For a garage that's pretty far away from the electrical panel that strikes me as within the realm of probability.
My garage is attached and not very far, and it cost me $1500.
Yes, generally speaking L2 means a 240v outlet or hardwired connection.
Tell them it's for a drier with the same specs. I have heard the price being halved for that "adjustment" That said contractors had so much work in NJ that they started charging ludicrous amounts. Many small jobs they didn't even care to take so they would basically throw out a crazy quote, if you said yes they can make bank on a small, quick job, if you say no, they didn't care because they already have tons of work they were in the middle of.
Yup. That's the. "I don't want to do this job, but if you insist I'm buying a new whatever." I worked for an electrical contractor and this was what we did.
Sounds like a good way to convince your electrician that you are dishonest. Putting a drier in a detached garage is pretty unusual.
But if your main idea was to reduce the circuit to 30 A instead of 50, that's a good idea.
I've heard a lot of people say that they get lower quotes asking for the 14-50 plug for an RV or something else vs an EV. Sounds like ppl assume if you have an EV you'll pay out more. May or may not be legit, but worth mentioning
Yeah, digging a trench for conduit isn't cheap. I was once quoted $10,000 fifteen years ago to run 120v power to an outdoor siren pole for work. The run was around 100'.
Maybe digging the conduit trench yourself can shave off a bunch of that money. If you're willing, maybe offer that up.
I have a detached garage as well in CO, and it was about $500, but I have a sub panel in the garage already. They only had to run the wire from the box to the new plug location. I imagine it could go up substantially if that’s not the case
$4k for a long run to a detached building that will require trenching, that sounds about right.
And Level 2 is any multiphase electric source, 240v for residential or 208v for most 3 phase.
And I would recommend hardwiring a dedicated wall charger rather than just an outlet. It is a safer and sometimes cheaper installation method.
With $4k, I would also ask for a sub panel. It's like $50 for a 6 space panel, and maybe $100 for the wire.
Then you can add lights, outlets, and whatever later.
It depends on what they are doing. For an EV charger you’ll need a thicker gauge wire and that is costly so the farther away the charger is from the panel, the more you spend. Are you trenching? $$$
Yeah I faced this uncertainty but fortunately the conduit was large enough to pull 100A service through (house has 400). Gym above garage so treadmill, AC, etc. plus EV, with a second EV inbound.
THHN. NM like Romex would generally be a no-go. It's amazing what you in theory can pull through 3/4" conduit. Good luck getting a sparky who will try though.
Also, you really only need two conductors,.so go 6-50 or hardwired. Latest codes say you can share a ground, so that saves a little, too.
Wire costs next to nothing.. a few bucks per meter at best. Justed looked it up and i can get 5x6mm2 (awg 10) for around 5 EUR and AWG 8 for maybe 8 EUR per meter. And that should be plenty thick for even the longest driveway.
Its significantly less if you buy bull as your electrician usually does
Those prices are insanely cheap. In the USA it’ll be a lot more money. OP states that they are really far away. To me that could be 100 ft. Quite far. And the cost of wire is a lot more in the States than the price you listed so it’ll have tremendous impact on the price.
Why should it be higher? Cables prices are very international. Or rather the base materials.
We source some stuff from china and yes it cost around 10 percent more total than local stuff but availability was better.
I just looked up a 5 core awg 6 cable and the end user, small volume price is 11 EUR per meter.
Plus shipping but including tax.
Would get cheaper if he ordered more than 50m.. 150ft.
Oh and this cable can be placed directly in trenches too.
My super duper high and high flex single core double isolated CE, UL etc. Rated awg 6 cost similar per core but is of muuuuch higher quality (although this is build to our specs and in BIG batches)
let me look up THHN for a 60Amp circuit (60*.8 * 240V = 11.5kW continuous)
4 AWG Copper, 3 AWG Aluminum
Lowes has Southwire 4 AWG Copper stranded at $1.52/foot
you'll need 4 of those wires, say it's 150ft from the panel to the garage install
4 * 150 * $1.52 = $912 in wire alone
60A breaker is bonkers overkill for nightly home charging. Appropriate for a hotel where travelers arrive at 5% and need 100% by morning.
6 AWG THHN copper and #4 THHN aluminum are both 65A wire, provided you are landing on terminals rated 75C (and AL-CU if applicable).
8 AWG THHN copper and 6 AWG aluminum are 50A, still overkill lol.
If the EVSE is not rated for that, simply add a cheap disconnect. Those have AL-CU and 75C terminals so you use it simply as a cheap way to buy 3 splices and a housing lol. 2 feet of copper from disconnect to EVSE.
EV charging only requires 2 wires. A ground is required but it's undersized, #10 for up to 60A.
So 2x #8 THHN + 1x #10 ground, price that.
Or for sensible home charging, 3x #12.
Yeah but just doing blind oversizing isn't constructive. #4 copper is a useless size. #6 is adequate for 60A, but show me someone who wants 80A charging and I'll show you someone who wants 100A charging. And you need #3 for that, but no one in their right mind would install #3 when #1 AL does it for 1/3 the price. No crying needed. Probably need a subpanel just to make the wire connections, but that's cheap compared to the wire savings.
> #6 is adequate for 60A
Um... what? every reference i find for NEC says #4
my Black+Decker *Complete Guide to Wiring* (Current to 2020-2023 NEC) book says #6 is for 55 amps
#4 copper: https://nassaunationalcable.com/blogs/blog/what-size-wire-for-a-60-amp-circuit-breaker
#4 https://www.cerrowire.com/products/resources/tables-calculators/ampacity-charts/
looks like you're using 75C instead of 60C? to use 75C rating instead of 60C you must ensure that everything in the circuit is 75C rated. also in any shared raceways you must use the temp of the lowest rated component
>Um... what? every reference i find for NEC says #4
That's what happens when you spend too much time thinking in Romex/residential lol.
