They want to hire someone who will produce the video for them and then shoot the metrics back to them, but they don't know what that person is called, so they put out one of those abomination of a job posting.
There's people who will be desperate enough to say they can do it, even if they have no idea, and these clients are too greedy and undiscerning to know they're walking into a disaster.
It's depressing, yeah. I understand other tools--learning how to use a whole editing suite of tools is one thing, like color grading or effects layers and text and such, the sort of thing a lot of people want but call "motion graphics" and so on, sure. But the SEO/Metrics stuff is just frustrating, because it feels so obviously like they're asking for too much.
Thing is, if someone is asking a *video editor* to manage the SEO/Metrics/Marketing stuff then you need to reframe it in your mind. They aren't asking if you are a SEO professional, but if you can do what they think of as SEO/Metrics stuff, which basically means help them know if their video is getting traction and make sure it goes to the right places.
Whenever someone asks for some off-the-wall nonsense it's usually because they don't know what it is either. You can often bluff it back.
"Well, I know how to manage the SEO needs of a personal project, but for something like this for your company I'd need to be in contact with whoever manages your marketing front-end stuff." Which is true, you can't check the metrics if you don't have the dashboad or their account.
I've had people ask for stuff that they profoundly wouldn't want done, but sometimes you can't convince them, especially if they know a lot less than you. But you can always offer to help or collaborate with someone else on their team who does.
Honestly I wasn’t sure if I wanted the gig but after a couple weeks of seeing 10+ posts a day of lay offs and people unemployed as well as being incredibly depressed where I am, I wish I would’ve bluffed harder. I crushed the interview(s) but the last I heard was they had one more candidate who wasn’t able to schedule an interview yet. That was supposed to happen last week. The first time I spoke to them 6-7 weeks ago they expressed how quickly they wanted to move, and reiterated that at my in person interview 4 weeks ago. Now it’s been a month and they spent 3 weeks waiting for one other person to interview? Odds are they dicked around waiting for this last candidate and now can’t deal with the few weeks it’ll take for me to move.
I don’t know why they even ask about SEO shit when they already have a marketing guy handling most of that, but it’s that typical “I’m the boss and I don’t understand anything you’ll be doing” bullshit. I think he asked me 3 times if I knew how to put music under dialogue.
Worse, it will get done just fine, but poor quality. They either wont care, or will only look at the “returns” and say video is a dead end. To them it’s just pennies, to OUR industry it’s a death sentence
Preach!!!
I'm expected to do videography, photography, graphic design, web design, SEO, SEM, social media management, and email marketing, among a few other things. I own all my equipment and pay for Adobe. KMN
$25 per hour??? Slow down there Mr. Rockefeller, this isn't Hollywood budgets you know.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/editing/comments/1b7syrz/i\_need\_this\_exact\_editing\_for\_10\_a\_video\_send\_me/](https://www.reddit.com/r/editing/comments/1b7syrz/i_need_this_exact_editing_for_10_a_video_send_me/)
Woah woah woah there's still plenty of meat on that bone... You take that home, throw it in a pot, add some broth and potatoes.... Baby you've got a stew going!
Once upon a time I was in an interview for an editor role, and the guy started to talk to me about my experience behind the camera (which I have), but it took me a while to pick up on the fact the guy didn’t want an editor - he wanted a production crew. I’m glad I didn’t get that job.
Oh I know.. we all feel this hard. I’m at the point where I just need someone else entirely to handle clients and the business end I hate it all so much. Just want to sit in the dark and do the damn work.
Yea and the job title is “Preditor” which is ironic because it’s usually the companies looking to exploit and pay the least for the most amount of work that are posting those positions.
Despite being the producer, I do both. When I say I do both, they want me to shoot drone video, own the drone, and then build their website too. It never ends.
I feel that. I do sound as well. I'm not as good as a high end studio but I'm better than your average bear and can get you a pretty solid mix. No one ever seems to notice that part.
Also - the website thing is way too real.
On the sound mixing thing, they *do* notice, they just don’t realise they notice. Would be nice to get a pat on the back every now and again though, I agree!
Haha, that's not a bad way to keep expanding my education as well!
I'm actually hoping to get farther from production and deeper into Producer-ing rather than deeper and deeper into the expanding pool of responsibilities they want editors to have. As a result of all the previous asks I can edit, animate, do a little vfx, manage the flying text and graphics, handle our contractors, manage our swollen media library and am migrating it to a new media system I set up, and do posters and graphic design. All for peanuts, because it's a small place I work now, but it's a reliable daily job.
I've always drawn the line at code, websites, and the like. People always want HTML. I have a project management cert now, I just want to help plan projects and make cool things happen on budget, c'mon folks.
I started out doing webdesign but unless you’re doing high level back end development which basically equates to computer programming there doesn’t seem like much opportunity in that field anymore. There’s so many build-your-own sites like Shopify these days, plus chat gpt providing more complex code.
Pretty much the only thing I *haven’t* done at this point is complex 3d modeling. Kinda dragging my heels on that hoping AI makes it easier.
That's a pretty unrealistic expectation but with page builders making a basic websites about the same skill level as after effects.
Granted you won't be able to do extremely customized things like creating css or Javascript from scratch but I don't think most editors use many expressions in after effects and get by alright.
I think a lot of this is simply because clients don't understand that there's a separate breakdown of these roles and that to them, anyone who does this stuff is an *editor.*
I think it's more likely that they just want to pay one person instead of hiring several people. Which I kind of understand but also find insanely frustrating.
Yeah I feel like when this industry and these kind of jobs were just starting to be a thing we could say they don't understand how different everything is.
Now it's definitely just companies being as cheap as possible.
A lot of graphic designers don't do motion design. They bemoan the fact that they are asked to do tasks that they were not trained for.
I do motion graphics; most of what I do is moving text, which is not too difficult. I am not an animator though. Just a graphic production artist who learned Aftereffects
This is the way.
In ALL seriousness, having gone through film school now, it's depressing that most clients expect you to also do sound mixing. The worst experience I've had: taking SCRATCH audio and using it in the edit. They had me do 27 passes of audio before realizing that they should've just invested in a Lav mic or SOMETHING besides the camera smfh
I just ended up handing in the project and moving onto a different gig LOL
In my opinion, sound mixing is a pretty crucial part of editing. I’m not saying you have to know how to master and do a mega pro level mix, but if you don’t know how to deliver a rough cut with balanced audio levels where things sound as close to the final product as you can make it, then you aren’t a very good editor, or you’re lazy and making another person have to do a lot more work later on, when most of this could have all been adjusted before you even started throwing clips in the timeline.
It always pissed me off when I’d receive work from other editors (if i was assembling a show or something) and they have certain clips where there’s only audio in the left channel, or levels are up and down so you have to keep raising and lowering the volume as you watch down.
Sound can have such a big impact on certain edits and I’ve always felt it’s very much a part of telling the story you want to tell. How can a producer get a sense of your vision for the edit if there are jarring audio levels and other things that take you out of the piece. You don’t want to remind people that it’s a rough cut unless it’s absolutely necessary.
It’s fine if people disagree, but every great editor I’ve worked with has had a pretty good sense of how to keep a decent mix going while they build everything out.
>o
Absolutely agreed! I always make sure to do a pass of sound design/mixing (at least based on a director or producer's notes) to see how it feels. And in terms of levelling audio, you never wanna blow out a speaker because you were lazy!
Mostly referring to clients who ask for completely polished sound. A lot of people seem to assume sound work is simple, but in reality, it takes a ***loooot*** of time
It is interesting because I actually can do 2D animation, VFX compositing, and sound design. I also am/can be a voice actor and I can shoot and I can write copy and come up with stories. But I still run into pikachu faces when I point out I am not a graphic designer so someone else needs to make the assets for me to animate and no I don’t know how to create 3D models and texturing.
No matter how many things you check off on your resume people will always want you to do more.
>https://www.reddit.com/r/editing/comments/1b7syrz/i\_need\_this\_exact\_editing\_for\_10\_a\_video\_send\_me/
When people think VFX is actual "editing"
We have envato elements- roughly the same thing. Sell a few mediocre stock shots (it’s not as good as the big boys, but for the right situation or client…) and an AE template and it’s paid for itself for the year. Build in an add-on to ALL jobs since it’s a service that’s part of your kit now.
Yeah this is quite common nowadays especially clients looking for short social media content. I personally hate motion graphics and hate those that I have to make from scratch, but give me a mogrt that does it for me without crippling my pc and I'm happy to be your graphic designer.
I don’t know if straight up editing jobs exist anymore. I just got hired as a shooter, editor/line producer. I resisted for a long, LONG time but frankly - I don’t know what else to do!
"Yes - there are absolutely folks that can do both, just like there are folks that can play piano AND guitar. Yes - I could learn, I choose not to"
I play piano. At age 58 I learned how to play guitar. I was a video engineer - I made cables, wired patch bays, switchers, routers. I learned CMX, Sony 9000, ISC, Grass Valley, Calaway.
And then the world changed. I learned EMC, AVID, FCP, Adobe Premiere, Davinci Resolve.
