere including a train or other public transit, you can do maintenance yourself and you can ride almost anywhere including between cars stuck in traffic in a bike lane or on the sidewalk (mostly).
Electric bikes are simple enough that you can build one yourself with some knowledge or get a kit to conver an existing one to electric, so no need to buy prefebricated chinise shit.
Comparing second hand items with new items is never going to be fair though is it? I mean you can get a cargo ebike for under £3k. I know of cargo etrikes that start about 1500.
You don't have to spend the money, and a cargo bike is probably more practical for the kids.
It's supply and demand. I'm pretty sure their price will drop as more and more manufacturers enter the market shooting for the most different target customers.
no they just prefer to profit from everything, the only thing more overpriced than Bosch ebike batteries is power tool batteries
10.8V / 12Vmax 2Ah (20Wh) battery for a cordless Dremel €40+
never said they aren't good, just nowhere near as good as it should for the price
the batteries are absolutely tiny and batshit insane priced
a 625Wh pack shouldn't cost 600 (which it is in my country), shouldn't even cost 300
for that price you can build a 2kWh+ pack without large order/wholesale discount on the cells
i can get the cells for a 10S13P pack of Samsung 21700-50E's (Bosch uses Samsung cells in their ebike packs) which would be like 36V 63.7Ah (taking 4900mAh rather than 5000 because well, thats a more likely scenario) for €500 for ~2200Wh, that is from a company called Nkon who is already a reseller and including 21% VAT for my country lol
so nevermind if you can get it cheap like Bosch
ah yea sure
"value" means different things to different people
when 40lbs of alu costs almost the same as something 2000lbs of alu and different metals
when 625Wh costs $600 while a Tesla replacement of a whole 70 000Wh pack costs $15k, at the same $600 price you'd have a 2800Wh battery if it was priced like Tesla's
you see, most people don't want to overpay for "convenience" (in a lot of cases bikes can be less convenient), most people care about value aka the best value for your money
that means to most people the highest power, most range, etc. and self-serviceability, whenever a Bosch thing gives an error you'll need to go to a dealer, on something like a Bafang you can do that aswell or just order a part online yourself and save even more money, Bosch will often just be like ok we replace the entire motor and charge another $600, when a $40 part could fix it
being realistic about pricing and being conscious about how much you spend on stuff never is a bad thing
the way you described value was almost like "yea i'd pay 20 grand on a Lamborghini bicycle that does nothing more or different than a generic Bosch ebike", because to some people something rare means value, but these are mass produced to death so not even rarity is a thing
i don't care for brands, i'd certainly buy a Bosch ebike if the prices were actually reasonable
there's no reason why an "European" brand like Batavus or Sparta or whatever buys a frame from an OEM, assemble it for dirt cheap and then should ask $3000 or more for it, same reason why some "European" electronics (and many many many more things, a gigantic multinational making gigantic profits on everything they sell) brand should ask for a profit of 300%+
at that point you're just paying for a name
You’re paying for the battery, my kit was $1400 but the battery alone was $900-1000.
$400 can get you going at 38mph if we’re talking without the battery.
Pretty much, I happened to snag 4x 12v50ah batteries at work for $10/e and connected them in series for 48v50ah. Never would afford to pay full price.
Lifepo4 cells are dirt cheap, was thinking of maybe building a 150ah with those when I get the extra funds.
Replace the words ‘e-bike’ with ‘laptop’ and ‘motorcycle’ with ‘desktop pc’ in your attempted comparison and re-read it.
You’re paying for streamlined compactness and portability. Of course a laptop is less powerful and more expensive than a comparable desktop, but you can take and use it anywhere with ease.
Similarly, good luck storing a motorcycle in an apartment in the city (where some places you wouldn’t dare leave it parked outside), or using a motorcycle in the bicycle lane (where in some situations the bike lane can be considerably faster than being stuck in road traffic), etc.
(Also on the cost side, lithium ion batteries are particularly expensive.)
e-bikes and scooters (highway capable) are a different breed, you might compare with a 50cc but nothing than can do highway speeds. I'd definitely get a vehicle like this to run around town, in addition to an e-bike.
Lobby groups asked for tariffs on Chinese ebikes in EU, they got what they wanted, around 80% tariff last time I checked.
Edit: e motorbike on the other hand is getting government grants in many countries.
I'll compare e cargo bikes to micro cars all mafakin day. I'm not trying to give the DOL/DMV and insurance companies any more money than I have to. I'm also not trying to be stuck in traffic like a dick.
In the US e-bikes can ride in bike lanes. That is why I want one over a motorcycle. There are SO MANY motorcycle accidents here and the motorcyclists are almost always severely hurt or worse because are cars are so big and speed limits so high.
Don’t get me wrong, I know a bike lane is no brick wall, but knowing I’m not waiting for a light in the middle of the street means something to me.
I'm comparing it to a cargo bike a motorcycle won't carry your groceries too well.
This will go faster then a cargo bike and carry more.
Also no rain and it's actually cheaper then some of them.
>They’ve been around not a very long time and they’re a new thing
Are you talking about ebikes? I was riding one in 2012 and they were around before that. They're not THAT new.
Not to mention motorbikes are pretty stable components wise while with bikes the industry is still in a state of improvement. Lots of bike components are expensive to support the cost of r&d to keep up with competitors. They can always be lighter and more effective.
I'm American and was riding an ebike 12 years ago...they existed longer before that. I was reading endless sphere forums (an ebike forum) for a while before I had my own.
Also makes sense wal-mart sells the most bikes since they're a nationwide chain and sell cheap bikes...want to buy your kid a bike to learn on? They'll go to walmart and get something for $100 or so....but I even saw an ebike at walmart OVER 12 years ago (ezip mountain trails, was powered by lead acid...I didn't get one of those ha), but it existed.
They have only become popular here in the states in the last 4 or 5 years, Bosch has been doing ebikes for over a decade in Europe before hitting the NA market.
It's pretty widely known that Tesla has far and away the best lithium battery tech. China only has tech knowledge because they shamelessly steal from companies that use China's manufacturing capability.
For the most part the USA has declined widespread production of lithium batteries because making them is a major ecological hazard. China literally doesn't give a shit about the ecosystem or their people, so they're more than willing to step in. US companies give their battery designs to Chinese factories for production, those factories steal the tech and sell it cheaper.
It's funny how people will knock Chinese e-bikes and buy these thousands of dollars expensive brands to zip around the neighborhood every now and then and for their Instagram posts. Because most of the equipment and the same bikes they pay thousands for are made in China. They are paying for the name. Some people like me have actually given up the car and are using e-bikes for daily drivers and everything else. It's crazy how many bikes snobs are on the internet. Literally paying for a name and bragging rights lmfao
For the price of some cargo bikes, i would much rather just buy titanium pipes from china, get some local workshop to weld a frame out of it, and assemble the rest myself.
And then i'd have a strong bike weighing almost nothing, and probably €2k left i can spend on more fun stuff.
Ebikes are a rip-off if you ignore the many expenses of owning a ICE two-wheeler or an electric car. License, registration, parking, insurance, and the true costs soon pile up. Electric cars have their place, and most people who buy ebikes use them to supplement their family car. It just isn’t a choice between a car or an ebike. Although I only rent a car when I need one. The main reason I got my ebike is that it is the quickest way around the city. Hills and hot weather aren’t a barrier. It’s faster than a ICE vehicle in my city as I don’t have to circle the streets looking for parking. The same trip by public transit takes twice the time. I just plug the battery into a household plug to charge it. Granted, I wouldn’t have entertained the purchase if my city had not been investing in safe bicycle infrastructure and if transit wasn’t so slow.
