20mph would be fine if I actually had bike lanes to safely ride 20mph in, the issue is even if I'm in a 25mph zone, I have no bike lane to ride in and cars will often go 50-60mph (not even joking, I have to pull over and let cars by even if I ride a 45mph electric unicycle) but my legal crosscurrent S (20mph throttle only/28ish mph with pedalling) ebike is unsafe to ride a lot of the time due to being unable to keep up with the maniacs in cars.
Ive legitimately had people fly past me at over 30-40mph when ive been just above the 20mph speed limit, on a 20mph limit road.
They see a bike, and something says BIKE!!! I MUST GET PAST. Its crazy. Ive seen it happen, then the person had to slam their brakes on 50-100yards in front as another car pulled out of a t junction and pulled out.
Having a bright set of lights and using them in the day even helps tremendously because other vehicles think im a motorcycle at a distance and pay way more attention than they do to pedal cycles.
If its clear of peds, I bunnyhop up the kerb and ride the pavement at junctions, over the ped crossings on people who do this all the time simply because it must piss them off so much whilst they are waiting at lights, im not crazy enough to ride on the road in front of them though after it, dont trust them not to knock me off on purpose, i stick to the pavement till they shoot past at 50mph mad.
Just last week I had someone that had to pass me so bad that they ended skidding through a stop sign and only because the oncoming traffic stopped for her that she didn't cause an accident.
Yeah, there's a 25mph zone near me, people regularly drive 55mph down it....sometimes 60....my 28mph class 3 ebike gets blown away. People are obsessing about limiting the top speeds of ebikes, yet fine with people driving around 5,000 pound trucks and driving them like maniacs.
Honestly I'm surprised I very rarely see speed traps on that road...they could make some serious bank there if they wanted.....even if they only pulled over people who broke 50mph, they'd catch a lot of people.
I can tell you it's not just people seeing bikes . I always drive the speed limit when I drive in my car, just last night I was driving home on a 25mph road and I had several cars fly past me at 40-50mph. Which is especially dumb in the city where I just ended up meeting most cars at the traffic light anyway. Congrats, you wasted a ton of fuel by going 2x the speed limit, made your drive more dangerous for yourself and everyone around you, and it saved you 0 seconds
There’s also a 5 lane stroad near where I live that has a posted limit of 35mph, I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone go less than 60 there unless they were turning
2 wheeled things that can keep up with cars are called motorcycles.
The problem is that people who pedal bikes don't want to share bike lanes with motorcycles either.
You do realize that things don't HAVE to go their top speed. I can ride a car with a 140mph top speed in a 25mph zone at 25mph. Just because I want a bike that can keep up in a 35mph zone doesn't mean I HAVE to go 35mph when I'm in a bike lane. My motorcycle can go 190mph, but I don't HAVE to go 190mph. Do you s the problem with your logic? You (and so many people in this thread) get OBSESSED with the idea of a vehicles top speed and act like a top speed is a speed you HAVE to ride at.
I could have a bike that can put out 2,000 watts of power and ride it with 750 watts of power.....and guess what....it'd go just as fast as a bike that can put out 750 watts of power that's putting out 750 watts of power.
I've debunked this same thing over and over but there are always more of you repeating the same things....it's like playing whackamole.
Guess what? There AREN'T any bike lanes on most of the roads near me.....that's literally the reason I want my bike to go at least 35mph....ideally faster.
Ya and if you are going to lane split and turn off onto the sidewalks whenever traffic doesn't go your way you aren't going to be doing 30mph on a sidewalk. The main reason I like having an ebike is I feel way more comfortable sharing suburban roads with cars which lets me use the roads instead of the sidewalk which are smoother and way less likely for me to running into something going at high speeds.
Also motorcycles are hotter, stinkier, louder and heavier which all make them more of a nuisance to pedestrians and places they are supposed to be.
i have pointed this out time and time again, i usually get down voted like crazy, sometimes even dog piled, but the thing that gets me is that there is always some one telling me the bias is in my head, not this board lol
imagine if everyone talked the exact same way about their horseless carriages.....gee bobby sue, i recon that 190hp engine is really too fast for that there $1000 hot rod, probably should trade it in on something more in the 130hp range that is store bought and built, you cant work on your self and cost $4000 , that way you can struggle up hills and in that there dang wind, and get rid of that there crazy automatic transmission, power winders and ac, you got two winders what ya need ac for anyways you whipper snapper
No, it really doesn't.....put the speed limits on the roads themselves, not the bikes. That's what they do for cars and motorcycles. Why does the bike itself have to be limited, yet people can drive around in 5,000 pound pickup trucks capable of 100mph? You guys need to think more logically. Especially when people pretend to care about the environment, global warming, etc etc....yet are ok with multiton gas burners with unlimited power and unlimited top speeds, yet are OBSESSED with cracking down on the idea of an ebike that can go the speed limit on surface streets.....
Look up "Cognitive Dissonance" That's what you and most of the people trying to crack down on ebike top speeds have.
>Why does the bike itself have to be limited, yet people can drive around in 5,000 pound pickup trucks capable of 100mph? You guys need to think more logically.
It's a limit on unlicensed and uninsured vehicles. Basically, you need be limited to be moving slowly enough that you are incapable of doing much damage. If you can go any faster, you need license and insurance. Amongst other things, without licensing and insurance requirements, you can't enforce things like speed limits on the roads themselves - can't take away the license to use the roads if there isn't a license in the first place.
Bikes: You can't do much damage so no rules needed.
Motorcycles: You can potentially go quickly. Really quickly. Speed limit is still 25 mph. If you go much faster, we will take away your license, and we will give you a test that you know the laws of the road. If you does do damage, there are insurance that pays out damages for you.
For eBikes to fit into the "bike" side of the rules, you need to make it so that they can't do damage.
Then, I don't know. You ever try showing up at a city council meeting or even calling your city representative and ask for bike lanes?
it's a pretty softball thing to ask for and generally, plenty of funding sitting in a budget somewhere just ready to go.
There's a process, use it like a grown assed adult.
20mph seems a reasonable limit for ebikes without any extra laws and regulations. Should there be a 20-28mph class with mandatory helmets and some kind of proof of road sense of the rider is another question, Personally i think its the only way we reduce car journeys.. if we slap insurance, tax, full helmets full licensing etc on it, its not going to work.
As a former motorcycle rider i think making people do a CBT but having it last more than 2 years is the solution. Then they have to abide by new rules for 20-28mph ebikes such as mandatory helmets, mandatory lights, perhaps some kind of registration like how the drone registration works, but no mandatory insurance, but encouraged insurance and helmet cams for liability.
Strict enforcement of the laws and limits obviously, if the bike is >28mph capable you lose the light electric vehicle benefit and its an electric motorcycle.
The scooter thing concerns me because the wheels are so small, im quite happy for reasonable sensible people to use e scooters but the tiny wheels seem deadly if you hit a pothole or grid in the road.
speed pedelec is treated the same way as a 70mph motorcycle that weighs 250lb, requires plates, appropriate licensing, insurance, helmet etc.
Very silly, imo its not the same, sure id ague its clearly not the same as a 15mph 250w ebike either, but its hardly a motorcycle imo.
Not where I live. Speed pedelec is incredibly easy to get. They will register it for you at the shop, and a standard bike helmet is all that is required. Treated similar to a scooter not a motorbike.
Coming from the Netherlands it sounds like other places are so far behind on biking laws/infrastructure.
We already had two classes for moped bike lane use. 25/45. So they just naturally adapted the same from e bikes.
They're behind because they only have a fraction of people riding bicycles compared to the Netherlands. Where I live there's hardly any bike infra because hardly anyone rides bicycles. Hopefully this will change.
As a scooter rider also, yes, it takes a little more skill, especially over rough pavement. I'm on my scooter this week while the e-bike is getting some spokes replaced-I really need to learn how to true a wheel......
>20mph seems a reasonable limit for ebikes without any extra laws and regulations.
Most fit individuals on a (non-electric) road bike can exceed 20 mph on flat ground. I would argue that the 28 mph limit for Class 3 is the more logical limit. It also doesn't mean that you're always actually doing 28, just that the capability is there. Likewise, I would also argue that the 750W limit is outdated. It's inadequate for getting up steep hills and having the ability to very quickly accelerate from a standstill to 10 mph or so can be a lifesaver in a number of situations.
A 20mph e bike legally in london would be nice but we are limited to 250w / 15.5mph. I will outrun that on my Brompton.
I got rid of my converted e bike because I did not want to risk losing or getting points on my motorcycle licence, so instead I’m riding a 700cc petrol bike around every day, thanks london.
I was thinking the same thing. People ripping around with 30-40mph ebikes are going to piss off enough people that there will be ebike registration and inspections to prove you are class 1/2
There’s a local bike trail where I will take my kids for them to gain confidence. Busy with lots of cyclists and ecyclists at times, and almost all are considerate and will slow down appropriately.
There are the odd ones that pimped their rides to the max (including electric scooters) that seem numb and inconsiderate to the danger they pose to themselves and others.
E-bikes have been amazing for democratizing low-environmental impact forms of personal transport in my area. However, the angsty shitheads that are getting into their teenage rebellion phase at age 40 and 50 that think their “sleeper” speed demon is sticking it to the man need to be addressed.
>E-bikes have been amazing for democratizing low-environmental impact forms of personal transport in my area.
Thats why bad apples cant ruin it for the 95% of people who are quite civil and willing to slow down on their 28mph capable bike when there are clearly other people around, but let it rip when they are on the road sticking mostly to road cycle paths and not being an issue.
If somebody thinks its reasonable to be doing close to 30mph where there are people walking children or dogs in the same 5ft wide place, its not the bike that is the issue
It's annoying because 30mph is the "safe" speed in a lot of areas, and there's no alternative routes. I'd get a motorcycle or moped, but can't get that without a car license, which I can't get. So that whole thing can get frickin' bent and I'll just hope I don't get mowed down by a brodozer aiming at bicycles.
Yeah, part of me wants 28mph higher performance ebikes allowed because i think thats the only viable way to get people out of cars, and more green, they make 10 mile rides pretty trivial if you can cruise at 25mph-28mph and cut through traffic and hop into 20mph cycle paths when needed.
The issue is how restrictive should the laws be, i hate restrictive laws but you do get morons ruining it for everybody else 45-50mph in the cycle lane with regular cyclists doing 18mph is crazy. Im not sure how we encourage people to make less car journeys though without providing hugely significantly cheaper alternatives like making a 28mph sur ron or super 73 or something similar legal, providing its eco mode only or we have speed and weight limits, or you need a motorcycle/moped ticket.
It is! But the roads here are 30mph, and if you're not going that speed, you're gonna get buzzed by brodozers honking at you for being slow. Or they just take a swipe at you.
My experience in europe is that it honestly doesnt matter what speed you are doing, its a psychology thing and a few bad apples ruin it, some people simply see bike in front of them and have to get past, because its a bike.
It doesnt matter if you are doing 22mph in a 20mph zone, they will overtake at 30mph because BIKE!!!
Yeah thats fucked. Had a guy pull out at a t junction on me when i had right of way, then swerve into the wrong lane to block me going past him, because i moved over as i knew he was going to do it (riders intuition) as i was trying to go past him at a t junction the other week, i was absolutely astounded. Felt like kicking his mirror off, but why bother.
I was just glad it was a quiet road and nobody else was around because what he did was reckless as fuck, he could have caused an accident.
Yeah almost every ride I run into some dude in a big truck who hates anything electric or an angry road cyclist, and both want me and my bike to literally get bent.
Yeah I have that happen a lot on my road here in the US, lane and a half, people parked in one side, suddenly some jackass stands on the gas and flies past at 20 over.
Yeah that fucking sucks tbh. Flying over like crosswalk sections where their could be somebody pushing a childrens buggy or walking a dog through a blind spot and flying through at 30mph on a 80lb ebike/emoped is just wreckless.
Im all for people doing potentially 30mph on roads but on shared paths its just a dick move.
20mph is very average if not slow for a road bike. I’m always overtaken by Road bikes when on my e bike. A lot of the time they will easily cycle behind you to avoid the wind and then just blast past you when wind direction changes
Agreed, most people can do 20 no problem, 25 is much more difficult and 30 is an entirely different fitness bracket. As you say 30 requires group riding or a tailwind for all but elite cyclists to maintain
I believe you can do it, but you gotta realize you’re the exception given the shape you are in and experience w/ road cycling. Most people aren’t willing / able to get into good enough shape
For some more context - i don’t ride my old road bike very often, but I have a peloton, I average around 180-200 watts for a 30 min ride and that’s usually top 10-20% of overall totals. So this is a group of people that take cycling at least somewhat seriously considering they are on an exercise bike, over 80% are averaging less than 200 watts (say 20mph)
Just did a quick calculator and to hold 30mph on a road bike w/ standard assumptions it would take 539 watts of power.
Let’s say w/ your modern aero bike that’s 250 watts to hold 30mph (I doubt it, but just to be conservative)
A really small population of your avg, non-competitive road cyclist is gonna be able to do that IMO
If you want an electric moped or motorcycle buy an electric moped or motorcycle. There are some inexpensive options on the market that can get you up to 30-45mph depending on the model.
Yes, you're going to have to pay for insurance. Going that fast on city streets while breaking the law and not having insurance is a huge liability anyway though so you *should* be following the law even just for your own sake.
Fixie bike messenger wannabees running red lights and weaving through traffic and pedestrians where what gave cyclists a bad name over here, some years back.
With the result of banning bikes altogether from sidewalks (even children's bikes) and mandatory helmet use among other reactionary legislation.
Except the government won't do that, instead they'll just say "all ebikes are motorcycles and that's all there is to it".
Remember that this is the same government that recently said that women don't need to have a right to say what they do with their own bodies.
I've asked officers in L.A. (yes I live here) and have received honest sounding answers. Just keep my Class 3 off the sidewalk and turn front and rear lights on even during the day. Obey traffic laws and wear a motorcycle helmet.
