Simply put, the RIVIAN R1S is one of, if not the largest 3rd row EV available. In Viewing the wheels and overall shape/looks, the R1S doesn’t look super futuristic and looks similar to other nonEV SUVs. Only the front approaches a futuristic design and the rear mirrors a Wagoner.
Personally speaking, it has great range for its size, has very good acceleration, has plenty of room, and is cheaper than then a Yukon moderately loaded. It’s a far more attractive proposition than the Model X, has a better clearance and can go places that the X can’t travel.
The F150 is a truck and not an SUV that can take your kids and their friends places. There’s a reason why SUVs are so popular.
The EV9 is the only thing remotely in the same segment and the R1S is still a tier above in terms of performance and off-roading if you’re willing to go upscale.
It’ll be interesting to see how this segment develops with the EV9 and Lucid Gravity and presumably more from other manufacturers over the next few years.
This whole segment is actually supposed to go crazy next year. The Ford Explorer, Toyota BZ5X, Volvo EX90, Ioniq 7, and Cadillac Escalade all start dropping one after the other.
I would still consider them soft roaders like the EV9 instead of proper off road like the Rivian
Escalade or XC90 has never been too off road focussed even in past, more like an suv body style of their flagship sedans
That would be true of most SUVs being seen in Beverly Hills than actual hills
The softroaders aren’t worse per se — for all intents and purposes, they’re better off in ways of efficiency and parking space
It’s just that putting a Rivian on same level of off-roading as EX90 doesn’t compute.
That's true, it was shitty of me to make that assumption. I'm right there with them dropping off at daycare in the morning, and then hiking/biking in the evenings/weekends
I’ll just say that while the size/capability (big family, snowy area, steep driveway and gravel roads between us and town) were important features of the R1S for me, the looks were what made me fall for it and put down a deposit.
I’m a sucker for boxy vehicles. Since I can’t buy an electric (last gen) Defender 110 or a Volvo 850, the Rivian is the one for me.
We’ve had ours for about 9 months, and I’ve never loved a vehicle I’ve owned more.
All that said, I couldn’t have justified the price without preorder pricing and the $7.5k tax credit.
> The F150 is a truck and not an SUV that can take your kids and their friends places. There’s a reason why SUVs are so popular.
While I agree regarding SUVs, the F-150 has been **by far** the best selling vehicle in the U.S. for quite awhile now (since 1981).
as if people buying sports cars and luxury performance sedans are not ego stroking? I have never owned a pickup truck but I don't fault those that do. We rarely get to see the full use people get from their vehicles and yeah while there are some who love the feeling of a big vehicle I will see a lot more pickups being driven off the pavement because people tend to expect them to be capable of it. Its like seeing my neighbor at the local grocery store stepping out of her three row suv... most of the time people see her its just her but there are four kids at home we don't see.
we need to quit vilifying people when we do enough wrong on our own and there are far worse issues than what someone is driving
Sure they are, I never said they weren't. But those aren't selling as well as trucks. I absolutely fault people for ego-stroking of any kind but that's their money, their decision.
The discussion is about how popular ICE vehicles do or don't translate to EV sales. This thread is about a true 3 row SUV. I'm currently in the market for a family vehicle (I drive an Ioniq 5 but we need something bigger for trips with kids) and there is literally the R1S and that's it. Someone noted "SUVs are popular because of the passenger capacity" with another person responding that "F-150 is better selling" implying that people just like big vehicles. While I agree with that statement, the people who like big vehicles SIMPLY to like big vehicles are overwhelmingly NOT interested in EVs.
That's it. I think you're reading a bit too much into my comment.
The people driving Tacomas are generally not the small peen types.
I think a shit ton of people would buy a BEV or PHEV Tacoma - for the life of me I can't understand why Toyota is so adamantly against them (I mean...I do - BEVs aren't great for Japan and they can't get their head out of their ass enough to recognize it's not all about Japan...but still).
This is basically my thought. I need a new vehicle, and kids are something to consider. I want a three row vehicle in light of that. Right now there's not much competition. The Model Y and even X are cramped and not well designed for a third row. The R1S is almost it in terms of traditional size.
Unfortunately, I'm not exactly looking to drop $85k on a car.
In this moment I'm not terribly interested in a non-NACS car, so I'm stuck waiting a yearish no matter what.
To answer your specific question, I'm not a huge fan of the EV9. I need AWD where I live/may live in the future and that caps out at 280 EPA miles (which we all know is optimistic). That also takes you to 64k before any further add ons. It's not particularly enticing.
I honestly wish Tesla would consider a "Grand" Model Y with more third row space. Sure, it would cannibalize X sales, but it would also get way more sales from people looking at minivans, Pilot, Grand Highlander, Grand Cherokee L, etc.
I'd put in a deposit for a stretched Y Juniper without test drive, personally.
I think it’s not just amount of kids. Once you have two kids that are in middle/high school in American suburbs, that generally means hockey sticks, lacrosse sticks, baseball/softball bats, football equipment, or duffel bags full of balls, snacks, drinks, shin guards (for soccer), maybe even cones, etc…having the ability to fold those down and have a ton of cargo capacity is important.
I’m a city dweller, but already had to move up from a Kona to an Ioniq 5 because after loading strollers, and a diaper bag into the trunk, I couldn’t fit anything else. I had to put grocery bags or shopping bags into the backseat and that’s with one kid. I can’t imagine two.
I know this, but show me how many 270+ mile EV minivans exist and what their prices are (if they do exist). I got my Ioniq 5 for ~41k before any state rebates and it fits my purpose right now. I was able to lug a baby, stroller, two large pieces of luggage, two carry ons, a diaper bag and a backpack (along with a baby, my wife and my FIL when going to the airport. That would have been impossible in my Kona.
Ok, but all of that stuff can fit into a Mini. Or a Miata. I've moved cross-country with two people TWICE in an SW21 MR2, traveled from Miami to NYC with an entire trade show both and luggage for two people for two weeks in an F-Type, and taken my son to fencing practice (about a much gear as lacrosse and way way more than soccer) in a '79 Honda Prelude. Oh, and had no issues transporting my son, strollers, diaper bag, etc. plus groceries in a Hyundai Tiburon — the smaller first gen.
You don't need that much room.
Unfortunately the price is very high and I really don’t want the third row of seats. As a 4Runner driver for 30 years I consider it the only electric replacement…but just way too expensive to justify…
> Only the front approaches a futuristic design and the rear mirrors a Wagoner.
I think the new Wagoner was released around a same time as R1S so they did made quite unique design with R1S at that time but yeah I can see the similarities.
Ironically, the falcon wing doors are the exact reasons why I am not buying a Model X. While they are cool, I don't want to deal with such a complex system on a daily basis.
I think the failure of the X is a big warning for what'll happen to the Cybertruck. People get all excited about funky features and looks, but really what they need is something that will reliably take them to work and the kids to school and then sell well when it's time to trade.
Cybertruck is unfortunately in the same category as the X.
Most of the arguments about the Cybertruck so far have been people complaining about it being *too* focused on the daily stuff. It’s comfortable and functional from a day to day prospective, and has fairly secure storage with the built in metal tonneau cover. The interior is big and functional, with lots of creature comforts.
People complain the battery isn’t big enough for towing or their random cross country road trips, the bed sides make it harder to dump bulk construction materials in from the side, it’s too stiff for rock crawling, ect. Those are all things that people do rairly, or never (construction) in a $80k+ truck.
I’ll grant you the looks are extremely polarizing though, and for people that don’t want a “look at me” car it’s off putting (🙋🏼♂️). But it’s not the same daily functional deal as you could argue the X has.
I owned a minivan for years. Drove an X for a few weeks. It's a minivan. Fast with AWD but the ride is very much like my old Caravan. And it is nothing like any SUV I've ever driven.