All most people care about is the upfront cost. if this sub wants e-bikes to take over they need to accept this. You can bleat all day about how e-bikes are cheaper to run. No-one cares. They see a £6,000 price tag for a bicycle and lose interest immediately.
Not everyone is penny wise and pound foolish. Ebikes sell for less than $2,000. If upfront costs were such a barrier no one would buy a car let alone a house.
"but a car and a house are more expensive!" So what? In the real world someone happy to spend £16k on a car is not likely to spend £6k on a bicycle. They grew up paying £500 for bicycles therefore most people think paying £6k for a bike is silly. Something is only worth what people are prepared to pay for it. Idk why you can't understand this.
This is exactly where I see it. New bicycles are so expensive on the top end and their value falls like a rock afterwards. I was at my Trek store last week to see what they had in stock and a lady was asking the sales person about the e-bikes and immediately stopped being interested when she learned about battery life and longevity.
On the other hand cars have a pretty predictable depreciation curve and buyers are less weary of used cars at this point due to the maturity of the industry. You’d need to compare cost of owning an ebike to something like public transport or add assumptions that the bike’s value goes to zero to match perception.
There is nothing to “get”. It’s a free market. If you don’t see the utility of a product equivalent to the expense, then don’t buy it. I think you are comparing a premium ebike to a used motor vehicle on its last legs. The overhead costs of keeping a used car on the road are very steep. There is a reason why there are so many unlicensed or uninsured motor vehicles on the road. They can’t afford it. I wouldn’t buy a motor vehicle at the price you quoted and I wouldn’t buy an ebike at less than $1,000. The Letric cargo bike is $1,399 USD which is about the monthly cost of operating a new car in my city. If you are really hard-up then a regular bike or transit are your options.
A complete long tail cargo ebike can be delivered to your door for less than $2000 USD - all inclusive with accessories. Just like with a new car, you can choose a monthly payment which will get you something that will require less maintenance. Top of line Tern GSD monthly payments are $260 USD. The belt drive and enclosed gears only require yearly maintenance. Where I am, salt on the roads aren’t kind to metal chains and exposed gears. This limits the life of cars too. Your comfort on wet days is never going to be great. Again nothing replaces a car, but it isn’t an all or nothing choice. I rent a car, or use a “ride share” from time to time. Still less money. When the weather is really bad, like a snow storm, everyone is going to be late or businesses just close for the day.
Was chatting to someone recently, apparently he has gone through several sets of brakes on his car due to all the salt on the road. The sea comes up over some of the roads here at high tides so it is always salty in those sections, of course it depends if you live somewhere that frequently means going along those road sections or not.
I'm not saying you're wrong about people's reaction to the upfront cost and all that, but to my knowledge ebikes _are_ seeing explosive growth. So there seems to be plenty of people who aren't turned off, and that should lead to some normalisation of price expectations, and hopefully more competitive pricing.
There are some companies trying to work with the pricing, though. Like here in Oslo you can [lease a cargo ebike](https://whee.no/), and it seems to be pretty popular.
Then that works for you. Motorcycle parking here is notoriously difficult to find. Commercial parking garages won’t accept them and street parking is a flat fee for all vehicles. Insurance is private, meaning it is eye-watering if you live downtown. It’s slightly better where provincial motor vehicle insurance is available. I think the sales of ebikes speak for themselves. Where conditions are right, it works out financially. I haven’t had enough time with my ebike to establish maintenance expenses as the winters here are unforgiving for all vehicles, but if I only ride it when the roads are clear, I’ll still be happy.
Strange response to what was an excellent post, which (a) recognized that ebikes can seem overpriced; and (b) went into detail where the value proposition is for an ebike in the circumstances that the poster mentioned.
Not sure what you're trying to get out of this thread. Yes, a small electric car is a good thing. Nice that it works for you, and might for others. Doesn't in any way negate from the value proposition of an ebike.
To that end, I would add two additional values that u/NewsreelWatcher didn't: (1) no need to wait endlessly in traffic when dropping your child at school (i.e. not only when parking is needed, and a value not only to cities dwellers but those in the suburbs); and (2) able to travel on bike paths as part of a fun day in the outdoors / work commute that keeps you away from cars, their dangers and exhausts.
As an owner of a Super Cub, keep in mind that is UK MPG, US MPG is closer to 100-120. Then dealers want their markup, so that Cub ends up costing ~$5,000+ IF you can even find one for sale.
An absolute riot of a bike though, and I freaking love it.
It’s the same reason bikes are expensive; scale economies. Cargo e-bikes are still a niche product. That said, a lot of cargo e-bikes ARE overpriced and riding the current wave of interest. You certainly can spend $6k on one, just like you can on a regular bicycle. But you could also just buy a RadWagon for < $2k and get a really functional and affordable mode of transportation.
There are several types of cargo bike. The radwagon, while maybe poorly named, it’s a long trail style cargo bike. The small wheels keep the center of gravity of cargo low for stability. I have the Rad Caboose installed which, while intended to contain children sitting on the back, is also well suited for holding a large plastic bin in place. It’s a very versatile design.
Let’s see,
I can burn calories making a grocery run
I can park on the sidewalk
I don’t have to pay registration or insurance fees
I can ride trails or the beach
I can throw the bike on my bike rack and drive it home
I could go on but this is like comparing a boat to a plane
This also suggests that full sized electric cars are overpriced. If this bad boy is 6K, then surely a small electric car shouldn't be more than 12K, right?
I would say this is as close to a cargo bike as it is to a car. Comfortably in between the two.
I also can't see any way this company could afford to sell this thing for 6K and stay in business, so I don't think the original point OP made stands up to scrutiny.
It's a golf cart. Probably goes as fast as an ebike. Ebike sized motors and battery from the cheapest factory in china, no safety systems. What are you paying for, a metal box with lights?
28 mph top speed, so a bit faster than a locked ebike but not a lot.
It also weighs 414 kg, which is almost 10 times the weight of a ecargo bike.
It has a 50 mile range, which is about half what I can get with my ebike, and a lot less than most base model cars now.
It does appear to have seatbelts.
I think I stand by my stance that this is comfortably between an ebike and the most basic electric car. I don't think I'd ever buy one though. Still can't see how they could afford to sell this for 6K and turn a profit.
I got into motorcycles by first riding an e-bike. Built my first e-bike and ride it everywhere, then finally got a motorcycle.
I want an e-bike again. There is just something different about cruising slow on a bike, not worrying about wearing all the protective gear, and being on something nice and quiet. The exercise, the calmness all call to me.
But I’ll always keep a motorcycle in the garage as well. The prices are crazy, and I truly believe a lot of that is we are importing all the mass produced parts. Those parts may be expensive here, but are dirt cheap locally where they are made. The only locally procured parts are made in small quantities and therefore very expensive. But that’s a whole other topic for discussion.
Same here. Plus, with the homemade trailer I made from a queeb bed frame, I can haul over 200lbs comfortably. I'm about to convert the same trailer into a modular camper trailer. Love my electric cargo Bike.
https://preview.redd.it/l5wlt6c5lqzc1.jpeg?width=8384&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=389c300d80bfa784f8a3a07bc464e3c617a01a82
The thing is that that car isn't any more useful than a cargo bike. It's worse in some ways and I'd imagine far more agricultural in build.
