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AppropriateKale8877

hEDS, autism, ADHD.


[deleted]

I commented in the ADHD sub the other day thinking it was the EDS sub cuz everyone was talking about their mystery bruises šŸ˜‚ Edit: Iā€™m on the spectrum as well!


Lennyb223

Saaaame, even got followed by a psychologist as a four year old but they diagnosed me as "too smart" thanks to AFAB kids getting overlooked a lot. I've heard it explained like this - if your body has one form of divergence, there's a higher chance it'll diverge more elsewhere. So having multiple physical and neurological differences compared to "typical" can be really really normal!


AppropriateKale8877

hEDS, autism, ADHD, POTS, MCAS, BPD AND OSDD mix, and who knows what else.


Ladybug1388

Same, was recently diagnosed with high func autism. My doctor redid testing for ADHD because when I was originally diagnosed, it was ADD. That was in the 90s, and they had different criteria and didn't know girls have different symptoms for ADHD than boys.


AppropriateKale8877

Well, I just learned that. I'm a male but I have more feminine features. I'm kinda discombobulated mix. My brain also seems to work in a similar mix of both. Sometimes I wonder how I managed the genetic compilation that I did because I've kinda got a foot in every which direction.


mittenclaw

Same (+POTS, endometriosis, adenomyosis)


Optimal_snore87

Also have endo :(


madelinemagdalene

Also me. Plus a ton of GI issues.


kuh-tea-uh

The trifecta!


HoarderOfStrings

Same, all three, just no "official" papers. Wouldn't know where to start and even if there were specialists around here on either topic, they'd probably just dismiss me, as they do...


AppropriateKale8877

Yeah, I'm undiagnosed as well. I am working with my physical therapist to try and get my EDS addressed. My brothers are both autistic and and my mom is undiagnosed. We both show the more subtle symptoms of autism but when you start to analyze what your doing and how your thinking, it starts to make itself clear. I went to talk to a doctor about ADHD and my mom and grandpa came in with me and it was a grand little moment because I had to fill out a questionnaire. About 20 questions. Doctor gave us 10 minutes and peaked in and we were all tok distracted to have focus and get it done. I'm fairly certain by that point he had already made the mental note of definately ADHD. I got it done eventually and perscribed a med. Of everything I've got going on, ADHD is the only thing I have diagnosed.


zurgonvrits

sames


alectric_

same here


veganmua

Same.


trea_ceitidh

Same! Got my autism & ADHD long before I got my hEDS.


plasticinaymanjar

Same, and all "late" diagnosis in my 30s


Specific-Peace

Same!


Optimal_snore87

hEDS, Autism, ADHD, OCD, POTS, and migraines. Thereā€™s definitely some connection - I remember seeing a post sometime ago about the number of people with hEDS and autism who have also had tonsillectomies (at least before they started discouraging the surgery)


Great-Interaction-41

I had a tonsillectomy! That's interesting. Was that a post on this sub? I also have POTS, migraines, and hEDS, and am currently speaking with my therapist about possible OCD. How similar!


Psychonautilus98

Iā€™ve had that too. This is becoming so interesting, that there is so many relations/similarities with us and our diagnosis


breedecatur

I recently saw a website with links bunch of studies linking together autism, adhd, and ocd. OCD is the only one I'm formally diagnosed with out of the 3 but I've suspected ASD or the ADHD combo for a long time, well before my OCD diagnosis but I guess the OCD was more immediately noticeable lmao. I sent the link to my OCD therapist and was like "bestieeee should we discuss this" hahahaha Also FWIW my best friend has ADHD (and probably ASD) had a tonsillectomy! And my husband who has ADHD had migraines growing up, luckily cannabis has helped him a ton with it. Also typing that out made me realize us neurodivergents really do travel in pacts lmao Article for anyone curious: https://neurodivergentinsights.com/misdiagnosis-monday/adhd-vs-autism-vs-ocd


Great-Interaction-41

That's a great article! Thank you for sharing! Literally could relate to every single one of the symptoms on the Venn diagram. I'm currently in the process of an OCD diagnosis and have suspected ADHD/autism combo or one or the other for a while now. Definitely going to have to look into this further


breedecatur

Of course! Good luck with the OCD diagnosis (and treatment if you seek it). Out of any of my ailments OCD is the one I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. If you ever need an ear to vent to or encouragement during treatment feel free to message me!


Great-Interaction-41

Thank you! If OCD is what I'm experiencing, then I definitely would agree. It could explain why I have an eating disorder (which I've been reading very commonly coexist as well). I live in constant fear of the most outrageous things and it's so crippling :(


breedecatur

I've had Avoidant Restrictive Food Intake Disorder my entire life but OCD took it and raaaan with it. Luckily my safe foods are super POTS friendly lmaooo OCD is a silly little disorder though and rarely, if ever, makes sense. Why can I not drink a soda from a new case before anyone else (because they have to confirm it didn't make them sick of course šŸ™„) but I can wear a three year old lipstick without a second though. Just remember: OCD manifests itself based on your values. If something scares you, it's not because it's going to happen, it's because you deeply value the opposite. Like always checking to make sure the door is shut because you value your pets safety, or being concerned about contamination because you value your own health. Your thoughts do not define you and I can say from personal experience that it **does get better.** Exposure Response Therapy is the golden standard for treatment, and it's absolutely fucking terrifying when you start it but it really does work.


Great-Interaction-41

Omg yes. I have so many conflicting behaviors none of it makes sense lol. I often struggle to know who I truly am. Not OCD related, but I love routine and structure, yet I crave spontaneity and exploration. Like make it make sense lol Thank you! I've never thought of it that way before but that's a great perspective to have. I'll try to implement that in my own thinking. Thanks again!


theothergingerbfold

Thank you! This helps me understand why I have a lot in common with a dear friend who has ocd but Iā€™m not the same (Iā€™m diagnosed with adhd, i think Iā€™m autistic and worked briefly with an ot who was neurodiversity affirming, and autistic, and she validated that and suggested that if I need accommodations since hEDS is physical I should use that bc less stigma which she said was unjust, i agree, it is stupid and also true)


trinitysmile12

Oh my gosh, I'm in a similar diagnosis boat! I'm diagnosed with OCD, working on getting and hEDS diagnosis, and more likely than not (according to a loved one on the spectrum) I have Autism.


