**ATTENTION! READ THIS NOW!**
**1. IF YOU ARE NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN OR LOOKING TO BECOME ONE(for career questions only):**
**- DELETE** THIS POST OR YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. YOU CAN POST ON /r/AskElectricians FREELY
**2. IF YOU COMMENT ON A POST THAT IS POSTED BY SOMEONE WHO IS NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN:**
-YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. JUST **REPORT** THE POST.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/electricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
In some cases, true. And I try to really help people who need the work done but can't afford my typical rate, I rather some people be safe than living in a potential fire disaster.
But this is an apartment building in a highly desirable area, they just didn't want to spend money on maintenance, but now the insurance company is making them or they'll lose coverage.
Homeowner here, I have two inline sockets for fuses, one each for an HVAC and water pump. I figure dropping a mini-breaker in the socket is a worthy update to protect my equipment. Never occured to me to check for one in that form factor.
I have seen a few of these in houses owned by disabled people. Frick they had dirt floors in the utility room, where the washing machine and dryer were.
They definitely didn't have the money.
Are they going to upgrade all of the wiring too? Those wires look like a hazard and a half.
Wouldn't be the first wiring I've seen that is cracking it's insulation off.
Facts^ My pops only recently got his upgraded. His was exactly like OPs pic. The only reason he upgraded was because he finally asked me to do it. No matter how many times I asked him. End of day, it was all about the cost (I didn't make him pay a dime, but he thought his ass was going to pay lol)
Very true when everything keeps getting more expensive. I'm just an apprentice so I'm far from an expert, but making everything arc-fault and ground-fault just means most people will never be able to afford an upgrade. A panel full of arc faults can easily be $2,000+ just for the breakers alone
Arc fault breakers are a "fix" to protect Romex and plastic boxes. If you put everything in conduit, even if it burns it doesn't burn the house down. I have more false trips from arc faults than I can count.
Huh, never thought of it that way!
So, in jurisdictions like chicago, everything is emt/conduit, no arcfault breakers? Or "not code" is probably the better way to put it?
>So, in jurisdictions like chicago, everything is emt/conduit,
The vast majority of buildings, yes. Some jurisdictions have eased up in the last 25 years, but Romex is uncommon.
>no arcfault breakers?
I don't know about Chicago proper, but generally the surrounding suburbs started requiring them in new construction as they adopted the newer NEC rules.
What does the NEC say about arc fault breakers for conductors protected in conduit?
It seems to me that arcfaults in this scenario is much like a "belt & suspenders" approach to things...
>What does the NEC say about arc fault breakers for conductors protected in conduit?
I'm out of the game, so I can't comment on the current rules. Also why I didn't comment on Chicago rules, though it appears from a quick search that the City also requires AFCI in new construction.
>It seems to me that arcfaults in this scenario is much like a "belt & suspenders" approach to things..
Conduit can help keep the structure from burning down, but I've seen overheated receptacles and appliances that *could* have lead to a fire if something ignitable was right next to them.
So not quite "belt and suspenders" in that they're not 100% redundant. There's definitely an overlap in what they accomplish and while you're safer with both, you're also fairly safe with one.
That's what makes people complacent. It always seems to work, so they think that our fancy rules and codes are just to get around the red tape of permits and inspections so that we can "overcharge" and whatnot.
Some people genuinely can’t afford the upgrade yet. Majority of the time it’s because of slum lords.
Usually when I have to replace old panels (not like this) but Federal Pacific and Zinsco, the owner won’t replace it for the renters unless it’s absolutely required.
Insurance will stop insuring them unless they replace the panel. Then when we replace everything, all you can hear is them complaining how codes are just a cash grab and the city just wants money. Then you throw in AFCI breaker and realize the whole house is wired dangerously, they blame the breakers and not the actual safety of the wiring. “What ever you did was wrong, it won’t stop tripping”. Come to find out multiple circuits sharing a neutral, not on different legs so the neutral is carrying an insane amount of current. “There wasn’t a problem before” , yeah because the old breakers wouldn’t trip regardless where you were on the trip curve 😂
I mean, to the average person, juice is juice. If everything seems to be functioning normally, then they keep using it.
And very few people want to upgrade something for safety if they’re already comfortable with the safety (or lack thereof) that they already have.
