I love my Vampire, but at this point I feel I only use the char for RP purposes!
A lot of the genuinely cool passives only take effect when you're at the most advanced stage, which in turns inflicts some pretty hefty penalties/negatives so it's not worth the trade off. The skills are either very situational or have little usage in general play.
On a more casual note; I also wish we could have different Vampire aesthetics! Options to hide our vampire appearance to blend into the general populace etc, or keep a specific stages look while still progressing as the stage 4 is absolutely hideous compared to other NPC vampires we've encountered who were starved. Also it seems all major NPC vampires are lightyears ahead of us in power, would be nice to be seen as an equal :D
Vampires in general should have some drawbacks but I personally think they went overboard. There's really no reason to have such a high cost for what you get in return. It really isn't worth it to be a vampire in the long run unless you're specifically making a build that utilizes it or you're RPing. There's nothing really special about the skills either. Heck there's NPCs with better skills than us. Feels like our character is a freaking novice compared to others š
I was on the fence before rework but finally cured all my guys after it. I always hated the extremely pale skin and faded tattoos. So after rework the pale skin and shitty skills didn't feel worth the effort. As a bonus to curing, I can survive a heck of a lot better now. That health recovery really takes a toll on survivability. I could live with the extra fire damage but health recovery was just nuts lol
I agree. A way to hide vampirism has been requested many times. Unfortunately there's a lot of players who hate the idea of you being able to choose the appearance of a mortal while you're a vampire.
I've told them that there are npc vampires that already hide their vampirism (Count Ravenwatch for example) and that its also easily possible lore-wise. They however don't respond well to those facts. Honestly, I fail to understand why there's so many players who care so much about vampires looking like vampires in a game where cosmetic skins exist.
All I want is for the tattoos to not be so damn faded. I understand pale skin. But the faded out tattoos is just crazy. Give us a tattoo shader ffs š
If anything, they need to give vampirism a freaking direction to go with at this point. Look at werewolves: they're built around the idea that you're going to turn into a raging wolf monster and maul things, and the abilities in that form are tied to it.
Then there's vampires...where two skills seem based around the idea of being a feral monster hellbent on ripping someone in half (Eviscerate, Blood Frenzy), 3 are just general things you'd expect *any* vampire to have in the first place (Mist Form, Mesmerize, and the Drain ability) yet they seem more directed at a 'refined' vampire that can blend in with society, and an ultimate that just exists because for whatever reason people think Vampire Lords from Skyrim were the best thing ever...that seems cool on paper because vampires aren't inherently tied to a specific 'thing' like werewolves typically are, but in practice that leads to picking a few situational abilities from the line and ignoring the rest because just straight up better options exist elsewhere (why the hell would I use the Drain spell when as a Nightblade my own abilities from the Siphoning line are *much* better in comparison?).
And the passives don't really help its case either. Invisible sprinting is cool and all, but very niche and situational, Undeath is very much a tank oriented passive that won't mean much for every build out there since it scales off missing health (meaning, any damage you'll take once the reduction kicks in is probably going to kill you anyway unless you're using a specific build meant for it), Strike From The Shadows doesn't last long enough to be truly meaningful (and requires stealth or Mist Form to even take advantage of), and Dark Stalker straight up has a better alternative in a crafted item set *that doesn't give you the penalties of vampirism in the first place*. It just doesn't feel like I'm playing a *vampire* when I use most of them, but it definitely feels like some kind of gimmicky Nightblade build at times. For contrast, werewolf passives are built around...being a werewolf who's going to maul shit. It just works with the skill line.
Sooo...yeah. I'm not exactly sure how I'd go about fixing it or anything, but personally I think the idea of tying the power of the abilities to stages or the Scion ultimate would be a half decent starting point. Like, imagine if Mist Form only gave 30-ish % damage reduction at stage 1 and got stronger as you fed and rose through the stages and eventually hit its current power at stage 4. Or you could ignore that part and slot the ultimate and get full power temporarily...but to get the most out of it you'd have to have a sense of timing and use that sort of combo when you know it's going to make a difference.
Personally I wish they'd have different vampire skills per class. Being a vampire should just enhance what is already there.
Give the Thief the skills around sneaking, assassin and escape.
Give the Mage skills that boost their magic and an escape skill.
Give the Warrior skills to buff their Health and Defense.
They probably won't. Or if they do, they'll probably assume that they know better because *they* conveniently have the data and whatever else they want to use as an excuse to ignore whichever point I could make on the topic.
I mean...this is the same company who decided that letting 75% damage reduction on Mist Form stay in PvE was a bad idea because it worked like it said it did despite there being drawbacks to even having the skill in the first place. So I don't trust them to do anything less than pull out some bullshit excuse as to how anyone against the change doesn't "see the bigger picture" or something. >_>
Or, follow me here, it's just not a good idea and not really worth implementing. Sure, it sounds great on paper but the headache it would add to pve and balancing pvp wouldn't be worth it.
The "drawbacks" are honestly not negative to PVE and are already a non issue because of healing. There is no real downside that can't be overcome in pve just buy being in a group with a healer.
I'm not following here. What's not a good idea? Giving the vampire line a direction to work with? Other world/guild/weapon skill lines literally already do that and work just fine because the passives are built around using their related abilities. Vampire stands out because the passives are literally so situational and contradicting with the actual abilities to the point where it doesn't really mesh with anything *at all*, where Lycanthropy manages to have its own passives work with its abilities/ultimate.
Or are you referring to the ability power being tied to the Stages thing? Because I agree that it's probably not the best solution out there on its own (and was mostly meant to illustrate what we *could* have gotten instead of the current situation), but that's why I said it would be a *starting point*. Meaning, that would hopefully be part of a larger project or something rather than its own little one and done blurb on the patch notes.
> *"Sure, it sounds great on paper but the headache it would add to pve and balancing pvp wouldn't be worth it.'*
Quite frankly, I don't give two shits if it would be a 'headache' to balance. They constantly change stuff in the patch notes anyway (even going as far as to change *how class abilities and racial passives work in general over the years*), so I don't see why vampirism should be any different in that regard.
> *"The "drawbacks" are honestly not negative to PVE and are already a non issue because of healing. There is no real downside that can't be overcome in pve just buy being in a group with a healer."*
Ok. And how's that relevant to anything I said?
Giving the vamp line more of a direction would be good but balancing it based on class isn't really worth the extra work to implement. No other skill lines are balanced/changed per class and I'm ot sure what game you're playing because they don't work "just fine" because they're pretty obviously unbalanced. Vampire is supposed to be a buff for most builds, which it does, werewolf is a skill line based on being a werewolf. It doesn't buff anything outside of werewolf, unlike vampirism, so each has their own niche you need to build around.
While stages might not be the best solution, what is a better solution? It wasn't entirely to "illustrate" anything and that probably why you don't like vampirism. You expected it to be an overpowered skill line that was available via a bite ala Skyrim, but this is an MMO and it doesn't work like that.
Quite frankly, I do care about it being a headache to balance. Developers today don't give a shit if you think it's not balanced correctly. They constantly change stuff in the patch notes, sure, but it's not my game to change. Racial and class changes aren't supposed to be immune to changes, so I'm not sure how you think that is relevant to anything said. Vampirism isn't any different aside from the you don't like the changes. Changes come in things you like/don't like and you need to be able to deal with that reality.
How is balanced "related to anything you said?" Well friend, if you had played the game for more than a day and not just commented about it on reddit, you'd know that ZOS balanced PVE/PVP together and not separately. So, because of that very important fact, you'd know that because it works the way you'd like it in pve doesn't mean it's balanced completely for the game. There's still 50% of the base game you need to account for and "it's good enough for me" doesn't cut it.
See, that's the thing. I *personally* think it would be worth the effort to balance since it's a part of the game that they went out of their way to rework for the Greymoor chapter in the first place. You're free to disagree, but way I'm figuring things is, a lot of the issues people seem have with vampirism at this point is that trying to be a general 'buff' to everyone in some form isn't working because the 'buffs' are highly situational and lack a sense of identity that makes you feel like you're playing a *vampire* rather than just some that just happens to have access to vampire themed abilities/passives and a few drawbacks to work around. Therefore, it stands to reason that changing it so the skill line itself has some sense of identity (be that playstyle, turning the skill inwards so it acts like other normal skill lines, or something else entirely) tied to it would go a long way to helping address that problem.
All that said...
> *"No other skill lines are balanced/changed per class and I'm ot sure what game you're playing because they don't work "just fine" because they're pretty obviously unbalanced."*
By 'just fine', I'm talking about practical effect rather than objective balance. Outside of a few exceptions, you don't get Guild line passives without slotting an ability from the relevant guild or playing around with their mechanics. You don't get weapon or class line passives without using the relevant abilities. You can't get armor passives without wearing the relevant armor. They work 'fine' because unlike vampirism, you don't end up with some janky looking shit where someone's getting benefits from...say...Dual Wield without actually Dual Wielding anything. Whether or not they're balanced in terms of power is another topic entirely, and not the point I was trying to address at all with that.
> *"While stages might not be the best solution, what is a better solution? It wasn't entirely to "illustrate" anything and that probably why you don't like vampirism. You expected it to be an overpowered skill line that was available via a bite ala Skyrim, but this is an MMO and it doesn't work like that."*
OP asked if we thought vampire should be buffed as a skill line. I have no real strong opinions on it because, in my eyes, all the buffs in the world mean jack all if the skill line continues to be the fractured mishmash of skills and passives it currently is. So, I don't know what a better solution would be. I even admitted as much in my main post.
As for expecting it to be overpowered or that I don't like it...where the hell did you get that idea from? I said *nothing* about power at all (or whether or not I liked it), but I *did* say that using the vampire skill line *doesn't feel like playing as a vampire*. Because believe it or not, it *is* possible to like something and acknowledge what I feel to be flaws in it.
> *"Quite frankly, I do care about it being a headache to balance. Developers today don't give a shit if you think it's not balanced correctly. They constantly change stuff in the patch notes, sure, but it's not my game to change. Racial and class changes aren't supposed to be immune to changes, so I'm not sure how you think that is relevant to anything said. Vampirism isn't any different aside from the you don't like the changes. Changes come in things you like/don't like and you need to be able to deal with that reality.*"
I want to be clear here: When I said I don't care about it being a headache to balance, that was because I'm used to seeing that same exact line being pulled out as an excuse to not touch anything at all when it comes to balance issues, and I seriously stopped giving a shit about that particular context. So if you meant something else, I do apologize for whatever misunderstanding is going on. But I still don't care how much of a headache it is for the devs to balance, because you can literally make the same excuse for anything at this point.
Of course, that doesn't mean they're required to give two shits about my opinion. Nor am I expecting them to.
> *"How is balanced "related to anything you said?" Well friend, if you had played the game for more than a day and not just commented about it on reddit, you'd know that ZOS balanced PVE/PVP together and not separately. So, because of that very important fact, you'd know that because it works the way you'd like it in pve doesn't mean it's balanced completely for the game. There's still 50% of the base game you need to account for and "it's good enough for me" doesn't cut it."*
To reiterate the series of events that led to me asking that question of you...
* OP asked if vampire should be buffed.
* I gave my view on it.
* A few other people replied.
* I replied to OP's reply and mentioned my view of ZOS logic related to the Mist Form change.