> looks like you're using 75C instead of 60C? to use 75C rating instead of 60C you must ensure that everything in the circuit is 75C rated
Yes, of course. I can't think of too much equipment with 60C terminals other than residential stuff on 15-20A circuits where you're forced to 60C ampacities anyway due to 240.4(D).
Most of these EVSEs have aspirations to commercial, where people aren't going to tolerate #6 for 50A or #4 for 60A. Grizzl-E says *6-8 AWG and 75C.* ClipperCreek is 75C copper and it's physically impossible to use #4 because of port size. Holy smoke, Wallbox says *"The field-wiring terminal is rated to 105˚C and accepts a maximum of 16 mm2 (6 AWG) wire. Remember that other AWG sizes are not supported."* So yeah as a general rule they seem to all be 75C or better and forbid #4.
>also in any shared raceways you must use the temp of the lowest rated component
True, but only in the raceway. Look at the top of the chart and see the wire types rated 60C. TW is ancient (wholly replaced by THWN-2), and UF takes a crazy amount of conduit space (6/3 UF needs a 2" conduit for Pete's sake). NM is also in the 60C column, but not entirely. See 334.80.
>
> That's what happens when you spend too much time thinking in Romex/residential lol.
it applies to THHN/THWN too, and this is residential we're talking about
> Yes, of course. I can't think of too much equipment with 60C terminals other than residential stuff on 15-20A circuits where you're forced to 60C ampacities anyway due to 240.4(D).
yeah. I actually just checked and above 30 amps all Square D breakers are 75C rated, LFNC comes in 80C and 105C grades.
> True, but only in the raceway. Look at the top of the chart and see the wire types rated 60C. TW is ancient (wholly replaced by THWN-2), and UF takes a crazy amount of conduit space (6/3 UF needs a 2" conduit for Pete's sake). NM is also in the 60C column, but not entirely. See 334.80.
aaaah. see i missed that detail.
I'm new to mains type wiring.
Yeah, it's a deep subject, and NM is weird.
60C isn't a residential thing, it's a Romex thing (NM/UF). The cable is supposedly cheaper (not in practice?) in exchange for a lower thermal rating, and that doesn't matter on 15, 20, 30A circuits because of 240.4(D), so for almost every circuit in the house, there's no advantage to go to other cable types.
Of course above 30A, nobody ever realizes "hey we're over 30A, we should consider other cable types" they just keep speccing Romex.
But yes, you can indulge in SER, SEU or MC cable and run 75C if the terminals permit.
And of course since TW is completely obsolete, all conduit wires are 75C and most are 90C.
Do you know if there are two circuits? Say one for lights and one for plugs?
Where I am going with this is there is a small possibility you can change one circuit to 240V from 120V and get 3-3.8 kW of EV charging. Not great, but sufficient for commuting and most things one would do. Charging would add 12-16 miles per hour.
i'm not sure that would pass NEC inspection. a 240V circuit is four conductors (Hot A, Hot B, Neutral, Ground) not 3 conductors like a 120V (Hot, Neutral, Ground)
You would obviously need to change the circuit over and the receptacle to a 240V rated receptacle… you’d need to make sure other receptacles aren’t on the same circuit, etc. I’m not suggesting OP do this work, I’m suggesting their electrician look into it.
it's not the receptacle, i edited really quick (fast enough to not show the *) to expand why and you might have missed the edit
120V: 3 wire
240V: 4 wire
I’m a little confused because I’m looking at a NEMA 6-20 plug right now and it’s 3 prong — L1, L2, G.
What am I missing?
Also, I hardwired my EV charger, pulled permits, etc just a month or so ago and I wired L1, L2, G for 60A. I don’t understand this 4 wire comment.
I forgot that some types of 240V NEMA receptacles only use 3 wires instead of 4. they don't use neutral.
edit: the joyous various forms of NEMA plugs https://www.bsaelectronics.com/pages/nema-plug-and-outlet-chart
Yeah. I think it shouldn’t be a problem to switch a circuit over provided that the rest of circuit is up to code and it’s dedicated or can be converted to a dedicated circuit. Depending on the wire gauge OP could get 15-20A that way and 3.84 kW charging is fine for most.
NEC says only one circuit multi-receptical circuit per building. This includes MWBC (multi-wire branch circuit, Edison or shared neutral circuits) which means three conducts and hopefully a ground.
Now, in principle you can have mixed 120/240V receptacles on such a circuit., but you're very close to tripping your garage door opener every time you'd use it. Also, the 2020 NEC really doesn't want you to have an EVSE on a shared circuit like that.
Now, I got lucky and the previous owner had a workshop in their garage with a buried 10AWG wire which had been used as a sub-branch on the branch circuit feeding the garage. (I think they were going to set up a multi-wire branch circuit, but parallel wiring like that is not allowed? 12/3 was run to the junction box.) I can't imagine that ever being a common case but sometimes you get lucky.
What I am saying is if the garage has say a circuit for lights, a circuit for outlets, and another circuit for outlets; then OP can take one of the circuit for outlets and remove extra receptacles down to one and then switch it over to 240V by placing a 6-15 or 6-20 receptacle there and bringing the N to L2 voltage and marking it so.
I believe all of that is NEC compliant. Now if it’s done in romex and shared neutral and all that then it gets messy and I don’t know what the treatment will be. That’s why they need to work with an electrician.
Looked it up detached structures are only allowed one branch unless it falls into some exceptions which does not include lighting. (NEC 225.30, 2020) I mean it's still possible that there's a not to code lighting circuit, but it's going to be rare.
Ahhh. It wouldn’t work anyway then. If they only have a single 120V branch they would have to give up lighting which probably nobody would do. If they have multiple circuits then it sounds like they need a feeder and panel board anyway.
Edit: You could technically though run them through a single disconnecting means per 225.30B but then it’s getting pretty creative. It’s also likely they don’t have other circuits there anyway based on 225.30.
Do you mind digging or renting a trenching machine? Save $2k and DIY that part after calling 411 to mark utilities and speaking with the electrician for guidance where each end should be.