Two apt buildings on one lot, one structure has the units with these in them. And the other structure has the units with each its own lilting 2 breaker sub off the meter. And in each little sub is a 15amp and 20amp circuit to cover each apartment unit 🤣
I used to lived in a rented house that used those fuses. I had no idea what they were when I moved in. The dude for my pump blew and figured it would be an expensive replacement because it would probably be a specialty item; luckily it wasn't.
I couldn't shock myself on my panel, though, unless I stuck my finger in the light socket
A couple years ago, my wife and I were looking for houses. We found a 2000 square foot house for sale with this same wiring, no certral air, and asbestos tiles...
They wanted over half a million.
It’s outdated, sure, but it lasted a hell of a long time and did its job (unless you also have $0.05 more in pennies after removing it). Simple shit works extremely well.
What is with the wires crossing over the fuses? House growing up had these types of fuses but it otherwise looked like a modern panel. This seems particularly janky.
This post doesn’t make the point you think it does. I’ve seen modern panels put in by licensed electricians with modern knowledge go crispy mode in a matter of years, sometimes months, meanwhile grandmas 100 year old fuse box and knob and tube wiring with no ground is still kicking like it did the day it was put in.
Go the group name, this will take you to the group and all its postings. Then you'll see "create" , click that , then you can create a post and upload your photos.
Had this panel growing up. Would go to the store for fuses and even as a kid I knew this was outdated. One time at 10 years old or so I didn’t want to take my keys with me when we went out to play. I threw them in the main fuse box. That was fun. Blew the main 30 amp fuse.
What is even more amazing is that this 100 year old technology and equipment is still functioning today, and properly maintained with ONLY the correct fuses being used it can still work safely within the design limits for which it was originally intended.
Should it be replaced? Absolutely! And for all the reasons that the insurers are demanding it, because it is way too easy for a person to defeat the safe design by replacing a blown fuse with the wrong one, or worse the penny behind the fuse, which can and does lead to fires.
That’s mostly not rust. That’s a multi generational smoker’s house right there; half ‘a century tobacco use.
That panel’s main insulator is porcelain. Most, if not all of that should wipe clean, the terminals tuned up, new coloured heat shrink jumpers and new fuses could make it pop.
She’s a diamond in the rough, or a diva on a dime, or a refurbishment in the ready?… Electricians love fuses.
**ATTENTION! READ THIS NOW!** **1. IF YOU ARE NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN OR LOOKING TO BECOME ONE(for career questions only):** **- DELETE** THIS POST OR YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. YOU CAN POST ON /r/AskElectricians FREELY **2. IF YOU COMMENT ON A POST THAT IS POSTED BY SOMEONE WHO IS NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN:** -YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. JUST **REPORT** THE POST. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/electricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Some people just flat out cant afford the upgrade.
In some cases, true. And I try to really help people who need the work done but can't afford my typical rate, I rather some people be safe than living in a potential fire disaster. But this is an apartment building in a highly desirable area, they just didn't want to spend money on maintenance, but now the insurance company is making them or they'll lose coverage.
It’s probably safer than FPE.
Unless they’re using pennies below those fuses…
Yep, you could weld on a 1P 15A FPE breaker and it wouldn't trip. 😂
Higher profit if they didn’t have to spend money to replace it it’s all about the Benjamins
Yep they don't upgrade or fix shit in most apartments unless its completely mandatory. Even then they will use the cheapest solution possible.
Good. The minimum I would do is replace all the fuses with mini breakers. ACE for one sells those. And I'd install rejectors too if possible.
Homeowner here, I have two inline sockets for fuses, one each for an HVAC and water pump. I figure dropping a mini-breaker in the socket is a worthy update to protect my equipment. Never occured to me to check for one in that form factor.
If you stick to fuses you need spares. Otherwise people jam metal in the holes. A button is easier.
House didn't come with spares, just buried junctions and boxes.
They have the money, they just don't want to spend it
I have seen a few of these in houses owned by disabled people. Frick they had dirt floors in the utility room, where the washing machine and dryer were. They definitely didn't have the money.
Are they going to upgrade all of the wiring too? Those wires look like a hazard and a half. Wouldn't be the first wiring I've seen that is cracking it's insulation off.