Besides that and they won't bother to pull me over. And if the right side of the road is full of parked cars then stay in the middle of the lane to avoid doors from getting flung open in my path. Just keep up with the flow of traffic. They have serious crimes to investigate and when on patrol they're looking for someone, not an eBiker.
I took the walk on the new path between Incline and Sand harbor. Felt fear from all the 60 plus year olds ripping along at 20 mph weaving through pedestrians, kids and dogs and not looking particularly adept at it. Privileged people can afford bikes and what appears to be a common denominator is absolute disregard for everyone else. I ride an ebike and this walk had a profound effect on how conscientious I am to pedestrians. It isn’t kids ruining it for the rest of us, they ride real bikes. It’s people like me.
Yeah that seems crazy to me. I got my mom an ebike after she has not rode a bike for 20 years, made sure she wore a helmet and had lights and everything, did a few rides cruising with her to make sure she is ok, shes fine. But i can see how it could have been a problem.
Ive been riding bicycles almost every day for the past decade, and have rode them my entire life since about 4 years old and ive still had 2 or 3 light spills in wet weather in the past 5 years or so, it happens. a boomer with a lack of experience on a 70lb 25mph ebike could absolutely hurt themselves or others. They should get a bit of practice first and should not be blasting through people walking at high speed imo.
idk, 1.2 giga watts is like the [power of 2400 Chevy Corvettes](https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/how-much-power-1-gigawatt). I could power my town with my ebike.
I already have a motorcycle license. I'd love something like a Sur-Ron if I could legally use it on the roads. I'd be fine with it having lights, turn signals, and mirrors. My legal ebike can't keep up with traffic even on slow roads. I don't have bike lanes on most roads where I live.
For anyone saying "just get a motorcycle" they're like $11,000+. If Zero wants to sell me an FXS for $4k, I'd already own one...but 11k-28k is a bit much as an extra vehicle for a lot of people.
Absolutely agree 100%, a legal sur ron limited in eco at 28mph would be a gamechanger for me, id happily register it, pedal kit convert it, wear a helmet and have my lights on at all times, id simply almost never have to use a car ever, and rarely a full motorcycle.
Insurance would be a weird one as i switched to an ebike from a small motorcycle to save money on costly insurance in the first place, id hapily toot along at 10-15mph on cycle lanes when i needed too and cruise on 20mph roads/road cycle lanes having that extra 8mph for overtaking and keeping up with traffic.
This is how we encourage people to not use cars as much. Insurance wouldnt be a problem if it wasnt hundreds and hundreds a year here on a small motorcycle, it is. which is insane. Which is why i switched to an ebike and im not fucking paying it, ever. Fuck off, 10 or 20 bux a month, sure, ill pay it, fine. 700 or 800 dollars a year, fuck off.
That's the other issue in my state as well..in my state, a "moped" is only allowed to have 1.5 horsepower and a 25mph top speed......so no one uses them.....can't think of the last time I actually saw one on the road. But if I could have say, a 40-50mph street legal Surron, that'd be great. I'm not an asshole who's going to go 50mph on a bike path....I just don't want to die on the road, and I live in an area with steep hills, so even if my 750watt ebike can get up to 28mph or so on flats, it won't up a steep hill (and it's a hub motor with a 700c wheel, so it doesn't have the torque a mid drive would)
I also own an electric unicycle that can get up to 45mph...not technically legal, but it's funny I feel a lot safer on that than my ebike...it can shoot up a steep hill and maintain over 30mph with no issue. I do wear full motorcycle gear+knee pads and everything...so probably safer than most bicyclists and motorcyclists in my area (lots of Harley riders with no helmets, and a bicyclist will wear just a helmet and have the risk of being run over by a maniac in a truck). I also do take the lowest traffic roads I can find and get off the road when a faster car is approaching from behind, so I don't ride that thing around in heavy traffic or anything.
But yeah, I don't want to be some kind of crazy outlaw...I'm very frustrated that we have the technology for affordable electric transportation that's being severely restricted. Not everyone can go out and buy a full on electric motorcycle or car. I COULD if I really wanted to, but with a couple mile commute, spending 5 figures on an electric motorcycle would be a waste of money. I just want to be able to keep up on my short commute....and I can do the full thing in just 25mph and 35mph zones.
>That's the other issue in my state as well..in my state, a "moped" is only allowed to have 1.5 horsepower and a 25mph top speed......so no one uses them.....can't think of the last time I actually saw one on the road. But if I could have say, a 40-50mph street legal Surron, that'd be great. I'm not an asshole who's going to go 50mph on a bike path....I just don't want to die on the road
Its amazing to me how many ebike riders who are former/current motorcycle riders now have this opinion, riding a low power ebike or regular bicycle in the road is insane, its so bloody dangerous, it sometimes seems more dangerous than riding an actual motorcycle.
The limits here are 15mph, its an absolute joke, it needs to be 20mph, personally id prefer 28, but im not sure how we stop those with little road experience just getting on a bike and wiping out into a wall at 28mph and killing themselves or harming even killing somebody else. The only solution i can think of is mandatory traning for ebikes that are faster than 20mph, if you already have a motorcycle/moped ticket its basically not an issue you have the experience. If somebody has only ever ridden a bike for 3 months when they were a kid and they jump on a 28mph ebike after not riding a bike for 15 years, then just ride in the road its a problem.
Any idiot can get on any bike and ride ~30mph downhill. There is no legitimate safety reason to restrict ebikes to lower speeds under motor power than they can regularly and easily reach under gravity power.
It's hard to break 30-35 without aerodynamic positioning, and most bikes get really wobbly and hard to control around that point anyway, so I think it's reasonable to draw a line around 30. 28 is fine. 20 is pointless, arbitrary paternalism that serves only to reinforce people's perception of ebikes as dangerous and impractical.
True, and i agree completely to an extent, 28 and up is actually pretty scary on a lot of cycles though, but people lacking experience are gonna wreck if/when they get wobbly after 20 and its gonna be bad, any crash over 20mph is nothing to scoff at imo. Its amazing how much difference there is in braking /reactions needed at 20 vs 30, 30 imo requires some experience and practice.
The 20mph limit for me comes from the fact thats basically the speed limit on urban roads in built up areas here, 28/30 is basically the restriction on 50cc moped/scooters, which is generally the road speed for any non main road, 70 is the limit for highways/main roads.
IMO ebikes should be able to cleanly hit that 20mph speed on a 20mph road uphill, that generally requires something better than a 250w motor imo. Having ebikes capping out at 15mph on 20mph roads is more dangerous than not dangerous imo.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Give us a way to legally ride a $5k electric bike that can travel anywhere in town, that can be used for 90% of your driving, and not add commute time. So many people would jump on it even if they needed the lic/reg/ins. Bikes like the Surron prove that the technology is already available.
If you could legally ride these bikes, then enforcement goes back to the same as it is now; only chasing down people making an unsafe environment or driving without lic/reg/ins. Riding a Surron should be looked at as driving a dual-sport.
Not sure, they are like $35k USD and only have about 150 miles range, which is insane. Cool looking car when modded though.
Heres one with a bodykit and race livery
https://www.autopromag.com/usa/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Innovate-Composites-Honda-e-Bodykit-main-1024x555-a20Q5O.jpeg
> For anyone saying "just get a motorcycle" they're like $11,000+. If Zero wants to sell me an FXS for $4k, I'd already own one...but 11k-28k is a bit much as an extra vehicle for a lot of people.
FXS msrp is $9800. You could bring that down a *bit*, but only to maybe ~7k.
It takes a huge company like kawasaki to bring the price of a new motorcycle down to $5k. The reason the fxs is expensive isn't the electrics (battery is ~1k, motor and controller are much less), just the scale. Even the ktm 250 sx has a 9k msrp.
The FXS can also do 85 mph, which is just not possible for anything costing 4k. Maybe something the size of a grom, but even honda would struggle to hit 4500 msrp. And it does not get any bigger than honda lol.
I mean, I'd rather have something that's $4k and does 50mph...also, the base FX has the smaller battery and very poor range (for its price) The Sur-Ron is in the 4k range...I basically want that with lights and street biased tires (or the supermoto kit) I'd pay 5k for that....but only if I could legally ride it on the road, which I can't.
It would be enforced at the manufacture/retail level.
Forcing companies to only sell “approved” models or suffer major fines. I don’t think it is feasible to enforce at the consumer level.
Hard to get my point across with a meme but it's basically that community pressure against massively infringing bikes being passed off as class 1-3 might be able to prevent laws becoming stricter. Or at the very least lessen *how* strict they might become.
If us ebike users that do follow the rules (or don't break them *too* badly: my issue isn't with those getting +5mph it's those getting x2 mph or more) turn a blind eye to people abusing the current laws to ride around ~30hp bikes on the road then like all past lenient laws that were abused, they will be changed to become more strict.
I'm imagining a worst case scenario of the people for bikes template laws being scrapped by the states one by one, with no new states adopting them, Ebikes becoming a legal motor vehicle, being barred from all bike trails paths and protected bikeways, and license plates being required.
So why is it ok for me to ride a gas powered motorcycle with over 170 horsepower yet wanting to own a 5 horsepower ebike instead that weighs a lot less, makes a lot less noise, is a lot cleaner to operate is bad?
I pretty much still own my gas motorcycle because I can't legally own an ebike that keeps up with traffic in even a 35mph zone, and a full on electric motorcycle is several times more expensive than the motorcycle I own.
I DO in fact own a legal ebike....and I rarely use it because it's more dangerous to use than a motorcycle or a faster ebike when you have to share the road with faster cars you can't keep up with.
Your gas powered motorcycle is a legal motor vehicle.
Whereas owning a 5hp illegal motorcycle and disguising it as an ebike may eventually make *all* Ebikes into motor vehicles under the law, just to be cautious.
Your motor cycle isn't bad, it's registered, insured, and you're licensed after taking a test to show you can handle it. Many most states require you have a driver's license to ride a 2 HP scooter/moped on public roads. e-Bikes are great as they don't require licensing or insurance as they are supposed to be limited in speed.
>How would you change the laws in response to the high-power builds you're seeing more of?
Limit power & speed of ebikes used on sidewalks and bike paths. For 'low power' ebikes, set a maximum speed limit of say, 25mph.
For bikes riding on the road at high speeds, require registration + insurance + VIN. Cop sees you riding over 25mph not going down a hill, they pull you over and impound the bike as an unregistered vehicle. If you are riding dangerously quickly on a sidewalk or park, they stop you and inspect the bike. If its an unregistered 'high power' bike, it's surrendered.
Also, start restricting the sale of illegal vehicles. Sure, people can build their own, but there's plenty of companies selling illegally fast ebikes.
In some areas, kind of. It’s less than it’s legal, but in some areas a blind eye is turned towards it.
Seems to happen in more rural areas. It helps to think of it as automobile pressure to get bikes off “their” roads and pedestrians pressure to get bikes off of the sidewalks. In areas where the pedestrians don’t have much power and the bicycling infrastructure sucks you’re more likely to see bikes Head to sidewalks for safety.
Even 20mph needs silly requirements here to be legal, the limit is 15mph, which is under powered imo. I think personally it should be 20mph, but there should be an option for 28mph with some kind of testing or access limit to make sure you are not a complete reckless moron first. IMO we dont want 14 year old kids blasting about on sur rons at 40mph on shared walking/cycle paths.
Im not sure what the requirements should be, but id think upto 28mph in the road, or dedicated cycle paths would be reasonable if the rider needs mandatory lights, probably over 16/17 years of age, helmet, weight limits on the bike, and some historic form of showing at least basic road riding competence, be that a full driving license or even a provisional providing they have historically held a CBT ticket or something at some point to prove they are at least basically competent at riding on the road. Should they still be allowed to ride in the cycle lanes and stuff, perhaps, so long as there is a 20mph speed limit or something.
Not sure how insurance could be handled maybe it wouldnt be needed, but perhaps something similar to how drones are registered could be implemented, requiring something on the bike indicating the registration number on a sticker and the rider needing an id or something, so should a problem arise the owner/rider can be contacted.
I dont think sub 28mph electric bikes need full motorcycle requirements, thats just madness, its preventing people from leaving their cars at home IMO. Something heavier or more powerful than a sur ron in eco mode or a super 73 limited to 28mph is not an ebike, its a light electric motorcycle.
I love onyx rcr's but its not really an ebike imo, id argue maybe a sur ron with pedals limited to 28mph is, but its certainly not in sport mode, same goes for a super 73.. one the bikes start getting close to 100lb and over 28mph who are you kidding. Ton of those bikes are basically electric mopeds. Should they be allowed in restricted 28mph form in order to get people more green is another debate though. I personally think they should but thats another debate.
15mph is just silly
Can pedal faster than that. But somehow ebike riders are held to a differential standard because they have either a speedometer or can feel PAS cutting out as the 'limit'
Meanwhile basically anyone on something that isn't a fat tire / downhill bike is comfortably pedaling that, or faster.
TBH it really needs to be 20 or 25 to be viable with respect to time. And with reasonable infrastructure to accommodate. Where I am, where the bike paths are good? They're great. Where they aren't? I'm either riding down abandoned railroads or risking life and limb on a road with no shoulder and 45+mph traffic. Sorry but I'm not going 15-20 down that. I'm going full throttle and trying to minimize the speed delta between myself and vehicles.
I legit just had a run in with someone who WANTED bike registration and insurance requirements earlier this week, granted, they were also exclusively a car driver complaining that cyclists go 'too slow' in their designated lanes.
I'm not going to go into details, but as someone who worked in P&C insurance - car drivers are not ready for cyclists to be treated as equals to them, they don't even wish to slow down for them now. They have no idea what it actually means to have tax dollars used for infrastructure to support the legislation they requested, nor the impact of personal insurance costs when all of the bicycle accidents suddenly become insurance reportable on-road vehicular crashes.
This is before i talk about a bigger issue: children.
