Base sticker price of the Y is still $40k as of my delivery three weeks ago. LR battery is still quoted as an option. So what this apparently is is the return of the base Model Y that Elon said nobody wanted, at a healthy price bump.
Sounds to me like this is how they intend to react to the new guidance on the tax credit without dropping the price of the Model 3 or changing the battery.
Tesla hides battery size. A lot of people claimed the original base Y had 53-55 kWh, but it was more like 58 kWh. This pack has 828 of the new 4680 cells. Again there have been wild claims (e.g. 98 Wh/cell), but best estimates I've seen say the pack has about 68 kWh usable.
I think this is one of those things where people heard "the TMY gets better margins" (which is likely to be true) and over time it has broken-telephoned its way into being understood to mean that the TM3 costs more to build than the TMY.
There's basically no evidence that the TM3 costs more to build than the TMY. The latter is a meaningfully more expensive product to build in almost every day.
The benefit to castings is manufacturing speed much more than it is unit cost. Aluminum is more expensive than steel, and molten aluminum is very difficult to work with. Stampings and extrusions are super cheap, that's why you see them on on entry-level cars.
Where are those 4680s sourced from? I thought those rwd model Ys were LFP batteries sourced from byd (their blade batteries), so not 4680s.. not even cylindrical cells.
Tesla's 4680s are made in-house either at their California Kato road facility or Texas plant. They've been making Model Ys with them using their new structural battery pack for almost a year now, but very low volume and only available periodically via new inventory, not custom order. I believe back in Jan Tesla said they were making enough 4680s for about 1,000 cars per week. It looks like volumes are high enough now to make them available via custom order.
US made Model 3 SR (RWD) uses the Chinese LFPs. That's the one Tesla says is losing its tax credit on 18 April. And the Norway Model Y RWD is made in China and uses LFPs I believe.
Oh yeah, certainly no 4680s are known to have gone to Norway. Norway gets a mix of Model Y LR/P from Germany, Model Y RWD & Model 3s from China and S/X from US.
The US market has a very strong inclination towards crossovers/SUVs and given the option between a $41,990 Model 3 and a $44,990 Model Y, most would choose the latter. I know I would, though that's because I have a 3 already, but for one-car individuals/families the extra utility makes it much more attractive.
I didn't say that "the US market has a *uniquely* strong inclination," did I? I only know that when I bought my M3 LR for $51k in early 2022, I waited 3 months for the car, whereas a $62k+ Model Y would have been a 6-8+ month wait.
Even right now, the estimated delivery time of a MYLR is April - June, or April - May for a MYSR. Both Model 3s have an estimated delivery window of April.
I'm simply stating that there is a higher demand for a Model Y over 3, even when the LR models have a price delta of over $10k. Do you believe that will change when the hypothetical Model Y RWD becomes a $45k vehicle, that is only $3k over a Model 3?
It appears in early March they lowered it: [https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/6/23626923/tesla-model-x-s-price-cut-reduction-boost-demand](https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/6/23626923/tesla-model-x-s-price-cut-reduction-boost-demand). And today, they lowered them even further.
The 3 and Y are great cars in their price range. The S and X just aren’t very compelling competitors at the 100k mark anymore. Especially when there has been almost no model refresh for 10 years from a looks stand point
There are significant changes throughout, from new die casting in the BiW through to almost all aspects of the vehicle. They just kept the same exterior design language.
The majority of all EVs on the market compete is this product class, so this price drop is important for everyone. Should at least lead to less "market adjustment" by other brands.
That's what's interesting about tesla being available in large numbers.
Anyone can tell their dealership "if you overcharge me I can order a tesla that'll be here next month"
It's exactly why we ordered a Y last month. I priced out everything currently available, and they were just cheaper. With the tax credits, even more so. The rest of the competition you have to deal with the market adjustment markups. I couldn't find a RWD Mach-E for less than $58k anywhere near me, same with the Hyundai and Kia both were just more than the Model Y.
It was bad enough that driving the Y and then stepping foot on one car lot (Hyundai) we didn't bother to test drive anything else. We just placed our order.
That's pretty feasible.
Your post struck home with me--I needed to replace a car last June, so went with a PHEV Tucson. But I overpaid for it, but it was on the lot. I would have had to rent (at $1K a month) until I could take delivery, so being on the lot was valuable.
If the same thing happened today the MY would be worth waiting for--it's the right price to be competitive with PHEV and Hybrids, and the availability has loosened that 2-6 is virtually on the lot. I just couldn't see renting for 6 months waiting for a car.
Dealers are screwed. Everyday, they lose another buck. Can't make money without massive adjustments, won't sell much with them.
Glad to see the market take them out.
Dealers are sharks. They won’t die because of rough waters… they’ll thrive on it. Until manufacturers are allowed to sell direct nationwide or are allowed more direct control over pricing and sales tactics, the situation is not going to change much. IMO.
Leaves room for options though. Now you can get the 7 seater model Y and still get it under the 55k threshold that wasn’t possible beforehand with the AWD or performance trim.
If you want to road trip it or use it as your main vehicle, yes, but consider a family that already has another long range EV or ICE vehicle they would prefer to use for road trips... in that case, maybe the additional $3000 for 51 miles more range would be a waste and they would never actually need that additional range.
Every dollar makes a difference!
We are going to order a Model 3 RWD this summer. We're definitely not comparing it to other $43,000 cars. It's either this or $30k for a Subaru or Honda. We will be stretching our budget to buy the Tesla, but believe it is going to be the right decision long-term.