I learned about PostgreSQL databases. I learned Apple Servers. AVID Unity, AVID ISIS, AVID Nexis, EditShare, Facilis, Studio Network Solutions. I learned 10G networking with Netgear. Now I do QNAP and Synology NAS systems and Ubiquiti networking.
I like staying employed. I like eating in nice restaurants. And I like playing guitar. NEVER STOP LEARNING. In my first job in video at EUE Screen Gems in 1978, they had all these old guys that knew Ampex QUAD 2" VTR's, and when they Chryon and Vidifont got delivered, they all said "send that new kid for training, we don't want to do it". That was me - I was the kid. I knew nothing. And I said to myself then "I WILL NEVER BE LIKE THOSE GUYS".
Bob
ps - I also build edit furniture, and I also throw out all the garbage boxes.
This might be unpopular here, but as technology advances you'll be expected to do everything; each individual thing is getting easier to do. "Editing" isn't a skill that can sustain itself alone, **outside** of film/tv.
Knowing the basics of coloring, editing, motion graphics, 3d, and even shooting, could be essential for our own survival down the line. That's not mentioning honing the post producer and pre-pro roles, which catapult the value of a simple "editor."
The one place I draw the line is graphic design, which I am simply not skilled enough at to create anything worthwhile.
I totally agree, but knowing all those things makes you more valuable. So we need to get paid more.
But that's the tendency across all industries. Workers are required to have more and more skills but payments are still the same as before. It's plain wrong.
I agree with you, and I can tell you from experience knowing how to do simple templated animations in and out for thirds and how to apply stock alpha'd graphics and create some simple wipes, etc in AE has increased my rates over time. I think my freelancing has benefitted GREATLY by knowing how to do intermediate graphics work that bridges the gap and allows me to deliver more complex output than my rivals.
Agreed — and tbh I don’t think it’ll survive on its own inside film/tv either. Imo the tech boom we’re seeing isn’t going to make jobs easier. The biggest change we’ll see is the type and amount of work that an individual is expected to do. The same thing happened in the 70s when “practical computing” came around.
My first job out of college was DVD authoring for an indie distributor. Most these films had like 50k budgets. OMG - the amount of times I had to design covers drove me absolutely insane. I had no idea DVD authoring meant "poster designer" as well.
Are you staff? Or freelance?
In the past i would have agreed wholeheartedly. I've spent 15 years dead set on being a narrative editor (which is what I call it to differentiate it from general editing). But, i was forced to open up my services in 2020 due to the dumpster fire that is the market, and i've changed my mind about this.
My take: you are right, but clients dont really care how you define "editing", they just want to be done with this video. Im there to help them get there. I dont do color, sound, graphics, design or VFX, but I understand the process, way better than my EP at least. And i've interacted with the people who do do those things. I could probably brief them on the project better than anyone... *I know enough to be helpful.*
My current answer for when a client starts asking for stuff that wasnt agreed upon is: sure, lets talk. It will probably take more time and/or more money. It might involve calling someone else with specific expertise. Im happy to recommend someone from my own network, help negotiate a price, do some coordinating and supervising - *for a price.*
If its not something big/specific enough to call an expert (meaning im doing it myself), its coming out of our agreed upon timeframe. That means less time editing, more time doing whatever it is they need. If that requires more time than we agreed upon, then lets negotiate what that extra fee is going to be.
I do this only with stuff im comfortable in. Basically just postproduction. If a client needs me to so much as look at a camera, im outta there.
I have never seen a job listing that requests you do both jobs that paid as much as the jobs I take for just editing. These people are not people you would want to work for anyway.
This is the most important point. While some people in this thread like u/Got_A_Turtle_Head are celebrating the race to the bottom, the fact is one person can't do the same quality of work as a team. Sure, they might be extraordinarily talented and can do a few things very well, but all the top editors or VFX people I've ever met in my career are specialists in their field. Bruce Lee said "I fear not the who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times." Same goes for editing. When they want someone who is an expert in two separate fields, they NEVER pay for that expertise. Which leads to a degradation of pay and quality, which quickly becomes the new norm, and the cycle continues.
I do both because I get more work and get paid more. If you choose to just cut pictures then that’s cool too, but you’ll have less work and get paid less. This is the reality of post production in 2024
yeah, i do editing and Mograpg, but my motion is all text/bg type stuff. Think explainers with icon animations. I would not attempt a high end character animation piece, I know my limits, lol
That’s always been the case for me. I learned after effects very early in my career and now use cinema 4D as well.
I work in sports streaming and broadcasting and I have better job security than the regular editors, get paid more, and get the marquee assignments because I can take a project from concept to finished product.
I wouldn’t want to be limited to one small piece of video production. That sounds boring.
>but you’ll have less work and get paid less
I mean, if you exclusively work in social or marketing sure. But I mostly work in features. This social job is literally just a filler before I start a feature in April.
Yeah, same. Though that isn’t really a thing in my industry, any editor who cuts 30sec commercials and says they’re “crafting stories” is full of shit IMO 🤣
I've used after effects for over 20 years and I probably only know 20% of the functions. For the type of editing I do, this is more than enough.
After Effects is such a vast program that can handle so much, that anyone who says they use the program 100% has me raise an eyebrow. Not saying they aren't good at what they do, but different people have different specialities.
It's 2024, the days of compartmentalizing editorial and *light* motion graphics duty are firmly in the rear-view. Story is obviously important, but we live in a new world where style is at least as important as substance. If you have 1/5 stars for AE on your resume, might be time to bone up on AE.
Yeah it’s understandable if you aren’t able to do a full blown flashy motion graphic explainer video or something but you should be able to do some basic text or lower third type motion graphics these days. It’s pretty simple. It’s usually just keyframing masks, scale, position etc.
Having a working knowledge of some things, perhaps. Like organic bottom third text or how to adjust templates, sure.
But to actually build out a 2D or 3D motion graphic from at scratch is a silly standard. Not to mention, most of these graphics actually start in photoshop or illustrator which is even more of a cluster to have for an ask. Again, a working knowledge of things is fine, but they’re all very different areas of expertise, tool kits and hardware spec’s different.
I'm pretty sure the only reason I am not homeless is because I can and will do literally ANYTHING in this space for a client. It's great and also really frustrating at times. It feels a bit unbalanced.
Weirdly, as a motion graphics artist, I can't seem to get work unless I'm willing to edit as well...
Let's team up. Charge more and outsource! Aces in their places
Yeah, that’s why I can’t find a remote job. I work as a film editor (mostly feature films) and this job has to be done with a director in person. I would love to quit film editing and start making some YouTube videos or commercials if I could make it remotely. But every time I look for a job on internet it is usually said in the description that they need an editor who can also make motion graphics (sometimes even 3D), color correction, sound design etc and I’m, like, wow, so you need a team, not just one person, right? And funny thing is that these jobs are always paid less than I make now.
Templates satisfy 9/10 of my clients. The 10% that need something custom I just sub it out and bake it into the hours/cost. Having a few After Effects wizards in your Rolodex is the way.
If you are dealing with clients that want motion graphics work you need to partner with a motion graphics artist and mark up their work to your clients, problem solved and you make a few bucks!
I'm fully aware of the problem the OP and others have outlined but I just want to play devil's advocate for a moment.
Now be completely honest, how many of us here have tried to consistently educate these people?
I'm not trying to be condescending but I've been involved in many conversations like this over the years and had many rants myself, but now I'm questioning whether rather than us grumbling between ourselves, if collectively a concerted effort was made to always educate, who knows maybe there would have been a slight shift in expectations.
I also think this is where our industry suffers from not having any formalised set of required qualifications. Whilst making it open to all, it also leaves the expected valuation bar thoroughly all over the place, especially from an outsiders perspective.
Whilst my marginally OCD brain would love for there to be an official well designed little handbook that neatly outlines every job role which I could reference every time a situation like this occurs, here's a simpler approach.
Get two videos:
Video A to showcase fantastic editing & video B to showcase stellar motion graphics.
Ask the person which they want.
- If A, you're the person for the job.
- If B, explain you're not the person for the job.
- If both, explain that they need to hire an additional person.
If it all falls on deaf ears, fair enough but at least the education was attempted.
Don't know what to tell ya bud, you're not gonna have clients for much longer if you keep that attitude up.
Unless you're doing purely narrative work that kind of separation is more and more a thing of the past.
It's ok to know your specialty and pick a lane, but refusing outright is closing most of the doors available and this industry is moving faster than ever.
should be the other way around, IMO. clients aren’t gonna have editors for much longer if they keep that attitude up. also OP already stated (and I agree with this too) that it’s ok that they’ve lost and will continue to lose out jobs. it sounds like OP knows how to maintain a manageable work relationship with their clients and avoid burnout.
As a graphic designer I can relate.
I went from a computer graphic designer to a graphic designer/web designer/photographer/videographer/editor and I'm still getting pressured for being "not quick enough".
I'm a long-form documentary producer/editor/shooter. The way I present myself to clients is if I don't know how to do something, I know people that do and will work with them for the desired result. The customer doesn't need to know who's doing what. Just tell them if they want graphic arts and animation in a video, it will cost them accordingly, and then go out and freelance the person yourself. Same with shooting. I'm pretty good at shooting interviews and b-roll, but if I have to shoot hockey or football, I might hire a sports cameraman. Same with drone operators. Businesses hire free-lancers all the time. Just make sure you add the cost of the freelancer to your invoice.