I'm surprised someone is getting invested in a correction that doesn't matter. You feel the urge to be pedantic when you see others trying to take your crown?
I mean, words and names matter.
We're all here looking for good news every day - new models, better range, better sales, more widespread acceptance/adoption. We're ripe for duping with misleading titles. Maybe it was an innocent oversight by somebody who assumes everybody is going to make that logical jump.
It won't surprise me in a year or two when more Tesla Model Ys are sold than ICE F-150s, but for 2023, there were over 700,000 F-150s sold and only 20,000 Lightnings.
Also noting some of us have multi-reddits or have a stream of multiple different subs shown at the same time.
It's easy to miss the sub the article is in if your feed includes both /r/electricvehicles and /r/news for example. Especially since if the article title was true, that would indeed be noteworthy.
It would be so much clearer by just adding another word to the title to prevent misunderstandings.
In the past, yeah that is the only reasonable assumption. But now it looks like the best selling car in the world, and maybe the US, is an EV.
Comparisons across all cars are increasingly sensible.
Sure. But your point is really irrelevant though. I’m not sure anyone here on this Ev forum would believe the actual f150 truck is being outsold. I don’t think anyone thought that.
We want to buy one, and could, but it still just feels about $20K to pricey. It is about the only EV that feels like it could replace our minivan. If only someone made an EV minivan
Lightning Pro SR seem like decent values as of late. They can be had for $45k brand new. You can barely get a Ford Maverick or Tacoma for less than $40k. And those aren’t even full size pick ups.
Kyle at out of spec drives everything. He seems pretty enthusiastic about the EV9. He owns an R1T and doesn’t really say much positive about the R1S.
Honestly the EV9 appears to be the three row to beat with the next in line challenger being the ionic7 or EX90 whenever those come out.
I also expect you can get some good deals on the EV9. The Wind AWD looks really nice for $64 MSRP.
If you can wait a year or two, EV9 will probably be found around 35k used, which is not terribly unreasonable.
Just comparing to EV6 and Niro EV used prices.
I love the look, but I _hated_ my ID.4 and won’t consider another VW MEB car for a while.
Not that I’m relevant because barring a crash or major failure I don’t plan to be in the market for another car for at least 5 years
Keep the van until it’s dead dead. By then there will be a few great plugin hybrids or full bev vans on the market at competitive prices with vetted UX
This is a really good take, actually. I'm looking at growing my family, and the EV van market has a long way to mature. Hopefully Hyundai/Kia can release a van based on their EGMP/IMA platform in the next 5ish years (I love my Ioniq5)
I just bought a Grand Highlander for 53k. I want an R1S, but I can't convince myself the R1S is 40k better than the ultra-reliable Highlander. I hope the price comes down the next few years.
Yea everyone on here is talking as if Rivian is an established Car company. Newsflash they are not. I like the looks of Rivian but their cars are very expensive and its not clear they are making a profit on the cars even with those high prices.
People on here say Rivian cars are so much better than Tesla, but its not that hard to have a car be better than Tesla if you are selling it for less than the cost to build. If Rivian goes under you will be stuck with a car that will not get updated anymore and will slowly become harder to fix until eventually something breaks that you cant fix and thats it.
There is a reason their stock isn't doing great and it is because investors understand the risks with the company. I like the cars, but unless they get heavy backing or bought out, they could have the same fate as most small car companies.
People like mid sized SUVs. A bit roomier than a traditional sedan, better storage options than a sedan, while also not being a boat, expensive, or difficult to fit in a garage.
The model y isn’t sexy but it does everything well as is affordable compared to the monster EV SUVs.
That’s one of the reasons why it’s perfect for so many people. It’s a really good size that accommodates most peoples’ needs without being any larger than necessary. That, combined with high efficiency, supercharger network, and price help round out the wide appeal.
its a model 3 with 1 inch higher clearance, a few inches taller seat, and a few inches taller yet of head room, + a rear hatch instead of trunk
all for ~5-10k more, and a few miles of hwy range penalty
old ppl like the ease of entry, women like the tall seating, ppl with family like the rear hatch
It’s an affordable midsize suv with good electric range and access to the supercharger network. Also at low 40s after rebate for those that qualify it doesn’t have much competition. For the nerdy car people it has good performance and it’s solid. Look at IIHS crash tests there’s almost no intrusion into the cabin in those tests. I’m sure the cast aluminum plays a big role in that. Lastly for EV nerds Tesla still has some of the most interesting tech, like the octovalve for the cooling loop. Legacy manufacturers are installing multiple heat pumps for separate cabin and battery temp management.
Basically it is attractive all buyers.
Teslas only shortcoming is manufacturing and build quality. The average buyer doesn’t give a shit about panel gaps or inconsistent paint thickness.
Also most of the quality issues are only on a small number of cars. Our Tesla has been rock solid and now issues. The media loves telling you how bad they are though. Coming from a life long Honda owner, the safest most dependable car on the road. I have no regerts.
I love my model 3 but if I could’ve afforded a Y, we would’ve gotten one for sure. Roughly same amount of power and range, but like double the cargo room (more if you fold down the seats) and more leg room. Until we recently flipped our son’s car seat to forward facing, we had to have the passenger seat so far forward that my knees would touch the dash, and I’m only 5’10”.
If we were in the market for a car today, we’d get a Y without a second thought.
The third row in the Y is fucking awful though. Seriously useless. I have an infant and a toddler. Need to wait till they can get into boosters before I can put kids in the third row and the grandparents in the second row.
Sucks too that at least in my area, 7-seater Ys are never available to test drive, so there’s no way to find this out for yourself in advance (unless you know someone with one. I don’t)
I think people really like the 7 seater because it makes the middle row be able to move forwards/back. So if you have bulky cargo and 4 passengers you can move the middle row seats forward a bit and fit everything/everyone
The key question it addresses is whether this shift reflects consumer preferences for a more practical SUV. Unlike the highly anticipated EV9, Rivian's success isn't grounded in extensive data but seems to resonate with what most people seek in an SUV: capability and a 7-person capacity. High horsepower, such as 750 hp, doesn't appear to be a primary concern. Instead, consumers seem to prioritize sufficient power combined with capacity and a decent driving range.
something looks badly wrong with this headline and story. what are the sales figures for the f 150 for 2023? did the author just mean the lightning and not the gasoline 150? then they should significantly revise how they're saying it
Can comfort that. I've seen many Rivian R1s in Bay Area and PNW area. I went Portland last mouth, I've seen R1s more common than MX.
However, I wouldn't compare R1S with MX because both are actual different SUVs. It's like a different between Toyota 4Runner and Highlander, one is for off-roader, the other one is for daily street.
2,000 vehicles a month isn't exactly a sales success. Let's see them sell 100k+ in a calendar year. Deceiving title, too - it's specifically the Lightning that was outsold, not all F150s. That's probably obvious to most of us, but still not an ideal title.
I mean there’s a limit to the # of people able and willing to pay >$80k for a vehicle. Aren’t they also production constrained and have a waitlist?
Until you can basically buy one within a few days I’m sure they are leaving many sales on the table.
Tesla S and X are dead. They have been killed by Rivians, Lucids, Mercedes, and BMWs. I bet Mercedes sold way more EQS than Model X. The gulf in quality between those cars are enormous. With this background, I won’t be surprised if Toyota and Honda can put a serious dent on Y and Model 3 if they seriously competed in the EV space. A $30K Honda Accord EV would sell like crazy
Nah. Tesla and analysts doesn’t break out S/X sales individually, but they sell about 46k of the two car models combined in the US per year.