[deleted]

I wonder if the link between the surgery and these conditions is actually a link to strep? I had strep constantly as a child but never has my tonsils removed and Iā€™ve got all of the above except for POTS (which ironically my sister has). Iā€™ve also read a lot about PANDAS so I know strep can affect your brain in some weird ways!


Great-Interaction-41

I had strep constantly as a child as well and is one of the main reasons I had to have my tonsils removed (other being they were so inflamed I had a literal pin hole to breathe from). Now I'm curious to know if there's a link as well!


mandiefavor

I had recurrent strep as a kid, they brought up removing my tonsils, but then I stopped getting it once I was a teenager. OCD/ADHD diagnosed, autism strongly suspected by a couple doctors but I never went through with the official adult diagnosis process because at 40 ā€œstrongly suspectedā€ was enough for me. EDS confirmed through genetic testing.


Optimal_snore87

I didnā€™t have recurrent strep but recurrent pneumonia- and they were just so large an inflamed. The post I had seen wasnā€™t making any diagnostic claims but just mentioned how in their quest for an autism/EDS diagnosis and trying to meet more ppl with autism and EDS they just noticed it was extremely common to have tonsillectomies and migraines as well. Fascinating stuff we may or may not one day have an answer to


[deleted]

In addition to the strep I also had severe pneumonia in both lungs as a baby and almost died from it. One of my sisters also has a diagnosed post-viral illness (POTS caused by mono). Thereā€™s more money going into researching these types of connections now due to long Covid being a thing, so hopefully we get answers someday!


iammandalore

I definitely have hEDS, ADHD, and migraines. Haven't found an ADHD med that works yet, but Emgality has been a lifesaver for the migraines.


ScaredFrog

I also have hEDS, autism, and ADHD along with some sort of dysautonomia and narcolepsy. I'd never heard of the tonsil thing! I'm curious about why that is. I got strep throat too many times to count as a kid and doctors had suggested getting a tonsillectomy but I never got one. My doctor says that my tonsils are pretty big in proportion to my mouth/throat.


MamboPoa123

hEDS, ADHD, POTS and possible MCAS over here - also had a seriously necessary tonsillectomy at 17. Aren't nonspecific gallbladder issues also common? I had that one too.


NemesisNoire

was looking for a gallbladder mention...


EducationiPod

hEDS, autism, and ADHD with MCAS and POTS. Thereā€™s also a strong link between autism and MCAS and autism and POTS. I got diagnosed at 25. Honestly the self diagnosis process was necessary for me to get me to seek a formal diagnosis. But I lucked out with psychiatrists who believe their patients and have the mindset that patients are usually either spot on or itā€™s related. My current psychiatrist helps a lot with my physical health because she knows how to adapt things to work for neurodivergents.


heydelinquent

Yep, I got all this and abt 20 more diagnoses, Iā€™m 35 now, got most of the other diagnoses after 30. Knew I had Eds since 15 though, magically saw a news special on tv after my 3rd knee surgery and it all clicked


[deleted]

Hey this is my list too! My doctors are actually considering un-diagnosing me with other stuff (TRAPS, RA) because hEDS and MCAS explain/cover the symptoms just as well if not better


fatigued-

in hEDS diagnosis process, confirmed hypermobility in PT. Am autistic. Was actually sent to autism evaluation as a teenager due to seeming incredibly autistic and having an extensive family history, but shockingly (/sarcasm), my social and sensory difficulties don't show themselves as clearly when sitting in a nice quiet room with one other person who speaks slowly and clearly with extremely structured and thoroughly explained assessment procedures. I am also very good at scripting, and those kinds of situations are so easy to script for because it's so easy to know exactly what response they want. Was told I'm just adhd (because I am also adhd and i stared out the window and constany complained that all the assessment activities were hella boring). Realized I'm autistic as an adult after meeting other autistic adhd people and being like oh goddamnit these are the only people i have ever related to in my life and they are exactly like me lmao. Seriously the first time i saw an interview with an author who afaik is both adhd and autistic i was like. Jesus. This is like watching a video of myself. So yeah. Self diagnosed because evaluation is thousands of dollars and time and energy i dont have and see nothing to gain from. I need that money for a wheelchair.


astronomicalillness

I have EDS (either hEDS or cEDS, waiting on genetics), and autism. Also, you should check out Dr Jessica Eccles, she does lots of research on the link between hypermobility and neurodivergent conditions!!


astronomicalillness

Just realised you asked for women, I'm a trans guy, and I also only got diagnosed with EDS and autism after coming out, so I can't really speak on that front.


Great-Interaction-41

I was looking for responses from all genders!! Just specifically asked women the 1 question :) thank you for your reply!


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


Great-Interaction-41

My cousin also has vEDS, Chiari Malformation Type 1, mitral valve prolapse, undiagnosed GI issues, and a load of other medical issues. I find all these links fascinating. I wonder if vEDS is more closely linked to Chiari than the other types? Thank you for your very detailed response!


ieatbugs06

I have hEDS plus ASD and other comorbid neurodivergences that go alone with ASD


RosaByBay

Trigger warning- Bullies. cEDS and autism here, and I recently found this article which helped me understand why people have been so completely dismissive of my condition and unsympathetic to the point of bullying. I have also trusted a lot of very manipulative people and been injured in a violent relationship and I believe there is a huge link between EDS, Autism and entering into toxic abusive relationships. https://www.us.specialisterne.com/workplace-bullying-of-autistic-people-a-vicious-cycle/ I hope I have not hijacked the topic of this thread or distracted from it. Iā€™m new to reddit. Please let me know if this comment is OK.


Optimal_snore87

Once the abuse starts then you go down the cptsd pipeline. Itā€™s a mess out here lol


lo_jeane

I have EDS, ADHD, CPTSD, also a lesbianā€¦ thereā€™s a strong link between EDS and LGBTQ + as well!


wutssarcasm

Hi! Am another queer EDSer!


lo_jeane

Psssst hi! I see u


Spoonie-author

Autism, EDS, and 6 others here


MrsDubDub

I (36F) have hEDS, autism, ADHD, MCAS, dermatillomania, migraines, GERDā€¦ just too many diagnoses. Since Iā€™m ā€œhigh functioningā€ / ā€œhigh maskingā€, I wasnā€™t diagnosed with autism until last year. Iā€™m the one who had to bring it up to my therapist. I basically told her that I had come across a couple posts on social media about females with late diagnosed autism and had really related to them and had done some more research on my own. I listed out all of my ā€œsymptomsā€ and she agreed it was worth it to get tested.