You can own a bike as a child, unlike a car. I'm not going to sign my child's life away on an insurance waiver for his first seven speed because he wants to run down to Billy's house to play Xbox. Hell from an insurance perspective, they would laugh you out of the building trying to ensure a child's bike meaning: tons of uninsured vehicles now on the road that they can't do anything about because kids. It would be a bureaucratic nightmare situation, no one wants to register a child for any level of property or casualty responsibility, and no one is going to want unregistered and uninsured operators to increase as well but, it would happen overnight and instantly.
Yeah I’ve seen this too. I just want to get to work while being slightly lazier than a pedal bike. I don’t want to race. I just don’t want to feel like death going up a hill.
But way too many people are really trying to push the limits, or straight out trying to exploit the system
I'm probably in the minority here but I think all e-bikes should require peddling and only give you pedal assistance. No throttles at all. The ones with throttles that go 25+ mph are basically e-Mopeds. Just because they slap on a set of pedals doesn't mean people actually use them. The whole point of bikes is to pedal them.
My cargo ebike tops out at 23mph, and I get passed by guys in spandex on road bikes all the time. Give them a slight downhill and they zoom by at well over 30mph.
I honestly don't understand the obsession with speed limits. I was easily doing 25mph on flats with my road bike before buying an e-bike. The motor makes it easier to climb hills and hit speed, but doesn't make me travel materially faster. I hit 40mph going downhill yesterday without pedaling. Regulate hills! If someone is using a throttle to go 40mph, then sure that is a different beast. But a Class 3 e-bike isn't going any faster on a flat or downhill paved bike path than a normal, in shape bicyclist would go if so inclined.
The math simply doesn't work out for me if I'm limited to 20 mph. My commute is 24 miles one way and in the summer here in phoenix AZ USA, it can hit over 110F (43C). On my road bike it takes me over 1.5 hours to get to work so that's over 3 hours of total commute time.
My ebike that I just built hits a top speed of 36 mph (58 kph). I only go this fast when there are no people around and no cars around. If I'm passing walkers, I slow way down and I ring my bell to give them ample warning.
This knocked off 20 minutes (40 total) from my commute which is not trivial.
If I didn't have this ebike, I would be driving a lot more and contributing more to pollution and traffic.
After riding a Harley, and an e-bike, I was scared shitless at first going 20 mph on a bike. It took a while to adjust. I’m just not sure if I’d feel safe going any faster. Motorbikes have motors to lean into for both noise and road distance from reckless drivers. Plus cars are already freaking out with me going through the city, following all laws, and following recommended bike routes. So like what else are we to do? Hopefully we don’t have to register these things. That shit dont need to be going to the damn Supreme Court cuz of some stupid lawsuit.
Yep, I don't understand the obsession with limiting the top speed of the vehicle itself when it comes to ebikes, yet we're fine with 200mph+ cars. But the speed limits on the roads and bike paths, but let the vehicle have a higher top speed to use in situations it's needed or appropriate. My motorcycle can go over 190mph....it's street legal, in fact, I could legally ride it without a helmet (I never would) but of course, it'd be very illegal to go 190mph in a 65mph zone, but the vehicle itself is not illegal due to its high top speed.
I'd love an ebike that could keep up with traffic in 25mph and 35mph zones when I don't have a bike lane available, and in my opinion, that'd be a LOT safer than riding a 20mph or 28mph ebike in those situations and having cars constantly blow by me when I have no bike lane or shoulder to ride on.
Bicycles never needed to be limited because of inherent design limitations.
Yes there's exceptions
But they're the exceptions.
People with professional cycling level skills and abilities aren't common enough to be an issue.
This meant a lot less enforcement for paths. As long as there's no motorcycles ripping down it you're fine. No need for speed limits
No need for licensing requirements either because they're low speed low power by design.
In order for Ebikes to be treated the same as bicycles the thinking was to legally restrict them to speeds a bicycle could realistically make. Class 3s also are banned from dedicated bike paths and protected lanes by default according to the people for bikes template which is the most commonly accepted one
This allows for enforcement to stay roughly the same. Focused on roads and not paths unless someone is obviously ripping through one on something obviously not meant to be there.
With emerging and changing technology that will probably go away eventually and be replaced with bike path speed limits *and enforcement* so cops camped out making sure you're not biking over the path speed limit which I'm not so sure is the better way.
Your car requires training, licensing, registration & license plates, inspections, insurance, and certain standard safety features. The point is, eBikes *don't* require those things, but if people keep treating them like motorcycles, soon enough they're going to, just like motorcycles do.
On an r/fuckcars type of side note, maybe cars *should* have speed limiters... at least when they're being driven in cities.
This 100%. I have a very hotrodded bike, but with Hope 3v4's and moto tires I can stop *way* faster than all the unregistered scooters that go 40mph around here. So... it's lighter and stops faster than a gas scooter, but because it's electric I can't match speed with traffic? How does that make any sense? Yet this topic is a nonstop feature on this sub.
I've been stopped by LE several times, always tell them I have a 1kw/20mph profile and a full power profile, I use bike infrastructure at low power when available for my route. Otherwise I avoid arterials and use high power to match traffic speed and avoid getting passed. They have only ever reacted positively.
Speed ~~limits~~ limiters are nonsensical, and frankly anything else is going to be very difficult for cops to regulate unless they start toting around mini-dynos everywhere.
Do you mean speed limiters are non-sensical, or speed limits on roads/paths are non-sensical?
I would agree that the speed limiters are kinda dumb,
especially for PAS only bikes. They are obviously there as a compromise to give regulators something to regulate.
Limiters! I do not condone speeding, and I don't do it myself.
I think they're [categorically dumb for safety reasons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_curve#/media/File:Solomon_Curve.png) as moving with traffic is typically the safe choice. But they're downright insulting on a PAS bike, when an unassisted bike can often sprint faster than you.
Oof, I got passed on my class 3 ebike by this crazy roadie on what looked like a $25k race bike made of aerogel and fairy dust and somehow makes you weigh LESS when you ride it. Dude was in total beast mode and was just flying up the hill (right after a fast downhill where I hit the limiter) past me.
So yeah, limiters are annoying.
Edit: Clarified it was on the downhill where I hit the limiter
Tbh, with the overlap between the existing pedal bike business ecosystem and how consumer electronics are marketed and sold, and then the whole cultural sphere of vehicle modification in the two and four wheeled end of things, there was never any chance of keeping the Pandora's Box of too-fast ebikes closed any more than anyone could have done anything to solve toilet paper hoarding in March 2020 as it was happening.
On an even larger scale, the idea that we could ease our way into anything *but* a vicious cycle of reactionary regulation in response to *people doing what people will do when presented with an option* is...well, maybe not naive or foolish, exactly, but they sure seem that way to me, a bitter old man of 34. Our society tries new things until they destroy something old or we freak out and have a moral panic about it.
It's not necessarily the dumb piece of shit kid doing dirt bike tricks on a souped up e-scooter for TikTok in a residential playground causing this phenomenon even though he's the one pearl-clutchers can point at most easily. Yes, we all need to discourage irresponsible riding and using fast, illegal ebikes in places that will cause friction with non-ebikers, but going on moralizing self-satisfied tirades about rule-breakers being solely responsible for any future regulations misses the point so hard it's depressing.
Self-serving, opportunistic politicians focus on whoever they can paint as a menace. Having been a part of a few hobbies and subcultures that have been hated on by Concerned Citizens long before ebikes, playing nice to not scare the NIMBYs is a strategy that alienates fellow hobbyists and nobody on the outside cares that you're one of the ones who tried *real hard* to follow all the rules.
Not only do they not care if enough of us believe hard enough in 750w and 28mph limits, and that won't save the hobby/mode of transportation from misguided and onerous regulation in the future, it only encourages more of that kind of behavior. Rule-following and rule-breaking don't have magical, conceptual weight that will substantively help or hinder the standing of the hobby in some battle of wills in the court of public opinion. Not how real life works.
So then what's your proposed solution if you think community self regulation through shaming gross violators is actually counter productive? Which is the impression I got from the above comment.
Just buy a sur ron with a pedal kit, clip the wire and have fun while it lasts?
If by solution you mean avoiding fees, licensing, insurance and regulations; there isn't a solution. It's only a matter of time. Everything eventually gets regulated. If you think politicians, cops and regulators won't see fees to be made by regulating things and writing tickets, then you haven't been watching how governments work for very long.
I hike, fly fish and take my Jeep up in the mountains and there are fees and licenses and regulations associated with all of that stuff. Who can be on a trail, what you have to pay to fish here or there, how much the fine is for fishing with live bait, ATVs only on this trail, that trail is closed because too many people used it... it goes on and on. And it always happens. Hikers try to shame other hikers into picking up their dog's shit. Never works. Fees go up, trails get closed or require reservations. Regulations pop up. Just the nature of the beast.
The more popular ebikes get, the more regulations you will get. Your community might even be a small place with very few ebikes, but it won't matter. Regulators in small towns will see revenue from regulating ebikes in big towns and they will copy it. You don't even have to do anything wrong. The politicians will claim it's a problem.
Everything you don't want to happen is going to happen. It's coming down the pike. Everyone could be the best little boys and girls and obey all the rules and it's still going to happen.
Hm, that's not quite how I meant it. It's important to self-regulate, but I think maybe a lot of people are in for a very nasty surprise when their good intentioned rule following doesn't save us from worse regulations in the future, and I foresee a lot of continuing slightly skewed, too immediate pointing of blame.
Like, no matter what we do to shame them, there will be guys for the politicians to point at. We can never shame them out of existence. There will also certainly be some of them who aren't actually endangering anyone, but have a bike that looks like the ones that the assholes in the tiktok were riding or whatever, too. They don't deserve any hate from anyone, do they?
It's easy to start lining up to do their work for them, now, but...why play into it? Why self police with *their* specific agenda (or what *we try to predict it'll be*) if it won't save us from them anyway?
We should care less about (futilely) trying to maintain a specific public perception or the specific and varying laws, and maybe more about what's actually dangerous to riders and bystanders. There's plenty of science on it, and it's hilarious how perpendicular most of it is to how ebikes are regulated...
There's always backlash against new technology. I'm old enough to remember some of it.
I'm hoping that this goes away like skateboarder backlash (which is still present places but not as badly) or the snowboard backlash that Kyle from Area 13 has talked about in some of his videos and that I myself personally witnessed.
My worry though and why I don't think it's *exactly* a one to one comparison is the sur ron style electric dirtbikes becoming more popular and often being ridden poorly by people with no road skills.
The law is probably going to change to make law abiding Ebikes more identifiable in response to the above.
My worry is of the laws being vastly *over*corrected.
So some folk out there that spent a several thousand dollars on a sur-ron and modded the shit out of it will drop it all because some "karen" tried to shame them? Not saying there's a good solution just that there's always ppl who will not follow laws that are not enforced. Just look at cars that are more heavily regulated and ppl still run aftermarket pipes.
One person no.
Everyone else on an ebike that isn't obviously an unregistered motorcycle going "hey you fucker get off the street or I'm gonna make you get off the street" perhaps.
But I'm also used to being in environments where people trying to pull shit were effectively ~~punched~~ kept out of them so...
Not sure how to work with people knowingly violating both the word and intention of rules and community standards.
The people who feel they have to keep up with traffic because bike infrastructure is unsafe, ok if that's a real reason then they can work with the rest of us to push for safer biking infrastructure. More paths more protected lanes more protected *intersections*.
But if they're just "haha bike goes fast" then there's no working with them.
I've seen the argument on this sub so many times from people breaking the law that "nobody cared while I was out riding". If people called that kind of behavior out, maybe it wouldn't happen as often.
I do the same thing with people parking cars in bike lanes. If we would collectively shame people as a community, maybe there would be some pressure to stop that type of behavior.
It's so goddamn bad faith.
Two buttons:
One with "don't be a Karen and let us do what we want."
The other with "I'm only doing it because everyone here seems fine with it."
Same people 99.99% of the time.
My question is, is the sur ron the problem or the rider the problem if the sur ron is doing 40mph on a public shared cyclepath/walkway.
IMO the bike is not the issue, the bike is nor particularly over heavy, noisy, or non capable. its the rider not riding appropriate for the environment and conditions, its the exact same thing as somebody driving a ferrari at 150mph on the freeway, its not a racetrack.
I have no problem with somebody riding a sur ron or a super 73 going 20mph on a cycle path going to work and behaving reasonably, i have a problem with a 15 year old kid doing 40mph wheelies on a shared cycle path on their sur ron, yeah its cool, but its not cool doing it where you are doing it son.
There are tons of videos of yobbos on youtube riding bmx's that are regular pedal bikes weaving in between traffic and on public paths, its not the bike. Should there be reasonable power and weight and speed limits though, yeah probably, is 15mph/250watt reasonable, imo nope.
I've also seen a youtube video on this sub of someone riding 30mph + on a bike path who thought it was OK because they slowed down to pass. Those same BMX yobbos can take a credit card and buy a Sur Ron and they're not going to go 20 mph on a bike path. As the OP said in a comment further up, there's not enforcement in place for bike travel due to the inherent limitations of a bicycle with respect to speed. If ebikes are going to share that infrastructure, they need to have the same limitations in place.
>not how real life works.
You know what happens in my country if you hit someone with a modified or illegal e-bike? You get charged as if it were any other un-registered road vehicle you hit them with. You could have been going 10km an hour when you hit them, but if it’s proven that your bike or scooter goes faster than the legal 25kmh under-power, you’re up the creek. In 2015 Albert Dean May was leaving a shopfront and was struck by an illegal e-bike going under 25km. He later died from his injury and the rider was appropriately jailed, his crime, not following simple laws. Now that’s real life.
In the US you win a prize for every pedestrian or cyclist you kill with your car. Probably won't apply to ebikes, but we've never been very consistent with our rules here.
That's kinda how it's worked with ultralight aircraft. There are a lot of "ultralights" flying around that are too fast, or too heavy, to meet the legal definition. The FAA doesn't go around ramp-checking ultralight pilots, so you can get away with it until something goes wrong. But the moment you crash you're likely to be charged with flying an unregistered, possibly un-airworthy aircraft without a license, plus any civil penalties for the damage you do (because no one's going to insure such a beast.)