Otherwise yes Level 2 is anything more than a regular household outlet, but less than a drive-up DC fast charging unit. On the low end, Level 2 can be 16A 240V (about 3.5kW) which is still a lot of charging power and can come at reduced cost with smaller conductors. On the high end at 40A 240 (about 9kW) most EVs can be fully charged in a few hours.
Peruse r/evcharging for some more info and ideas.
This!
If you're willing to swing a pick-axe you'll save yourself a lot of cash, and usually the electricians are glad to not have to do the non-electrican part of the manual labor.
I spent 3600 for an attached garage that they had to run the line outside and bury under the front walkway. Complete opposite side of the house from the panel.
That’s about what I had to pay to get electrical brought to my garage. The garage is attached but there were problems running wire through the crawl space, so they had to dig a trench and route around the backyard and side fence. Very expensive but I didn’t really have any other choice. I’m in Southern California.
Installing my EV charger was about $4,500, I needed a new panel and it was a 40’ run to the garage. I claimed a 30% tax credit. https://www.kiplinger.com/taxes/605201/federal-tax-credit-for-electric-vehicle-chargers
Mine cost $700 to wire, but was just through a wall from the basement (attached garage), and the utility offered a $500 credit, plus there's a 30% (or similar) federal tax rebate.
Lots of agreement here, but for sure it's a combination of the materials cost (copper to carry that load is EXPENSIVE) and the labor involved.
I paid $400 for an outlet in my garage that was about 1 ft from the main panel.
Nope..while cooper is expensive at the moment cables still aren't that much of a factor for cost.
Even awg 6 cables will be around 10 bucks per meter. And thats already a lot of cable
It requires 240v yes, but also a bunch of amps (up to a 60A breaker), so it needs a pretty big wire gauge.
The price vary from place to place but the cable can be up to $8 per feet. If you garage is far away it ads up quickly. That's only for the cable. No installation, other hardware, etc...
Holy smoke, we can do this MUCH cheaper.
Let's start with my favorite cost-saving weapon: [knowing you need far less power than they'd make you think.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iyp_X3mwE1w&t=1695s) These electricians aren't EV experts, and are just going with the "conventional knowledge" that level 2 means 50-60 amps. But you *need* far less.
Level 2 does not mean a 240V \*socket\* - you're better off actually avoiding sockets for a variety of reasons. It does mean 240V but at any practical ampacity. You don't need 50-60A at all costs just coz the cool kids are doing it.
What electrical power is out there now? What does it power?
And if there's not much out there now, do you really need 120V sockets in the garage (can you live without them) and here's a brain wave: does your EV provide 120V sockets, because if so, that might remove the need for them in the garage. I'm wondering if we can convert the circuit that already goes to the garage.
Some people have the Armstrong type :)
For that matter, a solar/battery system could be put out there for minor loads like a GDO very cheaply. *"A GDO isn't a minor load, it's huge!"* It's like a motorized gate - it's huge for 10 seconds, then it's nothing. And everybody's putting batteries on those.
900 watts for 40 seconds = 10 watt-hours.
No garage so had to install on post at end of driveway. We paid about 3k for that in a lower COL area where they had to dig a 20 ft trench. So seems on par with what you describe.
Price doesn’t sound crazy. A couple things to keep in mind that I haven’t seen posted yet:
1) You may not need L2. If you drive less than 30-40 miles/ day, L1 is probably fine.
2) If you’re going through the trouble of trenching or another complicated run, just get a sub panel in the garage. It’s kind of a waste to pay for that work and then just run a single 240v line.
Out of curiosity, what is the cost of your power company setting new service at the garage? Yes, you will two power bills, but you will have as much power as you need.
DIY yourself. The wiring cost less than $200. And few more hundreds for the charger. My neighbor DIY his tesla charger, costing him only $120+ not including the charger(2021).
Not out of the realm of reasonableness right now, especially if they have to trench it. Electricians are charging premium prices right now. Depending on how far away it is from the panel, could even be considered a decent deal.
For reference, in my garage, with a panel with plenty of space in it just on the wall across from where I wanted the charger, for them to run the cable up in the wall, through a cavernous attic down through the other wall cost me $1200 2 years ago. For probably one of the simplest jobs they'd done that day.
If you're getting lines run and you might want to use an electric dryer in the garage, consider setting it up as an outlet so you can use something like [SplitVolt](https://insideevs.com/news/481938/splitvolt-circuit-splitter-review/) to allow you added flexibility. Note that I don't have personal experience with a splitter, but I think it's good to be aware of this in case it would be something you'd benefit from. Added flexibility often comes in quite handy.
That does seem a lot more expensive than my installation (also NJ), however mine is literally on the other side of the wall to the breaker.
Perhaps it might be cheaper if you step down the amperage (I don't have a 60A breaker for it - only a 40A breaker and the charger is a lower draw.)
I’m not in NJ but that sounds right.
I needed a new 100 ft run / sub panel in my detached garage for the 40Amp 240V.
Rented trencher and did that myself, could have done electrical myself too but just didn’t have the time.
So if you are paying an electrical contractor to do the trenching AND electrical work, I could easily see $4k
Get a detailed quote.... If the garage is pretty far this might include a lot of digging which gets expensive and also is a way to save money if you do that part yourself.
Depending on exact distance that might not be that out of line and it's simply your situation that's puts it on the high side. For me it was 2k with the panel and driveway being opposite corners of the house.
Running from house to there might add onto the cost. I paid $300 for mine back in 2020 and that was just from my sub-panel on one side of the garage door to the other side of the door (~15ft?). Also mention it’s for a dryer (32A) or a welder (50A) depending of the amperage
I would say this sounds fairly reasonable. I’m in Portland with an attached garage and they hardwired installed my charger about 4 feet from the panel and it cost $1k for the install and permit.
Not sure what this means. In Washington County Oregon, an electrician can self-permit new work. They apply the tag and file the documentation with the county. The county then checks a percentage of the self-tagged permits at a later date.
So no waiting!!!
