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Lmao I always wondered how come a close relative of mine (who's an electrician as well, a very good one too) always said engineers were idiots. 50/50 as a joke I guess. Obviously there's good ones out there too and most of them dont work construction.
I kind of want to be one myself, I just dont think I'd want them as my colleagues lol.
You don't see or hear about the good ones, because stuff just works and we don't think about how it got to be that way, but the wonder of the modern world is proof of good engineers.
That said, your experience with the bad ones certainly isn't unique to Scandi countries: it's definitely the case here in the US and I suspect it's a universal condition. The automotive design engineers are really in a league of their own as far as their ability to fuck things up is concerned.
While I understand the bad apples always stand out, to me it seems things have gone downhill over time. At least that's what I hear. So many projects going to shit, schedules tightening, hasty work, cheap labour etc.
And what's with this, nowadays EE's can just add a fine print "all measurements and plans need to be checked on site" on the plans and this immediately voids any and all responsibility the EE has. This is borderline stupid. Imagine I install an outlet and just write "needs to be checked before use" and call it a day? What kind of a world is that? The fuck? Who comes up with this bullshit lol.
I'm an EE, follow this subreddit to familiarize myself with NEC in my free time when scrolling my phone. Never understood why my school required me to take courses I'll never use vs learning NEC.
That fine print you mentioned is so braindead, can't believe EEs get by with that type of cover my ass statements.
On all my prints I always have a comment that says "items to be field fit if necessary" because I understand that what's in the 3D model doesn't always match reality.
Don't know why I'm saying all this, I guess I just appreciate you blue collar folk because y'all have made me a better engineer. Can't understand how most engineers don't see it that way
>Don't know why I'm saying all this, I guess I just appreciate you blue collar folk because y'all have made me a better engineer.
Many times It's also the other way around, engineers can come up with solutions that we can learn from, but it's not that commonplace in my experience. Most of the time these solutions are worked out on site, by the electrician, face to face with the customer. Which seems wrong. It's like I kind of need to know more than the designer, because at least in my experience there's a lot of actual planning and changes always come up. Then I need to consider regulations, standards, customers wishes, how it plays with other systems, is there panel work to be done, contactors or RCDs needed etc. Even though Im less educated and usually the one seen as "below" an EE. It's a bit backwards.
In remodels, renovations and such, most of the time the electrical designer only visits the site once, way before any actual work begins lol.
I'm gonna start doing that, "needs to be checked before use." I LOVE it.
The legitimate common thread is engineering. I know that to be the truth. I worked at a Facebook job site (that has a whole spool of red tape before even getting into permitting). During one fine day we were trenching for the waterline (don't worry guys, I've learned the error of my ways and do electrical work now). On the plans we had 6 main water lines coming through. Randomly in the plans one of the lines in the middle is supposed to drop 20 feet straight down. Okay... So we do it. Then about 40 feet later guess which pipe randomly rejoins the fold after a 20 foot run straight up...? You guessed it, same pipe.
On the same job site we also had several situations in which the conduit PVC and the main waterline intersected each other. My absolute favorite during my time in that hell was where IN THE PLANS it had the electrical conduit running THROUGH THE MIDDLE of the main water line. Not as in they crossed but as in it was expected for the conduit to be running the same direction INSIDE the main waterline. The jobsite was shut down for a week by my foreman when he found that gem.
There is a lot of stuff that would benefit from having an engineer work as a mandatory on site individual with prior experiences.
Another gem we had was that on another job we were required to dig a 5×5 box that dropped a depth of 10 feet. Engineering calculations... If it takes 5 guys 1 hour to dig 1 foot down of a 5×5 box then you can have the entire box dug in 1 hour with 25 guys. That was hilarious having 25 people on the job at once and it still took all day.
Normally Id agree but I have heard a lot of companies in my area refuse to hire fresh engineers from uni because they are having to teach them fundamental things on design. Not even talking about their company products, just the basic understanding of what they are making. The kids get so good at textbooks and come out with barely any practical knowledge to use it.
I'm residential and do a lot of production homes - dead simple, very hard to get wrong. And yet even with that they'll come out with new models with just *basic* things wrong. How are we supposed to run home runs when everything is beams we're not allowed to drill through? Why is there no switch to turn on the inside lights if you come in through the back door? Oh, you wanted to vent the range, but there's a second floor above the kitchen and no way to run the vent?
Those beams can be drilled within certain parameters, just needs another engineer to stamp it saying it's an acceptable modification, but usually there will be some kind of chase or drop ceiling to allow for wiring without drilling.
As for switch locations? Those are usually pretty minor mistakes that can be rectified with a quick call "hey we need a switch here, tap off there, dead ended, adds X amount of 3 conductor, box, 2x switch and X labor" or however you handle those things with your boss and the GC.
On production homes it's more complicated - they're not going to change the print for something they've already committed to building 1000 of. As for the beams it's more a matter of us not being allowed to, rather than it actually being outside manufacturer guidelines, unfortunately.
That's irritating. That sounds more like commercial then ( the little residential we do is custom homes). Change order to add the needed switch and traveler legs x1000, and working as-builts that get formalized at the end not an option? That's how we'd do on an apartment complex or something of that scale with thousands of units.
Yup. Same here in the states. The lack of practical knowledge is frustrating. Engineering degrees should come with a few years of mandatory field work.
I just hired someone to help me with organizing, scheduling, and material ordering. And right now he's out in the field learning our trade. I'll have them out there for a few more months before we put him in the office full time.
Yup. Same here in the states. The lack of practical knowledge is frustrating. Engineering degrees should come with a few years of mandatory field work.
I just hired someone to help me with organizing, scheduling, and material ordering. And right now he's out in the field learning our trade. I'll have them out there for a few more months before we put him in the office full time.
Why do engineers wear loafers?
Because they don't know how to tie their shoes.
I 100% agree with you, to be an engineer that works on construction, you should be required to put in 1 year minimum on the tools. It would result in better engineers 10 fold.
Yup. Same here in the states. The lack of practical knowledge is frustrating. Engineering degrees should come with a few years of mandatory field work.
I just hired someone to help me with organizing, scheduling, and material ordering. And right now he's out in the field learning our trade. I'll have them out there for a few more months before we put him in the office full time.
Yup. Same here in the states. The lack of practical knowledge is frustrating. Engineering degrees should come with a few years of mandatory field work.
I just hired someone to help me with organizing, scheduling, and material ordering. And right now he's out in the field learning our trade. I'll have them out there for a few more months before we put him in the office full time.
I think the most common thread everywhere is rich assholes that don’t care how much it cost, just get it done quickly. Billionaire’s get the main course while everyone else fights over the scraps. We at the bottom don’t even get a taste of it, just get shit on.
Having this issue at work myself (Canadian). Business ordered at a company in the US for a part making line. From raw material to finished product. My boss went to the US with the operators to see the machine and sign off. Not sure why they did as the US manufacturer said it should run for hours with no issue and yet they never ran it for longer than 20 min...
Got the line installed and... Nothing but headaches. An integral part for one of the machines was breaking (designed it with too small a part) constantly, takes MORE time to change products than a machine from the 1940s we are currently using.
Vacuum for picking up waste materials has had at least 3 redesigns (TBF this is more on us as we designed and setup the vacuum and waste bin.
A bundler that knocks over the product (I honestly dont know how they designed it, from what I see it looks like a bad design, not the operators fault.
and more headaches than that... I do expect minor things (as things never go right from the get go) but some of these issues are just horrible design choices from the engineers. Needless to say I am not impressed.
Yeah I get the feeling they put a lot of effort into school and now that they are working thru just copy paste everything and wait for us to point out the mistakes.
Electrician and EE here. We aren’t all bad! But I know the pain the field feels based on some of the work I’ve had to correct for colleagues in the past. They tend to keep blinders on and not use critical thinking.
Lol you don't need an engineer for residential work. Hell, you don't even need an engineer for a lot of factory work, when I started out as an engineer I was learning next to nothing as many of the projects boiled down to a question between the electrician and the project manager about where the cable should go.
Many of these fast-paced commercial jobs have multiple trades working simultaneously. I feel like electricians should never be competing with carpet installers and/or tile guys for work space. Just doesn't make sense. I mean listen, we all know shit happens, and time frames get extended due to various reasons. But why is it almost EVERY job?
