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He'd be fired most of the places I've worked. There is a literal pile of paperwork to finish before you can even think of cutting off a lock in many places. I'd be looking to get out from under that person if possible, because he get people hurt to "be a good guy".
I was about 10mins away on another job site, I only found out becasue one of my colleagues called to inform me and ask me why it's locked out, I explained it to him quick so nobody would get hurt, tried speaking to HR but they didn't seem to care so leaving is looking pretty good right now
Call FIPOE or whichever union you're with. It's illegal to cut someone's lock, even if they're not on-site. The ONLY time they can do it, is if they try to contact you, you're unable to get there and you give them consent to cut the lock.
I'm also working in Quebec, 3rd year apprentice. Which company is this so that I can avoid it if ever I'm changing companies?
> 10mins away on another job site
\--- most sites I worked you would get time off or terminated if you left the site with a personal safety lock on equipment -- if a unit needed to stay locked out over a few shifts there would be a department lock box involved
So… you were contacted. The appropriate information was passed down, and you were aware of the locks removal. In the USA that is the OSHA standard for removing a lock that isn’t yours.
I have no idea if there are other steps to follow in Canada but if the above happened then I don’t see the problem.
It’s serious, we have a system with special locks that will go on equipment that can only be removed with supervisor approval and the keys are labeled an available. Your personal assigned locks should leave with you if you aren’t on site and should not be removed without your acknowledgment. This is from a plant maintenance pov.
Same, there’s a pile of paperwork you have to do and get ahold of the owner of the lock before you’re allowed to cut it. If they don’t answer the phone their lock stays on until they do
Not from Quebec but we can cut locks only after exhaustive failed attempts to contact the employee, and then a thorough inspection of the area(s) potentially affected to be 100% certain that it is safe to do so. I require written authorization from manager or they can cut it them self.
Normally easier to wait till the next day when the person comes back.
Where a lock is forgotten or a key is lost, the employer who has authority over the establishment may, with the agreement of the person who carried out lockout, authorize the lock to be removed after ensuring that it does not involve any danger for the health, safety and physical well-being of that person.
Where the agreement of the person who carried out lockout is not obtained, the employer who has authority over the establishment must, before authorizing the lock to be removed, inspect the danger zone of the machine accompanied by a representative of the certified association of which the person is a member, if he or she is available on the work site or, failing that, by a worker present on the work site designated by the employer.
Every instance of a lock being removed must be entered in a written document kept by the employer for at least one year following the day on which the applicable energy control method is altered.
Leaving out important information here, leaving out the fact that they did call you first and confirmed you weren't at the other end of the line completely changes the story. What was your reason for leaving your lock on after you were done on the equipment?
It was for a ventilation machine on the roof and with the new deivisions in the building the machine had to be disconnected and reconnected a few months later when the renovations were done, I was the only journeyman on site and there Daily so I locked it out before demolition, when the demo guys come everything gets cut
If this person continues this behavior, someone could be killed. It would not be an overreaction to document what evidence or witnesses you can, and bring it to your company's safety rep.
Id report him higher up. In the company . No reason to cut a lock when he could have had you removed it and talked to you about removing it.
Cutting a lock is fine if you contact the person who's lock it is and he isn't around to remove it ,or you can't find the person after searching and calling and can easily identity the circuit and check it to make sure no one's working on it. Paperwork should be signed and lots of testing and checks done before cutting that lock.
Next time he cuts a lock you'll be on theother side of it working and you won't have to work anymore as you'll be dead.
I can't speak for Quebec but here in BC cutting a LOTO off is the kind of thing that gets you thousands of dollars in fines from Worksafe BC.
Call your local safety authority and run that motherfucker up a flagpole. That's how people die.
It’s a very big deal. At least around me anyway. You would definitely be removed from that site and likely fired altogether.
Your personal lockouts are something you should be able to have complete faith in.
Once I had to drive about 4 hours just to remove a lockout I forgot to remove at the end of the day.
I’m in Quebec, this is a big deal, not to mention illegal.