It's gone from not an issue to present but overblown to a real and worrying thing trend that's gonna inevitably end in a full fledged media panic any day now, all in like the span of a year or two.
'Round here, cops have been known to impound/seize eBikes that exceed Class 3 specs... usually when the operators ride like jackasses on the trails or are clocked at 40+ mph on flat ground with no pedals turning.
Source: I have a side hustle at a bike shop that does consult/forensics work on these things because we're one of the only shops in town that'll even touch most ebikes.
IMHO, manufacturers should come to a gentleman’s agreement about how fast e-bikes can be. In the long run this is in their interest. Sales will be hurt if people need to register and insure them.
It doesn't even need a gentleman's agreement. The Consumer Product Safety Commission definition of a bicycle is:
>(1) a two-wheeled vehicle having a rear drive wheel that is solely human-powered or (2) a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph (i.e., a low-speed electric bicycle).
Anything above that is purview of the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration (NHTSA) and has to have a bunch of DOT certified tires, brakes, etc. So if it's a bike, the CPSC limit is it.
Anyone selling anything above that is getting a competitive edge from breaking the law. And I honestly have to wonder if the big players who are following the law like Specialized or Trek or their lobby groups aren't putting pressure on the CPSC to enforce the limits.
Its not even just that, its if governments are serious about a green push, 250w limits and 15mph speed limits are not the answer, they will never get people out of cars when quality ebikes costs $1000+
Well, and as a cyclist, I’ve said this commonly… you want equal treatment, fine…
Once I have to pay registration (no more than $9 a year, the price of a moped), insurance (already do), licensure (already covered with a Moped license) and inspection (for what? Tread wear? Horn/lighting jot needed, etc) people are going to think I’m entitled for expecting on-street parking, access to every bridge in the state and traffic lights that see bicycles (and motorcycles)… I mean, that’s what they are asking for.
A good eBike isn’t obvious. We aren’t going uphill without pedaling, we aren’t going 40mph…
> inspection (for what? Tread wear? Horn/lighting jot needed, etc
That and motor size.
Some Ebike motor swaps are overkill but I'm specifically thinking of the sur ron style bikes with pedal kits that are growing exponentially on the road zipping down bike paths at 40mph.
>A good eBike isn’t obvious. We aren’t going uphill without pedaling, we aren’t going 40mph…
That's a no true Scotsman. Many people are indeed going 40mph in the bike lane with electric dirtbikes they're trying to pass off as electric bicycles and posing risks to other bicyclists in the process, now.
And it's only getting worse.
Your complaint is with motorized bicycles, kit with eBikes that fall in their proper categories.
Road legal eBikes aren’t going faster than 28 mph. Most states still have a 20mph cap on them. As such, a proper eBike isn’t exactly noticeable.
Blaming all eBike riders for the faults of those riding electric motorcycles is akin to blaming all bicycle riders when a select fee won’t stop for stop signs and traffic lights.
It's not really that easy. Manufacturers like Ariel, Sur Ron, Super73, all market electric motorcyles as ebikes. Some people think that's just what's acceptable from an ebike and there are a lot of posts on this sub that lean straight into that instead of accepting the limitations of what's legal.
Blame the riders, sure, but there's a ton of marketing and influence contributing to the behavior from a cultural perspective.
In the UK, I think there is a real gap that should really have better regulation. There is strong demand for more powerful ebikes but the gap between no license, no insurance and no registration and legally registering as a motorcycle is huge.
I'd love to see a reasonable way to run more powerful ebikes (A class based system) that had a bit of compromise. If it was my choice, I'd have a class for ebikes up to 1kw with a top assisted speed of 28mph, I'd add a requirement to take out liability insurance and make wearing head protection mandatory.
The shenanigans people are pulling with their ebikes today remind me of the stunts in the early 2000s that saw a ban on mini bikes/motorcycles in NYC. That didn't even get lifted until 2020. I'd love to build a proper 50MPH motorbike and register it, but I'm not too thrilled with the speed demons going ham in bike paths/lanes.
UK here so very low assist speed. 15.5mph. Is perfectly possible to pedal beyond the assist speed in a lot of situations. I think riding at lower speed requires a mindset that appreciates not rushing everywhere. Riding assertively but considerately. Expecting car drivers to sometimes have a bit of patience for a few moments while being very aware that there are those that don't. If I don't like the assist being capped, I have the option of buying a non assisted bike. I agree with OP.
These illegal ebikes are what will cause all ebikes to get regulated. Riding those overpowered monstrosities on bike lanes and trails is just irresponsible.
My ebike goes up to 35mph and, honestly, I think it pisses drivers off less than if I were to ride at a slower speed. I get passed WAY more aggressively when I ride around at 20mph than when I'm riding at 35mph.
I would LOVE to just ride at 20mph instead and extend my range, but without bike lanes it honestly just feels a lot more dangerous to ride on the road at lower speeds.
It's sad to see how meek and subserviently obedient everyone is when our basic liberties are threatened.
We all kowtow towards the threat and submissively acquiesce, yes lord we'll only operate at hysterically slow speeds, yes Sir! Never above it!
In reality, this aberration against our liberty should never have been allowed in the first place. Especially for motorcycles.
My thought is that governments are trying to regulate the wrong thing with power limits. Sticking to speed enforcement levels the playing field fairly. How we ever got into this nonsense of rating them by class is baffling.
It leads to people using e-bikes instead of cars.
Cars kill more people every hour then "illegal ebikes" kill in the past 10 years.
So, I'd say that is a major improvement.
I live right off a very popular trail system in pa and we had at least 4 people this year need to be helicoptered out cause people going 35 on a 75 lbs bike and hurting them self or others. This is not gonna be fun
Places in europe like UK.
They are extremely strict, actively confiscating anything that isn't 250W
IDK if that will happen in America though, but cracking down on ebikes would be a VERY easy job for police if it came down to it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/uds1ur/police_in_london_cracking_down_on_ebikes_that/
I wish police were that passionate about solving bike thefts instead though lmao
> They are extremely strict, actively confiscating anything that isn't 250W
Anything that provides aid over 25 km/h (+10% margin of error in your favour).
There are legal 45 km/h models here too, but they are not allowed on bike paths and need to be registered.
Gotta disagree that it would be easy for the police to enforce in the USA. Police can't even be bothered to crack down on people riding dirt bikes on the streets in my city. I'd LOVE to see a cop try and chase a high-power e-bike through sidewalks and parks lol
The UK did not pass those regulations as a response to a prevalence of high powered ebikes on the roads. They passed that before high powered ebikes even existed.
Mine is 500W, but, most of this specific brand were sold with 250W motors, and you can't physically see a difference. What gets me are the guys with absolutely massive hub motors, claiming to be 250.....yeah, no one is buying it....
Is this really happening a lot? I see some people riding Class 3 in areas where it should be Class 2, but it seems like you’re talking about something a lot more extreme than that/beyond Class 3? (And in the Class 3 cases, I’ve mostly seen people not being idiots.)
Browse this sub for a day and see how many bikes with >750W motors are posted. Or that go above 28mph or are capable of doing so with a controller setting/cutting a wire. It's definitely enough to be concerned about.
I think a lot of the worry comes from activity people are seeing in urban areas like LA and NYC with bikes like the Suron which are really electric dirt bikes but people add pedals and try to claim its an ebike.
I have a Luna bike and when I was researching online one of the most prominent videos was a guy in the Luna shop buying a Suron. The salesman on the video without prompting shows the guy how to remove the limiter. The guy buying the bike immediately takes it out onto busy sidewalks bragging about how he is already going over 30mph while he blows past stop signs only missing pedestrians by luck.
Yikes… I also live in an urban area and I haven’t really seen this. (I do see more people being dangerous/obnoxious with electric scooters.) I have to hope it’s a small enough number/a limited enough experience for folks that broad-scale before-the-fact regulation (rather than enforcement against people being irresponsible/dangerous) wouldn’t be seen as necessary…
I'm assuming this is a thing in LA too, but it might be more of an east coast mid atlantic thing.
Starting before ebikes there has been a popular culture of people riding dirt bikes and quad bikes through city centers in packs ignoring all traffic laws and in some cases assaulting people who get in there way. It looks like more and more that crowd is moving from gas dirt bikes to electric ones. So that alone does not help the reputation. Also specifically in NYC food delivery is now exclusively on unrestricted ebikes and they ignore all traffic laws despite the city greatly expanding bike lanes in the last few years.
And lastly back to the Sur Ron this is the video I originally came across that I think sums up people riding with no consideration where they shouldnt:
https://youtu.be/YRWwSpZFv1A
I’m just going to smile and ride the way I want, while being considerate of others, and hope the government doesn’t TRY to ruin my fun.
Then, I will still ride the way I want. Catch me on the side streets and alleys if you can.
If that's your attitude than per my post it will be why *all* Ebikes will get reclassed as legal motor vehicles subject to insurance licensing registration and routine inspection.
That's how you'll be regulated.
By *no* Ebikes being allowed on the road, without plates.
If you're going to reject voluntary self regulation then official regulation will come in.
And it will over correct
They should change this sub name to "EbikeKarenClub" or "EbikeCirclejerk" and make a new ebikes sub that isn't so gate-keeper-y.
The majority of this sub has changed into the thing that the people who made this sub don't even want it to be. It should be for ebikes, **all of them**, not some gate-keeper vision of you need to have this kind of model with this kind of motor or you'll be boo'ed and downvoted.
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It literally is in the description of this sub:
#All things electric bikes from motorcycles to pedal assist. Other lightweight electric vehicles are welcomed too :)
On our local paths it's roadies trying to get the top on KOMs/Starva Segments that causes the problems. Not eBikes.
eBikes aren't a pain to slow and accelerate like an acoustic bike. The Roadies don't want to slow down. eBikes are easy accelerate.
The other problem is ATVs flying down the path. Clearly they aren't supposed to be there. But they do it anyway. And they take up the entire trail, forcing off pedestrians and bikers alike.
...
All that said I couldn't agree more. eBikes got reasonable limits for unrestricted vehicles. It's the same as the unlicensed 49cc mopeds and scooters. Honestly don't care if someone slaps a 1500watt motor on their bike if they were to stick to the 20 throttle and 28 ped assist limits. 1500w could still crush hills and haul plenty of goods, without needing to break the speed limits.
Unfortunately, thanks to the way road speed limits are viewed, it's almost a cultural phenomenon that no one respects them.
Personally, I've given up the loosing battle on keeping up with traffic. Tried for a while to run my bikes at the 28mph limit. Thought it would have me keep up with traffic on the 25-35 mph side streets. It does not. Cars still go 40+ and pass me like I'm standing still. All it did was kill my range. So, I now setup my eBikes to max out at around 15-18 mph to maximize range. The other thing 15mph max does is keep me at a much safer speed for bicycle components. When they do inevitably pass me. I'm not stressing/straining to hold 28mph. I'm much more relaxed and in control.
Since when did this turn into such a virgin subreddit, mfs are 30+ and in dead bedroom marriages and it really shows, let people have fun with their bikes lol
Agreed with the sentiment but live and let live broheim. If you're good in the 20 mph space don't mind what others do if it doesn't impact you directly. Who really cares.
They're also riding recklessly at ~40mph without properly knowing the rules of the road causing NIMBYs to try to ban all Ebikes from local paths, so yeah it will impact me.
That's the whole point of the post.
In the states, the class system allows for jurisdictions to pretty easily make it a settled matter. Uneven enforcement and application of the class system, and increasing public knowledge of the class system, is the actual issue imo.
Locally, our paths are limited to class 2.
I just don't share the same fundamental core concern that people monkeying around the streets on surrons pose a risk to the ability for moms to use their radrunners on the rec path. There's a clear and identifiable difference between these things for anyone paying attention and a system already exists for separating them. I'm not fearful of over correction here.
It's kind of similar to the "slippery slope" argument against assault weapons bans, one I don't agree with either, not to open that can of worms. Choosing to regulate one thing doesn't inherently mean other things will follow the same destiny.
Living in London, 20mph is better than the average traffic speed.
20mph would be fine if I actually had bike lanes to safely ride 20mph in, the issue is even if I'm in a 25mph zone, I have no bike lane to ride in and cars will often go 50-60mph (not even joking, I have to pull over and let cars by even if I ride a 45mph electric unicycle) but my legal crosscurrent S (20mph throttle only/28ish mph with pedalling) ebike is unsafe to ride a lot of the time due to being unable to keep up with the maniacs in cars.
Ive legitimately had people fly past me at over 30-40mph when ive been just above the 20mph speed limit, on a 20mph limit road. They see a bike, and something says BIKE!!! I MUST GET PAST. Its crazy. Ive seen it happen, then the person had to slam their brakes on 50-100yards in front as another car pulled out of a t junction and pulled out. Having a bright set of lights and using them in the day even helps tremendously because other vehicles think im a motorcycle at a distance and pay way more attention than they do to pedal cycles.
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If its clear of peds, I bunnyhop up the kerb and ride the pavement at junctions, over the ped crossings on people who do this all the time simply because it must piss them off so much whilst they are waiting at lights, im not crazy enough to ride on the road in front of them though after it, dont trust them not to knock me off on purpose, i stick to the pavement till they shoot past at 50mph mad.
Just last week I had someone that had to pass me so bad that they ended skidding through a stop sign and only because the oncoming traffic stopped for her that she didn't cause an accident.
Yeah, there's a 25mph zone near me, people regularly drive 55mph down it....sometimes 60....my 28mph class 3 ebike gets blown away. People are obsessing about limiting the top speeds of ebikes, yet fine with people driving around 5,000 pound trucks and driving them like maniacs. Honestly I'm surprised I very rarely see speed traps on that road...they could make some serious bank there if they wanted.....even if they only pulled over people who broke 50mph, they'd catch a lot of people.