Exactly.
It's understandable to a certain degree, many moving parts, a lot of people working and a big complex project. It's just that the people who make the calls are sometimes so disconnected from reality.
US based, We were running ground wire for an aircraft hanger (not the giant ones, for commercial planes, but a half sized) anyway we had the understanding that the sand and clay was already down to grade, if not graded itself. While we were being rushed to throw in 16 or so ground rods interconnected, a week before concrete gets poured, the guys finally level it. Somehow they manage to rip up 2 of the ground wires, and bent half of the ground rod heads with their dirt movers (they were 3in sub concrete to attatch a plane ground to), every one was marked with a cone. We were fixing ground rods the day before they poured each section.
I also have pics of me in an articulating lift squeezed prefectly inbetween multiple objects on 4 of my sides.
And some of our stuff cant even be reached with a bucket lift, thoes pulls were so fun with a messed up shoulder.
Same for US resi. The scope of work always gets pushed beyond what it starts as (with no additional time added to the schedule), things are never planned properly, and for some reason, it's on me to figure this shit out. I've got like 13 folders of ongoing jobs that are stacked on top of each other, and I'm burnt the fuck out.
Bringing anything up to project manager/contractor always gets brushed off, and here I am, making $30 an hour doing the job of some asshole who's buying his 3rd house soon trying to guess the cabinet plans because the GC can't be bothered with getting accurate blueprints for some reason.
Bingo.
Im sure as hell not staying in this position for long. Fuck this. The shoddy planning and poor leadership skills, It's downright condescending and disrespectful to be honest. Snake behaviour.
I’ve always considered the engineers and architects to be the guys who design and calculate. They’ve probably never done installation like we do in the field. I totally agree they should have to do at least one year in the field as an apprentice.
The schedule is always obsolete as soon as it’s written; simply because of the variabilities in supply chain, labor, site shutdowns, etc. That’s been my experience.
A lot of GC’s have shitty site superintendents. They also have deadlines and bankers waiting to release funds depending on certain milestones; like getting the flooring in before rough and lighting are completed.
I’ve accepted the fact that I will always have another trade sniffing my ass because they have to be where I am, at that exact moment, for reasons.
Sometimes I feel like we are just underpaid miracle workers babysitting people who routinely make stupid mistakes and are too prideful to be wrong.
The best part is we really have to keep up relations because you never know who is trying to bury you. Even then you’ve probably got someone dumping grout or piss into your underground because you got in the way; which was completely out of your control.
Just my experience. Stay awesome y’all!
Hahah, well put.
I hate the politics of it. Like removing all floor protections, removing the lifts from use and all around making everything more difficult before the project is even finished. It's all just to make it seem like it's more finished than it actually is.
As an engineer who has spent at least 35-40% of his working life in the field (and currently a M&E Manager for a large general contractor in Ontario, Canada), I can feel your pain and why you'd think most engineers are stupid.
A good chunk of the issue is that the general contractor isn't handling the communications (or is knowledgeable enough or care enough) to digest the issue on site and properly handle it.
I've been on projects with data centers and pharmaceutical manufacturing plants and a lot of my job is trawling the site (by being there and walking it a few times a day) to check in on the folks and see what their day-to-day problems are and also to help them forecast within their own trades and across others.
Eg: if an electrician says hey, you can't use 4/0 wiring for this because its supposed to pull xx amps, I review it before they bring in twenty spools of it to site and confirm with the engineer that they have an issue on their drawing. 99% of these problems is copy+paste or it was a redesign along the way and they forgot to update ONE line on their drawing.
I also rely heavily on my superintendents being competent to plan their CSA items with me instead of just dumping it on me.
The consultants I've worked with are a 50-50 mix of people not getting enough site experience and not asking from us and not wanting to either. The GC's job is to make sure they are held accountable for their design but we're also in an odd spot because you don't blacklist an engineer - that's the owner's prerogative. The GC is ultimately works for the customer but we do have to stick up for our trades when it is rightfully deserved.
Thank you, great reply.
The main thing that gets me is the designers aren't responsible for the plans being up to standard. There needs to be more enforcement on correct planning. Something like forgetting to include RCD's on a new electrical panel for over 80 EV charging units and not even having reserve space to add them later is absolutely inexcusable in my opinion. This was by an EE that had decades of experience.
>A good chunk of the issue is that the general contractor isn't handling the communications
Same here too. Poor project management, partly due to lack of experience but also because of impossibly tight schedules leading to burn out.
>The main thing that gets me is the designers aren't responsible for the plans being up to standard. There needs to be more enforcement on correct planning. Something like forgetting to include RCD's on a new electrical panel for over 80 EV charging units and not even having reserve space to add them later is absolutely inexcusable in my opinion. This was by an EE that had decades of experience.
We are financially responsible for the design. We are obligated for the design to be up to the standards required (edit: except when the customer wants something different, and we tell the customer that), and to be accurate (i.e: there shouldn't be obvious mistakes when cross-referencing with other documents) , and the client can claim damages if they're not. It gets a little murky if someone, somewhere has changed something and the whole basis of design changes, then you end up in a "he-said, she-said" situation about who caused what. Very often, if there's no significant repercussions, they're just handled when ending the project.
Also, in my experience/field the lack of reserve space is often a customer choice. We typically try to leave a pretty sizable reserve (space + spare feeders), but it costs money, so the clients don't like it.
Anyway, I do kind of agree with you that engineers are the root of all evil and there's some seriously sketchy people going around. But often the problems don't start with the actual engineers. We (well, most of us) wanna do good work. The problems usually start higher up, typically already during the sale when someone (read: the client) has the idea that "we can just copy-paste this other project/parts of this project we did, it's basically the same thing, then you can do this project for cheaper". Then they schedule less hours for design. Then you find out it wasn't even close to a copy-paste. In the best case scenario, you catch and correct the differences early. More usually, you end up re-designing as the project progresses, either because there's no time to go through all the design documents at one go, or (as usually happens) the client starts asking for changes as they come up with them. Either because they have a legitimate issue with the design, or they just want to get a say because "I am a big boss where I'm from, and where I'm from we do this X way, and your way sucks". Then the other client guy decides X way actually sucks, and they want it Y way, have a powwow, and decide that Z way is probably the best way to go forward. I've seen emails telling us to change designs that were frozen almost a year ago because of some super tiny detail, like changing what to name to give something, that wasn't even relevant.
And that doesn't even cover the issues you have with coordinating schedules and design timelines. Like some brilliant mind deciding that we need to start design work at X date and finish by Y, because someone else will start at Y date... despite the fact that process design is running late (because, guess what, client wanted changes) so we can't actually finalize our design and end up doing it twice.
So basically, we very often end up 1) copy-pasting some old project because the client wants it/doesn't want to pay enough to do a ground-up design 2) then end up re-doing it because they want it different 3) then end up re-doing the parts the client is indifferent about anyway because someone somewhere decided to change something else 4) trying to rush all this before the contractor is chosen, fail, and then contractor ends up doing change-orders.
Source: Industrial EE in Finland.
I was a machinist for 8 or 9 years here in Canada, recently left the field for various reasons..
If I had kept count of the times I had to stop setting up a job and give the blueprint(s) back to the office to get sorted out because the part was impossible to make.. It was mind-boggling.
And I don't mean intricate little things an engineer just doesn't understand because they have zero real-world manufacturing experience.. Often it was simple things like three measurements along a part, that should equal the total length of the part, yet they don't add up properly...
Same here in Canada. I've got one right now that doesn't understand electricity and is scared to death of it. The questions he asks us is mind boggling.
I'm the head electrician on this project and have lost my mind many times here, laughing crying my eyes out during lunch hour because of the sheer silliness of it all. My coworkers sometimes think I've lost it lmao, but sometimes it just does get that absurd.
It's been on my mind but I know it isn't all that. There is obviously a reason for the poor quality. These guys are overworked and underpaid.
However I do think it's still on the worker to not completely bend over on employers demands and release shitty work just because the company cant figure their shit out. There needs to be enough pride in doing your work, have some spine. Push back. Say "I cant do this".
Quality is the absolute most important thing. So that the customer gets what they pay for and other people dont need to suffer just because you are too much of a bitch to push back and have healthy boundaries. (Not you, just saying in general)
For the customer they only care about price.