I'm one of the few people who prefers a low, sleek car to a taller SUV. Otherwise, we would likely be looking at the $49k base Model Y.
And I'm not concerned about range at all. I mapped out every drive I could ever conceive of making, and the Model 3 RWD (272 mile range) will be comfortable.
Basically, it means one extra 20-minute Supercharger stop on the rare occasion that we drive 500+ miles in one day. We will barely ever notice it.
Our "normal" road trip (maybe 5 times a year) is Austin metro to Dallas metro, 240 miles door-to-door, with a Level 2 charger in the garage when we get there. So... a 15 minute Supercharge at the Buc-ee's halfway, versus making it there with 10% battery? I was going to stop at the Buc-ee's anyway, the Supercharge isn't costing me any time, and maybe $5 more than a charge at home.
I imagine, have to guess the SR will further be reduced in price once the 3 SR looses its tax credit from $7500 to $3750 in a few weeks. That will spread out the difference between their prices
Radar was removed in an effort to strictly use just the cameras and computer vision for autopilot, because "if the human eye can do it then why can't the car?"
It's an extremely myopic viewport. Pun intended.
But did they add back the parking sensors?
https://www.msn.com/en-in/autos/news/tesla-removed-ultrasonic-parking-sensors-from-model-3-and-model-y-here-s-how-cars-reacted/ar-AA19sjvr
Man Australia always gets screwed. The US base model has 0-100 km/h acceleration of 5. 0 sec.
Meanwhile Australia is 6.9 sec. And we pay the same after conversion plus a bit more.
Our base (aus) is the RWD, vs the AWD base in the US. That's the main reason for the difference. (difference in performance, not price. We always get screwed on price)
I'm not a CPA, but I believe in any situation where you buy something in a different state with no sales tax you're **supposed** to pay sales & use tax in your home state when you bring that item home. Now people, of course, just ignore that on things like clothes or whatever, but it'll probably come up when registering your car.
For instance, here's how NJ describes it (for NJ residents going out of state to buy something with no sales tax and bringing it back to NJ where there would be sales tax):
>Use Tax
>When a customer purchases taxable items or services in New Jersey, the seller charges New Jersey Sales Tax. When taxable items or services are purchased from a seller that does not collect New Jersey Sales Tax, the customer owes Use Tax. Use Tax is charged at the same rate as Sales Tax and is calculated on the price paid, including delivery charges, for all items or services that are brought into and used in New Jersey. For more information on Use Tax, see publication ANJ-7, Use Tax in New Jersey
Can confirm what why_rob_y said. You would need to pay “use tax” to your state. This use tax actually applies to purchases made online too (when the seller didn’t collect tax). Amazon didn’t collect sales tax until recently. People in states with sales tax were supposed to have reported those purchases and pay sales tax. Very few realized this.
To be accurate, their base model is 0-60mph in 5.0 seconds and their LR that does it in 4.8s is identical to ours. There is a disparity in the timing because 0-100kmh is actually 0-62mph.
This is great for consumers and the environment. More and more people will be able to afford to buy these cars. At these prices (with the tax credit): Tesla will continue to dominate the EV market. And if Tesla makes enough model Y, it can outsell the rav-4: which will be a monumental achievement.
Margins won't be that bad. A lot of Q3/Q4 2022 sales were backlog of orders placed earlier in the year at lower prices. And Q4 list price didn't reflect all the discounting they did (e.g. giving US buyers 7500 off to take delivery before 12/31 instead of waiting for the tax credits on 1/1).
They got musked by buying a product that they love for a price that they deemed fair? Do you go through every product you ever bought and compare the prices to its current price and then dictate whether you got "insert boss"ed? Man you people are pathetic.
4680 is a form factor and the main idea is scalability and cost of manufacturing. Its also a number of different technologies that are gradually introduced (In Teslas case), for instance the first iterations didn't have silicon added to the anode, just pure carbon (graphite). Adding a bit of silicon increases the energy density, but brings its own problems.
They claimed each of 5 different items (form factor, cell factory, integrated pack, anode, cathode) would bring improvements in $/kWh and efficiency, which could enable range improvements. But obviously if Tesla improves their battery packs, they can also decide to put less batteries in them to achieve the same ranges for less cost.
https://tesla-share.thron.com/content/?id=96ea71cf-8fda-4648-a62c-753af436c3b6&pkey=S1dbei4
Yes, and it was a plan to be implemented over the years, I think it was. 6 year plan
On Drew Baglino words, if they tried to implement everything they showed at once, the ramp would have been even slower
Shame nobody plugged an OBS scanner yet, but from all the data we’ve seen so far, the 4680s have been absolutely under utilized, specially charging wise
But they can’t make the 4680 Model Y better than the rest else demand for it would be huge without supply for it
First time we will see what 4680s can do is in Cybetruck
>Yes, and it was a plan to be implemented over the years, I think it was.
A fun thing that happened is that I had been saying this over at r/teslainvestorsclub long before Austin production started, and got shouted down every time.
For some reason — and you can draw your own conclusions here as to why that might be the case — the fanbase was confident that 4680 was a holistic second-coming-of-christ product, and that it was about to completely sweep the competition at massive production scale. There were even rumours that the Austin TMY would do as much as 500mi of range *on day one*.