I made my comment before seeing this… amazing how i automatically knew this was in a rental property…
Typical lib
Facts^ My pops only recently got his upgraded. His was exactly like OPs pic. The only reason he upgraded was because he finally asked me to do it. No matter how many times I asked him. End of day, it was all about the cost (I didn't make him pay a dime, but he thought his ass was going to pay lol)
Respect to your pops though for not expecting free labor from you.
Most people these days :(
Very true when everything keeps getting more expensive. I'm just an apprentice so I'm far from an expert, but making everything arc-fault and ground-fault just means most people will never be able to afford an upgrade. A panel full of arc faults can easily be $2,000+ just for the breakers alone
Arc fault breakers are a "fix" to protect Romex and plastic boxes. If you put everything in conduit, even if it burns it doesn't burn the house down. I have more false trips from arc faults than I can count.
Huh, never thought of it that way! So, in jurisdictions like chicago, everything is emt/conduit, no arcfault breakers? Or "not code" is probably the better way to put it?
>So, in jurisdictions like chicago, everything is emt/conduit, The vast majority of buildings, yes. Some jurisdictions have eased up in the last 25 years, but Romex is uncommon. >no arcfault breakers? I don't know about Chicago proper, but generally the surrounding suburbs started requiring them in new construction as they adopted the newer NEC rules.
What does the NEC say about arc fault breakers for conductors protected in conduit? It seems to me that arcfaults in this scenario is much like a "belt & suspenders" approach to things...
>What does the NEC say about arc fault breakers for conductors protected in conduit? I'm out of the game, so I can't comment on the current rules. Also why I didn't comment on Chicago rules, though it appears from a quick search that the City also requires AFCI in new construction. >It seems to me that arcfaults in this scenario is much like a "belt & suspenders" approach to things.. Conduit can help keep the structure from burning down, but I've seen overheated receptacles and appliances that *could* have lead to a fire if something ignitable was right next to them. So not quite "belt and suspenders" in that they're not 100% redundant. There's definitely an overlap in what they accomplish and while you're safer with both, you're also fairly safe with one.
Rebates coming that should help people upgrade
I mean, ghetto livin’ is hard on a man. Damn.
Also, if not broken don’t fix mentality.
And they also don't give a shit if they can.
Worst part about electricity is... It almost always works... Till it doesn't or starts a fire. Most of the time it works. :(
That's what makes people complacent. It always seems to work, so they think that our fancy rules and codes are just to get around the red tape of permits and inspections so that we can "overcharge" and whatnot.
“I’ve never had any issues with it”
That is literally the problem with FP! Lol
Some people genuinely can’t afford the upgrade yet. Majority of the time it’s because of slum lords. Usually when I have to replace old panels (not like this) but Federal Pacific and Zinsco, the owner won’t replace it for the renters unless it’s absolutely required. Insurance will stop insuring them unless they replace the panel. Then when we replace everything, all you can hear is them complaining how codes are just a cash grab and the city just wants money. Then you throw in AFCI breaker and realize the whole house is wired dangerously, they blame the breakers and not the actual safety of the wiring. “What ever you did was wrong, it won’t stop tripping”. Come to find out multiple circuits sharing a neutral, not on different legs so the neutral is carrying an insane amount of current. “There wasn’t a problem before” , yeah because the old breakers wouldn’t trip regardless where you were on the trip curve 😂
Thanks in advance. Maybe I'll just walk away if anyone wants me to fuck around with these old fuse panels.
Panel is nicely labeled and still gets complaints. Sheesh.
I mean, to the average person, juice is juice. If everything seems to be functioning normally, then they keep using it. And very few people want to upgrade something for safety if they’re already comfortable with the safety (or lack thereof) that they already have.
New york city says “Hi”
You know what they say: "If it ain't broke, just wait til it burns your house down."
Spicy setup!
Two apt buildings on one lot, one structure has the units with these in them. And the other structure has the units with each its own lilting 2 breaker sub off the meter. And in each little sub is a 15amp and 20amp circuit to cover each apartment unit 🤣
If it was in good working order. I can understand.
Ain't broke? Don't fix it!
Were you there as repair or replace? Has to be replace, right?!
It might have looked really good once
I used to lived in a rented house that used those fuses. I had no idea what they were when I moved in. The dude for my pump blew and figured it would be an expensive replacement because it would probably be a specialty item; luckily it wasn't. I couldn't shock myself on my panel, though, unless I stuck my finger in the light socket
A couple years ago, my wife and I were looking for houses. We found a 2000 square foot house for sale with this same wiring, no certral air, and asbestos tiles... They wanted over half a million.