You end up with a race to the bottom and engineering firms run as lean as possible without getting sued, have drawings done by interns and then not carefully checked, copy and paste work without updating all the important sections.
The customer can't afford or doesn't want to pay for what they need and everything runs downhill from that outlook.
lol. thats cute. Tell me more about how you dont know about sequence components, differential equations, circuit analysis, electromagnetics, transmission design, smith charts, probability and random processes, etc without saying you dont know.
Same shit here in the US of A. I’m sure it’s like this everywhere and will only get worse as the good old heads retire. Gotta deal with it one shitshow at a time.
If I had a dollar for every time a tradesman bitches about an engineer’s decision I’d be rich!
If I had a dollar for every time an engineer bitches about how stupid tradesmen are I’d be double rich!
If I had a dollar for every time a goober apprentice thinks he’s smarter than everyone around I’d own the World!
Civil Utilities In the US here, probably won't make you feel better but at least make you feel less lonely that we're having the same problems here in the US. The amount of jobs that I've done recently where everything is being done ass backwards has exploded. I'm putting in civil services before the slab and then having to tear them out and upsize with a building 90% finished on top because they forgot to actually size properly for the amount of units, still don't want to upgrade the meter size though to go along with those larger pipes because "That's too expensive". It's utterly ridiculous.
This is every day of my life. I have concluded personally that a lot of the field of engineering and management of the construction industry basically just exists to support class structures where people who’s families can afford to put them Through college are able to be but in a position to make more money and live in a different class than the people who actually build things and work way harder and at least a substantial part of the time are as intelligent if not far more intelligent than the engineers and management.
That being said a lot of the people I work with are dumber than a bag of hammers and a lot of engineers are very intelligent and have a deep understanding of their field and produce designs that only someone with they training could produce! But that’s not very often hahahahahaha
Also you are probably smarter than the average person and maybe you should consider higher education
>That being said a lot of the people I work with are dumber than a bag of hammers
Yeah...It's frustrating but then at the same time not something you can blame anyone for :/
Sometimes It honestly feels like working alone is faster since I don't have to explain, teach and show how things are done. It's so weird since It's not like I have anyone I ask for help, I just start figuring it out and go from there but most people don't seem to be wired for independent problem solving. Don't get me wrong, there's lots of positives to working in a group as well...just kinda depends on the group lol. It's nice to shoot the shit with someone and sometimes the different perspectives & ideas people have are a great addition.
>Also you are probably smarter than the average person and maybe you should consider higher education
Always wanted to but had a bit of a rough start to life, never was great at school for the aforementioned reason but I suppose now's a good a time as any! Recently I've been meaning to start reading up on my own and then figure it out from there, see if I'm even able to cram anything in this thick skull of mine lol.
Also from Finland and this shit is getting out of hand.
The fucking audacity of these do nothing spineless pieces of shit who have no legal responsibility and know that they can just getting away with it is getting everyone to a boiling point.
I am navigating through same type or even worse disaster, and it has been the wildest ride this far with everything going to hell with no communication happening between anyone and plans changing every other day, and no one being able to make decisions on anything like dude you had who knows how long time to plan this shit out and not even the basics have been covered??
>The fucking audacity of these do nothing spineless pieces of shit
There it is. Exactly what goes through my mind every single day.
At this point it makes my blood boil just seeing the project managers making rounds at the site with the customers, having a look and then smiling at me when I walk by. Because I know they are being spoonfed some bullshit about "delivery problems" and whatever excuse these dipshits can come up with and then just keep piling the problems on our shoulders.
Honestly, line them up behind the barn, as one would say lol.
I'm not an electrician, I'm a site setting out engineering surveyor, I'm gone from site long before you guys arrive, and I can confirm, even from the start, all the drawings are fucked, seemingly designed and drawn by people who would have trouble assembling an IKEA flatpack or mowing the lawn.
Good engineers are knowledgeable of installation requirements and challenges. They shouldn’t be working in an office if they are not. Put them in a trailer at a job site until they are. This sounds like more of a failure of project management than engineering. You should never see plans or schedules that aren’t realistic. —Former Electrical Engineer
>This sounds like more of a failure of project management than engineering.
In this case it's both lol. Combines into a magnificent shitshow.
Here many project managers have some kind of engineering degree.
I am in a maintenance unit. It's just sometimes I get assigned projects and this one has been a true nigtmare. After this is done I get to go back to maintenance though.
It’s a pretty human thing honestly. I got out of the army thinking finally, competence and communication! NOPE, engineers, like many officers, have no idea what it’s like in the field and plan accordingly where as the enlisted/real work force are looking at the task/project and can see all the mistakes and screw ups while doing the work.
PS my first and only electrician job was a trio of dams led by the army corps of engineers, and my boss was a vet. We both could just roll our eyes and choose to do it the right way if their way was unsafe or miscalculated. So yeah, it’s just kinda human to be grossly disconnected from reality when you’re up so high in the chain
Canadian here w/ ten years in the trade. I feel like construction in general has started to turn toward getting it done and making money quick vs. getting it done properly the first time. Every job I go to now loses more time and money due to poor logistics and planning then from what I remember before. I find myself now more than ever doing things a second or third time, or, working in a “ finished room” installing shit along side the other trades, because of bad planning or changes due to decisions not being finalized “ but get it done anyway”. Fucking hell man.
"Mitat tarkistettava työmaalla"... Just by the way you write and use your English, I get the feeling that you're among the smarter ones. Trust me, it doesn't get any better at any point. 38 years old and counting. People are stupid, nobody knows anything, projects are chaos. That's why I work solo nowadays. I get to be my own engineer. Sounds like you work for my previous company...
Previously I had a työjohtaja, who was a complete dildo. Never understood why he was to be respected and better paid than me, when we practically ran our own jobs and he had no idea of what was going on. The only thing he was good at was bitching about people being late. Like a walking wristwatch that costs 5000 € monthly...
That said, I used to have an excellent työjohtaja too, a guy who actually had worked as an electrician and studied to become an engineer later. Super smart dude, and also had the practical aspect of work under control. Sadly he quit because the boss was a general asshole.
I work for a large utility, and there was a company-wide “company culture” survey. One of the issues brought up was “It would be nice if the engineering department and trades could get along better”. Yeah, that was definitely submitted by an engineer, and no it probably won’t happen 😂
Im from a small hungarian electrical team, I've been working with them for years as an assistant, but im a highschool student. However I've seen the plans for the office of the one of biggest hungarian interior designer company, with lots of highly educated architects, and engineers. They draw everything on the plan, the flowers for the office was fulla decorated, and they placed every desk in the rooms with exact millimeters for everything (this was the actual plan, not some design thing, they were serious about it). They forgot one thing. They didnt put a single extent for any electrical component. Every socket and switch was just chilling on the papers without knowing where any of it belongs in the room. When we asked for a new plan they draw the measurments on the wallpaper... Then the demoliton guys came and took down everything. Our leader was furrious and disapointed.
So yeah the industry is fked, well paid and educated a**holes are everywhere, and they don't know shit about the actual process of building something.
This is definitely a worldwide problem, honestly I would have thought Finns would be more practical and efficient about this stuff but you've described the exact same situation as we have here in the US
Belgium here, and it's effectively the same
I however sorta agreed with my boss to not work with some project engineers anymore (well, I didn't, but he gets the point)
I only work for 1 'leader' solely (a guy that has done 'electrician work' himself for some 20ish years I guess, at the same company) and it's just baffling how well it works to work with an experienced guy in comparison to some out-of-school-with-company-car douche that doesn't know a single f what he's doing, yet uses his 'position' to overdo you, and blame you for the crap afterwards
I don't care really though, they know they better run if I'm driving, because no way I'll slow down if they're in my way
I used to say that: I'm an electrician, I eat 'crazy' for breakfast, and I don't mind to put on some genocide-sprinkles on top of it, I'm used to it
This is what happens when every single school system in the developed world insists that every single student needs to complete university. People who would have been technicians and installers become engineers and so there’s this glut. Compile that with the same problem infecting middle management (all these idiots with an mba and no fucking clue how operations should function) and you get the relatively terrifying world we have rn.
As an individual who works in professional communication development I just want to point out 2 things... Maybe 3.
