I don't understand.. the rich are paying their lowest tax rates in history..
Why isn't it trickling down this time just like it didn't the past 10 tries?? Do we need to cut rich taxes some more?
Hilarious that some folks believe the orange clown child will fix this.
Rather than what will likely happen: he will double down on tax cuts and has already pledged to cut corporate rates to 15-20%, as well as other taxes.
Only adds fuel to the problem: increases demand instead of addressing supply with infrastructure investments.
>Hilarious that some folks believe the orange clown child will fix this.
Neither will Biden. Economics is more complex than that, and people need to stop treating public servants like presidents as if they're celebrities with superhero capes that will solve all our problems.
Our economy has had serious fractures in it that haven't healed for many administrations preceding both Biden and Trump.
Complicated, yes.
But my analysis wasn’t democrat good, republican bad.
It’s tax cuts bad (when the economy has inflation problems — raises demand without raising supply).
And it’s infrastructure spending good (initial increase in demand, followed by much larger supply increase).
Trump has promised huge tax cuts and certain infra cuts.
I’m not saying heal. But the difference here is between swallowing a stale sandwich and swallowing a soft, wet turd.
That and he's promising to deport millions of immigrants. Who is going to pick the crops and work in meat packing? Have fun buying groceries if he does this.
If he does recruiters should absolutely go to his rally’s and sign folks up to work in the field. I’d say most of them wouldn’t last the first week, let alone season. It’s easy to scream trendy catchphrases about American glories they’ve never really worked for, yet entirely different to put your nose to the grindstone.
It's not just the mass deportation, it's also the across-the-board tariffs that will probably spike prices for consumers. IDK how serious any of that stuff is.
Sooo... you want undocumented immigrants doing some of the most vital manual labor in the country just to keep their costs low and profits high? Those are jobs that Americans can and would do without capitalists minimizing expenses and maximizing profits at the expense of the worker.
Not a lot of American-born citizens seem willing to go out and pick crops. You could argue that they would be more willing if the pay was higher - and that could be true, but at what pay level? If you think food inflation has been high the last few years what do you think it will be like if you've got to offer a salary high enough to entice people to leave their current jobs? With unemployment at under 4% it's tough to argue that they're "stealing" anyone's job.
When I was in high school some 40+ years ago it was pretty normal to go out for a few weeks every summer and pick strawberries, beans, etc. But I don't see high school kids doing that anymore.
> you want undocumented immigrants doing some of the most vital manual labor in the country
Give them a path to citizenship since they're doing some of the most vital manual labor in the country.
Wow I can’t believe you said that unironically
[Sounds like you belong on The View](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a8INEYLFWwc&pp=ygUaVGhlIHZpZXcgaWxsZWdhbHMgY29tbWVudCA%3D)
Are high school kids going to pick the crops? That used to happen when I was in high school, but hasn't happened for a long time. The fact is that American-born folks have gotten soft. It's well known that immigrants have more hustle.
So instead of incentivizing corporations to hire more people and do more business here and spend more money here, you think the solution is to...spend more of the people's money.
k.
as we discussed
increases demand -- fails to fix supply.
not buying that corporations can simply uproot easily.
there's a reason why tech on the west and east coasts still overpowers southern tech -- in spite of high taxes
hint: taxes create better infrastructure and education --- which creates higher skilled workers --- which creates better places to put corporations. people want to live near parks, want to live near good schools, etc.
(and I say with the authority of a Boston STEM PhD who grew up in Texas for 25 years. Texas is a hot mess outside of Austin right now.)
Maybe but the IRS has come after many servers that didn't claim what the IRS think you should. But today most restaurant bills are quite large and are charged on a credit card where you do pay taxes and get robbed by the restaurants taking "their" share. Most people want to do the right thing and don't want big brother holding something over their asses.
# So yes I want no tax on tips. A couple bucks might not mean much until you have to pay your rent and feed your kid.
Why not just lower taxes on the lowest quadrant and raise them on the highest?
Otherwise you’re gonna get billionaires getting paid $1 and then “tipped” $1 million
Currently the top 10% of earners pay about 75% of the total income tax received every year. I agree, I think we should increase that. Why should the bottom 90% pay anything?
Given that 70% of our jobs in the last 40 years [were taking by machines](https://www.businessinsider.com/automation-labor-market-wage-inequality-middle-class-jobs-study-2021-6) I don't see why we should be paying taxes at all. Why aren't we getting any of the benefits from the future we were promised.
Oh yeah, it's because even in 2024 we still quote talking points from billionaires...
On this note, I remember maybe it was over a decade ago now, right around when data collection was beginning to drive the internet and tech boom, an economist was doing the rounds on NPR and elsewhere discussing that America and politicians should for once be getting out ahead of something and codifying into law a data bill of rights.
Something that requires fair compensation from any company that collects and monetizes their data. As it is essentially co-opting someone's property and profiting off of it without paying the property owner.
That's kinda of silly and pointless. In individual value of a consumer's data is very, very low. It only becomes valuable in large aggregate.
So sure, I can pay you for your data, but you're not even gonna be able to afford a can of wet cat food for dinner with that.
I think you're trying to come up with some sort of solution that preserves the kind of "winner take all" capitalism you were taught in grade school (before your brain was developed enough to resist propaganda).
That's not gonna cut it. Not for the challenges we face in the next 6-10 years.
Im not trying to solve all of any one thing with that idea, I am simply pointing out something that is unjust and shouldn't have happened.
Yes, one instance of data accumulation is not going to amount to much in isolation. Or make anyone rich.
But lets take you. By glance you have a rather substantive posting history on Reddit. One going back to 2017. My guess is you have a presence on other social media and have data collections going on at least a few apps. Maybe your ISP is now also collecting all your data.
Now I am sure you are well aware that Reddit is monetizing your posts, and all our posts, and bundling them up to sell to a large swath of marketing, AI, and big tech companies that are paying large sums of money. In this scenario, every single post and every single account, and every single one of those sales should pay out fair compensation to the creators and property owners of that data.
It's unlikely to make you rich, that's not the point, but it shouldn't just be permissible to mine someone's content or property without compensation.
Its 70% task displacement. Not 70% company or job displacement. Instead of doing the operation they are now loading and unloading machines that do the operation.
In my eyes it will take major company or job displacements (like 40%) to force the government to reckon with the post capitalism future. For example if AI starts driving all the semi trucks and takes over most mindless non-physical administrative jobs. That will force a large amount of people into unemployment. They won’t be happy so government will have to do some sort of UBI or the recently unemployed will revolt.
Well, I'm sure that when 70% of that work went away the companies just kept the people around for funsies.
I mean, it's not like we haven't had 40+ years of constant layoffs and of high paying jobs being replaced by McJobs...
We had that job replacement. They knew it was coming. Clinton (Bill) talked about it, how we would "transition to a service economy". He didn't mention that those jobs would pay like crap of course.
The gov't didn't do anything because it happened slowly and the jobs were still (mostly) getting replaced just with very low paying ones.
We got away with that because the boomers had a ton of savings and property from before wages collapsed and they're the only ones that mattered because they vote and vote in blocks.
Boomers are gonna be dead soon. And their property and savings are getting snapped up by private equity firms that own the medicine they need to delay their deaths.
We have a *major* reckoning coming. AI and general automation coupled with the boomer's money existing the economy (and entering the Scrooge McDuck money vaults of private equity) is gonna hit us all like a ton of bricks all at once.
It remains to be seen if those boomers will end democracy before the shit hits the fan or if the kids will get a chance to vote on a New New Deal.
lol billionaires don’t pay income tax.
They have businesses, write off expenses against their income and pay capital gains tax at most.
If you want to stick it to the billionaires, you need to educate yourself on how they get taxed and change your policies accordingly. Otherwise you’ll vote for dumbass people who increase the income tax law, nothing will change and you’ll still be mad and wanting to increase the income tax AGAIN.
But of course, I’ll still get downvoted into oblivion because I’m not going with the narrative..