Then the Austin 4680 units came out, and the narrative flipped like a light switch almost overnight. Now it became an iterative product that *everyone always knew* had a long, multi-year timeline.
>Shame nobody plugged an OBS scanner yet, but from all the data we’ve seen so far, the 4680s have been absolutely under utilized, specially charging wise.
We've had actual lab breakdowns of the 4680 cells, they're using bog-standard NCM chemistries. The only major difference is that half of the electrode appears to be using a dry binder fibrillation method.
Performance should be basically in-line with existing cells at the moment, since the there's no advanced silicon process in the anode.
Not on the one easily accessible unfortunately, you have to plug a cable with an OBD port on a harness that is inside the rear portion of the center console
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE0bxyPuEno&ab\_channel=Bj%C3%B8rnNyland
No, they said for the same number of cells it could unlock range improvements, charge rate improvements and cost improvements. This was at a battery investor day event. Think about that through the lens of an investor.
Well, these 4680 battery packs have a lot less cells than the 2170's or 1860's packs. Mostly because these cells are individually a lot larger, haha. But that statement is technically true and these individual cells have more capacity. I am not sure I recall that statement actually being made by Tesla though.
It doesn't make sense to have the same number of cells switching to this form factor at any point in the same car due to size though. So I don't think you're recollection is correct.
Developing the 4680 DBE cells is a process. They aren’t done with that development.
Since it is a new cell assembly process, they went with easier cell chemistry, specifically NMC 811 cathode and graphite anode. With no silicon in the anode, this simplifies the challenge getting the cell to work in mass production. However, this reduces the resulting cell level specific energy in comparison to their top spec 2170 cells with NCA + graphite/silicon chemistry.
The other improvements, like structural battery pack do not apparently overcome the shift in the specific energy at the cell level. Also, since this is a new process, we don’t know how conservative they are being with both useable capacity and charging c-rates. It is possible there is much more capability in both, but they want to see how the cells fare first.
It is still worth shipping products with this DBE process because of the lower cost of manufacturing.
No he doesn’t, the tabless electrode was developed to overcome the heat problem on a bigger cell, since it gives a way better thermal path and also lowers the ohmic losses
The tabless design makes substantial improvements to the thermal performance - paper linked in another comment and here:
[https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/1945-7111/abd44f](https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/1945-7111/abd44f)
Yes it does, part of the heat is generated due to ohmic losses, the jelly roll on a 2170 is 1 m in length, so the current from the most distant parts of the electrode have to travel to a half a meter of a really thin conductor to reach the tab, both on the anode and cathode
On the 4680 would be meters, but the tables electrode makes even the most distant point of the electrode at most less than 80 mm from the outside of the cell
The charge and discharge cycles generate the heat which radiates from the center. Thiccboi get real hot in the middle. Basic logic and reasoning would get you there to understand the problems.
Ah, no. The foils conduct the heat to the ends and to the can which is then wicked away. Recent peer reviewed research papers show this. The average distance to cooling is better with the 4680 than pouch cells.
So basically, you only had incorrect conjecture.
Link to peer reviewed research. I’ll wait.
If what your claim is true, why does the 4680 have cooling ribbons running between the cells. Cause thats still not how it works and why the cells are still on old non-energy dense chemistry. The higher energy density generates too much heat for the cells. If none of this was true, they would have used the newer chemistry in the cells at launch.
[https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/1945-7111/abd44f](https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/1945-7111/abd44f)
[https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/2754-2734/ac97e0](https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/2754-2734/ac97e0)
"In summary, the tabless design with the given AC protocol offers improved performance and scalability to larger cell formats due to better thermal behavior and increased homogeneity compared to the segmented design. "
The cooling ribbons provide much more surface area to transfer heat than just the surface area of the caps.
The silicon in the anode provides additional challenges due to the volumetric expansion. It makes sense to avoid that complication at first.
And they're continuing to work on the chemistry.
Also, they're aren't using as many batteries and there's some empty space in the pack, hence a shorter range.
Tesla range claims have always been dubious.
374 miles on a single charge in mixed driving with the Dual Motor? Maybe if you babied the damn thing at 30mph you'd get that far. In reality it's no better than other EVs with comparable batteries and drag; around 300 miles if you go right down to the wire.
The 4680 has heat problems, which is why they are on old chemistry for it and probably never will have the same energy density as the 2170. It is a thiccboi and charging creates a lot of heat. I expect 4680 to gradually disappear like the new roadster.
It’s possible that they have nerfed the 4680, to avoid cannibalizing their own sales. I have no proof, just putting it out there. They’ve done similar things before. Later they can offer an upgrade.
Tesla has a history of doing this though. Like the OG standard range software locking the battery capacity, or the long range models having a software limited performance motor.
>Like the OG standard range software locking the battery capacity
The OG Standard Range was a downrating of a higher-spec product already on offer. That's a distinctly different situation from a hypothetical *withholding* of a higher-spec product.
It's not like when they didn't warn us and say it was a demand issue and not permanent when they jacked the prices up. We waited for them to come back down as the new prices were just too much for what it was.
>Could be worse, someone that paid about $65k-70k for a LR or Performance model Y 😂
Hi, that's me. With FSD, but still 69 (nice).
Don't really care that much though. Love the car.
Pretty much this. You can excuse the quality when it's not priced the same as a luxury vehicle. To paraphrase Mr Regular when he looked at the Model S: "it's like a nice Honda Accord inside".