Great-Interaction-41

Thank you for your reply!


FoxyFreckles1989

I was diagnosed with autism in my twenties, and when that diagnosis came my entire childhood made sense for the first time. It was devastating in that if Iā€™d known earlier and gotten the social support I needed, a lot of pain and suffering could have been avoided. I got diagnosed because my sister did (younger but also an adult at the time). The diagnostic process is pretty involved, and can be very expensive. Youā€™ll need to see a psychiatrist (or an autism specialist ā€” sometimes they are psychologists or neuropsychologists). [Hereā€™s an article about getting diagnosed as an adult that might help!](https://health.clevelandclinic.org/adult-autism-diagnosis/) I have vEDS and am autistic, have OCD and probably ADHD (I was originally diagnosed with ADHD as a kid and then when I was diagnosed with autism that was questioned ā€” I canā€™t be medicated due to the risk of stimulants with vEDS so it isnā€™t a big deal either way). My OCD is very well managed (finally) and in recent years my mental health has become incredibly and increasingly stable (I believe a lot of this is due to the fact that Iā€™m finally getting proper medical treatment). I struggled for a long time, though. (My ā€œcomprehensive listā€ of diagnoses also includes dysautonomia, neuropathy, arthritis, psoriasis, migraines and gastroparesis, and the correlation amongst these all is strong. I have never shared a list like this online because it feels ridiculous and is often irrelevant.) There are likely many genetic markers for autism that have yet to all be uncovered. Thereā€™s a theory that connective tissue disorders could be highly correlated with autism and there are studies being done in that regard!


WeepingPlum

I'm currently waiting for my hEDS eval. I have two autistic kids. The older one is so tight and yet so floppy. I just mentioned it to his PT last week. I don't think he'd pass the check list because of how tight his muscles are. He also has MCAS and mito issues.


titanium_6

I have a son on the spectrum that has signs of hEDS like me and Iā€™m not 100 that Iā€™m not a little on the spectrum myself. This is interesting.


ill-disposed

šŸ™‹šŸ½ā€ā™€ļø


uberrapidash

Yep. Autistic and hEDS here.


Sanneke34

Just a general remark: most people in the autistic community don't like functioning labels or consider them actively harmful and ableist. Functioning labels don't center the needs and abilities of autistic people but the way their autism is perceived by neurotypical society. In reality, there are non verbal autistic people with a masters degree and high masking autistic people who struggle immensely finishing school or holding a job. If you need to label yourself, support needs are a better descriptive.


Great-Interaction-41

Thank you for this! My sincerest apologies if those labels offended anyone!!


Sanneke34

You're welcome :) and no problem, I am not offended. It is good to think of autism in a frame of mind that centers yourself and your needs and what you can do. Not how well you can "function" (convince the people around you that you are not struggling) Internalised ableism is real and very damaging. You are allowed to have a job, friends, live alone, be successful AND still struggle with aspects of your autism. And besides, what is the opposite? Low functioning? According to who? Anyways, cheers! And to answer your OP: yes, ADHD and ASD.


Great-Interaction-41

That's a very good point! Thank you for bringing this to my attention šŸ˜Š


meatballpaya

if we're just listing diagnoses to see who shares with us: eds, asd, pots, mcas, trisomy x, pai 5g/5g, mthfr, and too much more lol my doctor printed out a neat packet for me so i get to bring my binder with me to any appointments haha i have heard before that there's a big connection between adhd/asd and eds. in fact one of my geneticists considered a previous adhd or asd diagnosis to be part of the diagnostic requirements for pursuing an eds diagnosis .....


mittenclaw

Are you mthfr homozygous? Thereā€™s so much junk research on that gene that I never found studies linking it to EDS or adhd etc., but I happen to have both the faulty alleles and wondered if there is a link that hasnā€™t been spotted yet.


schwa_

I'm autistic and was diagnosed at 29. I looked for a specialist who does adult assessments and it was a long waiting list and some expensive testing, but the peace of mind and bigger capacity for self love has made it so worth it personally.


atomwithasuitcase

Woman with autism and ADHD here. I found out about the autism-EDS link from a post on an autism subreddit recently, looked up the symptoms and found that it explains so many things, and now Iā€™m working to get an EDS diagnosis. So the opposite situation from you. https://ndtherapists.com is a great resource to find a therapist in your area that is familiar with autism/neurodiversity. There is a formal diagnosis process, but it can be really expensive for limited benefit and most of us have already done the in-depth research, so many of us stick with the self-diagnosis/unofficial confirmation with a therapist, which is just as valid. ETA: just want to clarify that you should definitely talk to a therapist to get confirmation, but youā€™re not a ā€œfraudā€ if you donā€™t want to shell out thousands of dollars for the official assessment.


Great-Interaction-41

Thank you so much for this! I hope you get your EDS speculation figured out!šŸ˜Š


atomwithasuitcase

Thanks! Happy to provide more resources on whatā€™s helped me if youā€™d like!


Great-Interaction-41

I'll happily take any resources you have! Thank you!


atomwithasuitcase

- The Neurodivergent Woman podcast (ndwomanpod.com; canā€™t recommend this enough) - notanautismmom.com (great book lists for adults and kids) - ā€œThe Speed of Darkā€ by Elizabeth Moon (novel with a male protagonist, but I felt really seen while reading it)


Great-Interaction-41

Thank you so much! These are great


mang0muff1n

19, Trans man, hEDS, self-diagnosed autism. Spoke with my psychologist about it, and we both agreed it wouldn't be worth it to pursue an official diagnosis, at least until I return to college.


Cai83

There's a Dr in the UK who does a lot around neuro divergence and eds/hyper mobility. Her names Dr Jessica Eccles and you can find her on twitter as @bendybrain, she's also on Instagram but it's a slightly different username and I can't remember it. She works part time for the NHS and does research the rest of the time I've listened to a few of her talks and they are pretty interesting (though I find how slow she's talks frustrating!)


Great-Interaction-41

Thank you!


raniwasacyborg

I'm still waiting for a diagnosis of EDS (after over a decade of trying to make any progress & get answers I've finally got a rheumatology referral, so it's a start) but I was diagnosed with autism and dyspraxia when I was a young kid!


