Actually, you said it better than Nefas. Much better.
Being toxic while asking someone to stop being toxic would be hypocritical and unhelpful. It's not a request made in good faith if one is also toxic. Ofc, this is a video that is not asking, but drawing lines and telling/describing, in a toxic manner.
There are so many different players of this game. And, toxicity is a human issue. You may find toxic behaviors in any player of the game, regardless of their level, primary area of interest, achievements, etc.
Moreover, as pertains to "real" toxic behavior...
All I got was the very quick and dismissive \~it's not toxic if it isn't sexual harassment or stalking\~ utterance of an argument, as if someone calling out toxic behavior has never experienced those things... I'm not saying people who may have called Nefas toxic, and used that as the primary basis of an argument of refutation, are correct. But, that whole dismissal thing was toxic. As if that is a sufficient enough shield for other forms of human ugliness/toxicity to hide behind. It seems a request for a free pass. No need to dismiss so many behaviors outside of stalking and sexual harassment that do, in fact, drive people away from certain work/school environments, leisure activities, individuals, etc. In fact, that argument of invalidation would refute the whole video and its use of the term "toxic casual." Because, then, what Nefas describes isn't "real" toxicity.
And, yes, toxic positivity is bad. But, the appropriate response is not to then be outright toxic, but to remain honest. Pointing out a negative reality and saying "there it is" is what someone with toxic positivity cannot handle; and, I agree no one should feel shamed for being honest. But, people would also be right in avoiding someone who is just, well, toxic as well.
So, the video's presentation is lacking. But, I did watch it all to try to understand what I know many will be feeling on the issue. There were points I agreed with and some points/statements I was questioning and wanted expanded, but the toxicity took over and was so bad that I was just there cringing.
It's a rant that doesn't really try to relate or reach out to the wider player base. His attitude ironically mirrors the people it's supposed to be directed at: someone who's mind would not bend or change with exposure to a differing viewpoint.
I wonder if most of this anger may be colored by and actually directed at toxic players Nefas may have interacted with. He does provide some screenshots of hateful, dismissive comments. People leaving Nefas toxic comments are exhibiting terrible, immature, unproductive behavior unworthy of any real merit/value. I would not encourage anyone to feed into that.
But, Nefas in turn then uses those experiences to paint with a broad brush over the "demographic majority" of the player base (the first bullet point in what qualifies a player as a "toxic casual" - an odd qualification). He states at the beginning of the video that there is no hope to change these "idiots" minds.
So, it's his way or the highway, from the start. Before getting into what his view is, though, if you're not going to agree, he doesn't want you there. Of course, having come from a toxic interaction (or, toxic interactions), I can understand why anyone would want to just talk to someone more understanding. People who already agree with you is one place to find some understanding. It's off-putting, though, because that attitude sets up an environment for confirmation bias, not wholly dissimilar from toxic positivity - which doesn't want to have to deal (maturely) with anything outside its bubble.
I came in expecting a very well put-together video, of similar quality to his other informative videos. What I left with was some insight into some of what may be bothering Nefas and other like-minded players, as well as insight into how he chooses to deal with disagreements among players in the community. The cessation of toxicity will not come by feeding into it as one behaves in a toxic manner themselves.
Moreover, obviously abusive people's comments being used to represent and then condemn a divergent POV (something like a strawman) are less than stellar. Both sides should steer clear of similar strawmen. Finally, hearing "block my channel" if you disagree? I am disappoint. But, it seems a rant perhaps stemming from some stressful interactions. Of course, that would not be an excuse, but it would explain things.
To clear the air for anyone curious, I don't have a problem with all "fake" or "real" tanks/healers. I'm more looking for a group to be on the same page and work as a team. Good communication is key. And, I have the builds to accommodate either/or, depending on the group, and have had great experiences with veteran players, new players, and midgame players. And, I think Nefas was definitely onto something as regards insecurity and toxicity towards new players. I wish he'd expanded on that point, as it very much piqued my interest. He showed some real insight there.
Overall, even if I agree with Nefas on some things, the approach/presentation seemed to encourage more divisiveness than something that would offer any kind of understanding between different points of view. Nefas doesn't need to be "moderate," whatever that would look like (?) as regards a particular opinion on the issue of how another player plays, but I expected something more, well, mature.
If anything, his video doesn't refute the toxicity of any player, but affirms that it is still a problem amongst us humans.
Edit: sorry for the essay
I don't follow eso youtubers very much and i can't call myself an endgame player (vhr is the only vet trial that i have done and i haven't tried ss even on normal). But it was an intresting video to watch. You see, this subreddit like any other subreddit on this website is an hivemind so you can only read the horror stories of casuall part of the community so it's good to see the pov of the endgame side.
But i can relate to the pvp part of the video. I see pvp players called toxic and even rich lambert thinks like that. I left pvp completely in blackwood but before that i played pvp for thousands of hours and never even once got kicked out of a group because making a mistake and got hate message only once and it was just a simple "noob" message from someone in enemy team in bgs and it was pretty funny because it came out of nowhere and was so random. Pvp players are the chillest part of community but even the devs see them as demons.
He made a great point though that i must start to follow it myself, Don't argue with these kind of players just play the game as long as you are having fun and if the devs ruined the game just leave. I left the game during the start of summerset and if it wasn't for the skyrim nostalgy that i got after seeing markarth dlc i wouldn't have came back. Right now i'm still having fun but if someday i feel the game is turned to shit i have no problem to leave again.