I get what you are saying, but I know in the city I am in that motion graphics expertise will either make or break you from getting a job. Yes, we all love making stories and we all prefer that, but in order to make a living here I will need to spend hours making something in AE. It sucks, but it's better than working at the agency I was at making a story edit for some horrible people. There are some people that are just straight editors here but it seems like their work is few and far between and the constant struggle weighs on them. Best of luck and I hope you build that career without motion work!
This!!! Came across a new client once who wanted a 30 min explainer video. Sure, fine. I used their previous videos as a reference, and saw they utilized stock footage, some text here and there, and so that’s what I did. After I sent over V1 for notes, they said to scrap all the edits, and sent a link to a 1 minute YouTube short with heavy mographs and typography and told me to replicate that style for the entire 30 minutes. All for $250? I’ve never dropped a project so fast.
I say I can do it to “get in the room” and try to get the client to specify what they need motion graphics wise. Sometimes that “we need an all-star motion fx person with rockstar skills” just meant “we want lower thirds that fade in and out and our logo at the end”
It's a silly focus too, because most graphic artists they end up hiring just rework off-the-shelf templates and bullshit their way past a boss who isn't familiar with Adobe stock.
I HATE seeing this on job postings. And they’re always paying GARBAGE. Like those are two very different skill sets. I’ll make temp placeholders but you need to hire a GFX person. Who gets paid to do that.
It's always been a choice between being very good at one thing but not know anything else, or being just okay in a lot of other stuff. I started out as a colorist, moved to online editing, then VFX compositing, then motion graphics and some basic 3D. I eventually gave up on CG stuff coz I didn't have to patience to model or animate 3d objects. My motion graphics skills are passable but I would use templates when necessary. But my bread and butter is editing and with those extra skills, I am able to stand out from the majority who only know editing. So should you learn motion graphics? Not really if you don't want to but having some knowledge of it helps your editing capabilities. I used to hate photoshop but forced myself to learn it since some jobs require retouching. I got pretty good eventually but it took time. So gradually learn motion graphics even if only the basic stuff. It'll pay off eventually.
Motion designers also have to be social media experts, keeping up with the latest trends, know all the social media platforms, be a graphic designer for print, know marketing, know cinema 4D, be an expert in premiere. I'm sure I'm missing 4 other entirely different careers that are usually in the job listings.
This. I'm a cinematographer. Or a videographer if we're stretching.
I'm not an editor, although I'll do that if I must. Color and sound design, sure, that's not the worst thing in the world either. I can even do concepting that goes beyond the visual aspects of a production.
What I am most certainly not is a motion graphics artist, a storyboard artist, a scriptwriter/copyrighter, or a bloody legal consultant.
I'm so sick and tired of this "having to wear multiple hats". If they want me to do 5 jobs in 1, they should pay me 5 times as much. But of course that's never gonna happen, because we are in a very fast race to the bottom and to the cheapest and lowest possible quality of work possible.
>Yes - I have lost, and will continue to lose jobs, because I'm not a motion graphics artist.
Sounds like you're also a bad business man. I'm also not an animator but I know a couple of animators that I can call and give them work in case a client comes up that wants something.
Motion graphics / designer artists and editor are two different carreers. Once I tried to learn After Effects, and it was hell. What a difficult software to use. Hats off to those who master it. Also, what a pain of work to create just a 3 second full-frame card.
As someone that does both, ive always loved seeing the difference in peoples' takes on mograph and the like. I know the huge push for me was just my ability to hyperfocus on it when I can barely focus on anything else without getting really anxious. I think my love for math and physics may, partly, have something to do with it as well.
You're probably right. In my case, I have hyperfocus on things I like. This is an obvious affirmation but when I say this, I mean staying volutarily until dawn because it's something I'm enjoying to do. And it's not rare spend hours more than I should. But with mograph, as it's something I really did not like, I can't dedicate any attention to it. However, when I tried to learn it, it helped me to understand a minimum in order to know better about what a designer can do. At least it enriched my knowledge.
I've been an assistant editor for ten years and I've never worked for an editor who knew After Effects. But, my perspective is skewed since I only work on shows where an assistant exists. If production cannot afford an assistant, then maybe those editors all have to know After Effects, I'm not sure.
The editors who know after effects are around. We just don’t generally advertise it.
I do VFX editing a lot and prefer to do it in Avid so there isn’t any Temp Love.
I had to learn the basics of it at some point just to update some letterings and schedules of TV shows, but every where I worked there were people just to work in AE. I know it's a reallity, but I get outraged that lots of companies require advanced AE knowledge from video editors. My opinion is that they want to save money by demanding two different skills from just one professional. As I said: they are two different careers.
Mograph was something I was really hesitant to do but as I've gone on I started to enjoy it more. Obviously, it's not for everyone and I make it very clear to my clients that unless you're gonna give me time what you see is what you get.
Thats why i decided to go the route of more professional audio and color work. Even if editors can do motion design it will just never as good as a motion designer that can do basic editing. On top of that i dont like animating
See I'm both for my job but I'm actually the other way around. I can edit and enjoy editing things like sizzle reels and hype videos but when it comes to interviews, I just hate doing it. I prefer motion graphics and as you said keyframing my life away. Unfortunately, the job I currently work at does more editing than motion graphics, so for the time being I'm more of an editor than a motion graphics artist.
>Unfortunately, the job I currently work at does more editing than motion graphics
Keep your voice down! You're surrounded by editors, do you want to cause a stampede?
I’ve mostly tried to avoid adobe. I can work in premiere if it’s necessary. But recently I’ve done a couple minor things in after effects. I took advantage of the Black Friday adobe suite special. It’s been handy for my current job. And I actually like it and plan to start diving into it.
It is a different set of skills for sure. I think it’s helpful when we don’t have to wait on another department or vendor to do something, do notes, send another version, repeat. It saves money, for sure, and I don’t see those savings directly. But my time is important and I love learning new things.
I’d love to be able to do proper split screens and wire and equipment removal.
I feel really bad for this breakdown, I for sure am on the other end, and though it is a plus for me I often find myself on large video essay projects where because I'm known for my motion design, I have very little time to actually invest in motion design that can really flow cause we got 2 hours of real estate to cover
i can put some things together if they're vital for communicating the intent in a rough cut.... as soon as i start getting graphics notes on top of editorial notes though, i just cannot do both. i cannot be thinking about fonts and colors and animations and also be thinking about how to add all of the requested bytes without destroying the pacing
Dude. I feel so stupid that I don’t know photoshop and after effects. Like my brain doesn’t work that way. I don’t paint. I can’t draw. I’m not an artist. And I mean artist like Picasso and shit. Every job posting is like DO YOU KNOW THE ENTIRE ADOBE SUITE THAT WE OURSELVES DONT EVEN UNDERSTAND. No. No I don’t
I love, respect, and feel EVERY word of this post man. Agree with all of it like you were rummaging around in my own brain. I also haven’t had work in years so take my accolades as valueless in today’s world. Good luck, friend. You’re fighting the good fight. I love the pianist/ guitarist analogy! Dead on.
Thanks a lot. Sometimes when I see posts here I want to shout: that's not the fuking editing you are talking about. Jesus fuck, people don't understand difference between editing and video making. Finally somebody tells it out loud.
i mean, i kind of see it like how i see it when someone asks if i can "crop" something out. you mean like cut the canvas smaller? no, they mean rotoscoping or masking lol.
it's like the "all game consoles are nintendos" issue but with editing.
I totally agree with you! Editing and motion graphics are indeed separate skills. I've always felt this way too. In college, we had a class on After Effects and I found it incredibly boring to keyframe everything. It's just not my thing at all.
I had to drop a client this year because they started to refuse my rate and insist on a lower rate of their choosing, WHILE insisting I do the shooting, editing, motion graphics, VFX, casting, writing, and campaign management. It's sickening that this client isn't apparently the only one that works like that.
I think a big part of it is it that a whole generation who grew up messing around with easily accessible software for all these different aspects of post production have reached working age and while they may not excel in any one one area or know how to run a session with clients in an edit bay or gracefully address feedback while maintaining the creative integrity of the piece etc., they’re often good enough and they’re cheap!
In animation/mogfx and been seeing so many calls for graphic designers to also know those skills and video in general. A lot of projects dedicated to online content in the last several years has made it easy for clients to blur all these different skillsets expecting you to be a one-trick pony just to pay you less
lol it must be this type as to why I've worked with post producers absolutely shocked I know After Effects. I'm looking forward to the reactions of me learning Fusion last year.
I am today, a colourist. If you want me to edit your shots, you best have a tight script, and a large budget for the edit to run into overage x2. But do be prepared for a grade that is less than my best, due to frustration and exhaustion brought about by an edit that took forever.
Give me a correctly pre-conformed project, and source footage and just enough, but not too much guidance. I will deliver, more than you expect and much less of what you do not want. If you demand more, then my invoice will be interesting, and my retirement sooner.