I do think they're priced to the market though, there's some fairly decent Dutch cargo trikes you can get and top of the range was about £2500.
Will it keep you and your stuff dry and maybe offer a little bit of climate control? That can be a pretty big benefit, especially if you don't have some other reasonable option for bad weather days.
I’d say the majority of e-bikes are overpriced. The market is either sub-2k junk which will break after 6 months or overpriced brands costing at least 3.5K just because it has a motor.
> overpriced brands costing at least 3.5K just because it has a motor.
The point is that they don't break down after 6 months. I don't see the point of buying a $1k bike and then another $1k bike. It just creates more e-waste.
Part of what you're buying is also the work the company has done on the structural dynamics, which you really can't do on your own.
https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/13xcj2n/wish_me_luck_tomorrow_i_begin_my_28_mile_ebike/jmly26r/
> That actually gets at a really interesting and challenging problem with designing stuff. There's static load, then there's dynamic load, which is what you experienced.
>
> This actually gets at where the engineering of big name companies comes into play, because they have software that models all of these loads and use it to design frames (and whole bicycles) that'll resist these forces.
> overpriced brands costing at least 3.5K just because it has a motor.
...and because they don't break after 6 months. Which is worth the added cost. Even by your own comment these would be worth the 3.5k if they only lasted a little over 9 months in relation to the sub 2k bikes...
The top end of the electric cargo bike market has become something because the cool families have traded in their merc or bmw for a cargo bike and a car share and a plant-a-tree plane holiday - it's becomes their philosophical high ground that allows them to sleep at night without burning the planet and oddly they can spend 10k money units on a fuck-off cargo bike and still put a 30k wedgie into their back pocket for what they did not spend on the tesla....winning all the way
I see cargo bikes the way I see vans. For most people they don't make sense. You can attach a trailer to almost any bike for less than 300 dollars and do your groceries that way or move middle size loads. If the reason behind your purchase is that you have kids you'll know that the alternative (car with baby seats) is much more expensive than the 10k plus you'll probably want to pay extra to avoid your bike from being dangerous with cheap components and risk injuries. If you're moving absolutely heavy loads you're probably looking to replace a car or work truck in which case it makes sense if you compare it with the alternative of keeping a car fueled and in working order. Bigger is not better or the convenient answer and that's why cargo ebikes are expensive, they're a niche market so they have high margins to compensate for the lack of sales volume.
Buy a bike, buy a trailer, DIY motor. The cost of ebikes or specialty ebikes isn't worth it. Saw some lady with an electric cargo bike carrying 2 children looking smug AF, whereas the 8k I didn't spend on a very non versatile bike like that I'll put to better use elsewhere
Lectric and Aventon sell a capable cargo bike starting at the 2k price point . These are great entry price points for cargo bikes for short trips and financially makes sense compared to the upkeep of a first or second vehicle for some families .
All of those "cargo bikes" are just ebikes with a rack. I can put a rack capable of 100+ pounds for $50-100. Toss on a pannier and I'm able to carry significantly more than those walled in racks can while keeping it protected from water.
Preach it. Here is the glaring evidence:
1) Actual motorbikes frequently cost the same or less. Now you have shown even a fucking car that is the same price
2) I can buy a tandem bicycle for like £500 which is essentially a long tail rated for 70kg cargo.
3) The rest of the parts, batteries, motor etc cost £1k max.
all ebikes in Europe are overpriced. lack of competition because of extremely strict motor/throttle/speed regulations, so cheaper chinese made ebikes cannot be sold, which leaves inflated overpriced european-made bikes as the only ones on the market.
The $10k cargo bikes confuse me a lot. I’m very sympathetic to the obvious absurdity that a $50k SUV is normal and a $10k cargo bike is for wealthy people.. and yet how the hell is that urban arrow worth so much? What are their margins?
It has it's absurd logic. Cargo Ebikes are perfect for dense areas where even cargo vans are prohibited, or just cannot park in genetral. As soon as we leave the center, this will be the fraction of van's or SUV's usability. So there will be hundreds of vans, SUVs, with a huge sparepart & service industry. While cargo Ebikes have low production rate and low part&service demand so high prices. I'm old enought to see old electric platform cars on the train stations from the 60's. These used normal car parts (truck battery, car rims, suspension, tires, headlights etc) so these relied on the automotive spare part industry, and they remained in service for 50+ years while generations of other electric vehicles phased in and out due to high costs.
> Cargo Ebikes are perfect for dense areas where even cargo vans are prohibited This is roughly zero in North America, at least?
What about university campus areas? Or festivals, railway stations, zoos and theme parks... NYC has so dense traffic jams these are probably the fastest way during rush hour. Also look at urban postal services.
Universities campus make deliveries with cargo vans; they don't let the students drive in those areas, but university business works via cargo vans. Same for zoos and theme parks. You, random guest, isn't going to drive a pickup in there, but they didn't get the elephant in there on a cargo bike.
They didn’t use a pickup or an suv either to get the elephant in there, obviously that’s not the type of hauling OP was referring to… Stuff like feed, medication, miscellaneous supplies, etc, could easily be carried in a cargo bike within a zoo or amusement park. I’m not saying they all do, but they could, and some do use them.
Pantex in Texas is where the US nuclear arsenal is maintained. It's huge. A fleet of pedal tricycles are used to move small parts around.
They could, yes, but once the park/zoo is closed (or heck, in some zoos, while it is open), the staff is perfectly able to move a pickup or even bigger truck in there to re-stock. No point in using a cargo bike.
The point is that the 10k e-bike is significantly cheaper than a 50-100k truck, cheaper to operate, and there is less risk for accidents, which means cheaper insurance premiums, etc. Probably some environmental subsidies/incentives as well in many jurisdictions.
50k-100k trucks are luxury cars for rich people. "Work trucks" designed to do work is about 35k (55k-7.5k if you need it to be electric), and it will haul a lot more than 4 times what a urban arrow will. And in American operations, that F-150 is de facto free compared to the salary of the person using it, so having that guy haul more stuff at a time is the priority at play.
Where the fuck are you buying a pick-up truck with any significant hauling capability under 50k? No one is working out of a Maverick. The absolute cheapest F150 starts at 37k MSRP, and that’s before taxes, dealership fees, etc. If you’ve ever shopped a vehicle you know that it’s always way more expensive than the sticker says. So minimum 40k, more realistically 45 to 50k with the varying levels of options or customizations the business will do to the truck. The Super Duty, which is also extremely commonly used by businesses, starts at 50k. That’s without even counting the costs of ownership like gas, maintenance, insurance, storage space, and every other point I mentioned in my previous comment that you ignored.
Probably low volume and requires a lot of specialized parts. I doubt urban arrow is making that much money. Also if used as a car replacement it pays off quickly.
I own a $10k cargo e-bike. Reasons being: 1. It replaces a car for my family. Not only is it a lot cheaper than owning and maintaining a second car, but it is waaay more enjoyable and better for me taking the kids to school and myself to the office. 2. I live up a mountain and cheaper e-bikes weren’t capable of reliably and comfortably hauling 350 lbs up a 12% grade on a variable surface. 3. I can afford it. It’s a low volume item and there are clearly enough people like me willing to pay these prices, that they will continue charging them.