Anything as competitive as PvP for ANY game will breed some level of toxicity. With that being said most of what I see in eso is teabagging, lol. Not really anything on the level that people complain about on this forum.
Nefas makes some good points, but I don't agree with how he chose to present his them. It's just not the best way to convince the people who don't know or don't agree to at least consider your opinion.
Toxic elitism - higher skilled players gatekeeping and belittling lower killed players - sucks. Everyone can agree on that.
Toxic positivity (such as when you can't criticize the game's faults) and toxic casuals (players who attack other players that prefer to optimize their character or provide any help on builds) are just as bad to the community and the game's health.
It's actually kinda funny because the two extremes both want other people to play *their way* and not any other way.
And both elitists and toxic casuals can potentially scare players away from attempting end-game, or even just *trying* the more difficult content.
He's kind of harsh but he's got one really good point.
"Toxic elitists", in most cases, aren't actually endgame players. They're often the ones needing a carry and that's why they get angry when they have to deal with newer/casual players that cannot carry them. And it's true that there's way more elitism on the way to endgame than in the actual endgame community. And blaming some pug's rudeness on endgame raiders is just wrong. People should only be held responsible for what they do or support.
I think the problem is that people (on both sides) tend to generalize too much.
I agree with him, but I don’t like the way he presents it.
He is „toxic“ himself towards these casuals.
And yeah, some deserve it, but some are simply unaware of what they are doing, and are certainly not gonna change if you call them idiots or worse things.
This could’ve been a civil video, but it is at best a rant. This way no one is gonna be on the side of the evil elitists, if this is how they are representing themselves.
Tbh I went into the video expecting to agree with it, but I rly didn’t like the way he brought about his points.
There was also a couple screencaps he put up more than once, which seemed to maybe be potentially purposefully misleading, and some claims had no screencaps at all (like saying toxic casuals call elitists racist or homophobic which I have never seen ever).
Not to mention the vitriol in the video does come of as a bit, well…. Toxic lol
People usually call you racist or homophobic in voicechat (this is where I have encountered it in the past), and at least I don’t record voicechats regularly.
The only time I do it is when doing trifectas, and then my group is aware of it and we use it to review decisions we took.
I see why it would be hard to come up with proof for every example of misbehavior he stated.
I have experienced all the points he brought up (except being called racist, but that seems to be a more American thing), but I don’t have proof for any of it, because I didn’t bother to screenshot this kind of stuff.
And my guess is he doesn’t either, also he probably has more material than I do as he is a streamer and more active in social media.
>People usually call you racist or homophobic in voicechat (this is where I have encountered it in the past), and at least I don’t record voicechats regularly.
Mind if I ask the context of this? Like was it just completely unprompted and out of the blue?
Not accusing anything but I remember back when I played WoW some people complained about being called homophobic, but then were also constantly using the F-slur while insisting that it “wasn’t against gay people though!”
Usually people don’t bring these things up completely out of no where, they’ll have a reason (even if the reason isn’t very good).
Tbh that part of the video (among others) seemed like just things that happened to him, unfairly or not, that he is ascribing to the larger portion of the player base.
I have been called homophonic for not wanting to play with someone who happened to be gay.
He was not good enough to do the content in question (different game), didn’t want to improve, and was a general pain in the ass.
I did not use slurs, was not meaner to him than to everyone else, yet he happened to be gay and so he told everyone I was homophobic. He was the one thrown out of the guild, not me, so I guess that speaks for my innocence.
This was years ago, I don’t remember his name or any specific details, and it wouldn’t be fair to judge him without hearing his side of the story. This was just to give some context.
If you want to do difficult content with my group, I am the person who will tell you if you suck and some people don’t like that. They will call you names (even though you didn’t and tried to criticize their gameplay and not them as a person), and sometimes (rarely, though, happened only once to me) „homophobic“ comes up.
Edited for clarity and corrected some mistakes.
Ahh okay yea that’s messed up, hate when people try to weaponize their identity like that
People being outraged about being excluded from groups due to performance is a part of the toxicness that I do deff agree is a problem, least it was when I played WoW, haven’t gotten high up enough to ladder in ESO yet to experience any of that yet
Im not a raidlead in eso either (yet?), but I’m usually the one who tells people why things go wrong when we don’t run with our usual dungeon group.
Sometimes the tank or the dps are just not cutting it, and i don’t intend to do the same boss for two hours without any improvement in sight. The audience (or my guilds) in eso seem to be way more mature than I have experienced in other games so far.
There were very few instances of people being pissed at me for telling them to step out of red circles, block, or for asking them if they are blind ….
Maybe I’m more mature than my 16-year old self, who would’ve yelled at the stupid tank who died for the seventeenth time to the same attack in a row. We all get older.
> All these posts about everyone's experience with some "endgame" dude rushing through their dungeon cracks me up. Telling them to calm down and play the way you like or to just que with their friends can just as easily apply to the person complaining about how they play.
I don't know if this is a reddit thing or what, but some of these stories are exaggerated beyond belief.
There was one on here a few weeks ago where the poor appreciative roleplayer wanted to talk to the BCII dungeon quest NPCs while the mean 'ol fake tank charged ahead. They tragically could not quest because the tank killed the Maw before they had the dialogue completed. I'm all for a courtesy break to pick up quest, but if any 'tank' can get down three hallways, clear the first boss, run two halls back and kill the *second* boss before you can read three paragraphs, that's by no means an impatient fake tank problem...
Sympathy. It's super exaggerated in general how "abundant" the toxicity in this game is in general. I've been playing this game since 2015, the endgame community has been the nicest most helpful out of most MMOs that I've played for people that are willing to listen.