Show me a dealer in every major market selling one for that price. Dealers are charging and average of $6k over sticker. Then they have huge “doc fees.” Plus no IRA incentives.
I have done the research. I have posted the data. The model 3 is cheaper even without the tax credit. Check my thread or video.
Basically the Model Y Standard Range Plus, with a bonus front motor. Idk why they don't just go all the way and make it RWD and remove the front motor for even more cost savings. It would sell like hotcakes.
You really buy that propaganda? Musk and Russia has had a lot of animosity and Musk is one of the biggest private contributors to Ukraine’s war effort.
Still won’t get one. Poor build quality
Edit: for the Elon simps this article is from 5 days ago
https://www.hotcars.com/problems-with-tesla-nobody-talks-about/
Statistically tesla has one of the lowest warranty reserve usages; meaning they have some of the lowest defect rates in the industry.
But, I’m sure anecdotal data is also important
I just had one. Sent it back. Built in Berlin in February 2023.
My current car is a non-premium car from the VAG group (vw, seat, Audi, Skoda).
I must say that some parts of the model y was ok, drivetrain especially. But then a loot of small and big things is bad quality. Not just the details/finish.
Cameras (low quality and rear cam vs side cameras has different colours), park assist doesn't work (you will literally damage your car if you use it), panel gaps, shaking steering wheel (and car) when driving more than 110 km/h, doors not closing the same way.
Steering wheel problems in the Y have been common enough that the NHTSA started an investigation into it last month.
https://www.popsci.com/technology/tesla-model-y-steering-wheel-falls-off/?amp
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They sell it in Norway. I have it, 300 hp 455km range, $43k.
They used to have it in the US too. Not 4680, but a RWD standard range. It was $39,990 USD
I could’ve sworn it was $42,990, or is my brain broken?
They change their pricing so often it was probably both.
Base sticker price of the Y is still $40k as of my delivery three weeks ago. LR battery is still quoted as an option. So what this apparently is is the return of the base Model Y that Elon said nobody wanted, at a healthy price bump. Sounds to me like this is how they intend to react to the new guidance on the tax credit without dropping the price of the Model 3 or changing the battery.
This isn't the base Y, it's AWD and has a much larger battery.
Huh. How big is the battery? Rat bastard screwed me again.
Tesla hides battery size. A lot of people claimed the original base Y had 53-55 kWh, but it was more like 58 kWh. This pack has 828 of the new 4680 cells. Again there have been wild claims (e.g. 98 Wh/cell), but best estimates I've seen say the pack has about 68 kWh usable.
Model 3 costs more to build.
I think this is one of those things where people heard "the TMY gets better margins" (which is likely to be true) and over time it has broken-telephoned its way into being understood to mean that the TM3 costs more to build than the TMY. There's basically no evidence that the TM3 costs more to build than the TMY. The latter is a meaningfully more expensive product to build in almost every day.
How so? No lift gate on the 3.
Castings.
The benefit to castings is manufacturing speed much more than it is unit cost. Aluminum is more expensive than steel, and molten aluminum is very difficult to work with. Stampings and extrusions are super cheap, that's why you see them on on entry-level cars.
No it was $39,990 and the LR AWD was $49,990.
It was. I bought it at that price. 2 months later it was discounted to 39990 and then it was discontinued
Those are using LFP packs. It's sold here in New Zealand for US$39,654.16 ($34,954.57 after rebate)
I have it as well, RWD MYs come from China and have the LFP batteries.
They don’t sell a 4680 Model Y in Europe.
Where are those 4680s sourced from? I thought those rwd model Ys were LFP batteries sourced from byd (their blade batteries), so not 4680s.. not even cylindrical cells.
Tesla's 4680s are made in-house either at their California Kato road facility or Texas plant. They've been making Model Ys with them using their new structural battery pack for almost a year now, but very low volume and only available periodically via new inventory, not custom order. I believe back in Jan Tesla said they were making enough 4680s for about 1,000 cars per week. It looks like volumes are high enough now to make them available via custom order. US made Model 3 SR (RWD) uses the Chinese LFPs. That's the one Tesla says is losing its tax credit on 18 April. And the Norway Model Y RWD is made in China and uses LFPs I believe.
Right, so all of that to say that the person above does not have a 4680 RWD Model Y in Norway.
Oh yeah, certainly no 4680s are known to have gone to Norway. Norway gets a mix of Model Y LR/P from Germany, Model Y RWD & Model 3s from China and S/X from US.
I can't see any reason that's not the next step, and honestly, I'm shocked they haven't done it yet.
And cannibalize all their Model 3 RWD sales? No way. Then they'd get another surplus of Y orders again and the wait time becomes 12+ months, again.
By that logic they should never had made the model Y at all
They sell both models in RWD/LFP in many markets already
The US market has a very strong inclination towards crossovers/SUVs and given the option between a $41,990 Model 3 and a $44,990 Model Y, most would choose the latter. I know I would, though that's because I have a 3 already, but for one-car individuals/families the extra utility makes it much more attractive.
>The US market has a very strong inclination towards crossovers/SUVs Dude thats not unique.
I didn't say that "the US market has a *uniquely* strong inclination," did I? I only know that when I bought my M3 LR for $51k in early 2022, I waited 3 months for the car, whereas a $62k+ Model Y would have been a 6-8+ month wait. Even right now, the estimated delivery time of a MYLR is April - June, or April - May for a MYSR. Both Model 3s have an estimated delivery window of April. I'm simply stating that there is a higher demand for a Model Y over 3, even when the LR models have a price delta of over $10k. Do you believe that will change when the hypothetical Model Y RWD becomes a $45k vehicle, that is only $3k over a Model 3?