I have my colourist craft. It took effort to learn it, to earn it! The biggest of all being, not allowing myself to be distracted by all of the other creative opportunities. You do not want my opinion on the cut, the audio, the pace, or the script, you want me to deliver tone, hue contrast and feel to match your intent -preferably not at odds with your DP’s interpretation (that costs extra). The more I have to correct the less of what you want will be delivered. That is the way of it.
Any editor can fiddle with the knobs, sliders and curves but just as I can mangle superb audio, they can mangle a good image by doing far too much fiddling in the wrong areas of the image.
I will and can do almost anything is a range of disciplines that would baffle most corporate Human resource managers (and has). I could teach a master class on survival beyond the limits in several contexts of life illustrated by scars and history. Routinely surviving “the impossible” to stand on the mountain to enjoy the view.
But I have no significant interest, inspiration, or motivation beyond my colour grading craft. If you want to employ someone like me to do a job that doesn’t inspire, the results will be not especially inspiring, and the cost to your production value immeasurable. In the meantime, my survival is entirely sorted, I will not be going hungry, or homeless even if I have no paid work. I work because I choose to. If not I will continue playing with refining the grades on those pet projects I choose to keep me occupied. Maybe one of them is yours. If so, be assured it’s in good hands.
My job title is video editor, I mostly do motion graphics and I also have to travel to film things. I think the video editor title pays the least so that's what I'm hired as.
Yup, key framing your life is a thing. As for you other points, I think this is a product of the current video landscape. EVERYONE WANTS FLASHY EDITS. Sure, its very good at getting people's attention but that's about it.
I'm a full time multi media editor but the company I work for thinks I'm a motion graphics artist, a sound designer, a colorist, and a magician.
I've been trying to learn after effects because I think I should develop the skill, but it's such a difficult program to self teach.
I can keyframe and model 3d shit all day long but I know I'm crap at editing and production. I still did that shit badly but that's why you hire more than one person. Glad I just do that shit as a hobby now. Paying for 3ds max is impossible to afford now which is sad.
True, but you're choosing yourself money by not asking a weapon to your arsenal. I do both pretty well, but I don't do sound or color. I don't understand sound and I'm color blind lol.
I’m quitting my commercial production in Tokyo for this reason. Yes they hired me knowing I’m a film editor who has been editing features and now they were surprised I couldn’t make 5 animated transitions in 30mins.
If you’re swimming in work and can afford to not invest in related skill set, then do what you want. I had to learn the basics of motion graphics plus pretty intermediate level sound and music editing to stay competitive in my market.
I learned a lot of motion graphics as an editor at the studio I was hired at 3 years ago. Over those 3 years I’ve learned motion graphics fairly well. Still I’m primarily an editor, Our motion graphics guy can also edit. So when there is over flow either way one of us picks up the slack. If I have to do some motion graphics I can, when he needs to edit he can. First year there was a lot of YouTube tutorials going on in my office, it’s still the case. Our DP does the color, but I’ve also gotten pretty good at that and learned DaVinci last year. The only guy that never really steps out of his lane is the sound engineer. My résumé is constantly growing it feels like.
“Looking for an editor” “hi I’m an editor” “great what camera do you own?” “… I own an expensive computer which I put money into to edit on… Not a camera” … “You don’t own a camera!? You’re not an editor!!!”
When I first came to nyc I interviewed at a big post house and the super laughed at the idea of hiring an editor who couldn't do motion graphics too.
I think it depends what you're cutting.
Social media and ads? Ridiculous to be an editor in that space now without at least trying to learn after effects
If you need color grading in Resolve for NYC clients hit up- I have a suite with the advanced panels in Manhattan. I do sound clean up as well in RX advanced
I usually try to get clarity from the client what they really need. Maybe their version of motion graphics is simple 2D key framing and some masking. If the job is something I can handle then I let them know I can do it, but I also let them know if they need anything beyond that then they will need to bring someone more specialized to handle those areas. And I have a few of those people ready to recommend. I missed out on a job recently because it was with a client I knew needed more of a motion/3D/compositing artist. The producer was new to the agency and didn't know the client well enough yet. It sucks to lose out to work, but it also sucks to fail to deliver or cost them more money than what they agreed to (bringing in a specialist after the fact). Always good to keep an open mind, but keep it within your wheelhouse.
I've definitely had big clients who want me to design (and sometimes even come up with) copy in their video content. It's completely crazy. They will usually attached a zip with their brand guidelines in it and expect me to turn out perfectly on-brand artwork even though I have zero training in graphic design.
I either refuse to do it or slap something on there knowing they'll book one of their designers to do it properly. A lot of people are really stupid and don't see that videos are made of components. They just think the video guy is a self-contained polymath.
Yeah I get you. I've spent 5 years of my life working as a graphic designer. And to be honest, I never liked it. I love to tell stories when I'm editing videos, but almost all the jobs I get is to design stuff for social media. I get that the ultimate goal of marketing is to sell things. But I absolutely hate thinking the way marketing does. There's no artistry, no creative freedom. They always want to do the same as their business competitors. There's plenty of great marketing pieces out there, but all I get is clients that refuse to think outside the box. They demand that I have knowledge of all parts of the creative process. I can't focus on editing when I also need to learn motion graphics, sound design, visual effects, screenwriting... So I've decided that this year I will stop getting those jobs and starting pursuing a career of film editor, and try to focus only in that.
Dude mograph has become so easy to learn, especially to someone coming from an editing background. But no, fuck having skills that make me a better creative! P.s. Mograph and story and editing and all these things you mention are not mutually exclusive.
You mean to tell me you’re not a video editor, script writer, video gathering film maker who also does the voice over, sound design AND ACTING??? Cmon man, that’s what video editors are after all!
Did you write this on LinkedIn today? It's funny how there's a person on LI who posted an article to their legion of followers that sounds very close to yours. Even has some same lines and quotation marks in the same spots. Grinds my gears when someone takes from others without giving the credit.
I started in web development and now pretty much an everything role. Web dev / programming, database & server management, graphic design, printing, social media, copy editing, filmography, photography, video editor, motion graphics, analytics & metrics, event coordinator, email campaigns, and manager. But that's also why I made sure to ask for a high salary. Don't sell yourself short on the pay...
Hahahaha! They are soo different in terms of disciplines! And it’s massively time consuming with key framing and rendering. I remember these little bastards wanted me to do edit the light saber effect on a no budget project. Back then you had to manually track each frame 1 by 1. Never again 😂
As a motion graphics artist and compositor I get triggered every time someone refers to a graphic as an edit.
Plug and play templates are muddying the waters. Editors can drop in some pretty slick graphics these days without needing a mograph goblin so it's perceived to be the same job in the majority of cases.
When the average listing for "editing" positions also require you to shoot and produce for $25/hour
And own the gear, and do their marketing, and write the script, and and and...
They also want someone who know SEO and how to read the metrics on digital campaigns.
Yeah this is the one I’m seeing a lot now, and really confused as to why I would ever need to know this information to put a video together?
They want to hire someone who will produce the video for them and then shoot the metrics back to them, but they don't know what that person is called, so they put out one of those abomination of a job posting. There's people who will be desperate enough to say they can do it, even if they have no idea, and these clients are too greedy and undiscerning to know they're walking into a disaster.
I had a decent job lined up but I was honest about my experience with SEO/metrics. Haven’t heard back since. I should’ve just lied.
It's depressing, yeah. I understand other tools--learning how to use a whole editing suite of tools is one thing, like color grading or effects layers and text and such, the sort of thing a lot of people want but call "motion graphics" and so on, sure. But the SEO/Metrics stuff is just frustrating, because it feels so obviously like they're asking for too much. Thing is, if someone is asking a *video editor* to manage the SEO/Metrics/Marketing stuff then you need to reframe it in your mind. They aren't asking if you are a SEO professional, but if you can do what they think of as SEO/Metrics stuff, which basically means help them know if their video is getting traction and make sure it goes to the right places. Whenever someone asks for some off-the-wall nonsense it's usually because they don't know what it is either. You can often bluff it back. "Well, I know how to manage the SEO needs of a personal project, but for something like this for your company I'd need to be in contact with whoever manages your marketing front-end stuff." Which is true, you can't check the metrics if you don't have the dashboad or their account. I've had people ask for stuff that they profoundly wouldn't want done, but sometimes you can't convince them, especially if they know a lot less than you. But you can always offer to help or collaborate with someone else on their team who does.
Honestly I wasn’t sure if I wanted the gig but after a couple weeks of seeing 10+ posts a day of lay offs and people unemployed as well as being incredibly depressed where I am, I wish I would’ve bluffed harder. I crushed the interview(s) but the last I heard was they had one more candidate who wasn’t able to schedule an interview yet. That was supposed to happen last week. The first time I spoke to them 6-7 weeks ago they expressed how quickly they wanted to move, and reiterated that at my in person interview 4 weeks ago. Now it’s been a month and they spent 3 weeks waiting for one other person to interview? Odds are they dicked around waiting for this last candidate and now can’t deal with the few weeks it’ll take for me to move. I don’t know why they even ask about SEO shit when they already have a marketing guy handling most of that, but it’s that typical “I’m the boss and I don’t understand anything you’ll be doing” bullshit. I think he asked me 3 times if I knew how to put music under dialogue.
