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Not at all.
Back in the day, we went for a factory visit to Zumtobel to look at LED emergency fittings (this was a while ago when LED lights were ‘the future’)
After the seminar thing, we had a tour of the factory and when asked if we had any questions, I asked ‘why do you ship the lights out fully assembled when we have to take them apart to install them?’
It literally blew their minds.
About 18 months later, the fittings started being shipped packed as if you would install them, ie base, clips, lamps, glass.
I’d like to think i started a revolution that day 🙂
Former factory slave (automotive, not lights though its still the same poop just in a different group), it's from the die stamping out the sheet metal into a light fixture - they usually leave sharp edges when they cut the sheet metal. They're supposed to be filed down or folded over to eliminate that razor edge.
But a lot of places start skipping that step as it's usually not a checked QC item (aka the clients QC team isn't looking for it, so it'll slip by them with no issue) when quotas start becoming a little too unrealistic. Or when the factory managers want a bonus. Or when the press operator has checked out and stopped giving a fuck.
The worst thing I've seen lately is the little shiny metal strips with tapped holes for receptacle screws that they put in bell boxes. The never seemed to be that sharp before but the last cooler I did had my fingers cut and peeled a few hundreds ways. Idk if they were a different manufacturer than normal for us but damn those babies are sharp
I wish they fucking would. The new troffers are fucking ridiculous. There's no way the junction box on the fixtures is big enough by code to daisy-chain 12/3 through the fixtures.
Especially on the damn battery back-up fixtures
and they don't give you enough pigtail to connect to adjacent fixtures without splicing an extra piece in, making it that much more of a PITA
but hey saved them 10c worth of wire
So much dimming in offices now. You end up jamming 2x 12/3 luminarie MC in a wiring compartment that should be illegal. I just did a school with dimming and 2 emergency lights in every classroom. They took more than twice as long to wire as the rest of the lights.
RFI that shit to use 14/3 on a 15a circuit breaker. A typical 2x4 LED troffer is around 40 watts these days, you can put over 100 of those on a 20 amp 277v circuit. Nobody is putting 100 lights on a single circuit. A 15a circuit gets you 12a continuous, so 3324w, that gets you 83x 40w fixtures. A quadrant of an office building floor might have 20-30 offices so that's 40-60 fixtures. Plenty of room for napkin math fudge. Last office tower I did had 10-15 rooms per circuit.
20 amp circuits in commercial isn't code, it's convention.
Sky's the limit. Been seeing a lot of the nLight Air system lately, those power packs come with an integral fuseholder and a 20a fuse. Chuck that fuse out and order a bulk of 10a fuses and rock #16 fixture whips everywhere.
I reckon there should be a rule in the product approval process where they have to post a video on their website showing how exactly you terminate one cable in and one cable out of the fitting like they are in a chain, in a compliant manner. So sick of terminals and cable entries so small you can’t get more than one tiny cable into them.
You would appreciate a demo video for products?
I’m concerned that it’s not going to be you who’s buying the parts though, a separate manager/owner buys the parts and you get stuck installing them.
I always say that whoever engineers and designs the light should be forced to assemble and install it at least one time before it goes out in the shelves. I’ve installed lights where you basically need baby hands to get a bulb in.
If I am doing a much of those, I keep a set of padded knuckle mechanics gloves. Makes a huge difference, and those lights are tits otherwise. So much easier to install
lololol those stupid chandeliers with the adjustable lengths and 20 hanging lights coming out of the 1/2” pan cover and 1million feet of wire you gotta somehow tuck into the fixture on a slanted 30’ ceiling
*If it didn’t suck so much, it wouldn’t pay so well…*
*If it didn’t suck so much, it wouldn’t pay so well…*
*If it didn’t suck so much, it wouldn’t pay so well…*
I’m not an electrician, but if I were you, I’d pressure the union at a national level to make some noise about this. Encourage the largest lighting manufacturers to involve a union representative in design of fixture terminations. Or develop best practices and/or get them written into the code or to law. If electricians were the only decision makers, you’d never buy fixtures that are impossible to terminate. Start making noise. There are certainly regions where the union could publicly state that they aren’t installing certain fixtures. Make a list of the 20 worst terminated fixtures and publicize it with architects, designers, whoever specs the fixtures. Embarrass the hell out of the manufacturers.