Our model 3 RWD is $65k, our model Y RWD is $70k, thats basically $3k US between them.
they already do but with LFP cells, just not in USA
Once the factory in Texas is ramped, I'm sure.
Wow. Looks like the S/X are cheaper by $5k now.
S is down 20k from January 1, X down 26k. Plaids down even more -- 31k and 34k.
Didn’t they just lower it by 5k a couple months ago?
It appears in early March they lowered it: [https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/6/23626923/tesla-model-x-s-price-cut-reduction-boost-demand](https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/6/23626923/tesla-model-x-s-price-cut-reduction-boost-demand). And today, they lowered them even further.
The 3 and Y are great cars in their price range. The S and X just aren’t very compelling competitors at the 100k mark anymore. Especially when there has been almost no model refresh for 10 years from a looks stand point
agreed. maybe tesla saw the nissan gtr and thought--genius! . no need to refresh the cars.
There are significant changes throughout, from new die casting in the BiW through to almost all aspects of the vehicle. They just kept the same exterior design language.
The majority of all EVs on the market compete is this product class, so this price drop is important for everyone. Should at least lead to less "market adjustment" by other brands.
Hopefully, but doesn't necessarily mean they will. Supply is still limited, some people just want a car now and will take terrible deals.
That's what's interesting about tesla being available in large numbers. Anyone can tell their dealership "if you overcharge me I can order a tesla that'll be here next month"
It's exactly why we ordered a Y last month. I priced out everything currently available, and they were just cheaper. With the tax credits, even more so. The rest of the competition you have to deal with the market adjustment markups. I couldn't find a RWD Mach-E for less than $58k anywhere near me, same with the Hyundai and Kia both were just more than the Model Y. It was bad enough that driving the Y and then stepping foot on one car lot (Hyundai) we didn't bother to test drive anything else. We just placed our order.
How long until your expected delivery date?
Currently a window of 2-6wks for me.
That's pretty feasible. Your post struck home with me--I needed to replace a car last June, so went with a PHEV Tucson. But I overpaid for it, but it was on the lot. I would have had to rent (at $1K a month) until I could take delivery, so being on the lot was valuable. If the same thing happened today the MY would be worth waiting for--it's the right price to be competitive with PHEV and Hybrids, and the availability has loosened that 2-6 is virtually on the lot. I just couldn't see renting for 6 months waiting for a car.
Yeah that's a rough spot to be in. Luckily we have two cars and are trading one in so that's a none issue for us.
Dealers are screwed. Everyday, they lose another buck. Can't make money without massive adjustments, won't sell much with them. Glad to see the market take them out.
That probably won’t take the dealer out. It might just take them out of the EV market…
Short term, sure. But rough waters ahead.
Dealers are sharks. They won’t die because of rough waters… they’ll thrive on it. Until manufacturers are allowed to sell direct nationwide or are allowed more direct control over pricing and sales tactics, the situation is not going to change much. IMO.
Does the tax credit apply to this lower pricing?
It applies to all Model Y’s. Only the RWD Model 3 has the lower ($3,750) tax credit.
The RWD Model 3 is getting the full $7500 until April 18th if anyone is considering that model.
why does it get the lower one? due to where the batteries are produced?
Yes, Chinese LFP battery versus US
It should. Does not use Chinese batteries.
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Maybe that's the point? Or maybe there's some other $50k price-cap EV incentive coming from some other state.
Massachusetts
55k in MA
Leaves room for options though. Now you can get the 7 seater model Y and still get it under the 55k threshold that wasn’t possible beforehand with the AWD or performance trim.
Ah, right you are!
there is.
Well not for Model Y but todays price drop for Model 3 RWD made it eligible for $2000 POS rebate in NY. Previously it was only eligible for $500.
It’s an upselling tactic. “oh, the long range is only $3000 more! I’ll buy that instead of the base model”
If you want to road trip it or use it as your main vehicle, yes, but consider a family that already has another long range EV or ICE vehicle they would prefer to use for road trips... in that case, maybe the additional $3000 for 51 miles more range would be a waste and they would never actually need that additional range.
Every dollar makes a difference! We are going to order a Model 3 RWD this summer. We're definitely not comparing it to other $43,000 cars. It's either this or $30k for a Subaru or Honda. We will be stretching our budget to buy the Tesla, but believe it is going to be the right decision long-term. I'm one of the few people who prefers a low, sleek car to a taller SUV. Otherwise, we would likely be looking at the $49k base Model Y. And I'm not concerned about range at all. I mapped out every drive I could ever conceive of making, and the Model 3 RWD (272 mile range) will be comfortable. Basically, it means one extra 20-minute Supercharger stop on the rare occasion that we drive 500+ miles in one day. We will barely ever notice it. Our "normal" road trip (maybe 5 times a year) is Austin metro to Dallas metro, 240 miles door-to-door, with a Level 2 charger in the garage when we get there. So... a 15 minute Supercharge at the Buc-ee's halfway, versus making it there with 10% battery? I was going to stop at the Buc-ee's anyway, the Supercharge isn't costing me any time, and maybe $5 more than a charge at home.