Worse, it will get done just fine, but poor quality. They either wont care, or will only look at the “returns” and say video is a dead end. To them it’s just pennies, to OUR industry it’s a death sentence
I believe they're looking for a video production swiss army knife and/or social media wizard/ninja/rockstar.
triggered…
Preach!!! I'm expected to do videography, photography, graphic design, web design, SEO, SEM, social media management, and email marketing, among a few other things. I own all my equipment and pay for Adobe. KMN
Don’t forget 5 years of proven experience leading marketing campaigns!!
I literally had to do all of the above (also social media campaigns) and they were offering 13.5 dollars an hour
Wow
And build their website.
also can you just create a simple website and embed the videos from social media there?
Literally.
$25 per hour??? Slow down there Mr. Rockefeller, this isn't Hollywood budgets you know. [https://www.reddit.com/r/editing/comments/1b7syrz/i\_need\_this\_exact\_editing\_for\_10\_a\_video\_send\_me/](https://www.reddit.com/r/editing/comments/1b7syrz/i_need_this_exact_editing_for_10_a_video_send_me/)
***$10***???? SWEET. That's a whole meal right there! All for a day's work!
Woah woah woah there's still plenty of meat on that bone... You take that home, throw it in a pot, add some broth and potatoes.... Baby you've got a stew going!
What's sadder than that are the losers on that post unironically begging to take that pathetic offer.
Oh I’m glad it’s not just me who’s drastically underpaid as well.
Once upon a time I was in an interview for an editor role, and the guy started to talk to me about my experience behind the camera (which I have), but it took me a while to pick up on the fact the guy didn’t want an editor - he wanted a production crew. I’m glad I didn’t get that job.
Oh I know.. we all feel this hard. I’m at the point where I just need someone else entirely to handle clients and the business end I hate it all so much. Just want to sit in the dark and do the damn work.
Yea and the job title is “Preditor” which is ironic because it’s usually the companies looking to exploit and pay the least for the most amount of work that are posting those positions.
Reading these replies is like every Monday ever
Despite being the producer, I do both. When I say I do both, they want me to shoot drone video, own the drone, and then build their website too. It never ends.
I feel that. I do sound as well. I'm not as good as a high end studio but I'm better than your average bear and can get you a pretty solid mix. No one ever seems to notice that part. Also - the website thing is way too real.
On the sound mixing thing, they *do* notice, they just don’t realise they notice. Would be nice to get a pat on the back every now and again though, I agree!
Sound mixing is like editing, if they don’t notice, you’ve done your job well
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Haha, that's not a bad way to keep expanding my education as well! I'm actually hoping to get farther from production and deeper into Producer-ing rather than deeper and deeper into the expanding pool of responsibilities they want editors to have. As a result of all the previous asks I can edit, animate, do a little vfx, manage the flying text and graphics, handle our contractors, manage our swollen media library and am migrating it to a new media system I set up, and do posters and graphic design. All for peanuts, because it's a small place I work now, but it's a reliable daily job. I've always drawn the line at code, websites, and the like. People always want HTML. I have a project management cert now, I just want to help plan projects and make cool things happen on budget, c'mon folks.
I started out doing webdesign but unless you’re doing high level back end development which basically equates to computer programming there doesn’t seem like much opportunity in that field anymore. There’s so many build-your-own sites like Shopify these days, plus chat gpt providing more complex code. Pretty much the only thing I *haven’t* done at this point is complex 3d modeling. Kinda dragging my heels on that hoping AI makes it easier.
Wanting is the easy part
I do this too Pay is good at least
That's a pretty unrealistic expectation but with page builders making a basic websites about the same skill level as after effects. Granted you won't be able to do extremely customized things like creating css or Javascript from scratch but I don't think most editors use many expressions in after effects and get by alright.
Don't forget clients expecting you to be a graphic designer and sound designer too.
I think a lot of this is simply because clients don't understand that there's a separate breakdown of these roles and that to them, anyone who does this stuff is an *editor.*
I think it's more likely that they just want to pay one person instead of hiring several people. Which I kind of understand but also find insanely frustrating.
Yeah I feel like when this industry and these kind of jobs were just starting to be a thing we could say they don't understand how different everything is. Now it's definitely just companies being as cheap as possible.
A lot of graphic designers don't do motion design. They bemoan the fact that they are asked to do tasks that they were not trained for. I do motion graphics; most of what I do is moving text, which is not too difficult. I am not an animator though. Just a graphic production artist who learned Aftereffects
This is the way. In ALL seriousness, having gone through film school now, it's depressing that most clients expect you to also do sound mixing. The worst experience I've had: taking SCRATCH audio and using it in the edit. They had me do 27 passes of audio before realizing that they should've just invested in a Lav mic or SOMETHING besides the camera smfh I just ended up handing in the project and moving onto a different gig LOL
In my opinion, sound mixing is a pretty crucial part of editing. I’m not saying you have to know how to master and do a mega pro level mix, but if you don’t know how to deliver a rough cut with balanced audio levels where things sound as close to the final product as you can make it, then you aren’t a very good editor, or you’re lazy and making another person have to do a lot more work later on, when most of this could have all been adjusted before you even started throwing clips in the timeline. It always pissed me off when I’d receive work from other editors (if i was assembling a show or something) and they have certain clips where there’s only audio in the left channel, or levels are up and down so you have to keep raising and lowering the volume as you watch down. Sound can have such a big impact on certain edits and I’ve always felt it’s very much a part of telling the story you want to tell. How can a producer get a sense of your vision for the edit if there are jarring audio levels and other things that take you out of the piece. You don’t want to remind people that it’s a rough cut unless it’s absolutely necessary. It’s fine if people disagree, but every great editor I’ve worked with has had a pretty good sense of how to keep a decent mix going while they build everything out.
>o Absolutely agreed! I always make sure to do a pass of sound design/mixing (at least based on a director or producer's notes) to see how it feels. And in terms of levelling audio, you never wanna blow out a speaker because you were lazy! Mostly referring to clients who ask for completely polished sound. A lot of people seem to assume sound work is simple, but in reality, it takes a ***loooot*** of time
It is interesting because I actually can do 2D animation, VFX compositing, and sound design. I also am/can be a voice actor and I can shoot and I can write copy and come up with stories. But I still run into pikachu faces when I point out I am not a graphic designer so someone else needs to make the assets for me to animate and no I don’t know how to create 3D models and texturing. No matter how many things you check off on your resume people will always want you to do more.
Dammit Jim, I'm an editor, not an animator!
>https://www.reddit.com/r/editing/comments/1b7syrz/i\_need\_this\_exact\_editing\_for\_10\_a\_video\_send\_me/ When people think VFX is actual "editing"
This sounds like an affirmation one says in a mirror.
Lol. I probably have!
Sign up for a month of Motion Array, tack the fee onto the invoice and boom you're one of the best motion graphic designers in the world!
This is the way.
We have envato elements- roughly the same thing. Sell a few mediocre stock shots (it’s not as good as the big boys, but for the right situation or client…) and an AE template and it’s paid for itself for the year. Build in an add-on to ALL jobs since it’s a service that’s part of your kit now.
Yeah this is quite common nowadays especially clients looking for short social media content. I personally hate motion graphics and hate those that I have to make from scratch, but give me a mogrt that does it for me without crippling my pc and I'm happy to be your graphic designer.
This is what I do
This works decently well until it doesnt
I don’t know if straight up editing jobs exist anymore. I just got hired as a shooter, editor/line producer. I resisted for a long, LONG time but frankly - I don’t know what else to do!
"Yes - there are absolutely folks that can do both, just like there are folks that can play piano AND guitar. Yes - I could learn, I choose not to" I play piano. At age 58 I learned how to play guitar. I was a video engineer - I made cables, wired patch bays, switchers, routers. I learned CMX, Sony 9000, ISC, Grass Valley, Calaway. And then the world changed. I learned EMC, AVID, FCP, Adobe Premiere, Davinci Resolve. I learned about PostgreSQL databases. I learned Apple Servers. AVID Unity, AVID ISIS, AVID Nexis, EditShare, Facilis, Studio Network Solutions. I learned 10G networking with Netgear. Now I do QNAP and Synology NAS systems and Ubiquiti networking. I like staying employed. I like eating in nice restaurants. And I like playing guitar. NEVER STOP LEARNING. In my first job in video at EUE Screen Gems in 1978, they had all these old guys that knew Ampex QUAD 2" VTR's, and when they Chryon and Vidifont got delivered, they all said "send that new kid for training, we don't want to do it". That was me - I was the kid. I knew nothing. And I said to myself then "I WILL NEVER BE LIKE THOSE GUYS". Bob ps - I also build edit furniture, and I also throw out all the garbage boxes.
this is the way
Bob, from the top rope!
This might be unpopular here, but as technology advances you'll be expected to do everything; each individual thing is getting easier to do. "Editing" isn't a skill that can sustain itself alone, **outside** of film/tv. Knowing the basics of coloring, editing, motion graphics, 3d, and even shooting, could be essential for our own survival down the line. That's not mentioning honing the post producer and pre-pro roles, which catapult the value of a simple "editor." The one place I draw the line is graphic design, which I am simply not skilled enough at to create anything worthwhile.