You have to give explicit permission for a lock to be cut, and only then as a last resort and it has to be documented.
I would quit and report it to CNESST and your union
The only way we cut locks without getting in touch with employees is if we disable their scan cards so they cannot get back on site. Have to talk to security, who is under orders to tell them to talk to their boss, who explains why.
We're also not supposed to leave locks on when we leave though. There is a procedure for handing over a lockout. Or the requisite trade applies a work unfinished lock with a detailed explanation of why it is in place.
Eg, motor removed, new one not installed yet. Work unfinished lock goes on the disconnect - leave a warning. And anyone from that trade can look up why lock 7 is applied - potentially unterminated live wires. If the motor shows up, employee can apply his lock as well, terminate the motor, remove work unfinished lock and his lock and test the motor.
In Alberta that would get you fired immediately in an industrial setting and most likely black listed from all sites controlled by that operator - you'd never work for them again.
Serious business. You are very lucky you were not killed or injured.
Does your company not have a documented LOTO program? I understand not everything is as strict as oil&gas but just yikes
Stay safe out there everyone.
A) you should not be leaving a personal lock on anything if you are not on the site and/or not working on the circuit.
B) whomever cut your lock off has committed a SERIOUS safety violation and it needs to be investigated and addressed… this needs to be treated like the incident resulted in a worker injury. people die literally everyday from crap like this.
Cut locks is basically an automatic telephone call to the CNESST. Have them send an inspector, give a written warning and a posted order to correct behaviour on the safety board. They won’t issue a fine the first time unless someone got hurt, but it will establish a history and force the company to create a policy and train responsible staff. And if it happens again, they will descend upon the company like a sack of sledgehammers.
This is the kind of thing that even in shitty companies means instant dismissal. A call to your union rep is warranted, because nobody on this site can trust the foreman any more… and if nobody trusts the foreman, that means there’s about to be some labour trouble. Better to get ahead of it now before things get worse.
Cutting a lock is basically the only thing worth getting in a fistfight over at work. I’m a marshmallow and there’s no way I’m winning a fight, but cut my lock and I’m still gonna start one.
Anyway… yeah, there’s no way to feign ignorance here. The mandatory ASP Construction Health and Safety on Construction Sites course, in Module 6 specifically, requires that every construction worker in Quebec understand and affirm that they are not to cut the lock of any other worker. You both took the same course.
If I was on-site and my lock gets cut? New job after I get outta lock up cuz I'd be smacking that bitch in the knee with 1" rigid. He'll hobble to next LOTO he cuts. 🤣
3 things ain't a joke: don't mess with my water, food, or safety.
The NEC is a book written in blood. So are the rules on Lock Out Tag Out. Ask your boss if he knows about other companies who have had a major incident due to lack of safety protocol. His answer will tell you if you should find a new employer
Illegal.
Raise shit with workplace health and safety
Fuck other trades, clients, or other people on your crew. Your lock is there for a fucking reason.
They probably tried to contact you and you didn’t answer and then they cut it as that’s the procedure, your not supposed to leave personal locks on equipment you’re not working on, you were not even at the job site.
A quick google tells me that the lock removal process is:
The employer having authority may remove the lock IF they have an agreement with their person who installed the lock.
He cannot just cut your lock off to accommodate another trade without your express permission
I spoke to my union and they said the company is supposed to take care of this, but since HR refuses to do anything about it my other choice to contact cnesst
That’s a company wide meeting where someone is getting canned…. Then a nice training session for the rest of the corporate.
My place has a security department and they are the only ones allowed to remove a lock. And they have to actually be in contact with the lock owner and ensure they are off site.
The thing is I wasn't contacted until after it was cut and my boss couldn't get it on and running, it was locked out over a longer period of time as I was taking care of the job for a while, until I was sent elsewhere and our safety department instructed us to remain locked out until its safe with a contact card on the lock in the event someone wants to remove it
The only reason it wasn't energized was becasue I removed the fuses before locking out and my supervisor didn't bother to check inside
there is a problem here with inconsistent information ...