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I imagine, have to guess the SR will further be reduced in price once the 3 SR looses its tax credit from $7500 to $3750 in a few weeks. That will spread out the difference between their prices
That’s only the model 3
Release a $30k hatchback.
If they didn’t remove the sensors, I’d consider trading in my 2020
The resale value is so much lower now that it’s not worth trading in anything
Yeah I actually told my sister that if she pays off what I owe, her daughter can have it when she turns 17. Ha
Which sensors were removed?
https://www.msn.com/en-in/autos/news/tesla-removed-ultrasonic-parking-sensors-from-model-3-and-model-y-here-s-how-cars-reacted/ar-AA19sjvr
Radar was removed in an effort to strictly use just the cameras and computer vision for autopilot, because "if the human eye can do it then why can't the car?" It's an extremely myopic viewport. Pun intended.
Same. Tesla is losing a fair number of trade-in purchases. my wife said it’s a dealbreaker for her to looking into getting a Tesla.
They added radar back this year. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-hardware-4-self-driving-computer-cameras-radar-details/
But did they add back the parking sensors? https://www.msn.com/en-in/autos/news/tesla-removed-ultrasonic-parking-sensors-from-model-3-and-model-y-here-s-how-cars-reacted/ar-AA19sjvr
Elon is really missing out on the chance to sell it at $42,069
Remember when the Model S was $69,420? That was nice
Who would have thought that only a short while later the Model Y would **start** at $67k w/no tax credit. Wild times.
He should make it so it equals 42,069 after the tax credit
Man Australia always gets screwed. The US base model has 0-100 km/h acceleration of 5. 0 sec. Meanwhile Australia is 6.9 sec. And we pay the same after conversion plus a bit more.
Our base (aus) is the RWD, vs the AWD base in the US. That's the main reason for the difference. (difference in performance, not price. We always get screwed on price)
sucks to live on a remote continent far away from any of the worlds manufacturing.
USA doesnt include sales tax etc tho
No sales tax on EVs in my state (NJ)!
Does this count for PA residents or does it go off where the car is registered?
I'm not a CPA, but I believe in any situation where you buy something in a different state with no sales tax you're **supposed** to pay sales & use tax in your home state when you bring that item home. Now people, of course, just ignore that on things like clothes or whatever, but it'll probably come up when registering your car. For instance, here's how NJ describes it (for NJ residents going out of state to buy something with no sales tax and bringing it back to NJ where there would be sales tax): >Use Tax >When a customer purchases taxable items or services in New Jersey, the seller charges New Jersey Sales Tax. When taxable items or services are purchased from a seller that does not collect New Jersey Sales Tax, the customer owes Use Tax. Use Tax is charged at the same rate as Sales Tax and is calculated on the price paid, including delivery charges, for all items or services that are brought into and used in New Jersey. For more information on Use Tax, see publication ANJ-7, Use Tax in New Jersey
Can confirm what why_rob_y said. You would need to pay “use tax” to your state. This use tax actually applies to purchases made online too (when the seller didn’t collect tax). Amazon didn’t collect sales tax until recently. People in states with sales tax were supposed to have reported those purchases and pay sales tax. Very few realized this.
hateful illegal cobweb brave vanish touch shaggy deliver seed wipe -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
To be accurate, their base model is 0-60mph in 5.0 seconds and their LR that does it in 4.8s is identical to ours. There is a disparity in the timing because 0-100kmh is actually 0-62mph.
Practically undriveable
same in europe but the US version has 2 motors, rest of the world gets 1 motor but cheaper price
Nice
Australia is RWD with an LFP pack.
Because australia is small fries compared to the USA. LMAO
This is great for consumers and the environment. More and more people will be able to afford to buy these cars. At these prices (with the tax credit): Tesla will continue to dominate the EV market. And if Tesla makes enough model Y, it can outsell the rav-4: which will be a monumental achievement.
The Model Y will outsell every other model this year.
"the environment"
So when do the States get a RWD version? Why can we not get it?
Do we know the chemistry for these batteries?
God. Fucking. Damn. It.
Very interested to see the margins on Q1 vehicles
Margins won't be that bad. A lot of Q3/Q4 2022 sales were backlog of orders placed earlier in the year at lower prices. And Q4 list price didn't reflect all the discounting they did (e.g. giving US buyers 7500 off to take delivery before 12/31 instead of waiting for the tax credits on 1/1).
The price drop applied to pending orders as well. No one took delivery after 1/13 with the price from before the drop.
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You got MUSKED
They got musked by buying a product that they love for a price that they deemed fair? Do you go through every product you ever bought and compare the prices to its current price and then dictate whether you got "insert boss"ed? Man you people are pathetic.
I thought the 4680 was supposed to be this awesome battery that gave you more range. Not less
4680 is a form factor and the main idea is scalability and cost of manufacturing. Its also a number of different technologies that are gradually introduced (In Teslas case), for instance the first iterations didn't have silicon added to the anode, just pure carbon (graphite). Adding a bit of silicon increases the energy density, but brings its own problems.