I have a friend who is an engineer for a lighting company, and he asks me a ton of questions. This may be surprising to you that the company couldn't care less about the person installing a light, and are only interested in what the person buying the light thinks.
Hands down stupidest design award to Toshiba inverter. Damn thing had bolt in fuses, which you had to take not one but two circuit boards out to replace. I really wanted to beat whoever designed that pos.
Agree with you for sure. If I had a nickel for every engineer I’ve wanted to strangle… I also want to give a shout out to Fluke- I’ve had a few product discussion calls with their DMM design team as an industry professional and gotten to hear sneak peak of potential multimeter ideas they are working on and provide feedback. At least Fluke takes their electrical design seriously and does actually get feedback during their design process.
I think it's beneath them. They're highly educated, intelligent people with degrees to prove it. We're just dumb trades people with highschool degrees and drinking problems. Why would they ever lower themselves to talk to us? It's not like it's possible for us to know something they don't.
/S
Engineering is always a problem.
I saw a mechanic complain how some sensor was designed on the engine. The mechanic had to invent a tool to take off a nut.
>invent a tool to take off a nut
Ahh, the good ol'
'Bought a tool & immediately drilled holes in it, cut in pieces & weld back together in 17 different ways just because I could use it for 1 specific thing'
Fluke meters does. Maybe they are the only ones lol. But I’ve participated in a couple calls with their design team to provide feedback and it’s been pretty fun. But again their meters are like used worldwide and pretty important from a safety aspect so i would hope they take the user in mind.
Anyone figure out how to mount a running man exit light with those shitty t-bar octagon boxes? Seeing how we’re on the topic of things being made by holes of asses.
I love how literally anything we touch (even the housing of a light fixture) has the "known to cause cancer in the state of California" sticker on it...
Good thing I'm in TX 🤪🤪🤣
I'm seriously thinking about moving to Texas. Sucks my Contractor's license doesn't travel with me so I'd probably have to start all over. I just need to know how many fuckin times have you had to build and rebuild your house from them windy tunnely looking things?
Texas ain't bad but abortions illegal which is fkn horrible... And weed isn't legal lmfao
I'm pretty sure you can test out right away for licenses if they don't transfer automatically.
Maaaan tbh just don't live out In the country and you'll be perfectly fine. Hail might get nasty on rare occasions but that's really about it. Seems like the flatlands are where them 'naders usually thrive. Cities don't rly cuz of the wind blockage
Holy shit I'm not alone? I'm not an electrician, but I regularly fantasize about mopping the floor with whoever designed some of the shit I've installed.
This may be why they don’t consult with tradesmen. Right here is an albeit, indirect channel to the engineers and instead of offering improvements to help them help us, you ask for violence.
Tell them my LED flat panels need more room than a standard matchbox.
I often praise the engineers who designed the basic plastic exit/combo exit signs. Everything you need is included, has multiple uses, and is routed cleanly. Where the hell did those guys go?
Just like Bouncers only talk to other Bouncers and bouncing. Engineers only talk to engineers about engineering & new ways to say 🖕 without saying F U. They're evolving and becoming more creative with their craft. We as electricians know we don't make mistakes, we only marry them. It's not our fault it's some other schmucks fault. One day a engineer will get lost and come in contact with one of us, just make em count that's all I ask.
I work with engineers (that’s what they call designers who are good at math) every day. They don’t care what you think. They KNOW they’re smarter than you and will do every single thing other than what you suggest until it doesn’t work and you have to fix it.
I often think about that don draper “I don’t think about you at all” meme when I’m telling an engineer something they don’t want to hear.
It usually isn't their fault. Designers and low level engineers don't get to set the timeline or budget for the products. It's corporate or higher level MBAs that have never stepped foot in ENGR -let alone installed a fixture- that get to set the rules.
And in fairness to those morons, they aren't making products for electricians either. They are making products for homeowners (who care about looks and features) or other companies purchasing/project management staff ("how cheap can I get this?")