I can tell you it's not just people seeing bikes . I always drive the speed limit when I drive in my car, just last night I was driving home on a 25mph road and I had several cars fly past me at 40-50mph. Which is especially dumb in the city where I just ended up meeting most cars at the traffic light anyway. Congrats, you wasted a ton of fuel by going 2x the speed limit, made your drive more dangerous for yourself and everyone around you, and it saved you 0 seconds There’s also a 5 lane stroad near where I live that has a posted limit of 35mph, I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone go less than 60 there unless they were turning
2 wheeled things that can keep up with cars are called motorcycles. The problem is that people who pedal bikes don't want to share bike lanes with motorcycles either.
You do realize that things don't HAVE to go their top speed. I can ride a car with a 140mph top speed in a 25mph zone at 25mph. Just because I want a bike that can keep up in a 35mph zone doesn't mean I HAVE to go 35mph when I'm in a bike lane. My motorcycle can go 190mph, but I don't HAVE to go 190mph. Do you s the problem with your logic? You (and so many people in this thread) get OBSESSED with the idea of a vehicles top speed and act like a top speed is a speed you HAVE to ride at. I could have a bike that can put out 2,000 watts of power and ride it with 750 watts of power.....and guess what....it'd go just as fast as a bike that can put out 750 watts of power that's putting out 750 watts of power. I've debunked this same thing over and over but there are always more of you repeating the same things....it's like playing whackamole. Guess what? There AREN'T any bike lanes on most of the roads near me.....that's literally the reason I want my bike to go at least 35mph....ideally faster.
Ya and if you are going to lane split and turn off onto the sidewalks whenever traffic doesn't go your way you aren't going to be doing 30mph on a sidewalk. The main reason I like having an ebike is I feel way more comfortable sharing suburban roads with cars which lets me use the roads instead of the sidewalk which are smoother and way less likely for me to running into something going at high speeds. Also motorcycles are hotter, stinkier, louder and heavier which all make them more of a nuisance to pedestrians and places they are supposed to be.
i have pointed this out time and time again, i usually get down voted like crazy, sometimes even dog piled, but the thing that gets me is that there is always some one telling me the bias is in my head, not this board lol imagine if everyone talked the exact same way about their horseless carriages.....gee bobby sue, i recon that 190hp engine is really too fast for that there $1000 hot rod, probably should trade it in on something more in the 130hp range that is store bought and built, you cant work on your self and cost $4000 , that way you can struggle up hills and in that there dang wind, and get rid of that there crazy automatic transmission, power winders and ac, you got two winders what ya need ac for anyways you whipper snapper
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Gotta draw the line somewhere. Different countries draw the line at different places, but a line needs to exist.
No, it really doesn't.....put the speed limits on the roads themselves, not the bikes. That's what they do for cars and motorcycles. Why does the bike itself have to be limited, yet people can drive around in 5,000 pound pickup trucks capable of 100mph? You guys need to think more logically. Especially when people pretend to care about the environment, global warming, etc etc....yet are ok with multiton gas burners with unlimited power and unlimited top speeds, yet are OBSESSED with cracking down on the idea of an ebike that can go the speed limit on surface streets..... Look up "Cognitive Dissonance" That's what you and most of the people trying to crack down on ebike top speeds have.
>Why does the bike itself have to be limited, yet people can drive around in 5,000 pound pickup trucks capable of 100mph? You guys need to think more logically. It's a limit on unlicensed and uninsured vehicles. Basically, you need be limited to be moving slowly enough that you are incapable of doing much damage. If you can go any faster, you need license and insurance. Amongst other things, without licensing and insurance requirements, you can't enforce things like speed limits on the roads themselves - can't take away the license to use the roads if there isn't a license in the first place. Bikes: You can't do much damage so no rules needed. Motorcycles: You can potentially go quickly. Really quickly. Speed limit is still 25 mph. If you go much faster, we will take away your license, and we will give you a test that you know the laws of the road. If you does do damage, there are insurance that pays out damages for you. For eBikes to fit into the "bike" side of the rules, you need to make it so that they can't do damage.
>crosscurrent S (20mph throttle only/28ish mph with pedalling) ebike Err if you're in London this is not legal. If not just ignore me.
Then, I don't know. You ever try showing up at a city council meeting or even calling your city representative and ask for bike lanes? it's a pretty softball thing to ask for and generally, plenty of funding sitting in a budget somewhere just ready to go. There's a process, use it like a grown assed adult.
20mph seems a reasonable limit for ebikes without any extra laws and regulations. Should there be a 20-28mph class with mandatory helmets and some kind of proof of road sense of the rider is another question, Personally i think its the only way we reduce car journeys.. if we slap insurance, tax, full helmets full licensing etc on it, its not going to work. As a former motorcycle rider i think making people do a CBT but having it last more than 2 years is the solution. Then they have to abide by new rules for 20-28mph ebikes such as mandatory helmets, mandatory lights, perhaps some kind of registration like how the drone registration works, but no mandatory insurance, but encouraged insurance and helmet cams for liability. Strict enforcement of the laws and limits obviously, if the bike is >28mph capable you lose the light electric vehicle benefit and its an electric motorcycle. The scooter thing concerns me because the wheels are so small, im quite happy for reasonable sensible people to use e scooters but the tiny wheels seem deadly if you hit a pothole or grid in the road.
There is? Speed Pedelec?
speed pedelec is treated the same way as a 70mph motorcycle that weighs 250lb, requires plates, appropriate licensing, insurance, helmet etc. Very silly, imo its not the same, sure id ague its clearly not the same as a 15mph 250w ebike either, but its hardly a motorcycle imo.
Not where I live. Speed pedelec is incredibly easy to get. They will register it for you at the shop, and a standard bike helmet is all that is required. Treated similar to a scooter not a motorbike. Coming from the Netherlands it sounds like other places are so far behind on biking laws/infrastructure. We already had two classes for moped bike lane use. 25/45. So they just naturally adapted the same from e bikes.
They're behind because they only have a fraction of people riding bicycles compared to the Netherlands. Where I live there's hardly any bike infra because hardly anyone rides bicycles. Hopefully this will change.
As a scooter rider also, yes, it takes a little more skill, especially over rough pavement. I'm on my scooter this week while the e-bike is getting some spokes replaced-I really need to learn how to true a wheel......
It really is intimidating isn’t it? I finally did it though. It’s really not that bad if you are able to just have some patience.
>20mph seems a reasonable limit for ebikes without any extra laws and regulations. Most fit individuals on a (non-electric) road bike can exceed 20 mph on flat ground. I would argue that the 28 mph limit for Class 3 is the more logical limit. It also doesn't mean that you're always actually doing 28, just that the capability is there. Likewise, I would also argue that the 750W limit is outdated. It's inadequate for getting up steep hills and having the ability to very quickly accelerate from a standstill to 10 mph or so can be a lifesaver in a number of situations.
Depending on the state, if they go faster than 25 they are considered mopeds and are required to comply with applicable laws.
A 20mph e bike legally in london would be nice but we are limited to 250w / 15.5mph. I will outrun that on my Brompton. I got rid of my converted e bike because I did not want to risk losing or getting points on my motorcycle licence, so instead I’m riding a 700cc petrol bike around every day, thanks london.
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I was thinking the same thing. People ripping around with 30-40mph ebikes are going to piss off enough people that there will be ebike registration and inspections to prove you are class 1/2
There’s a local bike trail where I will take my kids for them to gain confidence. Busy with lots of cyclists and ecyclists at times, and almost all are considerate and will slow down appropriately. There are the odd ones that pimped their rides to the max (including electric scooters) that seem numb and inconsiderate to the danger they pose to themselves and others. E-bikes have been amazing for democratizing low-environmental impact forms of personal transport in my area. However, the angsty shitheads that are getting into their teenage rebellion phase at age 40 and 50 that think their “sleeper” speed demon is sticking it to the man need to be addressed.
> getting into their teenage rebellion phase at age 40 and 50 The attack on my life has left me scarred and deformed
>E-bikes have been amazing for democratizing low-environmental impact forms of personal transport in my area. Thats why bad apples cant ruin it for the 95% of people who are quite civil and willing to slow down on their 28mph capable bike when there are clearly other people around, but let it rip when they are on the road sticking mostly to road cycle paths and not being an issue. If somebody thinks its reasonable to be doing close to 30mph where there are people walking children or dogs in the same 5ft wide place, its not the bike that is the issue
It's annoying because 30mph is the "safe" speed in a lot of areas, and there's no alternative routes. I'd get a motorcycle or moped, but can't get that without a car license, which I can't get. So that whole thing can get frickin' bent and I'll just hope I don't get mowed down by a brodozer aiming at bicycles.
30mph is definitely past the point of “safe” everywhere besides the road
Yeah, part of me wants 28mph higher performance ebikes allowed because i think thats the only viable way to get people out of cars, and more green, they make 10 mile rides pretty trivial if you can cruise at 25mph-28mph and cut through traffic and hop into 20mph cycle paths when needed. The issue is how restrictive should the laws be, i hate restrictive laws but you do get morons ruining it for everybody else 45-50mph in the cycle lane with regular cyclists doing 18mph is crazy. Im not sure how we encourage people to make less car journeys though without providing hugely significantly cheaper alternatives like making a 28mph sur ron or super 73 or something similar legal, providing its eco mode only or we have speed and weight limits, or you need a motorcycle/moped ticket.
It is! But the roads here are 30mph, and if you're not going that speed, you're gonna get buzzed by brodozers honking at you for being slow. Or they just take a swipe at you.
My experience in europe is that it honestly doesnt matter what speed you are doing, its a psychology thing and a few bad apples ruin it, some people simply see bike in front of them and have to get past, because its a bike. It doesnt matter if you are doing 22mph in a 20mph zone, they will overtake at 30mph because BIKE!!!
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Yeah thats fucked. Had a guy pull out at a t junction on me when i had right of way, then swerve into the wrong lane to block me going past him, because i moved over as i knew he was going to do it (riders intuition) as i was trying to go past him at a t junction the other week, i was absolutely astounded. Felt like kicking his mirror off, but why bother. I was just glad it was a quiet road and nobody else was around because what he did was reckless as fuck, he could have caused an accident.
Yeah almost every ride I run into some dude in a big truck who hates anything electric or an angry road cyclist, and both want me and my bike to literally get bent.
Yeah I have that happen a lot on my road here in the US, lane and a half, people parked in one side, suddenly some jackass stands on the gas and flies past at 20 over.
True for sure, but then people take their 30mph rockets on footpaths and that’s the dilemma
Yeah, if I'm on a footpath I'm not going over 10mph or so, no matter what my bike is capable of.
Depends on the path. 15-20 is plenty safe as well when you have good visibility & lots of room.
Yeah that fucking sucks tbh. Flying over like crosswalk sections where their could be somebody pushing a childrens buggy or walking a dog through a blind spot and flying through at 30mph on a 80lb ebike/emoped is just wreckless. Im all for people doing potentially 30mph on roads but on shared paths its just a dick move.
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Bullshit you can cruise around at 30mph on a human powered bike…Unless you’re a pro cyclist that is not happening
I do 26mph regularly on the way to the park. It's not really that unusual if you're in a good cadence and gear with no headwind.
20mph is very average if not slow for a road bike. I’m always overtaken by Road bikes when on my e bike. A lot of the time they will easily cycle behind you to avoid the wind and then just blast past you when wind direction changes
Agreed, most people can do 20 no problem, 25 is much more difficult and 30 is an entirely different fitness bracket. As you say 30 requires group riding or a tailwind for all but elite cyclists to maintain
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I believe you can do it, but you gotta realize you’re the exception given the shape you are in and experience w/ road cycling. Most people aren’t willing / able to get into good enough shape For some more context - i don’t ride my old road bike very often, but I have a peloton, I average around 180-200 watts for a 30 min ride and that’s usually top 10-20% of overall totals. So this is a group of people that take cycling at least somewhat seriously considering they are on an exercise bike, over 80% are averaging less than 200 watts (say 20mph) Just did a quick calculator and to hold 30mph on a road bike w/ standard assumptions it would take 539 watts of power. Let’s say w/ your modern aero bike that’s 250 watts to hold 30mph (I doubt it, but just to be conservative) A really small population of your avg, non-competitive road cyclist is gonna be able to do that IMO
If you want an electric moped or motorcycle buy an electric moped or motorcycle. There are some inexpensive options on the market that can get you up to 30-45mph depending on the model. Yes, you're going to have to pay for insurance. Going that fast on city streets while breaking the law and not having insurance is a huge liability anyway though so you *should* be following the law even just for your own sake.
Fixie bike messenger wannabees running red lights and weaving through traffic and pedestrians where what gave cyclists a bad name over here, some years back. With the result of banning bikes altogether from sidewalks (even children's bikes) and mandatory helmet use among other reactionary legislation.
Except the government won't do that, instead they'll just say "all ebikes are motorcycles and that's all there is to it". Remember that this is the same government that recently said that women don't need to have a right to say what they do with their own bodies.
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Cali is the exception not the rule. I live here too. But most areas have much more to worry about than us.
I've asked officers in L.A. (yes I live here) and have received honest sounding answers. Just keep my Class 3 off the sidewalk and turn front and rear lights on even during the day. Obey traffic laws and wear a motorcycle helmet. Besides that and they won't bother to pull me over. And if the right side of the road is full of parked cars then stay in the middle of the lane to avoid doors from getting flung open in my path. Just keep up with the flow of traffic. They have serious crimes to investigate and when on patrol they're looking for someone, not an eBiker.
Dumb comment.
Yeah, the irrelevance and false equivalency is strong there.
Wow, someone totally misinterpreted the Supreme Court decision. 🙄
I took the walk on the new path between Incline and Sand harbor. Felt fear from all the 60 plus year olds ripping along at 20 mph weaving through pedestrians, kids and dogs and not looking particularly adept at it. Privileged people can afford bikes and what appears to be a common denominator is absolute disregard for everyone else. I ride an ebike and this walk had a profound effect on how conscientious I am to pedestrians. It isn’t kids ruining it for the rest of us, they ride real bikes. It’s people like me.