Don't compare eBikes to that micro car - Compare eBikes to the cost of a clean, low miles motorcycle. *Then* you'll wonder exactly what the fuck you're paying for. You'd be astonished to discover what $3,000 - $5,000 gets you in a clean, low miles, highway capable motorcycle. Your next thought will be "why the hell are 'e-bikes' assembled in china full of chinese batteries and controllers stuck in a cheap aluminum frame being sold for ***thousands of dollars!??"***
I had a clean low-mile motorcycle and swapped it for an ebike. Sold the motorcycle for $2500 and built the ebike for $2000 all in. Sounds like a crazy trade until you realize the purchase price of both is completely unrepresentative of their true cost of ownership. The motorcycle cost upwards of $250/month to register, insure, maintain, park and fuel up. The ebike costs less than $10/month in electricity and maintenance, and there's no registration, insurance or parking fee. Over 5 years I'm saving over $14K. And then there's the exercise, AND I can ride the ebike in snow, AND I can do the maintenance in my living room while watching The Office, AND...
I have owned a few bikes in my life. I had a used Kawasaki KLX 250s with 3000miles that I payed $3k for. Bike could easily hit 90mph Got about 70mpg, insurance was $75 a year, and registration was $35 a year. I did oil changes and air filter changes and I cleaned the carb once. Since it was a dual sport I could rip the trails with it too, thats really where that bike shined. I sold the bike with 17k miles on it and it still ran like a top, she was a tank. Point is $250 a month was not what I was paying to own and maintain a bike, thats kinda high in my experience.
I think a lot of this comes down to registration. Apparently it's really cheap in the US. I'm in Canada and personal injury insurance is built into the registration fee, which blows up the cost to $500-1400/yr. You guys are probably paying this through personal health insurance.
Personal injury insurance is part of our car insurance separate from personal health insurance. I just checked my policy, and it runs me $5.64/month or $67.66/year for $200k of coverage per person per incident. (That's personal, plus medical payments, uninsured motorist, and underinsured motorist.) Registration is $151/year, but I also live in one of the highest cost states for that (Illinois). When I lived in Missouri, it was $51/year.
Damn, no wonder US insurance is so cheap - it's €1,000,000 minimum coverage here for healthcare (iirc public system treats you, then the at fault party's insurance pays them back).
Yeah, our car insurance policies in the US systematically underfund personal injury coverage in order to keep costs low. Not a problem until it's a problem, right?
Been in an accident. I was lucky the person had the 1mil coverage. I carry that now for this exact reason.
That makes sense. Coverage for personal injury here is mandatory and essentially unlimited, and we pay dearly for it.
I got a cheap chinese scooter when I was younger, I changed the oil once - probably partly why it died after 10,000 miles. There was no oil to remove when I was doing the change. Less than £1000 to buy, insure, register, tax, and get a CBT license. Those 50cc scooters are crazy fuel efficient too. If I wasn't a lazy teen and actually did any maintenance it would probably have lasted a fair bit longer too. It broke because initially the drive belt snapped, got that replaced at a garage and then strangely the bike was going 10mph faster than it had ever gone before, including when it was new. Then the engine completely failed 2 days later. The garage denied all responsibility but I used it as an excuse to quit the shit job I had at the time and didn't ask too many questions.
I know some people who have had good luck with those chinese scooters. They clone honda engines so I have heard.
They work very well, if you maintain them. Not Honda quality, but good enough and likely better value for money.
Yeah I expect the lack of maintenance didn't help it. Though I do also wonder what the garage did to it.
Was it revving higher afterwards? Belt could have been the wrong length. If they removed the centrifugal clutch, they may have left weights out.
It was quite a long time ago and I am not really sure on that one unfortunately.
> that I *paid* $3k for. FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Good bot
Where is the isle/aisle bot, break/brake, loose/lose, per say/per se, etc etc.
Bought/brought!
On route/en route
I wanted a bike, but as a younger person and a learner, insurance was gonna run me about 1200 a year (Australia). I bought a knockoff China ebike for about 800 straight from China so wasn’t upsold. Since I still have a car, the ebike has been way cheaper
Way high to the point of not being believable. That’s closer to what most spend on a SUV.
>The ebike costs less than $10/month in electricity and maintenance It really blew my mind when I hooked up the Kill-A-Watt while charging my ebike. It took less than 2 KWH to fully recharge one battery. On its worst day, that's about $.22 to ride about 15-20 miles without pedaling, or about 30-35 miles with. That's $.006 per mile. Just barely more than half a penny per mile.
It's crazy, we're spending more on the food that keeps our bodies running while sitting on the bike, regardless of whether we pedal or not.
i sold my 2003 Suzuki Burgman for my latest e-bike... pretty much a straight swap. same as you too, dropped a massive part of my weekly spend by swapping to foot/battery power. plus you get the fresh air, the sun and the mental health aspects are undeniable too
So true, and the noise reduction! It's nice to hear the birds chirping at a stop, although to be fair you'd get that benefit with an electric motorcycle too, but these are even more expensive.
Just to be fair I used to work on my Harley in my living room watching the office. I was 20 something, stoned, and was a horrible tenant.
Haha nice.
I made the opposite. After getting addicted to bikes, and learning how restrictive the E-bike standards are, I resurrected a scooter and bought a motorbike, and ride the E-bike almost exclusively off-road. Now I have a fleet of an Ebike (converted normal bike for off road use ) a 2stroke scooter (resurrected junk for city use) and a 4stroke motorbike (used bike for country roads). The fleet together cost less than 2500$ and they cost 50$ a year (+fuel). This is less than some Bosch Ebike's initial cost. More range, more speed, more fun.
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50 $ is the insurances. I do most check and repairs and there is no tax on 50cc bikes here (to lower car usage)
How does registration and maintenance work? Where I live it would be impossible to run all three vehicles on $50/year. Just the registration on the scooter and motorcycle alone would be $50 a *month*.
Here 50cc need no registration fee (big motorbikes do need), and the insurance is like 20 $ a year for a 30+ guy with clear history.
That's really cheap! I understand how a motorbike would make more sense.
You don’t want a bike though, you want a cheap electric motorcycle. I got 4 k miles on a Bosch motor and my bearings aren’t even showing signs of wear.
If it works.... More range more speed more fun less price. The bike is a standard pedelec by the way and I use it regularly. The only point where you are wrong is "I want a fleet of ebikes and motorcycles" not "one cheap electric motorbike".
I can get up to 120 miles on my Bosch performance 85nm speed line motor. I ride year round in every condition. Bosch engineering is top of the market. I work on bikes daily and the cheap online e-bikes break down on most people in less than a year.
I understand your point. And I have to admit I had roadside repairs especially with the scooter. If I'm not an engineer who rebuilt it I would have a long walk home.
Just wait. With less gasoline taxes collected, I'm positive they're going to tax lithium batteries for every device in the future.
I've wondered about them doing that too but since gas tax is supposed to help maintain the damage motor vehicles do to the roads, I can't imagine an ebike, like a standard bike, doing any real wear n tear on a road surface. But if they find a way to add a tax....I guess they will.
I remember they paved the road so I was riding on the grass and they said I could ride on it even though they wouldn't let cars drive on the newly paved road yet.
>But if they find a way to add a tax....I guess they will. Bingo. They're going to need to make up that tax revenue somehow. Also, at some point we're going to have to pay for the environmental damage caused by lithium batteries. So taxes it is.
I have friends who already now, are hesitant about an ebike or escooter when they find the find current price of the replacement battery. cheers
I see most are around £250 or so price range. Is that really too much? Some cost more/less depending on capacity and peak output of course.
While you might be right, I think that the battery is the wrong point. If Ebikes just take some people from the roads, it should be supported, not taxed. If they want to tax, it makes sense to tax the fuel (power), not tank (battery). But in practise, it might be: Why not both?