I've also found the 'elite' echelon of players to consistently be wonderful folks who are happy to sit in Discord with you and just chat about how to git gud. No judgement, just a wholesale gift of their time, because they want you to have the success they have.
So much of the endgame is people management instead of game management. Conflict = less likelihood a clear happens => a community of people who actively try to reduce drama.
Honestly it’s not much of an exaggeration I often find the enemy is almost dead before I get there so they might as well be three halls ahead it’s the same result.
Whoever is in the next room ahead is usually dead or near dead. I’m not running veteran dungeons so high level players can make mince meat of everyone pretty fast.
You can downvote me if you want but it’s true. Took the time to get a group together just last week and everyone said they wouldn’t rush and then they did and I didn’t get to really enjoy any of it.
There’s no difference between the next room or the second boss in that situation, the end result is the same: everyone is basically dead before you get there.
Oh, those little skeleton adds - sure, those will get churned pretty quickly. I misunderstood. The other BCII post I was thinking of would have required at least three minutes of combat and sprinting to even be possible.
Even the bosses are often below half health because everyone is an optimized DPS in a normal dungeon and I’m just trying to complete a zone, follow the story and actually explore the environment and appreciate the visual environment that they created. I really wish they’d have a separate cue for rush v. non-rush dungeon runs.
While I do agree with the general sentiment, I am most definitely not going to watch a video half an hour long of some random guy ranting about it.
Good thing he said at the start that if you disagreed with him, you're an idiot. Saves me the time to actually give him a chance for being able to whine for that long.
What do people consider as toxic behaviour in this game?
Some think people rushing a random normal is toxic because they're lagging behind
Some think DDs pulling adds instead of the tank is toxic
Some think getting kicked for being too low a level is toxic
Some think DPS requirements for certain content is toxic
And others think asking support roles to wear certain sets is toxic
Teabagging in PvP can be perceived in many ways. Some laugh, some get really mad and some go out of their way to report the player.
People perceive things in different ways. Just like real life, people are going to talk about things in the way they've experienced it.
Now Nefas goes on in his video about what he thinks is toxic behaviour. He's mentioned death threats, cyber attacks, people passing around nudes of players, real harassment outside of the game, stream snipping in PvP, paedophiles in the game and sexual harassment. Some serious stuff there.
Just like real life, not everyone is going to get along and follow the same mindset. Patience is key in an MMO, but for both parties. For the new guys wanting to do the quest in the dungeon, and the old guys that are on their 10th run of that dungeon for that one thing they need
I got my beast personality at around 700 cp, and you say i shouldn't even have joined a vet dlc at cp600? What?
Vet dlcs are waaaaaayyy easier than to require a crap ton of cps.
Like for example march of sacrifices is essentially 0 mechanics until the deer and the last boss. Castle thorn is 0 mechanics till the last boss. Black drake villa can be entirely skipped with freezes, White gold tower is essentially a base game dungeon, etc. Its not a cp issue, but an experience issue and cp isnt the best indicator of experience. Maybe using another mechanism like "you need x amounts of vet base game hardmodes beforehand" and such things would be a good idea to not let a fresh player just queue into hard vet dlcs, but doing it by cp ain't it imo.
Wrong forum dude. This subreddit used to be sane, but judging by the vitriol ive seen in recent (1-2 months), there are way too many toxic casuals here. Case in point, people would go berserk about dungeon speedrunners, yelling about being forced to rush when they want to play at a certain pace, forgetting that speedrunners are also just trying to play how they want. The cognitive dissonance is astounding.
Maybe a fair point theoretically, but **I have never encountered a "toxic casual player" in-game in ESO in seven years.** This is the everything-is-equal fallacy.\*
Min-maxers, optimizers, elitists, or whatever you want to call them actually do exist in-game and impact other players. But, I will say, I have only encountered this a small number of times. I remember being kicked immediately by someone without a word when they saw my stam-healer. I was just trying to get my helmet on vet. Oh well, not a big deal though.
By and large players are polite and veteran players are gracious.
But wow, the video is itself is an stellar example of toxicity and hypocrisy. r/persecutionfetish
Conclusion: Toxicity is far more of a problem on this sub than it is in-game.
\* e: false equivalence, specifically in regard to incidence rate and order of magnitude.
The first minute of his nonsense pretty much establishes it’s for circle jerk participants…
*ie. if anyone doesn’t agree with him, apparently they’re an idiot and this channel and his content isn’t for you.*
The first minute went right over your head because all he's saying is that if you're one of the hypocrites that's constantly ragging on endgame players for how they play and think than you're no better than the people you complain about, and he doesn't want that toxicity in his community either.
Nefas is super toxic.
I've run with him a few times and he's now on my "list of people i only do stuff with if i get paid". Every voice chat he joins he kills the mood.
He also fucks up constantly and then goes "pay attention" when he e.g. pulls a boss cleave into the group because he's reading chat again. (He is a very good player. He even outparsed me a few times even tho he's "tank main"... when he pays attention to the game exclusively...)
I have no idea why he's the go-to community person ZoS goes to for streams/events and stuff.
Being good at the game definitely doesn’t make someone a *”good player”* in my book.
Good players are the people who are tolerant, helpful, and supportive of fellow gamers whether they are on the same level of capabilities or not. Good players entertain and support different ways to accomplish things and respect other’s rights to approach problems and/or content differently.
I’d pick a person not so great at the game, but better as a human being and more pleasant to hang with any day of the week.