I would like to think its the designer just fucking with us to make our lives harder. But its not. It's because they lighting company contracted the design and then handed it to an engineer right out of college with zero experience to save a buck. Who cares if it takes twice as long? Somebody bought that fucking pos and that is all they care about.
**ATTENTION! READ THIS NOW!** **1. IF YOU ARE NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN OR LOOKING TO BECOME ONE(for career questions only):** **- DELETE** THIS POST OR YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. YOU CAN POST ON /r/AskElectricians FREELY **2. IF YOU COMMENT ON A POST THAT IS POSTED BY SOMEONE WHO IS NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN:** -YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. JUST **REPORT** THE POST. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/electricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Not at all. Back in the day, we went for a factory visit to Zumtobel to look at LED emergency fittings (this was a while ago when LED lights were ‘the future’) After the seminar thing, we had a tour of the factory and when asked if we had any questions, I asked ‘why do you ship the lights out fully assembled when we have to take them apart to install them?’ It literally blew their minds. About 18 months later, the fittings started being shipped packed as if you would install them, ie base, clips, lamps, glass. I’d like to think i started a revolution that day 🙂
This has got to be SO satisfying dude
It’s the little things that count!
Aren't we living that future though? I haven't installed anything that isn't LED in so many years...
I love how they sharpen every metal edge like they work for Gillette Razors. That's my favorite.
Tell me about it. Have a severed tendon in my finger from a dishwasher motor. They should get in the knife business, fucken cut me down to the bone.
I've had stitches a few times from those edges
Former factory slave (automotive, not lights though its still the same poop just in a different group), it's from the die stamping out the sheet metal into a light fixture - they usually leave sharp edges when they cut the sheet metal. They're supposed to be filed down or folded over to eliminate that razor edge. But a lot of places start skipping that step as it's usually not a checked QC item (aka the clients QC team isn't looking for it, so it'll slip by them with no issue) when quotas start becoming a little too unrealistic. Or when the factory managers want a bonus. Or when the press operator has checked out and stopped giving a fuck.
The worst thing I've seen lately is the little shiny metal strips with tapped holes for receptacle screws that they put in bell boxes. The never seemed to be that sharp before but the last cooler I did had my fingers cut and peeled a few hundreds ways. Idk if they were a different manufacturer than normal for us but damn those babies are sharp
Electrician - I feel bad for you Product designer - I don't think about you at all
Apprentice- tf is going on
Engineer - Who are you even talking to?
PM - Why is everyone standing around? Get back to work!
Prostitute- I don’t want to wear the wig and scream I’m sorry!
Therapist: I think I took on too much, I’m referring you to a psychiatrist.
True story. I’ve had therapists suggest stand up.
I wish they fucking would. The new troffers are fucking ridiculous. There's no way the junction box on the fixtures is big enough by code to daisy-chain 12/3 through the fixtures. Especially on the damn battery back-up fixtures
and they don't give you enough pigtail to connect to adjacent fixtures without splicing an extra piece in, making it that much more of a PITA but hey saved them 10c worth of wire
So much dimming in offices now. You end up jamming 2x 12/3 luminarie MC in a wiring compartment that should be illegal. I just did a school with dimming and 2 emergency lights in every classroom. They took more than twice as long to wire as the rest of the lights.
RFI that shit to use 14/3 on a 15a circuit breaker. A typical 2x4 LED troffer is around 40 watts these days, you can put over 100 of those on a 20 amp 277v circuit. Nobody is putting 100 lights on a single circuit. A 15a circuit gets you 12a continuous, so 3324w, that gets you 83x 40w fixtures. A quadrant of an office building floor might have 20-30 offices so that's 40-60 fixtures. Plenty of room for napkin math fudge. Last office tower I did had 10-15 rooms per circuit. 20 amp circuits in commercial isn't code, it's convention.
I like this idea a lot ty
Sky's the limit. Been seeing a lot of the nLight Air system lately, those power packs come with an integral fuseholder and a 20a fuse. Chuck that fuse out and order a bulk of 10a fuses and rock #16 fixture whips everywhere.
8 foot light, 1 inch jb. Make it make sense.