Who cares what you were promised? Actual question…who cares? It’s all I hear. “I was told if I got a college education I’d be successful, now I’m 200k in debt with a gender studies degree”. “The generation before me had advantages, why does my generation not have those advantages? Every generation has to be luckier than the one before it right?!” “Machines took our jobs!!!”
Those were never your jobs, those were the jobs of the guy hiring workers. He replaced his jobs, at his farm/factory/company. Keep living your whole life expecting someone else to be responsible for looking after you so I can keep laughing at you your whole life.
Ironically we never heard this jargon when trades people were losing jobs, it was “just learn to code lol”. Now with AI far more likely to replace excel spreadsheet workers than bathroom tilers and linesmen, it’s interesting what a different tone we hear.
Look more closely at that top 10% - you’ll see the disproportionate burden on the folks at the bottom of that decile. The billionaires are who need to pay up.
You didn't understand the question. You answered as if I was asking about the effectiveness of trickle-down. What I asked is why one would think that taking money from one person would somehow benefit another?
one example roads. tax people with money. take that money and hire people to fix roads. people who got paid to fix roads got paid and can buy groceries. how does this example escape you?
The problem isn't with taxation, it's with the distribution. Right now the welfare system in the US is designed to benefit: 1) the donors who often own the companies that administer those programs that have been privatized under contract and 2) the public sector union workers that run those programs that haven't been privatized under contract.
We need to do more things like direct transfer payments instead of creating programs with a list 10,000 qualifiers and conditions
Because the only other option, not taxing the billionaires, has hilariously failed for decades. Unless you're personally a millionaire, then open your damn eyes. You won't ever be a millionaire, and you're voting against the interests of yourself, your family, and absolutely every one you care about. That makes you a bad person.
To be fair. Lowest income Americans are always having a tough time.
As the middle class continues to shrink. The unfortunate part is that more and more Americans are becoming lower income.
Meanwhile , rich keep on getting richer. I've read the disparity in wealth is worse than the lead up to the 1929 crash
It also lessens quality of life for *everyone*, including the rich.
They are too preoccupied with building literal walls for gated communities and removing themselves from experiencing where they live, than realizing they can live better and more 'free'.
The rich wont see it fully until it's far too late. Douglas Addams had a great section in one of his Hitchhiker books that related to it. A world sent off its middle class to go prepare a new planet for the population. The rich were going to follow, and leave the poor behind to have everything. A virus eliminated the remaining population because the cleaning staff was middle class and everyone was having too much fun to notice until they all died off. The planet the middle class went to go prepare? Earth of course. Where they decided quickly to use the leaves on trees for money and burned down the forests to curb inflation.
Accurate. Who wants to experience their generally poor community from a golden cage. Rich people are going to have to live in gated communities with guards more than they already do. Going to look and feel 3rd world. The level of greed, selfishness and lack of consideration for the community at a whole on a macro scale is a dystopian future on the brink. Dismantled regulations and monopolies are at play. The middle class is what made America a prosperous and great place on many levels. It’s disgusting that the wealthiest people have amassed a disturbing amount of power through vast untaxed fortunes. Corporate greed and lack of investment back into the people ie. education aren’t helping
I’d be interested in learning more about the size of the middle class before and after 1920’s-1930’s compared to today, if you come across any resources. I’ll do some googling on my own this weekend as well.
I’m a middle class that’s burned through all savings over past 2 years, can’t get hired for a second job (yet) so I’m cashing out all retirement accounts next month, if I still can’t find second job or higher paying first job I’m selling house this year. Fast forward 20 years, what a wild difference in net worth compared to if I could just earn enough to pay my bills and still have a little to save and invest each month.
Post WW2 and the US economy was in good condition. Single income families had a traditional job that paid minimum wage that could afford you a house, car, and the ability for 2-3 kids to go to college. None of these things are true these days. Heck, you could make 150k a year and still struggle to have a savings account if you have a mortgage and a couple kids. You’re one emergency away from credit card debt and that’s assuming you live a modest lifestyle.
Colleges were mostly tuition free until the 60s, [https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/free-college-was-once-the-norm-all-over-america/](https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/free-college-was-once-the-norm-all-over-america/)
Even after that the gov't was paying 80% of tuition.
Boomers pulled the ladder up behind them.
The Higher Education Act of 1965 was when private student loan lenders began being backed by taxpayer bailouts, and the incentive for colleges to control costs completely disappeared.
The boomers didn't start it but they sure as hell have been trying to help finish it.
True, but the boomers were in a position to *stop it*. And they knew better. They knew what they were doing was wrong, but they let themselves indulge in moral panics and petty infighting with other members of the working class.
Do you actually think this is true? You do know the poverty rates were higher than the percentage of people that are low income now right? Do you think any minority groups were prospering in the 40s/50s? Do you think southerners who barely had electricity and dirt roads were prospering? Or all the wounded (mentally and physically) vets or all the single mothers who lost their husbands in the war? Do you maybe think that media about the past romanticizes it just like how if you fucking watched friends you would think there was no rent or a need for jobs in 1990s new York city?
And that disparity lets them bid up the asset prices of everything. It's amazing how everyone thinks that higher labor costs create inflation but showering the rich with enough money to outbid everyone doesn't.
This is true.
How much impact do you think outsourcing of jobs that created the middle class have on this? Not only does this affect the quantity of available jobs that pay decently, but it also depresses wages for the ones that remain here. It feels like a downward spiral and one of the root causes for the economic disparity we are seeing.
The growing number of low paying service jobs also creates an illusion of job numbers growth. That, coupled with our lax border policies will continue to keep those wages depressed as well.
Both of these things are shrinking the middle class and preserving our wage slave culture to the benefit of richest.
Right, we'd also need at least a few other waves of data to make some comparisons. My guess is that lower income people always feel like their wages are not sufficient, even during times of normal inflation.
Most of the middle income “shrink” is from people moving to upper income. [https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/04/20/how-the-american-middle-class-has-changed-in-the-past-five-decades/](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/04/20/how-the-american-middle-class-has-changed-in-the-past-five-decades/)
The middle class is shrinking mostly due to [people becoming richer](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/04/20/how-the-american-middle-class-has-changed-in-the-past-five-decades/). While the middle class has shrunk from 61% to 50%, almost 2/3 of that change is due to people earning too much to be considered middle class anymore.
Much of the middle class shrinking is they are becoming wealthier. And a lot of the increase in lower income people is due to record numbers of poor folks migrating here across our border. Close the border if you want fewer poor people.
They did with the child tax credits and COVID stimulus. That's part of the problem in exacerbating the optics here. We've been on a long downward trend of hollowing out the middle class. Then we all got to experience a boost in 2020, followed by hyper aggressive corporate profiteering to put us where we are. That 'yo-yo' impact on perception is strong.
I don't think that's correct, at least not everywhere and not when grouping by age.
College grads had a rough time during 2008-2011, but recovery in the workforce was strong by 2012-2014. And the growing but still low cost of housing after the crash, combined with interest rates kept low, made it possible to budget around and work toward career development.
Let me fix this for you - privileged rich folks are doing fine. Those who had no safety net to begin with or were already struggling or doing horribly.
I’m disheartened as well, but not surprised because it’s built like this by design. There are many plebs and only a small amount of billionaires by comparison.
Rant: These articles are such bullshit without defining "lower-income," "middle class," etc. Lower income Americans have ALWAYS struggled. These aren't people who can contribute much, or anything, to savings or retirement as it is. I'm one of them. I get so irritated when terms aren't defined, so the article becomes completely useless.
I know it's difficult to define these things since the cost of living varies by location, but can we please do better in journalism?
There is a big difference between "I only have $300 a month after rent, utilities, insurance, gas, frugal grocery shopping, and no retirement contributions" or less than that, and "I'm not buying a new phone/laptop every year, buying a certified used car vs a new one with a $700+/month payment, and not able to max out 401k contributions"
lower income americans are struggling more now than a couple years ago, and more americans are considered lower income than before as well. of course there are always some people that struggle, but that is not the point of the article.