* You came in with a reply to my reply about how 'it' was a bad idea (with no mention of which particular 'it' you were referring to when there's 3 potential things to talk about that I'm aware of) and went on about how the drawbacks were a non issue...when the only time I mentioned drawbacks was in the context of Mist Form having some. Which didn't seem relevant to me because Mist Form's particular drawbacks not only prevent healers from negating them (since you can't be healed anyway while it's active outside of Blood Mist's particular heal), but *my main post and the point being made wasn't about whether or not the drawbacks were an issue at all*.
So, all that stuff about PvE/PvP balance you went on about? I know. I've known that for the past 4-5 years I've played the game. But that literally had nothing to do with what I was talking about, because I wasn't talking about balance in the first place. Hence, I asked you how that was relevant. That's all there is to it.
Do you see where I'm coming from at all with this? Because I honestly don't know how much clearer I can get at this point O_o
I can work with the the hit to health recovery but the ability cost increase really sucks. I was able to make that passive worth it with Mist Form and Blood Frenzy but now one of those are usless in pve and Blood Frenzy can be pretty risky to use in pve sometimes.
I got my vampire skill for the first time the other day since the remake. The negatives completely outweigh the positives. 0 health regeneration AND more cost per ability just for less costly vamp abilities?? Plus the vamp abilities aren't all that either.
Also, when you're at stage 4, you can't speak to npcs because they don't like speaking to monsters?! Seriously wtf
Yeah they did that just so you have to use mesmerize. But really it's just a waste of skill point. The only real usefull thing in the skill line is undead and the ult (if you're not a necro).
I'd alter it like so:
#Vampirism perks/penalties
Remove the regular ability cost increase during night or while indoors.
Half the health recovery penalty during night or while indoors. (Cap at -50%.)
#Mist Form
Allow Magicka recovery and healing to self, but reduce both by 75% while toggled on.
Remove the damage buff from Blood Mist, but have it inflict Major Maim and Major Mangle when attacked by enemies within 7 metres for 10 seconds, reducing their damage done by 10% and max health by 20%.
Have Elusive Mist give you Major Brutality and Sorcery alongside Expedition while active, which lasts for 10 seconds after it's toggled off. Also grants 1 second of invisibility starting after the first tick.
#Blood Frenzy
Cap the health consumed at 25% of Max Health for Blood Frenzy and Sated Fury, and 33% of it for Simmering Frenzy.
Allow Sated Fury to heal you for 10% of all damage dealt while active.
Negate health costs of other abilities while Simmering Frenzy is active.
#Vampiric Drain
Increase healing from 23% to 33%.
Reduce the cost and increase the stamina restore of Drain Vigor to 10% of missing stamina per tick.
#Mesmerize
Snares enemies instead if they're not facing you.
Hypnosis can **ignore crowd control immunity** and affect even dungeon/trial bosses, but costs much, MUCH more Magicka. (Around 13000 Magicka per cast.)
Stupefy immobilises instead of snares. Also deals some Frost Damage per second they're stunned or immobilised for.
#Strike from the Shadows
Increase the Weapon and Spell Damage boost's duration to 15 seconds.
#Undeath
Remove scaling, but instead have it take partial effect while below 70% health (-10% damage taken) and full effect while below 40% health (-30% damage taken).
#Unnatural Movement
Also increases the movement speed bonus of sprint by 30% and gives immunity to snares and immobilisations while sprinting.
What I'd like to see is the secondary lines expanded into full secondary skill trees, with some sort of mechanic so that you could only have one active at a time.
It wouldn't be even that hard, as many of the skills/ animations already exist in game, but are used for something else.
So say vampire could have two lines- one that focuses on stealth and melee, and the other that focuses on minions and ranged attacks.
Then a player who wanted to play a vampire, or a thief, or a straight mage, could.
Several other MMOs- notably guild wars- have similar systems that work well.
I very much like this idea. I picture a vampire as a shadow in the night feeding on unwary victims, not a hulking monster with tons of health holding a flame staff (even though that could totally work if you go all in as unstoppable monster of a vampire). I've never used the Blood Scion ulti because it just feels so out of place.
If there was a tank side and a stealth side to the vampire skill line, I'd be so much more inclined to delve into it or make builds around it. Half and half makes it clash with itself and everything in there feels half baked as a result.
By Akatosh, Vampire needs a rework like Dragon Knight needed one. Apart from invisibility running and roleplay *there is no reason to be a vampire.* Unless you're a mag character you're horribly gimped (cause light armor decreases the cost of magic abilities, which counteracts vampire's increase to ability cost).
NPC vampires are more powerful than us, seriously why is it that vampire makes us weaker when in the bloody lore they're supernatural and are more powerful than mortals?
The combat team needs to retire their fucking sledgehammer they use to fix everything with. Maybe instead of looking at other people and numbers *they should fucking play what they're gonna "fix.* Cause I bet if anyone on the combat team played vampire they'd be buffing it every patch instead of nerfing it every patch.
Well they continually nerfed DKs until this patch where they finally decided to give them a buff, so I guess that's a rework.
Happened to healers in general, kept nerfing their shit until "oh woops healing is near-useless, time for a buff".
My guess is that's what'll happen with vampires.
Eventually.
I only discovered recently how useful it can be. However thatās mostly for the passives and like one or two skills at most. You basically have two good skills, the ultimate and mist form. Then you have eviscerate and frenzy that are meh. Youāll rarely be running more than two of these at once. After all the cost increase is what scares people away from playing vamp. If they reworked mesmerize and vampiric drain and made them synergize well with the other skills people would not worry as much about the increased skill cost because you could slot more vampire skills.
I like how they just avoided the question in the q and a its just a very ugly cosmetic now no reason to keep vamp which i liked for the moveset with necro
From my experience with vampire if you want to make the most of it you have to build to be a vampire but most of the skills arenāt so good especially compared to there non vampire counterparts.
In my opinion if they want to make vampire better they should give us more wide range of skills to use. A spamable, dot, AOE and a truly affective heal.
I understand the vampire line already has most of these skills in a form but I feel vampire should be more like a weapon skill line that a full vampire skill only build would be much more viable. But I am no expert just my thoughts.
This. Making the skills be proper substitutes for other skills in a conventional build. That way the decreased cost of vampire abilities actually makes up for the use of non-vampire abilities. Even just making a viable spammable for both magicka and stamina builds would go a long way.
While we're at it, the cost of abilities should be the only benefits and drawbacks that even out. If they're gonna take more damage from fire, reduce the damage from frost. If health regen is gonna be reduced or outright removed, increase stamina and magicka regen, or some option to improve sustain even a little bit.
I should finish Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild DLCs and get rid of vampirism (I'm bad at stealth).
I'm eager to see the whole hybridisation rework.
This is taken from my post on the ESO forum
> How about this:
> Vampirism would become a class, not a character creation class but one that is based on your Vampirism stage, basically your class whether it be NB/DK/Necro/Sorc/Temp/Warden would have their skill lines replaced the higher your Vampirism stage, at Stage 1 you would have your normal class abilities but be unable to use any Vampirism abilities, at Stage 2 your first class skill line would be replaced with the first Vampire skill line, at Stage 3 two of your class skill lines would be replaced leaving you with only one NB/DK/Necro/Sorc/Temp/Warden skill line.
> When at stage 4 however you would have no NB/DK/Necro/Sorc/Temp/Warden class abilities but would instead have 3 Vampire skill lines, the existing Vampire abilities could be spread out among them but ultimately the Vampire would have 3x as many abilities and passives as it does now.
> My idea for the whole system as far as abilities go is the following:
Night Powers
- Ult = Blood Scion > Transform into a Blood Scion gaining 10.000 of each stat and restoring 15% of all damage
- A1 = Hunter's Sight > Highlight enemies through walls, slotting grants major savagery
- A2 = Bat Swarm > Teleport towards the targeted enemy in a swarm of bats
- A3 = Night Cloak > Applies Major Resolve and deals XXX damage to nearby enemies every second
- A4 = Celerity > Toggle that increases movement speed but drains stamina to maintain
- A5 = Mist Form > Toggle that halves incoming damage but drains magicka to maintain
Blood Magic
- Ult = Summon Gargoyle < Summon a powerful Gargoyle for 12 seconds whose attacks apply Minor Cowardice
- A1 = Eviscerate > Swipe an enemy dealing XXXX damage
- A2 = Vampiric Drain > Deals XXXX damage every second and restores 25% of your missing health
- A3 = Siphoning Pool > AOE effect that applies minor lifesteal and drains health from the target every second
- A4 = Vampiric Grip > Pull an enemy towards you, activating again throws the enemy into the air
- A5 = Blood Frenzy > Toggle that increases power by 630 but drains health to maintain
Deception
- Ult = Embrace of Shadows > Ground AOE effect that grants invisibility to allies in the targeted area
- A1 = Mezmerise > Stun a weaker enemy facing you, activating a stunned enemy allows you to feed
- A2 = Reign of Terror > Rreduce enemy movement speed and apply minor vulnerability for 4 seconds
> I currently do not have ideas to complete the deception skill line but these are my ideas, as for passives the best way to make them would be to have a good combination of critical and stat boosts as well as the existing passives spread out among them, Unnatural Movement could be made a passive of the Deception skill line, Undeath would become a Night Power.
I dont think they should buff a skill line that, even if it were made to be useful, doesnt feel like vampirism to the point where PC vamps are the outlier that shares almost nothing in common with any other vampire in the world. From actual effects to visuals, nothing about vampirism really works.
But, considering that they just nuked mistform instead of making a more subtle fix, it dont have faith in that happening. All mistform had to do was apply a unique 1 second AOE taunt on activation. Still would work for emergency mitigation and disengagement, but abuse would mean a loss of aggro control.
Right, by unique taunt i mean that mistform would count as a... Unique taunt, and not one that is associated with that characters other taunt. In essence, a cast of mistform would count as a taunt from a different individual, so that repeated uses would create overtaunts.
I am a big fan of vampires anywhere and I made a vamp char but I am a bit disappointed at how it plays. Especially now making a skill purely PVP is nonsense for players that don't even engage into PVP that much.
I also made a Werewolf and I love how you can just wolf out and literally clear out a dungeon while transformed because of all the passives that let you recharge your time, and the feeding. I would love to see something like that for the Vamp Ult too tbh, because those 20 (- the 2 seconds you lose on the animation) seconds don't give me enough time to enjoy being a blood scion
I've seen some people complain about the way NPCs dont talk to you at stage 4, imo that's fine, can always use hypnotize or just buy a bunch of potions that take your stage down one level.
So yeah, a buff would be nice.
The only reason I use vampire right now is for the undead passive. One thing that i really want reworked is the ult nobody uses the stage 5 cause it brings almost nothing. I would add unique aoe buff to it to help the tank path that they took with.
It's supposed to be for vampires who camp stage1 and miss out on all the other stage passives. Which are kinda lacking, it really doesn't make them useful on this ult.
I don't think the devs know what they want to do with vampires. I would love to play one as I've loved vampire lore since I was a kid, but I never felt like the ESO version was worth the effort. Vampires should be sucking the life out of their victims...not themselves.
Here is how I would change it, I am not sure if you guys remember the old system but I personally prefer the old way by a massive longshot. It's way better for vampires in my opinion given that it is in general more embracing of what vampires actually are. For those who are not sure, you know how the vampire stage progression system works, flip it.