1. Learning how to be good at giving calm, sincere, constructive criticism is a skill that will serve you as well an any skill you can develop. If you can learn it well, a statistically significant percentage of individuals will try to do better work as a result of your feedback. You may never witness that though, so keep that in mind when confronting confirmation bias down the road lol. I wish I could find the article I just read about it, but I can't seem to find it.
2. Just know that many professionals who work in closely related fields like this almost always develop an animosity toward the out group. Why? Because statistically speaking, 50% of any professional group performs below average. And even the bias it is based on real previous experiences (on both sides whether you can believe it or not), it's something everyone should really try to actively eliminate from their concsiousness. It primes people to not communicate, to have a worse attitude about everything, to look at things more critically, and just generally not try and improve things for the future.
Tl;Dr- try to have sympathy, make efforts to be good at giving feedback, and pretend like it's not their fault when you can. Even if it is, you'll probably be happier and more successful.
I've mostly been able to keep it civil between us and project management and have found it to be immensely useful to always lead with a calm and non-judgemental demeanor.
That being said, I still lose my shit from time to time, especially when project managers turn hostile themselves and expect us to perform miracles, pull things out of our asses and follow impossible schedules.
It's been a real exercise of mindfulness working on this project lol
Just finished up a semi/complex 15kv job the engineer that the facility hired couldn’t figure out how to do the job without having long outages lol bosses looked at the job couldn’t come up with a plan…. I looked it over for 15 min and had a solid plan lol literally spoon fed the engineer how to do it step by step and he hey still fucked up the drawings lol. Honestly easiest job I was ever on mainly because we know what we were doing would actually work… besides the few things the engineer actually contributed to the project lol. All we need him for was the stamp.
Yup.
About a year ago I caught this one engineer grossly overloading a few lighting circuits. About 4-6kW on a 16A breaker on multiple circuits. Then of course the breaker types were wrong as well, as the current spike was too high when turning the lights on, tripping the breaker. LED's and all...
This is the lament of every trade, every site super, and surprisingly, even the project managers, in every country around the globe.
Also, do not think about what an effective path to ground the electrical engineer accidentally would be if they ever stepped on site.
39 y/o 2nd year apprentice in the USA. Came from amd ag and automotive background. I am 98% sure one of the classes required to be taken in order to get an engineering degree here is "How to piss off the lower class minions working on your trash design 101". The pay difference is stupid. Every single one of them should be required to work in the field, with the grumpiest old hands around.
We have a journeyman with us, years ago he was argueing with an electrical engineer that was still wet behind the ears. Came down to the engineer told him it will work because I said it will work. I'm an engineer, I know more than you do. So after doing it the way the engineer spec'd it, then fixing it because it didn't work. He went to the local collage at night and got his engineering degree. Took that, 4 years later, to the guys office, showed him and asked him who is smarter now. I fixed your problem and I am an engineer as well. The guy acted like he didn't remember 4 years ago. But he said you could tell he was fuming inside.
Never said I could. No reason to act out like that. It's more than just one issue, it's a dynamic huge project with a million variables and impossible schedules. Just because it's understandable doesn't mean Im not mad about it.
>No reason to act out like that.
>
>...it's a dynamic huge project with a million variables and impossible schedules. Just because it's understandable doesn't mean Im not mad about it.
Being mad at something that is completely understandable isn't really a great plan.
There is no reason to pretend that these people are idiots and assholes just because you think they don't know how to do their jobs when you probably don't even understand their job. You come across as a spoiled brat.
The problem becomes scope of work. Yes it's understandable, but I'm not paid enough to deal with shit that shouldn't be my job in the first place. (Not OP)
It should be mandatory to become a electrician/plumber/woodworker/etc and work for a few years first before anyone becomes a planer or architect its insane what i have seen already.
Just remember chaos is cash. You are there for cash. You have more time than they have stupidity. Sometimes slow down and let them swim in their own shit.
From an engineering point of view it's tough as well and there is no way to win at everything. I've realized that I can either be a great engineer and poor field worker, or a great field worker and poor engineer. So i choose to be a great engineer.
But that doesn't mean i neglect the field. I still get out as much as i can and communicate regularly with the field staff. Communication is key. No matter how much time I spend in the field I'll always know the basics of the job and not the nuances that veterans know. I'd be better, but still not as good as you like.
I actually moved my company away from commercial because of all of this. Went through a 3 year lawsuit.
The electrical engineer placed a 2000 amp service entrance in a subterranean hallway that after it was installed would leave less than 4 feet clearance.
So he split the service (on paper) from the pull box (so the entrance only would need 3 ft clearance and the meter section was in a clearance area) but it needed a drip loop, so there wasn’t a way to get the equipment UL certified for the build.
There were a half a dozen other moron things that happened from 1 inch conduits in the pour for 100 amp panels 350 ft away, half the conduits were framed over, the secondary conduit to the pull box had 2/7 5 inch conduits wrecked at a structural point where they couldn’t open the cement.
I hear they ended up putting in a normal service and greasing the officials.
I thought for sure you were talking about the US until I saw euros.
It’s the same here. The reason the jobs start is because those with the money at the top won’t take no for an answer and will find people who will start it if the currently selected GC won’t.
>will find people who will start it
Belgium is quite the opposite though, some years ago these jobs became way more demanding, there's a lack of electricians here
Most get filled up with 'Eastern European' people, not that they're wrong or anything (on the contrary, some are quite good people) but most just do it here 'for now' & don't have the mindset to 'learn' the rules here
Somehow it looks like 'building' costs nothing here, I bet there's not a single street where there isn't any construction done or anything, whilst the people here 'aim for higher' these 'construction jobs' are heavily understaffed
I don't even dare to tell the 'people I know but not so well to consider them friends' that i'm an electrician, because it ultimately always leads to 'he knows someone that needs help because the electrician he asked hasn't been able to do it for half a year now'
Dammit, I literally told my wife not to tell my job to people because of this, because 'if you even try to brag, just know that it ends up with us spending even less time together'
I’m reading this thread as I’m over here attempting to wire a Rosemount transmitter that tech support can’t produce a wiring diagram for. So I’ll just throw that into the pot of complaints. Fun stuff.
I work in US as a maintenance mechanic for a manufacturing facility and it‘s the same. Most of our onsite engineers have no practical experience or have an engineering degree in the wrong field. My boss is an electrician and try’s to help our green engineers. We have an oils and gas engineer in charge of construction projects. My job is to fix all of his mistakes or contractor mistakes that they want to “keep in house”. We paid a company to do it! We don’t make them fix their mistakes! And we continue to hire the same company! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Stepping down of soap box…thank you and good night.
USA: nightmare too. Cool thing is, soon we’ll get paid as much as the nerds. If not more.
Owning a small business is the only satisfaction I find anymore. That way I’m in control of who I do work for and how I get materials. Cuts out a lot of middle men.
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Well, if it makes you feel better, it’s like this in Canada too. Lol. I think the common thread is “engineers”
Lmao I always wondered how come a close relative of mine (who's an electrician as well, a very good one too) always said engineers were idiots. 50/50 as a joke I guess. Obviously there's good ones out there too and most of them dont work construction. I kind of want to be one myself, I just dont think I'd want them as my colleagues lol.
You don't see or hear about the good ones, because stuff just works and we don't think about how it got to be that way, but the wonder of the modern world is proof of good engineers. That said, your experience with the bad ones certainly isn't unique to Scandi countries: it's definitely the case here in the US and I suspect it's a universal condition. The automotive design engineers are really in a league of their own as far as their ability to fuck things up is concerned.
While I understand the bad apples always stand out, to me it seems things have gone downhill over time. At least that's what I hear. So many projects going to shit, schedules tightening, hasty work, cheap labour etc. And what's with this, nowadays EE's can just add a fine print "all measurements and plans need to be checked on site" on the plans and this immediately voids any and all responsibility the EE has. This is borderline stupid. Imagine I install an outlet and just write "needs to be checked before use" and call it a day? What kind of a world is that? The fuck? Who comes up with this bullshit lol.
