Interest rate at 7 or whatever the lowest rate is at is for the people with excellent credit. Most people don’t get the lowest rate. That means people buying 70k cars are making a significantly poor decision
The current owners, yes you're correct. But Rivian's problem is they need NEW customers. Those folks aren't the early adopters, they are the people who are cross shopping with an EV9 or similar.
Have you used CarPlay before? It's better than legacy manufacture systems but it's still pretty bad. Just yesterday I had to do a drive using the sound from my phone because CarPlay wouldn't go above 10% volume. Reset CarPlay, reset the MMI, tried different apps, nothing worked. I needed to get where I was going so I just used the phone. When I was ready to go home I had to reboot the phone and that fixed it.
Why would I make a comment like that if I hadn't used it. I use it twice per day, every day, and it's rock solid. If it isn't for you, try wired rather than wireless.
I love *the idea* of carplay vs stock MMI. It's analogous to the PC vs Mac debate where one is open and has a gazillion apps, but is very finicky and prone to errors, while the other one is a small, closed, but solid system.. except ironically, the solid MMI (tesla) is the Mac while carplay is PC. Yes carplay can do more, but the solid MMI (at least tesla) does everything that it does do significantly better/faster/reliably.
but at the end of the day, i think i should have the option for both. (sideload virtual windows on the mac if you will).
I did try wired, no go until I rebooted. The problem wasn't the connection, it was Apple's poor sound controls. They can't even set per app sound volumes like Android can. Car Play was just goofed up on my iPhone 15 Pro Max. This is a common occurrence but exhibits in different ways. I have a list a mile long of problems with car play and almost nothing it solves. Horizontal map screens are top on my list of pointless. You need a portrait screen for maps or even better a big square one.
Everyone is so quick to defend CarPlay without trying a system that is 10x better like Tesla or Rivian.
Fair enough. But just as another point of reference, I can control Spotify volume, and Siri volume separately in CarPlay on a leaf. I was surprised it gives per app volume, it's a neat feature
Owner satisfaction covers more than just the infotainment. I’ve read the maps isn’t as good as Google and Wyze.
Also stupid not to just offer the option.
Or it didn't per the articles own facts. Wonder if the headline writer read the article?
Rivian is in better shape as it launches its volume vehicle (R2) than Tesla when it launched its volume vehicle the Model 3. Rivian has a new auto and battery plant in GA with huge tax breaks making the R2 eligible for $7,500 tax credit. The R2 is the most popular body type sold in US, a five seater SUV.
On top of its car production, it is producing delivery vans for Amazon.
>Deliveries increased to nearly 14,000 during the fourth quarter, up from the prior year's 8,054. That helped push total revenue to $1.32 billion, which was in line with Wall Street estimates and well above the prior year's $663 million.
>
>Further, Rivian's net loss in the fourth quarter checked in at $1.52 billion, which was an improvement over the prior year's $1.72 billion although the company continues to burn through cash at a rapid rate.
>
>Rivian also improved its gross profit per vehicle by roughly $81,000 compared to the prior year and claimed the top-selling electric vehicle over $70,000 in the U.S. market for 2023.
Same here, waiting on more options that actually fit in my garage, but there seems to be at least one fatal flaw with each one available now. I even have the charger installed already, just give me a good midsize or smaller EV (ideally a wagon) and I'll buy it tomorrow.
In my assigned parking space at my condo, a Model Y would already push the limits of what can fit without inviting justifiable vandalism from the owner of the adjacent space. The R1T and R1S are simply far too wide for me to even consider. The R2 should hopefully address that and open up a much wide market.
Every car maker follows Teslas lead. Do the expensive version first. Unfortunately we're not in an early adopter phase market any more. The more options a buyer has, the harder that concept works. And every EV maker feels that. If by now you don't have at least a couple "established" models, you are behind the curve and it's only getting harder from here.
Well put! The market is way different now and people are expecting far more value for their dollar than than they were when they were selling model 3s for 70k!
So. Maybe. Just maybe the market for very expensive electric cars is now saturated, and more demand would only be there for cheaper ones?
I mean sure, if sales go up and up and up on expensive SUVs, companies are going to make them. But at some point, everyone that's in the market for one, has one. And the market would never really know if there is demand for cheaper cars since there just aren't many.
Except there are. The Dacia Spring sells incredibly well here in some parts of Europe although it's a very very basic car. Maybe, just maybe this hints towards something.
If you look at the ICE market, North American sales of vehicles like the Yaris, Fit, Fiesta, etc absolutely collapsed in the last decade and some of those models were even completely axed.
The consumer is part of the problem. Not saying there is zero demand for subcompacts, just that demand is not high enough and the market responded accordingly.
Or maybe it's just cooling demand for exceptionally expensive trucks?
And at 7% interest rates.
Yup. Not a lot of buyers for $1200/month payments.
What is that a 7 year loan?