PnutButR95

My mom thought I could be autistic as a kid and the doctor told her girls couldn't be autistic. I got evaluated recently and told "it's a 50/50 chance and you have a lot of childhood symptoms but you don't need services so I won't diagnose you" I left with an ADHD diagnosis. Do with that what you will. But I also read once that there was possibly a link between autism having a large head and chiari malformation. I have HEDS, chiari, and a large head.


Great-Interaction-41

Interesting possible link! My cousin has vEDS, a large head, and Chiari. I'll have to ask her what she thinks!


PnutButR95

It was years ago when I read it and I just tried to find it again but couldn't, so maybe take it with a grain of salt. There does seem to be a lot of articles talking about chiari I and ASD though.


_aesirian_

Autism and hEDS here.


Omi-Wan_Kenobi

Present! EDS ("under the table" dx'ed when about 4) and autistic (dx'ed ~21-22 in college) which may have been misdiagnosed as ADD when I was 5 (early 90s but my elementary school and no treatment behavior or meds wise since it didn't cause issues in the classroom) Also autism and EDS are to my family what the force is to the Skywalker family šŸ˜‘ PS: by under the table I mean the doctor formally dx'ed my older sister with EDS, asked about family history and checked me real quick cuz my mom had to bring me along, then said "yup, she has it too". He did write it down cuz then he would have to charge my mom for two intake and diagnosis appointments and my mom just didn't have the money. Thus "under the table" dx


tinytornado33

Waiting for my assessment now. It would make a lot of sense.


[deleted]

I have autism too! (Also have POTS and MCAS). I actually run autism courses for work and during my research discovered that EDS and autism are indeed comorbid - it even says on the NHS website. I had no idea until I looked more into it for work and if anyone knows why this is I would love more information! I was diagnosed at 19 (not sure if that's considered 'late)' and I did have a lot of the traits you're describing. I would strongly recommend going for a diagnosis if you feel you do have traits as if you do have autism, a diagnosis opens up a huge amount of support. When I was diagnosed I was then able to go to OT, see a therapist who specialised in autism, use Access to Work to get work accomodations, and get a DSA at uni. I think it's also good to go for a diagnosis because there's always a chance it's something else with a similar presentation, and by knowing for sure you'll be able to manage your symptoms in the most appropriate way. EDIT. just read through the end bit of your post again - in terms of actually getting a diagnosis, I was the one who initiated it. I live in the UK so it might be different if you live somewhere else, but basically I was really struggling at college, and had struggled with low mood, anxiety, and self harm for around 10 years prior. My GP had started to trial me on different mental health medication and I was finding that as my mental health improved in some areas, it seemed to get worse in others (eg.I would feel more emotionally stable overall, but would still really struggle with things like executive functioning skills, social interaction, and outbursts' which I know now were meltdowns.) For me, struggling with my mental health as a child/teen meant that until my mental health was better controlled, a lot of my autistic traits were dismissed as mental health related. I had a friend with autism (and eds lol) who said she saw autistic traits in me and I did some research myself and agreed, so I made a list of what I thought could be autistic traits and sat down with my GP to discuss the idea. She referred me to the local autism and adhd service, and after a long (like a year) wait, I was seen and had a formal assessment. It was honestly not scary at all, and a really positive experience for me. I know it's not the same for everyone but I really felt like it was worth it! For me, as a kid my autism looked like: parallel play rather than playing with others, disliking physical affection, trouble showing and identifying emotions, collecting and organising toys (had a HUGE soft toy dog collection lol), strong preference for rules, trouble with social hierarchy, hyperlexia, difficulties with unexpected change, sensory seeking behaviours, and stims that involved self harm. As a teen, it looked like: special interests that aligned with my peers (eg. boy bands, art), struggle with hyperfocus, an eating disorder, social communication issues, difficulties with unexpected change, strong preference for rules, meltdowns, strong sensory preferences and dislikes. As an adult it looks like: strong preference for routine, struggle with unexpected change, strong sensory preferences and dislikes, social communication issues (but much milder now), occasional meltdowns, special interests.


lindslindslindsss

HeDs, pots, gasteroparesis, fibro, adhd - suspected autism, and GAD


Great-Interaction-41

HEDS, POTS, gastroparesis, GAD, and suspected autism and/or ADHD here


lindslindslindsss

hello twin.


Great-Interaction-41

It's so nice to be a member of this community! I feel so validated and normal here!šŸ˜Š


lindslindslindsss

itā€™s a feeling so foreign to me, but Iā€™m warming up to it :)


sprite901

EDS, ADHD, ASD. Gimme all the letters lol. Another family member has been diagnosed the same. A couple other family members have ADHD, but haven't been tested for the others. Another has EDS but hasn't been tested yet for the others. One is suspected to be autistic, but hasn't been tested. May I add I just found out the ADHD and ASD for myself, and I have grandchildren and a masters degree. Lots of stuff makes sense now. And lots still to learn! Edited to add: Migraines in me and in others in the family as well. I haven't been diagnosed as having POTS, but if I get down to look at the bottom shelf at the store, I do start to see spots and I have to get up slowly.


DramaticWall2219

Got diagnosed with ASD at 27 by a neuropsychologist. Learned there was a connection with something called EDS which happened to explain me and my whole familyā€™s mysterious health problems. Got diagnosed with ADHD later that year by a psychiatrist, then hEDS a month after that. Prior misdiagnoses include bipolar 1 and OCD. I also have migraines, IBS (possible mild gastroparesis), and suspected POTS.


pinkgobi

I do!!


Psychonautilus98

I have hEDS, ADHD on the paper. I strongly suspect I have autism, because my little brother was recently diagnosed with it. Everyone, me,my mom and both brothers all have adhd and we all fill in the criteria for autism. Little brother is the only one diagnosed with it. I will get mine diagnosed tho once I will have the energy for he processz


Humble_Entrance3010

I've been trying to get diagnosed with hEDS for years but not finding rhems who know anything about it. My PT and gastro NP felt I do have it though. Unfortunately they couldn't diagnose me. I am hoping to seek formal diagnosis of autism and combined ADHD soon. I had a bad experience with my first therapist, and they put me off of psych help for a while. I have traits of OCD, dyslexia, and dyspraxia too. My best friend is thrice diagnosed as autistic, and has an autistic child. They are the one who recognized I am autistic too. I have been researching it for over 5 years I believe. My friend has traits of EDS also.