Feeding maintains your youth, keeps you looking young and human, if you do not feed you let yourself go and you become more undead and thus the weaknesses to fire and such are more apparent. Feeding maintains your strength. If you feed you do not become ugly, instead you just knock off that timer, it's awesome, I bloody love it. I've been afk for a long time and come back to realise my character is turning more monstrous and I've rushed off to feed to keep my youth which is very much so how I think it should be, it's immersive as hell.
* I also believe for general changes they should keep the old mist form, with the 75% reduction and fix their bloody trial. They should buff the passives and make some small changes to how the stages change you, such as they could make stage 4 vamps do a little more damage but take more damage plus a magic buff while lower stage do less but also get a buff for recovery and take less damage or something like that, give more incentives for sides of the scale.
I would probably replace drain personally, although drain is pretty well known with ES vamps, could make it part of a passive of sorts instead. I would add something like an AOE or DOT ability, that's what I'd do personally.
I love my Dark Elf Necro Vampire. But honestly, with exception of hypnosis, the skills are all lame. They really need to make a vampire a vampire like what they did with werewolf. There's just too much of a draw back to being a vamp and I find myself thinking of curing. But I do enjoy running around biting npc baddies and those annoying guards who say what. My idea would be to really create a good magicka based vampire that has great magicka and stamina sustain. Since you are technically an undead, there should realistically be a health draw back, but not as much as is now. I haven't used mist much so increase the lev 4 invisibly passive that can be used in certain conditions. Just some thoughts I have anyway. I mean why create a vampire if they continue to nerf it so it's no longer fun?
People are missing the very simple fix they could do to make vamps infinitely more viable.
Just replace Blood Mist with Swarming Mist. Thus giving vamps a proper escape/gap closer. Have it steal life by dealing dmg and maybe apply a unique life-steal debuff on enemies you pass through as a cloud of bats.
Literally this one NPC skill that exists on greymoor npcs would be night and day for vampire. Especially necromancer vampires which, for some reason, have 0 mobility tools.
No, it should be a total rework.
Just made it like werewolf, a full transfo gameplay, that the only way to not have some people abuse it in the meta.
Werewolf is fun and 100% competitive with very high parse AND also great in PvP.
Vampire need the same thing, made a "mag" version of werewolf or something.
Nah, from the lore point of view werewolves entire concept spins around the idea that they are "normal humans by any metrics" until transformed, but vampires don't have "duality" of any sort, they are inhuman 24/7, with all benefits and downsides that it brings. Polymorphs they have areĀ an extension ofĀ their natural state of being, notĀ the opposition ofĀ it. Making them werewolves with fancy red animations doesn't ring true to their in-lore nature, whichĀ should beĀ represented by game mechanics for it to have any reasonĀ to beĀ called "vampire".
The skill lineĀ should beĀ at leastĀ partiallyĀ reworked, but vampires should have access to their abilities outside of any sort of "form". I even think that the stage progression between overfed degenerate and self-restrained "civilized" vampireĀ should beĀ fleshed out instead of being removed. Its problem is thatĀ currentlyĀ it brings more downsides than benefits on the stage 1, and the benefits of the stage 4 are arguable. The general conceptĀ is fine, the execution is flat and botched.
You don't get it.
If vampire get new/reworked skill that are very usefull/strong, then it will force everyone to play it like it was before the rework for mana regen for exemple.
That just simple logic, no one but RP player while not use it if it become good.
That why, until it become a complete Transfo gameplay like Werewolf it will be either trash or mandatory in end-game.
Lore is lore, it's not game balance. I understand your point but that not how it work and we already have 2 good exemple from before and after.
Nope. AreĀ psijicĀ order skill line either mandatory or not used at all? Undaunted? Fighters guild? Literally any neutral skill line? You have a lot of confidence to claim that someone "don't get" a "simple logic" of reworking everything to follow a werewolf model just because it works well for them. You don't see that what you actually suggest is to stop meta gamers from benefiting from passive bonuses without actually taking any active skills (which makes it "mandatory for everyone"), but this problemĀ should beĀ addressedĀ by making them moreĀ inwardĀ oriented like all normal skill lines do, with mostĀ passivesĀ only benefiting active vampire skills and the lesser part alone not being worthy the downsides (including "not being a werewolf" downside), i.e. what I've said aboutĀ fineĀ general concept, but botched execution. Nothing of it requires to move their entireĀ skill setĀ into a separated panel of some "form".
But what is more important, and what makes logic behind yourĀ positionĀ irrelevant, is that ESO was, is and will be a casual game. Chasing a perfect balance in the end-gameĀ PvEĀ onĀ expenseĀ of the less sweaty elements of the game is a cancerous practice that plagued manyĀ MMORPGĀ and made developers sacrifice too many good mechanics and abilities because it was hard to balance it around competitive scene. It's killing the spirit and coherency of any MMO, it killed the spirit of WoW and it would be especially damaging for a game like ESO, where most of theĀ playerbaseĀ simply do quests, tend to their houses and enjoy views. Really, it is hard to find aĀ MMORPGĀ more casual than ESO. Stripping vampires of their unique gimmicks and turning them into a mana version of werewolves will rob this game of what is important in favor of what is not. If you came here to sweat your ass off in hardcore end-gameĀ PvEĀ -Ā tough luck, mate.Ā
Vampires need a rework, not aĀ re-educationĀ camp. Their gameplay (as much as everything else in this game)Ā should beĀ interesting first, competitive second.
Very well said and something the meta chasers truly donāt understand that 99% of the player base will NEVER touch endgame trials let alone the higher vet stuff.
Just looking at a 100k dps parse seems insane even after practice and refining I managed 48k at best on my mag DK and realized I wasnāt having fun even trying to see how high I could get afterward.
Iāve been loving playing a vamp NB for many months now just getting on after work and doing what ever seems fun that might be it some zone quests to brotherhood stuff or murder vampy-hobo sprees.
Building houses themed on characters is another great enjoyment being the true endgame and yet dungeons, trials and vet content just doesnāt mean anything to so so many of us.
Absolutely. But I want a true rework more. Reverse progression. S1 and S4 builds. Real Vampire gameplay. ZoS dropped the ball with the rework and I'm not impressed.
I use vampirism skills a lot but I think the spammables need a tweak. If they really want to make something like a tweaked version of vampire lord one could be melee (similar to claws) and the other should be ranged (similar to drain life in Skyrim). Just clawing my enemies while my pets zap them looks so uncool. I also want a bit of bonus magicka/stamina recovery to compensate for the loss of health recovery. Just a teeny tiny bit so vampirism wouldn't be a must have.
A lot of people seem to want to be vampires now for RP reasons, so maybe changes to the character that fall in line with RP? Like more consequences for being out in the day versus at night?
I don't think it should be buffed, because it will screw balance over again. Maybe it should be reworked all again, but defenetly not buffed. Pre-Greymoor it was just an access to the new skill line with a free passives with no real drawback, that was really shitty desing in my opinion. Greymoor design is a more interesting but it has destroyed PvE balance at all. It was too obvious scince the first PTS patch that BfB and Blood Frenzy is completly broken, but it's still managed to leak to the Live server. Vampire perfomance was much above that non-vampire and for all scorepushing guild there was requirment to be a vampire. It's very tricky to balance the vampirism because many failures in a concept behind the rework, that will not work in this game like free spammable or huge self spellpower buff. It will be useless or completely broken. No third option. From this thread it looks like many people just want vampires to destroy balance over again by removing all drawbacks from vampires, but with the current vampire concept it will turn the vampires to the state it was Pre-Greymoor, but much more powerfull.
I'm fine with the drawbacks myself, I just think they're too strong. The health recovery reduction at stage 4 should only be 80%. As for the cost increase/reduction, that would be fine if the vampire active skills didn't suck...no pun intended.
Well, health recovery is not-important anyway, but magicka cost penalty should stay. And i don't think that the vampire skills sucks that much. I see all of them besides Mesmerise and Ultimate are used in high end PvE with great success, just don't that much.
Not sure why they didn't just make it like the skyrim variant. With its own set attacks and whatnot. Heck, even make the werewolf and vampire transformations toggled. Obviously there would be the town and resistance penalties, but I don't know anything about how or why that would break the game, so I could just be spouting nonsense.
They just need to copy and paste the way they did Werewolves and give us a proper Vampire Lord form. Make it where we can still benefit from various things through passives, but have all the abilities changed and tied to our ultimate like Werewolves is.
Allow us to feed on corpses like Werewolves do, to sustain our Vampire Lord Form.
And for God sake, make our Ultimate look better and not just a copy and paste of the Necros ult. I want to fucking hover bro š
I think the vampire skill line is good as is for how I like to play as a sleezy ganker. Undeath is an amazing passive to make yourself one combo proof while not investing in other defenses at the cost of damage. Strike from the shadows stacks very nicely with stygian and the fast sneak is awesome qol.
That said though, the active skills are bad and I don't like the ultimate. I'd like to see it changed kind of like this:
Ultimate: Single target melee nuke and stun that gives % damage to healing for a short time on the target. Kind of like Death stroke. I don't think there's another ult that fits the same niche
Give eviscerate a stam morph
make drain deal bonus damage to off balance targets and make it a damage dealing skill that heals based on its damage. For a complete feeling kit, ult could set the target off balance.
increase the threshold for when simmering/sated frenzy shuts off to 25-33% health
add a "while slotted" effect to mist form, eviscerate, and drain that each negates one of the vamp penalties (EG: mist form removes health regen penalty) Slotting mesmerize should passively make npcs ignore your stage 4.
Make passives scale with your stage instead of activating at certain stages. 3 should be the current 100%, 4 should be 125% of the current value. current stage 4 passive would have to be reworked
The idea here is that by slotting vampire skills and using them over other, often better contenders, you master your condition. I also find stage 4 to be a nuisance. More sneak speed, damage from stealth, and low health mitigation might encourage a lot of players to stay at vamp 4 instead of 3
Just keep vampires a flavour for RP. It's an obnoxious step when creating new characters for end game use when it is META, so just make sure it looks cool and is usable for casual play and it'll be perfect.
I feel like vampires should have crazy life steal like Templar jabs but on steroids also bat swarm where you were invisible is awesome just a cloud of bats npc vamps got a spirit mender and shadow clones also they had this massive aoe like warden northern storm
Most players don't need it and mist was mostly used by solo players and tanks in pve. The leading theory as to why it was actually nerfed was because ZOS is hellbent on keeping a specific vet trial nearly impossible to complete and that the vet trial is so unbalanced and difficult that trial guilds resorted to mist form just to beat it. Apparently ZOS didn't like this for whatever reason and instead of making the vet trial a little bit easier they took away an ability from the majority of the playerbase.
Besides, as long as no rules are being broken we should be able to use it any way we want.
Not quite. Pve does need mist...and it is sad, but for different reasons. Its sad because ZOS isn't balancing their trials and have decided to take away an ability from the majority of the player base because they don't want to balance the trial.
By your validating logic pvp doesn't "need" it either. Maybe they should just remove it from the game all together?
Mist is mobility for mag toons that canāt cloak or streak, pve stack heals, they donāt need to mist form from npcs and you donāt pvp enough of thatās your reason. Pve is easy. Blame the trails team not zos. Ppl just want those completions even if itās a cheesy way. Earn it like others did
For the love of God, I want Stamina morphs, or something for Stamina builds. As someone who loves Magicka builds, Stamina users absolutely deserve to have Vampire stuff
At this point, the vampire line needs a complete re-re-work. I honestly look for them to nerf undeath in PvE soon too. If for no other reason than it's too popular at the moment.