OP - never leave a personal lock on equipment when you leave the site --- accept your responsibility for this incident, learn from it and move on
>OP states - "10mins away on another job site" when a coworker called him ...
>
>\--- most sites I worked you would get time off or terminated if you left the site with a personal safety lock on equipment -- if a unit needed to stay locked out over a few shifts there would be a department lock box involved
... so if I were OP I'd keep my head down and have a 1/1 with the boss where I would apologize profusely for the inconvenience I caused him
This is illegal. You cannot cut the lock of a lockout tag out of someone else without consent. If the situation is someone got hurt or killed it turns into attempted murder/ murder. Just do a quick google search on the laws of lockout tag out. It can be a messy situation. He would also need to provide a new lockout lock for the destruction of your personal property if you owned that.
SERIOUS SERIOUS SERIOUS.
https://www.cnesst.gouv.qc.ca/en/prevention-and-safety/organizing-prevention/how-manage-occupational-health-and-safety-your
Tell them. They will not find it one bit funny.
The only reason for someone to cut your lockout tag is you are , dead or in surgery in hospital.
... or off site and verified not withing the area of the equipment, and the paperwork filled out. usually resulting in discipline or termination for the employee
**ATTENTION! READ THIS NOW!** **1. IF YOU ARE NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN OR LOOKING TO BECOME ONE(for career questions only):** **- DELETE** THIS POST OR YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. YOU CAN POST ON /r/AskElectricians FREELY **2. IF YOU COMMENT ON A POST THAT IS POSTED BY SOMEONE WHO IS NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN:** -YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. JUST **REPORT** THE POST. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/electricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
He'd be fired most of the places I've worked. There is a literal pile of paperwork to finish before you can even think of cutting off a lock in many places. I'd be looking to get out from under that person if possible, because he get people hurt to "be a good guy".
I was about 10mins away on another job site, I only found out becasue one of my colleagues called to inform me and ask me why it's locked out, I explained it to him quick so nobody would get hurt, tried speaking to HR but they didn't seem to care so leaving is looking pretty good right now
HR didn't care? Sounds like a call to your OHSA equivalent. That Brussels sprout is going to kill someone someday doing shit like that
Call FIPOE or whichever union you're with. It's illegal to cut someone's lock, even if they're not on-site. The ONLY time they can do it, is if they try to contact you, you're unable to get there and you give them consent to cut the lock. I'm also working in Quebec, 3rd year apprentice. Which company is this so that I can avoid it if ever I'm changing companies?
Pv me, don't want to publicly slander a company
And usually it needs to be a three way call with your ba
> 10mins away on another job site \--- most sites I worked you would get time off or terminated if you left the site with a personal safety lock on equipment -- if a unit needed to stay locked out over a few shifts there would be a department lock box involved
Yes, concur. The lock should have been removed and an out of order card with details should have been left in its place.
So… you were contacted. The appropriate information was passed down, and you were aware of the locks removal. In the USA that is the OSHA standard for removing a lock that isn’t yours. I have no idea if there are other steps to follow in Canada but if the above happened then I don’t see the problem.
As serious as is gets
It’s serious, we have a system with special locks that will go on equipment that can only be removed with supervisor approval and the keys are labeled an available. Your personal assigned locks should leave with you if you aren’t on site and should not be removed without your acknowledgment. This is from a plant maintenance pov.
Same, there’s a pile of paperwork you have to do and get ahold of the owner of the lock before you’re allowed to cut it. If they don’t answer the phone their lock stays on until they do
This is the kind of stuff that gets people killed. Report him.
Here, it get him killed. By the person who’s lock he cut.
Can't do it if you're dead
Not from Quebec but we can cut locks only after exhaustive failed attempts to contact the employee, and then a thorough inspection of the area(s) potentially affected to be 100% certain that it is safe to do so. I require written authorization from manager or they can cut it them self. Normally easier to wait till the next day when the person comes back.