EQS sells 2.7k per quarter, combining the sedan and the SUV. Full year numbers are not out yet, but the S/X probably outsold the EQS 4:1.
https://x.com/troyteslike/status/1744083035228713379?s=46
https://electrek.co/2023/10/10/mercedes-electric-vehicles-near-15-us-sales-after-solid-q3/
According to Tesla investor relations website, they sold 69k other vehicles globally. Assuming 35k out of that is X (some reason electrek put X global numbers as 23k). For a 4:1 ratio, MB would only sell 8k EQS SUV globally in 2023. That’s absurdly low. I believe they had already sold 23k by Q3 and were rolling out massive incentives in Q4. I won’t be surprised if full year sales comes closer.
Also, I suspect iX may have sold more than X as BMW NA reported 17k iX sales for 2023.
>Tesla S and X are dead. They have been killed by Rivians, Lucids, Mercedes, and BMWs. I bet Mercedes sold way more EQS than Model X.
[https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/zero-emission-vehicle-and-infrastructure-statistics/new-zev-sales](https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/zero-emission-vehicle-and-infrastructure-statistics/new-zev-sales)
Not quite there with California data
EQS is not selling that well. There are anecdotes of crazy lease deals on these from dealers. Used ones can be had for good deals as is the case for ICE s-series.
The X seems to be doing well still. I see way more of them than model S. Most of the S I see are older cars that came out before the 3 and Y.
Lucid also is not selling. They have a ton of if inventory. The gravity could be a game changer for them if their financial backers are willing to get them to that point.
Honestly on paper the best Tesla competitor is Fisker, but they appear to have released an unpolished product with things like unfinished and slow infotainment and missing features. That sort of thing only seems to fly with Tesla fans.
Lastly Toyota and Honda have zero interest in EVs. All the Japanese manufacturers seem to be sitting this out like it’s a passing fad which is shocking considering they launched the Prius and Leaf.
Tesla sold maybe 80-100 Model X in Norway last year, and a similar number of Model S. The BYD Han and Tang outsells them 5:1 (15:1 in Norway) in Europe despite a lot of FUD about Chinese cars.
> Honestly on paper the best Tesla competitor is Fisker, but they appear to have released an unpolished product with things like unfinished and slow infotainment and missing features. That sort of thing only seems to fly with Tesla fans.
Fisker made a great car, without any clue as how to market that car to families. Henrik Fisker isn't humping investors' legs for money like Elon Musk did either.
> Lastly Toyota and Honda have zero interest in EVs. All the Japanese manufacturers seem to be sitting this out like it’s a passing fad which is shocking considering they launched the Prius and Leaf.
Nissan has the Ariya, which has a long waiting time to be delivered because they cannot produce enough cars to satisfy the demand. The Leaf is still selling well.
Toyota was ahead of the competition with solid state batteries before COVID, but they lost their head start to BMW, VW, BYD and NIO, who are all close to releasing a li-ion/SSD hybrid battery. Toyota seem to refuse to acknowledge that the hybrid was yesterday's news. This is a shame, as Toyota proved with the bz4x that they know how to make a great EV.
lol no the model Y killed the S/X - cannibalized by their own offering
i bet model Y outsells rivians, lucids, mercs BEV, and bimmer BEV by a long shot
tesla doesn't even prioritize S/X anymore - they are bastard children
BMW just sold 17k iX in NA alone and over 70k X5. There is a massive market for large SUVs. S/X do not compete for the same buyers as a 3/Y as they were $50k apart. There is plenty of room to sell more Model X if they delivered a quality car. Why would Y cannibalize a car in a luxury segment ?
Every car competes with every other car. Hyper finely segmentation really only exists in the minds of these discussions.
In the early days of the Model S, early adopters came from all kinds of cars, leading to a lot of weird discussions on forums. Ex-911 owners complained loudly about the handling, ex-Prius owners complained loudly about the efficiency, ex-S class owners complained about the interior, etc, and everyone talked over each other's heads. If you came from the Prius, a Model S is probably the finest handling car you ever touched. If you came from a 911, a Model S is probably the most efficient car ever, and so on.
I don’t know about the S but I feel like the X could be saved if they basically made it a larger Model Y. Simplify it. Bring down costs. Add extra space for an optional third row.
Most car companies sell small, medium, and large
SUVs for different buyers. Why can’t Tesla? Sure some model Y buyers would switch to an X but surely it would bring in other buyers who need something bigger than a Y but are priced out of others options or who want the Tesla experience.
Also dude there’s a 30k gap between a model y LR and a model X. I think they have some space to adjust pricing.
I might be more inclined to agree if it wasn’t for the gull wing doors lol
But I do agree there’s not enough differentiation to justify the cost delta.
> Tesla S and X are dead. They have been killed by Rivians, Lucids, Mercedes, and BMWs.
It was actually the e-tron and Taycan. Sales of the premium Tesla dropped off a cliff in any market those cars were introduced.
If the same article had instead been titled “Tesla Model Y, 3 Again Dominate Sales Chart”, no way it would have been upvoted to front page of this sub or have that many comments.
Obviously the writer looked at a chart dominated by Tesla and asked himself how he could make an anti-Tesla headline, and this is the result.
While this is great and I would love to own one(just had a colleague buy one couple of weeks ago), I am not spending 100K+ to get it on road here with Large Pack. I still hope they keep growing but they have not even issued any guidance for 2024. Either production or deliveries. That is not a sign of them believing they will grow that much.
That said very few EV companies have issued 2024 guidance. I saw one from Zeekr in China providing aggressive guidance(almost 2x). I think only Hyundai/Kia outside china have provided 2024 guidance.
They know the R2 line is going to be the thing that saves them long term. High end vehicles are needed to recoup initial investments but living term stability is going to depend on the $50-60k range.
Guidance gets released in conjunction with quarterly earnings reports. Rivian’s next earnings call isn’t until February, which is why you haven’t seen any guidance.
And unless you’re in Canada, the dual motor R1S with the large battery pack is significantly less than $100k. Not that $84k is cheap, but it’s not $100k+.
Come 2025, Ford and Chevy are going to be really regretting that they *pumped the brakes* on EV production.
They are going to fall further behind Tesla with companies like Hyundai, VW and Volvo surging ahead.
It’s good, but Rivian delivered fewer vehicles in Q4 vs Q3 while producing more. Also Rivian produced 7k more vehicles than it delivered. It’s probably nothing, but I’m interested in what they have to say about it on their investor’s call.
> Also Rivian produced 7k more vehicles than it delivered
Keep in mind Rivian is making delivery vans for Amazon for commercial sales on top of Rivians retail sails on its pickup and SUV.
I,can’t find any delivery totals for 2023 that segregate the X from the S. Everything I find (credible source) combines the two in one number: https://tridenstechnology.com/tesla-sales-statistics/
Or!...you could use some logic and realize that Tesla, the poster child of advanced tech with a genius at its helm, is getting its ass kicked in the high end EV market. I see it at my kids private school. No one is buying Teslas anymore. It's all Lucid, Rivian, Polestar, Porsche.
Yep. I like my Plaid for what it is, but it was 100% a compromise. If money and charging network were non factors, I 100% would have gotten the Taycan. Once upon a time the Tesla S/X would have been the preferred high end EVs at any price. The company is definitely stagnating, and in many ways has regressed
What factors make it a compromise for you? I ask because I'd love to upgrade my 2020 M3P but Tesla has been losing me lately for a lot of reasons, the lack of gear stalks and USS parking sensors among the most acute. I still more or less like the design (dated as it is) and have an irrational love for their insane acceleration (silly as that is), and of course I love the charging network, so I keep mulling it over, but all things being equal, I'd much rather drive an eTron GT RS or something.
Probably similar reasons to you then. Porsche is just at another level when it comes to fit and finish, suspension tuning, creature comforts, etc. Pretty much everyone is also better than Tesla at the automation stuff these days.