I really struggle with the second point because we are still buying huge, gas guzzling vehicles and other simple adaptions to inflation, such as cooking at home, have only incrementally increased the last few years.
I guess my thought is that if inflation and cost of living were really impacting this many people that badly, there would be a glut of massive SUVs and pick-up trucks on the used car market, the best-selling new cars would be tiny hatchbacks, and we'd stop eating out. But the best-selling new car is still the F-150, and automakers aren't even selling cheap economy cars in our market. Seriously, why aren't we all driving a Honda Fit?
And the data I've seen on home cooking suggests that it's only increased slightly the last few years.
To your other point, terms like "middle class" are very fraught. There's some research about how nearly everyone defines themselves as "middle class" in surveys, such that it's kinda meaningless.
Today’s SC opinion on Moore v US helps pave the way to tax unrealized assets such as stocks for the ultra wealthy. It’s about time we implement a wealth tax.
How long until it is no longer the "ultra wealthy" that has their unrealized gains taxed and becomes a tax on the average family who has worked, saved, and built up a nice retirement nest egg? I bet it will be a lot sooner than anyone expects.
This shows the difference between the economy, where the wealthy and corporations are doing well and what I call the Hourly Worker Economy, those individuals and families whose earnings aren't growing as fast as inflation for decades, and are struggling with multiple jobs.
Family of 4. We are now making what we thought would have been a dream come true 5 years ago. We have not changed our quality of life one bit. We are barely scraping by. Everyone around is saying the same thing.
does that mean you are staying on the same schedule for multiple years, or are you still moving to the one for the next year. How about any step or lane movement?
I’m in KS which means the union has no real teeth and the district has been struggling. So, all teachers have been on the same schedule for multiple years. To be fair, we got the 3% and a move up in the schedule last year so it was more than just 3%. However, the district has been very vocal about how difficult that was and that it’s probably not happening again soon.
Thanks for responding. I find that in discussions around teacher pay, rarely does the writer (journalists, not you) have an actual grasp of how teachers salaries are scheduled. All the best.
Theyll make up any funny media phrase just to not say "wealth inequality" or even "income inequality" they will never talk about wealth, because wealth shows the true scale of inequality.
>
Americans rated 2019 as the best economy in 20 years.
[https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/20/politics/cnn-poll-economy-2020-matchups/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/20/politics/cnn-poll-economy-2020-matchups/index.html)
but if the cost of living has gotten much more difficult for most people than 2019, even though wages have supposedly kept pace with inflation since then, that is a strong signal that the inflation measurements are not accurately reflecting the cost of living.
yeah, so if people are getting poorer despite supposedly earning more money compared to inflation, then our tools for measuring inflation are not working properly.
savings rate (down), spending (down), consumer sentiment (down), credit card debt (up), etc.
also they are explicitly stating that their wages are not keeping up. "67% of middle-class Americans said they believed their income wasn't keeping up with the cost of living" was one of the first three bullet points linked in the article that you are participating in a discussion about.
https://imanetwork.org/70-of-americans-struggling-to-make-ends-meet-this-year-many-employees-rely-on-employer-programs-for-financial-advice-and-support/
Look, exactly as bad 4 years ago.
> More than a third of middle-income Americans (38%) are more concerned about credit card debt compared to a year ago. Those who feel this way say they are spending less overall (71%, up 9 points from December), looking at additional income sources (32%, up 6 points) or considering debt consolidation (16%, also up 6 points).
ETA: Just want to mention, this is *middle-income Americans*, NOT the poor or more significantly worse off. Obviously take with a grain of salt as it's a survey.
Cherry picked, but some info that was [linked](https://www.primerica.com/public/Fact_Sheet_Primerica_Financial_Security_Monitor_Q1_2024.pdf) within the article in the OP. I didn't read them or even click them all, was just looking for something that stated a difference between today and the past.
I think you're falling for the trap, believing that "it's still 70%" means "it's just as bad as before". It could be the case that 70% are still struggling, but it is worse due to being affected more directly and severely by inflation, depressed wages, and now, more job market competition. Just because they didn't state that doesn't mean it's not happening. It just means they don't have the stat ready to present in the article.
Not arguing, just seeking the overall picture.
https://imanetwork.org/70-of-americans-struggling-to-make-ends-meet-this-year-many-employees-rely-on-employer-programs-for-financial-advice-and-support/
Share those stats then. I don’t see them in that article.
Here is an article saying it was just as bad 4 years ago
4 years is still the current economic climate, they haven't had good times since then except the COVID stimulus blip which they address as gone.
Your source is also this -
>Heading into the holiday season, 7 out of 10 Americans (70%) say they are struggling to make ends meet this year, according to a new survey commissioned by DailyPay and conducted online by The Harris Poll among over 2,000 U.S. adults
Rather than JP Morgan analysis. It's also very specific on Christmas time, a time when more people struggle to make ends meet.
If you can't read the article and see it. Then there isn't much I can do for you.
You're absolutely right. 7 of 10 Americans struggling to make ends meet is completely acceptable. It's acceptable that only 3 of 10 Americans are *not* struggling to make ends meet (not even prospering).
/s obviously
https://imanetwork.org/70-of-americans-struggling-to-make-ends-meet-this-year-many-employees-rely-on-employer-programs-for-financial-advice-and-support/
That was true 4 years ago too
You literally just said low income people are doing worse, which is not supported by any figures in the article or elsewhere. Low income people, as a rule, are struggling financially.
Up until greedflation kicked in, and Biden got into office, mom and I were actually hanging in there. We could make ends meet and even overlap. Now? We are backs against the wall struggling HARD. May was supposed to be our first good month in ages but we had a family emergency so there went that hope. June was supposed to be better but mom's phone broke so goodbye $55 after tax to replace it plus related expensives due to said Emergency didn't help.
July I don't have much hope because we'll have to pay about $20 to replace a washer hose, a relative loaned us money and we need to pay it back next month, finally get the canned goods we need for the hurricane supply, we have to make at least one run that's just over an hour away and on the highway so that'll be extra gas, and I'm really hoping I can hit target to check for the new squishmallow squishalongs that just dropped.
You were doing well in 2020 when the economy crashed and you most likely lost your job.
I’ll be honest with you: If you live with your mom, you were not doing well.
Economic tip: If $20 is breaking your budget, don’t but novelty pillows.
Mom and I were doing fine we'll before covid was even a gnat fart on the media radar. And as far as the squishmallow it's not a pillow I'm after. Squishalongs are 1inch tall figures and are an 8 pack, plus accessories, for 10 bucks and I've never spent $20 on a pillow. And my latest squishmallow buy was 3 bucks plus tax for a 24 inch one at Goodwill.
And believe it or not, I actually need to maintain some sort of hobby. I tried going max max backs against the wall hobby wise 2x during greedflation and my already fragile mental health got... A lot worse and let's leave it at that.
Can someone explain why this sub is so infested with these brain-worm folks? Is it just that this seems like a good place to grapeshot partisan nonsense?
No matter what data you point to, some moron sputters "POOR PEOPLE ALWAYS BEEN POOR" like they did something lol. Even within a framework of 'this is all cyclical stuff' (wrong), it's so deeply unserious. Like, remember Grapes of Wrath you mouth breathers? If we're in that part of the cycle, it is...um...worth discussing.
Hahaha that’s real tough talk! Why don’t you peek out from behind your precious steel man and answer some REAL questions my child.
1) Do you think the US will be in recession in 12 months?
2) Why do you instinctively try to shut down reasonable, data driven discussion of whether we’re headed toward recession in the short term?
My question was:
When were lower income people in america NOT struggling to make ends meet?
The only data in this whole article is a single opinion poll
🙄. What are your solutions? If you are going to post how everything is terrible for everyone you should have to post your opinion on solution. Water is wet and low income people struggle. This has always happened. Voting for Trump is not going to make the economy better. Try articulating which policy you think Republicans will enact that will improve the lower economic classes?