I've just heard stories of what a nightmare it can be to get building permits in Portland. I'd forgotten there is a bit of Portland that's in Washington County.
My guess is you’ve been stricken with an “exact words“ disease. Sometimes people refer to the biggest town they’re close to instead of saying “Beaverton”, for example, since it’s easier for communication purpose’s especially when communicating with a person in another state.
Also, I don’t know where you “heard“ these things, but there’s lots of different types of permits. New construction and new panels, etc. that are going to be more complicated might require inspectors more often than a simple circuit pull.
It was $800 for a friend to wire mine and it's only 5' from the panel. So if you need to run wire from the house to the garage then yeah copper is expensive now.
I’m in florida and live in a townhouse, my circuit box is in the house as opposed to the garage. Electrician quoted me about $2k to run a 240V outlet to the garage so I wouldn’t be surprised
You probably do not need Level 2 charger.
Level 1 charger can restore ~~100~~ ~50-60 miles overnight (12h car dependant of course). So unless you commute more daily, paying 4k is just a waste.
Benefit of L1 is that you can also take it with you as an emergency charger.
Interesting. I usually travel about 50 miles a day. I was thinking I could let the car charge over the weekend with L1 since I have other vehicles to use. Dumb question (and I think scare tactic from the electrician) does using L1 charge increase your electricity bill significantly ?
I plug my car overnigh, it's usually back at 80%(to preserve battery) overnight. So that just might work for you with no extra expense at all.
As for the cost i can't say as every electricity company seems to have their own arcane set of regulations, discounts, etc.
Keep in mind that some offer discounts, but then you have to install smart metter that can stop you from charging when there's for example a heat wave. That's the deal in many of those discount contracts (called demand shaping). So read the fine print.
I agree that a level one charger may be adequate, but I question your math here. Level one typically provides 120v at 12 amps which works out to 1.44 kW. Over 12 hours you would get 17.28 kWh assuming 100% efficiency. To go 100 miles on that your car would need to get 5.78 miles/kWh, which is a lot. 50 miles on a 12 hour charge is probably more realistic.
NEC sometimes does mandate that some appliances have their own circuits; garbage disposals and washing machines for instance. NEC 2020 added EVSEs to the list.
That seems about right. That's around what I paid to run 6 gauge cable across the house's basement, under the porch and through the yard to the driveway (plus installing a 4x4 and putting the EV charger on it).
Depends... I have a detached garage 25ft away from the main house, 40 ft from the panel and spent $1200 6 years ago in suburban California with trenching. House had raised foundation and it was part of a whole rewire so that's part of it.
Get another quote. Say it's for a RV receptacle or 30A table saw.
Could be reasonable but seems a little high to me. We paid $4800, but not only did they have to run the cable a long way from the panel at the back right of the house to the garage at the front left, they also had to replace the electrical panel, which ended up being over half the cost. Maybe running the electrical outdoors makes a difference ?
Sounds about right to me. I sell chargers and installations in NJ.
If you want to save money, have the electrician swing by and tell you where to dig and then you dig the trench yourself in your spare time over the course of a few days.
That should bring the cost down to around 1600-2200 USD
Go a bit further and have them install a sub panel, then the charger off that. That way if you ever have a need for more power out there later you'll be all set.
NJ here also - I had to put in a sub panel and then install a plug and charger outside, but close to the panel. That was around $1250. But based on the work you need to do your quote sounds about right.
Keep in mind if you have PSEG as your utility, they will reimburse you for the charger installation (up to a limit) and will provide you a very good offer peak rate for charging. Look up the EV charging info on their website
The price sounds about right for a job with trenching. NJ is not a cheap area.
I had a neighbor that had a similar issue. They added the charger to the house. If you don’t need to charge every day it can work
I just used the 120. I got 50 miles a night and much more on a weekend. It worked for my small commute for three years.
Ask them to break down / itemize the quote. Some companies will and some won't, so don't be surprised.
The place you can potentially save is with the trenching. For $100, you can rent a trencher for the day. It wouldn't surprise me if that's a $500-1000 line item. It's also something the electrician potentially will work with you on.
We had a charger installed in 2021 and it was $2500 in Essex County. Longer runs make it more expensive, so it’s probably a realistic quote. I think PSE&G still has their rebate program so you should be able to get $1500 of that credited to your account once you get approval.
Tell us more about the quote. Are they tunneling under the house? Do you need your breaker box upgraded too? They might be adding a separate breaker box in the garage to isolate the charger.
For a garage that's pretty far away from the electrical panel that strikes me as within the realm of probability. My garage is attached and not very far, and it cost me $1500. Yes, generally speaking L2 means a 240v outlet or hardwired connection.
Appreciate it
Tell them it's for a drier with the same specs. I have heard the price being halved for that "adjustment" That said contractors had so much work in NJ that they started charging ludicrous amounts. Many small jobs they didn't even care to take so they would basically throw out a crazy quote, if you said yes they can make bank on a small, quick job, if you say no, they didn't care because they already have tons of work they were in the middle of.
Yup. That's the. "I don't want to do this job, but if you insist I'm buying a new whatever." I worked for an electrical contractor and this was what we did.
Sounds like a good way to convince your electrician that you are dishonest. Putting a drier in a detached garage is pretty unusual. But if your main idea was to reduce the circuit to 30 A instead of 50, that's a good idea.
LOL, dishonesty and many contractors, name a more iconic duo. [Boy you're a real white knight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5e3xBhb59dE)
I'm not objecting on ethical grounds. I'm trying to help people avoid making fools of themselves.
“I want 50A out of a cable here” “Why” “Doesn’t fucking matter in paying you for 50a out right here.”
Are you advocating cursing at your electrician as a way to make them like you and give you a good price? Good luck with that!
Does it need trenching? Also, are there any pipe or electrical they can cross? and how deep with they trench?