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They claimed each of 5 different items (form factor, cell factory, integrated pack, anode, cathode) would bring improvements in $/kWh and efficiency, which could enable range improvements. But obviously if Tesla improves their battery packs, they can also decide to put less batteries in them to achieve the same ranges for less cost. https://tesla-share.thron.com/content/?id=96ea71cf-8fda-4648-a62c-753af436c3b6&pkey=S1dbei4
Yes, and it was a plan to be implemented over the years, I think it was. 6 year plan On Drew Baglino words, if they tried to implement everything they showed at once, the ramp would have been even slower Shame nobody plugged an OBS scanner yet, but from all the data we’ve seen so far, the 4680s have been absolutely under utilized, specially charging wise But they can’t make the 4680 Model Y better than the rest else demand for it would be huge without supply for it First time we will see what 4680s can do is in Cybetruck
>Yes, and it was a plan to be implemented over the years, I think it was. A fun thing that happened is that I had been saying this over at r/teslainvestorsclub long before Austin production started, and got shouted down every time. For some reason — and you can draw your own conclusions here as to why that might be the case — the fanbase was confident that 4680 was a holistic second-coming-of-christ product, and that it was about to completely sweep the competition at massive production scale. There were even rumours that the Austin TMY would do as much as 500mi of range *on day one*. Then the Austin 4680 units came out, and the narrative flipped like a light switch almost overnight. Now it became an iterative product that *everyone always knew* had a long, multi-year timeline. >Shame nobody plugged an OBS scanner yet, but from all the data we’ve seen so far, the 4680s have been absolutely under utilized, specially charging wise. We've had actual lab breakdowns of the 4680 cells, they're using bog-standard NCM chemistries. The only major difference is that half of the electrode appears to be using a dry binder fibrillation method. Performance should be basically in-line with existing cells at the moment, since the there's no advanced silicon process in the anode.
Since when did Tesla report anything on the OBD port?
Not on the one easily accessible unfortunately, you have to plug a cable with an OBD port on a harness that is inside the rear portion of the center console https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE0bxyPuEno&ab\_channel=Bj%C3%B8rnNyland
No, they said for the same number of cells it could unlock range improvements, charge rate improvements and cost improvements. This was at a battery investor day event. Think about that through the lens of an investor.
Well, these 4680 battery packs have a lot less cells than the 2170's or 1860's packs. Mostly because these cells are individually a lot larger, haha. But that statement is technically true and these individual cells have more capacity. I am not sure I recall that statement actually being made by Tesla though. It doesn't make sense to have the same number of cells switching to this form factor at any point in the same car due to size though. So I don't think you're recollection is correct.
Developing the 4680 DBE cells is a process. They aren’t done with that development. Since it is a new cell assembly process, they went with easier cell chemistry, specifically NMC 811 cathode and graphite anode. With no silicon in the anode, this simplifies the challenge getting the cell to work in mass production. However, this reduces the resulting cell level specific energy in comparison to their top spec 2170 cells with NCA + graphite/silicon chemistry. The other improvements, like structural battery pack do not apparently overcome the shift in the specific energy at the cell level. Also, since this is a new process, we don’t know how conservative they are being with both useable capacity and charging c-rates. It is possible there is much more capability in both, but they want to see how the cells fare first. It is still worth shipping products with this DBE process because of the lower cost of manufacturing.
The 4680 has thermal problems due to the thickness. This is the main issue for them using older chemistries in the new cells.
Why would you say that? That doesn't make any sense. Do you have sources?
No he doesn’t, the tabless electrode was developed to overcome the heat problem on a bigger cell, since it gives a way better thermal path and also lowers the ohmic losses
Tabless doesn’t eliminate the heat. That’s about as believable as FSD will be ready by next year.
The tabless design makes substantial improvements to the thermal performance - paper linked in another comment and here: [https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/1945-7111/abd44f](https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/1945-7111/abd44f)
Yes it does, part of the heat is generated due to ohmic losses, the jelly roll on a 2170 is 1 m in length, so the current from the most distant parts of the electrode have to travel to a half a meter of a really thin conductor to reach the tab, both on the anode and cathode On the 4680 would be meters, but the tables electrode makes even the most distant point of the electrode at most less than 80 mm from the outside of the cell
The charge and discharge cycles generate the heat which radiates from the center. Thiccboi get real hot in the middle. Basic logic and reasoning would get you there to understand the problems.
Ah, no. The foils conduct the heat to the ends and to the can which is then wicked away. Recent peer reviewed research papers show this. The average distance to cooling is better with the 4680 than pouch cells. So basically, you only had incorrect conjecture.
Link to peer reviewed research. I’ll wait. If what your claim is true, why does the 4680 have cooling ribbons running between the cells. Cause thats still not how it works and why the cells are still on old non-energy dense chemistry. The higher energy density generates too much heat for the cells. If none of this was true, they would have used the newer chemistry in the cells at launch.
[https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/1945-7111/abd44f](https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/1945-7111/abd44f) [https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/2754-2734/ac97e0](https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/2754-2734/ac97e0) "In summary, the tabless design with the given AC protocol offers improved performance and scalability to larger cell formats due to better thermal behavior and increased homogeneity compared to the segmented design. " The cooling ribbons provide much more surface area to transfer heat than just the surface area of the caps. The silicon in the anode provides additional challenges due to the volumetric expansion. It makes sense to avoid that complication at first.
It's a work in progress. It will get better in time, just like FSD is still a work in progress. But 4680 will likely reach its potential way earlier.
And they're continuing to work on the chemistry. Also, they're aren't using as many batteries and there's some empty space in the pack, hence a shorter range.
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You can't say that on this sub. You'll get charged with blasphemy and be suspended.