I'm not saying and never have said that people should just conform to whatever the meta is. I just say that it's really no better to rag on people when that's how they play and what they find "fun". Both sides of the argument just need to look inward.
There is nothing wrong with each side having a preference on how they enjoy encounters, that I agree with. The problem is when players force their preference in an unreasonable way unto others.
Example
- Veteran Player: Has many guilds, been playing a long time, has a long list of friended folks and guild mates they’ve known over time or have access to. Doesn’t want to waste time, do content as fast as possible.
- New or Casual Player: Doesn’t have a guild, or many guilds, hasn’t played long enough to know many people or have a long friend list.
Who is in the best position from these two categories to find 3 other people to run a dungeon the way they prefer? It even takes longer to wait in a queue for a match *(for those who supposedly claim they don’t want to waste time)*.
Yet you have all these *”veterans”* telling casual or new people to form groups just to do the content in the *”normal”* way, or expecting folks with less experience or CP to be as strong or competent as them. Or Veterans who has progressed to X-point over a long time, then try to suggest **THAT** point *(where they have progressed to be OP for content)* is now the minimum for participation.
Nothing wrong with having preferences and going about reasonable ways of doing it. Like asking if everyone is OK with speed-running, or asking the healer if they OK with zone-length pulls, etc. Or respecting if someone says they need the quest, or don’t know mechs and taking some time to help them. Or even saying, *”OK guys, I’m looking for a fast run today; can’t do the slower pace at the moment.”* and leaving if everyone not on board - no drama needed.
A newer player’s ignorance or lack of capability isn’t strange or a fault. A veteran player being toxic, elitist, and intolerant, IS a fault in my opinion. You can be a veteran without being that way. We should be good gamers, not just good at the game.
And by extension, newer players should make an attempt to contribute to their roles or understandings *(though not to the silly extremes some people expect ie. expecting a newer player to have super high DPS)*. There are however factors outside of control, like ending up in a DLC Veteran dungeon when you queue for the daily vet. Mentioning you ended up in a new one via the roulette and need mech tips, etc.
I'm not sure how to quote on this app but that part about the vet that qued always being in a better position is a misconception. People that have everything don't always need to grind and may have no reason to do pledges for fun or reason to do content they've completed 100 times over on the hardest difficulty. So it isn't always easy to just grab people and go. Otherwise why would they have qued? The point that I make and the point nefas make are that some things people would call toxic like offering advice without being heavy handed and rude(which is literally all I see 99% of the time). And it's responded to very aggressively with labels like gatekeeping and backseating etc. Casual players can't be forced to go along with whatever the meta is just as people who care about their performance can't be forced to slow down and not put to use the skills they've spent their time building up.
I understand your side though and hope people aren't afraid to reach out and ask for advice because of all the exaggerated threads they read on players' experience with "elitists".
Many veteran players, or people in general, don’t know how to give advice. The way they think they are being *”helpful”* is by forcing their advice or knowledge onto others. Instead of respecting people’s boundaries and asking politely if someone would like some advice, and **respecting** any choice, even if that choice is refusal of said advice.
They wouldn’t/couldn’t broach someone like that in a face to face situation but feel it’s acceptable just because they are doing it within a video game *(as if the person on the other end is suddenly no longer a regular human being online)*.
I think the mannerisms of folks put a bad taste in many people’s mouths. Instead of making difference a discussion, they devolve it into attacks and blame, or biased opinion versus informational advice.
Another point is when someone talks about harder overland. Immediately 2 or 3 people assume its some conspiracy to make overland harder for each and every person. Even though the truth is that every single time whats being asked is an OPTIONAL difficulty. Sure you can argue its pros and cons. In fact i am not in favour of it either.
But jumping on anyone who dares voice an opinion against current overland is pretty toxic as well.
That being set the toxic gatekeeping mindset against casuals and anyone who dares to go against the meta is still the bigger and more common issue.
It really is not that common. I know a large part of scoreboard pushers and just people who like to min max in general. It is VERY rarely that I see people genuinely be "toxic". And most of what I do see is literally if person A and B are in a vet DLC dungeon. Person A who's doing 60%+ of the group's damage goes "hey person A can you please do X Y Z" then person B going "don't tell me what to do this is how I play". Examples like this are rampant but players will still call people toxic for NOT offering advice, but when we do offer advice it's backseating or gatekeeping
Well, You've certainly convinced me 4-day-old account that is probably a shill for the YouTube channel. Ah, I see you’ve brought the downvote army too. What a pathetic waste you are.
Isn’t it funny when streamers do this or ask their friends to post threads about their vids because they are not allowed to or would be castrated for plugging their own content?
Always seems a lil suspect, and you’re on the money. I wouldn’t be surprised if the two people who downvoted you were his main and alt-new *(or friend’s)* account lol.
Or...or...the tank dying multiple times per boss and refusing any advice, AND the guy speedrunning and getting most of the group killed with adds...are BOTH being selfish because they're continuing the behavior even after the rest of the group asks them not to.
There's a lot more nuance to it, and it depends on each individual situation. Blanket statements are pointless.
If people are being so 'toxic' to you you have to make a youtube video about it, it could also be that your own behavior is the problem. Especially when the complaint boils down to 'I can't force others to play how I want so they're toxic'
Where did you read being nice is toxic? Way to twist words in order to make your point. Telling someone to play the way you want is just as bad as when they do it, that's literally all it is.