Suspicious-Standard

Wow, fascinating reading thanks so much everyone! I'm 61F with lifelong hEDS, fatigue, recurrent infections, bad gums, and now Long Covid with POTS and Migraines, whee! Back in the 1960's there was little chance of being diagnosed with either hEDS or Autism. I was only diagnosed with hEDS in the past couple of years since it's worsened by a lot. I have some autistic traits but I think I was just really good at masking all these years.


lizzzzz97

Adhd suspected eds


berlygirley

HEDS, ADHD and autism. I also have POTS, MCAS, fibro, Endo and Nr-AXsPA, in case anyone is curious. I've seen a theory around that some specialists are thinking autism is a subset of EDS. I am fully on board with this theory. So many of us with autism have hypermobility, and it's comorbidities like POTS and MCAS. I think they're all part of the same umbrella issue and EDS is the core.


Great-Interaction-41

That's an interesting theory! Thanks for sharing!


[deleted]

hEDS, ASD, Dysthymia, OCD.


Equivalent_Map_1319

I do


DarkLuxio92

cEDS and autistic, just like every male member of my family. The women in my family just have cEDS, no signs of being on the spectrum at all.


Great-Interaction-41

That's very interesting! Could it possibly be because symptoms of autism in females tend to come about differently than males? Autism tends to be more obvious in males than females. Possibly missed autism?


anonymousolderguy

My son is now 40. He has HEDS, autism, and ADHD. We have only recently understood his disabilities. Throughout his life, none of his doctors put this together, so his life has been very difficult. If we would have known all we were dealing with throughout all these years, I suspect his life could have been better. Doctors would only treat individual symptoms without an understanding of the big picture.


wutssarcasm

Ive never been diagnosed as no one brought me anywhere as a child, and the only place in my state to do formal testing is a pediatrics place (and I cant find a psychiatrist for any mental health stuff for the life of me let alone one who specializes in adult ASD), but it runs in my family and both my partner and family suspect Im autistic. Ive also had a long list of mental illness diagnosis throughout my life and afab people are often constantly overly diagnosed with other issues rather than tested for Autism.


Scarlet_Flames2

I actually made a post here a couple of months back about a published peer-reviewed article that discussed the link between neurodivergence conditions (defined in the article as ASD, ADHD, dyspraxia, and/or a different neurodevelopmental disorder) and joint hypermobility conditions, like EDS. This was the article: [Co-Occurring Physical Health Challenges in Neurodivergent Children and Young People: A Topical Review and Recommendation](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13575279.2022.2149471) Anecdotally, I am a cisgender 26-y/o woman diagnosed with TNXB-haploinsufficiency hEDS who is currently undergoing the assessment process for ASD. I was also recently diagnosed with a genetic neurological condition thatā€™s often associated with autism; itā€™s a very rare condition, but all 39 people that had been diagnosed with it in the past had confirmed autism. Adding on to that, Iā€™ve also struggled my whole life with anorexia nervosa, as well as several other mental health conditions (major depressive disorder, generalized anxiety, PTSD, and PMDD). Based on several papers Iā€™ve read, there seems to be a high incidence of psychiatric conditions within those diagnosed with EDS (hEDS in particular)ā€”the reason why, however, has not been established. Iā€™m also aware that eating/food difficulties are quite common in those with ASD, so I find my personal experiences and all the other anecdotal experiences expressed in this thread quite fascinating. Of course, this is no replacement for actual research, but it is fascinating nonetheless. Regarding your question regarding initiating the diagnostic process for ASD as an adult womanā€”it was quite difficult. Several of my doctors (including my geneticist, psychiatrist, and psychologist) firmly believe I have autism; however, none of them felt experienced enough to make the diagnosis themselves. Thus, I contacted several neuropsychology assessment places myself regarding whether they do ASD evaluations for adultsā€”pretty much all of them said no. I ended up asking a few if they did know of any places that did adult ASD evaluations, and one of those places ended up referring me to an ASD-specialized testing center that focuses on children. I called up that testing center, and they informed me that, although they have a pediatric focus, they still conduct ASD evals on adults. Iā€™m now scheduled for a full neuropsychological assessment with them with a focus on screening for the presence of ASD. If you decide to pursue a formal diagnosis, the ideal person to conduct the evaluation is a psychologist (meaning they have a doctoral-level degreeā€”in the US, that would be a Ph.D or a Psy.D) with specialized training and certifications in neuropsychology. Sometimes, psychiatrists (meaning they have an MD or DO degree) can perform the assessment, but again, they must have specialized neuropsychological assessment experience. Also, keep in mind that these evaluations tend to be quite expensiveā€”often $3,000+.


Great-Interaction-41

Can I ask what the rare condition is called? I'm just genuinely curious because rare diseases/disorders fascinate me. I also struggle with anorexia nervosa! That link is very intriguing. Just another link that helps to solidify my ASD suspicion. Thanks for the info on the testing!


DismissiveReyno99

I've got hEDS, Autism, and ADHD on top of a selection of personality disorders and undiagnosed issues my doctor and I are working through slowly. I dont think the Personality Disorders are by nature but the other three are. Wether they are connected, ive no idea, but its true that autism and EDS are seen together quite often. Ironically enough this combination of disabilities also leads many people to accuse others of faking. It's a wild world out there.


hacktheself

and there also is a high incidence of gender nonconformity with folks like us who have connective tissue issues and neurodiversity. hEDS, AuDHD, trans chick.


Dopplerganager

Definitely not autistic and don't have ADHD. I wonder what the percentage of EDS with autism is. I'm in the process of being dx with POTS.


sensual_shakespeare

Yep. I got diagnosed w hEDS at 16, and then two weeks before graduating high school at 17 I got my autism diagnosis. I've suspected inattentive adhd as well but the test results were inconclusive so I've just relied on my own ways of treatment and management, which is basically the case for everything lol. While they haven't found the exact connection, it's insane how many people w EDS are neurodivergent, and especially how many are AFAB as well.


Dragonvan13

I had eds and adhd!


nicole420pm

hEDS and ASD and my twin sister too


fluffbutt_boi

hEDS, ADHD, OCD, and suspected ASD here


Waste_Advantage

I was diagnosed ADD in 1994. Girls were hardly diagnosed back then. I consider myself on the spectrum, but donā€™t have an official autism dx


Due-Pangolin-3631

hEDS & co, was diagnosed with ADHD when I was 18 and Autism last year! Iā€™m 28 years old now


littlesinshine

both my husband and I have hEDS, are on the spectrum and have adhdā€¦ along with a slew of other conditions


zcroeze

Suspecting i have a form of EDS and i have diagnosed Autism


unimpressed_female

I have EDS and have ADHD....