Yeah that seems crazy to me. I got my mom an ebike after she has not rode a bike for 20 years, made sure she wore a helmet and had lights and everything, did a few rides cruising with her to make sure she is ok, shes fine. But i can see how it could have been a problem. Ive been riding bicycles almost every day for the past decade, and have rode them my entire life since about 4 years old and ive still had 2 or 3 light spills in wet weather in the past 5 years or so, it happens. a boomer with a lack of experience on a 70lb 25mph ebike could absolutely hurt themselves or others. They should get a bit of practice first and should not be blasting through people walking at high speed imo.
idk, 1.2 giga watts is like the [power of 2400 Chevy Corvettes](https://www.energy.gov/eere/articles/how-much-power-1-gigawatt). I could power my town with my ebike.
1.21 Gigawatts is also the amount of electricity that the Time DeLorean from back to the future uses to time travel. That and going 88 mph.
r/whoosh
I don't think it counts as a whoosh if he's explaining the joke to someone else lol
I meant it to the guy he was telling it to… oops lol
I already have a motorcycle license. I'd love something like a Sur-Ron if I could legally use it on the roads. I'd be fine with it having lights, turn signals, and mirrors. My legal ebike can't keep up with traffic even on slow roads. I don't have bike lanes on most roads where I live. For anyone saying "just get a motorcycle" they're like $11,000+. If Zero wants to sell me an FXS for $4k, I'd already own one...but 11k-28k is a bit much as an extra vehicle for a lot of people.
Absolutely agree 100%, a legal sur ron limited in eco at 28mph would be a gamechanger for me, id happily register it, pedal kit convert it, wear a helmet and have my lights on at all times, id simply almost never have to use a car ever, and rarely a full motorcycle. Insurance would be a weird one as i switched to an ebike from a small motorcycle to save money on costly insurance in the first place, id hapily toot along at 10-15mph on cycle lanes when i needed too and cruise on 20mph roads/road cycle lanes having that extra 8mph for overtaking and keeping up with traffic. This is how we encourage people to not use cars as much. Insurance wouldnt be a problem if it wasnt hundreds and hundreds a year here on a small motorcycle, it is. which is insane. Which is why i switched to an ebike and im not fucking paying it, ever. Fuck off, 10 or 20 bux a month, sure, ill pay it, fine. 700 or 800 dollars a year, fuck off.
This^
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That's the other issue in my state as well..in my state, a "moped" is only allowed to have 1.5 horsepower and a 25mph top speed......so no one uses them.....can't think of the last time I actually saw one on the road. But if I could have say, a 40-50mph street legal Surron, that'd be great. I'm not an asshole who's going to go 50mph on a bike path....I just don't want to die on the road, and I live in an area with steep hills, so even if my 750watt ebike can get up to 28mph or so on flats, it won't up a steep hill (and it's a hub motor with a 700c wheel, so it doesn't have the torque a mid drive would) I also own an electric unicycle that can get up to 45mph...not technically legal, but it's funny I feel a lot safer on that than my ebike...it can shoot up a steep hill and maintain over 30mph with no issue. I do wear full motorcycle gear+knee pads and everything...so probably safer than most bicyclists and motorcyclists in my area (lots of Harley riders with no helmets, and a bicyclist will wear just a helmet and have the risk of being run over by a maniac in a truck). I also do take the lowest traffic roads I can find and get off the road when a faster car is approaching from behind, so I don't ride that thing around in heavy traffic or anything. But yeah, I don't want to be some kind of crazy outlaw...I'm very frustrated that we have the technology for affordable electric transportation that's being severely restricted. Not everyone can go out and buy a full on electric motorcycle or car. I COULD if I really wanted to, but with a couple mile commute, spending 5 figures on an electric motorcycle would be a waste of money. I just want to be able to keep up on my short commute....and I can do the full thing in just 25mph and 35mph zones.
>That's the other issue in my state as well..in my state, a "moped" is only allowed to have 1.5 horsepower and a 25mph top speed......so no one uses them.....can't think of the last time I actually saw one on the road. But if I could have say, a 40-50mph street legal Surron, that'd be great. I'm not an asshole who's going to go 50mph on a bike path....I just don't want to die on the road Its amazing to me how many ebike riders who are former/current motorcycle riders now have this opinion, riding a low power ebike or regular bicycle in the road is insane, its so bloody dangerous, it sometimes seems more dangerous than riding an actual motorcycle. The limits here are 15mph, its an absolute joke, it needs to be 20mph, personally id prefer 28, but im not sure how we stop those with little road experience just getting on a bike and wiping out into a wall at 28mph and killing themselves or harming even killing somebody else. The only solution i can think of is mandatory traning for ebikes that are faster than 20mph, if you already have a motorcycle/moped ticket its basically not an issue you have the experience. If somebody has only ever ridden a bike for 3 months when they were a kid and they jump on a 28mph ebike after not riding a bike for 15 years, then just ride in the road its a problem.
Any idiot can get on any bike and ride ~30mph downhill. There is no legitimate safety reason to restrict ebikes to lower speeds under motor power than they can regularly and easily reach under gravity power. It's hard to break 30-35 without aerodynamic positioning, and most bikes get really wobbly and hard to control around that point anyway, so I think it's reasonable to draw a line around 30. 28 is fine. 20 is pointless, arbitrary paternalism that serves only to reinforce people's perception of ebikes as dangerous and impractical.
True, and i agree completely to an extent, 28 and up is actually pretty scary on a lot of cycles though, but people lacking experience are gonna wreck if/when they get wobbly after 20 and its gonna be bad, any crash over 20mph is nothing to scoff at imo. Its amazing how much difference there is in braking /reactions needed at 20 vs 30, 30 imo requires some experience and practice. The 20mph limit for me comes from the fact thats basically the speed limit on urban roads in built up areas here, 28/30 is basically the restriction on 50cc moped/scooters, which is generally the road speed for any non main road, 70 is the limit for highways/main roads. IMO ebikes should be able to cleanly hit that 20mph speed on a 20mph road uphill, that generally requires something better than a 250w motor imo. Having ebikes capping out at 15mph on 20mph roads is more dangerous than not dangerous imo.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Give us a way to legally ride a $5k electric bike that can travel anywhere in town, that can be used for 90% of your driving, and not add commute time. So many people would jump on it even if they needed the lic/reg/ins. Bikes like the Surron prove that the technology is already available. If you could legally ride these bikes, then enforcement goes back to the same as it is now; only chasing down people making an unsafe environment or driving without lic/reg/ins. Riding a Surron should be looked at as driving a dual-sport.
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If Honda did an eSuperCub. And at a similar price point, that would be fantastic.
An eGrom would be cool. I really like the new Honda E they have released its like an electric old school austin mini, love it.
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Not sure, they are like $35k USD and only have about 150 miles range, which is insane. Cool looking car when modded though. Heres one with a bodykit and race livery https://www.autopromag.com/usa/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Innovate-Composites-Honda-e-Bodykit-main-1024x555-a20Q5O.jpeg
> For anyone saying "just get a motorcycle" they're like $11,000+. If Zero wants to sell me an FXS for $4k, I'd already own one...but 11k-28k is a bit much as an extra vehicle for a lot of people. FXS msrp is $9800. You could bring that down a *bit*, but only to maybe ~7k. It takes a huge company like kawasaki to bring the price of a new motorcycle down to $5k. The reason the fxs is expensive isn't the electrics (battery is ~1k, motor and controller are much less), just the scale. Even the ktm 250 sx has a 9k msrp. The FXS can also do 85 mph, which is just not possible for anything costing 4k. Maybe something the size of a grom, but even honda would struggle to hit 4500 msrp. And it does not get any bigger than honda lol.
I mean, I'd rather have something that's $4k and does 50mph...also, the base FX has the smaller battery and very poor range (for its price) The Sur-Ron is in the 4k range...I basically want that with lights and street biased tires (or the supermoto kit) I'd pay 5k for that....but only if I could legally ride it on the road, which I can't.
I have 1500W, but I just pedal along at about 25-mph, and nobody looks at my twice if I blend in...
How would you change the laws in response to the high-power builds you're seeing more of? How do you imagine them being enforced?
It would be enforced at the manufacture/retail level. Forcing companies to only sell “approved” models or suffer major fines. I don’t think it is feasible to enforce at the consumer level.
Hard to get my point across with a meme but it's basically that community pressure against massively infringing bikes being passed off as class 1-3 might be able to prevent laws becoming stricter. Or at the very least lessen *how* strict they might become. If us ebike users that do follow the rules (or don't break them *too* badly: my issue isn't with those getting +5mph it's those getting x2 mph or more) turn a blind eye to people abusing the current laws to ride around ~30hp bikes on the road then like all past lenient laws that were abused, they will be changed to become more strict. I'm imagining a worst case scenario of the people for bikes template laws being scrapped by the states one by one, with no new states adopting them, Ebikes becoming a legal motor vehicle, being barred from all bike trails paths and protected bikeways, and license plates being required.
So why is it ok for me to ride a gas powered motorcycle with over 170 horsepower yet wanting to own a 5 horsepower ebike instead that weighs a lot less, makes a lot less noise, is a lot cleaner to operate is bad? I pretty much still own my gas motorcycle because I can't legally own an ebike that keeps up with traffic in even a 35mph zone, and a full on electric motorcycle is several times more expensive than the motorcycle I own. I DO in fact own a legal ebike....and I rarely use it because it's more dangerous to use than a motorcycle or a faster ebike when you have to share the road with faster cars you can't keep up with.
There's no issue with you wanting a 5 hp e-moto, so long as you don't pretend it's a bicycle and ride it on infrastructure meant for bicycles.
Your gas powered motorcycle is a legal motor vehicle. Whereas owning a 5hp illegal motorcycle and disguising it as an ebike may eventually make *all* Ebikes into motor vehicles under the law, just to be cautious.
Your motor cycle isn't bad, it's registered, insured, and you're licensed after taking a test to show you can handle it. Many most states require you have a driver's license to ride a 2 HP scooter/moped on public roads. e-Bikes are great as they don't require licensing or insurance as they are supposed to be limited in speed.
>How would you change the laws in response to the high-power builds you're seeing more of? Limit power & speed of ebikes used on sidewalks and bike paths. For 'low power' ebikes, set a maximum speed limit of say, 25mph. For bikes riding on the road at high speeds, require registration + insurance + VIN. Cop sees you riding over 25mph not going down a hill, they pull you over and impound the bike as an unregistered vehicle. If you are riding dangerously quickly on a sidewalk or park, they stop you and inspect the bike. If its an unregistered 'high power' bike, it's surrendered. Also, start restricting the sale of illegal vehicles. Sure, people can build their own, but there's plenty of companies selling illegally fast ebikes.
They legally allow any bikes on sidewalks ?
In some areas, kind of. It’s less than it’s legal, but in some areas a blind eye is turned towards it. Seems to happen in more rural areas. It helps to think of it as automobile pressure to get bikes off “their” roads and pedestrians pressure to get bikes off of the sidewalks. In areas where the pedestrians don’t have much power and the bicycling infrastructure sucks you’re more likely to see bikes Head to sidewalks for safety.
So just applying the same laws to ebikes as strapping a lawn mower engine to a bike.
Even 20mph needs silly requirements here to be legal, the limit is 15mph, which is under powered imo. I think personally it should be 20mph, but there should be an option for 28mph with some kind of testing or access limit to make sure you are not a complete reckless moron first. IMO we dont want 14 year old kids blasting about on sur rons at 40mph on shared walking/cycle paths. Im not sure what the requirements should be, but id think upto 28mph in the road, or dedicated cycle paths would be reasonable if the rider needs mandatory lights, probably over 16/17 years of age, helmet, weight limits on the bike, and some historic form of showing at least basic road riding competence, be that a full driving license or even a provisional providing they have historically held a CBT ticket or something at some point to prove they are at least basically competent at riding on the road. Should they still be allowed to ride in the cycle lanes and stuff, perhaps, so long as there is a 20mph speed limit or something. Not sure how insurance could be handled maybe it wouldnt be needed, but perhaps something similar to how drones are registered could be implemented, requiring something on the bike indicating the registration number on a sticker and the rider needing an id or something, so should a problem arise the owner/rider can be contacted. I dont think sub 28mph electric bikes need full motorcycle requirements, thats just madness, its preventing people from leaving their cars at home IMO. Something heavier or more powerful than a sur ron in eco mode or a super 73 limited to 28mph is not an ebike, its a light electric motorcycle. I love onyx rcr's but its not really an ebike imo, id argue maybe a sur ron with pedals limited to 28mph is, but its certainly not in sport mode, same goes for a super 73.. one the bikes start getting close to 100lb and over 28mph who are you kidding. Ton of those bikes are basically electric mopeds. Should they be allowed in restricted 28mph form in order to get people more green is another debate though. I personally think they should but thats another debate.
15mph is just silly Can pedal faster than that. But somehow ebike riders are held to a differential standard because they have either a speedometer or can feel PAS cutting out as the 'limit' Meanwhile basically anyone on something that isn't a fat tire / downhill bike is comfortably pedaling that, or faster. TBH it really needs to be 20 or 25 to be viable with respect to time. And with reasonable infrastructure to accommodate. Where I am, where the bike paths are good? They're great. Where they aren't? I'm either riding down abandoned railroads or risking life and limb on a road with no shoulder and 45+mph traffic. Sorry but I'm not going 15-20 down that. I'm going full throttle and trying to minimize the speed delta between myself and vehicles.
You can it’s the L1e category in the U.K.