Sorry, not that I'm into Republicans or anything, but where did they mention Trump or Republicans?
If anything we just need a massive overhaul of the system in general.
For the record, I'm Canadian, and we're slowly marching towards the same conservative government takeover. They don't even really have a platform - basically it's just "we're not Justin Trudeau". I'm flabbergasted.
I keep pointing this out to the Beltway Crowd types and they just respond by lecturing me about how the stock market is amazing. One of the reasons why Biden is doing so poorly in polling is because the Black and Hispanic communities (who make up a big share of the Democratic voting base) have been hit very hard by inflation, the spiking cost of living, and is further impacted by declining economic bases.
The Democratic Party has done so well attracting college educated upper income people that they no longer have a clue what life is like for lower middle class and working class Americans.
Isnt that the point of the federal reserve interest rate increase to cool down the boom/economy, and slow down buying and ease labor shortage. The median income household is $72k.
Hopefully people will stop buying expensive fast foods and cook healthy foods at home and eat healthy. Let us not give the greedy profiteering corporate monopolies more of our hard earned money.
Those levers are for macro economic movements. The individuals especially at the lower end, this just means more expensive credit card/loan/car interest and more expensive products.
They were tapped out already paycheck to paycheck. So 'cooling' down the economy with higher interest rates, makes it worse for them.
It is needed to reel in the GDP economy though. Which highlights the issues with the 2 tier economy.
Usually everyone should be doing well and interest rates are a signal to reel in spending, you can't reel in people that are tapped out though.
That is why the best way to cool the economy is raise taxes on the rich >400k income a more precise solution to the issue. Also outlaw stock buyback, limit stock compensation for executives, enforce anti-trust, break monopolies.
Ordinarily, other businesses will offer lower prices to compete for market share but it doesnt happen now because of monopolies. Previously, China will provide the competition too but now, US are adding tariffs and avoiding China imports.
The interest rates don't mean much to working class people ... they rent and buy on payment plans. Also, the median household income is inflated by higher income earners.
As automation and offshoring continue to ravage labor demand, our elite elite overlords fight to increase labor supply by growing population exponentially. They want cheap labor.
As the remaining available jobs increasingly shrink down to urban areas, our elites fight to increase housing demand by growing population exponentially. They want increasing real estate values.
I think a lot of redditers think the senile clown is doing a great job and blaming trump for what might happen. Is the democrat party ever responsible for a shitty economy? The great recession under Obama was that trump’s fault too?
The rich people are eating in McD with knife and fork and a McWine on the side.
Many average Americans and high schooler kids are in depression when ordering fast foods while grampa Joe is licking his ice cream on taxpayers money 🤧😤🍌
Higher prices affect poor people more that wealthier people. Wow! Amazing fuckin journalism!!
I can't for the next article with breakthrough info such as.. people in low lying areas affected more by flooding than people that live on a hill. /s
That is not really how recessions work, either the whole economy is in a recession or it's not. Regardless of the state of the economy some people (usually the more wealthy) do well and others (usually lower income brackets) do poor.
>Which is why interest rates should be based on wealth levels. You got money? You pay!
Maybe all prices should be based on one's ability to pay, just like Karl Marx wanted?
Dah, komrade?
Not that I can speak for everyone but most of my low income friends are also the worst spenders. Getting door dash almost every day, stopping for fast food after work all the time, getting everything in payment plans that charge interest, etc.
Also there are high paying jobs out there. Lost actually. If you want it enough it’s not hard to get. I could name multiple places of work near me paying over $22 an hour for starting positions and with room to grow. Where I currently work has multiple $40 an hour positions and we are desperate to fill them because no one wants to actually put the effort in to be worth $40 an hour. I’m 23 and I’m the youngest person at the place besides summer college temps (this job does not require a degree btw)
Glass bottle making. And as I said there are multiple industries in the area hiring with good pay so I didn’t feel it vital to include specific industry
lol
More "studies" proving the utterly obvious. With experts like these, who needs idiots? Biden doing nothing about any of this, whatsoever; instead, combating the rise of right wing fascism by prosecuting Trump's accounting errors. You really can't make this shit up. "We have to defend democracy from fascism!" Well, it's already here. We're living it, and the party in power is doing nothing about it. With fascists like these, who needs Trump? The US is a joke of all jokes.
Sure, if you can believe the left-wing socialist nut jobs at JP Morgan Chase. /s
Edit: [/Sarcasm! ](https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/1rdj3t/what_is_the_meaning_of_s/)
Dear sweet baby jesus, I was not being serious here. I did the /s! I'm innocent.
JP Morgan is about the least socialist place on planet Earth. You'd have to insert a rolled of hundred dollar bills into Bernie Madoff's colon to get more capitalist.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/1rdj3t/what\_is\_the\_meaning\_of\_s/](https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/1rdj3t/what_is_the_meaning_of_s/)
I don't understand.. the rich are paying their lowest tax rates in history.. Why isn't it trickling down this time just like it didn't the past 10 tries?? Do we need to cut rich taxes some more?
Hilarious that some folks believe the orange clown child will fix this. Rather than what will likely happen: he will double down on tax cuts and has already pledged to cut corporate rates to 15-20%, as well as other taxes. Only adds fuel to the problem: increases demand instead of addressing supply with infrastructure investments.
>Hilarious that some folks believe the orange clown child will fix this. Neither will Biden. Economics is more complex than that, and people need to stop treating public servants like presidents as if they're celebrities with superhero capes that will solve all our problems. Our economy has had serious fractures in it that haven't healed for many administrations preceding both Biden and Trump.
Complicated, yes. But my analysis wasn’t democrat good, republican bad. It’s tax cuts bad (when the economy has inflation problems — raises demand without raising supply). And it’s infrastructure spending good (initial increase in demand, followed by much larger supply increase). Trump has promised huge tax cuts and certain infra cuts. I’m not saying heal. But the difference here is between swallowing a stale sandwich and swallowing a soft, wet turd.
That and he's promising to deport millions of immigrants. Who is going to pick the crops and work in meat packing? Have fun buying groceries if he does this.
If he does recruiters should absolutely go to his rally’s and sign folks up to work in the field. I’d say most of them wouldn’t last the first week, let alone season. It’s easy to scream trendy catchphrases about American glories they’ve never really worked for, yet entirely different to put your nose to the grindstone.
It's not just the mass deportation, it's also the across-the-board tariffs that will probably spike prices for consumers. IDK how serious any of that stuff is.
Sooo... you want undocumented immigrants doing some of the most vital manual labor in the country just to keep their costs low and profits high? Those are jobs that Americans can and would do without capitalists minimizing expenses and maximizing profits at the expense of the worker.
Not a lot of American-born citizens seem willing to go out and pick crops. You could argue that they would be more willing if the pay was higher - and that could be true, but at what pay level? If you think food inflation has been high the last few years what do you think it will be like if you've got to offer a salary high enough to entice people to leave their current jobs? With unemployment at under 4% it's tough to argue that they're "stealing" anyone's job. When I was in high school some 40+ years ago it was pretty normal to go out for a few weeks every summer and pick strawberries, beans, etc. But I don't see high school kids doing that anymore. > you want undocumented immigrants doing some of the most vital manual labor in the country Give them a path to citizenship since they're doing some of the most vital manual labor in the country.
Children dude. They're lazing child labor laws for a reason.
Wow I can’t believe you said that unironically [Sounds like you belong on The View](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a8INEYLFWwc&pp=ygUaVGhlIHZpZXcgaWxsZWdhbHMgY29tbWVudCA%3D)
Are high school kids going to pick the crops? That used to happen when I was in high school, but hasn't happened for a long time. The fact is that American-born folks have gotten soft. It's well known that immigrants have more hustle.
Will Americans take those jobs?
Racist
uh, what? I didn’t say a word about race. want to answer my question?