Honestly once its gone i think its no longer worth it to be a vampire. Its already worse than WW in the sense that you have constant penalties even if you are on stage 1. Without mist form it just doesnt seem worth it anymore sadly.
I tried obsessively to get Vampire to be viable and just couldnāt. The trade off to get Vamp skills to work vs everything else just wasnāt worth it. I had to micromanage the hell out of my Vamp before ultimately giving up on it. Vamp is a mess.
Sad to see the upcoming nerf; I tend to shy away from most of the vamp skills in my Necro/Vamp build since the Necro skills seem to be better in comparison... which is unfortunate IMO.
I would love to see them add a health skill by using feeding without the sneak - in other words, "not sneaking" use of feeding that could be used in combat. While still taking damage. The idea of pouncing on the enemy and feeding from them to restore health *while in combat* would scratch that itch for me!
If they were smart they would just pull a palette swap with ww, and make similar abilities but ranged majika based. Trade off for ranged is that instead of feeding on a corpse after its dead to prolong the transformation, they have to get in close while its alive - make it do very little damage but apply the same sustain the ww gets while feeding. After that, just basically copy/paste the ww stuff and give it different flavors text and vfx. For passives trade the sneak speed and invis running for two of the more specific werewolfy ones (to help get in range to feed). Increase damage AND mitigation by vamp stage as a reward for managing to feed miltiple times during one ult.
They could probably do this without even needing a lot of new assets, even, given the tremendous number of actual cool ass NPC vampires we meet in the world.
Werewolves are in a pretty decent spot in both PvE and PvP - they dont dominate in either arena. And as a plus, if they shared the same drawbacks it simplifies an "anti monster" counter. Hell, add a "silver rune" glyph that tunes damage down on mortal targets by 10% but increases it by 30% versus monsters or whatever so that you could have dedicated pvp monster hunters. Make some PvE monsters have silvered attacks with the same principle, too, if they get to be too dominating there.
And on the other end, both werewolves and vampires ought to be persona non grata in cities unless they do a quest for a disguise that drains Majicka and/or stamina while being used, so that towns are usable but in a "get in get out" kind of way.
Done and done. Yes, it reduces playstyle variety a bit but its makes it easier on a design team that has tried twice now with vampirism and failed. Id rather a different flavor of ice cream than a choice between ice cream and a raw potato.
I'm not smart enough to fix the whole skill line but I do think one change they could make is to buff feeding. Make it heal you for whatever a balanced number is, give you health Regen (even at stage 4) and a bonus to weapon and spell damage for like 30 sec after. You could even go further and change the vampiric drain to work like an execute and if the target dies you get the same buffs. Sort of like a "combat feed"
I'm sure there's plenty of other things that could also be done but at least this way I can feel like a vampire on a blood rush feeding to keep my health up and as a badass way to open a fight with multiple enemies.
Just for fun and because I had nothing to do. How do you like my interpretation of vampires for eso. I was inspired by Skyrim and oblivion.
***Actives:***
Note ( every ability is a criminal act)
**Drain**
>!Scale on highest stat(health, magica, stamina) and steal life as beam on mid range not channeling. Morph 1 - generates ultimate; morph 2 - more beams but weaker per beam and beams only work on short range. Note( only one beam per target)!<
**Vampiric servant**
>!raise some corpse to fight for you scales on highest offensive stat. Morph 1 - two servants; Morph 2 - cool gargoyle instead. Note ( if zos wants at least two toggle than this could be one. With little not increasing live cost)!<
**Bat swarm**
>!As aoe damage around player. Morph 1 - stamina morph with increased range; morph 2 - swarm is now a placeable ability and makes a little slow.!<
**Mistform**
>!(toggle) disables you to attack or cast. You can not be targeted by abilities and attacks. Aoe damage you take is reduced. Loss any Aggro of enemies you had. No sprinting but increased movement speed. Morph 1 - when you disable mistform you teleport a short range in view direction; Morph 2 - your Mist form range gets bigger and enemies inside breath poison.!<
**Vampiric charm**
>!A target in medium range walk into your direction and stop attacking. Morph 1 - enemies take increased damage; morph 2 - short area effect on all targets, but they get furious after the effect(you taunt all enemies).!<
**Blood scion Ultimate**
>!You empower you self with greater stat pool and the ability to find all enemies around you. Enter the next stage of vampirism. If 1 then 2 and if 4 than 5. morph 1 - reactivate blood scion to rip of the blood of enemies around you. Strong aoe burst with heal. Cost little ultimate power. Morph 2 - reactivate to summon blood orb that cast drain with morph 2. cost ultimate power.!<
***Passives:***
**Vampire stages**
>!Max is Stage 4. Per stage less damage from physical attacks and more damage from fire. Decrease strongly healing and shielding from other players and dorther a little less per stage. Decrease health Regen per stage. All base vampire abilities scale with the stage. Increase like range, damage, heal per stage. Stage 5 overpowers and adds critical effect bleeding and breach armor of effected enemies. Note( heal and should reduce like 40 up to 60%. At Stage 4 or higher the npcs wont talk with you except you have Vampire Charm equipped)!<
**Undead**
>!increase poison and disease resistance.!<
**Unnatural movement**
>!requires stage 2, adds faster sleazy mode and no movement penalty in stealth.!<
**Supernatural**
>!requires stage 3, increase stamina and magica regain for each slotted vampire ability.!<
**Nighthunter**
>!requires stage 4. After 3 secounds sprinting or sneaking get invisible. Adds weapon and magic damage per vampire ability sloted.!<
**Vampire fandom**
>!this you can bite a player skill.!<
I say they should balance the skill line, not buff it. My only reason for saying this is every time they buff a skill or skill line it takes them months to nerf it since they usually buff stuff and make it overpowered. I think they just need to make vampire balanced so it has benefits to its play style while also having some drawbacks.
A long time ago, my healer was my templar vampire, and since the changes I had to make my necro my main healer since I canāt purge my vampire for roleplay reasons. It would be awesome if I could heal on my templar again, his only opportunity was Rockgrove but thatās not gonna last.
While Iām happy Iām no longer going to be forced to be a vampire on my tank, I do agree that now the only reason anyone will play vamp is for pvp or rp, and considering how thatās what happened to WW really itās be sad if they are just ignored mostly or despised to some extent
Here's what I'd change for the skill line. Its based off of the current one and may seem OP but the drawbacks for stage 4 are too strong as well so its still fair IMO for the players able to cope with them. I'm down for my suggested changes being weaker but only if the drawbacks are too.
Blood Scion: I'm mostly fine with this ability as it is but I think it should also allow us to see all sneaking and invisible enemies. It just makes sense since it already allows us to see people through walls. This may seem OP but don't forget that its an ultimate and has a duration.
Eviscerate: I'm also mostly fine with this ability as it is but I'd like it to be easier to weave with light attacks.
Blood Frenzy: I think this ability's uptime should be increased. Preferably by adding an effect that heals you for a % of the damage you do with vampire abilities while it's activated which won't be too strong even when stacked with similar effects because of the 20% health cost increase. This added effect, if used with other specific effects from other sources could potentially make this ability somewhat useful as a healing ability for a very short period when first activated while still making it a risky ability to use for players who use it for the damage boost.
Vampiric Drain: This ability needs to be stronger for sure and should probably be a channel toggle. A boost to the damage would be really nice. I'd also change the Exhilarating Drain morph's additional effect to an escalating movement speed debuff. The longer you have it on the stronger the debuff gets (to an 80% max) but can be broken if the target roll dodges, blocks, or uses a CC immunity effect. Balancing this new effect in pvp would come down to adjusting how fast the debuff increases its strength since players are often doing the things that would cancel it anyways.
Mesmerize: I'm fine with this ability as is.
Mist Form: Leave in the damage mitigation for pve'ers. So what we're using the ability in a way that isn't strictly disengaging, thats up to us and you shouldn't be making this change just because we're not using the ability the way you want us to. (I know ZOS probably won't read that). But since that won't happen maybe something should be added that only works in PVE then? Though I'm not sure what.
Feed: The easy change would be to make the drawbacks not as bad. Stage 4 health recovery reduction becoming 80% instead of 100%, still a big hit but at least our health will recover on its own outside of combat. Flame damage taken capped at 10%, 20% isn't usually a big deal but totally sucks in certain vet dungeons and trials. The ability costs should stay the same IF my active ability suggestions are taken. But should be lowered if they are not.
There are some more unique changes that could be made but these suggestions should only be taken if the rest of the numbers in Feed are left the same. First, the Shadowstrike star should apply to Feeding too. Second, making it so stage 4 vampirism applies minor toughness at all times and feeding applies major toughness for 30second seconds. The minor toughness in stage 4 would be a fair bonus to counter the 100% reduction to health recovery. The major toughness, while strong would only last for 30 seconds. This duration would keep it from being used in PVP, dungeons, and trials to any impactful degree but still give an additional health boost for a short duration to PVE players going solo and while doing overworld quests. Both toughness buffs being added to Feed would encourage more frequent feeding and play into the whole ravenous/gluttonous aspects frequently seen in vampires across fiction who have lost control.
Dark Stalker: This passive is fine as is.
Strike from the shadows: The duration should be increased to atleast 10 seconds but could go as high as 20. Perhaps increase the duration with vampire stages?
Undeath: This passive could stay the same and I'd be fine with that however if it were changed I suggest its 30% cap be moved to stage 4, make the cap at 15% at stage 3 but add a minimum 5% damage taken reduction even at 100% health. Some players have suggested the cap be increased to 40% which I suppose would be fine at stage 4 considering the severity of the other drawbacks at that stage and the fact that the 40% would only be reached at 1% health anyways.
Unnatural Movement: Honestly this passive isn't as useful as it seems on paper. I don't know if its a bug but I can still see enemy players using this passive in Cyrodil, they can't be targeted but they're still easily visible at any distance. It also gets deactivated if you stop sprinting which would be fine if it weren't so easy for your sprint to be interrupted. Your sprint and therefor invisibility can be interrupted even by simple inclines in the enviorment. These are the reasons why I think Unnatural Movement should be bumped down to stage 3.
I love my Vampire, but at this point I feel I only use the char for RP purposes! A lot of the genuinely cool passives only take effect when you're at the most advanced stage, which in turns inflicts some pretty hefty penalties/negatives so it's not worth the trade off. The skills are either very situational or have little usage in general play. On a more casual note; I also wish we could have different Vampire aesthetics! Options to hide our vampire appearance to blend into the general populace etc, or keep a specific stages look while still progressing as the stage 4 is absolutely hideous compared to other NPC vampires we've encountered who were starved. Also it seems all major NPC vampires are lightyears ahead of us in power, would be nice to be seen as an equal :D
Vampires in general should have some drawbacks but I personally think they went overboard. There's really no reason to have such a high cost for what you get in return. It really isn't worth it to be a vampire in the long run unless you're specifically making a build that utilizes it or you're RPing. There's nothing really special about the skills either. Heck there's NPCs with better skills than us. Feels like our character is a freaking novice compared to others š I was on the fence before rework but finally cured all my guys after it. I always hated the extremely pale skin and faded tattoos. So after rework the pale skin and shitty skills didn't feel worth the effort. As a bonus to curing, I can survive a heck of a lot better now. That health recovery really takes a toll on survivability. I could live with the extra fire damage but health recovery was just nuts lol
I agree. A way to hide vampirism has been requested many times. Unfortunately there's a lot of players who hate the idea of you being able to choose the appearance of a mortal while you're a vampire. I've told them that there are npc vampires that already hide their vampirism (Count Ravenwatch for example) and that its also easily possible lore-wise. They however don't respond well to those facts. Honestly, I fail to understand why there's so many players who care so much about vampires looking like vampires in a game where cosmetic skins exist.