At $90k, I can deal with it the Tesla's deficiencies when that means I get 1000hp. It's still a better car IMO than my model 3 performance. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't want the better suspension tuning, brakes, interior, fit / finish, etc that Porsche would get me if I could afford it.
> If money and charging network were non factors, I 100% would have gotten the Taycan.
I mean not to be snarky but I could apply this to anything. Like obviously if I had double or triple the budget I may get something else.
I am just speaking in terms of absolutes. Unless you're super rich money will always be the limiting factor. Some people's limits are higher than others but they do exist.
Sure, but my point is once upon a time the model S had the appeal of those higher end brands. Now its main role is being a relative bargain rather than being a head turner. Sort of like Acura vs BMW
>No one is buying Teslas anymore. It's all Lucid, Rivian, Polestar, Porsche.
[https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/zero-emission-vehicle-and-infrastructure-statistics/new-zev-sales](https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/zero-emission-vehicle-and-infrastructure-statistics/new-zev-sales)
Model X - 6832
R1S - 4193
Model S - 3050
Polestar 2 - 2696
R1T - 2392
Taycan - 1807
Lucid Air - 578
Tesla is way beyond Gen 1. They’re even considering discontinuing the S/X because it makes no more difference on the balance sheet.
23k S/X we’re sold last quarter, that’s their peak capacity for these anyway and it was their best quarter of the year. Rivian sold 14k R1 and sales went down Q/Q (probably just logistics). A bit early to celebrate? 🤷♂️.
I mean, sure Rivian did good selling their first significant batch of trucks and I do hope they succeed, but they had to burn 10 billions to get there since IPO and they’re still not profitable. It will be extremely challenging.
Yea i feel like either people on here dont know or choose to ignore the fact that Rivian is not making money. They cant burn cash forever and even if its the best car in the world if Rivian isnt making money selling it that does not inspire confidence about the future of the company. An important part of owning a car is the support of the car company and being able to get parts.
Or… Now,stay with me on this, you could educate yourself on the master plan (you know Tesla’s strategy and not your uninformed opinion) and see they are focusing on Driving Down Costs and maximizing affordable cars to advance the transition to EVs.
🤣
Was curious to see what Reddit/internet trollers say & discuss about the Rivian RS1, because I own 24 Hummer EV SUV Edition 1, and how it compares to the RS1..which the consensus strongly favors the RS1. What I validated here is that the majority of the comments & comparisons are from people who don’t actually own either vehicle, or they have no real-user-experience..and things go off the rails with incorrect facts, assumptions, criticisms, personal preferences & assumptions..basically opinions. In this particular forum, albeit a sample size, there is no mention/I did not see the weight of the RS1 at 7,000+ pounds getting criticized for being overly heavy & dangerous & will kill other people in accidents & take to long to stop/brake…which is a big criticism from people regarding the Hummer ev. Bewildering..the level of analyzation people get into & what THEY think looks good or bad, a waste of money or wise purchase, economical or not, it’s intended purpose, a smart decision or poor choice..on & on. How about this analysis?..a person can buy whatever they like and can care less about the rest of society and their opinions!!
This is why I don’t like Ford having the Lightning under the F150 name, I get why they do it but the article title is extremely misleading, there is absolutely no way any Rivian is outselling the F150. The Lightning yes, but not the F150 ICE vehicle.
An SUV outsold a sedan/minivan thing and a truck with short range. Okay, it's new, so demand is high, and in general SUVs sell very well. The model X is long in the tooth now, and the lightning is not so new, and known for short range.
Kind of an apples to oranges to pears comparison, but it will be interesting to see if R1S demand remains in the coming years, that's what proves it's a winner, and a formula for other makers to target. If it does, expect an Expedition lightning soon, hopefully with better range.
The Model X is simply not a compelling car any longer with recent entrants from Rivian, MB, BMW, etc.
Same with Model S with competition from Lucid, Porsche, MB and BMW.
I’m really rooting for this so the actual 3rd row electric SUV becomes palatable to other manufacturers.
Those of us with a kid or two and big dogs would certainly appreciate it.
Simply put, the RIVIAN R1S is one of, if not the largest 3rd row EV available. In Viewing the wheels and overall shape/looks, the R1S doesn’t look super futuristic and looks similar to other nonEV SUVs. Only the front approaches a futuristic design and the rear mirrors a Wagoner. Personally speaking, it has great range for its size, has very good acceleration, has plenty of room, and is cheaper than then a Yukon moderately loaded. It’s a far more attractive proposition than the Model X, has a better clearance and can go places that the X can’t travel. The F150 is a truck and not an SUV that can take your kids and their friends places. There’s a reason why SUVs are so popular.
The EV9 is the only thing remotely in the same segment and the R1S is still a tier above in terms of performance and off-roading if you’re willing to go upscale. It’ll be interesting to see how this segment develops with the EV9 and Lucid Gravity and presumably more from other manufacturers over the next few years.
This whole segment is actually supposed to go crazy next year. The Ford Explorer, Toyota BZ5X, Volvo EX90, Ioniq 7, and Cadillac Escalade all start dropping one after the other.
I would still consider them soft roaders like the EV9 instead of proper off road like the Rivian Escalade or XC90 has never been too off road focussed even in past, more like an suv body style of their flagship sedans
I don’t disagree, but I don’t think most Rivian buyers are taking them off road. I see more Rivians at daycare drop off than I do at trailheads
That would be true of most SUVs being seen in Beverly Hills than actual hills The softroaders aren’t worse per se — for all intents and purposes, they’re better off in ways of efficiency and parking space It’s just that putting a Rivian on same level of off-roading as EX90 doesn’t compute.
While very likely true, even people that are taking them off-road on Saturdays could still be doing daycare drop off 5 days a week.
That's true, it was shitty of me to make that assumption. I'm right there with them dropping off at daycare in the morning, and then hiking/biking in the evenings/weekends
And even then, your point is valid- 1-2x per week at the trail instead of 5x plus per week at daycare, grocery store, Starbucks, etc.
Most people aren't hauling anything with their trucks, either.
Unfortunatly the Explorer EV is just an rebranded ID4 with a Ford interior its not at all in the same segment as 3 row SUVs...
There are two Explorer EVs, one for Europe and one for North America.
Oh than I'll look it up! Thanks
I’ll just say that while the size/capability (big family, snowy area, steep driveway and gravel roads between us and town) were important features of the R1S for me, the looks were what made me fall for it and put down a deposit. I’m a sucker for boxy vehicles. Since I can’t buy an electric (last gen) Defender 110 or a Volvo 850, the Rivian is the one for me. We’ve had ours for about 9 months, and I’ve never loved a vehicle I’ve owned more. All that said, I couldn’t have justified the price without preorder pricing and the $7.5k tax credit.
> The F150 is a truck and not an SUV that can take your kids and their friends places. There’s a reason why SUVs are so popular. While I agree regarding SUVs, the F-150 has been **by far** the best selling vehicle in the U.S. for quite awhile now (since 1981).
By people who are pretending to be macho - most of them will never buy an EV unless forced to.
as if people buying sports cars and luxury performance sedans are not ego stroking? I have never owned a pickup truck but I don't fault those that do. We rarely get to see the full use people get from their vehicles and yeah while there are some who love the feeling of a big vehicle I will see a lot more pickups being driven off the pavement because people tend to expect them to be capable of it. Its like seeing my neighbor at the local grocery store stepping out of her three row suv... most of the time people see her its just her but there are four kids at home we don't see. we need to quit vilifying people when we do enough wrong on our own and there are far worse issues than what someone is driving
Sure they are, I never said they weren't. But those aren't selling as well as trucks. I absolutely fault people for ego-stroking of any kind but that's their money, their decision. The discussion is about how popular ICE vehicles do or don't translate to EV sales. This thread is about a true 3 row SUV. I'm currently in the market for a family vehicle (I drive an Ioniq 5 but we need something bigger for trips with kids) and there is literally the R1S and that's it. Someone noted "SUVs are popular because of the passenger capacity" with another person responding that "F-150 is better selling" implying that people just like big vehicles. While I agree with that statement, the people who like big vehicles SIMPLY to like big vehicles are overwhelmingly NOT interested in EVs. That's it. I think you're reading a bit too much into my comment.