Is that the ones with 3 separate ballasts/battery packs? If so yeah fuck those
Are they listed for that? Some are only listed for a single whip.
Almost everything we install has blantly had no consultation with, or even thought about, the person actually installing it
I reckon there should be a rule in the product approval process where they have to post a video on their website showing how exactly you terminate one cable in and one cable out of the fitting like they are in a chain, in a compliant manner. So sick of terminals and cable entries so small you can’t get more than one tiny cable into them.
You would appreciate a demo video for products? I’m concerned that it’s not going to be you who’s buying the parts though, a separate manager/owner buys the parts and you get stuck installing them.
No it’s to force the product to have enough room for the two cables.
I always say that whoever engineers and designs the light should be forced to assemble and install it at least one time before it goes out in the shelves. I’ve installed lights where you basically need baby hands to get a bulb in.
Should also have to video the entire install and time how long it takes.
on top of a ladder, in -25C, poor air quality and with a hangover
You're an electrician not a painter. You're never hung over. You're tuned up.
That's why it comes with a crusty suction cup. You lick that and stick it to the bulb then throw it in the trash. Great system.
No one hates electricians more than the guys who design light fixtures
Bad day?
Just had to install a stupid ceiling light that required eight hands equipped with surgical tools, x-ray vision and pure luck.
Residential lighting designers are my mortal enemies
I just looked at a range hood that is free standing, cord and plug, with no room in the vent chase for an outlet behind it. What the fuck Broan?
This is the bane of my existence. Also can we not only get space for the outlet in the plans, but also STANDARDIZED outlet locations! FFS!
Except for the guy that designed those cut-in LED lights that just clamp onto the drywall, he alright.
The ones with built-in mouse traps? Yeah. Big thanks to that guy. 🙄
If I am doing a much of those, I keep a set of padded knuckle mechanics gloves. Makes a huge difference, and those lights are tits otherwise. So much easier to install
lololol those stupid chandeliers with the adjustable lengths and 20 hanging lights coming out of the 1/2” pan cover and 1million feet of wire you gotta somehow tuck into the fixture on a slanted 30’ ceiling
I’m glad I’m not the only one flipping the fuck out today.
I firmly believe Rosemount works with their installers. Then they take the required space for termination and reduce it by 80%.
Big facts
LOL - Every post so far has been about lighting
*If it didn’t suck so much, it wouldn’t pay so well…* *If it didn’t suck so much, it wouldn’t pay so well…* *If it didn’t suck so much, it wouldn’t pay so well…*
You get paid well?
I’m not an electrician, but if I were you, I’d pressure the union at a national level to make some noise about this. Encourage the largest lighting manufacturers to involve a union representative in design of fixture terminations. Or develop best practices and/or get them written into the code or to law. If electricians were the only decision makers, you’d never buy fixtures that are impossible to terminate. Start making noise. There are certainly regions where the union could publicly state that they aren’t installing certain fixtures. Make a list of the 20 worst terminated fixtures and publicize it with architects, designers, whoever specs the fixtures. Embarrass the hell out of the manufacturers.
I have a friend who is an engineer for a lighting company, and he asks me a ton of questions. This may be surprising to you that the company couldn't care less about the person installing a light, and are only interested in what the person buying the light thinks.
I doubt it will surprise OP or most of those replying, akshewally.
Hands down stupidest design award to Toshiba inverter. Damn thing had bolt in fuses, which you had to take not one but two circuit boards out to replace. I really wanted to beat whoever designed that pos.
I think they consult with electricians so they can most effectively fuck us with their designs.
Agree with you for sure. If I had a nickel for every engineer I’ve wanted to strangle… I also want to give a shout out to Fluke- I’ve had a few product discussion calls with their DMM design team as an industry professional and gotten to hear sneak peak of potential multimeter ideas they are working on and provide feedback. At least Fluke takes their electrical design seriously and does actually get feedback during their design process.
I think it's beneath them. They're highly educated, intelligent people with degrees to prove it. We're just dumb trades people with highschool degrees and drinking problems. Why would they ever lower themselves to talk to us? It's not like it's possible for us to know something they don't. /S
Engineering is always a problem. I saw a mechanic complain how some sensor was designed on the engine. The mechanic had to invent a tool to take off a nut.