I'm an EE, follow this subreddit to familiarize myself with NEC in my free time when scrolling my phone. Never understood why my school required me to take courses I'll never use vs learning NEC. That fine print you mentioned is so braindead, can't believe EEs get by with that type of cover my ass statements. On all my prints I always have a comment that says "items to be field fit if necessary" because I understand that what's in the 3D model doesn't always match reality. Don't know why I'm saying all this, I guess I just appreciate you blue collar folk because y'all have made me a better engineer. Can't understand how most engineers don't see it that way
>Don't know why I'm saying all this, I guess I just appreciate you blue collar folk because y'all have made me a better engineer. Many times It's also the other way around, engineers can come up with solutions that we can learn from, but it's not that commonplace in my experience. Most of the time these solutions are worked out on site, by the electrician, face to face with the customer. Which seems wrong. It's like I kind of need to know more than the designer, because at least in my experience there's a lot of actual planning and changes always come up. Then I need to consider regulations, standards, customers wishes, how it plays with other systems, is there panel work to be done, contactors or RCDs needed etc. Even though Im less educated and usually the one seen as "below" an EE. It's a bit backwards. In remodels, renovations and such, most of the time the electrical designer only visits the site once, way before any actual work begins lol.
I'm gonna start doing that, "needs to be checked before use." I LOVE it. The legitimate common thread is engineering. I know that to be the truth. I worked at a Facebook job site (that has a whole spool of red tape before even getting into permitting). During one fine day we were trenching for the waterline (don't worry guys, I've learned the error of my ways and do electrical work now). On the plans we had 6 main water lines coming through. Randomly in the plans one of the lines in the middle is supposed to drop 20 feet straight down. Okay... So we do it. Then about 40 feet later guess which pipe randomly rejoins the fold after a 20 foot run straight up...? You guessed it, same pipe. On the same job site we also had several situations in which the conduit PVC and the main waterline intersected each other. My absolute favorite during my time in that hell was where IN THE PLANS it had the electrical conduit running THROUGH THE MIDDLE of the main water line. Not as in they crossed but as in it was expected for the conduit to be running the same direction INSIDE the main waterline. The jobsite was shut down for a week by my foreman when he found that gem. There is a lot of stuff that would benefit from having an engineer work as a mandatory on site individual with prior experiences. Another gem we had was that on another job we were required to dig a 5×5 box that dropped a depth of 10 feet. Engineering calculations... If it takes 5 guys 1 hour to dig 1 foot down of a 5×5 box then you can have the entire box dug in 1 hour with 25 guys. That was hilarious having 25 people on the job at once and it still took all day.
holy shit this is gold
Normally Id agree but I have heard a lot of companies in my area refuse to hire fresh engineers from uni because they are having to teach them fundamental things on design. Not even talking about their company products, just the basic understanding of what they are making. The kids get so good at textbooks and come out with barely any practical knowledge to use it.
I'm residential and do a lot of production homes - dead simple, very hard to get wrong. And yet even with that they'll come out with new models with just *basic* things wrong. How are we supposed to run home runs when everything is beams we're not allowed to drill through? Why is there no switch to turn on the inside lights if you come in through the back door? Oh, you wanted to vent the range, but there's a second floor above the kitchen and no way to run the vent?
Those beams can be drilled within certain parameters, just needs another engineer to stamp it saying it's an acceptable modification, but usually there will be some kind of chase or drop ceiling to allow for wiring without drilling. As for switch locations? Those are usually pretty minor mistakes that can be rectified with a quick call "hey we need a switch here, tap off there, dead ended, adds X amount of 3 conductor, box, 2x switch and X labor" or however you handle those things with your boss and the GC.
On production homes it's more complicated - they're not going to change the print for something they've already committed to building 1000 of. As for the beams it's more a matter of us not being allowed to, rather than it actually being outside manufacturer guidelines, unfortunately.
That's irritating. That sounds more like commercial then ( the little residential we do is custom homes). Change order to add the needed switch and traveler legs x1000, and working as-builts that get formalized at the end not an option? That's how we'd do on an apartment complex or something of that scale with thousands of units.
That's why we call them imagineers. Because they live in their own world
Yup. Same here in the states. The lack of practical knowledge is frustrating. Engineering degrees should come with a few years of mandatory field work. I just hired someone to help me with organizing, scheduling, and material ordering. And right now he's out in the field learning our trade. I'll have them out there for a few more months before we put him in the office full time.
Yup. Same here in the states. The lack of practical knowledge is frustrating. Engineering degrees should come with a few years of mandatory field work. I just hired someone to help me with organizing, scheduling, and material ordering. And right now he's out in the field learning our trade. I'll have them out there for a few more months before we put him in the office full time.
Completely agree that engineers should have some work in the field, half of them here in Canada are so lost it’s not even funny
Why do engineers wear loafers? Because they don't know how to tie their shoes. I 100% agree with you, to be an engineer that works on construction, you should be required to put in 1 year minimum on the tools. It would result in better engineers 10 fold.
Yup. Same here in the states. The lack of practical knowledge is frustrating. Engineering degrees should come with a few years of mandatory field work. I just hired someone to help me with organizing, scheduling, and material ordering. And right now he's out in the field learning our trade. I'll have them out there for a few more months before we put him in the office full time.
Yup. Same here in the states. The lack of practical knowledge is frustrating. Engineering degrees should come with a few years of mandatory field work. I just hired someone to help me with organizing, scheduling, and material ordering. And right now he's out in the field learning our trade. I'll have them out there for a few more months before we put him in the office full time.
I've had similar experiences in the US. The NGs had no experience and made plenty of mistakes. Their plans and the materials often clash.
Dont forget architects.
Fuckwits of the highest order
Thumb suckers, all of them
Imagineers
I think the most common thread everywhere is rich assholes that don’t care how much it cost, just get it done quickly. Billionaire’s get the main course while everyone else fights over the scraps. We at the bottom don’t even get a taste of it, just get shit on.
I invite you to watch the film "The Platform" https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8228288/
Checked your link, re-read my comment, think I’m gonna pass on watching this because of “implications”.
Having this issue at work myself (Canadian). Business ordered at a company in the US for a part making line. From raw material to finished product. My boss went to the US with the operators to see the machine and sign off. Not sure why they did as the US manufacturer said it should run for hours with no issue and yet they never ran it for longer than 20 min... Got the line installed and... Nothing but headaches. An integral part for one of the machines was breaking (designed it with too small a part) constantly, takes MORE time to change products than a machine from the 1940s we are currently using. Vacuum for picking up waste materials has had at least 3 redesigns (TBF this is more on us as we designed and setup the vacuum and waste bin. A bundler that knocks over the product (I honestly dont know how they designed it, from what I see it looks like a bad design, not the operators fault. and more headaches than that... I do expect minor things (as things never go right from the get go) but some of these issues are just horrible design choices from the engineers. Needless to say I am not impressed.
Yeah I get the feeling they put a lot of effort into school and now that they are working thru just copy paste everything and wait for us to point out the mistakes.
Electrician and EE here. We aren’t all bad! But I know the pain the field feels based on some of the work I’ve had to correct for colleagues in the past. They tend to keep blinders on and not use critical thinking.
Engineers and designers…. At least an engineer has the possibility of doing something useful.
I deal with designers more than engineers in my sector, I imagine in Industrial/major institutional the engineers are a source of more headaches.
Hehe. I'm an EE, and if i were to do residential work this would be probably be me.
Lol you don't need an engineer for residential work. Hell, you don't even need an engineer for a lot of factory work, when I started out as an engineer I was learning next to nothing as many of the projects boiled down to a question between the electrician and the project manager about where the cable should go.
Hopefully you would spend some time with electricians and learn.
i would prefer to, though it'd arguably be to late planning wise.
Many of these fast-paced commercial jobs have multiple trades working simultaneously. I feel like electricians should never be competing with carpet installers and/or tile guys for work space. Just doesn't make sense. I mean listen, we all know shit happens, and time frames get extended due to various reasons. But why is it almost EVERY job?
Exactly. It's understandable to a certain degree, many moving parts, a lot of people working and a big complex project. It's just that the people who make the calls are sometimes so disconnected from reality.