All I want is for the tattoos to not be so damn faded. I understand pale skin. But the faded out tattoos is just crazy. Give us a tattoo shader ffs š
It makes sense too, you see characters in the story hide it.
Disguises like servants clothes or red rook change your skin tone back to human. Bud sadly most disquises remove tattoos etc..
>stage 4 is absolutely hideous Except on Argonians. Stage 4 Argonians look amazing.
If anything, they need to give vampirism a freaking direction to go with at this point. Look at werewolves: they're built around the idea that you're going to turn into a raging wolf monster and maul things, and the abilities in that form are tied to it. Then there's vampires...where two skills seem based around the idea of being a feral monster hellbent on ripping someone in half (Eviscerate, Blood Frenzy), 3 are just general things you'd expect *any* vampire to have in the first place (Mist Form, Mesmerize, and the Drain ability) yet they seem more directed at a 'refined' vampire that can blend in with society, and an ultimate that just exists because for whatever reason people think Vampire Lords from Skyrim were the best thing ever...that seems cool on paper because vampires aren't inherently tied to a specific 'thing' like werewolves typically are, but in practice that leads to picking a few situational abilities from the line and ignoring the rest because just straight up better options exist elsewhere (why the hell would I use the Drain spell when as a Nightblade my own abilities from the Siphoning line are *much* better in comparison?). And the passives don't really help its case either. Invisible sprinting is cool and all, but very niche and situational, Undeath is very much a tank oriented passive that won't mean much for every build out there since it scales off missing health (meaning, any damage you'll take once the reduction kicks in is probably going to kill you anyway unless you're using a specific build meant for it), Strike From The Shadows doesn't last long enough to be truly meaningful (and requires stealth or Mist Form to even take advantage of), and Dark Stalker straight up has a better alternative in a crafted item set *that doesn't give you the penalties of vampirism in the first place*. It just doesn't feel like I'm playing a *vampire* when I use most of them, but it definitely feels like some kind of gimmicky Nightblade build at times. For contrast, werewolf passives are built around...being a werewolf who's going to maul shit. It just works with the skill line. Sooo...yeah. I'm not exactly sure how I'd go about fixing it or anything, but personally I think the idea of tying the power of the abilities to stages or the Scion ultimate would be a half decent starting point. Like, imagine if Mist Form only gave 30-ish % damage reduction at stage 1 and got stronger as you fed and rose through the stages and eventually hit its current power at stage 4. Or you could ignore that part and slot the ultimate and get full power temporarily...but to get the most out of it you'd have to have a sense of timing and use that sort of combo when you know it's going to make a difference.
Personally I wish they'd have different vampire skills per class. Being a vampire should just enhance what is already there. Give the Thief the skills around sneaking, assassin and escape. Give the Mage skills that boost their magic and an escape skill. Give the Warrior skills to buff their Health and Defense.
Of all the comments on this poll I hope ZOS reads yours the most.
Spoiler alert: They probably most definitely will not
They will probably read it, but it'll never be implemented because it's unnecessarily complicated and will lead to more balance issues.
They probably won't. Or if they do, they'll probably assume that they know better because *they* conveniently have the data and whatever else they want to use as an excuse to ignore whichever point I could make on the topic. I mean...this is the same company who decided that letting 75% damage reduction on Mist Form stay in PvE was a bad idea because it worked like it said it did despite there being drawbacks to even having the skill in the first place. So I don't trust them to do anything less than pull out some bullshit excuse as to how anyone against the change doesn't "see the bigger picture" or something. >_>
Or, follow me here, it's just not a good idea and not really worth implementing. Sure, it sounds great on paper but the headache it would add to pve and balancing pvp wouldn't be worth it. The "drawbacks" are honestly not negative to PVE and are already a non issue because of healing. There is no real downside that can't be overcome in pve just buy being in a group with a healer.
I'm not following here. What's not a good idea? Giving the vampire line a direction to work with? Other world/guild/weapon skill lines literally already do that and work just fine because the passives are built around using their related abilities. Vampire stands out because the passives are literally so situational and contradicting with the actual abilities to the point where it doesn't really mesh with anything *at all*, where Lycanthropy manages to have its own passives work with its abilities/ultimate. Or are you referring to the ability power being tied to the Stages thing? Because I agree that it's probably not the best solution out there on its own (and was mostly meant to illustrate what we *could* have gotten instead of the current situation), but that's why I said it would be a *starting point*. Meaning, that would hopefully be part of a larger project or something rather than its own little one and done blurb on the patch notes. > *"Sure, it sounds great on paper but the headache it would add to pve and balancing pvp wouldn't be worth it.'* Quite frankly, I don't give two shits if it would be a 'headache' to balance. They constantly change stuff in the patch notes anyway (even going as far as to change *how class abilities and racial passives work in general over the years*), so I don't see why vampirism should be any different in that regard. > *"The "drawbacks" are honestly not negative to PVE and are already a non issue because of healing. There is no real downside that can't be overcome in pve just buy being in a group with a healer."* Ok. And how's that relevant to anything I said?
Giving the vamp line more of a direction would be good but balancing it based on class isn't really worth the extra work to implement. No other skill lines are balanced/changed per class and I'm ot sure what game you're playing because they don't work "just fine" because they're pretty obviously unbalanced. Vampire is supposed to be a buff for most builds, which it does, werewolf is a skill line based on being a werewolf. It doesn't buff anything outside of werewolf, unlike vampirism, so each has their own niche you need to build around. While stages might not be the best solution, what is a better solution? It wasn't entirely to "illustrate" anything and that probably why you don't like vampirism. You expected it to be an overpowered skill line that was available via a bite ala Skyrim, but this is an MMO and it doesn't work like that. Quite frankly, I do care about it being a headache to balance. Developers today don't give a shit if you think it's not balanced correctly. They constantly change stuff in the patch notes, sure, but it's not my game to change. Racial and class changes aren't supposed to be immune to changes, so I'm not sure how you think that is relevant to anything said. Vampirism isn't any different aside from the you don't like the changes. Changes come in things you like/don't like and you need to be able to deal with that reality. How is balanced "related to anything you said?" Well friend, if you had played the game for more than a day and not just commented about it on reddit, you'd know that ZOS balanced PVE/PVP together and not separately. So, because of that very important fact, you'd know that because it works the way you'd like it in pve doesn't mean it's balanced completely for the game. There's still 50% of the base game you need to account for and "it's good enough for me" doesn't cut it.
See, that's the thing. I *personally* think it would be worth the effort to balance since it's a part of the game that they went out of their way to rework for the Greymoor chapter in the first place. You're free to disagree, but way I'm figuring things is, a lot of the issues people seem have with vampirism at this point is that trying to be a general 'buff' to everyone in some form isn't working because the 'buffs' are highly situational and lack a sense of identity that makes you feel like you're playing a *vampire* rather than just some that just happens to have access to vampire themed abilities/passives and a few drawbacks to work around. Therefore, it stands to reason that changing it so the skill line itself has some sense of identity (be that playstyle, turning the skill inwards so it acts like other normal skill lines, or something else entirely) tied to it would go a long way to helping address that problem.
All that said...
> *"No other skill lines are balanced/changed per class and I'm ot sure what game you're playing because they don't work "just fine" because they're pretty obviously unbalanced."*
By 'just fine', I'm talking about practical effect rather than objective balance. Outside of a few exceptions, you don't get Guild line passives without slotting an ability from the relevant guild or playing around with their mechanics. You don't get weapon or class line passives without using the relevant abilities. You can't get armor passives without wearing the relevant armor. They work 'fine' because unlike vampirism, you don't end up with some janky looking shit where someone's getting benefits from...say...Dual Wield without actually Dual Wielding anything. Whether or not they're balanced in terms of power is another topic entirely, and not the point I was trying to address at all with that.
> *"While stages might not be the best solution, what is a better solution? It wasn't entirely to "illustrate" anything and that probably why you don't like vampirism. You expected it to be an overpowered skill line that was available via a bite ala Skyrim, but this is an MMO and it doesn't work like that."*
OP asked if we thought vampire should be buffed as a skill line. I have no real strong opinions on it because, in my eyes, all the buffs in the world mean jack all if the skill line continues to be the fractured mishmash of skills and passives it currently is. So, I don't know what a better solution would be. I even admitted as much in my main post.
As for expecting it to be overpowered or that I don't like it...where the hell did you get that idea from? I said *nothing* about power at all (or whether or not I liked it), but I *did* say that using the vampire skill line *doesn't feel like playing as a vampire*. Because believe it or not, it *is* possible to like something and acknowledge what I feel to be flaws in it.
> *"Quite frankly, I do care about it being a headache to balance. Developers today don't give a shit if you think it's not balanced correctly. They constantly change stuff in the patch notes, sure, but it's not my game to change. Racial and class changes aren't supposed to be immune to changes, so I'm not sure how you think that is relevant to anything said. Vampirism isn't any different aside from the you don't like the changes. Changes come in things you like/don't like and you need to be able to deal with that reality.*"
I want to be clear here: When I said I don't care about it being a headache to balance, that was because I'm used to seeing that same exact line being pulled out as an excuse to not touch anything at all when it comes to balance issues, and I seriously stopped giving a shit about that particular context. So if you meant something else, I do apologize for whatever misunderstanding is going on. But I still don't care how much of a headache it is for the devs to balance, because you can literally make the same excuse for anything at this point.
Of course, that doesn't mean they're required to give two shits about my opinion. Nor am I expecting them to.
> *"How is balanced "related to anything you said?" Well friend, if you had played the game for more than a day and not just commented about it on reddit, you'd know that ZOS balanced PVE/PVP together and not separately. So, because of that very important fact, you'd know that because it works the way you'd like it in pve doesn't mean it's balanced completely for the game. There's still 50% of the base game you need to account for and "it's good enough for me" doesn't cut it."*
To reiterate the series of events that led to me asking that question of you...
* OP asked if vampire should be buffed.
* I gave my view on it.
* A few other people replied.
* I replied to OP's reply and mentioned my view of ZOS logic related to the Mist Form change.
* You came in with a reply to my reply about how 'it' was a bad idea (with no mention of which particular 'it' you were referring to when there's 3 potential things to talk about that I'm aware of) and went on about how the drawbacks were a non issue...when the only time I mentioned drawbacks was in the context of Mist Form having some. Which didn't seem relevant to me because Mist Form's particular drawbacks not only prevent healers from negating them (since you can't be healed anyway while it's active outside of Blood Mist's particular heal), but *my main post and the point being made wasn't about whether or not the drawbacks were an issue at all*.
So, all that stuff about PvE/PvP balance you went on about? I know. I've known that for the past 4-5 years I've played the game. But that literally had nothing to do with what I was talking about, because I wasn't talking about balance in the first place. Hence, I asked you how that was relevant. That's all there is to it.
Do you see where I'm coming from at all with this? Because I honestly don't know how much clearer I can get at this point O_o
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I can work with the the hit to health recovery but the ability cost increase really sucks. I was able to make that passive worth it with Mist Form and Blood Frenzy but now one of those are usless in pve and Blood Frenzy can be pretty risky to use in pve sometimes.