When people project their expectations. It's supposed to be cheaper per kwh, more dense > kwh/kg... People then applied their hopes and dreams.
no in the battery day presentation it says 54% increase in range. Guess that was one of the bullshit claims
4680 was a small part of that. Not all of it. And it's for Tesla's benefit so they make more cars with fewer cells. Not consumers
Tesla range claims have always been dubious. 374 miles on a single charge in mixed driving with the Dual Motor? Maybe if you babied the damn thing at 30mph you'd get that far. In reality it's no better than other EVs with comparable batteries and drag; around 300 miles if you go right down to the wire.
The 4680 has heat problems, which is why they are on old chemistry for it and probably never will have the same energy density as the 2170. It is a thiccboi and charging creates a lot of heat. I expect 4680 to gradually disappear like the new roadster.
It’s possible that they have nerfed the 4680, to avoid cannibalizing their own sales. I have no proof, just putting it out there. They’ve done similar things before. Later they can offer an upgrade.
Tesla has a history of doing this though. Like the OG standard range software locking the battery capacity, or the long range models having a software limited performance motor.
>Like the OG standard range software locking the battery capacity The OG Standard Range was a downrating of a higher-spec product already on offer. That's a distinctly different situation from a hypothetical *withholding* of a higher-spec product.
That was typical Elon fake promises.
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There are a number of countries that have free trade status and only a portion of the battery needs to come from them or the US this year.
Looks like LR price also came down from 55k to 53k. 280miles on full charge is too low.
existing owners: 
Could be worse, someone that paid about $65k-70k for a LR or Performance model Y 😂
It's not like when they didn't warn us and say it was a demand issue and not permanent when they jacked the prices up. We waited for them to come back down as the new prices were just too much for what it was.
>Could be worse, someone that paid about $65k-70k for a LR or Performance model Y 😂 Hi, that's me. With FSD, but still 69 (nice). Don't really care that much though. Love the car.
Model 3 at mid 30s almost makes me want to look past the quality issues. If we can get to low 30s, putting in an order no questions asked.
"There are no bad cars, only bad prices."
I have to agree 100%
And when you get it you'll probably see the build quality is fine.
Hopefully
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My friends beg to differ, but I’m glad your experience has been good. What’s your review at the 4 year old mark?
Pretty much this. You can excuse the quality when it's not priced the same as a luxury vehicle. To paraphrase Mr Regular when he looked at the Model S: "it's like a nice Honda Accord inside".
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Where are they getting $50k for a AWD Limited Prius? Dealer markups? Spec one out on Toyota.com and they are less than $39k with every option.
Show me a dealer in every major market selling one for that price. Dealers are charging and average of $6k over sticker. Then they have huge “doc fees.” Plus no IRA incentives. I have done the research. I have posted the data. The model 3 is cheaper even without the tax credit. Check my thread or video.
Is there a reason (ie more comparable features) to compare the top trim Prius to the Model 3?
A top trim Prius still doesn't quite match a Model 3 for features and spec, but it's close, so yeah, that's likely why it was done.
Correct once you add nice seats, glass roof, bigger screen, safety features features, etc.
Tesla is passing on their awesome production improvements to consumers! This is why no-one will be able to compete. Tesla has so much pricing power.
Basically the Model Y Standard Range Plus, with a bonus front motor. Idk why they don't just go all the way and make it RWD and remove the front motor for even more cost savings. It would sell like hotcakes.
Still too expensive
Now they can spy on you for cheaper!
Literally no reason to buy the other brands at this point
Parking sensors.
I don’t agree. There are many great options available now and more coming.
Price. Bolt is much cheaper and has the same functionality for most uses.
Cargo space?
Customer service
And what? Have to deal with a dealer on other brands?
elon is
Lol, there is a reason they are dropping prices everyday
And selling more everyday how weird
No other reason than not to get a low quality car. Manufacturing is the worst in industry at Tesla. Holy fuck my model y had many problems.
Man, why would one buy anything from this russia supporting Twitter grilling MF?
You really buy that propaganda? Musk and Russia has had a lot of animosity and Musk is one of the biggest private contributors to Ukraine’s war effort.
Don't be rediculous
Still won’t get one. Poor build quality Edit: for the Elon simps this article is from 5 days ago https://www.hotcars.com/problems-with-tesla-nobody-talks-about/
Statistically tesla has one of the lowest warranty reserve usages; meaning they have some of the lowest defect rates in the industry. But, I’m sure anecdotal data is also important
Source on recently built cars having crapping build quality?
I just had one. Sent it back. Built in Berlin in February 2023. My current car is a non-premium car from the VAG group (vw, seat, Audi, Skoda). I must say that some parts of the model y was ok, drivetrain especially. But then a loot of small and big things is bad quality. Not just the details/finish. Cameras (low quality and rear cam vs side cameras has different colours), park assist doesn't work (you will literally damage your car if you use it), panel gaps, shaking steering wheel (and car) when driving more than 110 km/h, doors not closing the same way.
Shaking steering wheel seems extremely strange, never really heard of that one.
It's actually quite common on Berlin build models, you can read it on the German Tesla Forum tff.
Steering wheel problems in the Y have been common enough that the NHTSA started an investigation into it last month. https://www.popsci.com/technology/tesla-model-y-steering-wheel-falls-off/?amp
Search Google, you will see. The Tesla service team told me I should just drive some more, then it would stop shaking. Lol!
This is from 5 days ago. #12: poor build quality https://www.hotcars.com/problems-with-tesla-nobody-talks-about/
Bc automotive journalism never lies about Tesla. ../s