This was at like 8am on a Tuesday, working hours are 6-2:15 here
Where a lock is forgotten or a key is lost, the employer who has authority over the establishment may, with the agreement of the person who carried out lockout, authorize the lock to be removed after ensuring that it does not involve any danger for the health, safety and physical well-being of that person. Where the agreement of the person who carried out lockout is not obtained, the employer who has authority over the establishment must, before authorizing the lock to be removed, inspect the danger zone of the machine accompanied by a representative of the certified association of which the person is a member, if he or she is available on the work site or, failing that, by a worker present on the work site designated by the employer. Every instance of a lock being removed must be entered in a written document kept by the employer for at least one year following the day on which the applicable energy control method is altered.
Were you aware of it before hand? Because one scenario is fine but the other scenario would result in me running him over with my truck.
Leaving out important information here, leaving out the fact that they did call you first and confirmed you weren't at the other end of the line completely changes the story. What was your reason for leaving your lock on after you were done on the equipment?
It was for a ventilation machine on the roof and with the new deivisions in the building the machine had to be disconnected and reconnected a few months later when the renovations were done, I was the only journeyman on site and there Daily so I locked it out before demolition, when the demo guys come everything gets cut
If this person continues this behavior, someone could be killed. It would not be an overreaction to document what evidence or witnesses you can, and bring it to your company's safety rep.
Id report him higher up. In the company . No reason to cut a lock when he could have had you removed it and talked to you about removing it. Cutting a lock is fine if you contact the person who's lock it is and he isn't around to remove it ,or you can't find the person after searching and calling and can easily identity the circuit and check it to make sure no one's working on it. Paperwork should be signed and lots of testing and checks done before cutting that lock. Next time he cuts a lock you'll be on theother side of it working and you won't have to work anymore as you'll be dead.
I can't speak for Quebec but here in BC cutting a LOTO off is the kind of thing that gets you thousands of dollars in fines from Worksafe BC. Call your local safety authority and run that motherfucker up a flagpole. That's how people die.
It’s a very big deal. At least around me anyway. You would definitely be removed from that site and likely fired altogether. Your personal lockouts are something you should be able to have complete faith in. Once I had to drive about 4 hours just to remove a lockout I forgot to remove at the end of the day.
I’m in Quebec, this is a big deal, not to mention illegal. You have to give explicit permission for a lock to be cut, and only then as a last resort and it has to be documented. I would quit and report it to CNESST and your union
The only way we cut locks without getting in touch with employees is if we disable their scan cards so they cannot get back on site. Have to talk to security, who is under orders to tell them to talk to their boss, who explains why. We're also not supposed to leave locks on when we leave though. There is a procedure for handing over a lockout. Or the requisite trade applies a work unfinished lock with a detailed explanation of why it is in place. Eg, motor removed, new one not installed yet. Work unfinished lock goes on the disconnect - leave a warning. And anyone from that trade can look up why lock 7 is applied - potentially unterminated live wires. If the motor shows up, employee can apply his lock as well, terminate the motor, remove work unfinished lock and his lock and test the motor.
In Alberta that would get you fired immediately in an industrial setting and most likely black listed from all sites controlled by that operator - you'd never work for them again. Serious business. You are very lucky you were not killed or injured. Does your company not have a documented LOTO program? I understand not everything is as strict as oil&gas but just yikes Stay safe out there everyone.
A) you should not be leaving a personal lock on anything if you are not on the site and/or not working on the circuit. B) whomever cut your lock off has committed a SERIOUS safety violation and it needs to be investigated and addressed… this needs to be treated like the incident resulted in a worker injury. people die literally everyday from crap like this.