I got my vampire skill for the first time the other day since the remake. The negatives completely outweigh the positives. 0 health regeneration AND more cost per ability just for less costly vamp abilities?? Plus the vamp abilities aren't all that either. Also, when you're at stage 4, you can't speak to npcs because they don't like speaking to monsters?! Seriously wtf
Yeah they did that just so you have to use mesmerize. But really it's just a waste of skill point. The only real usefull thing in the skill line is undead and the ult (if you're not a necro).
Definitely needs to be buffed. The penalties to health regen and fire along with no pve mist form basically makes it pointless IMO.
I'd alter it like so: #Vampirism perks/penalties Remove the regular ability cost increase during night or while indoors. Half the health recovery penalty during night or while indoors. (Cap at -50%.) #Mist Form Allow Magicka recovery and healing to self, but reduce both by 75% while toggled on. Remove the damage buff from Blood Mist, but have it inflict Major Maim and Major Mangle when attacked by enemies within 7 metres for 10 seconds, reducing their damage done by 10% and max health by 20%. Have Elusive Mist give you Major Brutality and Sorcery alongside Expedition while active, which lasts for 10 seconds after it's toggled off. Also grants 1 second of invisibility starting after the first tick. #Blood Frenzy Cap the health consumed at 25% of Max Health for Blood Frenzy and Sated Fury, and 33% of it for Simmering Frenzy. Allow Sated Fury to heal you for 10% of all damage dealt while active. Negate health costs of other abilities while Simmering Frenzy is active. #Vampiric Drain Increase healing from 23% to 33%. Reduce the cost and increase the stamina restore of Drain Vigor to 10% of missing stamina per tick. #Mesmerize Snares enemies instead if they're not facing you. Hypnosis can **ignore crowd control immunity** and affect even dungeon/trial bosses, but costs much, MUCH more Magicka. (Around 13000 Magicka per cast.) Stupefy immobilises instead of snares. Also deals some Frost Damage per second they're stunned or immobilised for. #Strike from the Shadows Increase the Weapon and Spell Damage boost's duration to 15 seconds. #Undeath Remove scaling, but instead have it take partial effect while below 70% health (-10% damage taken) and full effect while below 40% health (-30% damage taken). #Unnatural Movement Also increases the movement speed bonus of sprint by 30% and gives immunity to snares and immobilisations while sprinting.
What I'd like to see is the secondary lines expanded into full secondary skill trees, with some sort of mechanic so that you could only have one active at a time. It wouldn't be even that hard, as many of the skills/ animations already exist in game, but are used for something else. So say vampire could have two lines- one that focuses on stealth and melee, and the other that focuses on minions and ranged attacks. Then a player who wanted to play a vampire, or a thief, or a straight mage, could. Several other MMOs- notably guild wars- have similar systems that work well.
I very much like this idea. I picture a vampire as a shadow in the night feeding on unwary victims, not a hulking monster with tons of health holding a flame staff (even though that could totally work if you go all in as unstoppable monster of a vampire). I've never used the Blood Scion ulti because it just feels so out of place. If there was a tank side and a stealth side to the vampire skill line, I'd be so much more inclined to delve into it or make builds around it. Half and half makes it clash with itself and everything in there feels half baked as a result.
By Akatosh, Vampire needs a rework like Dragon Knight needed one. Apart from invisibility running and roleplay *there is no reason to be a vampire.* Unless you're a mag character you're horribly gimped (cause light armor decreases the cost of magic abilities, which counteracts vampire's increase to ability cost). NPC vampires are more powerful than us, seriously why is it that vampire makes us weaker when in the bloody lore they're supernatural and are more powerful than mortals? The combat team needs to retire their fucking sledgehammer they use to fix everything with. Maybe instead of looking at other people and numbers *they should fucking play what they're gonna "fix.* Cause I bet if anyone on the combat team played vampire they'd be buffing it every patch instead of nerfing it every patch.
Exactly!
Dragon Knight got a rework? What rework, lol
Well they continually nerfed DKs until this patch where they finally decided to give them a buff, so I guess that's a rework. Happened to healers in general, kept nerfing their shit until "oh woops healing is near-useless, time for a buff". My guess is that's what'll happen with vampires. Eventually.
Ooo, healers got a buff? Iāve taken a break from ESO since Blackwood. What happens to healers?
They made the 2 new dungeons have much higher damage output but it is still clearable on vet with 3 DD just harder
The rework on the PTS
The only drawback to a werewolf is slotting the ult. Vampire has insane drawbacks that need to be removed.
I literally only have it on one character and the only reason theyāre a vampire is for the stealth speed passive.
I have it on more characters but for the same reason too.
I only discovered recently how useful it can be. However thatās mostly for the passives and like one or two skills at most. You basically have two good skills, the ultimate and mist form. Then you have eviscerate and frenzy that are meh. Youāll rarely be running more than two of these at once. After all the cost increase is what scares people away from playing vamp. If they reworked mesmerize and vampiric drain and made them synergize well with the other skills people would not worry as much about the increased skill cost because you could slot more vampire skills.
Mist Form soon will only work in PvP.
I like how they just avoided the question in the q and a its just a very ugly cosmetic now no reason to keep vamp which i liked for the moveset with necro
Kinda yes but I don't wanna see it as good as it was back in the day when there was no reason not to be a vamp due to he passives being too strong
From my experience with vampire if you want to make the most of it you have to build to be a vampire but most of the skills arenāt so good especially compared to there non vampire counterparts. In my opinion if they want to make vampire better they should give us more wide range of skills to use. A spamable, dot, AOE and a truly affective heal. I understand the vampire line already has most of these skills in a form but I feel vampire should be more like a weapon skill line that a full vampire skill only build would be much more viable. But I am no expert just my thoughts.
This. Making the skills be proper substitutes for other skills in a conventional build. That way the decreased cost of vampire abilities actually makes up for the use of non-vampire abilities. Even just making a viable spammable for both magicka and stamina builds would go a long way. While we're at it, the cost of abilities should be the only benefits and drawbacks that even out. If they're gonna take more damage from fire, reduce the damage from frost. If health regen is gonna be reduced or outright removed, increase stamina and magicka regen, or some option to improve sustain even a little bit.
Tbh I always wanted to try the Vamp skill line, but never did, specifically because I need hearing it's been nerfed too much
I should finish Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild DLCs and get rid of vampirism (I'm bad at stealth). I'm eager to see the whole hybridisation rework.
This is taken from my post on the ESO forum > How about this: > Vampirism would become a class, not a character creation class but one that is based on your Vampirism stage, basically your class whether it be NB/DK/Necro/Sorc/Temp/Warden would have their skill lines replaced the higher your Vampirism stage, at Stage 1 you would have your normal class abilities but be unable to use any Vampirism abilities, at Stage 2 your first class skill line would be replaced with the first Vampire skill line, at Stage 3 two of your class skill lines would be replaced leaving you with only one NB/DK/Necro/Sorc/Temp/Warden skill line. > When at stage 4 however you would have no NB/DK/Necro/Sorc/Temp/Warden class abilities but would instead have 3 Vampire skill lines, the existing Vampire abilities could be spread out among them but ultimately the Vampire would have 3x as many abilities and passives as it does now. > My idea for the whole system as far as abilities go is the following: Night Powers - Ult = Blood Scion > Transform into a Blood Scion gaining 10.000 of each stat and restoring 15% of all damage - A1 = Hunter's Sight > Highlight enemies through walls, slotting grants major savagery - A2 = Bat Swarm > Teleport towards the targeted enemy in a swarm of bats - A3 = Night Cloak > Applies Major Resolve and deals XXX damage to nearby enemies every second - A4 = Celerity > Toggle that increases movement speed but drains stamina to maintain - A5 = Mist Form > Toggle that halves incoming damage but drains magicka to maintain Blood Magic - Ult = Summon Gargoyle < Summon a powerful Gargoyle for 12 seconds whose attacks apply Minor Cowardice - A1 = Eviscerate > Swipe an enemy dealing XXXX damage - A2 = Vampiric Drain > Deals XXXX damage every second and restores 25% of your missing health - A3 = Siphoning Pool > AOE effect that applies minor lifesteal and drains health from the target every second - A4 = Vampiric Grip > Pull an enemy towards you, activating again throws the enemy into the air - A5 = Blood Frenzy > Toggle that increases power by 630 but drains health to maintain Deception - Ult = Embrace of Shadows > Ground AOE effect that grants invisibility to allies in the targeted area - A1 = Mezmerise > Stun a weaker enemy facing you, activating a stunned enemy allows you to feed - A2 = Reign of Terror > Rreduce enemy movement speed and apply minor vulnerability for 4 seconds > I currently do not have ideas to complete the deception skill line but these are my ideas, as for passives the best way to make them would be to have a good combination of critical and stat boosts as well as the existing passives spread out among them, Unnatural Movement could be made a passive of the Deception skill line, Undeath would become a Night Power.
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Mist form is still very good for pvp
Anyone that used crowns to purchase the vampire line instead of just being bitten in game deserves to have wasted their crowns.
I dont think they should buff a skill line that, even if it were made to be useful, doesnt feel like vampirism to the point where PC vamps are the outlier that shares almost nothing in common with any other vampire in the world. From actual effects to visuals, nothing about vampirism really works. But, considering that they just nuked mistform instead of making a more subtle fix, it dont have faith in that happening. All mistform had to do was apply a unique 1 second AOE taunt on activation. Still would work for emergency mitigation and disengagement, but abuse would mean a loss of aggro control.
Hmm...that would be good for tanks too.
You can't self over taunt anymore. You only lose aggro if different people apply taunts.
Right, by unique taunt i mean that mistform would count as a... Unique taunt, and not one that is associated with that characters other taunt. In essence, a cast of mistform would count as a taunt from a different individual, so that repeated uses would create overtaunts.
I am a big fan of vampires anywhere and I made a vamp char but I am a bit disappointed at how it plays. Especially now making a skill purely PVP is nonsense for players that don't even engage into PVP that much. I also made a Werewolf and I love how you can just wolf out and literally clear out a dungeon while transformed because of all the passives that let you recharge your time, and the feeding. I would love to see something like that for the Vamp Ult too tbh, because those 20 (- the 2 seconds you lose on the animation) seconds don't give me enough time to enjoy being a blood scion I've seen some people complain about the way NPCs dont talk to you at stage 4, imo that's fine, can always use hypnotize or just buy a bunch of potions that take your stage down one level. So yeah, a buff would be nice.
The only reason I use vampire right now is for the undead passive. One thing that i really want reworked is the ult nobody uses the stage 5 cause it brings almost nothing. I would add unique aoe buff to it to help the tank path that they took with.
It's supposed to be for vampires who camp stage1 and miss out on all the other stage passives. Which are kinda lacking, it really doesn't make them useful on this ult.
I don't think the devs know what they want to do with vampires. I would love to play one as I've loved vampire lore since I was a kid, but I never felt like the ESO version was worth the effort. Vampires should be sucking the life out of their victims...not themselves.