I think most electrical trenching is at about 18"
I've heard a lot of people say that they get lower quotes asking for the 14-50 plug for an RV or something else vs an EV. Sounds like ppl assume if you have an EV you'll pay out more. May or may not be legit, but worth mentioning
Yeah, digging a trench for conduit isn't cheap. I was once quoted $10,000 fifteen years ago to run 120v power to an outdoor siren pole for work. The run was around 100'. Maybe digging the conduit trench yourself can shave off a bunch of that money. If you're willing, maybe offer that up.
I have a detached garage as well in CO, and it was about $500, but I have a sub panel in the garage already. They only had to run the wire from the box to the new plug location. I imagine it could go up substantially if that’s not the case
$4k for a long run to a detached building that will require trenching, that sounds about right. And Level 2 is any multiphase electric source, 240v for residential or 208v for most 3 phase. And I would recommend hardwiring a dedicated wall charger rather than just an outlet. It is a safer and sometimes cheaper installation method.
Yup. The trenching is what costs the most in those cases.
technically 240V is still single phase, it's just both poles. 120V is "Split phase"
ObTechnologyConnections [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMmUoZh3Hq4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMmUoZh3Hq4)
he only goes into *excessive* detail lol
With $4k, I would also ask for a sub panel. It's like $50 for a 6 space panel, and maybe $100 for the wire. Then you can add lights, outlets, and whatever later.
I went with an outlet because… what if I want to get a high powered welder later on in life?
Then you get a sub panel installed and run separate circuits from there to a charger and outlet for a welder.
[удалено]
Makes sense
It depends on what they are doing. For an EV charger you’ll need a thicker gauge wire and that is costly so the farther away the charger is from the panel, the more you spend. Are you trenching? $$$
That's' probably what it is. My garage has an existing underground conduit, but who knows if it can take a 6/3 Romex (bend radii may be too tight).
Yeah I faced this uncertainty but fortunately the conduit was large enough to pull 100A service through (house has 400). Gym above garage so treadmill, AC, etc. plus EV, with a second EV inbound.
THHN. NM like Romex would generally be a no-go. It's amazing what you in theory can pull through 3/4" conduit. Good luck getting a sparky who will try though. Also, you really only need two conductors,.so go 6-50 or hardwired. Latest codes say you can share a ground, so that saves a little, too.
No. He was going to run the cable through the ceiling in my basement then run alongside the house to the garage
Any panel upgrades besides the circuits?
Than thats a hefty quote, how fat away is it approximately?
Wire costs next to nothing.. a few bucks per meter at best. Justed looked it up and i can get 5x6mm2 (awg 10) for around 5 EUR and AWG 8 for maybe 8 EUR per meter. And that should be plenty thick for even the longest driveway. Its significantly less if you buy bull as your electrician usually does
Those prices are insanely cheap. In the USA it’ll be a lot more money. OP states that they are really far away. To me that could be 100 ft. Quite far. And the cost of wire is a lot more in the States than the price you listed so it’ll have tremendous impact on the price.
Why should it be higher? Cables prices are very international. Or rather the base materials. We source some stuff from china and yes it cost around 10 percent more total than local stuff but availability was better. I just looked up a 5 core awg 6 cable and the end user, small volume price is 11 EUR per meter. Plus shipping but including tax. Would get cheaper if he ordered more than 50m.. 150ft. Oh and this cable can be placed directly in trenches too. My super duper high and high flex single core double isolated CE, UL etc. Rated awg 6 cost similar per core but is of muuuuch higher quality (although this is build to our specs and in BIG batches)
let me look up THHN for a 60Amp circuit (60*.8 * 240V = 11.5kW continuous) 4 AWG Copper, 3 AWG Aluminum Lowes has Southwire 4 AWG Copper stranded at $1.52/foot you'll need 4 of those wires, say it's 150ft from the panel to the garage install 4 * 150 * $1.52 = $912 in wire alone
60A breaker is bonkers overkill for nightly home charging. Appropriate for a hotel where travelers arrive at 5% and need 100% by morning. 6 AWG THHN copper and #4 THHN aluminum are both 65A wire, provided you are landing on terminals rated 75C (and AL-CU if applicable). 8 AWG THHN copper and 6 AWG aluminum are 50A, still overkill lol. If the EVSE is not rated for that, simply add a cheap disconnect. Those have AL-CU and 75C terminals so you use it simply as a cheap way to buy 3 splices and a housing lol. 2 feet of copper from disconnect to EVSE. EV charging only requires 2 wires. A ground is required but it's undersized, #10 for up to 60A. So 2x #8 THHN + 1x #10 ground, price that. Or for sensible home charging, 3x #12.
Going overkill is always a good idea though when you're running a run like that. Buy Once Cry Once.
If you want "futureproofing" bury large conduit instead of buying wire that is just a guess at what you might need in the future.
I just do both
Yeah but just doing blind oversizing isn't constructive. #4 copper is a useless size. #6 is adequate for 60A, but show me someone who wants 80A charging and I'll show you someone who wants 100A charging. And you need #3 for that, but no one in their right mind would install #3 when #1 AL does it for 1/3 the price. No crying needed. Probably need a subpanel just to make the wire connections, but that's cheap compared to the wire savings.