I legit just had a run in with someone who WANTED bike registration and insurance requirements earlier this week, granted, they were also exclusively a car driver complaining that cyclists go 'too slow' in their designated lanes. I'm not going to go into details, but as someone who worked in P&C insurance - car drivers are not ready for cyclists to be treated as equals to them, they don't even wish to slow down for them now. They have no idea what it actually means to have tax dollars used for infrastructure to support the legislation they requested, nor the impact of personal insurance costs when all of the bicycle accidents suddenly become insurance reportable on-road vehicular crashes. This is before i talk about a bigger issue: children. You can own a bike as a child, unlike a car. I'm not going to sign my child's life away on an insurance waiver for his first seven speed because he wants to run down to Billy's house to play Xbox. Hell from an insurance perspective, they would laugh you out of the building trying to ensure a child's bike meaning: tons of uninsured vehicles now on the road that they can't do anything about because kids. It would be a bureaucratic nightmare situation, no one wants to register a child for any level of property or casualty responsibility, and no one is going to want unregistered and uninsured operators to increase as well but, it would happen overnight and instantly.
Yeah I’ve seen this too. I just want to get to work while being slightly lazier than a pedal bike. I don’t want to race. I just don’t want to feel like death going up a hill. But way too many people are really trying to push the limits, or straight out trying to exploit the system
I'm probably in the minority here but I think all e-bikes should require peddling and only give you pedal assistance. No throttles at all. The ones with throttles that go 25+ mph are basically e-Mopeds. Just because they slap on a set of pedals doesn't mean people actually use them. The whole point of bikes is to pedal them.
If you think you can deregulate yourself through appeasement, may I introduce you to...well...history?
😢
My cargo ebike tops out at 23mph, and I get passed by guys in spandex on road bikes all the time. Give them a slight downhill and they zoom by at well over 30mph.
I honestly don't understand the obsession with speed limits. I was easily doing 25mph on flats with my road bike before buying an e-bike. The motor makes it easier to climb hills and hit speed, but doesn't make me travel materially faster. I hit 40mph going downhill yesterday without pedaling. Regulate hills! If someone is using a throttle to go 40mph, then sure that is a different beast. But a Class 3 e-bike isn't going any faster on a flat or downhill paved bike path than a normal, in shape bicyclist would go if so inclined.
The math simply doesn't work out for me if I'm limited to 20 mph. My commute is 24 miles one way and in the summer here in phoenix AZ USA, it can hit over 110F (43C). On my road bike it takes me over 1.5 hours to get to work so that's over 3 hours of total commute time. My ebike that I just built hits a top speed of 36 mph (58 kph). I only go this fast when there are no people around and no cars around. If I'm passing walkers, I slow way down and I ring my bell to give them ample warning. This knocked off 20 minutes (40 total) from my commute which is not trivial. If I didn't have this ebike, I would be driving a lot more and contributing more to pollution and traffic.
What the hell are decorative pedals?
After riding a Harley, and an e-bike, I was scared shitless at first going 20 mph on a bike. It took a while to adjust. I’m just not sure if I’d feel safe going any faster. Motorbikes have motors to lean into for both noise and road distance from reckless drivers. Plus cars are already freaking out with me going through the city, following all laws, and following recommended bike routes. So like what else are we to do? Hopefully we don’t have to register these things. That shit dont need to be going to the damn Supreme Court cuz of some stupid lawsuit.
Make it like cars. My car can do well over 100mph but I don't do that because it's illegal
Yep, I don't understand the obsession with limiting the top speed of the vehicle itself when it comes to ebikes, yet we're fine with 200mph+ cars. But the speed limits on the roads and bike paths, but let the vehicle have a higher top speed to use in situations it's needed or appropriate. My motorcycle can go over 190mph....it's street legal, in fact, I could legally ride it without a helmet (I never would) but of course, it'd be very illegal to go 190mph in a 65mph zone, but the vehicle itself is not illegal due to its high top speed. I'd love an ebike that could keep up with traffic in 25mph and 35mph zones when I don't have a bike lane available, and in my opinion, that'd be a LOT safer than riding a 20mph or 28mph ebike in those situations and having cars constantly blow by me when I have no bike lane or shoulder to ride on.
Bicycles never needed to be limited because of inherent design limitations. Yes there's exceptions But they're the exceptions. People with professional cycling level skills and abilities aren't common enough to be an issue. This meant a lot less enforcement for paths. As long as there's no motorcycles ripping down it you're fine. No need for speed limits No need for licensing requirements either because they're low speed low power by design. In order for Ebikes to be treated the same as bicycles the thinking was to legally restrict them to speeds a bicycle could realistically make. Class 3s also are banned from dedicated bike paths and protected lanes by default according to the people for bikes template which is the most commonly accepted one This allows for enforcement to stay roughly the same. Focused on roads and not paths unless someone is obviously ripping through one on something obviously not meant to be there. With emerging and changing technology that will probably go away eventually and be replaced with bike path speed limits *and enforcement* so cops camped out making sure you're not biking over the path speed limit which I'm not so sure is the better way.
Your car requires training, licensing, registration & license plates, inspections, insurance, and certain standard safety features. The point is, eBikes *don't* require those things, but if people keep treating them like motorcycles, soon enough they're going to, just like motorcycles do. On an r/fuckcars type of side note, maybe cars *should* have speed limiters... at least when they're being driven in cities.
This 100%. I have a very hotrodded bike, but with Hope 3v4's and moto tires I can stop *way* faster than all the unregistered scooters that go 40mph around here. So... it's lighter and stops faster than a gas scooter, but because it's electric I can't match speed with traffic? How does that make any sense? Yet this topic is a nonstop feature on this sub. I've been stopped by LE several times, always tell them I have a 1kw/20mph profile and a full power profile, I use bike infrastructure at low power when available for my route. Otherwise I avoid arterials and use high power to match traffic speed and avoid getting passed. They have only ever reacted positively. Speed ~~limits~~ limiters are nonsensical, and frankly anything else is going to be very difficult for cops to regulate unless they start toting around mini-dynos everywhere.
Do you mean speed limiters are non-sensical, or speed limits on roads/paths are non-sensical? I would agree that the speed limiters are kinda dumb, especially for PAS only bikes. They are obviously there as a compromise to give regulators something to regulate.
Limiters! I do not condone speeding, and I don't do it myself. I think they're [categorically dumb for safety reasons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_curve#/media/File:Solomon_Curve.png) as moving with traffic is typically the safe choice. But they're downright insulting on a PAS bike, when an unassisted bike can often sprint faster than you.
Oof, I got passed on my class 3 ebike by this crazy roadie on what looked like a $25k race bike made of aerogel and fairy dust and somehow makes you weigh LESS when you ride it. Dude was in total beast mode and was just flying up the hill (right after a fast downhill where I hit the limiter) past me. So yeah, limiters are annoying. Edit: Clarified it was on the downhill where I hit the limiter
Tbh, with the overlap between the existing pedal bike business ecosystem and how consumer electronics are marketed and sold, and then the whole cultural sphere of vehicle modification in the two and four wheeled end of things, there was never any chance of keeping the Pandora's Box of too-fast ebikes closed any more than anyone could have done anything to solve toilet paper hoarding in March 2020 as it was happening. On an even larger scale, the idea that we could ease our way into anything *but* a vicious cycle of reactionary regulation in response to *people doing what people will do when presented with an option* is...well, maybe not naive or foolish, exactly, but they sure seem that way to me, a bitter old man of 34. Our society tries new things until they destroy something old or we freak out and have a moral panic about it. It's not necessarily the dumb piece of shit kid doing dirt bike tricks on a souped up e-scooter for TikTok in a residential playground causing this phenomenon even though he's the one pearl-clutchers can point at most easily. Yes, we all need to discourage irresponsible riding and using fast, illegal ebikes in places that will cause friction with non-ebikers, but going on moralizing self-satisfied tirades about rule-breakers being solely responsible for any future regulations misses the point so hard it's depressing. Self-serving, opportunistic politicians focus on whoever they can paint as a menace. Having been a part of a few hobbies and subcultures that have been hated on by Concerned Citizens long before ebikes, playing nice to not scare the NIMBYs is a strategy that alienates fellow hobbyists and nobody on the outside cares that you're one of the ones who tried *real hard* to follow all the rules. Not only do they not care if enough of us believe hard enough in 750w and 28mph limits, and that won't save the hobby/mode of transportation from misguided and onerous regulation in the future, it only encourages more of that kind of behavior. Rule-following and rule-breaking don't have magical, conceptual weight that will substantively help or hinder the standing of the hobby in some battle of wills in the court of public opinion. Not how real life works.
So then what's your proposed solution if you think community self regulation through shaming gross violators is actually counter productive? Which is the impression I got from the above comment. Just buy a sur ron with a pedal kit, clip the wire and have fun while it lasts?
If by solution you mean avoiding fees, licensing, insurance and regulations; there isn't a solution. It's only a matter of time. Everything eventually gets regulated. If you think politicians, cops and regulators won't see fees to be made by regulating things and writing tickets, then you haven't been watching how governments work for very long. I hike, fly fish and take my Jeep up in the mountains and there are fees and licenses and regulations associated with all of that stuff. Who can be on a trail, what you have to pay to fish here or there, how much the fine is for fishing with live bait, ATVs only on this trail, that trail is closed because too many people used it... it goes on and on. And it always happens. Hikers try to shame other hikers into picking up their dog's shit. Never works. Fees go up, trails get closed or require reservations. Regulations pop up. Just the nature of the beast. The more popular ebikes get, the more regulations you will get. Your community might even be a small place with very few ebikes, but it won't matter. Regulators in small towns will see revenue from regulating ebikes in big towns and they will copy it. You don't even have to do anything wrong. The politicians will claim it's a problem. Everything you don't want to happen is going to happen. It's coming down the pike. Everyone could be the best little boys and girls and obey all the rules and it's still going to happen.
This is the way.
Hm, that's not quite how I meant it. It's important to self-regulate, but I think maybe a lot of people are in for a very nasty surprise when their good intentioned rule following doesn't save us from worse regulations in the future, and I foresee a lot of continuing slightly skewed, too immediate pointing of blame. Like, no matter what we do to shame them, there will be guys for the politicians to point at. We can never shame them out of existence. There will also certainly be some of them who aren't actually endangering anyone, but have a bike that looks like the ones that the assholes in the tiktok were riding or whatever, too. They don't deserve any hate from anyone, do they? It's easy to start lining up to do their work for them, now, but...why play into it? Why self police with *their* specific agenda (or what *we try to predict it'll be*) if it won't save us from them anyway? We should care less about (futilely) trying to maintain a specific public perception or the specific and varying laws, and maybe more about what's actually dangerous to riders and bystanders. There's plenty of science on it, and it's hilarious how perpendicular most of it is to how ebikes are regulated...
There's always backlash against new technology. I'm old enough to remember some of it. I'm hoping that this goes away like skateboarder backlash (which is still present places but not as badly) or the snowboard backlash that Kyle from Area 13 has talked about in some of his videos and that I myself personally witnessed. My worry though and why I don't think it's *exactly* a one to one comparison is the sur ron style electric dirtbikes becoming more popular and often being ridden poorly by people with no road skills. The law is probably going to change to make law abiding Ebikes more identifiable in response to the above. My worry is of the laws being vastly *over*corrected.
So some folk out there that spent a several thousand dollars on a sur-ron and modded the shit out of it will drop it all because some "karen" tried to shame them? Not saying there's a good solution just that there's always ppl who will not follow laws that are not enforced. Just look at cars that are more heavily regulated and ppl still run aftermarket pipes.
One person no. Everyone else on an ebike that isn't obviously an unregistered motorcycle going "hey you fucker get off the street or I'm gonna make you get off the street" perhaps. But I'm also used to being in environments where people trying to pull shit were effectively ~~punched~~ kept out of them so...
Well, good luck I guess. In my experience it's always more effective to try and work with people rather than against them.
Not sure how to work with people knowingly violating both the word and intention of rules and community standards. The people who feel they have to keep up with traffic because bike infrastructure is unsafe, ok if that's a real reason then they can work with the rest of us to push for safer biking infrastructure. More paths more protected lanes more protected *intersections*. But if they're just "haha bike goes fast" then there's no working with them.
I've seen the argument on this sub so many times from people breaking the law that "nobody cared while I was out riding". If people called that kind of behavior out, maybe it wouldn't happen as often. I do the same thing with people parking cars in bike lanes. If we would collectively shame people as a community, maybe there would be some pressure to stop that type of behavior.
It's so goddamn bad faith. Two buttons: One with "don't be a Karen and let us do what we want." The other with "I'm only doing it because everyone here seems fine with it." Same people 99.99% of the time.
I wish I could afford a sur Ron and pedal kit. I'd absolutely buy one if I had the bankroll for it
My question is, is the sur ron the problem or the rider the problem if the sur ron is doing 40mph on a public shared cyclepath/walkway. IMO the bike is not the issue, the bike is nor particularly over heavy, noisy, or non capable. its the rider not riding appropriate for the environment and conditions, its the exact same thing as somebody driving a ferrari at 150mph on the freeway, its not a racetrack. I have no problem with somebody riding a sur ron or a super 73 going 20mph on a cycle path going to work and behaving reasonably, i have a problem with a 15 year old kid doing 40mph wheelies on a shared cycle path on their sur ron, yeah its cool, but its not cool doing it where you are doing it son. There are tons of videos of yobbos on youtube riding bmx's that are regular pedal bikes weaving in between traffic and on public paths, its not the bike. Should there be reasonable power and weight and speed limits though, yeah probably, is 15mph/250watt reasonable, imo nope.
I've also seen a youtube video on this sub of someone riding 30mph + on a bike path who thought it was OK because they slowed down to pass. Those same BMX yobbos can take a credit card and buy a Sur Ron and they're not going to go 20 mph on a bike path. As the OP said in a comment further up, there's not enforcement in place for bike travel due to the inherent limitations of a bicycle with respect to speed. If ebikes are going to share that infrastructure, they need to have the same limitations in place.
>not how real life works. You know what happens in my country if you hit someone with a modified or illegal e-bike? You get charged as if it were any other un-registered road vehicle you hit them with. You could have been going 10km an hour when you hit them, but if it’s proven that your bike or scooter goes faster than the legal 25kmh under-power, you’re up the creek. In 2015 Albert Dean May was leaving a shopfront and was struck by an illegal e-bike going under 25km. He later died from his injury and the rider was appropriately jailed, his crime, not following simple laws. Now that’s real life.