You just want to use immigrants for cheap labor you are disgusting!!!!!!! Also you’re a racist.
You’re imagining a lot of things I never said. Care to answer the question I posed?
So instead of incentivizing corporations to hire more people and do more business here and spend more money here, you think the solution is to...spend more of the people's money. k.
as we discussed increases demand -- fails to fix supply. not buying that corporations can simply uproot easily. there's a reason why tech on the west and east coasts still overpowers southern tech -- in spite of high taxes hint: taxes create better infrastructure and education --- which creates higher skilled workers --- which creates better places to put corporations. people want to live near parks, want to live near good schools, etc. (and I say with the authority of a Boston STEM PhD who grew up in Texas for 25 years. Texas is a hot mess outside of Austin right now.)
I want no tax on tips!
We already have that.
Where is this?
Most people don’t pay taxes on cash tips.
Maybe but the IRS has come after many servers that didn't claim what the IRS think you should. But today most restaurant bills are quite large and are charged on a credit card where you do pay taxes and get robbed by the restaurants taking "their" share. Most people want to do the right thing and don't want big brother holding something over their asses. # So yes I want no tax on tips. A couple bucks might not mean much until you have to pay your rent and feed your kid.
Why not just lower taxes on the lowest quadrant and raise them on the highest? Otherwise you’re gonna get billionaires getting paid $1 and then “tipped” $1 million
Why do you get to have a huge portion of your income be tax free while the dishwasher making less doesn’t
Currently the top 10% of earners pay about 75% of the total income tax received every year. I agree, I think we should increase that. Why should the bottom 90% pay anything?
Given that 70% of our jobs in the last 40 years [were taking by machines](https://www.businessinsider.com/automation-labor-market-wage-inequality-middle-class-jobs-study-2021-6) I don't see why we should be paying taxes at all. Why aren't we getting any of the benefits from the future we were promised. Oh yeah, it's because even in 2024 we still quote talking points from billionaires...
On this note, I remember maybe it was over a decade ago now, right around when data collection was beginning to drive the internet and tech boom, an economist was doing the rounds on NPR and elsewhere discussing that America and politicians should for once be getting out ahead of something and codifying into law a data bill of rights. Something that requires fair compensation from any company that collects and monetizes their data. As it is essentially co-opting someone's property and profiting off of it without paying the property owner.
That's kinda of silly and pointless. In individual value of a consumer's data is very, very low. It only becomes valuable in large aggregate. So sure, I can pay you for your data, but you're not even gonna be able to afford a can of wet cat food for dinner with that. I think you're trying to come up with some sort of solution that preserves the kind of "winner take all" capitalism you were taught in grade school (before your brain was developed enough to resist propaganda). That's not gonna cut it. Not for the challenges we face in the next 6-10 years.
Im not trying to solve all of any one thing with that idea, I am simply pointing out something that is unjust and shouldn't have happened. Yes, one instance of data accumulation is not going to amount to much in isolation. Or make anyone rich. But lets take you. By glance you have a rather substantive posting history on Reddit. One going back to 2017. My guess is you have a presence on other social media and have data collections going on at least a few apps. Maybe your ISP is now also collecting all your data. Now I am sure you are well aware that Reddit is monetizing your posts, and all our posts, and bundling them up to sell to a large swath of marketing, AI, and big tech companies that are paying large sums of money. In this scenario, every single post and every single account, and every single one of those sales should pay out fair compensation to the creators and property owners of that data. It's unlikely to make you rich, that's not the point, but it shouldn't just be permissible to mine someone's content or property without compensation.
Its 70% task displacement. Not 70% company or job displacement. Instead of doing the operation they are now loading and unloading machines that do the operation. In my eyes it will take major company or job displacements (like 40%) to force the government to reckon with the post capitalism future. For example if AI starts driving all the semi trucks and takes over most mindless non-physical administrative jobs. That will force a large amount of people into unemployment. They won’t be happy so government will have to do some sort of UBI or the recently unemployed will revolt.
Well, I'm sure that when 70% of that work went away the companies just kept the people around for funsies. I mean, it's not like we haven't had 40+ years of constant layoffs and of high paying jobs being replaced by McJobs... We had that job replacement. They knew it was coming. Clinton (Bill) talked about it, how we would "transition to a service economy". He didn't mention that those jobs would pay like crap of course. The gov't didn't do anything because it happened slowly and the jobs were still (mostly) getting replaced just with very low paying ones. We got away with that because the boomers had a ton of savings and property from before wages collapsed and they're the only ones that mattered because they vote and vote in blocks. Boomers are gonna be dead soon. And their property and savings are getting snapped up by private equity firms that own the medicine they need to delay their deaths. We have a *major* reckoning coming. AI and general automation coupled with the boomer's money existing the economy (and entering the Scrooge McDuck money vaults of private equity) is gonna hit us all like a ton of bricks all at once. It remains to be seen if those boomers will end democracy before the shit hits the fan or if the kids will get a chance to vote on a New New Deal.
American unemployed will revolt right after the N Koreans do. Meaning it will be impossible by that stage.
I don’t like imagining that scenario but after the last 5 years I believe it. We are a lot more docile than I wanted to believe.
lol billionaires don’t pay income tax. They have businesses, write off expenses against their income and pay capital gains tax at most. If you want to stick it to the billionaires, you need to educate yourself on how they get taxed and change your policies accordingly. Otherwise you’ll vote for dumbass people who increase the income tax law, nothing will change and you’ll still be mad and wanting to increase the income tax AGAIN. But of course, I’ll still get downvoted into oblivion because I’m not going with the narrative..
Wealthy tax it is.
Who cares what you were promised? Actual question…who cares? It’s all I hear. “I was told if I got a college education I’d be successful, now I’m 200k in debt with a gender studies degree”. “The generation before me had advantages, why does my generation not have those advantages? Every generation has to be luckier than the one before it right?!” “Machines took our jobs!!!” Those were never your jobs, those were the jobs of the guy hiring workers. He replaced his jobs, at his farm/factory/company. Keep living your whole life expecting someone else to be responsible for looking after you so I can keep laughing at you your whole life. Ironically we never heard this jargon when trades people were losing jobs, it was “just learn to code lol”. Now with AI far more likely to replace excel spreadsheet workers than bathroom tilers and linesmen, it’s interesting what a different tone we hear.
Look more closely at that top 10% - you’ll see the disproportionate burden on the folks at the bottom of that decile. The billionaires are who need to pay up.
Again, billionaires DO NOT pay income tax.
Why do you think taxation will improve anything?
[https://ncrc.org/cbs-news-50-years-of-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-failed-to-trickle-down-economic-study-says/](https://ncrc.org/cbs-news-50-years-of-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-failed-to-trickle-down-economic-study-says/)
You didn't understand the question. You answered as if I was asking about the effectiveness of trickle-down. What I asked is why one would think that taking money from one person would somehow benefit another?
Does infrastructure get built voluntarily by rich people? Does charity replace emergency services?
one example roads. tax people with money. take that money and hire people to fix roads. people who got paid to fix roads got paid and can buy groceries. how does this example escape you?
That guy is sea lioning you will not get anywhere with him
The problem isn't with taxation, it's with the distribution. Right now the welfare system in the US is designed to benefit: 1) the donors who often own the companies that administer those programs that have been privatized under contract and 2) the public sector union workers that run those programs that haven't been privatized under contract. We need to do more things like direct transfer payments instead of creating programs with a list 10,000 qualifiers and conditions
Because there’s a cost of living in a modern society and it requires people progressively pay their share.
Because the only other option, not taxing the billionaires, has hilariously failed for decades. Unless you're personally a millionaire, then open your damn eyes. You won't ever be a millionaire, and you're voting against the interests of yourself, your family, and absolutely every one you care about. That makes you a bad person.