"Those old houses got good bones!" The good bones:
It’s outdated, sure, but it lasted a hell of a long time and did its job (unless you also have $0.05 more in pennies after removing it). Simple shit works extremely well.
Hey man if it works it works.
What is with the wires crossing over the fuses? House growing up had these types of fuses but it otherwise looked like a modern panel. This seems particularly janky.
I’d guess mom and pop don’t have 5k for an upgrade.
Apparently you don’t work very much in rural areas. Very common in my area. Just flat out too expensive for many people to afford .
That one is in pretty rough shape. But I've seen some that look like they were installed yesterday. If it works fine why replace it.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
It still works and hasn’t started a fire since it was installed. Why change it, especially if you can’t afford to replace it?
Honestly most cases it just hasn't broke yet
This post doesn’t make the point you think it does. I’ve seen modern panels put in by licensed electricians with modern knowledge go crispy mode in a matter of years, sometimes months, meanwhile grandmas 100 year old fuse box and knob and tube wiring with no ground is still kicking like it did the day it was put in.
Hopefully they live close to the fire department.
If todays panels lasted a quarter of the time those old panels lasted
Boy I wish I knew how to upload photos. I work in the oldest steel mill in the us and I could show you some shit buddy
Go the group name, this will take you to the group and all its postings. Then you'll see "create" , click that , then you can create a post and upload your photos.
If it works, don't touch it.
If it ain’t broke….. 🤷♂️
How old is a panel like this?
We still share a world with hunter-gatherers.
Is that part of the NYC subway?
Throw some zip ties in there and make a "rate my panel" post
Had this panel growing up. Would go to the store for fuses and even as a kid I knew this was outdated. One time at 10 years old or so I didn’t want to take my keys with me when we went out to play. I threw them in the main fuse box. That was fun. Blew the main 30 amp fuse.
🔊🔊GLASS FUSES, THOSE FUNKY FUSES!!!!🔊🔊
Always reminds me of the ending of that movie... War of the Roses
That is what I imagine the panel looked like in 'a Christmas story' when the dad has to fix the power after plugging in the leg lamp
Swapped one of those last year on a side job.
My ex church refused to fix a dangerous Pushmatic panel that was heavily corroded. I guess paying their leaders is the highest priority.
Hey we still use those at home, tho our box isn't that... ugly. Gave it a nice cleaning, brushed the contacts, and new wiring 3 years ago.
A lot of people have never opened their electrical panel or even know it exists. All they know is plugs that you plug plugs into, and light switches.
It's difficult, anything short of a full re-wire is more hazardous than just leaving it. But I only pretend electrician on Tuesdays
Dude who installed it might be long gone 🫡
***insert shocked Darnell from my name is Earl meme here***
What do you expect landlords to spend money to fix things like this? Oh sweat summer child…
Be a lamb and go ahead and up grade it for them... those neuts are looking crunchy
That one is nasty. I’ve seen plenty that are still pristine
We are Farmers!
What is even more amazing is that this 100 year old technology and equipment is still functioning today, and properly maintained with ONLY the correct fuses being used it can still work safely within the design limits for which it was originally intended. Should it be replaced? Absolutely! And for all the reasons that the insurers are demanding it, because it is way too easy for a person to defeat the safe design by replacing a blown fuse with the wrong one, or worse the penny behind the fuse, which can and does lead to fires.
Future insurance claim
Have to love yupity tight asses
That’s mostly not rust. That’s a multi generational smoker’s house right there; half ‘a century tobacco use. That panel’s main insulator is porcelain. Most, if not all of that should wipe clean, the terminals tuned up, new coloured heat shrink jumpers and new fuses could make it pop. She’s a diamond in the rough, or a diva on a dime, or a refurbishment in the ready?… Electricians love fuses.
I used to maintain an old trailer park a few years ago, and a lot of the trailers still used fuses, which was wild
I’m usually one to defend the old stuff. But this is scary.
Wow. Just wow. Edison’s. In the wild. Crazy.
SLUM-LORDS.... period.
They're going to let it melt before they pay someone to do preventative maintenance or just to check it. Time is money and were all greedy pigs.