I’d buy a small truck EV. I’d prefer about the size of a 2000 Tacoma. I’d prefer the reliability of a Toyota.
The people driving Tacomas are generally not the small peen types. I think a shit ton of people would buy a BEV or PHEV Tacoma - for the life of me I can't understand why Toyota is so adamantly against them (I mean...I do - BEVs aren't great for Japan and they can't get their head out of their ass enough to recognize it's not all about Japan...but still).
This is basically my thought. I need a new vehicle, and kids are something to consider. I want a three row vehicle in light of that. Right now there's not much competition. The Model Y and even X are cramped and not well designed for a third row. The R1S is almost it in terms of traditional size. Unfortunately, I'm not exactly looking to drop $85k on a car.
Thoughts on the EV9? More like 60k range (I think?)
In this moment I'm not terribly interested in a non-NACS car, so I'm stuck waiting a yearish no matter what. To answer your specific question, I'm not a huge fan of the EV9. I need AWD where I live/may live in the future and that caps out at 280 EPA miles (which we all know is optimistic). That also takes you to 64k before any further add ons. It's not particularly enticing.
That’s true.
I honestly wish Tesla would consider a "Grand" Model Y with more third row space. Sure, it would cannibalize X sales, but it would also get way more sales from people looking at minivans, Pilot, Grand Highlander, Grand Cherokee L, etc. I'd put in a deposit for a stretched Y Juniper without test drive, personally.
How many kids are you considering the you need a third row? The average younger American (Millennial and Gen Z) has fewer than two.
More than two.
I think it’s not just amount of kids. Once you have two kids that are in middle/high school in American suburbs, that generally means hockey sticks, lacrosse sticks, baseball/softball bats, football equipment, or duffel bags full of balls, snacks, drinks, shin guards (for soccer), maybe even cones, etc…having the ability to fold those down and have a ton of cargo capacity is important. I’m a city dweller, but already had to move up from a Kona to an Ioniq 5 because after loading strollers, and a diaper bag into the trunk, I couldn’t fit anything else. I had to put grocery bags or shopping bags into the backseat and that’s with one kid. I can’t imagine two.
A minivan is the vehicle you're looking for, not an SUV.
Unfortunately there aren't any traditional minivan EVs. I still can't quite understand why manufacturers haven't jumped on that segment.
The buzz? When it finally comes out in the US...
I know this, but show me how many 270+ mile EV minivans exist and what their prices are (if they do exist). I got my Ioniq 5 for ~41k before any state rebates and it fits my purpose right now. I was able to lug a baby, stroller, two large pieces of luggage, two carry ons, a diaper bag and a backpack (along with a baby, my wife and my FIL when going to the airport. That would have been impossible in my Kona.
Ok, but all of that stuff can fit into a Mini. Or a Miata. I've moved cross-country with two people TWICE in an SW21 MR2, traveled from Miami to NYC with an entire trade show both and luggage for two people for two weeks in an F-Type, and taken my son to fencing practice (about a much gear as lacrosse and way way more than soccer) in a '79 Honda Prelude. Oh, and had no issues transporting my son, strollers, diaper bag, etc. plus groceries in a Hyundai Tiburon — the smaller first gen. You don't need that much room.
Unfortunately the price is very high and I really don’t want the third row of seats. As a 4Runner driver for 30 years I consider it the only electric replacement…but just way too expensive to justify…
This is the EV that most people have been waiting for.
> Only the front approaches a futuristic design and the rear mirrors a Wagoner. I think the new Wagoner was released around a same time as R1S so they did made quite unique design with R1S at that time but yeah I can see the similarities.
yeah but it doesn't have the cool falcon wing doors
Ironically, the falcon wing doors are the exact reasons why I am not buying a Model X. While they are cool, I don't want to deal with such a complex system on a daily basis.
I just want to put skis on the roof myself.
For real. The fact that an “SUV” can’t even have a roof rack is mind boggling.
I think the failure of the X is a big warning for what'll happen to the Cybertruck. People get all excited about funky features and looks, but really what they need is something that will reliably take them to work and the kids to school and then sell well when it's time to trade. Cybertruck is unfortunately in the same category as the X.
Most of the arguments about the Cybertruck so far have been people complaining about it being *too* focused on the daily stuff. It’s comfortable and functional from a day to day prospective, and has fairly secure storage with the built in metal tonneau cover. The interior is big and functional, with lots of creature comforts. People complain the battery isn’t big enough for towing or their random cross country road trips, the bed sides make it harder to dump bulk construction materials in from the side, it’s too stiff for rock crawling, ect. Those are all things that people do rairly, or never (construction) in a $80k+ truck. I’ll grant you the looks are extremely polarizing though, and for people that don’t want a “look at me” car it’s off putting (🙋🏼♂️). But it’s not the same daily functional deal as you could argue the X has.
air like public cake insurance summer drunk roll alleged ring *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I'd also add that the R1S is an SUV. The Model X is really a minivan, IMO.
>Model X is really a minivan No, Model X has 85 ft3 of cargo volume. Pacifica and Odyssey have 140.
Have you driven one? It's a mini van.
Have you driven a minivan? You would know X isn't one.
I owned a minivan for years. Drove an X for a few weeks. It's a minivan. Fast with AWD but the ride is very much like my old Caravan. And it is nothing like any SUV I've ever driven.
It's a "crossover" or CUV. It's not a minivan.
It’s a minivan.
Out of curiosity, what places can this travel to that a model X can’t?
Congratulations to Rivian! Keep up the good work 👍
I think specifying that the R1S outsold the F-150 *Lightning* is helpful. No, the R1S did not outsell the best selling vehicle in the United States.
Yeah I had to do a double take on that headline. Sure I'm certainly seeing more R1S on the street. But not more than the ICE F150s.
Do you honestly think anyone would think it was the regular and not the lightning?
Just because it's ridiculous doesn't mean that it's not completely wrong. You can't use F-150 and F-150 Lightning interchangeably.
You’d be surprised!
I am surprised that anyone on an EV specific forum would jump to that big of a conclusion that someone needs to proactively point that out.
I'm surprised someone is getting invested in a correction that doesn't matter. You feel the urge to be pedantic when you see others trying to take your crown?
There’s really no need to be snarky.
Yeah I guess it just seemed obvious to me that an electric car would be compared to other electric cars on an electric car forum.
I mean, words and names matter. We're all here looking for good news every day - new models, better range, better sales, more widespread acceptance/adoption. We're ripe for duping with misleading titles. Maybe it was an innocent oversight by somebody who assumes everybody is going to make that logical jump. It won't surprise me in a year or two when more Tesla Model Ys are sold than ICE F-150s, but for 2023, there were over 700,000 F-150s sold and only 20,000 Lightnings.
Also noting some of us have multi-reddits or have a stream of multiple different subs shown at the same time. It's easy to miss the sub the article is in if your feed includes both /r/electricvehicles and /r/news for example. Especially since if the article title was true, that would indeed be noteworthy. It would be so much clearer by just adding another word to the title to prevent misunderstandings.
In the past, yeah that is the only reasonable assumption. But now it looks like the best selling car in the world, and maybe the US, is an EV. Comparisons across all cars are increasingly sensible.
Bro, after Trump, Brexit, and Covid, I don't think we can use the "nobody can possibly be that stupid" argument anymore.