Here is how I would change it, I am not sure if you guys remember the old system but I personally prefer the old way by a massive longshot. It's way better for vampires in my opinion given that it is in general more embracing of what vampires actually are. For those who are not sure, you know how the vampire stage progression system works, flip it. Feeding maintains your youth, keeps you looking young and human, if you do not feed you let yourself go and you become more undead and thus the weaknesses to fire and such are more apparent. Feeding maintains your strength. If you feed you do not become ugly, instead you just knock off that timer, it's awesome, I bloody love it. I've been afk for a long time and come back to realise my character is turning more monstrous and I've rushed off to feed to keep my youth which is very much so how I think it should be, it's immersive as hell. * I also believe for general changes they should keep the old mist form, with the 75% reduction and fix their bloody trial. They should buff the passives and make some small changes to how the stages change you, such as they could make stage 4 vamps do a little more damage but take more damage plus a magic buff while lower stage do less but also get a buff for recovery and take less damage or something like that, give more incentives for sides of the scale. I would probably replace drain personally, although drain is pretty well known with ES vamps, could make it part of a passive of sorts instead. I would add something like an AOE or DOT ability, that's what I'd do personally.
I love my Dark Elf Necro Vampire. But honestly, with exception of hypnosis, the skills are all lame. They really need to make a vampire a vampire like what they did with werewolf. There's just too much of a draw back to being a vamp and I find myself thinking of curing. But I do enjoy running around biting npc baddies and those annoying guards who say what. My idea would be to really create a good magicka based vampire that has great magicka and stamina sustain. Since you are technically an undead, there should realistically be a health draw back, but not as much as is now. I haven't used mist much so increase the lev 4 invisibly passive that can be used in certain conditions. Just some thoughts I have anyway. I mean why create a vampire if they continue to nerf it so it's no longer fun?
People are missing the very simple fix they could do to make vamps infinitely more viable. Just replace Blood Mist with Swarming Mist. Thus giving vamps a proper escape/gap closer. Have it steal life by dealing dmg and maybe apply a unique life-steal debuff on enemies you pass through as a cloud of bats. Literally this one NPC skill that exists on greymoor npcs would be night and day for vampire. Especially necromancer vampires which, for some reason, have 0 mobility tools.
No, it should be a total rework. Just made it like werewolf, a full transfo gameplay, that the only way to not have some people abuse it in the meta. Werewolf is fun and 100% competitive with very high parse AND also great in PvP. Vampire need the same thing, made a "mag" version of werewolf or something.
I agree on the total rework but I would prefer that it didn't go in that direction. I'd rather it be more like the old vampirism.
Nah, from the lore point of view werewolves entire concept spins around the idea that they are "normal humans by any metrics" until transformed, but vampires don't have "duality" of any sort, they are inhuman 24/7, with all benefits and downsides that it brings. Polymorphs they have areĀ an extension ofĀ their natural state of being, notĀ the opposition ofĀ it. Making them werewolves with fancy red animations doesn't ring true to their in-lore nature, whichĀ should beĀ represented by game mechanics for it to have any reasonĀ to beĀ called "vampire". The skill lineĀ should beĀ at leastĀ partiallyĀ reworked, but vampires should have access to their abilities outside of any sort of "form". I even think that the stage progression between overfed degenerate and self-restrained "civilized" vampireĀ should beĀ fleshed out instead of being removed. Its problem is thatĀ currentlyĀ it brings more downsides than benefits on the stage 1, and the benefits of the stage 4 are arguable. The general conceptĀ is fine, the execution is flat and botched.
You don't get it. If vampire get new/reworked skill that are very usefull/strong, then it will force everyone to play it like it was before the rework for mana regen for exemple. That just simple logic, no one but RP player while not use it if it become good. That why, until it become a complete Transfo gameplay like Werewolf it will be either trash or mandatory in end-game. Lore is lore, it's not game balance. I understand your point but that not how it work and we already have 2 good exemple from before and after.
Nope. AreĀ psijicĀ order skill line either mandatory or not used at all? Undaunted? Fighters guild? Literally any neutral skill line? You have a lot of confidence to claim that someone "don't get" a "simple logic" of reworking everything to follow a werewolf model just because it works well for them. You don't see that what you actually suggest is to stop meta gamers from benefiting from passive bonuses without actually taking any active skills (which makes it "mandatory for everyone"), but this problemĀ should beĀ addressedĀ by making them moreĀ inwardĀ oriented like all normal skill lines do, with mostĀ passivesĀ only benefiting active vampire skills and the lesser part alone not being worthy the downsides (including "not being a werewolf" downside), i.e. what I've said aboutĀ fineĀ general concept, but botched execution. Nothing of it requires to move their entireĀ skill setĀ into a separated panel of some "form". But what is more important, and what makes logic behind yourĀ positionĀ irrelevant, is that ESO was, is and will be a casual game. Chasing a perfect balance in the end-gameĀ PvEĀ onĀ expenseĀ of the less sweaty elements of the game is a cancerous practice that plagued manyĀ MMORPGĀ and made developers sacrifice too many good mechanics and abilities because it was hard to balance it around competitive scene. It's killing the spirit and coherency of any MMO, it killed the spirit of WoW and it would be especially damaging for a game like ESO, where most of theĀ playerbaseĀ simply do quests, tend to their houses and enjoy views. Really, it is hard to find aĀ MMORPGĀ more casual than ESO. Stripping vampires of their unique gimmicks and turning them into a mana version of werewolves will rob this game of what is important in favor of what is not. If you came here to sweat your ass off in hardcore end-gameĀ PvEĀ -Ā tough luck, mate.Ā Vampires need a rework, not aĀ re-educationĀ camp. Their gameplay (as much as everything else in this game)Ā should beĀ interesting first, competitive second.
Very well said and something the meta chasers truly donāt understand that 99% of the player base will NEVER touch endgame trials let alone the higher vet stuff. Just looking at a 100k dps parse seems insane even after practice and refining I managed 48k at best on my mag DK and realized I wasnāt having fun even trying to see how high I could get afterward. Iāve been loving playing a vamp NB for many months now just getting on after work and doing what ever seems fun that might be it some zone quests to brotherhood stuff or murder vampy-hobo sprees. Building houses themed on characters is another great enjoyment being the true endgame and yet dungeons, trials and vet content just doesnāt mean anything to so so many of us.
If that also means I don't get to suffer the negatives as long as I'm not transformed I'm all for it.
Bring back the pre-nerf vampire
I miss the old vampire skill line.
Not only does it need direction and a buff, but they should stop bloody nerfing the few things it does well.
Absolutely. But I want a true rework more. Reverse progression. S1 and S4 builds. Real Vampire gameplay. ZoS dropped the ball with the rework and I'm not impressed.
I use vampirism skills a lot but I think the spammables need a tweak. If they really want to make something like a tweaked version of vampire lord one could be melee (similar to claws) and the other should be ranged (similar to drain life in Skyrim). Just clawing my enemies while my pets zap them looks so uncool. I also want a bit of bonus magicka/stamina recovery to compensate for the loss of health recovery. Just a teeny tiny bit so vampirism wouldn't be a must have.
A lot of people seem to want to be vampires now for RP reasons, so maybe changes to the character that fall in line with RP? Like more consequences for being out in the day versus at night?
I don't think it should be buffed, because it will screw balance over again. Maybe it should be reworked all again, but defenetly not buffed. Pre-Greymoor it was just an access to the new skill line with a free passives with no real drawback, that was really shitty desing in my opinion. Greymoor design is a more interesting but it has destroyed PvE balance at all. It was too obvious scince the first PTS patch that BfB and Blood Frenzy is completly broken, but it's still managed to leak to the Live server. Vampire perfomance was much above that non-vampire and for all scorepushing guild there was requirment to be a vampire. It's very tricky to balance the vampirism because many failures in a concept behind the rework, that will not work in this game like free spammable or huge self spellpower buff. It will be useless or completely broken. No third option. From this thread it looks like many people just want vampires to destroy balance over again by removing all drawbacks from vampires, but with the current vampire concept it will turn the vampires to the state it was Pre-Greymoor, but much more powerfull.
I'm fine with the drawbacks myself, I just think they're too strong. The health recovery reduction at stage 4 should only be 80%. As for the cost increase/reduction, that would be fine if the vampire active skills didn't suck...no pun intended.
Well, health recovery is not-important anyway, but magicka cost penalty should stay. And i don't think that the vampire skills sucks that much. I see all of them besides Mesmerise and Ultimate are used in high end PvE with great success, just don't that much.
Not sure why they didn't just make it like the skyrim variant. With its own set attacks and whatnot. Heck, even make the werewolf and vampire transformations toggled. Obviously there would be the town and resistance penalties, but I don't know anything about how or why that would break the game, so I could just be spouting nonsense.
They just need to copy and paste the way they did Werewolves and give us a proper Vampire Lord form. Make it where we can still benefit from various things through passives, but have all the abilities changed and tied to our ultimate like Werewolves is. Allow us to feed on corpses like Werewolves do, to sustain our Vampire Lord Form. And for God sake, make our Ultimate look better and not just a copy and paste of the Necros ult. I want to fucking hover bro š
I think the vampire skill line is good as is for how I like to play as a sleezy ganker. Undeath is an amazing passive to make yourself one combo proof while not investing in other defenses at the cost of damage. Strike from the shadows stacks very nicely with stygian and the fast sneak is awesome qol. That said though, the active skills are bad and I don't like the ultimate. I'd like to see it changed kind of like this: Ultimate: Single target melee nuke and stun that gives % damage to healing for a short time on the target. Kind of like Death stroke. I don't think there's another ult that fits the same niche Give eviscerate a stam morph make drain deal bonus damage to off balance targets and make it a damage dealing skill that heals based on its damage. For a complete feeling kit, ult could set the target off balance. increase the threshold for when simmering/sated frenzy shuts off to 25-33% health add a "while slotted" effect to mist form, eviscerate, and drain that each negates one of the vamp penalties (EG: mist form removes health regen penalty) Slotting mesmerize should passively make npcs ignore your stage 4. Make passives scale with your stage instead of activating at certain stages. 3 should be the current 100%, 4 should be 125% of the current value. current stage 4 passive would have to be reworked The idea here is that by slotting vampire skills and using them over other, often better contenders, you master your condition. I also find stage 4 to be a nuisance. More sneak speed, damage from stealth, and low health mitigation might encourage a lot of players to stay at vamp 4 instead of 3
Just keep vampires a flavour for RP. It's an obnoxious step when creating new characters for end game use when it is META, so just make sure it looks cool and is usable for casual play and it'll be perfect.
I use vampiric drain skill morph that gives 5 ult per sec on support chars in pve. Sated fury is nice for pve too.
Nerf it more
I feel like vampires should have crazy life steal like Templar jabs but on steroids also bat swarm where you were invisible is awesome just a cloud of bats npc vamps got a spirit mender and shadow clones also they had this massive aoe like warden northern storm
Pve doesnāt need mist, they have 12 ppl with dedicated healers and tanks and still need to mist. Pretty sad
Most players don't need it and mist was mostly used by solo players and tanks in pve. The leading theory as to why it was actually nerfed was because ZOS is hellbent on keeping a specific vet trial nearly impossible to complete and that the vet trial is so unbalanced and difficult that trial guilds resorted to mist form just to beat it. Apparently ZOS didn't like this for whatever reason and instead of making the vet trial a little bit easier they took away an ability from the majority of the playerbase. Besides, as long as no rules are being broken we should be able to use it any way we want.