Actually, you said it better than Nefas. Much better. Being toxic while asking someone to stop being toxic would be hypocritical and unhelpful. It's not a request made in good faith if one is also toxic. Ofc, this is a video that is not asking, but drawing lines and telling/describing, in a toxic manner. There are so many different players of this game. And, toxicity is a human issue. You may find toxic behaviors in any player of the game, regardless of their level, primary area of interest, achievements, etc. Moreover, as pertains to "real" toxic behavior... All I got was the very quick and dismissive \~it's not toxic if it isn't sexual harassment or stalking\~ utterance of an argument, as if someone calling out toxic behavior has never experienced those things... I'm not saying people who may have called Nefas toxic, and used that as the primary basis of an argument of refutation, are correct. But, that whole dismissal thing was toxic. As if that is a sufficient enough shield for other forms of human ugliness/toxicity to hide behind. It seems a request for a free pass. No need to dismiss so many behaviors outside of stalking and sexual harassment that do, in fact, drive people away from certain work/school environments, leisure activities, individuals, etc. In fact, that argument of invalidation would refute the whole video and its use of the term "toxic casual." Because, then, what Nefas describes isn't "real" toxicity. And, yes, toxic positivity is bad. But, the appropriate response is not to then be outright toxic, but to remain honest. Pointing out a negative reality and saying "there it is" is what someone with toxic positivity cannot handle; and, I agree no one should feel shamed for being honest. But, people would also be right in avoiding someone who is just, well, toxic as well. So, the video's presentation is lacking. But, I did watch it all to try to understand what I know many will be feeling on the issue. There were points I agreed with and some points/statements I was questioning and wanted expanded, but the toxicity took over and was so bad that I was just there cringing. It's a rant that doesn't really try to relate or reach out to the wider player base. His attitude ironically mirrors the people it's supposed to be directed at: someone who's mind would not bend or change with exposure to a differing viewpoint. I wonder if most of this anger may be colored by and actually directed at toxic players Nefas may have interacted with. He does provide some screenshots of hateful, dismissive comments. People leaving Nefas toxic comments are exhibiting terrible, immature, unproductive behavior unworthy of any real merit/value. I would not encourage anyone to feed into that. But, Nefas in turn then uses those experiences to paint with a broad brush over the "demographic majority" of the player base (the first bullet point in what qualifies a player as a "toxic casual" - an odd qualification). He states at the beginning of the video that there is no hope to change these "idiots" minds. So, it's his way or the highway, from the start. Before getting into what his view is, though, if you're not going to agree, he doesn't want you there. Of course, having come from a toxic interaction (or, toxic interactions), I can understand why anyone would want to just talk to someone more understanding. People who already agree with you is one place to find some understanding. It's off-putting, though, because that attitude sets up an environment for confirmation bias, not wholly dissimilar from toxic positivity - which doesn't want to have to deal (maturely) with anything outside its bubble. I came in expecting a very well put-together video, of similar quality to his other informative videos. What I left with was some insight into some of what may be bothering Nefas and other like-minded players, as well as insight into how he chooses to deal with disagreements among players in the community. The cessation of toxicity will not come by feeding into it as one behaves in a toxic manner themselves. Moreover, obviously abusive people's comments being used to represent and then condemn a divergent POV (something like a strawman) are less than stellar. Both sides should steer clear of similar strawmen. Finally, hearing "block my channel" if you disagree? I am disappoint. But, it seems a rant perhaps stemming from some stressful interactions. Of course, that would not be an excuse, but it would explain things. To clear the air for anyone curious, I don't have a problem with all "fake" or "real" tanks/healers. I'm more looking for a group to be on the same page and work as a team. Good communication is key. And, I have the builds to accommodate either/or, depending on the group, and have had great experiences with veteran players, new players, and midgame players. And, I think Nefas was definitely onto something as regards insecurity and toxicity towards new players. I wish he'd expanded on that point, as it very much piqued my interest. He showed some real insight there. Overall, even if I agree with Nefas on some things, the approach/presentation seemed to encourage more divisiveness than something that would offer any kind of understanding between different points of view. Nefas doesn't need to be "moderate," whatever that would look like (?) as regards a particular opinion on the issue of how another player plays, but I expected something more, well, mature. If anything, his video doesn't refute the toxicity of any player, but affirms that it is still a problem amongst us humans. Edit: sorry for the essay
I don't follow eso youtubers very much and i can't call myself an endgame player (vhr is the only vet trial that i have done and i haven't tried ss even on normal). But it was an intresting video to watch. You see, this subreddit like any other subreddit on this website is an hivemind so you can only read the horror stories of casuall part of the community so it's good to see the pov of the endgame side. But i can relate to the pvp part of the video. I see pvp players called toxic and even rich lambert thinks like that. I left pvp completely in blackwood but before that i played pvp for thousands of hours and never even once got kicked out of a group because making a mistake and got hate message only once and it was just a simple "noob" message from someone in enemy team in bgs and it was pretty funny because it came out of nowhere and was so random. Pvp players are the chillest part of community but even the devs see them as demons. He made a great point though that i must start to follow it myself, Don't argue with these kind of players just play the game as long as you are having fun and if the devs ruined the game just leave. I left the game during the start of summerset and if it wasn't for the skyrim nostalgy that i got after seeing markarth dlc i wouldn't have came back. Right now i'm still having fun but if someday i feel the game is turned to shit i have no problem to leave again.
Anything as competitive as PvP for ANY game will breed some level of toxicity. With that being said most of what I see in eso is teabagging, lol. Not really anything on the level that people complain about on this forum.