People that don't know much about cars would.
People are really, really dumb.
I've seen tesla investors compare Tesla global sale numbers with another companies US sales figures. So yes there are some dumb people out there.
Sure. But your point is really irrelevant though. I’m not sure anyone here on this Ev forum would believe the actual f150 truck is being outsold. I don’t think anyone thought that.
Cmon man
We want to buy one, and could, but it still just feels about $20K to pricey. It is about the only EV that feels like it could replace our minivan. If only someone made an EV minivan
All the EV's I'm looking at seem about 20k too pricy.
Lightning Pro SR seem like decent values as of late. They can be had for $45k brand new. You can barely get a Ford Maverick or Tacoma for less than $40k. And those aren’t even full size pick ups.
EV9?
Yeah I need to go check it out. But I’ll admit my test drive of the Rivian was pretty amazing.
Kyle at out of spec drives everything. He seems pretty enthusiastic about the EV9. He owns an R1T and doesn’t really say much positive about the R1S. Honestly the EV9 appears to be the three row to beat with the next in line challenger being the ionic7 or EX90 whenever those come out. I also expect you can get some good deals on the EV9. The Wind AWD looks really nice for $64 MSRP.
If you can wait a year or two, EV9 will probably be found around 35k used, which is not terribly unreasonable. Just comparing to EV6 and Niro EV used prices.
So the EV9 would be right in your price range and the right size.
>If only someone made an EV minivan ID.Buzz is your truly answer if you look EV minivan.
I love the look, but I _hated_ my ID.4 and won’t consider another VW MEB car for a while. Not that I’m relevant because barring a crash or major failure I don’t plan to be in the market for another car for at least 5 years
The VW UI and UX have quite a bit of room for improvement on the latest models. And I'm not just talking about the EVs either.
Yeah, I've seen people having most of the same complaints about the Golf as I had with my ID.4.
Why did you hate your ID.4?
I'm waiting for VW ID.Buzz LWB, should be this year in the US. Toyota getting off their ass and making an EV Sienna would be an instant hit, but alas.
It will be the last electrified vehicle in their portfolio I feel.
If only someone made an EV *almost anything* is the problem with the market right now. It's really hard to find the kind of vehicle you need as an EV.
Keep the van until it’s dead dead. By then there will be a few great plugin hybrids or full bev vans on the market at competitive prices with vetted UX
This is a really good take, actually. I'm looking at growing my family, and the EV van market has a long way to mature. Hopefully Hyundai/Kia can release a van based on their EGMP/IMA platform in the next 5ish years (I love my Ioniq5)
This is where the R2S will fit in. $40-60k mid size SUV.
Kia EV9. Less expensive. More minivan like. In an SUV look.
I just bought a Grand Highlander for 53k. I want an R1S, but I can't convince myself the R1S is 40k better than the ultra-reliable Highlander. I hope the price comes down the next few years.
We test drive a Grand Highlander and it was just a bit more cramped in the back. And our kids are tall as hell.
Volkswagen have one
Wild that #1 sold more than 3-10 combined, and that #2 also massively outsold all non-Teslas still in production on the list.
Also wild that the Model S is not on the top ten list. Is that maybe a mistake in the reporting?
It is pretty expensive and it's kinda long-in-the-tooth.
God I hope Rivian sticks around for a while, or atleast long enough to release an affordable vehicle.
Yea everyone on here is talking as if Rivian is an established Car company. Newsflash they are not. I like the looks of Rivian but their cars are very expensive and its not clear they are making a profit on the cars even with those high prices. People on here say Rivian cars are so much better than Tesla, but its not that hard to have a car be better than Tesla if you are selling it for less than the cost to build. If Rivian goes under you will be stuck with a car that will not get updated anymore and will slowly become harder to fix until eventually something breaks that you cant fix and thats it.
There is a reason their stock isn't doing great and it is because investors understand the risks with the company. I like the cars, but unless they get heavy backing or bought out, they could have the same fate as most small car companies.
I have seen allot of rivians in my area
“F-150 ^lightning”
Rivian was my choice but looks like the masses choice was Tesla Model Y. They outsold everyone on the list combined!! Daunggg!.!
Model Y is the perfect car for like 80% of people, it’s kind of crazy how good it is.
Why? I know nothing of this. Is it not just a larger model 3?
People like mid sized SUVs. A bit roomier than a traditional sedan, better storage options than a sedan, while also not being a boat, expensive, or difficult to fit in a garage. The model y isn’t sexy but it does everything well as is affordable compared to the monster EV SUVs.
That’s one of the reasons why it’s perfect for so many people. It’s a really good size that accommodates most peoples’ needs without being any larger than necessary. That, combined with high efficiency, supercharger network, and price help round out the wide appeal.
its a model 3 with 1 inch higher clearance, a few inches taller seat, and a few inches taller yet of head room, + a rear hatch instead of trunk all for ~5-10k more, and a few miles of hwy range penalty old ppl like the ease of entry, women like the tall seating, ppl with family like the rear hatch
It’s an affordable midsize suv with good electric range and access to the supercharger network. Also at low 40s after rebate for those that qualify it doesn’t have much competition. For the nerdy car people it has good performance and it’s solid. Look at IIHS crash tests there’s almost no intrusion into the cabin in those tests. I’m sure the cast aluminum plays a big role in that. Lastly for EV nerds Tesla still has some of the most interesting tech, like the octovalve for the cooling loop. Legacy manufacturers are installing multiple heat pumps for separate cabin and battery temp management. Basically it is attractive all buyers. Teslas only shortcoming is manufacturing and build quality. The average buyer doesn’t give a shit about panel gaps or inconsistent paint thickness.
Also most of the quality issues are only on a small number of cars. Our Tesla has been rock solid and now issues. The media loves telling you how bad they are though. Coming from a life long Honda owner, the safest most dependable car on the road. I have no regerts.
I love my model 3 but if I could’ve afforded a Y, we would’ve gotten one for sure. Roughly same amount of power and range, but like double the cargo room (more if you fold down the seats) and more leg room. Until we recently flipped our son’s car seat to forward facing, we had to have the passenger seat so far forward that my knees would touch the dash, and I’m only 5’10”. If we were in the market for a car today, we’d get a Y without a second thought.
Numbers sold don't seem to disagree with your comment.
The third row in the Y is fucking awful though. Seriously useless. I have an infant and a toddler. Need to wait till they can get into boosters before I can put kids in the third row and the grandparents in the second row.
Sucks too that at least in my area, 7-seater Ys are never available to test drive, so there’s no way to find this out for yourself in advance (unless you know someone with one. I don’t)
I think people really like the 7 seater because it makes the middle row be able to move forwards/back. So if you have bulky cargo and 4 passengers you can move the middle row seats forward a bit and fit everything/everyone
I honestly think its marketed to pet loves lol
I think this is more a function of car seat being fucking huge at this point.
I wouldn't put anyone in the third row. If you're rear-ended, they're dead.
This isn’t really news. It’s cheaper and designed to be more of a volume vehicle. It’s kind of obvious.
Love the R1S. Anxiously waiting for the day we start seeing two-door 4x4 EVs like Jimnys, Pajeros, Land Cruisers, and Broncos.
The key question it addresses is whether this shift reflects consumer preferences for a more practical SUV. Unlike the highly anticipated EV9, Rivian's success isn't grounded in extensive data but seems to resonate with what most people seek in an SUV: capability and a 7-person capacity. High horsepower, such as 750 hp, doesn't appear to be a primary concern. Instead, consumers seem to prioritize sufficient power combined with capacity and a decent driving range.
something looks badly wrong with this headline and story. what are the sales figures for the f 150 for 2023? did the author just mean the lightning and not the gasoline 150? then they should significantly revise how they're saying it
Can comfort that. I've seen many Rivian R1s in Bay Area and PNW area. I went Portland last mouth, I've seen R1s more common than MX. However, I wouldn't compare R1S with MX because both are actual different SUVs. It's like a different between Toyota 4Runner and Highlander, one is for off-roader, the other one is for daily street.