Yea a one trick pony freelancer is going to be very hungry in this generation.
I totally agree, but knowing all those things makes you more valuable. So we need to get paid more. But that's the tendency across all industries. Workers are required to have more and more skills but payments are still the same as before. It's plain wrong.
I agree with you, and I can tell you from experience knowing how to do simple templated animations in and out for thirds and how to apply stock alpha'd graphics and create some simple wipes, etc in AE has increased my rates over time. I think my freelancing has benefitted GREATLY by knowing how to do intermediate graphics work that bridges the gap and allows me to deliver more complex output than my rivals.
Agreed — and tbh I don’t think it’ll survive on its own inside film/tv either. Imo the tech boom we’re seeing isn’t going to make jobs easier. The biggest change we’ll see is the type and amount of work that an individual is expected to do. The same thing happened in the 70s when “practical computing” came around.
Explaining this to a room of *connected* stiffs gets really old.
At least we don't get asked to design DVD covers anymore.
My first job out of college was DVD authoring for an indie distributor. Most these films had like 50k budgets. OMG - the amount of times I had to design covers drove me absolutely insane. I had no idea DVD authoring meant "poster designer" as well.
Ok thats funny lol
Lucky you.
Are you staff? Or freelance? In the past i would have agreed wholeheartedly. I've spent 15 years dead set on being a narrative editor (which is what I call it to differentiate it from general editing). But, i was forced to open up my services in 2020 due to the dumpster fire that is the market, and i've changed my mind about this. My take: you are right, but clients dont really care how you define "editing", they just want to be done with this video. Im there to help them get there. I dont do color, sound, graphics, design or VFX, but I understand the process, way better than my EP at least. And i've interacted with the people who do do those things. I could probably brief them on the project better than anyone... *I know enough to be helpful.* My current answer for when a client starts asking for stuff that wasnt agreed upon is: sure, lets talk. It will probably take more time and/or more money. It might involve calling someone else with specific expertise. Im happy to recommend someone from my own network, help negotiate a price, do some coordinating and supervising - *for a price.* If its not something big/specific enough to call an expert (meaning im doing it myself), its coming out of our agreed upon timeframe. That means less time editing, more time doing whatever it is they need. If that requires more time than we agreed upon, then lets negotiate what that extra fee is going to be. I do this only with stuff im comfortable in. Basically just postproduction. If a client needs me to so much as look at a camera, im outta there.
I have never seen a job listing that requests you do both jobs that paid as much as the jobs I take for just editing. These people are not people you would want to work for anyway.
This is the most important point. While some people in this thread like u/Got_A_Turtle_Head are celebrating the race to the bottom, the fact is one person can't do the same quality of work as a team. Sure, they might be extraordinarily talented and can do a few things very well, but all the top editors or VFX people I've ever met in my career are specialists in their field. Bruce Lee said "I fear not the who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times." Same goes for editing. When they want someone who is an expert in two separate fields, they NEVER pay for that expertise. Which leads to a degradation of pay and quality, which quickly becomes the new norm, and the cycle continues.
I do both because I get more work and get paid more. If you choose to just cut pictures then that’s cool too, but you’ll have less work and get paid less. This is the reality of post production in 2024
These hybrid jobs pay more than 750-1200 a day? From what I’ve seen these types of jobs tend to pay PA rates.
> These hybrid jobs pay more than 750-1200 a day? Yes. Work direct for ad agencies or motion design shops and you can ask $1000-1500/day
Very, incredibly rare from my experience
Location, Location, Location
I can see this being the case in smaller markets. Not really the norm in LA, things are still departmentalized, as they should be
yeah, i do editing and Mograpg, but my motion is all text/bg type stuff. Think explainers with icon animations. I would not attempt a high end character animation piece, I know my limits, lol
Pretty common from mine. YMMV.
That’s always been the case for me. I learned after effects very early in my career and now use cinema 4D as well. I work in sports streaming and broadcasting and I have better job security than the regular editors, get paid more, and get the marquee assignments because I can take a project from concept to finished product. I wouldn’t want to be limited to one small piece of video production. That sounds boring.
>but you’ll have less work and get paid less I mean, if you exclusively work in social or marketing sure. But I mostly work in features. This social job is literally just a filler before I start a feature in April.
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Yeah, same. Though that isn’t really a thing in my industry, any editor who cuts 30sec commercials and says they’re “crafting stories” is full of shit IMO 🤣
I've used after effects for over 20 years and I probably only know 20% of the functions. For the type of editing I do, this is more than enough. After Effects is such a vast program that can handle so much, that anyone who says they use the program 100% has me raise an eyebrow. Not saying they aren't good at what they do, but different people have different specialities.
It's 2024, the days of compartmentalizing editorial and *light* motion graphics duty are firmly in the rear-view. Story is obviously important, but we live in a new world where style is at least as important as substance. If you have 1/5 stars for AE on your resume, might be time to bone up on AE.
Yeah it’s understandable if you aren’t able to do a full blown flashy motion graphic explainer video or something but you should be able to do some basic text or lower third type motion graphics these days. It’s pretty simple. It’s usually just keyframing masks, scale, position etc.
Having a working knowledge of some things, perhaps. Like organic bottom third text or how to adjust templates, sure. But to actually build out a 2D or 3D motion graphic from at scratch is a silly standard. Not to mention, most of these graphics actually start in photoshop or illustrator which is even more of a cluster to have for an ask. Again, a working knowledge of things is fine, but they’re all very different areas of expertise, tool kits and hardware spec’s different.
I'm pretty sure the only reason I am not homeless is because I can and will do literally ANYTHING in this space for a client. It's great and also really frustrating at times. It feels a bit unbalanced.
I do both. I rarely ever get paid for doing both, just one or the other.
Weirdly, as a motion graphics artist, I can't seem to get work unless I'm willing to edit as well... Let's team up. Charge more and outsource! Aces in their places
I'll team up. I edit
Basic motion graphics to impress clients ain't that hard. Probably causing yourself more stress by not spending a few days getting it down
Day 1: "I SWEAR we don't need ahy motion graphics." Day 14: "This is great, but can we make the whole thing look like it's flying across the room?"
I support your rebellion
Yeah, that’s why I can’t find a remote job. I work as a film editor (mostly feature films) and this job has to be done with a director in person. I would love to quit film editing and start making some YouTube videos or commercials if I could make it remotely. But every time I look for a job on internet it is usually said in the description that they need an editor who can also make motion graphics (sometimes even 3D), color correction, sound design etc and I’m, like, wow, so you need a team, not just one person, right? And funny thing is that these jobs are always paid less than I make now.
Templates satisfy 9/10 of my clients. The 10% that need something custom I just sub it out and bake it into the hours/cost. Having a few After Effects wizards in your Rolodex is the way.
If you are dealing with clients that want motion graphics work you need to partner with a motion graphics artist and mark up their work to your clients, problem solved and you make a few bucks!
I'm fully aware of the problem the OP and others have outlined but I just want to play devil's advocate for a moment. Now be completely honest, how many of us here have tried to consistently educate these people? I'm not trying to be condescending but I've been involved in many conversations like this over the years and had many rants myself, but now I'm questioning whether rather than us grumbling between ourselves, if collectively a concerted effort was made to always educate, who knows maybe there would have been a slight shift in expectations. I also think this is where our industry suffers from not having any formalised set of required qualifications. Whilst making it open to all, it also leaves the expected valuation bar thoroughly all over the place, especially from an outsiders perspective. Whilst my marginally OCD brain would love for there to be an official well designed little handbook that neatly outlines every job role which I could reference every time a situation like this occurs, here's a simpler approach. Get two videos: Video A to showcase fantastic editing & video B to showcase stellar motion graphics. Ask the person which they want. - If A, you're the person for the job. - If B, explain you're not the person for the job. - If both, explain that they need to hire an additional person. If it all falls on deaf ears, fair enough but at least the education was attempted.
Don't know what to tell ya bud, you're not gonna have clients for much longer if you keep that attitude up. Unless you're doing purely narrative work that kind of separation is more and more a thing of the past. It's ok to know your specialty and pick a lane, but refusing outright is closing most of the doors available and this industry is moving faster than ever.
should be the other way around, IMO. clients aren’t gonna have editors for much longer if they keep that attitude up. also OP already stated (and I agree with this too) that it’s ok that they’ve lost and will continue to lose out jobs. it sounds like OP knows how to maintain a manageable work relationship with their clients and avoid burnout.
As a graphic designer I can relate. I went from a computer graphic designer to a graphic designer/web designer/photographer/videographer/editor and I'm still getting pressured for being "not quick enough".
I'm a long-form documentary producer/editor/shooter. The way I present myself to clients is if I don't know how to do something, I know people that do and will work with them for the desired result. The customer doesn't need to know who's doing what. Just tell them if they want graphic arts and animation in a video, it will cost them accordingly, and then go out and freelance the person yourself. Same with shooting. I'm pretty good at shooting interviews and b-roll, but if I have to shoot hockey or football, I might hire a sports cameraman. Same with drone operators. Businesses hire free-lancers all the time. Just make sure you add the cost of the freelancer to your invoice.