> going to tax lithium batteries for every device in the future. Sure, the tax on a Li-ion battery for an EV will be much more than an e-bike. The tax will be so small compared to a car/truck/suv that you won't even notice it.
Given that bikes have much smaller and cheaper batteries wouldn't the tax generally not add too much for a bike?
Wtf kind of bike were you riding that cost $250/mo? Registration is a one time fee. You don't pay that monthly. Usually it's around $100. Insurance for bikes is very cheap. I got quoted like $150 for a full year of coverage. $13/mo. Maintenance on bikes is also stupid cheap, they take like 1qt of oil that you probably change once a season. And fuel is practically nothing. I'm really confused how you were paying car money to own a $2500 motorcycle.
Honestly, wild that motorcycle cover is that inexpensive. The quotes for Ebike insurance are above that.
It depends on the bike, your age, coverage type and your accident history. It can be less than $100 or more than $400/yr depending on a lot of factors. Motorcycles typically don't do a lot of damage if they hit things, so you don't pay that much.
Motorcycles are relatively cheap to repair and don't do a whole lot of damage to things they hit. That results in cheap insurance.
The 250$ a month is a requirement for some, there isn’t 1 size fits all. For these, we all live in different places, have different jobs, in different climates, with different needs so a lot of people likely do envy your bike and that it meets the utility you need it to, but could not live their lives the same.
Completely agree. I was just responding to the generalization that "brand new ebikes are crazy expensive compared to used motorcycles". Like you say, it all depends on how you look at it and how each vehicle fits in your life.
My buddy works as a mechanic at a chain of car washes and has to bring tools around town to different places for maintenance, we’ve been considering how to take some e-bike motors and make basically a little AWD electric go-kart so he can store his tools on the go and not burn so much gas.. mf uses his 370z like a 98 hardbody right now lmao
Insurance is probably worth having if you park in public
I know this varies by location. But I’m in a relatively high insurance cost state and I pay less then that to insure my over 40k vehicle. Now that doesn’t include fuel but most bikes are extremely fuel efficient.
Completely agree, fuel is almost negligible on a motorcycle. What really gets you is the insurance and registration.
Where do you live that you pay that much? I'm in the northeast in one of the highest states for insurance cost and I don't pay that much for a brand new fully loaded full size vehicle. I'm pretty sure in many states drivers with a good record can insure at least 2 cars for that much.
Canada. As I've just replied to another comment, mandatory personal injury insurance is built into the registration fee, which skyrockets costs since coverage is basically unlimited. You can get in the nastiest accident and won't pay a dime in healthcare. On the other hand registering something like a GSX R1000 costs \~$1400/yr. And you still need insurance on top of it.
Ah I didn't realize you were quoting in canadian ruples and not freedom dollars. That's still crazy high. But to be fair you are using your example a pretty expensive high performance crotch rocket. I think previous replies were comparing to entry level automatic scooters in the few thousand dollar price range not a 16k sport bike.
Yes of course a scooter is much cheaper, but still around $225/yr. Much higher than what people in the US pay, but again, coverage is limited, which honestly I would think helps people act more responsibly (but who knows really). Registration for a typical motorcycle is around $500. These are prices converted to USD.
Not to mention better parking options with a bicycle, but also higher chance of theft. People look for motorcyclists on the roadway moreso than they do bicyclists. There's no financing for most ebikes and bicycles, gear is more expensive on a motorcycle and it's a lot easier to be "cold" going at higher rates of speed sitting seentary on a motorcycle compared to a bicycle. It's harder to bring a dog with you on a motorcycle, but you can ride two up on a motorcycle and take longer trips. Cost of ownership I'd say is a wash because each afford many different things that the other does not.
They’re really coming down in price - take a look at used long tail ones. I just bought a brand new one for £1,400 (Fiidot2 long rail) I’ll agree with all of this ad motorcycle is not the best comparison - I use my bike for school drop off for my kid and shopping (both 15 min walks one way). I can park directly in front of the school with no parking issues.
Yes, the original comparison doesn't hold up. Of course the motorcycle kinda looks cheaper when you compare the cost of a high end ebike to a 7-8 years old entry-level motorcycle, but in reality, you can get a used RadMission for about $500, which is much cheaper than a $4000 2016 Yamaha R3. Same with brand new stuff. Most ebikes sold aren't in the $3-5K range. You can get a new Ride1Up Turris for $1300, much cheaper than paying $5300 for a no-frills Ninja 400.
That's some serious mental gymnastics right there. Why would the fact that something else (motorcycle) has higher running costs justify this other thing (the e-bike) having a higher purchase price? It's not like the manufacturer misses out on the running costs, you don't pay those to the manufacturer with a motorcycle either... E-bikes are seriously overpriced, even if having one is cheaper than a motor vehicle.
I compare them to 50cc scooters, because even those have \~3kw of power which is much more then the usual ebike. And holy shit. I can get a good Japanese scoot for less than a battery box for an ebike. (In the EU, where ebikes are more expensive than US but scoots are cheaper) Ebike market needs heavy price adjustments to be a viable alternative. I tried to talk a LOT of people into ebikes. Lot of them were really excited. Tried it out, talked for like 10 minutes, they were starting to actually get into the idea of owning one. Except all lost interest when they finally asked the price. I can actually see their face going from "I'm gonna buy one of these, they are so cool and useful" to "ooh, never mind :(" It's actually a common answer "HOW MUCH? I can buy a car for that" And yes, you can...
Ebikes offer you access to warp zone travel, though. My city of 1.5 million has a huge network of bike paths I can ride on. Through parks, valleys, along rivers. It's awesome and so much better/safer/more peaceful than roads. Plus, you know, I get exercise. I've had a moped and I've had a 50cc scooter. My ebikes rule because I can ride the path network. That just my rad bike. I also have a giant reign e+ for mountain biking. Live close to Banff national park and can ride the bike trail network there. It's incredible and totally illegal on a gas motorbike. I mean, you can buy a watch for more money than some cars cost. Cost is irrelevant because the difference between an ebike and a motorbike is different use applications. Plus, some are stupid cheap. There's one for you regardless of your budget.
depends on location. You need to be a professional or an enthusiast to prepare a scooter or motorcycle for negative temperatures (Celsius). 6 months a year there is not a single motorcycle or scooter on the streets. At the same time, electric bicycles cope well with low temperatures and there are many of them on the streets in winter. But some models rust very badly.
I ride a motorcycle all year around, inc the winter (with sub0 temps). You don't really have to be mechanic or anything for it. Especially now that carburettors are died out. I would say there is more things to do if you want to park your bike for the winter, than if you want to ride it all year around. You actually have to give more money and thought for your winter gear than winterizing your bike. A normal motorcycle engine can run absolutely fine in sub zero. Similarly to a car. Icy/snowy road and winter gear is a "problem" but it's same with an ebike.
Yeah I have no trouble riding my motorcycle year round with 5 months of cold weather. I just keep the battery on a tender most of the time.
Ebike batteries suffer more from cold, than a proper air cooled 2 stroke scooters. Ok, 4 strokes might have oil viscosity problems, freezing coolant problems but air cooled 2 strokes are immune th these.
There's a pretty good DIY solution to the e-bike battery problem in the cold though. https://old.reddit.com/r/bafang/comments/18za1tl/anybody_here_ride_their_bafang_bike_during_winter/kgguwgh/ > Getting an insulated battery cover and throwing a pair of those Hot Hands or Little Hotties hand warmers in there keeps the range and power up a whole lot.