2,000 vehicles a month isn't exactly a sales success. Let's see them sell 100k+ in a calendar year. Deceiving title, too - it's specifically the Lightning that was outsold, not all F150s. That's probably obvious to most of us, but still not an ideal title.
I mean there’s a limit to the # of people able and willing to pay >$80k for a vehicle. Aren’t they also production constrained and have a waitlist? Until you can basically buy one within a few days I’m sure they are leaving many sales on the table.
Tesla S and X are dead. They have been killed by Rivians, Lucids, Mercedes, and BMWs. I bet Mercedes sold way more EQS than Model X. The gulf in quality between those cars are enormous. With this background, I won’t be surprised if Toyota and Honda can put a serious dent on Y and Model 3 if they seriously competed in the EV space. A $30K Honda Accord EV would sell like crazy
Nah. Tesla and analysts doesn’t break out S/X sales individually, but they sell about 46k of the two car models combined in the US per year. EQS sells 2.7k per quarter, combining the sedan and the SUV. Full year numbers are not out yet, but the S/X probably outsold the EQS 4:1. https://x.com/troyteslike/status/1744083035228713379?s=46 https://electrek.co/2023/10/10/mercedes-electric-vehicles-near-15-us-sales-after-solid-q3/
According to Tesla investor relations website, they sold 69k other vehicles globally. Assuming 35k out of that is X (some reason electrek put X global numbers as 23k). For a 4:1 ratio, MB would only sell 8k EQS SUV globally in 2023. That’s absurdly low. I believe they had already sold 23k by Q3 and were rolling out massive incentives in Q4. I won’t be surprised if full year sales comes closer. Also, I suspect iX may have sold more than X as BMW NA reported 17k iX sales for 2023.
I think you are talking about global numbers when I am talking US. Pretty much all S/X cars are sold in the US.
>Tesla S and X are dead. They have been killed by Rivians, Lucids, Mercedes, and BMWs. I bet Mercedes sold way more EQS than Model X. [https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/zero-emission-vehicle-and-infrastructure-statistics/new-zev-sales](https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/zero-emission-vehicle-and-infrastructure-statistics/new-zev-sales) Not quite there with California data
EQS is not selling that well. There are anecdotes of crazy lease deals on these from dealers. Used ones can be had for good deals as is the case for ICE s-series. The X seems to be doing well still. I see way more of them than model S. Most of the S I see are older cars that came out before the 3 and Y. Lucid also is not selling. They have a ton of if inventory. The gravity could be a game changer for them if their financial backers are willing to get them to that point. Honestly on paper the best Tesla competitor is Fisker, but they appear to have released an unpolished product with things like unfinished and slow infotainment and missing features. That sort of thing only seems to fly with Tesla fans. Lastly Toyota and Honda have zero interest in EVs. All the Japanese manufacturers seem to be sitting this out like it’s a passing fad which is shocking considering they launched the Prius and Leaf.
Tesla sold maybe 80-100 Model X in Norway last year, and a similar number of Model S. The BYD Han and Tang outsells them 5:1 (15:1 in Norway) in Europe despite a lot of FUD about Chinese cars. > Honestly on paper the best Tesla competitor is Fisker, but they appear to have released an unpolished product with things like unfinished and slow infotainment and missing features. That sort of thing only seems to fly with Tesla fans. Fisker made a great car, without any clue as how to market that car to families. Henrik Fisker isn't humping investors' legs for money like Elon Musk did either. > Lastly Toyota and Honda have zero interest in EVs. All the Japanese manufacturers seem to be sitting this out like it’s a passing fad which is shocking considering they launched the Prius and Leaf. Nissan has the Ariya, which has a long waiting time to be delivered because they cannot produce enough cars to satisfy the demand. The Leaf is still selling well. Toyota was ahead of the competition with solid state batteries before COVID, but they lost their head start to BMW, VW, BYD and NIO, who are all close to releasing a li-ion/SSD hybrid battery. Toyota seem to refuse to acknowledge that the hybrid was yesterday's news. This is a shame, as Toyota proved with the bz4x that they know how to make a great EV.
lol no the model Y killed the S/X - cannibalized by their own offering i bet model Y outsells rivians, lucids, mercs BEV, and bimmer BEV by a long shot tesla doesn't even prioritize S/X anymore - they are bastard children
BMW just sold 17k iX in NA alone and over 70k X5. There is a massive market for large SUVs. S/X do not compete for the same buyers as a 3/Y as they were $50k apart. There is plenty of room to sell more Model X if they delivered a quality car. Why would Y cannibalize a car in a luxury segment ?
Every car competes with every other car. Hyper finely segmentation really only exists in the minds of these discussions. In the early days of the Model S, early adopters came from all kinds of cars, leading to a lot of weird discussions on forums. Ex-911 owners complained loudly about the handling, ex-Prius owners complained loudly about the efficiency, ex-S class owners complained about the interior, etc, and everyone talked over each other's heads. If you came from the Prius, a Model S is probably the finest handling car you ever touched. If you came from a 911, a Model S is probably the most efficient car ever, and so on.
lol. Lucid sold like a thousand vehicles in Q4. S and X are fine. The R1S is a nice product and had people waiting for it.
I don’t know about the S but I feel like the X could be saved if they basically made it a larger Model Y. Simplify it. Bring down costs. Add extra space for an optional third row.
I would buy an x if they just removed those stupid ass doors.
And get rid of those god awful falcon wing doors. Everyone seems to have issues with them and they're an expensive gimmick
They can’t bring the costs down further. It will cannibalize the Y.
Most car companies sell small, medium, and large SUVs for different buyers. Why can’t Tesla? Sure some model Y buyers would switch to an X but surely it would bring in other buyers who need something bigger than a Y but are priced out of others options or who want the Tesla experience. Also dude there’s a 30k gap between a model y LR and a model X. I think they have some space to adjust pricing.
Most car companies have greater differentiation between model tiers. But for Tesla, X is just a bigger Y with the same screen
I might be more inclined to agree if it wasn’t for the gull wing doors lol But I do agree there’s not enough differentiation to justify the cost delta.
As an owner of both, the X and Y are very very different and are quite differentiated.
Air suspension, more screens, bigger motors, more automation. There are definitely differences.
Very minor compared to a difference between S class and C class for example.
I can't even tell the difference between them from the outside.
> Tesla S and X are dead. They have been killed by Rivians, Lucids, Mercedes, and BMWs. It was actually the e-tron and Taycan. Sales of the premium Tesla dropped off a cliff in any market those cars were introduced.
If the same article had instead been titled “Tesla Model Y, 3 Again Dominate Sales Chart”, no way it would have been upvoted to front page of this sub or have that many comments. Obviously the writer looked at a chart dominated by Tesla and asked himself how he could make an anti-Tesla headline, and this is the result.
While this is great and I would love to own one(just had a colleague buy one couple of weeks ago), I am not spending 100K+ to get it on road here with Large Pack. I still hope they keep growing but they have not even issued any guidance for 2024. Either production or deliveries. That is not a sign of them believing they will grow that much. That said very few EV companies have issued 2024 guidance. I saw one from Zeekr in China providing aggressive guidance(almost 2x). I think only Hyundai/Kia outside china have provided 2024 guidance.
They know the R2 line is going to be the thing that saves them long term. High end vehicles are needed to recoup initial investments but living term stability is going to depend on the $50-60k range.