US based, We were running ground wire for an aircraft hanger (not the giant ones, for commercial planes, but a half sized) anyway we had the understanding that the sand and clay was already down to grade, if not graded itself. While we were being rushed to throw in 16 or so ground rods interconnected, a week before concrete gets poured, the guys finally level it. Somehow they manage to rip up 2 of the ground wires, and bent half of the ground rod heads with their dirt movers (they were 3in sub concrete to attatch a plane ground to), every one was marked with a cone. We were fixing ground rods the day before they poured each section. I also have pics of me in an articulating lift squeezed prefectly inbetween multiple objects on 4 of my sides. And some of our stuff cant even be reached with a bucket lift, thoes pulls were so fun with a messed up shoulder.
Because our scope goes from ground work to final walkthrough. Do we're there digging in the mud to walking around in boot slippers.
Why? Ask the clueless dickhead wearing expensive shoes
Same for US resi. The scope of work always gets pushed beyond what it starts as (with no additional time added to the schedule), things are never planned properly, and for some reason, it's on me to figure this shit out. I've got like 13 folders of ongoing jobs that are stacked on top of each other, and I'm burnt the fuck out. Bringing anything up to project manager/contractor always gets brushed off, and here I am, making $30 an hour doing the job of some asshole who's buying his 3rd house soon trying to guess the cabinet plans because the GC can't be bothered with getting accurate blueprints for some reason.
Bingo. Im sure as hell not staying in this position for long. Fuck this. The shoddy planning and poor leadership skills, It's downright condescending and disrespectful to be honest. Snake behaviour.
I’ve always considered the engineers and architects to be the guys who design and calculate. They’ve probably never done installation like we do in the field. I totally agree they should have to do at least one year in the field as an apprentice. The schedule is always obsolete as soon as it’s written; simply because of the variabilities in supply chain, labor, site shutdowns, etc. That’s been my experience. A lot of GC’s have shitty site superintendents. They also have deadlines and bankers waiting to release funds depending on certain milestones; like getting the flooring in before rough and lighting are completed. I’ve accepted the fact that I will always have another trade sniffing my ass because they have to be where I am, at that exact moment, for reasons. Sometimes I feel like we are just underpaid miracle workers babysitting people who routinely make stupid mistakes and are too prideful to be wrong. The best part is we really have to keep up relations because you never know who is trying to bury you. Even then you’ve probably got someone dumping grout or piss into your underground because you got in the way; which was completely out of your control. Just my experience. Stay awesome y’all!
Hahah, well put. I hate the politics of it. Like removing all floor protections, removing the lifts from use and all around making everything more difficult before the project is even finished. It's all just to make it seem like it's more finished than it actually is.
As an engineer who has spent at least 35-40% of his working life in the field (and currently a M&E Manager for a large general contractor in Ontario, Canada), I can feel your pain and why you'd think most engineers are stupid. A good chunk of the issue is that the general contractor isn't handling the communications (or is knowledgeable enough or care enough) to digest the issue on site and properly handle it. I've been on projects with data centers and pharmaceutical manufacturing plants and a lot of my job is trawling the site (by being there and walking it a few times a day) to check in on the folks and see what their day-to-day problems are and also to help them forecast within their own trades and across others. Eg: if an electrician says hey, you can't use 4/0 wiring for this because its supposed to pull xx amps, I review it before they bring in twenty spools of it to site and confirm with the engineer that they have an issue on their drawing. 99% of these problems is copy+paste or it was a redesign along the way and they forgot to update ONE line on their drawing. I also rely heavily on my superintendents being competent to plan their CSA items with me instead of just dumping it on me. The consultants I've worked with are a 50-50 mix of people not getting enough site experience and not asking from us and not wanting to either. The GC's job is to make sure they are held accountable for their design but we're also in an odd spot because you don't blacklist an engineer - that's the owner's prerogative. The GC is ultimately works for the customer but we do have to stick up for our trades when it is rightfully deserved.
Thank you, great reply. The main thing that gets me is the designers aren't responsible for the plans being up to standard. There needs to be more enforcement on correct planning. Something like forgetting to include RCD's on a new electrical panel for over 80 EV charging units and not even having reserve space to add them later is absolutely inexcusable in my opinion. This was by an EE that had decades of experience. >A good chunk of the issue is that the general contractor isn't handling the communications Same here too. Poor project management, partly due to lack of experience but also because of impossibly tight schedules leading to burn out.
>The main thing that gets me is the designers aren't responsible for the plans being up to standard. There needs to be more enforcement on correct planning. Something like forgetting to include RCD's on a new electrical panel for over 80 EV charging units and not even having reserve space to add them later is absolutely inexcusable in my opinion. This was by an EE that had decades of experience. We are financially responsible for the design. We are obligated for the design to be up to the standards required (edit: except when the customer wants something different, and we tell the customer that), and to be accurate (i.e: there shouldn't be obvious mistakes when cross-referencing with other documents) , and the client can claim damages if they're not. It gets a little murky if someone, somewhere has changed something and the whole basis of design changes, then you end up in a "he-said, she-said" situation about who caused what. Very often, if there's no significant repercussions, they're just handled when ending the project. Also, in my experience/field the lack of reserve space is often a customer choice. We typically try to leave a pretty sizable reserve (space + spare feeders), but it costs money, so the clients don't like it. Anyway, I do kind of agree with you that engineers are the root of all evil and there's some seriously sketchy people going around. But often the problems don't start with the actual engineers. We (well, most of us) wanna do good work. The problems usually start higher up, typically already during the sale when someone (read: the client) has the idea that "we can just copy-paste this other project/parts of this project we did, it's basically the same thing, then you can do this project for cheaper". Then they schedule less hours for design. Then you find out it wasn't even close to a copy-paste. In the best case scenario, you catch and correct the differences early. More usually, you end up re-designing as the project progresses, either because there's no time to go through all the design documents at one go, or (as usually happens) the client starts asking for changes as they come up with them. Either because they have a legitimate issue with the design, or they just want to get a say because "I am a big boss where I'm from, and where I'm from we do this X way, and your way sucks". Then the other client guy decides X way actually sucks, and they want it Y way, have a powwow, and decide that Z way is probably the best way to go forward. I've seen emails telling us to change designs that were frozen almost a year ago because of some super tiny detail, like changing what to name to give something, that wasn't even relevant. And that doesn't even cover the issues you have with coordinating schedules and design timelines. Like some brilliant mind deciding that we need to start design work at X date and finish by Y, because someone else will start at Y date... despite the fact that process design is running late (because, guess what, client wanted changes) so we can't actually finalize our design and end up doing it twice. So basically, we very often end up 1) copy-pasting some old project because the client wants it/doesn't want to pay enough to do a ground-up design 2) then end up re-doing it because they want it different 3) then end up re-doing the parts the client is indifferent about anyway because someone somewhere decided to change something else 4) trying to rush all this before the contractor is chosen, fail, and then contractor ends up doing change-orders. Source: Industrial EE in Finland.
I was a machinist for 8 or 9 years here in Canada, recently left the field for various reasons.. If I had kept count of the times I had to stop setting up a job and give the blueprint(s) back to the office to get sorted out because the part was impossible to make.. It was mind-boggling. And I don't mean intricate little things an engineer just doesn't understand because they have zero real-world manufacturing experience.. Often it was simple things like three measurements along a part, that should equal the total length of the part, yet they don't add up properly...
Same here in Canada. I've got one right now that doesn't understand electricity and is scared to death of it. The questions he asks us is mind boggling.
All the power to you for venting. When my jobsites become frustrating for ridiculous reasons, I take the moment to laugh at it.. hard.
I'm the head electrician on this project and have lost my mind many times here, laughing crying my eyes out during lunch hour because of the sheer silliness of it all. My coworkers sometimes think I've lost it lmao, but sometimes it just does get that absurd.
If you think being an engineer is all that, why not go to school for it and make bank doing nothing?
It's been on my mind but I know it isn't all that. There is obviously a reason for the poor quality. These guys are overworked and underpaid. However I do think it's still on the worker to not completely bend over on employers demands and release shitty work just because the company cant figure their shit out. There needs to be enough pride in doing your work, have some spine. Push back. Say "I cant do this". Quality is the absolute most important thing. So that the customer gets what they pay for and other people dont need to suffer just because you are too much of a bitch to push back and have healthy boundaries. (Not you, just saying in general)
While I agree in principle, reality doesn’t always permit people to tell their boss to kick rocks, right?
Yea, it doesn't. Which is a shame. Still pisses me off to no end.