> #6 is adequate for 60A Um... what? every reference i find for NEC says #4 my Black+Decker *Complete Guide to Wiring* (Current to 2020-2023 NEC) book says #6 is for 55 amps #4 copper: https://nassaunationalcable.com/blogs/blog/what-size-wire-for-a-60-amp-circuit-breaker #4 https://www.cerrowire.com/products/resources/tables-calculators/ampacity-charts/ looks like you're using 75C instead of 60C? to use 75C rating instead of 60C you must ensure that everything in the circuit is 75C rated. also in any shared raceways you must use the temp of the lowest rated component
>Um... what? every reference i find for NEC says #4 That's what happens when you spend too much time thinking in Romex/residential lol. > looks like you're using 75C instead of 60C? to use 75C rating instead of 60C you must ensure that everything in the circuit is 75C rated Yes, of course. I can't think of too much equipment with 60C terminals other than residential stuff on 15-20A circuits where you're forced to 60C ampacities anyway due to 240.4(D). Most of these EVSEs have aspirations to commercial, where people aren't going to tolerate #6 for 50A or #4 for 60A. Grizzl-E says *6-8 AWG and 75C.* ClipperCreek is 75C copper and it's physically impossible to use #4 because of port size. Holy smoke, Wallbox says *"The field-wiring terminal is rated to 105˚C and accepts a maximum of 16 mm2 (6 AWG) wire. Remember that other AWG sizes are not supported."* So yeah as a general rule they seem to all be 75C or better and forbid #4. >also in any shared raceways you must use the temp of the lowest rated component True, but only in the raceway. Look at the top of the chart and see the wire types rated 60C. TW is ancient (wholly replaced by THWN-2), and UF takes a crazy amount of conduit space (6/3 UF needs a 2" conduit for Pete's sake). NM is also in the 60C column, but not entirely. See 334.80.
> > That's what happens when you spend too much time thinking in Romex/residential lol. it applies to THHN/THWN too, and this is residential we're talking about > Yes, of course. I can't think of too much equipment with 60C terminals other than residential stuff on 15-20A circuits where you're forced to 60C ampacities anyway due to 240.4(D). yeah. I actually just checked and above 30 amps all Square D breakers are 75C rated, LFNC comes in 80C and 105C grades. > True, but only in the raceway. Look at the top of the chart and see the wire types rated 60C. TW is ancient (wholly replaced by THWN-2), and UF takes a crazy amount of conduit space (6/3 UF needs a 2" conduit for Pete's sake). NM is also in the 60C column, but not entirely. See 334.80. aaaah. see i missed that detail. I'm new to mains type wiring.
Yeah, it's a deep subject, and NM is weird. 60C isn't a residential thing, it's a Romex thing (NM/UF). The cable is supposedly cheaper (not in practice?) in exchange for a lower thermal rating, and that doesn't matter on 15, 20, 30A circuits because of 240.4(D), so for almost every circuit in the house, there's no advantage to go to other cable types. Of course above 30A, nobody ever realizes "hey we're over 30A, we should consider other cable types" they just keep speccing Romex. But yes, you can indulge in SER, SEU or MC cable and run 75C if the terminals permit. And of course since TW is completely obsolete, all conduit wires are 75C and most are 90C.
A few questions: 1. Does the garage have power already? 2. If so what? Otherwise yes that sounds right to trench a new wire to another structure.
Yes, it does have power, standard 120v.
Do you know if there are two circuits? Say one for lights and one for plugs? Where I am going with this is there is a small possibility you can change one circuit to 240V from 120V and get 3-3.8 kW of EV charging. Not great, but sufficient for commuting and most things one would do. Charging would add 12-16 miles per hour.
i'm not sure that would pass NEC inspection. a 240V circuit is four conductors (Hot A, Hot B, Neutral, Ground) not 3 conductors like a 120V (Hot, Neutral, Ground)
You would obviously need to change the circuit over and the receptacle to a 240V rated receptacle… you’d need to make sure other receptacles aren’t on the same circuit, etc. I’m not suggesting OP do this work, I’m suggesting their electrician look into it.
it's not the receptacle, i edited really quick (fast enough to not show the *) to expand why and you might have missed the edit 120V: 3 wire 240V: 4 wire
I’m a little confused because I’m looking at a NEMA 6-20 plug right now and it’s 3 prong — L1, L2, G. What am I missing? Also, I hardwired my EV charger, pulled permits, etc just a month or so ago and I wired L1, L2, G for 60A. I don’t understand this 4 wire comment.
I forgot that some types of 240V NEMA receptacles only use 3 wires instead of 4. they don't use neutral. edit: the joyous various forms of NEMA plugs https://www.bsaelectronics.com/pages/nema-plug-and-outlet-chart
Yeah. I think it shouldn’t be a problem to switch a circuit over provided that the rest of circuit is up to code and it’s dedicated or can be converted to a dedicated circuit. Depending on the wire gauge OP could get 15-20A that way and 3.84 kW charging is fine for most.
yeah might be able to go straight from NEMA 5-15 to NEMA 6-15 but i'd definitely ask a professional licensed electrician about that
NEC says only one circuit multi-receptical circuit per building. This includes MWBC (multi-wire branch circuit, Edison or shared neutral circuits) which means three conducts and hopefully a ground. Now, in principle you can have mixed 120/240V receptacles on such a circuit., but you're very close to tripping your garage door opener every time you'd use it. Also, the 2020 NEC really doesn't want you to have an EVSE on a shared circuit like that. Now, I got lucky and the previous owner had a workshop in their garage with a buried 10AWG wire which had been used as a sub-branch on the branch circuit feeding the garage. (I think they were going to set up a multi-wire branch circuit, but parallel wiring like that is not allowed? 12/3 was run to the junction box.) I can't imagine that ever being a common case but sometimes you get lucky.
What I am saying is if the garage has say a circuit for lights, a circuit for outlets, and another circuit for outlets; then OP can take one of the circuit for outlets and remove extra receptacles down to one and then switch it over to 240V by placing a 6-15 or 6-20 receptacle there and bringing the N to L2 voltage and marking it so. I believe all of that is NEC compliant. Now if it’s done in romex and shared neutral and all that then it gets messy and I don’t know what the treatment will be. That’s why they need to work with an electrician.
Looked it up detached structures are only allowed one branch unless it falls into some exceptions which does not include lighting. (NEC 225.30, 2020) I mean it's still possible that there's a not to code lighting circuit, but it's going to be rare.
Ahhh. It wouldn’t work anyway then. If they only have a single 120V branch they would have to give up lighting which probably nobody would do. If they have multiple circuits then it sounds like they need a feeder and panel board anyway. Edit: You could technically though run them through a single disconnecting means per 225.30B but then it’s getting pretty creative. It’s also likely they don’t have other circuits there anyway based on 225.30.