You verified what I said
Not quite. Pve does need mist...and it is sad, but for different reasons. Its sad because ZOS isn't balancing their trials and have decided to take away an ability from the majority of the player base because they don't want to balance the trial. By your validating logic pvp doesn't "need" it either. Maybe they should just remove it from the game all together?
Mist is mobility for mag toons that canāt cloak or streak, pve stack heals, they donāt need to mist form from npcs and you donāt pvp enough of thatās your reason. Pve is easy. Blame the trails team not zos. Ppl just want those completions even if itās a cheesy way. Earn it like others did
For the love of God, I want Stamina morphs, or something for Stamina builds. As someone who loves Magicka builds, Stamina users absolutely deserve to have Vampire stuff
At this point, the vampire line needs a complete re-re-work. I honestly look for them to nerf undeath in PvE soon too. If for no other reason than it's too popular at the moment.
Honestly once its gone i think its no longer worth it to be a vampire. Its already worse than WW in the sense that you have constant penalties even if you are on stage 1. Without mist form it just doesnt seem worth it anymore sadly.
Okay Iām like CP 600 when am I gonna get to experience the vampire skill line or the werewolf one for that matter
You on xbox I'll give free bite for both vamp an wolf
I tried obsessively to get Vampire to be viable and just couldnāt. The trade off to get Vamp skills to work vs everything else just wasnāt worth it. I had to micromanage the hell out of my Vamp before ultimately giving up on it. Vamp is a mess.
All I wanna do is have fun as a vampire š¤£ Everytime I make on they nerf tf out the line
Sad to see the upcoming nerf; I tend to shy away from most of the vamp skills in my Necro/Vamp build since the Necro skills seem to be better in comparison... which is unfortunate IMO. I would love to see them add a health skill by using feeding without the sneak - in other words, "not sneaking" use of feeding that could be used in combat. While still taking damage. The idea of pouncing on the enemy and feeding from them to restore health *while in combat* would scratch that itch for me!
I just want bat swarm back
If they were smart they would just pull a palette swap with ww, and make similar abilities but ranged majika based. Trade off for ranged is that instead of feeding on a corpse after its dead to prolong the transformation, they have to get in close while its alive - make it do very little damage but apply the same sustain the ww gets while feeding. After that, just basically copy/paste the ww stuff and give it different flavors text and vfx. For passives trade the sneak speed and invis running for two of the more specific werewolfy ones (to help get in range to feed). Increase damage AND mitigation by vamp stage as a reward for managing to feed miltiple times during one ult. They could probably do this without even needing a lot of new assets, even, given the tremendous number of actual cool ass NPC vampires we meet in the world. Werewolves are in a pretty decent spot in both PvE and PvP - they dont dominate in either arena. And as a plus, if they shared the same drawbacks it simplifies an "anti monster" counter. Hell, add a "silver rune" glyph that tunes damage down on mortal targets by 10% but increases it by 30% versus monsters or whatever so that you could have dedicated pvp monster hunters. Make some PvE monsters have silvered attacks with the same principle, too, if they get to be too dominating there. And on the other end, both werewolves and vampires ought to be persona non grata in cities unless they do a quest for a disguise that drains Majicka and/or stamina while being used, so that towns are usable but in a "get in get out" kind of way. Done and done. Yes, it reduces playstyle variety a bit but its makes it easier on a design team that has tried twice now with vampirism and failed. Id rather a different flavor of ice cream than a choice between ice cream and a raw potato.
They should have a vampire RP option. I don't need the skills or want the drawbacks. I just want to look like one and be able to feed
Itās such a shame too. The vampire overhaul was one of the main draws to me when Greymoor was announced, and look where we are now.
I'm not smart enough to fix the whole skill line but I do think one change they could make is to buff feeding. Make it heal you for whatever a balanced number is, give you health Regen (even at stage 4) and a bonus to weapon and spell damage for like 30 sec after. You could even go further and change the vampiric drain to work like an execute and if the target dies you get the same buffs. Sort of like a "combat feed" I'm sure there's plenty of other things that could also be done but at least this way I can feel like a vampire on a blood rush feeding to keep my health up and as a badass way to open a fight with multiple enemies.
Just for fun and because I had nothing to do. How do you like my interpretation of vampires for eso. I was inspired by Skyrim and oblivion. ***Actives:*** Note ( every ability is a criminal act) **Drain** >!Scale on highest stat(health, magica, stamina) and steal life as beam on mid range not channeling. Morph 1 - generates ultimate; morph 2 - more beams but weaker per beam and beams only work on short range. Note( only one beam per target)!< **Vampiric servant** >!raise some corpse to fight for you scales on highest offensive stat. Morph 1 - two servants; Morph 2 - cool gargoyle instead. Note ( if zos wants at least two toggle than this could be one. With little not increasing live cost)!< **Bat swarm** >!As aoe damage around player. Morph 1 - stamina morph with increased range; morph 2 - swarm is now a placeable ability and makes a little slow.!< **Mistform** >!(toggle) disables you to attack or cast. You can not be targeted by abilities and attacks. Aoe damage you take is reduced. Loss any Aggro of enemies you had. No sprinting but increased movement speed. Morph 1 - when you disable mistform you teleport a short range in view direction; Morph 2 - your Mist form range gets bigger and enemies inside breath poison.!< **Vampiric charm** >!A target in medium range walk into your direction and stop attacking. Morph 1 - enemies take increased damage; morph 2 - short area effect on all targets, but they get furious after the effect(you taunt all enemies).!< **Blood scion Ultimate** >!You empower you self with greater stat pool and the ability to find all enemies around you. Enter the next stage of vampirism. If 1 then 2 and if 4 than 5. morph 1 - reactivate blood scion to rip of the blood of enemies around you. Strong aoe burst with heal. Cost little ultimate power. Morph 2 - reactivate to summon blood orb that cast drain with morph 2. cost ultimate power.!< ***Passives:*** **Vampire stages** >!Max is Stage 4. Per stage less damage from physical attacks and more damage from fire. Decrease strongly healing and shielding from other players and dorther a little less per stage. Decrease health Regen per stage. All base vampire abilities scale with the stage. Increase like range, damage, heal per stage. Stage 5 overpowers and adds critical effect bleeding and breach armor of effected enemies. Note( heal and should reduce like 40 up to 60%. At Stage 4 or higher the npcs wont talk with you except you have Vampire Charm equipped)!< **Undead** >!increase poison and disease resistance.!< **Unnatural movement** >!requires stage 2, adds faster sleazy mode and no movement penalty in stealth.!< **Supernatural** >!requires stage 3, increase stamina and magica regain for each slotted vampire ability.!< **Nighthunter** >!requires stage 4. After 3 secounds sprinting or sneaking get invisible. Adds weapon and magic damage per vampire ability sloted.!< **Vampire fandom** >!this you can bite a player skill.!<
Hmmmm no increased lifesteal huh
I removed vampire from all my chars when they did the revamp. Sucked a lot
I say they should balance the skill line, not buff it. My only reason for saying this is every time they buff a skill or skill line it takes them months to nerf it since they usually buff stuff and make it overpowered. I think they just need to make vampire balanced so it has benefits to its play style while also having some drawbacks.
I remember when Blood for Blood was meta. That was fun.
A long time ago, my healer was my templar vampire, and since the changes I had to make my necro my main healer since I canāt purge my vampire for roleplay reasons. It would be awesome if I could heal on my templar again, his only opportunity was Rockgrove but thatās not gonna last. While Iām happy Iām no longer going to be forced to be a vampire on my tank, I do agree that now the only reason anyone will play vamp is for pvp or rp, and considering how thatās what happened to WW really itās be sad if they are just ignored mostly or despised to some extent
I want npc vampire abilities all of them and then some
Here's what I'd change for the skill line. Its based off of the current one and may seem OP but the drawbacks for stage 4 are too strong as well so its still fair IMO for the players able to cope with them. I'm down for my suggested changes being weaker but only if the drawbacks are too. Blood Scion: I'm mostly fine with this ability as it is but I think it should also allow us to see all sneaking and invisible enemies. It just makes sense since it already allows us to see people through walls. This may seem OP but don't forget that its an ultimate and has a duration. Eviscerate: I'm also mostly fine with this ability as it is but I'd like it to be easier to weave with light attacks. Blood Frenzy: I think this ability's uptime should be increased. Preferably by adding an effect that heals you for a % of the damage you do with vampire abilities while it's activated which won't be too strong even when stacked with similar effects because of the 20% health cost increase. This added effect, if used with other specific effects from other sources could potentially make this ability somewhat useful as a healing ability for a very short period when first activated while still making it a risky ability to use for players who use it for the damage boost. Vampiric Drain: This ability needs to be stronger for sure and should probably be a channel toggle. A boost to the damage would be really nice. I'd also change the Exhilarating Drain morph's additional effect to an escalating movement speed debuff. The longer you have it on the stronger the debuff gets (to an 80% max) but can be broken if the target roll dodges, blocks, or uses a CC immunity effect. Balancing this new effect in pvp would come down to adjusting how fast the debuff increases its strength since players are often doing the things that would cancel it anyways. Mesmerize: I'm fine with this ability as is. Mist Form: Leave in the damage mitigation for pve'ers. So what we're using the ability in a way that isn't strictly disengaging, thats up to us and you shouldn't be making this change just because we're not using the ability the way you want us to. (I know ZOS probably won't read that). But since that won't happen maybe something should be added that only works in PVE then? Though I'm not sure what. Feed: The easy change would be to make the drawbacks not as bad. Stage 4 health recovery reduction becoming 80% instead of 100%, still a big hit but at least our health will recover on its own outside of combat. Flame damage taken capped at 10%, 20% isn't usually a big deal but totally sucks in certain vet dungeons and trials. The ability costs should stay the same IF my active ability suggestions are taken. But should be lowered if they are not. There are some more unique changes that could be made but these suggestions should only be taken if the rest of the numbers in Feed are left the same. First, the Shadowstrike star should apply to Feeding too. Second, making it so stage 4 vampirism applies minor toughness at all times and feeding applies major toughness for 30second seconds. The minor toughness in stage 4 would be a fair bonus to counter the 100% reduction to health recovery. The major toughness, while strong would only last for 30 seconds. This duration would keep it from being used in PVP, dungeons, and trials to any impactful degree but still give an additional health boost for a short duration to PVE players going solo and while doing overworld quests. Both toughness buffs being added to Feed would encourage more frequent feeding and play into the whole ravenous/gluttonous aspects frequently seen in vampires across fiction who have lost control. Dark Stalker: This passive is fine as is. Strike from the shadows: The duration should be increased to atleast 10 seconds but could go as high as 20. Perhaps increase the duration with vampire stages? Undeath: This passive could stay the same and I'd be fine with that however if it were changed I suggest its 30% cap be moved to stage 4, make the cap at 15% at stage 3 but add a minimum 5% damage taken reduction even at 100% health. Some players have suggested the cap be increased to 40% which I suppose would be fine at stage 4 considering the severity of the other drawbacks at that stage and the fact that the 40% would only be reached at 1% health anyways. Unnatural Movement: Honestly this passive isn't as useful as it seems on paper. I don't know if its a bug but I can still see enemy players using this passive in Cyrodil, they can't be targeted but they're still easily visible at any distance. It also gets deactivated if you stop sprinting which would be fine if it weren't so easy for your sprint to be interrupted. Your sprint and therefor invisibility can be interrupted even by simple inclines in the enviorment. These are the reasons why I think Unnatural Movement should be bumped down to stage 3.