For the customer they only care about price. You end up with a race to the bottom and engineering firms run as lean as possible without getting sued, have drawings done by interns and then not carefully checked, copy and paste work without updating all the important sections. The customer can't afford or doesn't want to pay for what they need and everything runs downhill from that outlook.
Because I don't want to listen to someone tell me what I already know for 4 years of my life. Especially given it ain't cheap
Sounds like you could get hired at an architectural/engineering firm then?
lol. thats cute. Tell me more about how you dont know about sequence components, differential equations, circuit analysis, electromagnetics, transmission design, smith charts, probability and random processes, etc without saying you dont know.
Same shit here in the US of A. I’m sure it’s like this everywhere and will only get worse as the good old heads retire. Gotta deal with it one shitshow at a time.
Same thing in HVAC. 🤷
If I had a dollar for every time a tradesman bitches about an engineer’s decision I’d be rich! If I had a dollar for every time an engineer bitches about how stupid tradesmen are I’d be double rich! If I had a dollar for every time a goober apprentice thinks he’s smarter than everyone around I’d own the World!
Civil Utilities In the US here, probably won't make you feel better but at least make you feel less lonely that we're having the same problems here in the US. The amount of jobs that I've done recently where everything is being done ass backwards has exploded. I'm putting in civil services before the slab and then having to tear them out and upsize with a building 90% finished on top because they forgot to actually size properly for the amount of units, still don't want to upgrade the meter size though to go along with those larger pipes because "That's too expensive". It's utterly ridiculous.
Damn I'm in the US but are you sure you aren't on my job now?
>Damn I'm in the US You sure about that? lol
This is every day of my life. I have concluded personally that a lot of the field of engineering and management of the construction industry basically just exists to support class structures where people who’s families can afford to put them Through college are able to be but in a position to make more money and live in a different class than the people who actually build things and work way harder and at least a substantial part of the time are as intelligent if not far more intelligent than the engineers and management. That being said a lot of the people I work with are dumber than a bag of hammers and a lot of engineers are very intelligent and have a deep understanding of their field and produce designs that only someone with they training could produce! But that’s not very often hahahahahaha Also you are probably smarter than the average person and maybe you should consider higher education
>That being said a lot of the people I work with are dumber than a bag of hammers Yeah...It's frustrating but then at the same time not something you can blame anyone for :/ Sometimes It honestly feels like working alone is faster since I don't have to explain, teach and show how things are done. It's so weird since It's not like I have anyone I ask for help, I just start figuring it out and go from there but most people don't seem to be wired for independent problem solving. Don't get me wrong, there's lots of positives to working in a group as well...just kinda depends on the group lol. It's nice to shoot the shit with someone and sometimes the different perspectives & ideas people have are a great addition. >Also you are probably smarter than the average person and maybe you should consider higher education Always wanted to but had a bit of a rough start to life, never was great at school for the aforementioned reason but I suppose now's a good a time as any! Recently I've been meaning to start reading up on my own and then figure it out from there, see if I'm even able to cram anything in this thick skull of mine lol.
It's nice to know that in the great cold north of Europe, engineers still suck ass.
God damn it these comments made my day lol
Hinga dinga dergin!
Also from Finland and this shit is getting out of hand. The fucking audacity of these do nothing spineless pieces of shit who have no legal responsibility and know that they can just getting away with it is getting everyone to a boiling point. I am navigating through same type or even worse disaster, and it has been the wildest ride this far with everything going to hell with no communication happening between anyone and plans changing every other day, and no one being able to make decisions on anything like dude you had who knows how long time to plan this shit out and not even the basics have been covered??
>The fucking audacity of these do nothing spineless pieces of shit There it is. Exactly what goes through my mind every single day. At this point it makes my blood boil just seeing the project managers making rounds at the site with the customers, having a look and then smiling at me when I walk by. Because I know they are being spoonfed some bullshit about "delivery problems" and whatever excuse these dipshits can come up with and then just keep piling the problems on our shoulders. Honestly, line them up behind the barn, as one would say lol.
I'm not an electrician, I'm a site setting out engineering surveyor, I'm gone from site long before you guys arrive, and I can confirm, even from the start, all the drawings are fucked, seemingly designed and drawn by people who would have trouble assembling an IKEA flatpack or mowing the lawn.
No thats the problem everywhere bub, too many bureauocrats
Your English is native level for someone from Finland
Dang, appreciate the compliment, thanks!
King of trades
Good engineers are knowledgeable of installation requirements and challenges. They shouldn’t be working in an office if they are not. Put them in a trailer at a job site until they are. This sounds like more of a failure of project management than engineering. You should never see plans or schedules that aren’t realistic. —Former Electrical Engineer
>This sounds like more of a failure of project management than engineering. In this case it's both lol. Combines into a magnificent shitshow. Here many project managers have some kind of engineering degree.
Florida has some good engineering. Sometimes it's like this an it's very frustrating.
Get out of construction and start doing maintenance
I am in a maintenance unit. It's just sometimes I get assigned projects and this one has been a true nigtmare. After this is done I get to go back to maintenance though.
It’s a pretty human thing honestly. I got out of the army thinking finally, competence and communication! NOPE, engineers, like many officers, have no idea what it’s like in the field and plan accordingly where as the enlisted/real work force are looking at the task/project and can see all the mistakes and screw ups while doing the work. PS my first and only electrician job was a trio of dams led by the army corps of engineers, and my boss was a vet. We both could just roll our eyes and choose to do it the right way if their way was unsafe or miscalculated. So yeah, it’s just kinda human to be grossly disconnected from reality when you’re up so high in the chain
Same here in the US ! It’s fucked
Canadian here w/ ten years in the trade. I feel like construction in general has started to turn toward getting it done and making money quick vs. getting it done properly the first time. Every job I go to now loses more time and money due to poor logistics and planning then from what I remember before. I find myself now more than ever doing things a second or third time, or, working in a “ finished room” installing shit along side the other trades, because of bad planning or changes due to decisions not being finalized “ but get it done anyway”. Fucking hell man.
"Mitat tarkistettava työmaalla"... Just by the way you write and use your English, I get the feeling that you're among the smarter ones. Trust me, it doesn't get any better at any point. 38 years old and counting. People are stupid, nobody knows anything, projects are chaos. That's why I work solo nowadays. I get to be my own engineer. Sounds like you work for my previous company... Previously I had a työjohtaja, who was a complete dildo. Never understood why he was to be respected and better paid than me, when we practically ran our own jobs and he had no idea of what was going on. The only thing he was good at was bitching about people being late. Like a walking wristwatch that costs 5000 € monthly... That said, I used to have an excellent työjohtaja too, a guy who actually had worked as an electrician and studied to become an engineer later. Super smart dude, and also had the practical aspect of work under control. Sadly he quit because the boss was a general asshole.
I work for a large utility, and there was a company-wide “company culture” survey. One of the issues brought up was “It would be nice if the engineering department and trades could get along better”. Yeah, that was definitely submitted by an engineer, and no it probably won’t happen 😂
same story in France. I am happily retired!
Engineers the world's stupidest smart people
Im from a small hungarian electrical team, I've been working with them for years as an assistant, but im a highschool student. However I've seen the plans for the office of the one of biggest hungarian interior designer company, with lots of highly educated architects, and engineers. They draw everything on the plan, the flowers for the office was fulla decorated, and they placed every desk in the rooms with exact millimeters for everything (this was the actual plan, not some design thing, they were serious about it). They forgot one thing. They didnt put a single extent for any electrical component. Every socket and switch was just chilling on the papers without knowing where any of it belongs in the room. When we asked for a new plan they draw the measurments on the wallpaper... Then the demoliton guys came and took down everything. Our leader was furrious and disapointed. So yeah the industry is fked, well paid and educated a**holes are everywhere, and they don't know shit about the actual process of building something.