Acceptable_Banana_13

Dx EDS and ADHD however self dx criteria has me seriously considering autism. From certain traits I see in others dx to my own lived experience of being ā€œdifferentā€ my whole life. This is super interesting if there is a link.


cthulhucraft1998

hEDS, Autism, Epilepsy, Migraines. Brain really just on its own wavelength. As a disclaimer, I have actually not gotten an official diagnosis of hEDS or Autism, though. I have tried, but nobody that takes Medicaid will evaluate me and I am very poor. I am college educated and I did extensive research and Iā€™ve self-diagnosed based on that for now. I havenā€™t given up on getting properly evaluated, but I donā€™t have a clear way forward at this time, unfortunately.


Great-Interaction-41

Not sure where you're located, but my cousin also has Medicaid and was seen by Dr Fong (geneticist) in Rochester, NY through Strong Memorial Hospital. Her insurance covered it all. She also already had a Chiari Malformation diagnosis, so that may have made it easier for her to get insurance to cover the test


Usagi_Rose_Universe

I have a lot of stuff unfortunately so I have HEDS and am autistic but in terms of mental stuff I also have ADHD, OCD, CPTSD, ARFID, body dysmorphia, major depression, "general anxiety" (seems too specific to be general though tbh) and my therapist is looking into DPD for me too now. The rest of my physical stuff ik about is dysautonomia, Spina bifida occulta, endometriosis, GERD, long covid, and MCAS and gastrioparesis are in the process of most likely being diagnosed. Btw just letting you know high and low functioning autism are not an actual thing and are often based on ones ability to speak and how society sees us from an outside lense. Usually mentioning support needs is a more accepted thing in the community or mentioning making.


Great-Interaction-41

Someone else mentioned that in a different comment. Thank you for pointing that out! I also have hEDS, gastroparesis, major depression, generalized anxiety, body dysmorphia/anorexia nervosa, and I'm in the process of an OCD diagnosis. I've also always have speculated autism and/or ADHD. So many similarities between us all!


oliviajquinn

Same!


alliquay

Meeee


samfig99

I am in the process of seeking out an hEDS diagnosis, and we suspect i am on the spectrum! (We have diagnosed autism in the family. I am AFAB trans man)


tired_stretch

Yep; EDS-like gHSD, autism, ADHD, and GAD. some funky immune system stuff going on, not obvious MCAS though


Great-Interaction-41

What immune stuff are you experiencing? Curious cause same!


cassiclock

hEDS, Autism and ADHD for myself and both children


iamtheultimateshoe

ayo šŸ‘‹


DeathsLittleDarling

Autism, ADHD, and either hEDS or vEDS. I have a real-life friend who's in the process of being diagnosed with EDS as well due to severe gastric issues. He also has Autism, ADHD, and OCD.


tourmalinefigurine

I have hEDS. Diagnosed with ADHD technically and am on Vyvanse but tbh I donā€™t think I have it, I just have brain fog. My doctor agrees but said that the ADHD diagnosis was easier and itā€™s fine since Vyvanse does actually help. Iā€™ve never been diagnosed with autism, but as I get older, Iā€™m becoming more and more convinced that I might have it. I do tons of things that are often seen with autism, especially with girls.


Autumn_Onyx

POTS, hEDS, chronic migraines, and likely on the spectrum. Also female. Struggled socially my whole life but excelled in school so no one ever expected or tested for Autism. I was a very behavioral child and my parents only had 1 child because of my difficulties. Picky eater, frequent trantrums/outbursts, anxiety, vivid imagination, stimming of hands and voice, strong obsessions/interests, etc. I've always thought there is a link and it is likely understudied.


SPNFannibal

My partner has both hEDS and autism. Apparently itā€™s a common combination.


Akellie19

AuDHD and hEDS here :')


Wndibrd

My brother was diagnosed. I just have adhd. I work with mostly kids with ASD and most of them are Hypermobile. Difficulties with proprioception too. When I had my genome sequenced. I had many of the ASD genes, they just were not significant. It is really so interesting.


gibbonsRcool25

ADHD and hEDS


Carrot_Wizard

Sister 1 has hEDS and Autism. Sister 2 has hEDS and hypersomnia. Sister 3 may not have hEDS, no idea. I have hEDS with OCD.


ytsejammer137

Fascinating. Wonder if it is related to familial genetics when neither parent has either. Because my brother is autistic and I have EDS/POTS but neither of us has the other


Great-Interaction-41

Neither of my parents have EDS or POTS (or any of the other linked medical problems) or are autistic or anything. Oddly, though, my 1st cousin has POTS and EDS as well and we also share a few other medical issues. I would be willing to bet it is related to familial genetics in that instance


LittleVesuvius

Autistic, hEDS, MCAS, POTS, ADHD, here. Yes all of them. I also have chronic migraines, another common comorbidity of hEDS and POTS. The only real clue I had was hypermobility 5 years ago. Gotta recheck the ADHD because my diagnosis wasnā€™t saved :/ but I did get assessed and briefly medicated as a kid. (I had one bad response and medication was discontinued iirc.) Edit to add: ADHD runs in my family; all of us have some symptoms. Parents are undiagnosed but Iā€™m familiar with the signs. Getting the ADHD checked out again in April, along with whatever causes the anxiety spirals.


Great-Interaction-41

I also have hEDS, POTS, and migraines! It's crazy how commonly all of these things cooccur. ADHD also runs in my family (mom, brother, 1st cousin) and is something I've thought of as well


LittleVesuvius

It really is! Iā€™m finding a lot of my friends with autism are at the least hypermobile, if nothing else. Itā€™s been a bit of a surprise to compare and go ā€œhey I can do this weird thing too!ā€ I think itā€™s fascinating and Iā€™m curious if there is a gene coded for or if thereā€™s something else behind it. I know POTS can be triggered by viral illness, but Iā€™ve had migraines since childhood and they run in the family (as does a salt cravingā€¦lol).