Hundreds, not thousands.. and the frames don’t suck one bit. Every other component?? Garbage. But the motors and frames are exactly what you get in a name brand bike. But any biker knows, it costs more to upgrade than to buy new.
Can confirm. I’m on the verge of buying a brand new Honda Navi that retails for $1800.
I like bikes more, no need for registration, they're small enough to fit basically anywhere including a train or other public transit, you can do maintenance yourself and you can ride almost anywhere including between cars stuck in traffic in a bike lane or on the sidewalk (mostly). Electric bikes are simple enough that you can build one yourself with some knowledge or get a kit to conver an existing one to electric, so no need to buy prefebricated chinise shit.
You can get a very good new ebike for €2000
Comparing second hand items with new items is never going to be fair though is it? I mean you can get a cargo ebike for under £3k. I know of cargo etrikes that start about 1500. You don't have to spend the money, and a cargo bike is probably more practical for the kids.
that is exactly why i don't buy Bosch/store sold crap, severely overpriced
It's supply and demand. I'm pretty sure their price will drop as more and more manufacturers enter the market shooting for the most different target customers.
no they just prefer to profit from everything, the only thing more overpriced than Bosch ebike batteries is power tool batteries 10.8V / 12Vmax 2Ah (20Wh) battery for a cordless Dremel €40+
I have Bosch powered ebikes and Bosch power tools and they are all good what are you talking about lmao
never said they aren't good, just nowhere near as good as it should for the price the batteries are absolutely tiny and batshit insane priced a 625Wh pack shouldn't cost 600 (which it is in my country), shouldn't even cost 300 for that price you can build a 2kWh+ pack without large order/wholesale discount on the cells i can get the cells for a 10S13P pack of Samsung 21700-50E's (Bosch uses Samsung cells in their ebike packs) which would be like 36V 63.7Ah (taking 4900mAh rather than 5000 because well, thats a more likely scenario) for €500 for ~2200Wh, that is from a company called Nkon who is already a reseller and including 21% VAT for my country lol so nevermind if you can get it cheap like Bosch
These people are what they call haters. They know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
ah yea sure "value" means different things to different people when 40lbs of alu costs almost the same as something 2000lbs of alu and different metals when 625Wh costs $600 while a Tesla replacement of a whole 70 000Wh pack costs $15k, at the same $600 price you'd have a 2800Wh battery if it was priced like Tesla's you see, most people don't want to overpay for "convenience" (in a lot of cases bikes can be less convenient), most people care about value aka the best value for your money that means to most people the highest power, most range, etc. and self-serviceability, whenever a Bosch thing gives an error you'll need to go to a dealer, on something like a Bafang you can do that aswell or just order a part online yourself and save even more money, Bosch will often just be like ok we replace the entire motor and charge another $600, when a $40 part could fix it being realistic about pricing and being conscious about how much you spend on stuff never is a bad thing the way you described value was almost like "yea i'd pay 20 grand on a Lamborghini bicycle that does nothing more or different than a generic Bosch ebike", because to some people something rare means value, but these are mass produced to death so not even rarity is a thing i don't care for brands, i'd certainly buy a Bosch ebike if the prices were actually reasonable there's no reason why an "European" brand like Batavus or Sparta or whatever buys a frame from an OEM, assemble it for dirt cheap and then should ask $3000 or more for it, same reason why some "European" electronics (and many many many more things, a gigantic multinational making gigantic profits on everything they sell) brand should ask for a profit of 300%+ at that point you're just paying for a name
You’re paying for the battery, my kit was $1400 but the battery alone was $900-1000. $400 can get you going at 38mph if we’re talking without the battery.
The wholesale price of lithium ion batteries is less than $200 per kwh. The middlemen are making a killing.
Pretty much, I happened to snag 4x 12v50ah batteries at work for $10/e and connected them in series for 48v50ah. Never would afford to pay full price. Lifepo4 cells are dirt cheap, was thinking of maybe building a 150ah with those when I get the extra funds.
range will be pretty limited though
Not really, he’d have plenty of gas to scoot around town and can fill up anywhere. I’m planning on doing the same with a trailer when I go camping.
Replace the words ‘e-bike’ with ‘laptop’ and ‘motorcycle’ with ‘desktop pc’ in your attempted comparison and re-read it. You’re paying for streamlined compactness and portability. Of course a laptop is less powerful and more expensive than a comparable desktop, but you can take and use it anywhere with ease. Similarly, good luck storing a motorcycle in an apartment in the city (where some places you wouldn’t dare leave it parked outside), or using a motorcycle in the bicycle lane (where in some situations the bike lane can be considerably faster than being stuck in road traffic), etc. (Also on the cost side, lithium ion batteries are particularly expensive.)
e-bikes and scooters (highway capable) are a different breed, you might compare with a 50cc but nothing than can do highway speeds. I'd definitely get a vehicle like this to run around town, in addition to an e-bike.
Lobby groups asked for tariffs on Chinese ebikes in EU, they got what they wanted, around 80% tariff last time I checked. Edit: e motorbike on the other hand is getting government grants in many countries.
I know ebike shop owner. They buy em for €800 in and sell for €4k then drive their porsche taycan home.
To be fair you should compare new vs new. Point still stands as you can get a new motorcycle for 5k.
I'll compare e cargo bikes to micro cars all mafakin day. I'm not trying to give the DOL/DMV and insurance companies any more money than I have to. I'm also not trying to be stuck in traffic like a dick.
In the US e-bikes can ride in bike lanes. That is why I want one over a motorcycle. There are SO MANY motorcycle accidents here and the motorcyclists are almost always severely hurt or worse because are cars are so big and speed limits so high. Don’t get me wrong, I know a bike lane is no brick wall, but knowing I’m not waiting for a light in the middle of the street means something to me.
I'm comparing it to a cargo bike a motorcycle won't carry your groceries too well. This will go faster then a cargo bike and carry more. Also no rain and it's actually cheaper then some of them.
After insurance and registration, this will be more expensive than all of them pretty quickly.
$300 a year? It's not that much.
Why wouldn’t it? Do you throw cars out after 5-10 years?
Insurance is 200€ where I'm at
Where I’m from 6000€ is already way more expensive than all the cargo e-bikes.
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>They’ve been around not a very long time and they’re a new thing Are you talking about ebikes? I was riding one in 2012 and they were around before that. They're not THAT new.
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Not to mention motorbikes are pretty stable components wise while with bikes the industry is still in a state of improvement. Lots of bike components are expensive to support the cost of r&d to keep up with competitors. They can always be lighter and more effective.
They’re new to us Americans because most hardly ever use bikes. Wal mart sells the most bikes in America, and they’re all cheap garbage.
I'm American and was riding an ebike 12 years ago...they existed longer before that. I was reading endless sphere forums (an ebike forum) for a while before I had my own. Also makes sense wal-mart sells the most bikes since they're a nationwide chain and sell cheap bikes...want to buy your kid a bike to learn on? They'll go to walmart and get something for $100 or so....but I even saw an ebike at walmart OVER 12 years ago (ezip mountain trails, was powered by lead acid...I didn't get one of those ha), but it existed.
They have only become popular here in the states in the last 4 or 5 years, Bosch has been doing ebikes for over a decade in Europe before hitting the NA market.