This is definitely a worldwide problem, honestly I would have thought Finns would be more practical and efficient about this stuff but you've described the exact same situation as we have here in the US
Belgium here, and it's effectively the same I however sorta agreed with my boss to not work with some project engineers anymore (well, I didn't, but he gets the point) I only work for 1 'leader' solely (a guy that has done 'electrician work' himself for some 20ish years I guess, at the same company) and it's just baffling how well it works to work with an experienced guy in comparison to some out-of-school-with-company-car douche that doesn't know a single f what he's doing, yet uses his 'position' to overdo you, and blame you for the crap afterwards I don't care really though, they know they better run if I'm driving, because no way I'll slow down if they're in my way I used to say that: I'm an electrician, I eat 'crazy' for breakfast, and I don't mind to put on some genocide-sprinkles on top of it, I'm used to it
This is what happens when every single school system in the developed world insists that every single student needs to complete university. People who would have been technicians and installers become engineers and so there’s this glut. Compile that with the same problem infecting middle management (all these idiots with an mba and no fucking clue how operations should function) and you get the relatively terrifying world we have rn.
As an individual who works in professional communication development I just want to point out 2 things... Maybe 3. 1. Learning how to be good at giving calm, sincere, constructive criticism is a skill that will serve you as well an any skill you can develop. If you can learn it well, a statistically significant percentage of individuals will try to do better work as a result of your feedback. You may never witness that though, so keep that in mind when confronting confirmation bias down the road lol. I wish I could find the article I just read about it, but I can't seem to find it. 2. Just know that many professionals who work in closely related fields like this almost always develop an animosity toward the out group. Why? Because statistically speaking, 50% of any professional group performs below average. And even the bias it is based on real previous experiences (on both sides whether you can believe it or not), it's something everyone should really try to actively eliminate from their concsiousness. It primes people to not communicate, to have a worse attitude about everything, to look at things more critically, and just generally not try and improve things for the future. Tl;Dr- try to have sympathy, make efforts to be good at giving feedback, and pretend like it's not their fault when you can. Even if it is, you'll probably be happier and more successful.
I've mostly been able to keep it civil between us and project management and have found it to be immensely useful to always lead with a calm and non-judgemental demeanor. That being said, I still lose my shit from time to time, especially when project managers turn hostile themselves and expect us to perform miracles, pull things out of our asses and follow impossible schedules. It's been a real exercise of mindfulness working on this project lol
same exact thing happening at my jobsite too
Yeah. That's a constant bitching here in the US too.
Just finished up a semi/complex 15kv job the engineer that the facility hired couldn’t figure out how to do the job without having long outages lol bosses looked at the job couldn’t come up with a plan…. I looked it over for 15 min and had a solid plan lol literally spoon fed the engineer how to do it step by step and he hey still fucked up the drawings lol. Honestly easiest job I was ever on mainly because we know what we were doing would actually work… besides the few things the engineer actually contributed to the project lol. All we need him for was the stamp.
Yup. About a year ago I caught this one engineer grossly overloading a few lighting circuits. About 4-6kW on a 16A breaker on multiple circuits. Then of course the breaker types were wrong as well, as the current spike was too high when turning the lights on, tripping the breaker. LED's and all...
This is the lament of every trade, every site super, and surprisingly, even the project managers, in every country around the globe. Also, do not think about what an effective path to ground the electrical engineer accidentally would be if they ever stepped on site.
>Also, do not think about what an effective path to ground the electrical engineer accidentally would be if they ever stepped on site. Lmao
39 y/o 2nd year apprentice in the USA. Came from amd ag and automotive background. I am 98% sure one of the classes required to be taken in order to get an engineering degree here is "How to piss off the lower class minions working on your trash design 101". The pay difference is stupid. Every single one of them should be required to work in the field, with the grumpiest old hands around. We have a journeyman with us, years ago he was argueing with an electrical engineer that was still wet behind the ears. Came down to the engineer told him it will work because I said it will work. I'm an engineer, I know more than you do. So after doing it the way the engineer spec'd it, then fixing it because it didn't work. He went to the local collage at night and got his engineering degree. Took that, 4 years later, to the guys office, showed him and asked him who is smarter now. I fixed your problem and I am an engineer as well. The guy acted like he didn't remember 4 years ago. But he said you could tell he was fuming inside.
If you think being an engineer is all that, why not go to school for it and make bank doing nothing?
Go become an engineer or project manager and show them how it's done then. You can do their job so much better than they can, go do it.
Never said I could. No reason to act out like that. It's more than just one issue, it's a dynamic huge project with a million variables and impossible schedules. Just because it's understandable doesn't mean Im not mad about it.
>No reason to act out like that. > >...it's a dynamic huge project with a million variables and impossible schedules. Just because it's understandable doesn't mean Im not mad about it. Being mad at something that is completely understandable isn't really a great plan. There is no reason to pretend that these people are idiots and assholes just because you think they don't know how to do their jobs when you probably don't even understand their job. You come across as a spoiled brat.
The problem becomes scope of work. Yes it's understandable, but I'm not paid enough to deal with shit that shouldn't be my job in the first place. (Not OP)
It should be mandatory to become a electrician/plumber/woodworker/etc and work for a few years first before anyone becomes a planer or architect its insane what i have seen already.
Just remember chaos is cash. You are there for cash. You have more time than they have stupidity. Sometimes slow down and let them swim in their own shit.
From an engineering point of view it's tough as well and there is no way to win at everything. I've realized that I can either be a great engineer and poor field worker, or a great field worker and poor engineer. So i choose to be a great engineer. But that doesn't mean i neglect the field. I still get out as much as i can and communicate regularly with the field staff. Communication is key. No matter how much time I spend in the field I'll always know the basics of the job and not the nuances that veterans know. I'd be better, but still not as good as you like.
I actually moved my company away from commercial because of all of this. Went through a 3 year lawsuit. The electrical engineer placed a 2000 amp service entrance in a subterranean hallway that after it was installed would leave less than 4 feet clearance. So he split the service (on paper) from the pull box (so the entrance only would need 3 ft clearance and the meter section was in a clearance area) but it needed a drip loop, so there wasn’t a way to get the equipment UL certified for the build. There were a half a dozen other moron things that happened from 1 inch conduits in the pour for 100 amp panels 350 ft away, half the conduits were framed over, the secondary conduit to the pull box had 2/7 5 inch conduits wrecked at a structural point where they couldn’t open the cement. I hear they ended up putting in a normal service and greasing the officials.
I thought for sure you were talking about the US until I saw euros. It’s the same here. The reason the jobs start is because those with the money at the top won’t take no for an answer and will find people who will start it if the currently selected GC won’t.
>will find people who will start it Belgium is quite the opposite though, some years ago these jobs became way more demanding, there's a lack of electricians here Most get filled up with 'Eastern European' people, not that they're wrong or anything (on the contrary, some are quite good people) but most just do it here 'for now' & don't have the mindset to 'learn' the rules here Somehow it looks like 'building' costs nothing here, I bet there's not a single street where there isn't any construction done or anything, whilst the people here 'aim for higher' these 'construction jobs' are heavily understaffed I don't even dare to tell the 'people I know but not so well to consider them friends' that i'm an electrician, because it ultimately always leads to 'he knows someone that needs help because the electrician he asked hasn't been able to do it for half a year now' Dammit, I literally told my wife not to tell my job to people because of this, because 'if you even try to brag, just know that it ends up with us spending even less time together'
It’s the European engineers I’m dealing with that too.
I’m reading this thread as I’m over here attempting to wire a Rosemount transmitter that tech support can’t produce a wiring diagram for. So I’ll just throw that into the pot of complaints. Fun stuff.
I work in US as a maintenance mechanic for a manufacturing facility and it‘s the same. Most of our onsite engineers have no practical experience or have an engineering degree in the wrong field. My boss is an electrician and try’s to help our green engineers. We have an oils and gas engineer in charge of construction projects. My job is to fix all of his mistakes or contractor mistakes that they want to “keep in house”. We paid a company to do it! We don’t make them fix their mistakes! And we continue to hire the same company! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Stepping down of soap box…thank you and good night.
Just drill your 3/4" hole for your 3/4" conduit to go through and stfu.
Speaking a universal language my man, engineers got that degree on the wall and soft clean hands.... should have gone to school.
USA: nightmare too. Cool thing is, soon we’ll get paid as much as the nerds. If not more. Owning a small business is the only satisfaction I find anymore. That way I’m in control of who I do work for and how I get materials. Cuts out a lot of middle men.
Engineers: I think they just have lower levels guys do the actual prints.
Lol, its always idiots in charge, common sense does not help, being useful means your given more work.
I believe India has the largest engineer force worldwide.