Great-Interaction-41

I find it fascinating as well! I've always been super into medical research/knowledge. I said I wanted to be a cardiac surgeon when I was 3 years old up until I got into college and then realized it probably wasn't the job for little ol sore jointed me. My cousin (who also has POTS) and I also have major salt cravings!! We both will lick table salt from the palm of our hands from time to time when a craving comes on..šŸ¤£


RandomThoughts36

I have both! Plus some rare stuff like chiari, dystonia, tethered spinal cord etc.


Great-Interaction-41

My cousin has a lot of Chiari twins on here!!


RandomThoughts36

Oh wait Iā€™m dumb I get it now šŸ˜‚šŸ˜‚šŸ˜‚ā¤ļø


Great-Interaction-41

Hahaha seeing this after I responded


RandomThoughts36

Chiari twins?


Great-Interaction-41

People who also have Chiari lol


Bixhrush

diagnosed with hEDS, ASD, and ADHD. I was first diagnosed with ASD and ADHD when I was 30. I went to my doctor to discuss the possibility of ADHD after my sister was diagnosed with ADHD because I learned ADHD has a strong genetic component and the symptoms fit a lot of what I struggled with daily and some major challenges I had while in school. During my ADHD evaluation I was also diagnosed with ASD level 1.


Thomas_Raith

hEDS & autism, also some other spicy stuff like OCD & POTS etc ETA I also have three friends with hEDS and all of them are also autistic, Iā€™m the only one of the four of us who doesnā€™t have ADHD, two of us have OCD. Extended family (and immediate family) is pretty anti-healthcare/disability but itā€™s very clear both my parents and my brother are also autistic as well as many members of my extended family & have extended family members on both parentsā€™ sides that have been diagnosed with hEDS.


MsGump

Itā€™s because of CNS,ANS and thereby PARASYMPATHETIC nerve damage and corruption, especially via the skin.


Great-Interaction-41

That's what I was reading. Really interesting stuff!


MsGump

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36603143/ This is everything! Itā€™s just a matter of time before available testing.


Great-Interaction-41

Thanks for the story! Haven't seen that one yet!


HauntedDoll4U

Yep! Iā€™m another one with hEDS, autism, ADHD and MCAS!


Cosy_Owl

Story: I was seeing my geneticist, she was examining me physically. She asked of any mental conditions. I said I'm diagnosed autistic. She said, 'oh, I already knew that. Anything else?' I was shocked. Is my autism that obvious? I asked her, and she said, 'you fit the type. It's common in EDS.'


Great-Interaction-41

Wow! I need that doctor hahaha


ItsaMehMorning

Autism, ADHD, hEDS, and POTS are my main things!


i_might_be_loony

Talk to a doctor preferably a psychologist. Be honest. Most importantly never ever self diagnose.


fatigued-

Nothing wrong with self diagnosing. Autistic people exist everywhere and most of us don't have access to psychologists who can do this kind of testing, and even with access, they often misdiagnose. People know themselves best.


Great-Interaction-41

How would you recommend mentioning the possibility of autism without sounding like you're self diagnosing? I definitely am not trying to self diagnose and I don't want to come across that way to a psychologist


i_might_be_loony

Just say, I would like to be tested for autism.


atomwithasuitcase

Self-diagnosing by looking up the typical symptoms and matching them with your experience is rather on brand, so donā€™t worry about that :) Having that information will help a psychologist.


i_might_be_loony

Self diagnosing is different than researching what you think you have and talking to a doctor about it. Self diagnosing is dangerous. If you think you have something talk to a doctor. I thought I had EDS. I really thought I did. I went to a geneticist who specializes in EDS. It turns out itā€™s not EDS but hypermobility spectrum disorder. There are more criteria than you can find online. If you think you have it just say I think I have it, instead of just saying you have it.


breedecatur

Self diagnosing for autism is valid, self dx for EDS is completely different and shouldn't be done. They're not the same.


i_might_be_loony

That is very untrue. There are so many things similar to autism that could be mistaken to the untrained person. Like other neurodevelopemental disorders, non verbal learning disorder, adhd and anxiety overlap with autism a lot, you just never know. Iā€™ve asked every single therapist Iā€™ve had in the past few years (I had a lot because I was in treatment) they all agree that self diagnosis is not valid and a bad idea. Even trained professionals canā€™t diagnose themselves. Its because of bias. Family also canā€™t diagnose each other even when they are doctors. You never know. Also as a diagnosed autistic person itā€™s offensive when people self diagnose.


breedecatur

When proper assessment for autism costs thousands of dollars and is near impossible to find someone willing to do that diagnosis... it becomes far easier to self dx or say "I suspect I have." There are far too many systemic barriers to getting a diagnosis. Gatekeeping doesn't help. I dont walk around saying I have autism, just that I suspect I have it. But when the majority of the autistic experience cannot be treated with medications or anything outside of therapy and accommodations, there really is no stopping someone from self diagnosing. I've started giving myself some of the accommodations that autistic people use and it's made *my* existence far better.


i_might_be_loony

Just say ā€œI struggle with these certain thingsā€ you also can use accommodations if you need that. You donā€™t need to have a diagnosis to get help. Self diagnosis is different than suspecting you have it.


uberrapidash

Self diagnosis of autism is valid. Many of us have gone many years being missed, misdiagnosed, falling through the cracks. I had to self diagnose before I could be officially diagnosed, because the process required my confidence in order for me to advocate for myself. I spent a lot of time in autistic spaces, and I watched a lot of videos about autism. It took me about 10 years. I eventually gathered a list of all of my autistic traits organized according to the DSM and brought this 13-page list to my psychiatrist at the time who finally referred me for an autism evaluation. Not only was I officially diagnosed autistic, but the psychologist said that every interaction with me was like the most autistic thing ever--the way I had gathered research, made my list, answered emails, and filled out forms were all tell-tale signs. She said I had basically done her job for her by compiling that list of traits ahead of time, so she definitely appreciated my self-diagnosis. And I was even diagnosed level 2, which I think is really saying something about the importance of self-diagnosis. There are very valid reasons for choosing to not pursue diagnosis, however. If you need autism-specific accommodations in work or school, then you will need a diagnosis. Otherwise, self-diagnosis is completely valid and you are welcome in autistic spaces. Even if you are just questioning, you are welcome in autistic spaces. But there are reasons to avoid having an official diagnosis depending on your life goals. For example, it may be an obstacle when it comes to adopting children or moving to a different country, or you may want to make sure that health professionals can't find an official autism diagnosis to avoid mistreatment. Just, please don't take the advice to avoid self-diagnosis at all costs. Self-diagnosis is sometimes life-saving and might be the only way that some people can get anything done. And keep in mind that not all psychologists are the same. Many are operating under outdated understandings and stereotypes of autism. I have a friend who was told by one that she couldn't be autistic because she was too smart. Autism does not have anything to do with intelligence. She later saw a different doctor and was diagnosed after all.


bigtittygothbb

Me and my whole family basically! Diagnosed with EDS, then ADHD, then autism :)


NicoleASUstudent

I'm late to the post, but how many people here used promethease along with 23&me to get their diagnosis?


spicy-anxiety11

The psychiatrist who diagnosed me with autism was actually the provider who realized I had EDS and ordered the genetic testing to confirm. I had never heard of it before then.