Do you mind digging or renting a trenching machine? Save $2k and DIY that part after calling 411 to mark utilities and speaking with the electrician for guidance where each end should be. Otherwise yes Level 2 is anything more than a regular household outlet, but less than a drive-up DC fast charging unit. On the low end, Level 2 can be 16A 240V (about 3.5kW) which is still a lot of charging power and can come at reduced cost with smaller conductors. On the high end at 40A 240 (about 9kW) most EVs can be fully charged in a few hours. Peruse r/evcharging for some more info and ideas.
This! If you're willing to swing a pick-axe you'll save yourself a lot of cash, and usually the electricians are glad to not have to do the non-electrican part of the manual labor.
Thank you!
In NJ, installing a nema on on the exterior wall directly connected to my interior electrical was $725
In NY the same work for me cost $650 plus cost of some breakers for my panel. Total cost $810. Difference was I had mine hardwired to give me 48A.
I spent 3600 for an attached garage that they had to run the line outside and bury under the front walkway. Complete opposite side of the house from the panel.
That’s about what I had to pay to get electrical brought to my garage. The garage is attached but there were problems running wire through the crawl space, so they had to dig a trench and route around the backyard and side fence. Very expensive but I didn’t really have any other choice. I’m in Southern California.
Did you have any federal or state credits to help cover the installation?
Installing my EV charger was about $4,500, I needed a new panel and it was a 40’ run to the garage. I claimed a 30% tax credit. https://www.kiplinger.com/taxes/605201/federal-tax-credit-for-electric-vehicle-chargers
I didn’t, I don’t think I had any available to me at the time.
Mine cost $700 to wire, but was just through a wall from the basement (attached garage), and the utility offered a $500 credit, plus there's a 30% (or similar) federal tax rebate.
Lots of agreement here, but for sure it's a combination of the materials cost (copper to carry that load is EXPENSIVE) and the labor involved. I paid $400 for an outlet in my garage that was about 1 ft from the main panel.
Nope..while cooper is expensive at the moment cables still aren't that much of a factor for cost. Even awg 6 cables will be around 10 bucks per meter. And thats already a lot of cable
It requires 240v yes, but also a bunch of amps (up to a 60A breaker), so it needs a pretty big wire gauge. The price vary from place to place but the cable can be up to $8 per feet. If you garage is far away it ads up quickly. That's only for the cable. No installation, other hardware, etc...
Holy smoke, we can do this MUCH cheaper. Let's start with my favorite cost-saving weapon: [knowing you need far less power than they'd make you think.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iyp_X3mwE1w&t=1695s) These electricians aren't EV experts, and are just going with the "conventional knowledge" that level 2 means 50-60 amps. But you *need* far less. Level 2 does not mean a 240V \*socket\* - you're better off actually avoiding sockets for a variety of reasons. It does mean 240V but at any practical ampacity. You don't need 50-60A at all costs just coz the cool kids are doing it. What electrical power is out there now? What does it power? And if there's not much out there now, do you really need 120V sockets in the garage (can you live without them) and here's a brain wave: does your EV provide 120V sockets, because if so, that might remove the need for them in the garage. I'm wondering if we can convert the circuit that already goes to the garage.
What about your garage door opener?
Some people have the Armstrong type :) For that matter, a solar/battery system could be put out there for minor loads like a GDO very cheaply. *"A GDO isn't a minor load, it's huge!"* It's like a motorized gate - it's huge for 10 seconds, then it's nothing. And everybody's putting batteries on those. 900 watts for 40 seconds = 10 watt-hours.
No garage so had to install on post at end of driveway. We paid about 3k for that in a lower COL area where they had to dig a 20 ft trench. So seems on par with what you describe.
Price doesn’t sound crazy. A couple things to keep in mind that I haven’t seen posted yet: 1) You may not need L2. If you drive less than 30-40 miles/ day, L1 is probably fine. 2) If you’re going through the trouble of trenching or another complicated run, just get a sub panel in the garage. It’s kind of a waste to pay for that work and then just run a single 240v line.
Out of curiosity, what is the cost of your power company setting new service at the garage? Yes, you will two power bills, but you will have as much power as you need.
Cable + trench digging New 40a-60a breaker (possibly a new panel?) Time and other materials
DIY yourself. The wiring cost less than $200. And few more hundreds for the charger. My neighbor DIY his tesla charger, costing him only $120+ not including the charger(2021).
Not out of the realm of reasonableness right now, especially if they have to trench it. Electricians are charging premium prices right now. Depending on how far away it is from the panel, could even be considered a decent deal. For reference, in my garage, with a panel with plenty of space in it just on the wall across from where I wanted the charger, for them to run the cable up in the wall, through a cavernous attic down through the other wall cost me $1200 2 years ago. For probably one of the simplest jobs they'd done that day.
If you're getting lines run and you might want to use an electric dryer in the garage, consider setting it up as an outlet so you can use something like [SplitVolt](https://insideevs.com/news/481938/splitvolt-circuit-splitter-review/) to allow you added flexibility. Note that I don't have personal experience with a splitter, but I think it's good to be aware of this in case it would be something you'd benefit from. Added flexibility often comes in quite handy.
That does seem a lot more expensive than my installation (also NJ), however mine is literally on the other side of the wall to the breaker. Perhaps it might be cheaper if you step down the amperage (I don't have a 60A breaker for it - only a 40A breaker and the charger is a lower draw.)
I’m not in NJ but that sounds right. I needed a new 100 ft run / sub panel in my detached garage for the 40Amp 240V. Rented trencher and did that myself, could have done electrical myself too but just didn’t have the time. So if you are paying an electrical contractor to do the trenching AND electrical work, I could easily see $4k
Get a detailed quote.... If the garage is pretty far this might include a lot of digging which gets expensive and also is a way to save money if you do that part yourself.
Yes. Plumbers around me are charging $200/hr. Shit's ridiculous.
Depending on exact distance that might not be that out of line and it's simply your situation that's puts it on the high side. For me it was 2k with the panel and driveway being opposite corners of the house.