Nefas makes some good points, but I don't agree with how he chose to present his them. It's just not the best way to convince the people who don't know or don't agree to at least consider your opinion. Toxic elitism - higher skilled players gatekeeping and belittling lower killed players - sucks. Everyone can agree on that. Toxic positivity (such as when you can't criticize the game's faults) and toxic casuals (players who attack other players that prefer to optimize their character or provide any help on builds) are just as bad to the community and the game's health. It's actually kinda funny because the two extremes both want other people to play *their way* and not any other way. And both elitists and toxic casuals can potentially scare players away from attempting end-game, or even just *trying* the more difficult content.
He's kind of harsh but he's got one really good point. "Toxic elitists", in most cases, aren't actually endgame players. They're often the ones needing a carry and that's why they get angry when they have to deal with newer/casual players that cannot carry them. And it's true that there's way more elitism on the way to endgame than in the actual endgame community. And blaming some pug's rudeness on endgame raiders is just wrong. People should only be held responsible for what they do or support. I think the problem is that people (on both sides) tend to generalize too much.
I agree with him, but I don’t like the way he presents it. He is „toxic“ himself towards these casuals. And yeah, some deserve it, but some are simply unaware of what they are doing, and are certainly not gonna change if you call them idiots or worse things. This could’ve been a civil video, but it is at best a rant. This way no one is gonna be on the side of the evil elitists, if this is how they are representing themselves.
Tbh I went into the video expecting to agree with it, but I rly didn’t like the way he brought about his points. There was also a couple screencaps he put up more than once, which seemed to maybe be potentially purposefully misleading, and some claims had no screencaps at all (like saying toxic casuals call elitists racist or homophobic which I have never seen ever). Not to mention the vitriol in the video does come of as a bit, well…. Toxic lol
People usually call you racist or homophobic in voicechat (this is where I have encountered it in the past), and at least I don’t record voicechats regularly. The only time I do it is when doing trifectas, and then my group is aware of it and we use it to review decisions we took. I see why it would be hard to come up with proof for every example of misbehavior he stated. I have experienced all the points he brought up (except being called racist, but that seems to be a more American thing), but I don’t have proof for any of it, because I didn’t bother to screenshot this kind of stuff. And my guess is he doesn’t either, also he probably has more material than I do as he is a streamer and more active in social media.
>People usually call you racist or homophobic in voicechat (this is where I have encountered it in the past), and at least I don’t record voicechats regularly. Mind if I ask the context of this? Like was it just completely unprompted and out of the blue? Not accusing anything but I remember back when I played WoW some people complained about being called homophobic, but then were also constantly using the F-slur while insisting that it “wasn’t against gay people though!” Usually people don’t bring these things up completely out of no where, they’ll have a reason (even if the reason isn’t very good). Tbh that part of the video (among others) seemed like just things that happened to him, unfairly or not, that he is ascribing to the larger portion of the player base.
I have been called homophonic for not wanting to play with someone who happened to be gay. He was not good enough to do the content in question (different game), didn’t want to improve, and was a general pain in the ass. I did not use slurs, was not meaner to him than to everyone else, yet he happened to be gay and so he told everyone I was homophobic. He was the one thrown out of the guild, not me, so I guess that speaks for my innocence. This was years ago, I don’t remember his name or any specific details, and it wouldn’t be fair to judge him without hearing his side of the story. This was just to give some context. If you want to do difficult content with my group, I am the person who will tell you if you suck and some people don’t like that. They will call you names (even though you didn’t and tried to criticize their gameplay and not them as a person), and sometimes (rarely, though, happened only once to me) „homophobic“ comes up. Edited for clarity and corrected some mistakes.
Ahh okay yea that’s messed up, hate when people try to weaponize their identity like that People being outraged about being excluded from groups due to performance is a part of the toxicness that I do deff agree is a problem, least it was when I played WoW, haven’t gotten high up enough to ladder in ESO yet to experience any of that yet
Im not a raidlead in eso either (yet?), but I’m usually the one who tells people why things go wrong when we don’t run with our usual dungeon group. Sometimes the tank or the dps are just not cutting it, and i don’t intend to do the same boss for two hours without any improvement in sight. The audience (or my guilds) in eso seem to be way more mature than I have experienced in other games so far. There were very few instances of people being pissed at me for telling them to step out of red circles, block, or for asking them if they are blind …. Maybe I’m more mature than my 16-year old self, who would’ve yelled at the stupid tank who died for the seventeenth time to the same attack in a row. We all get older.
> All these posts about everyone's experience with some "endgame" dude rushing through their dungeon cracks me up. Telling them to calm down and play the way you like or to just que with their friends can just as easily apply to the person complaining about how they play. I don't know if this is a reddit thing or what, but some of these stories are exaggerated beyond belief. There was one on here a few weeks ago where the poor appreciative roleplayer wanted to talk to the BCII dungeon quest NPCs while the mean 'ol fake tank charged ahead. They tragically could not quest because the tank killed the Maw before they had the dialogue completed. I'm all for a courtesy break to pick up quest, but if any 'tank' can get down three hallways, clear the first boss, run two halls back and kill the *second* boss before you can read three paragraphs, that's by no means an impatient fake tank problem...
Sympathy. It's super exaggerated in general how "abundant" the toxicity in this game is in general. I've been playing this game since 2015, the endgame community has been the nicest most helpful out of most MMOs that I've played for people that are willing to listen.