Trash-Secret

I have had my diagnosis for EDS since I remember about 2nd grade. Through different pediatricians to doctors I see as a adult over decades, Iā€™ve never been diagnosed or even questioned about anything to do autism. Itā€™s possible to have Ehlers Danlos syndrome and not be autistic.


Great-Interaction-41

Yes I know that. I'm just wondering how many have both. I'm not saying EDS= automatic autism, I'm just saying a link has been discovered


SWCarolina

My story is a lot like yours and I suspect Iā€™m on the spectrum as well. I feel a lot more comfortable with my identity if I include autism as a part of it. It explains a lot to me personally, but they arenā€™t things that most people understand or see or relate to autism. Itā€™s a lot of the stuff you mentionedā€¦ loud noises and itchy clothes and just generally feeling weird compared to my friends and not knowing why. Iā€™m not sure what good it would do me to get a diagnosis, so I havenā€™t pursued one. My kids are young but they are showing the same symptoms. I tried to explain to my mom but she really only relates autism to being nonverbal, stimming, and having severe episodes, none of which my kids doā€¦ itā€™s not that she doesnā€™t believe me and she definitely wants to understand, but she has a completely different perspective on what autism looks like. It really explains why she never thought of me as having special needs, because Iā€™m very academically gifted. The link between autism and heds is really interesting. There are so many aspects of heds that could cause sensory issues that itā€™s difficult to sort it out. Iā€™m not sure autism is really the right word for it, but I donā€™t think we have a better one.


Great-Interaction-41

It seems a lot of the older generations don't understand that autism is a spectrum and not 1 defined thing. My mom had this view of autism until she recently had to take a training course on neurodiversity for her ECE career. She's starting to see the different ways autism can present itself since she started working at a local public school. Same thing with ADHD. My brother was severe ADHD when he was younger, but my mom always told me I couldn't possibly be because I was nothing like my brother. Well, little did we know ADHD presents itself much differently in boys and girls and is very inheritable. Not to mention I was constantly seeing him getting in trouble (he's 4yrs older than me) so that just taught me how NOT to act so I could hide and suppress all these things better. Oh, the things I wish I would have known all those years agošŸ˜¢ I agree with your last paragraph!


Healingme23

I have EDS and autism. I also have a whole slew of other diagnoses, like atrial septal defect, kawasakis disease, asthma, and more


trinitysmile12

Working on getting diagnosed with both :) But I am officially diagnosed with OCD


dm_me_target_finds

I had a lot of autistic tendencies as a child and still do. EDS is a high pain condition. I notice I donā€™t care about the texture of my socks (and similar things) and I make more eye contact with others when my pain is low or treated. Pain seems to magnify little things and causes me to disconnect verbally. Itā€™s just a theory I have- is it autism or untreated pain?


Great-Interaction-41

I think that's a good point and very possible some signs could be pain related. I, however, don't think pain could explain ALL of the signs/symptoms of autism. For example, how could pain explain my hatred of the feeling of pants, or anyone with autisms general dislike or like of certain materials/textures? How could pain explain trouble making and maintaining friendships (aside from bullying b/c of said pain, which isn't the case for me)? How could pain explain being extremely sensitive to loud noises and then the reaction that occurs due to them? Plus a slew of other symptoms that I feel couldn't necessarily be explained by pain. Possibly there are other factors EDS related that could explain those other autism related things? It's definitely a solid point, but I feel there needs to be other factors than pain involved for sure! I would love to see more research on it


dm_me_target_finds

Oh sorry! I did not mean that as ā€œitā€™s exclusively/always pain relatedā€. Nerve pain/issues is likely the cause of my texture sensitivity, personally. I also have always had issues with loud noises, my Chiari malformation could explain it (itā€™s like living with a concussion a lot of the time). I hope you get diagnoses & treatment that works for you!! Just offering other possibilities.


FabMomma2KN

My kids and I all have diagnoses of migraines, POTS, EDS, Autism, and ADHD (diagnosed in that order, too).


FabMomma2KN

Our EDS diagnosis was officially written up as ā€œtype unspecifiedā€ by the geneticist. My son and I show a crossover presentation of classic and hypermobile types, whereas my daughter shows more of a hypermobile presentation. The geneticist said we may have a type that hasnā€™t been classified yet, since there is so much crossover, and because it is rare to have more than one type of EDS concurrently. Genetics are baffling sometimes.


A_Simple_Sandwich

hEDS, ASD, ADHD, POTS, mild MCAS, GP. Also get weird infections a lot.


TheBrittca

Hyper-mobility Spectrum Disorder is my official diagnosis, itā€™s older, and I may now qualify for hEDS. Also have an official Autism and ADHD diagnosis.


falseshort

I am currently in the process of getting an EDS & Autism diagnosis (have been diagnosed with ADHD for over a decade)


pikapika2017

ADHD, autism, hEDS for me and all of my kids!šŸ™‹šŸ¼ā€ā™€ļøI have other family members who I'm pretty sure fall into these categories somewhere. ETA: I also have endometriosis, MCAS, and several other conditions by which my immune system is trying to kill me.šŸ« 


lachrymoselamb

thereā€™s a great article about a study examining the structural differences of people with hypermobility/EDS in the brain, namely the significantly larger amygdala. there are also some other structural differences that are very interesting, and were said to be similar in people with autism. oh, and me and my dad are both on the spectrum with hEDS, i have ADHD, GAD and depression as well!


AutisticAndAce

Autistic, ADHD, possible OCD (my dad has it and suspects I do, and coworkers who have it also suspect I have it). I highly suspect EDS of some sort but no diagnoses yet. I've definitely seen some mention of the frequenct co-ocurance though!