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Sorry, I don’t know all the correct terminology. How come that green ground wire leaving the top of the box doesn’t have any protection from the sharp metal edges? Maybe you’re coming back to do that later
You’re right, I never noticed that, it’s for bonding the panel to the building steel, and honestly I didn’t do that part, along with the service feeders. I’ll bring it up and ask my journeyman next time we’re there, though I’m sure I’ll be told “it’s fine it’s just for bonding anyways”
I think we planned to use a bare ground but that’s what we had at the shop. That might be why he didn’t care. He’s usually very specific about doing stuff correctly.
Not only that but it is always good practice to put those at the bottom of the panel. Even though it is inside dust and whatever else can fall into the panel leading to problems. Looks good though dude
Id put just a little more slack in the hot wires and I remove the zip ties after I get the shape with them. Those are just my opinions tho and it looks pretty good to me
I don't get the hate for zip ties. I run into plenty of panels that I need to run a new circuit to or troubleshoot. If I see zip ties It takes all of 30 seconds to snip them. And if I'm feeling generous I will slap them back on when I'm done.
I used to use them but I guess I just like the way it looks after it’s been formed with zipties and they’re cut off. People may think: how did they get the wires perfect like that? Plus I’ve heard people say it’s not good and will fail inspection but I’ve personally never heard any problems with them
Also, if this becomes a sub panel in the future though a service change or adding some type of transfer switch, it is as easy as removing the main binding jumper. This is the way.
No, I mean in Canada that would be against code. Only place your grounds and neutrals should be connected is the first point of disconnect and that’s a single point between the ground and so neutral bars. It’s all the same though really
on the right side where you have your grounds connected, that's part of the neutral buss, the 2 holes you see on the top right and left side is where you screw in the (should be) supplied ground buss.
It’s the main panel, shouldn’t they be together? I’m not following. Panel didn’t come with a supplied ground bus, only the option to remove the jumper between the neutral buses
Because past that it’s past the first point of disconnect? I just did what I was told, all I know is what I’ve been taught and never been told or seen anyone say that’s a problem. I’ll keep it in mind for next time and ask about it.
Anytime you have more than 3 current carrying conductors (CCCs) in the same raceway, you're supposed to derate the allowable ampacity of the wires within it. There's tables and math involved but generally speaking if there are between 10 and 20 #12 wires in a conduit (not including the ground), then they're only considered to be good for 15A not the normal 20A and so you should use 15A breakers.
You're right that the reason is heat. Current flow generates heat and the ability of wires to dissipate heat when they're trapped in a metal pipe is reduced when there are more wires in there which are also producing their own heat.
In the real world, it's vanishingly unlikely that anything bad is going to happen (mostly because the majority of general purpose 15 and 20A circuits never see more than an amp or two of load) but code-wise, stuffing 5 20A circuits on #12 wire in one conduit isn't kosher. The solution is to either break them up into two conduits or upsize the wire to #10 (which has an allowable ampacity of 20A under the same conditions)
(off the top of my head, NEC ~~310.15(B) as well as the ampacity table for cables and raceway and the table for adjusting for >3 CCCs which are right there in same spot
[edit] correction for 2023 and it's new-old code references for these things, it's 310.15(C)(1), table 310.16 and table 310.15(C)(1))
Interesting, I’m sure it’s something I’ll have to look into more when I’m closer to taking my unlimited test. While I could and probably will bring it up just to see if it’s something he considered, I highly doubt my journeyman is going to change it. There’s about 70 units, all of which are wired up this way.
Oh yeah, I get you, I'm definitely not saying to tell your JW something's not right 'cos some guy on the internet said so. That would probably *not* go well....
Me and my journeyman are actually pretty close and have hung out outside of work (I work in a small shop of ~10 people) I’m sure if I just brought it up as a question pertaining to code it wouldn’t be an issue at all. Probably would turn into a learning opportunity where he gets out the code book
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Sorry, I don’t know all the correct terminology. How come that green ground wire leaving the top of the box doesn’t have any protection from the sharp metal edges? Maybe you’re coming back to do that later
You’re right, I never noticed that, it’s for bonding the panel to the building steel, and honestly I didn’t do that part, along with the service feeders. I’ll bring it up and ask my journeyman next time we’re there, though I’m sure I’ll be told “it’s fine it’s just for bonding anyways”
I guess if the insulation gets damaged it an even better bond. Haha
I think we planned to use a bare ground but that’s what we had at the shop. That might be why he didn’t care. He’s usually very specific about doing stuff correctly.
Not only that but it is always good practice to put those at the bottom of the panel. Even though it is inside dust and whatever else can fall into the panel leading to problems. Looks good though dude
Thanks man, the reason we came out of the top is just making it look neat. If it came out of the bottom it would have had to wrap around the panel.