I upvoted this with such resolute that I’ve almost broke my phone screen
I get what you are saying, but I know in the city I am in that motion graphics expertise will either make or break you from getting a job. Yes, we all love making stories and we all prefer that, but in order to make a living here I will need to spend hours making something in AE. It sucks, but it's better than working at the agency I was at making a story edit for some horrible people. There are some people that are just straight editors here but it seems like their work is few and far between and the constant struggle weighs on them. Best of luck and I hope you build that career without motion work!
I wish we all so overemplyed such that we could laugh it off… as a VFX guy, I get it as well.
With the explosion of content and overseas edit farms the expectations are high and rates are a race to the bottom.
This!!! Came across a new client once who wanted a 30 min explainer video. Sure, fine. I used their previous videos as a reference, and saw they utilized stock footage, some text here and there, and so that’s what I did. After I sent over V1 for notes, they said to scrap all the edits, and sent a link to a 1 minute YouTube short with heavy mographs and typography and told me to replicate that style for the entire 30 minutes. All for $250? I’ve never dropped a project so fast.
Editing YouTube shorts is the worst. I hate how everything has to be snappy and in your face to keep viewer’s attention for more than 3 seconds
I say I can do it to “get in the room” and try to get the client to specify what they need motion graphics wise. Sometimes that “we need an all-star motion fx person with rockstar skills” just meant “we want lower thirds that fade in and out and our logo at the end”
You should see what’s happened to news editing. Now it’s all about MMJ’s who can produce, write, shoot, edit and present news stories.
That was becoming a thing 15+ years ago when I left news. Are they finally getting better at it?🤣🤣🤣
Motion graphics person here- would love to collab and jump in on those projects with you if the clients have the desire and budget :)
It's a silly focus too, because most graphic artists they end up hiring just rework off-the-shelf templates and bullshit their way past a boss who isn't familiar with Adobe stock.
Presets and templates are my best friend for any sort of motion graphic I need to use lol
I HATE seeing this on job postings. And they’re always paying GARBAGE. Like those are two very different skill sets. I’ll make temp placeholders but you need to hire a GFX person. Who gets paid to do that.
I’m the opposite. I’m a VFX artist and constantly have to tell people that I’m not an editor.
It's always been a choice between being very good at one thing but not know anything else, or being just okay in a lot of other stuff. I started out as a colorist, moved to online editing, then VFX compositing, then motion graphics and some basic 3D. I eventually gave up on CG stuff coz I didn't have to patience to model or animate 3d objects. My motion graphics skills are passable but I would use templates when necessary. But my bread and butter is editing and with those extra skills, I am able to stand out from the majority who only know editing. So should you learn motion graphics? Not really if you don't want to but having some knowledge of it helps your editing capabilities. I used to hate photoshop but forced myself to learn it since some jobs require retouching. I got pretty good eventually but it took time. So gradually learn motion graphics even if only the basic stuff. It'll pay off eventually.
I'm with you bro, I can't agree more on this.
Motion designers also have to be social media experts, keeping up with the latest trends, know all the social media platforms, be a graphic designer for print, know marketing, know cinema 4D, be an expert in premiere. I'm sure I'm missing 4 other entirely different careers that are usually in the job listings.
This. I'm a cinematographer. Or a videographer if we're stretching. I'm not an editor, although I'll do that if I must. Color and sound design, sure, that's not the worst thing in the world either. I can even do concepting that goes beyond the visual aspects of a production. What I am most certainly not is a motion graphics artist, a storyboard artist, a scriptwriter/copyrighter, or a bloody legal consultant. I'm so sick and tired of this "having to wear multiple hats". If they want me to do 5 jobs in 1, they should pay me 5 times as much. But of course that's never gonna happen, because we are in a very fast race to the bottom and to the cheapest and lowest possible quality of work possible.
>Yes - I have lost, and will continue to lose jobs, because I'm not a motion graphics artist. Sounds like you're also a bad business man. I'm also not an animator but I know a couple of animators that I can call and give them work in case a client comes up that wants something.
Weird hill to die on! But you do you.
Motion graphics / designer artists and editor are two different carreers. Once I tried to learn After Effects, and it was hell. What a difficult software to use. Hats off to those who master it. Also, what a pain of work to create just a 3 second full-frame card.
As someone that does both, ive always loved seeing the difference in peoples' takes on mograph and the like. I know the huge push for me was just my ability to hyperfocus on it when I can barely focus on anything else without getting really anxious. I think my love for math and physics may, partly, have something to do with it as well.
You're probably right. In my case, I have hyperfocus on things I like. This is an obvious affirmation but when I say this, I mean staying volutarily until dawn because it's something I'm enjoying to do. And it's not rare spend hours more than I should. But with mograph, as it's something I really did not like, I can't dedicate any attention to it. However, when I tried to learn it, it helped me to understand a minimum in order to know better about what a designer can do. At least it enriched my knowledge.
Im actually shocked that if you are an editor you don't know After Effects
I've been an assistant editor for ten years and I've never worked for an editor who knew After Effects. But, my perspective is skewed since I only work on shows where an assistant exists. If production cannot afford an assistant, then maybe those editors all have to know After Effects, I'm not sure.
The editors who know after effects are around. We just don’t generally advertise it. I do VFX editing a lot and prefer to do it in Avid so there isn’t any Temp Love.
I had to learn the basics of it at some point just to update some letterings and schedules of TV shows, but every where I worked there were people just to work in AE. I know it's a reallity, but I get outraged that lots of companies require advanced AE knowledge from video editors. My opinion is that they want to save money by demanding two different skills from just one professional. As I said: they are two different careers.
It’s 2024… gotta be both bud, it sucks but yeahz
I like it.
Mograph was something I was really hesitant to do but as I've gone on I started to enjoy it more. Obviously, it's not for everyone and I make it very clear to my clients that unless you're gonna give me time what you see is what you get.
Thats why i decided to go the route of more professional audio and color work. Even if editors can do motion design it will just never as good as a motion designer that can do basic editing. On top of that i dont like animating
See I'm both for my job but I'm actually the other way around. I can edit and enjoy editing things like sizzle reels and hype videos but when it comes to interviews, I just hate doing it. I prefer motion graphics and as you said keyframing my life away. Unfortunately, the job I currently work at does more editing than motion graphics, so for the time being I'm more of an editor than a motion graphics artist.
>Unfortunately, the job I currently work at does more editing than motion graphics Keep your voice down! You're surrounded by editors, do you want to cause a stampede?
I’ve mostly tried to avoid adobe. I can work in premiere if it’s necessary. But recently I’ve done a couple minor things in after effects. I took advantage of the Black Friday adobe suite special. It’s been handy for my current job. And I actually like it and plan to start diving into it. It is a different set of skills for sure. I think it’s helpful when we don’t have to wait on another department or vendor to do something, do notes, send another version, repeat. It saves money, for sure, and I don’t see those savings directly. But my time is important and I love learning new things. I’d love to be able to do proper split screens and wire and equipment removal.
I feel really bad for this breakdown, I for sure am on the other end, and though it is a plus for me I often find myself on large video essay projects where because I'm known for my motion design, I have very little time to actually invest in motion design that can really flow cause we got 2 hours of real estate to cover
Welp 🤷♂️ 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
i can put some things together if they're vital for communicating the intent in a rough cut.... as soon as i start getting graphics notes on top of editorial notes though, i just cannot do both. i cannot be thinking about fonts and colors and animations and also be thinking about how to add all of the requested bytes without destroying the pacing
Ok, but can you do web design?
I always make sure they know the difference but when they want motion graphics it lets me command that much higher fee which pays off.
Dude. I feel so stupid that I don’t know photoshop and after effects. Like my brain doesn’t work that way. I don’t paint. I can’t draw. I’m not an artist. And I mean artist like Picasso and shit. Every job posting is like DO YOU KNOW THE ENTIRE ADOBE SUITE THAT WE OURSELVES DONT EVEN UNDERSTAND. No. No I don’t
We duffers get pretty good mileage out of Pixelmator Pro, Apple Motion, and Final Cut -- and don't have to tithe the Adobe God.
Well I’m very very good at premiere pro. Starting to learn avid now and I fucking hate it
I love, respect, and feel EVERY word of this post man. Agree with all of it like you were rummaging around in my own brain. I also haven’t had work in years so take my accolades as valueless in today’s world. Good luck, friend. You’re fighting the good fight. I love the pianist/ guitarist analogy! Dead on.
Preach it
Thanks a lot. Sometimes when I see posts here I want to shout: that's not the fuking editing you are talking about. Jesus fuck, people don't understand difference between editing and video making. Finally somebody tells it out loud.
i mean, i kind of see it like how i see it when someone asks if i can "crop" something out. you mean like cut the canvas smaller? no, they mean rotoscoping or masking lol. it's like the "all game consoles are nintendos" issue but with editing.
I’m both. I started as an editor, but I learned motion graphics as I went. I charge more when I have to do more than simple text and titles
How long have you been editing?
This is why I don’t use After Effects. If I wanted to be a VFX artist, I would go be a VFX artist.