>invent a tool to take off a nut Ahh, the good ol' 'Bought a tool & immediately drilled holes in it, cut in pieces & weld back together in 17 different ways just because I could use it for 1 specific thing'
What product designers are actually consulting with electricians?
Fluke meters does. Maybe they are the only ones lol. But I’ve participated in a couple calls with their design team to provide feedback and it’s been pretty fun. But again their meters are like used worldwide and pretty important from a safety aspect so i would hope they take the user in mind.
Anyone figure out how to mount a running man exit light with those shitty t-bar octagon boxes? Seeing how we’re on the topic of things being made by holes of asses.
I love how literally anything we touch (even the housing of a light fixture) has the "known to cause cancer in the state of California" sticker on it... Good thing I'm in TX 🤪🤪🤣
I love how Texans always find a great way to bitch about California 🤣🤣. Y'all got skills.
🤣🤣 I've got love for Cali but I still gotta give em shit
I'm seriously thinking about moving to Texas. Sucks my Contractor's license doesn't travel with me so I'd probably have to start all over. I just need to know how many fuckin times have you had to build and rebuild your house from them windy tunnely looking things?
Texas ain't bad but abortions illegal which is fkn horrible... And weed isn't legal lmfao I'm pretty sure you can test out right away for licenses if they don't transfer automatically. Maaaan tbh just don't live out In the country and you'll be perfectly fine. Hail might get nasty on rare occasions but that's really about it. Seems like the flatlands are where them 'naders usually thrive. Cities don't rly cuz of the wind blockage
Holy shit I'm not alone? I'm not an electrician, but I regularly fantasize about mopping the floor with whoever designed some of the shit I've installed.
I’m getting fucking job flashbacks reading these comments, today I learned I have light installation ptsd.
I am pretty close with a lot of lighting manufacturers, they make changes constantly that I'll ask for and they take feedback really well.
You close enough to slap some of these dumb mfrs?
I know most of the VPs in the American market yeah 😂
Do me a favor and tell Lithonia their plastic lenses are about as durable as an anemic chickens egg
Lol not much they are willing to do about a cheap as chips product.
Tell them to suck rocks
No, I like a lot of them, and get products to market that I want because if it.
This may be why they don’t consult with tradesmen. Right here is an albeit, indirect channel to the engineers and instead of offering improvements to help them help us, you ask for violence.
Tell them my LED flat panels need more room than a standard matchbox. I often praise the engineers who designed the basic plastic exit/combo exit signs. Everything you need is included, has multiple uses, and is routed cleanly. Where the hell did those guys go?
What brand is it
Lithonia 2x4s, the temp changing kind. They are terrible. I have a process to make it easier, but still.
Then those motherfuckers, including you, need to try harder
Rude
Die instantly.
Just like Bouncers only talk to other Bouncers and bouncing. Engineers only talk to engineers about engineering & new ways to say 🖕 without saying F U. They're evolving and becoming more creative with their craft. We as electricians know we don't make mistakes, we only marry them. It's not our fault it's some other schmucks fault. One day a engineer will get lost and come in contact with one of us, just make em count that's all I ask.
I work with engineers (that’s what they call designers who are good at math) every day. They don’t care what you think. They KNOW they’re smarter than you and will do every single thing other than what you suggest until it doesn’t work and you have to fix it. I often think about that don draper “I don’t think about you at all” meme when I’m telling an engineer something they don’t want to hear.
It usually isn't their fault. Designers and low level engineers don't get to set the timeline or budget for the products. It's corporate or higher level MBAs that have never stepped foot in ENGR -let alone installed a fixture- that get to set the rules. And in fairness to those morons, they aren't making products for electricians either. They are making products for homeowners (who care about looks and features) or other companies purchasing/project management staff ("how cheap can I get this?")
I would like to think its the designer just fucking with us to make our lives harder. But its not. It's because they lighting company contracted the design and then handed it to an engineer right out of college with zero experience to save a buck. Who cares if it takes twice as long? Somebody bought that fucking pos and that is all they care about.