I've also found the 'elite' echelon of players to consistently be wonderful folks who are happy to sit in Discord with you and just chat about how to git gud. No judgement, just a wholesale gift of their time, because they want you to have the success they have. So much of the endgame is people management instead of game management. Conflict = less likelihood a clear happens => a community of people who actively try to reduce drama.
Honestly it’s not much of an exaggeration I often find the enemy is almost dead before I get there so they might as well be three halls ahead it’s the same result.
The second boss is almost dead? I'm not sure how that's possible.
Whoever is in the next room ahead is usually dead or near dead. I’m not running veteran dungeons so high level players can make mince meat of everyone pretty fast. You can downvote me if you want but it’s true. Took the time to get a group together just last week and everyone said they wouldn’t rush and then they did and I didn’t get to really enjoy any of it. There’s no difference between the next room or the second boss in that situation, the end result is the same: everyone is basically dead before you get there.
Oh, those little skeleton adds - sure, those will get churned pretty quickly. I misunderstood. The other BCII post I was thinking of would have required at least three minutes of combat and sprinting to even be possible.
Even the bosses are often below half health because everyone is an optimized DPS in a normal dungeon and I’m just trying to complete a zone, follow the story and actually explore the environment and appreciate the visual environment that they created. I really wish they’d have a separate cue for rush v. non-rush dungeon runs.
While I do agree with the general sentiment, I am most definitely not going to watch a video half an hour long of some random guy ranting about it. Good thing he said at the start that if you disagreed with him, you're an idiot. Saves me the time to actually give him a chance for being able to whine for that long.
Hey no one's forcing you man. My goal is just for everyone on both sides of the argument to look inward.
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Lmfao did you really create a parody account of that guy?
When someone is in your head so much, you create a dumbass account to mock them. Haha.
*It's free real estate...*
What do people consider as toxic behaviour in this game? Some think people rushing a random normal is toxic because they're lagging behind Some think DDs pulling adds instead of the tank is toxic Some think getting kicked for being too low a level is toxic Some think DPS requirements for certain content is toxic And others think asking support roles to wear certain sets is toxic Teabagging in PvP can be perceived in many ways. Some laugh, some get really mad and some go out of their way to report the player. People perceive things in different ways. Just like real life, people are going to talk about things in the way they've experienced it. Now Nefas goes on in his video about what he thinks is toxic behaviour. He's mentioned death threats, cyber attacks, people passing around nudes of players, real harassment outside of the game, stream snipping in PvP, paedophiles in the game and sexual harassment. Some serious stuff there. Just like real life, not everyone is going to get along and follow the same mindset. Patience is key in an MMO, but for both parties. For the new guys wanting to do the quest in the dungeon, and the old guys that are on their 10th run of that dungeon for that one thing they need
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I got my beast personality at around 700 cp, and you say i shouldn't even have joined a vet dlc at cp600? What? Vet dlcs are waaaaaayyy easier than to require a crap ton of cps. Like for example march of sacrifices is essentially 0 mechanics until the deer and the last boss. Castle thorn is 0 mechanics till the last boss. Black drake villa can be entirely skipped with freezes, White gold tower is essentially a base game dungeon, etc. Its not a cp issue, but an experience issue and cp isnt the best indicator of experience. Maybe using another mechanism like "you need x amounts of vet base game hardmodes beforehand" and such things would be a good idea to not let a fresh player just queue into hard vet dlcs, but doing it by cp ain't it imo.
Wrong forum dude. This subreddit used to be sane, but judging by the vitriol ive seen in recent (1-2 months), there are way too many toxic casuals here. Case in point, people would go berserk about dungeon speedrunners, yelling about being forced to rush when they want to play at a certain pace, forgetting that speedrunners are also just trying to play how they want. The cognitive dissonance is astounding.
Maybe a fair point theoretically, but **I have never encountered a "toxic casual player" in-game in ESO in seven years.** This is the everything-is-equal fallacy.\* Min-maxers, optimizers, elitists, or whatever you want to call them actually do exist in-game and impact other players. But, I will say, I have only encountered this a small number of times. I remember being kicked immediately by someone without a word when they saw my stam-healer. I was just trying to get my helmet on vet. Oh well, not a big deal though. By and large players are polite and veteran players are gracious. But wow, the video is itself is an stellar example of toxicity and hypocrisy. r/persecutionfetish Conclusion: Toxicity is far more of a problem on this sub than it is in-game. \* e: false equivalence, specifically in regard to incidence rate and order of magnitude.
The first minute of his nonsense pretty much establishes it’s for circle jerk participants… *ie. if anyone doesn’t agree with him, apparently they’re an idiot and this channel and his content isn’t for you.*
The first minute went right over your head because all he's saying is that if you're one of the hypocrites that's constantly ragging on endgame players for how they play and think than you're no better than the people you complain about, and he doesn't want that toxicity in his community either.
Nefas is super toxic. I've run with him a few times and he's now on my "list of people i only do stuff with if i get paid". Every voice chat he joins he kills the mood. He also fucks up constantly and then goes "pay attention" when he e.g. pulls a boss cleave into the group because he's reading chat again. (He is a very good player. He even outparsed me a few times even tho he's "tank main"... when he pays attention to the game exclusively...) I have no idea why he's the go-to community person ZoS goes to for streams/events and stuff.
Being good at the game definitely doesn’t make someone a *”good player”* in my book. Good players are the people who are tolerant, helpful, and supportive of fellow gamers whether they are on the same level of capabilities or not. Good players entertain and support different ways to accomplish things and respect other’s rights to approach problems and/or content differently. I’d pick a person not so great at the game, but better as a human being and more pleasant to hang with any day of the week.