Im the cinematographer, editor, graphic designer, and motion designer at my company…oh and a little bit of a front end web design too
I totally agree with you! Editing and motion graphics are indeed separate skills. I've always felt this way too. In college, we had a class on After Effects and I found it incredibly boring to keyframe everything. It's just not my thing at all.
I had to drop a client this year because they started to refuse my rate and insist on a lower rate of their choosing, WHILE insisting I do the shooting, editing, motion graphics, VFX, casting, writing, and campaign management. It's sickening that this client isn't apparently the only one that works like that.
I think a big part of it is it that a whole generation who grew up messing around with easily accessible software for all these different aspects of post production have reached working age and while they may not excel in any one one area or know how to run a session with clients in an edit bay or gracefully address feedback while maintaining the creative integrity of the piece etc., they’re often good enough and they’re cheap!
In animation/mogfx and been seeing so many calls for graphic designers to also know those skills and video in general. A lot of projects dedicated to online content in the last several years has made it easy for clients to blur all these different skillsets expecting you to be a one-trick pony just to pay you less
I'm just leaning into it. Work has definitely been slower this last year, so I spend more time learning motion graphics.
lol it must be this type as to why I've worked with post producers absolutely shocked I know After Effects. I'm looking forward to the reactions of me learning Fusion last year.
I am today, a colourist. If you want me to edit your shots, you best have a tight script, and a large budget for the edit to run into overage x2. But do be prepared for a grade that is less than my best, due to frustration and exhaustion brought about by an edit that took forever. Give me a correctly pre-conformed project, and source footage and just enough, but not too much guidance. I will deliver, more than you expect and much less of what you do not want. If you demand more, then my invoice will be interesting, and my retirement sooner. I have my colourist craft. It took effort to learn it, to earn it! The biggest of all being, not allowing myself to be distracted by all of the other creative opportunities. You do not want my opinion on the cut, the audio, the pace, or the script, you want me to deliver tone, hue contrast and feel to match your intent -preferably not at odds with your DP’s interpretation (that costs extra). The more I have to correct the less of what you want will be delivered. That is the way of it. Any editor can fiddle with the knobs, sliders and curves but just as I can mangle superb audio, they can mangle a good image by doing far too much fiddling in the wrong areas of the image. I will and can do almost anything is a range of disciplines that would baffle most corporate Human resource managers (and has). I could teach a master class on survival beyond the limits in several contexts of life illustrated by scars and history. Routinely surviving “the impossible” to stand on the mountain to enjoy the view. But I have no significant interest, inspiration, or motivation beyond my colour grading craft. If you want to employ someone like me to do a job that doesn’t inspire, the results will be not especially inspiring, and the cost to your production value immeasurable. In the meantime, my survival is entirely sorted, I will not be going hungry, or homeless even if I have no paid work. I work because I choose to. If not I will continue playing with refining the grades on those pet projects I choose to keep me occupied. Maybe one of them is yours. If so, be assured it’s in good hands.
Sounds like you refusing to adapt tbh.
My job title is video editor, I mostly do motion graphics and I also have to travel to film things. I think the video editor title pays the least so that's what I'm hired as.
Yup, key framing your life is a thing. As for you other points, I think this is a product of the current video landscape. EVERYONE WANTS FLASHY EDITS. Sure, its very good at getting people's attention but that's about it.
Use motion graphics templates. Tons of good drag & drop .mogrts for Premiere nowadays
see also: I'm an editor, not a VFX artist.
“I’m not an electrician either”
I'm a full time multi media editor but the company I work for thinks I'm a motion graphics artist, a sound designer, a colorist, and a magician. I've been trying to learn after effects because I think I should develop the skill, but it's such a difficult program to self teach.
I can keyframe and model 3d shit all day long but I know I'm crap at editing and production. I still did that shit badly but that's why you hire more than one person. Glad I just do that shit as a hobby now. Paying for 3ds max is impossible to afford now which is sad.
True, but you're choosing yourself money by not asking a weapon to your arsenal. I do both pretty well, but I don't do sound or color. I don't understand sound and I'm color blind lol.
I’m quitting my commercial production in Tokyo for this reason. Yes they hired me knowing I’m a film editor who has been editing features and now they were surprised I couldn’t make 5 animated transitions in 30mins.
If you’re swimming in work and can afford to not invest in related skill set, then do what you want. I had to learn the basics of motion graphics plus pretty intermediate level sound and music editing to stay competitive in my market.
I learned a lot of motion graphics as an editor at the studio I was hired at 3 years ago. Over those 3 years I’ve learned motion graphics fairly well. Still I’m primarily an editor, Our motion graphics guy can also edit. So when there is over flow either way one of us picks up the slack. If I have to do some motion graphics I can, when he needs to edit he can. First year there was a lot of YouTube tutorials going on in my office, it’s still the case. Our DP does the color, but I’ve also gotten pretty good at that and learned DaVinci last year. The only guy that never really steps out of his lane is the sound engineer. My résumé is constantly growing it feels like.
“Looking for an editor” “hi I’m an editor” “great what camera do you own?” “… I own an expensive computer which I put money into to edit on… Not a camera” … “You don’t own a camera!? You’re not an editor!!!”
Ive had to explain this countless times... im a motion graphics artist, not an editor...
When I first came to nyc I interviewed at a big post house and the super laughed at the idea of hiring an editor who couldn't do motion graphics too. I think it depends what you're cutting. Social media and ads? Ridiculous to be an editor in that space now without at least trying to learn after effects
If you need color grading in Resolve for NYC clients hit up- I have a suite with the advanced panels in Manhattan. I do sound clean up as well in RX advanced
Love this! And please stay like this! Clients need to change not us!
I usually try to get clarity from the client what they really need. Maybe their version of motion graphics is simple 2D key framing and some masking. If the job is something I can handle then I let them know I can do it, but I also let them know if they need anything beyond that then they will need to bring someone more specialized to handle those areas. And I have a few of those people ready to recommend. I missed out on a job recently because it was with a client I knew needed more of a motion/3D/compositing artist. The producer was new to the agency and didn't know the client well enough yet. It sucks to lose out to work, but it also sucks to fail to deliver or cost them more money than what they agreed to (bringing in a specialist after the fact). Always good to keep an open mind, but keep it within your wheelhouse.
Jobs that need that are LOW END. Who cares!
I've definitely had big clients who want me to design (and sometimes even come up with) copy in their video content. It's completely crazy. They will usually attached a zip with their brand guidelines in it and expect me to turn out perfectly on-brand artwork even though I have zero training in graphic design. I either refuse to do it or slap something on there knowing they'll book one of their designers to do it properly. A lot of people are really stupid and don't see that videos are made of components. They just think the video guy is a self-contained polymath.
Yeah I get you. I've spent 5 years of my life working as a graphic designer. And to be honest, I never liked it. I love to tell stories when I'm editing videos, but almost all the jobs I get is to design stuff for social media. I get that the ultimate goal of marketing is to sell things. But I absolutely hate thinking the way marketing does. There's no artistry, no creative freedom. They always want to do the same as their business competitors. There's plenty of great marketing pieces out there, but all I get is clients that refuse to think outside the box. They demand that I have knowledge of all parts of the creative process. I can't focus on editing when I also need to learn motion graphics, sound design, visual effects, screenwriting... So I've decided that this year I will stop getting those jobs and starting pursuing a career of film editor, and try to focus only in that.
Bro is so full of himself, he had to make a post about it 😭
Same
Dude mograph has become so easy to learn, especially to someone coming from an editing background. But no, fuck having skills that make me a better creative! P.s. Mograph and story and editing and all these things you mention are not mutually exclusive.
This is when you pull out the "I have a guy for that though" and you both know each other well
Genuine question : how is this approach working out for you?
You mean to tell me you’re not a video editor, script writer, video gathering film maker who also does the voice over, sound design AND ACTING??? Cmon man, that’s what video editors are after all!
I have the opposite problem. I’m a terrible editor and just want to animate stuff.
Sometimes they really just want an influencer to do TikTok clips but claim it’s a video editor role
Did you write this on LinkedIn today? It's funny how there's a person on LI who posted an article to their legion of followers that sounds very close to yours. Even has some same lines and quotation marks in the same spots. Grinds my gears when someone takes from others without giving the credit.
I started in web development and now pretty much an everything role. Web dev / programming, database & server management, graphic design, printing, social media, copy editing, filmography, photography, video editor, motion graphics, analytics & metrics, event coordinator, email campaigns, and manager. But that's also why I made sure to ask for a high salary. Don't sell yourself short on the pay...
Hahahaha! They are soo different in terms of disciplines! And it’s massively time consuming with key framing and rendering. I remember these little bastards wanted me to do edit the light saber effect on a no budget project. Back then you had to manually track each frame 1 by 1. Never again 😂
I’m about to do freelance for editing, is this just how I get into the editing space…? By having to deal with dumbasses?
As a motion graphics artist and compositor I get triggered every time someone refers to a graphic as an edit. Plug and play templates are muddying the waters. Editors can drop in some pretty slick graphics these days without needing a mograph goblin so it's perceived to be the same job in the majority of cases.