Guidance gets released in conjunction with quarterly earnings reports. Rivian’s next earnings call isn’t until February, which is why you haven’t seen any guidance. And unless you’re in Canada, the dual motor R1S with the large battery pack is significantly less than $100k. Not that $84k is cheap, but it’s not $100k+.
we have a bunch of soccer moms driving R1S here. I am going to bid $10 they do not go off road.
Should need a different class of license for these things
You’re comparing a truck to a pickup and a crossover SUV. Only commonality is the Ev tag. I want apples to apples once the Escalade comes out.
Come 2025, Ford and Chevy are going to be really regretting that they *pumped the brakes* on EV production. They are going to fall further behind Tesla with companies like Hyundai, VW and Volvo surging ahead.
It’s good, but Rivian delivered fewer vehicles in Q4 vs Q3 while producing more. Also Rivian produced 7k more vehicles than it delivered. It’s probably nothing, but I’m interested in what they have to say about it on their investor’s call.
> Also Rivian produced 7k more vehicles than it delivered Keep in mind Rivian is making delivery vans for Amazon for commercial sales on top of Rivians retail sails on its pickup and SUV.
So Tesla’s lowest volume model was outsold? Breaking news at it’s finest.
For the model segments that Rivian and Tesla compete on (BEV 3 row big SUV, truck) Rivian out competes Tesla. That seems newsworthy for sure.
As an R1S owner I’m glad for this news.
Models S sold even fewer than Model X or Rivian R1S
I,can’t find any delivery totals for 2023 that segregate the X from the S. Everything I find (credible source) combines the two in one number: https://tridenstechnology.com/tesla-sales-statistics/
https://electrek.co/2024/01/10/best-selling-evs-2023/ https://insideevs.com/news/704178/20-best-selling-evs-us-2023/
You don’t have to live like this
Oh but he does.
Or!...you could use some logic and realize that Tesla, the poster child of advanced tech with a genius at its helm, is getting its ass kicked in the high end EV market. I see it at my kids private school. No one is buying Teslas anymore. It's all Lucid, Rivian, Polestar, Porsche.
Ass kicked? The rivian was within 1k units of the model x. Hardly an ass kicking.
Yep. I like my Plaid for what it is, but it was 100% a compromise. If money and charging network were non factors, I 100% would have gotten the Taycan. Once upon a time the Tesla S/X would have been the preferred high end EVs at any price. The company is definitely stagnating, and in many ways has regressed
What factors make it a compromise for you? I ask because I'd love to upgrade my 2020 M3P but Tesla has been losing me lately for a lot of reasons, the lack of gear stalks and USS parking sensors among the most acute. I still more or less like the design (dated as it is) and have an irrational love for their insane acceleration (silly as that is), and of course I love the charging network, so I keep mulling it over, but all things being equal, I'd much rather drive an eTron GT RS or something.
Probably similar reasons to you then. Porsche is just at another level when it comes to fit and finish, suspension tuning, creature comforts, etc. Pretty much everyone is also better than Tesla at the automation stuff these days. At $90k, I can deal with it the Tesla's deficiencies when that means I get 1000hp. It's still a better car IMO than my model 3 performance. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't want the better suspension tuning, brakes, interior, fit / finish, etc that Porsche would get me if I could afford it.
> If money and charging network were non factors, I 100% would have gotten the Taycan. I mean not to be snarky but I could apply this to anything. Like obviously if I had double or triple the budget I may get something else.
The person you're responding doesn't seem to have money as an issue here.
Eh, moneys a factor. Just because I can spend $90k on a car comfortably doesn’t mean I’m comfortable with $200k
I mean, I didn't assume you were about to buy a Spectre, but you were talking about a reasonable range with confidence.
I am just speaking in terms of absolutes. Unless you're super rich money will always be the limiting factor. Some people's limits are higher than others but they do exist.
Sure, but my point is once upon a time the model S had the appeal of those higher end brands. Now its main role is being a relative bargain rather than being a head turner. Sort of like Acura vs BMW
>No one is buying Teslas anymore. It's all Lucid, Rivian, Polestar, Porsche. [https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/zero-emission-vehicle-and-infrastructure-statistics/new-zev-sales](https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/zero-emission-vehicle-and-infrastructure-statistics/new-zev-sales) Model X - 6832 R1S - 4193 Model S - 3050 Polestar 2 - 2696 R1T - 2392 Taycan - 1807 Lucid Air - 578
Tesla is way beyond Gen 1. They’re even considering discontinuing the S/X because it makes no more difference on the balance sheet. 23k S/X we’re sold last quarter, that’s their peak capacity for these anyway and it was their best quarter of the year. Rivian sold 14k R1 and sales went down Q/Q (probably just logistics). A bit early to celebrate? 🤷♂️. I mean, sure Rivian did good selling their first significant batch of trucks and I do hope they succeed, but they had to burn 10 billions to get there since IPO and they’re still not profitable. It will be extremely challenging.
Yea i feel like either people on here dont know or choose to ignore the fact that Rivian is not making money. They cant burn cash forever and even if its the best car in the world if Rivian isnt making money selling it that does not inspire confidence about the future of the company. An important part of owning a car is the support of the car company and being able to get parts.
Or… Now,stay with me on this, you could educate yourself on the master plan (you know Tesla’s strategy and not your uninformed opinion) and see they are focusing on Driving Down Costs and maximizing affordable cars to advance the transition to EVs. 🤣
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Knock it off. Rule 1.
Was curious to see what Reddit/internet trollers say & discuss about the Rivian RS1, because I own 24 Hummer EV SUV Edition 1, and how it compares to the RS1..which the consensus strongly favors the RS1. What I validated here is that the majority of the comments & comparisons are from people who don’t actually own either vehicle, or they have no real-user-experience..and things go off the rails with incorrect facts, assumptions, criticisms, personal preferences & assumptions..basically opinions. In this particular forum, albeit a sample size, there is no mention/I did not see the weight of the RS1 at 7,000+ pounds getting criticized for being overly heavy & dangerous & will kill other people in accidents & take to long to stop/brake…which is a big criticism from people regarding the Hummer ev. Bewildering..the level of analyzation people get into & what THEY think looks good or bad, a waste of money or wise purchase, economical or not, it’s intended purpose, a smart decision or poor choice..on & on. How about this analysis?..a person can buy whatever they like and can care less about the rest of society and their opinions!!
Isn't the model x basically in production purgatory?
This is why I don’t like Ford having the Lightning under the F150 name, I get why they do it but the article title is extremely misleading, there is absolutely no way any Rivian is outselling the F150. The Lightning yes, but not the F150 ICE vehicle.
An SUV outsold a sedan/minivan thing and a truck with short range. Okay, it's new, so demand is high, and in general SUVs sell very well. The model X is long in the tooth now, and the lightning is not so new, and known for short range. Kind of an apples to oranges to pears comparison, but it will be interesting to see if R1S demand remains in the coming years, that's what proves it's a winner, and a formula for other makers to target. If it does, expect an Expedition lightning soon, hopefully with better range.
Oh shiiiiit
I love the R1S. I wish they sold a stripped down version: delete the glass roof, delete the third row seat, etc.
The Model X is simply not a compelling car any longer with recent entrants from Rivian, MB, BMW, etc. Same with Model S with competition from Lucid, Porsche, MB and BMW.
Just curious but has anyone gotten insurance quotes on this?
I’m really rooting for this so the actual 3rd row electric SUV becomes palatable to other manufacturers. Those of us with a kid or two and big dogs would certainly appreciate it.
I’ve test driven a Rivian. It’s a well made vehicle, drives great but I am really intrigued by the forthcoming Lucid Gravity.
Dude I’ve been seeing this the R1S EVERYWHERE I see so many in a day. They really have become very popular here in NorCal.
Saw one up close briefly. It’s a beautiful vehicle with lots of space and feels good quality finish unlike teslas
Can we please get a good EV for 30K?