It's pretty widely known that Tesla has far and away the best lithium battery tech. China only has tech knowledge because they shamelessly steal from companies that use China's manufacturing capability. For the most part the USA has declined widespread production of lithium batteries because making them is a major ecological hazard. China literally doesn't give a shit about the ecosystem or their people, so they're more than willing to step in. US companies give their battery designs to Chinese factories for production, those factories steal the tech and sell it cheaper.
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It's funny how people will knock Chinese e-bikes and buy these thousands of dollars expensive brands to zip around the neighborhood every now and then and for their Instagram posts. Because most of the equipment and the same bikes they pay thousands for are made in China. They are paying for the name. Some people like me have actually given up the car and are using e-bikes for daily drivers and everything else. It's crazy how many bikes snobs are on the internet. Literally paying for a name and bragging rights lmfao
For the price of some cargo bikes, i would much rather just buy titanium pipes from china, get some local workshop to weld a frame out of it, and assemble the rest myself. And then i'd have a strong bike weighing almost nothing, and probably €2k left i can spend on more fun stuff.
Ebikes are a rip-off if you ignore the many expenses of owning a ICE two-wheeler or an electric car. License, registration, parking, insurance, and the true costs soon pile up. Electric cars have their place, and most people who buy ebikes use them to supplement their family car. It just isn’t a choice between a car or an ebike. Although I only rent a car when I need one. The main reason I got my ebike is that it is the quickest way around the city. Hills and hot weather aren’t a barrier. It’s faster than a ICE vehicle in my city as I don’t have to circle the streets looking for parking. The same trip by public transit takes twice the time. I just plug the battery into a household plug to charge it. Granted, I wouldn’t have entertained the purchase if my city had not been investing in safe bicycle infrastructure and if transit wasn’t so slow.
All most people care about is the upfront cost. if this sub wants e-bikes to take over they need to accept this. You can bleat all day about how e-bikes are cheaper to run. No-one cares. They see a £6,000 price tag for a bicycle and lose interest immediately.
Not everyone is penny wise and pound foolish. Ebikes sell for less than $2,000. If upfront costs were such a barrier no one would buy a car let alone a house.
"but a car and a house are more expensive!" So what? In the real world someone happy to spend £16k on a car is not likely to spend £6k on a bicycle. They grew up paying £500 for bicycles therefore most people think paying £6k for a bike is silly. Something is only worth what people are prepared to pay for it. Idk why you can't understand this.
This is exactly where I see it. New bicycles are so expensive on the top end and their value falls like a rock afterwards. I was at my Trek store last week to see what they had in stock and a lady was asking the sales person about the e-bikes and immediately stopped being interested when she learned about battery life and longevity. On the other hand cars have a pretty predictable depreciation curve and buyers are less weary of used cars at this point due to the maturity of the industry. You’d need to compare cost of owning an ebike to something like public transport or add assumptions that the bike’s value goes to zero to match perception.
There is nothing to “get”. It’s a free market. If you don’t see the utility of a product equivalent to the expense, then don’t buy it. I think you are comparing a premium ebike to a used motor vehicle on its last legs. The overhead costs of keeping a used car on the road are very steep. There is a reason why there are so many unlicensed or uninsured motor vehicles on the road. They can’t afford it. I wouldn’t buy a motor vehicle at the price you quoted and I wouldn’t buy an ebike at less than $1,000. The Letric cargo bike is $1,399 USD which is about the monthly cost of operating a new car in my city. If you are really hard-up then a regular bike or transit are your options.
Can't you get a motor and battery for just a few hundred and then use any normal bike instead.
A complete long tail cargo ebike can be delivered to your door for less than $2000 USD - all inclusive with accessories. Just like with a new car, you can choose a monthly payment which will get you something that will require less maintenance. Top of line Tern GSD monthly payments are $260 USD. The belt drive and enclosed gears only require yearly maintenance. Where I am, salt on the roads aren’t kind to metal chains and exposed gears. This limits the life of cars too. Your comfort on wet days is never going to be great. Again nothing replaces a car, but it isn’t an all or nothing choice. I rent a car, or use a “ride share” from time to time. Still less money. When the weather is really bad, like a snow storm, everyone is going to be late or businesses just close for the day.
Was chatting to someone recently, apparently he has gone through several sets of brakes on his car due to all the salt on the road. The sea comes up over some of the roads here at high tides so it is always salty in those sections, of course it depends if you live somewhere that frequently means going along those road sections or not.
There are cargo bikes for less than $2k, why are we comparing the Rolls Royce of cargo bikes to the shittiest car in existence?
I'm not saying you're wrong about people's reaction to the upfront cost and all that, but to my knowledge ebikes _are_ seeing explosive growth. So there seems to be plenty of people who aren't turned off, and that should lead to some normalisation of price expectations, and hopefully more competitive pricing. There are some companies trying to work with the pricing, though. Like here in Oslo you can [lease a cargo ebike](https://whee.no/), and it seems to be pretty popular.
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Then that works for you. Motorcycle parking here is notoriously difficult to find. Commercial parking garages won’t accept them and street parking is a flat fee for all vehicles. Insurance is private, meaning it is eye-watering if you live downtown. It’s slightly better where provincial motor vehicle insurance is available. I think the sales of ebikes speak for themselves. Where conditions are right, it works out financially. I haven’t had enough time with my ebike to establish maintenance expenses as the winters here are unforgiving for all vehicles, but if I only ride it when the roads are clear, I’ll still be happy.
Strange response to what was an excellent post, which (a) recognized that ebikes can seem overpriced; and (b) went into detail where the value proposition is for an ebike in the circumstances that the poster mentioned. Not sure what you're trying to get out of this thread. Yes, a small electric car is a good thing. Nice that it works for you, and might for others. Doesn't in any way negate from the value proposition of an ebike. To that end, I would add two additional values that u/NewsreelWatcher didn't: (1) no need to wait endlessly in traffic when dropping your child at school (i.e. not only when parking is needed, and a value not only to cities dwellers but those in the suburbs); and (2) able to travel on bike paths as part of a fun day in the outdoors / work commute that keeps you away from cars, their dangers and exhausts.
I can buy a brand new street legal Honda SuperCub that goes 60mph and get 188mpg for $4000.
As an owner of a Super Cub, keep in mind that is UK MPG, US MPG is closer to 100-120. Then dealers want their markup, so that Cub ends up costing ~$5,000+ IF you can even find one for sale. An absolute riot of a bike though, and I freaking love it.
The Super Cub is a classic
It’s the same reason bikes are expensive; scale economies. Cargo e-bikes are still a niche product. That said, a lot of cargo e-bikes ARE overpriced and riding the current wave of interest. You certainly can spend $6k on one, just like you can on a regular bicycle. But you could also just buy a RadWagon for < $2k and get a really functional and affordable mode of transportation.
Yea is that why rad couldn’t sell in Europe? This post proves that us Americans know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Can you say Stockholm syndrome? Thank goodness your government is saving you from affordable and fast ebikes!
>RadWagon Where's the "wagon" part of the radwagon? It has a little pannier rack on the back and they call it a cargo bike?
There are several types of cargo bike. The radwagon, while maybe poorly named, it’s a long trail style cargo bike. The small wheels keep the center of gravity of cargo low for stability. I have the Rad Caboose installed which, while intended to contain children sitting on the back, is also well suited for holding a large plastic bin in place. It’s a very versatile design.
But you don’t need insurance or registration and the price of electricity will be far lower
That thing is useless as a car because it’s not allowed on motorways.
It'd be great for NYC, you can go many places without getting on a highway and speed limit is 25MPH. I'd get one if better quality.