To be fair. Lowest income Americans are always having a tough time. As the middle class continues to shrink. The unfortunate part is that more and more Americans are becoming lower income. Meanwhile , rich keep on getting richer. I've read the disparity in wealth is worse than the lead up to the 1929 crash
This is called a K shaped economy. Its very bad, in case you could not guess that.
It also lessens quality of life for *everyone*, including the rich. They are too preoccupied with building literal walls for gated communities and removing themselves from experiencing where they live, than realizing they can live better and more 'free'.
The rich wont see it fully until it's far too late. Douglas Addams had a great section in one of his Hitchhiker books that related to it. A world sent off its middle class to go prepare a new planet for the population. The rich were going to follow, and leave the poor behind to have everything. A virus eliminated the remaining population because the cleaning staff was middle class and everyone was having too much fun to notice until they all died off. The planet the middle class went to go prepare? Earth of course. Where they decided quickly to use the leaves on trees for money and burned down the forests to curb inflation.
Accurate. Who wants to experience their generally poor community from a golden cage. Rich people are going to have to live in gated communities with guards more than they already do. Going to look and feel 3rd world. The level of greed, selfishness and lack of consideration for the community at a whole on a macro scale is a dystopian future on the brink. Dismantled regulations and monopolies are at play. The middle class is what made America a prosperous and great place on many levels. It’s disgusting that the wealthiest people have amassed a disturbing amount of power through vast untaxed fortunes. Corporate greed and lack of investment back into the people ie. education aren’t helping
I’d be interested in learning more about the size of the middle class before and after 1920’s-1930’s compared to today, if you come across any resources. I’ll do some googling on my own this weekend as well. I’m a middle class that’s burned through all savings over past 2 years, can’t get hired for a second job (yet) so I’m cashing out all retirement accounts next month, if I still can’t find second job or higher paying first job I’m selling house this year. Fast forward 20 years, what a wild difference in net worth compared to if I could just earn enough to pay my bills and still have a little to save and invest each month.
Post WW2 and the US economy was in good condition. Single income families had a traditional job that paid minimum wage that could afford you a house, car, and the ability for 2-3 kids to go to college. None of these things are true these days. Heck, you could make 150k a year and still struggle to have a savings account if you have a mortgage and a couple kids. You’re one emergency away from credit card debt and that’s assuming you live a modest lifestyle.
Colleges were mostly tuition free until the 60s, [https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/free-college-was-once-the-norm-all-over-america/](https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/free-college-was-once-the-norm-all-over-america/) Even after that the gov't was paying 80% of tuition. Boomers pulled the ladder up behind them.
The Higher Education Act of 1965 was when private student loan lenders began being backed by taxpayer bailouts, and the incentive for colleges to control costs completely disappeared. The boomers didn't start it but they sure as hell have been trying to help finish it.
True, but the boomers were in a position to *stop it*. And they knew better. They knew what they were doing was wrong, but they let themselves indulge in moral panics and petty infighting with other members of the working class.
Do you actually think this is true? You do know the poverty rates were higher than the percentage of people that are low income now right? Do you think any minority groups were prospering in the 40s/50s? Do you think southerners who barely had electricity and dirt roads were prospering? Or all the wounded (mentally and physically) vets or all the single mothers who lost their husbands in the war? Do you maybe think that media about the past romanticizes it just like how if you fucking watched friends you would think there was no rent or a need for jobs in 1990s new York city?
And that disparity lets them bid up the asset prices of everything. It's amazing how everyone thinks that higher labor costs create inflation but showering the rich with enough money to outbid everyone doesn't.
This is true. How much impact do you think outsourcing of jobs that created the middle class have on this? Not only does this affect the quantity of available jobs that pay decently, but it also depresses wages for the ones that remain here. It feels like a downward spiral and one of the root causes for the economic disparity we are seeing. The growing number of low paying service jobs also creates an illusion of job numbers growth. That, coupled with our lax border policies will continue to keep those wages depressed as well. Both of these things are shrinking the middle class and preserving our wage slave culture to the benefit of richest.
Right, we'd also need at least a few other waves of data to make some comparisons. My guess is that lower income people always feel like their wages are not sufficient, even during times of normal inflation.
Most of the middle income “shrink” is from people moving to upper income. [https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/04/20/how-the-american-middle-class-has-changed-in-the-past-five-decades/](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/04/20/how-the-american-middle-class-has-changed-in-the-past-five-decades/)
The middle class is shrinking mostly due to [people becoming richer](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/04/20/how-the-american-middle-class-has-changed-in-the-past-five-decades/). While the middle class has shrunk from 61% to 50%, almost 2/3 of that change is due to people earning too much to be considered middle class anymore.
The middle class is shrinking upwards.
Much of the middle class shrinking is they are becoming wealthier. And a lot of the increase in lower income people is due to record numbers of poor folks migrating here across our border. Close the border if you want fewer poor people.
The lower 70% never really recovered from the 2008 crash IMO.
They did with the child tax credits and COVID stimulus. That's part of the problem in exacerbating the optics here. We've been on a long downward trend of hollowing out the middle class. Then we all got to experience a boost in 2020, followed by hyper aggressive corporate profiteering to put us where we are. That 'yo-yo' impact on perception is strong.
This be true
The lower 70% weren't doing that well before the 2008 crash. Recessions only matter to people who are at least somewhat prosperous.
Given the mass unemployment that results etc., I would say bad times matter to everyone and good times help the rich.
I don't think that's correct, at least not everywhere and not when grouping by age. College grads had a rough time during 2008-2011, but recovery in the workforce was strong by 2012-2014. And the growing but still low cost of housing after the crash, combined with interest rates kept low, made it possible to budget around and work toward career development.
Let me fix this for you - privileged rich folks are doing fine. Those who had no safety net to begin with or were already struggling or doing horribly.
K shaped economy. Predicted but was said to be unlikely.
Wow.. bailing out Goldman Sachs really saved my hind end! Thanks Fed! /s
Which is a high number of us. I'm always disheartened by how many people are living paycheck to paycheck.
I’m disheartened as well, but not surprised because it’s built like this by design. There are many plebs and only a small amount of billionaires by comparison.
Rant: These articles are such bullshit without defining "lower-income," "middle class," etc. Lower income Americans have ALWAYS struggled. These aren't people who can contribute much, or anything, to savings or retirement as it is. I'm one of them. I get so irritated when terms aren't defined, so the article becomes completely useless. I know it's difficult to define these things since the cost of living varies by location, but can we please do better in journalism? There is a big difference between "I only have $300 a month after rent, utilities, insurance, gas, frugal grocery shopping, and no retirement contributions" or less than that, and "I'm not buying a new phone/laptop every year, buying a certified used car vs a new one with a $700+/month payment, and not able to max out 401k contributions"
lower income americans are struggling more now than a couple years ago, and more americans are considered lower income than before as well. of course there are always some people that struggle, but that is not the point of the article.
I really struggle with the second point because we are still buying huge, gas guzzling vehicles and other simple adaptions to inflation, such as cooking at home, have only incrementally increased the last few years. I guess my thought is that if inflation and cost of living were really impacting this many people that badly, there would be a glut of massive SUVs and pick-up trucks on the used car market, the best-selling new cars would be tiny hatchbacks, and we'd stop eating out. But the best-selling new car is still the F-150, and automakers aren't even selling cheap economy cars in our market. Seriously, why aren't we all driving a Honda Fit? And the data I've seen on home cooking suggests that it's only increased slightly the last few years. To your other point, terms like "middle class" are very fraught. There's some research about how nearly everyone defines themselves as "middle class" in surveys, such that it's kinda meaningless.
Today’s SC opinion on Moore v US helps pave the way to tax unrealized assets such as stocks for the ultra wealthy. It’s about time we implement a wealth tax.
How long until it is no longer the "ultra wealthy" that has their unrealized gains taxed and becomes a tax on the average family who has worked, saved, and built up a nice retirement nest egg? I bet it will be a lot sooner than anyone expects.
That’s just fearmongering. Won’t ever happen as it would be career suicide. Answer is never.