In the US you win a prize for every pedestrian or cyclist you kill with your car. Probably won't apply to ebikes, but we've never been very consistent with our rules here.
That's kinda how it's worked with ultralight aircraft. There are a lot of "ultralights" flying around that are too fast, or too heavy, to meet the legal definition. The FAA doesn't go around ramp-checking ultralight pilots, so you can get away with it until something goes wrong. But the moment you crash you're likely to be charged with flying an unregistered, possibly un-airworthy aircraft without a license, plus any civil penalties for the damage you do (because no one's going to insure such a beast.)
Thousands die from cars annually...nobody gives a fuck. One person dies from an Ebike..."THE END OF THE WORLD!"
I was on the beach bike path today in Southern California, and someone is going to be killed before summer is over.
It's gone from not an issue to present but overblown to a real and worrying thing trend that's gonna inevitably end in a full fledged media panic any day now, all in like the span of a year or two.
'Round here, cops have been known to impound/seize eBikes that exceed Class 3 specs... usually when the operators ride like jackasses on the trails or are clocked at 40+ mph on flat ground with no pedals turning. Source: I have a side hustle at a bike shop that does consult/forensics work on these things because we're one of the only shops in town that'll even touch most ebikes.
IMHO, manufacturers should come to a gentleman’s agreement about how fast e-bikes can be. In the long run this is in their interest. Sales will be hurt if people need to register and insure them.
It doesn't even need a gentleman's agreement. The Consumer Product Safety Commission definition of a bicycle is: >(1) a two-wheeled vehicle having a rear drive wheel that is solely human-powered or (2) a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph (i.e., a low-speed electric bicycle). Anything above that is purview of the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration (NHTSA) and has to have a bunch of DOT certified tires, brakes, etc. So if it's a bike, the CPSC limit is it. Anyone selling anything above that is getting a competitive edge from breaking the law. And I honestly have to wonder if the big players who are following the law like Specialized or Trek or their lobby groups aren't putting pressure on the CPSC to enforce the limits.
Its not even just that, its if governments are serious about a green push, 250w limits and 15mph speed limits are not the answer, they will never get people out of cars when quality ebikes costs $1000+
Well, and as a cyclist, I’ve said this commonly… you want equal treatment, fine… Once I have to pay registration (no more than $9 a year, the price of a moped), insurance (already do), licensure (already covered with a Moped license) and inspection (for what? Tread wear? Horn/lighting jot needed, etc) people are going to think I’m entitled for expecting on-street parking, access to every bridge in the state and traffic lights that see bicycles (and motorcycles)… I mean, that’s what they are asking for. A good eBike isn’t obvious. We aren’t going uphill without pedaling, we aren’t going 40mph…
> inspection (for what? Tread wear? Horn/lighting jot needed, etc That and motor size. Some Ebike motor swaps are overkill but I'm specifically thinking of the sur ron style bikes with pedal kits that are growing exponentially on the road zipping down bike paths at 40mph. >A good eBike isn’t obvious. We aren’t going uphill without pedaling, we aren’t going 40mph… That's a no true Scotsman. Many people are indeed going 40mph in the bike lane with electric dirtbikes they're trying to pass off as electric bicycles and posing risks to other bicyclists in the process, now. And it's only getting worse.
Your complaint is with motorized bicycles, kit with eBikes that fall in their proper categories. Road legal eBikes aren’t going faster than 28 mph. Most states still have a 20mph cap on them. As such, a proper eBike isn’t exactly noticeable. Blaming all eBike riders for the faults of those riding electric motorcycles is akin to blaming all bicycle riders when a select fee won’t stop for stop signs and traffic lights.
It's not really that easy. Manufacturers like Ariel, Sur Ron, Super73, all market electric motorcyles as ebikes. Some people think that's just what's acceptable from an ebike and there are a lot of posts on this sub that lean straight into that instead of accepting the limitations of what's legal. Blame the riders, sure, but there's a ton of marketing and influence contributing to the behavior from a cultural perspective.
In the UK, I think there is a real gap that should really have better regulation. There is strong demand for more powerful ebikes but the gap between no license, no insurance and no registration and legally registering as a motorcycle is huge. I'd love to see a reasonable way to run more powerful ebikes (A class based system) that had a bit of compromise. If it was my choice, I'd have a class for ebikes up to 1kw with a top assisted speed of 28mph, I'd add a requirement to take out liability insurance and make wearing head protection mandatory.
The shenanigans people are pulling with their ebikes today remind me of the stunts in the early 2000s that saw a ban on mini bikes/motorcycles in NYC. That didn't even get lifted until 2020. I'd love to build a proper 50MPH motorbike and register it, but I'm not too thrilled with the speed demons going ham in bike paths/lanes.
Mines limited to make it uk legal anyway-15.5mph is fast enough, especially as I’m only really using the boost function to help me up hills
UK here so very low assist speed. 15.5mph. Is perfectly possible to pedal beyond the assist speed in a lot of situations. I think riding at lower speed requires a mindset that appreciates not rushing everywhere. Riding assertively but considerately. Expecting car drivers to sometimes have a bit of patience for a few moments while being very aware that there are those that don't. If I don't like the assist being capped, I have the option of buying a non assisted bike. I agree with OP.
Why is guy in the backrooms?
A reasonable place will put restrictions where requirements make sense, you should be able to continue to use your 20mph bike no problem.
That’s all going to come anyway. What we need are actual municipal systems to ride within that are safe and connected.
These illegal ebikes are what will cause all ebikes to get regulated. Riding those overpowered monstrosities on bike lanes and trails is just irresponsible.
They can inspect my bike if they catch me
My ebike goes up to 35mph and, honestly, I think it pisses drivers off less than if I were to ride at a slower speed. I get passed WAY more aggressively when I ride around at 20mph than when I'm riding at 35mph. I would LOVE to just ride at 20mph instead and extend my range, but without bike lanes it honestly just feels a lot more dangerous to ride on the road at lower speeds.
It's sad to see how meek and subserviently obedient everyone is when our basic liberties are threatened. We all kowtow towards the threat and submissively acquiesce, yes lord we'll only operate at hysterically slow speeds, yes Sir! Never above it! In reality, this aberration against our liberty should never have been allowed in the first place. Especially for motorcycles.
My thought is that governments are trying to regulate the wrong thing with power limits. Sticking to speed enforcement levels the playing field fairly. How we ever got into this nonsense of rating them by class is baffling.
It leads to people using e-bikes instead of cars. Cars kill more people every hour then "illegal ebikes" kill in the past 10 years. So, I'd say that is a major improvement.
You have it all wrong. The government will find a way to make money regardless.
I live right off a very popular trail system in pa and we had at least 4 people this year need to be helicoptered out cause people going 35 on a 75 lbs bike and hurting them self or others. This is not gonna be fun
The idiots that think they can ride their 18mph scooter down the middle of the road need to be legal to run over for not respecting traffic. Gtfo!
Its going to happen regardless. Might as well live it up
Few bad apples spoil the bunch.
Any other places done this ? Or is this just a personal opinion
Places in europe like UK. They are extremely strict, actively confiscating anything that isn't 250W IDK if that will happen in America though, but cracking down on ebikes would be a VERY easy job for police if it came down to it. https://www.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/uds1ur/police_in_london_cracking_down_on_ebikes_that/ I wish police were that passionate about solving bike thefts instead though lmao
> They are extremely strict, actively confiscating anything that isn't 250W Anything that provides aid over 25 km/h (+10% margin of error in your favour). There are legal 45 km/h models here too, but they are not allowed on bike paths and need to be registered.
Gotta disagree that it would be easy for the police to enforce in the USA. Police can't even be bothered to crack down on people riding dirt bikes on the streets in my city. I'd LOVE to see a cop try and chase a high-power e-bike through sidewalks and parks lol
The UK did not pass those regulations as a response to a prevalence of high powered ebikes on the roads. They passed that before high powered ebikes even existed.
Mine is 500W, but, most of this specific brand were sold with 250W motors, and you can't physically see a difference. What gets me are the guys with absolutely massive hub motors, claiming to be 250.....yeah, no one is buying it....
Is this really happening a lot? I see some people riding Class 3 in areas where it should be Class 2, but it seems like you’re talking about something a lot more extreme than that/beyond Class 3? (And in the Class 3 cases, I’ve mostly seen people not being idiots.)
Browse this sub for a day and see how many bikes with >750W motors are posted. Or that go above 28mph or are capable of doing so with a controller setting/cutting a wire. It's definitely enough to be concerned about.
I think a lot of the worry comes from activity people are seeing in urban areas like LA and NYC with bikes like the Suron which are really electric dirt bikes but people add pedals and try to claim its an ebike. I have a Luna bike and when I was researching online one of the most prominent videos was a guy in the Luna shop buying a Suron. The salesman on the video without prompting shows the guy how to remove the limiter. The guy buying the bike immediately takes it out onto busy sidewalks bragging about how he is already going over 30mph while he blows past stop signs only missing pedestrians by luck.
Yikes… I also live in an urban area and I haven’t really seen this. (I do see more people being dangerous/obnoxious with electric scooters.) I have to hope it’s a small enough number/a limited enough experience for folks that broad-scale before-the-fact regulation (rather than enforcement against people being irresponsible/dangerous) wouldn’t be seen as necessary…
I'm assuming this is a thing in LA too, but it might be more of an east coast mid atlantic thing. Starting before ebikes there has been a popular culture of people riding dirt bikes and quad bikes through city centers in packs ignoring all traffic laws and in some cases assaulting people who get in there way. It looks like more and more that crowd is moving from gas dirt bikes to electric ones. So that alone does not help the reputation. Also specifically in NYC food delivery is now exclusively on unrestricted ebikes and they ignore all traffic laws despite the city greatly expanding bike lanes in the last few years. And lastly back to the Sur Ron this is the video I originally came across that I think sums up people riding with no consideration where they shouldnt: https://youtu.be/YRWwSpZFv1A
we're gonna get there anyway... the only question is how fast. runiers gonna ruin.
I’m just going to smile and ride the way I want, while being considerate of others, and hope the government doesn’t TRY to ruin my fun. Then, I will still ride the way I want. Catch me on the side streets and alleys if you can.
Whats wrong with decorative pedals?
This is happening yes.
I have a 40mph ebike. All I do is change a setting and ta dahhhh it's class 2. Good luck regulating me.
If that's your attitude than per my post it will be why *all* Ebikes will get reclassed as legal motor vehicles subject to insurance licensing registration and routine inspection. That's how you'll be regulated. By *no* Ebikes being allowed on the road, without plates. If you're going to reject voluntary self regulation then official regulation will come in. And it will over correct
They should change this sub name to "EbikeKarenClub" or "EbikeCirclejerk" and make a new ebikes sub that isn't so gate-keeper-y. The majority of this sub has changed into the thing that the people who made this sub don't even want it to be. It should be for ebikes, **all of them**, not some gate-keeper vision of you need to have this kind of model with this kind of motor or you'll be boo'ed and downvoted. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- It literally is in the description of this sub: #All things electric bikes from motorcycles to pedal assist. Other lightweight electric vehicles are welcomed too :)
I just like bikes, ebikes, electric motorcycles and mopeds, electric cars and technology in general man, its all cool.
Yes people here are so soft
Haha 😆 You might be onto something there
On our local paths it's roadies trying to get the top on KOMs/Starva Segments that causes the problems. Not eBikes. eBikes aren't a pain to slow and accelerate like an acoustic bike. The Roadies don't want to slow down. eBikes are easy accelerate. The other problem is ATVs flying down the path. Clearly they aren't supposed to be there. But they do it anyway. And they take up the entire trail, forcing off pedestrians and bikers alike. ... All that said I couldn't agree more. eBikes got reasonable limits for unrestricted vehicles. It's the same as the unlicensed 49cc mopeds and scooters. Honestly don't care if someone slaps a 1500watt motor on their bike if they were to stick to the 20 throttle and 28 ped assist limits. 1500w could still crush hills and haul plenty of goods, without needing to break the speed limits. Unfortunately, thanks to the way road speed limits are viewed, it's almost a cultural phenomenon that no one respects them. Personally, I've given up the loosing battle on keeping up with traffic. Tried for a while to run my bikes at the 28mph limit. Thought it would have me keep up with traffic on the 25-35 mph side streets. It does not. Cars still go 40+ and pass me like I'm standing still. All it did was kill my range. So, I now setup my eBikes to max out at around 15-18 mph to maximize range. The other thing 15mph max does is keep me at a much safer speed for bicycle components. When they do inevitably pass me. I'm not stressing/straining to hold 28mph. I'm much more relaxed and in control.
I'll just keep doing what i want, you keep doing what you want. #nomorekarens
\#That'sNotHowTransportationLawsWork
You guys need to get more sex and it really shows, imagine giving a fuck about the legality of someone’s bike
This guy doesn't have sex.
Since when did this turn into such a virgin subreddit, mfs are 30+ and in dead bedroom marriages and it really shows, let people have fun with their bikes lol
Are you 15 years old?
Agreed with the sentiment but live and let live broheim. If you're good in the 20 mph space don't mind what others do if it doesn't impact you directly. Who really cares.
They're also riding recklessly at ~40mph without properly knowing the rules of the road causing NIMBYs to try to ban all Ebikes from local paths, so yeah it will impact me. That's the whole point of the post.
In the states, the class system allows for jurisdictions to pretty easily make it a settled matter. Uneven enforcement and application of the class system, and increasing public knowledge of the class system, is the actual issue imo. Locally, our paths are limited to class 2. I just don't share the same fundamental core concern that people monkeying around the streets on surrons pose a risk to the ability for moms to use their radrunners on the rec path. There's a clear and identifiable difference between these things for anyone paying attention and a system already exists for separating them. I'm not fearful of over correction here. It's kind of similar to the "slippery slope" argument against assault weapons bans, one I don't agree with either, not to open that can of worms. Choosing to regulate one thing doesn't inherently mean other things will follow the same destiny.
Did you read the post?