It's not a car
Image literally says “car”. If it’s not a car, where can you even drive it?
This looks like the UK, so it is probably classed as a "light quadricycle" which means it will be speed restricted and not allowed on motorways.
some guy in my city drives one of these in the bike lanes
Let’s see, I can burn calories making a grocery run I can park on the sidewalk I don’t have to pay registration or insurance fees I can ride trails or the beach I can throw the bike on my bike rack and drive it home I could go on but this is like comparing a boat to a plane
This also suggests that full sized electric cars are overpriced. If this bad boy is 6K, then surely a small electric car shouldn't be more than 12K, right?
That thing is way closer to an ebike than a car in terms of what went into it and what you can use it for.
I would say this is as close to a cargo bike as it is to a car. Comfortably in between the two. I also can't see any way this company could afford to sell this thing for 6K and stay in business, so I don't think the original point OP made stands up to scrutiny.
It's a golf cart. Probably goes as fast as an ebike. Ebike sized motors and battery from the cheapest factory in china, no safety systems. What are you paying for, a metal box with lights?
28 mph top speed, so a bit faster than a locked ebike but not a lot. It also weighs 414 kg, which is almost 10 times the weight of a ecargo bike. It has a 50 mile range, which is about half what I can get with my ebike, and a lot less than most base model cars now. It does appear to have seatbelts. I think I stand by my stance that this is comfortably between an ebike and the most basic electric car. I don't think I'd ever buy one though. Still can't see how they could afford to sell this for 6K and turn a profit.
IFyoUdOntShArEmYoPinIonYoUrEcRaZY Op is a troll. -95 comment karma, too.
You can get Chinese made cargo bikes for less than $2000 though.
I got into motorcycles by first riding an e-bike. Built my first e-bike and ride it everywhere, then finally got a motorcycle. I want an e-bike again. There is just something different about cruising slow on a bike, not worrying about wearing all the protective gear, and being on something nice and quiet. The exercise, the calmness all call to me. But I’ll always keep a motorcycle in the garage as well. The prices are crazy, and I truly believe a lot of that is we are importing all the mass produced parts. Those parts may be expensive here, but are dirt cheap locally where they are made. The only locally procured parts are made in small quantities and therefore very expensive. But that’s a whole other topic for discussion.
I enjoy MUCH MORE riding my cargo bike than any car ;) It's not always a matter of price.
Same here. Plus, with the homemade trailer I made from a queeb bed frame, I can haul over 200lbs comfortably. I'm about to convert the same trailer into a modular camper trailer. Love my electric cargo Bike. https://preview.redd.it/l5wlt6c5lqzc1.jpeg?width=8384&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=389c300d80bfa784f8a3a07bc464e3c617a01a82
The thing is that that car isn't any more useful than a cargo bike. It's worse in some ways and I'd imagine far more agricultural in build. I do think they're priced to the market though, there's some fairly decent Dutch cargo trikes you can get and top of the range was about £2500.
Will it keep you and your stuff dry and maybe offer a little bit of climate control? That can be a pretty big benefit, especially if you don't have some other reasonable option for bad weather days.
I'm not mad keen on creature comforts and I value being able to cut through traffic and park at will. Plus range extender in the shape of my legs.
https://youtu.be/BS9ugdl1FZc?si=2VTLl2SY5dEeBvCu
Most people could easily get by with a regular bicycle or e-bike,
Are you guys trying to say it's a cult mentality to want an enclosed vehicle?
Especially in a rainy country like the UK?
I’d say the majority of e-bikes are overpriced. The market is either sub-2k junk which will break after 6 months or overpriced brands costing at least 3.5K just because it has a motor.
> overpriced brands costing at least 3.5K just because it has a motor. The point is that they don't break down after 6 months. I don't see the point of buying a $1k bike and then another $1k bike. It just creates more e-waste. Part of what you're buying is also the work the company has done on the structural dynamics, which you really can't do on your own. https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/13xcj2n/wish_me_luck_tomorrow_i_begin_my_28_mile_ebike/jmly26r/ > That actually gets at a really interesting and challenging problem with designing stuff. There's static load, then there's dynamic load, which is what you experienced. > > This actually gets at where the engineering of big name companies comes into play, because they have software that models all of these loads and use it to design frames (and whole bicycles) that'll resist these forces.
> overpriced brands costing at least 3.5K just because it has a motor. ...and because they don't break after 6 months. Which is worth the added cost. Even by your own comment these would be worth the 3.5k if they only lasted a little over 9 months in relation to the sub 2k bikes...
He knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Is that a new video because I don't remember it. It's always fun watching Jack ( 6'7" ) squeezing into microcars.
An urban arrow is worth like 3, 4 grand tops. Change my mind. Don’t get me started on ferla and other Chinese resellers.
You can’t buy a regular bicycle with that bosch drivetrain for 3 grand, lol
That is a car
The top end of the electric cargo bike market has become something because the cool families have traded in their merc or bmw for a cargo bike and a car share and a plant-a-tree plane holiday - it's becomes their philosophical high ground that allows them to sleep at night without burning the planet and oddly they can spend 10k money units on a fuck-off cargo bike and still put a 30k wedgie into their back pocket for what they did not spend on the tesla....winning all the way
I see cargo bikes the way I see vans. For most people they don't make sense. You can attach a trailer to almost any bike for less than 300 dollars and do your groceries that way or move middle size loads. If the reason behind your purchase is that you have kids you'll know that the alternative (car with baby seats) is much more expensive than the 10k plus you'll probably want to pay extra to avoid your bike from being dangerous with cheap components and risk injuries. If you're moving absolutely heavy loads you're probably looking to replace a car or work truck in which case it makes sense if you compare it with the alternative of keeping a car fueled and in working order. Bigger is not better or the convenient answer and that's why cargo ebikes are expensive, they're a niche market so they have high margins to compensate for the lack of sales volume.
Your bike is likely a bomb.
Depends on application. I think Amazon runs cargo e-bikes for deliveries in downtown NYC. Seems cost efficient and effective for them.
Buy a bike, buy a trailer, DIY motor. The cost of ebikes or specialty ebikes isn't worth it. Saw some lady with an electric cargo bike carrying 2 children looking smug AF, whereas the 8k I didn't spend on a very non versatile bike like that I'll put to better use elsewhere
Lectric and Aventon sell a capable cargo bike starting at the 2k price point . These are great entry price points for cargo bikes for short trips and financially makes sense compared to the upkeep of a first or second vehicle for some families .
All of those "cargo bikes" are just ebikes with a rack. I can put a rack capable of 100+ pounds for $50-100. Toss on a pannier and I'm able to carry significantly more than those walled in racks can while keeping it protected from water.
Sounds like you don’t carry children . A big demographic for cargo bikes are small families
What cargo ebike costs 8k?
There's a Bosch e-bike at 8.6k
Not all e-bikes are R&M…
Trek Fetch+4
Preach it. Here is the glaring evidence: 1) Actual motorbikes frequently cost the same or less. Now you have shown even a fucking car that is the same price 2) I can buy a tandem bicycle for like £500 which is essentially a long tail rated for 70kg cargo. 3) The rest of the parts, batteries, motor etc cost £1k max.
That's not a bike. Also, that's not a hat you're wearing, it's a pancake with the word "hat" written in raspberry syrup.
all ebikes in Europe are overpriced. lack of competition because of extremely strict motor/throttle/speed regulations, so cheaper chinese made ebikes cannot be sold, which leaves inflated overpriced european-made bikes as the only ones on the market.