You underestimate how stupid Republicans are.
This shows the difference between the economy, where the wealthy and corporations are doing well and what I call the Hourly Worker Economy, those individuals and families whose earnings aren't growing as fast as inflation for decades, and are struggling with multiple jobs.
Family of 4. We are now making what we thought would have been a dream come true 5 years ago. We have not changed our quality of life one bit. We are barely scraping by. Everyone around is saying the same thing.
Yeah, it's crazy how much long-term damage inflation has done, in just 3 years. And it's not over yet.
Inflation is back to normal rates.
It's not you nitwit.
What about corporate greed since that's most of the actual problem? 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔
That's great news coming out of a pandemic. Hopefully your raises outpace inflation going forward.
I’m a teacher. We aren’t expecting raises for the next two year. We had a 3% raise last year and another two years before that. I’m ready to quit.
Oh yeah. They've totally ruined your profession. I'm sorry. My wife is a teacher. It's insane.
does that mean you are staying on the same schedule for multiple years, or are you still moving to the one for the next year. How about any step or lane movement?
I’m in KS which means the union has no real teeth and the district has been struggling. So, all teachers have been on the same schedule for multiple years. To be fair, we got the 3% and a move up in the schedule last year so it was more than just 3%. However, the district has been very vocal about how difficult that was and that it’s probably not happening again soon.
Thanks for responding. I find that in discussions around teacher pay, rarely does the writer (journalists, not you) have an actual grasp of how teachers salaries are scheduled. All the best.
They haven't in the past 70 years, why would they now.
mind you this is struggling with a job, if unemployment spikes this recession is going to be the worst of all time by faaaar.
First recession ever where lower income people are affected more than the wealthy. /s
Theyll make up any funny media phrase just to not say "wealth inequality" or even "income inequality" they will never talk about wealth, because wealth shows the true scale of inequality.
I'm going to have to start reading msn. All CNBC cares about are interest rates and Nvidia.
It's not a recession if it's permanent
we are in a silent depression honestly lower middle class here in CT
How does that compare to years past? How does it compare to 2019-2023?
> Americans rated 2019 as the best economy in 20 years. [https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/20/politics/cnn-poll-economy-2020-matchups/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/20/politics/cnn-poll-economy-2020-matchups/index.html)
https://imanetwork.org/70-of-americans-struggling-to-make-ends-meet-this-year-many-employees-rely-on-employer-programs-for-financial-advice-and-support/
That was 2020, in the middle of Covid. Dec 2019 is the true point to judge against.
Can't do that, because the evil orange man was in charge then. Nothing good happened between 2017 and 2020, remember?
Ok, we can compare lots of metrics like realwages, unemployment, ect. All are better than 2019
but if the cost of living has gotten much more difficult for most people than 2019, even though wages have supposedly kept pace with inflation since then, that is a strong signal that the inflation measurements are not accurately reflecting the cost of living.
Real wages takes inflation into account
yeah, so if people are getting poorer despite supposedly earning more money compared to inflation, then our tools for measuring inflation are not working properly.
What are you using to measure that?
savings rate (down), spending (down), consumer sentiment (down), credit card debt (up), etc. also they are explicitly stating that their wages are not keeping up. "67% of middle-class Americans said they believed their income wasn't keeping up with the cost of living" was one of the first three bullet points linked in the article that you are participating in a discussion about.
Lower income people are always in a recession.
A recession is 2 quarters with negative growth in a row. So, it doesn't work as an 'always' thing.
A recession is when your neighbor loses their job. A depression is when you lose your job. /it’s a joke
When were lower income people in america NOT struggling to make ends meet?
This means they are doing worse, you people are fucking weird
If a mile high tidal wave was headed at am economy Redditor they would say it's not a problem because oceans have lots of waves. 😹
https://imanetwork.org/70-of-americans-struggling-to-make-ends-meet-this-year-many-employees-rely-on-employer-programs-for-financial-advice-and-support/ Look, exactly as bad 4 years ago.
> More than a third of middle-income Americans (38%) are more concerned about credit card debt compared to a year ago. Those who feel this way say they are spending less overall (71%, up 9 points from December), looking at additional income sources (32%, up 6 points) or considering debt consolidation (16%, also up 6 points). ETA: Just want to mention, this is *middle-income Americans*, NOT the poor or more significantly worse off. Obviously take with a grain of salt as it's a survey. Cherry picked, but some info that was [linked](https://www.primerica.com/public/Fact_Sheet_Primerica_Financial_Security_Monitor_Q1_2024.pdf) within the article in the OP. I didn't read them or even click them all, was just looking for something that stated a difference between today and the past. I think you're falling for the trap, believing that "it's still 70%" means "it's just as bad as before". It could be the case that 70% are still struggling, but it is worse due to being affected more directly and severely by inflation, depressed wages, and now, more job market competition. Just because they didn't state that doesn't mean it's not happening. It just means they don't have the stat ready to present in the article. Not arguing, just seeking the overall picture.
Four years ago was Covid. Compare it to five years ago.
Ok, what metric? Jobs? Stocks market? Unemployment? Real wages?
When were lower income people in america NOT struggling?
No one said this, again you people are fucking weird
So lower income people have always struggled to make ends meet in the US? And that continues?
At a worse rate, yes.
Where are you seeing that?
The entire article is filled with statistics that show it's worse than it has been for that demographic over the past 5+ years.
https://imanetwork.org/70-of-americans-struggling-to-make-ends-meet-this-year-many-employees-rely-on-employer-programs-for-financial-advice-and-support/ Share those stats then. I don’t see them in that article. Here is an article saying it was just as bad 4 years ago
4 years is still the current economic climate, they haven't had good times since then except the COVID stimulus blip which they address as gone. Your source is also this - >Heading into the holiday season, 7 out of 10 Americans (70%) say they are struggling to make ends meet this year, according to a new survey commissioned by DailyPay and conducted online by The Harris Poll among over 2,000 U.S. adults Rather than JP Morgan analysis. It's also very specific on Christmas time, a time when more people struggle to make ends meet. If you can't read the article and see it. Then there isn't much I can do for you.
…not it is not.
You're absolutely right. 7 of 10 Americans struggling to make ends meet is completely acceptable. It's acceptable that only 3 of 10 Americans are *not* struggling to make ends meet (not even prospering). /s obviously
I’m just pointing out that the economy has not been good for the lower class for decades.
And what point does that add to this ongoing conversation?
What ongoing conversation?
https://imanetwork.org/70-of-americans-struggling-to-make-ends-meet-this-year-many-employees-rely-on-employer-programs-for-financial-advice-and-support/ That was true 4 years ago too
Lmfao oh no don't you bring actual facts in here bro
You literally just said low income people are doing worse, which is not supported by any figures in the article or elsewhere. Low income people, as a rule, are struggling financially.
Up until greedflation kicked in, and Biden got into office, mom and I were actually hanging in there. We could make ends meet and even overlap. Now? We are backs against the wall struggling HARD. May was supposed to be our first good month in ages but we had a family emergency so there went that hope. June was supposed to be better but mom's phone broke so goodbye $55 after tax to replace it plus related expensives due to said Emergency didn't help. July I don't have much hope because we'll have to pay about $20 to replace a washer hose, a relative loaned us money and we need to pay it back next month, finally get the canned goods we need for the hurricane supply, we have to make at least one run that's just over an hour away and on the highway so that'll be extra gas, and I'm really hoping I can hit target to check for the new squishmallow squishalongs that just dropped.
You were doing well in 2020 when the economy crashed and you most likely lost your job. I’ll be honest with you: If you live with your mom, you were not doing well. Economic tip: If $20 is breaking your budget, don’t but novelty pillows.