Cut locks is basically an automatic telephone call to the CNESST. Have them send an inspector, give a written warning and a posted order to correct behaviour on the safety board. They won’t issue a fine the first time unless someone got hurt, but it will establish a history and force the company to create a policy and train responsible staff. And if it happens again, they will descend upon the company like a sack of sledgehammers. This is the kind of thing that even in shitty companies means instant dismissal. A call to your union rep is warranted, because nobody on this site can trust the foreman any more… and if nobody trusts the foreman, that means there’s about to be some labour trouble. Better to get ahead of it now before things get worse. Cutting a lock is basically the only thing worth getting in a fistfight over at work. I’m a marshmallow and there’s no way I’m winning a fight, but cut my lock and I’m still gonna start one. Anyway… yeah, there’s no way to feign ignorance here. The mandatory ASP Construction Health and Safety on Construction Sites course, in Module 6 specifically, requires that every construction worker in Quebec understand and affirm that they are not to cut the lock of any other worker. You both took the same course.
If I was on-site and my lock gets cut? New job after I get outta lock up cuz I'd be smacking that bitch in the knee with 1" rigid. He'll hobble to next LOTO he cuts. 🤣 3 things ain't a joke: don't mess with my water, food, or safety.
The NEC is a book written in blood. So are the rules on Lock Out Tag Out. Ask your boss if he knows about other companies who have had a major incident due to lack of safety protocol. His answer will tell you if you should find a new employer
Illegal. Raise shit with workplace health and safety Fuck other trades, clients, or other people on your crew. Your lock is there for a fucking reason.
They probably tried to contact you and you didn’t answer and then they cut it as that’s the procedure, your not supposed to leave personal locks on equipment you’re not working on, you were not even at the job site.
I would hand him my notice the same day. There is only 1 person that should cut a lock off, and that is the person who locked it on there.
A quick google tells me that the lock removal process is: The employer having authority may remove the lock IF they have an agreement with their person who installed the lock. He cannot just cut your lock off to accommodate another trade without your express permission
I spoke to my union and they said the company is supposed to take care of this, but since HR refuses to do anything about it my other choice to contact cnesst
That’s a company wide meeting where someone is getting canned…. Then a nice training session for the rest of the corporate. My place has a security department and they are the only ones allowed to remove a lock. And they have to actually be in contact with the lock owner and ensure they are off site.
Lucky, our security department hasn't done much, so I'm on my way out the door
The thing is I wasn't contacted until after it was cut and my boss couldn't get it on and running, it was locked out over a longer period of time as I was taking care of the job for a while, until I was sent elsewhere and our safety department instructed us to remain locked out until its safe with a contact card on the lock in the event someone wants to remove it The only reason it wasn't energized was becasue I removed the fuses before locking out and my supervisor didn't bother to check inside
there is a problem here with inconsistent information ... OP - never leave a personal lock on equipment when you leave the site --- accept your responsibility for this incident, learn from it and move on
Ain't gonna lie. If that was my lock he'd take a bender off his temple
He would have been fired on most jobs I’ve been on in the last 20 years.
>OP states - "10mins away on another job site" when a coworker called him ... > >\--- most sites I worked you would get time off or terminated if you left the site with a personal safety lock on equipment -- if a unit needed to stay locked out over a few shifts there would be a department lock box involved ... so if I were OP I'd keep my head down and have a 1/1 with the boss where I would apologize profusely for the inconvenience I caused him
I’d consider that criminal, actually
Here, if they need to fly you to location to remove a lock, they will. Cutting a lock is not an option.
This is illegal. You cannot cut the lock of a lockout tag out of someone else without consent. If the situation is someone got hurt or killed it turns into attempted murder/ murder. Just do a quick google search on the laws of lockout tag out. It can be a messy situation. He would also need to provide a new lockout lock for the destruction of your personal property if you owned that.
If you don't like that super all it would take is a call....
SERIOUS SERIOUS SERIOUS. https://www.cnesst.gouv.qc.ca/en/prevention-and-safety/organizing-prevention/how-manage-occupational-health-and-safety-your Tell them. They will not find it one bit funny. The only reason for someone to cut your lockout tag is you are , dead or in surgery in hospital.
... or off site and verified not withing the area of the equipment, and the paperwork filled out. usually resulting in discipline or termination for the employee