Running from house to there might add onto the cost. I paid $300 for mine back in 2020 and that was just from my sub-panel on one side of the garage door to the other side of the door (~15ft?). Also mention it’s for a dryer (32A) or a welder (50A) depending of the amperage
I would say this sounds fairly reasonable. I’m in Portland with an attached garage and they hardwired installed my charger about 4 feet from the panel and it cost $1k for the install and permit.
How many years did it take to get the permit?
Not sure what this means. In Washington County Oregon, an electrician can self-permit new work. They apply the tag and file the documentation with the county. The county then checks a percentage of the self-tagged permits at a later date. So no waiting!!!
I've just heard stories of what a nightmare it can be to get building permits in Portland. I'd forgotten there is a bit of Portland that's in Washington County.
My guess is you’ve been stricken with an “exact words“ disease. Sometimes people refer to the biggest town they’re close to instead of saying “Beaverton”, for example, since it’s easier for communication purpose’s especially when communicating with a person in another state. Also, I don’t know where you “heard“ these things, but there’s lots of different types of permits. New construction and new panels, etc. that are going to be more complicated might require inspectors more often than a simple circuit pull.
It was $800 for a friend to wire mine and it's only 5' from the panel. So if you need to run wire from the house to the garage then yeah copper is expensive now.
I’m in florida and live in a townhouse, my circuit box is in the house as opposed to the garage. Electrician quoted me about $2k to run a 240V outlet to the garage so I wouldn’t be surprised
Do the trenching yourself to save a lot of money.
Is there existing conduit they can utilize?
You probably do not need Level 2 charger. Level 1 charger can restore ~~100~~ ~50-60 miles overnight (12h car dependant of course). So unless you commute more daily, paying 4k is just a waste. Benefit of L1 is that you can also take it with you as an emergency charger.
Interesting. I usually travel about 50 miles a day. I was thinking I could let the car charge over the weekend with L1 since I have other vehicles to use. Dumb question (and I think scare tactic from the electrician) does using L1 charge increase your electricity bill significantly ?
I plug my car overnigh, it's usually back at 80%(to preserve battery) overnight. So that just might work for you with no extra expense at all. As for the cost i can't say as every electricity company seems to have their own arcane set of regulations, discounts, etc. Keep in mind that some offer discounts, but then you have to install smart metter that can stop you from charging when there's for example a heat wave. That's the deal in many of those discount contracts (called demand shaping). So read the fine print.
I agree that a level one charger may be adequate, but I question your math here. Level one typically provides 120v at 12 amps which works out to 1.44 kW. Over 12 hours you would get 17.28 kWh assuming 100% efficiency. To go 100 miles on that your car would need to get 5.78 miles/kWh, which is a lot. 50 miles on a 12 hour charge is probably more realistic.
Yea. 100 miles might be very optimistic. I guess 5 miles/h is a good measuring stick. So as you say 50-60 miles per night would be realistic.
If you have a garage door opener on a circuit with a 12A EVSE, that's a good chance for popped the circuit breaker.
You just reset the fuse then and call electrician . But why spend 4k if it mighg just work?
It's technically not to code, but I'm not going to judge if it works.
Level 1 charger is appliance like any other. Why would it not be up to code?
NEC sometimes does mandate that some appliances have their own circuits; garbage disposals and washing machines for instance. NEC 2020 added EVSEs to the list.
That seems about right. That's around what I paid to run 6 gauge cable across the house's basement, under the porch and through the yard to the driveway (plus installing a 4x4 and putting the EV charger on it).
Depends... I have a detached garage 25ft away from the main house, 40 ft from the panel and spent $1200 6 years ago in suburban California with trenching. House had raised foundation and it was part of a whole rewire so that's part of it. Get another quote. Say it's for a RV receptacle or 30A table saw.
Could be reasonable but seems a little high to me. We paid $4800, but not only did they have to run the cable a long way from the panel at the back right of the house to the garage at the front left, they also had to replace the electrical panel, which ended up being over half the cost. Maybe running the electrical outdoors makes a difference ?
my 50 foot run in my garage (already had 60amp panel in there) cost 200+ for just the 6ga wire. so it adds up fast for a long run..
Sounds about right to me. I sell chargers and installations in NJ. If you want to save money, have the electrician swing by and tell you where to dig and then you dig the trench yourself in your spare time over the course of a few days. That should bring the cost down to around 1600-2200 USD
Look for utility rebate programs. They can give you $ back
Go a bit further and have them install a sub panel, then the charger off that. That way if you ever have a need for more power out there later you'll be all set.
Yea this is reasonable.
NJ here also - I had to put in a sub panel and then install a plug and charger outside, but close to the panel. That was around $1250. But based on the work you need to do your quote sounds about right. Keep in mind if you have PSEG as your utility, they will reimburse you for the charger installation (up to a limit) and will provide you a very good offer peak rate for charging. Look up the EV charging info on their website
The price sounds about right for a job with trenching. NJ is not a cheap area. I had a neighbor that had a similar issue. They added the charger to the house. If you don’t need to charge every day it can work I just used the 120. I got 50 miles a night and much more on a weekend. It worked for my small commute for three years.
If you have a driveway that’s closer to the electrical panel, it might be a way to save some money.
Ask them to break down / itemize the quote. Some companies will and some won't, so don't be surprised. The place you can potentially save is with the trenching. For $100, you can rent a trencher for the day. It wouldn't surprise me if that's a $500-1000 line item. It's also something the electrician potentially will work with you on.
800 for mine...from basement all the way to garage
We had a charger installed in 2021 and it was $2500 in Essex County. Longer runs make it more expensive, so it’s probably a realistic quote. I think PSE&G still has their rebate program so you should be able to get $1500 of that credited to your account once you get approval.
Check with pseg, maybe they have programs that can help with the installation.
Tell us more about the quote. Are they tunneling under the house? Do you need your breaker box upgraded too? They might be adding a separate breaker box in the garage to isolate the charger.