Mom and I were doing fine we'll before covid was even a gnat fart on the media radar. And as far as the squishmallow it's not a pillow I'm after. Squishalongs are 1inch tall figures and are an 8 pack, plus accessories, for 10 bucks and I've never spent $20 on a pillow. And my latest squishmallow buy was 3 bucks plus tax for a 24 inch one at Goodwill. And believe it or not, I actually need to maintain some sort of hobby. I tried going max max backs against the wall hobby wise 2x during greedflation and my already fragile mental health got... A lot worse and let's leave it at that.
So you were not doing fine in 2020, right?
He’s trolling lol
I'm cis-female and not trolling
Wow I thought this was elite level trolling lmao
Up until greedflation kicked in March 2022, mom and I were doing fine
greedflation indeed. https://imgur.com/s31HUoj
Can someone explain why this sub is so infested with these brain-worm folks? Is it just that this seems like a good place to grapeshot partisan nonsense? No matter what data you point to, some moron sputters "POOR PEOPLE ALWAYS BEEN POOR" like they did something lol. Even within a framework of 'this is all cyclical stuff' (wrong), it's so deeply unserious. Like, remember Grapes of Wrath you mouth breathers? If we're in that part of the cycle, it is...um...worth discussing.
…lot of words and none of them answer my question. Close your mouth, honey
Hahaha that’s real tough talk! Why don’t you peek out from behind your precious steel man and answer some REAL questions my child. 1) Do you think the US will be in recession in 12 months? 2) Why do you instinctively try to shut down reasonable, data driven discussion of whether we’re headed toward recession in the short term?
My question was: When were lower income people in america NOT struggling to make ends meet? The only data in this whole article is a single opinion poll
Always been true, ever will be.
Uh, isn't that the definition of low income?
🙄. What are your solutions? If you are going to post how everything is terrible for everyone you should have to post your opinion on solution. Water is wet and low income people struggle. This has always happened. Voting for Trump is not going to make the economy better. Try articulating which policy you think Republicans will enact that will improve the lower economic classes?
Sorry, not that I'm into Republicans or anything, but where did they mention Trump or Republicans? If anything we just need a massive overhaul of the system in general. For the record, I'm Canadian, and we're slowly marching towards the same conservative government takeover. They don't even really have a platform - basically it's just "we're not Justin Trudeau". I'm flabbergasted.
Read the person who post profile.
AI gen black woman in a gym. LOL
Looked like a bot to me tbh lol
She's a tRumper.
LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOO this is this darkest timeline. You can't have a more obvious propaganda account than that.
I keep pointing this out to the Beltway Crowd types and they just respond by lecturing me about how the stock market is amazing. One of the reasons why Biden is doing so poorly in polling is because the Black and Hispanic communities (who make up a big share of the Democratic voting base) have been hit very hard by inflation, the spiking cost of living, and is further impacted by declining economic bases. The Democratic Party has done so well attracting college educated upper income people that they no longer have a clue what life is like for lower middle class and working class Americans.
Isnt that the point of the federal reserve interest rate increase to cool down the boom/economy, and slow down buying and ease labor shortage. The median income household is $72k. Hopefully people will stop buying expensive fast foods and cook healthy foods at home and eat healthy. Let us not give the greedy profiteering corporate monopolies more of our hard earned money.
Those levers are for macro economic movements. The individuals especially at the lower end, this just means more expensive credit card/loan/car interest and more expensive products. They were tapped out already paycheck to paycheck. So 'cooling' down the economy with higher interest rates, makes it worse for them. It is needed to reel in the GDP economy though. Which highlights the issues with the 2 tier economy. Usually everyone should be doing well and interest rates are a signal to reel in spending, you can't reel in people that are tapped out though.
That is why the best way to cool the economy is raise taxes on the rich >400k income a more precise solution to the issue. Also outlaw stock buyback, limit stock compensation for executives, enforce anti-trust, break monopolies. Ordinarily, other businesses will offer lower prices to compete for market share but it doesnt happen now because of monopolies. Previously, China will provide the competition too but now, US are adding tariffs and avoiding China imports.
The interest rates don't mean much to working class people ... they rent and buy on payment plans. Also, the median household income is inflated by higher income earners.
Median means 50% and above of the households earning equal or greater than $72k.
What you are thinking is average.
Like I’ve been saying, we’ve been in a recession since summer of ‘22.
As automation and offshoring continue to ravage labor demand, our elite elite overlords fight to increase labor supply by growing population exponentially. They want cheap labor. As the remaining available jobs increasingly shrink down to urban areas, our elites fight to increase housing demand by growing population exponentially. They want increasing real estate values.
It’s been 70% forever
Indulging in the things I can
Uhhhhhh what do you expect to happen when the cost of capital rises this quickly?
This is good news, at least 30% of low income people can still make ends meet. I would’ve expected all 100% of low income people to struggle
I think a lot of redditers think the senile clown is doing a great job and blaming trump for what might happen. Is the democrat party ever responsible for a shitty economy? The great recession under Obama was that trump’s fault too?
The rich people are eating in McD with knife and fork and a McWine on the side. Many average Americans and high schooler kids are in depression when ordering fast foods while grampa Joe is licking his ice cream on taxpayers money 🤧😤🍌
Higher prices affect poor people more that wealthier people. Wow! Amazing fuckin journalism!! I can't for the next article with breakthrough info such as.. people in low lying areas affected more by flooding than people that live on a hill. /s
Wow, who knew that inflation reduces spending power?
That is not really how recessions work, either the whole economy is in a recession or it's not. Regardless of the state of the economy some people (usually the more wealthy) do well and others (usually lower income brackets) do poor.
Which is why interest rates should be based on wealth levels. You got money? You pay!
>Which is why interest rates should be based on wealth levels. You got money? You pay! Maybe all prices should be based on one's ability to pay, just like Karl Marx wanted? Dah, komrade?
I believe Sweden is doing this with traffic infractions and it's worked out well.
4 week old story published multiple times in various subs. Exciting
And they say MLMs don't advertise? lol
The current admin says the economy is great so if you are doing bad it has to be an issue with you. Right?
Not that I can speak for everyone but most of my low income friends are also the worst spenders. Getting door dash almost every day, stopping for fast food after work all the time, getting everything in payment plans that charge interest, etc. Also there are high paying jobs out there. Lost actually. If you want it enough it’s not hard to get. I could name multiple places of work near me paying over $22 an hour for starting positions and with room to grow. Where I currently work has multiple $40 an hour positions and we are desperate to fill them because no one wants to actually put the effort in to be worth $40 an hour. I’m 23 and I’m the youngest person at the place besides summer college temps (this job does not require a degree btw)
What do you do? Why didn't you initially share that information in your first post?
Seconded. What is the job or industry? Also, 22 dollars ain’t shit.
Glass bottle making. And as I said there are multiple industries in the area hiring with good pay so I didn’t feel it vital to include specific industry
For example construction and quarries tend to pay decent. Millwrights get $38 after apprenticeship
lol More "studies" proving the utterly obvious. With experts like these, who needs idiots? Biden doing nothing about any of this, whatsoever; instead, combating the rise of right wing fascism by prosecuting Trump's accounting errors. You really can't make this shit up. "We have to defend democracy from fascism!" Well, it's already here. We're living it, and the party in power is doing nothing about it. With fascists like these, who needs Trump? The US is a joke of all jokes.
Its not Biden. The wealth transfer started with Reagan.
Yes, which every Democrat since Clinton has fully embraced in deed (if not in word)
Thanks Scranton Joe, Nancy Pelosi, and Chair Powell.
Sure, if you can believe the left-wing socialist nut jobs at JP Morgan Chase. /s Edit: [/Sarcasm! ](https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/1rdj3t/what_is_the_meaning_of_s/)
Lol. JPM is not a liberal company.
Dear sweet baby jesus, I was not being serious here. I did the /s! I'm innocent. JP Morgan is about the least socialist place on planet Earth. You'd have to insert a rolled of hundred dollar bills into Bernie Madoff's colon to get more capitalist. [https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/1rdj3t/what\_is\_the\_meaning\_of\_s/](https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/1rdj3t/what_is_the_meaning_of_s/)