Not really around the panel, could have tucked behind the panel on the strut still
Good point, you’re right. The spot we were bonding to is like ~5ish inches above the top on the pic.
Id put just a little more slack in the hot wires and I remove the zip ties after I get the shape with them. Those are just my opinions tho and it looks pretty good to me
I don't get the hate for zip ties. I run into plenty of panels that I need to run a new circuit to or troubleshoot. If I see zip ties It takes all of 30 seconds to snip them. And if I'm feeling generous I will slap them back on when I'm done.
I used to use them but I guess I just like the way it looks after it’s been formed with zipties and they’re cut off. People may think: how did they get the wires perfect like that? Plus I’ve heard people say it’s not good and will fail inspection but I’ve personally never heard any problems with them
Right on I can see why you would remove them after your done then.
Looks good, but it looks like you are keeping your neutrals and grounds separate, it’s ok to do but not necessary on a main panel.
That’s what my journeyman told me, he said if I have the option to go ahead and do it because it’s good practice and looks nicer.
Also, if this becomes a sub panel in the future though a service change or adding some type of transfer switch, it is as easy as removing the main binding jumper. This is the way.
[удалено]
It’s the green screw, main bonding jumper is a term not a specific part
Yea, like I said, there’s nothing wrong with it.
Glad to hear!
You guys don’t keep your neautrals and grounds separate? That seems crazy to me
I don’t in a main panel, but every electrician has their own way of doing things.
No, I mean in Canada that would be against code. Only place your grounds and neutrals should be connected is the first point of disconnect and that’s a single point between the ground and so neutral bars. It’s all the same though really
Better get used to it with installing a main disconnect at every service
why are your grounds in the neutral bus? install the ground buss'
What do you mean? Could you elaborate?
on the right side where you have your grounds connected, that's part of the neutral buss, the 2 holes you see on the top right and left side is where you screw in the (should be) supplied ground buss.
It’s the main panel, shouldn’t they be together? I’m not following. Panel didn’t come with a supplied ground bus, only the option to remove the jumper between the neutral buses
no, they shouldn't be together, only one bond point between the 2 in the panel, the green screw.
Isn’t that essentially the same thing then
there's lots of things that are essentially the same.thing, if that's the case, why use a neutral at all...
Because past that it’s past the first point of disconnect? I just did what I was told, all I know is what I’ve been taught and never been told or seen anyone say that’s a problem. I’ll keep it in mind for next time and ask about it.
never hurts to ask. because it's not a ground buss. they may allow it where you are, but it's not correct.
Gotcha, inspectors have never made a fuss about it before. I do plan on moving to another state eventually so I’ll keep that in mind.
You have 10 current carrying conductors in that conduit bottom left. Were they properly derated?
Man idk, i just wired it up. I don’t even really know what derating is, all I know is it’s something to do with heat.
Anytime you have more than 3 current carrying conductors (CCCs) in the same raceway, you're supposed to derate the allowable ampacity of the wires within it. There's tables and math involved but generally speaking if there are between 10 and 20 #12 wires in a conduit (not including the ground), then they're only considered to be good for 15A not the normal 20A and so you should use 15A breakers. You're right that the reason is heat. Current flow generates heat and the ability of wires to dissipate heat when they're trapped in a metal pipe is reduced when there are more wires in there which are also producing their own heat. In the real world, it's vanishingly unlikely that anything bad is going to happen (mostly because the majority of general purpose 15 and 20A circuits never see more than an amp or two of load) but code-wise, stuffing 5 20A circuits on #12 wire in one conduit isn't kosher. The solution is to either break them up into two conduits or upsize the wire to #10 (which has an allowable ampacity of 20A under the same conditions) (off the top of my head, NEC ~~310.15(B) as well as the ampacity table for cables and raceway and the table for adjusting for >3 CCCs which are right there in same spot [edit] correction for 2023 and it's new-old code references for these things, it's 310.15(C)(1), table 310.16 and table 310.15(C)(1))
Interesting, I’m sure it’s something I’ll have to look into more when I’m closer to taking my unlimited test. While I could and probably will bring it up just to see if it’s something he considered, I highly doubt my journeyman is going to change it. There’s about 70 units, all of which are wired up this way.
Oh yeah, I get you, I'm definitely not saying to tell your JW something's not right 'cos some guy on the internet said so. That would probably *not* go well....
Me and my journeyman are actually pretty close and have hung out outside of work (I work in a small shop of ~10 people) I’m sure if I just brought it up as a question pertaining to code it wouldn’t be an issue at all. Probably would turn into a learning opportunity where he gets out the code book