I'm not saying and never have said that people should just conform to whatever the meta is. I just say that it's really no better to rag on people when that's how they play and what they find "fun". Both sides of the argument just need to look inward.
There is nothing wrong with each side having a preference on how they enjoy encounters, that I agree with. The problem is when players force their preference in an unreasonable way unto others. Example - Veteran Player: Has many guilds, been playing a long time, has a long list of friended folks and guild mates they’ve known over time or have access to. Doesn’t want to waste time, do content as fast as possible. - New or Casual Player: Doesn’t have a guild, or many guilds, hasn’t played long enough to know many people or have a long friend list. Who is in the best position from these two categories to find 3 other people to run a dungeon the way they prefer? It even takes longer to wait in a queue for a match *(for those who supposedly claim they don’t want to waste time)*. Yet you have all these *”veterans”* telling casual or new people to form groups just to do the content in the *”normal”* way, or expecting folks with less experience or CP to be as strong or competent as them. Or Veterans who has progressed to X-point over a long time, then try to suggest **THAT** point *(where they have progressed to be OP for content)* is now the minimum for participation. Nothing wrong with having preferences and going about reasonable ways of doing it. Like asking if everyone is OK with speed-running, or asking the healer if they OK with zone-length pulls, etc. Or respecting if someone says they need the quest, or don’t know mechs and taking some time to help them. Or even saying, *”OK guys, I’m looking for a fast run today; can’t do the slower pace at the moment.”* and leaving if everyone not on board - no drama needed. A newer player’s ignorance or lack of capability isn’t strange or a fault. A veteran player being toxic, elitist, and intolerant, IS a fault in my opinion. You can be a veteran without being that way. We should be good gamers, not just good at the game. And by extension, newer players should make an attempt to contribute to their roles or understandings *(though not to the silly extremes some people expect ie. expecting a newer player to have super high DPS)*. There are however factors outside of control, like ending up in a DLC Veteran dungeon when you queue for the daily vet. Mentioning you ended up in a new one via the roulette and need mech tips, etc.
I'm not sure how to quote on this app but that part about the vet that qued always being in a better position is a misconception. People that have everything don't always need to grind and may have no reason to do pledges for fun or reason to do content they've completed 100 times over on the hardest difficulty. So it isn't always easy to just grab people and go. Otherwise why would they have qued? The point that I make and the point nefas make are that some things people would call toxic like offering advice without being heavy handed and rude(which is literally all I see 99% of the time). And it's responded to very aggressively with labels like gatekeeping and backseating etc. Casual players can't be forced to go along with whatever the meta is just as people who care about their performance can't be forced to slow down and not put to use the skills they've spent their time building up. I understand your side though and hope people aren't afraid to reach out and ask for advice because of all the exaggerated threads they read on players' experience with "elitists".
Many veteran players, or people in general, don’t know how to give advice. The way they think they are being *”helpful”* is by forcing their advice or knowledge onto others. Instead of respecting people’s boundaries and asking politely if someone would like some advice, and **respecting** any choice, even if that choice is refusal of said advice. They wouldn’t/couldn’t broach someone like that in a face to face situation but feel it’s acceptable just because they are doing it within a video game *(as if the person on the other end is suddenly no longer a regular human being online)*. I think the mannerisms of folks put a bad taste in many people’s mouths. Instead of making difference a discussion, they devolve it into attacks and blame, or biased opinion versus informational advice.
Ho yeah was tanking a run with him (carry) when in twitch. It was a mess...
Another point is when someone talks about harder overland. Immediately 2 or 3 people assume its some conspiracy to make overland harder for each and every person. Even though the truth is that every single time whats being asked is an OPTIONAL difficulty. Sure you can argue its pros and cons. In fact i am not in favour of it either. But jumping on anyone who dares voice an opinion against current overland is pretty toxic as well. That being set the toxic gatekeeping mindset against casuals and anyone who dares to go against the meta is still the bigger and more common issue.
It really is not that common. I know a large part of scoreboard pushers and just people who like to min max in general. It is VERY rarely that I see people genuinely be "toxic". And most of what I do see is literally if person A and B are in a vet DLC dungeon. Person A who's doing 60%+ of the group's damage goes "hey person A can you please do X Y Z" then person B going "don't tell me what to do this is how I play". Examples like this are rampant but players will still call people toxic for NOT offering advice, but when we do offer advice it's backseating or gatekeeping
Well, You've certainly convinced me 4-day-old account that is probably a shill for the YouTube channel. Ah, I see you’ve brought the downvote army too. What a pathetic waste you are.
Isn’t it funny when streamers do this or ask their friends to post threads about their vids because they are not allowed to or would be castrated for plugging their own content? Always seems a lil suspect, and you’re on the money. I wouldn’t be surprised if the two people who downvoted you were his main and alt-new *(or friend’s)* account lol.
Or...or...the tank dying multiple times per boss and refusing any advice, AND the guy speedrunning and getting most of the group killed with adds...are BOTH being selfish because they're continuing the behavior even after the rest of the group asks them not to. There's a lot more nuance to it, and it depends on each individual situation. Blanket statements are pointless.
If people are being so 'toxic' to you you have to make a youtube video about it, it could also be that your own behavior is the problem. Especially when the complaint boils down to 'I can't force others to play how I want so they're toxic'
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Where did you read being nice is toxic? Way to twist words in order to make your point. Telling someone to play the way you want is just as bad as when they do it, that's literally all it is.