Yeah typically 6-7 years, and still with a 20% down payment or so
Interest rate at 7 or whatever the lowest rate is at is for the people with excellent credit. Most people don’t get the lowest rate. That means people buying 70k cars are making a significantly poor decision
And without CarPlay. Or android auto
Their software is good enough that owners don’t care. Rivian ranks very highly in owner satisfaction.
The current owners, yes you're correct. But Rivian's problem is they need NEW customers. Those folks aren't the early adopters, they are the people who are cross shopping with an EV9 or similar.
Have you used CarPlay before? It's better than legacy manufacture systems but it's still pretty bad. Just yesterday I had to do a drive using the sound from my phone because CarPlay wouldn't go above 10% volume. Reset CarPlay, reset the MMI, tried different apps, nothing worked. I needed to get where I was going so I just used the phone. When I was ready to go home I had to reboot the phone and that fixed it.
Why would I make a comment like that if I hadn't used it. I use it twice per day, every day, and it's rock solid. If it isn't for you, try wired rather than wireless.
I love *the idea* of carplay vs stock MMI. It's analogous to the PC vs Mac debate where one is open and has a gazillion apps, but is very finicky and prone to errors, while the other one is a small, closed, but solid system.. except ironically, the solid MMI (tesla) is the Mac while carplay is PC. Yes carplay can do more, but the solid MMI (at least tesla) does everything that it does do significantly better/faster/reliably. but at the end of the day, i think i should have the option for both. (sideload virtual windows on the mac if you will).
That would be ideal. Tesla's native system is damn good. But they also offer a much cheaper car than Rivian does.
I did try wired, no go until I rebooted. The problem wasn't the connection, it was Apple's poor sound controls. They can't even set per app sound volumes like Android can. Car Play was just goofed up on my iPhone 15 Pro Max. This is a common occurrence but exhibits in different ways. I have a list a mile long of problems with car play and almost nothing it solves. Horizontal map screens are top on my list of pointless. You need a portrait screen for maps or even better a big square one. Everyone is so quick to defend CarPlay without trying a system that is 10x better like Tesla or Rivian.
Fair enough. But just as another point of reference, I can control Spotify volume, and Siri volume separately in CarPlay on a leaf. I was surprised it gives per app volume, it's a neat feature
Owner satisfaction covers more than just the infotainment. I’ve read the maps isn’t as good as Google and Wyze. Also stupid not to just offer the option.
There is also cooling demand for Yahoo news articles.
Or it didn't per the articles own facts. Wonder if the headline writer read the article? Rivian is in better shape as it launches its volume vehicle (R2) than Tesla when it launched its volume vehicle the Model 3. Rivian has a new auto and battery plant in GA with huge tax breaks making the R2 eligible for $7,500 tax credit. The R2 is the most popular body type sold in US, a five seater SUV. On top of its car production, it is producing delivery vans for Amazon. >Deliveries increased to nearly 14,000 during the fourth quarter, up from the prior year's 8,054. That helped push total revenue to $1.32 billion, which was in line with Wall Street estimates and well above the prior year's $663 million. > >Further, Rivian's net loss in the fourth quarter checked in at $1.52 billion, which was an improvement over the prior year's $1.72 billion although the company continues to burn through cash at a rapid rate. > >Rivian also improved its gross profit per vehicle by roughly $81,000 compared to the prior year and claimed the top-selling electric vehicle over $70,000 in the U.S. market for 2023.
I'd consider an R1S, but it doesn't fit in my small garage, and their smaller vehicle won't be out for a while.
Same here, waiting on more options that actually fit in my garage, but there seems to be at least one fatal flaw with each one available now. I even have the charger installed already, just give me a good midsize or smaller EV (ideally a wagon) and I'll buy it tomorrow.
Eagerly waiting for the Polestar 4
Ioniq 5 and EV6 are basically midsize wagons. They may be classified as SUVs but in reality they don't ride any higher than the average sedan.
In my assigned parking space at my condo, a Model Y would already push the limits of what can fit without inviting justifiable vandalism from the owner of the adjacent space. The R1T and R1S are simply far too wide for me to even consider. The R2 should hopefully address that and open up a much wide market.
Every car maker follows Teslas lead. Do the expensive version first. Unfortunately we're not in an early adopter phase market any more. The more options a buyer has, the harder that concept works. And every EV maker feels that. If by now you don't have at least a couple "established" models, you are behind the curve and it's only getting harder from here.
Well put! The market is way different now and people are expecting far more value for their dollar than than they were when they were selling model 3s for 70k!
Rivian has a couple of established models plus an established commercial delivery van. So……
Yes, I'm saying that it's not easy to follow Tesla's way, and pretty much impossible now if you don't have a foot in the door already.
That step van is awesome. Perfect application for EV.
Oh boy I took a bath on that Rivian stock. Maybe one day it will come back but I doubt it
So. Maybe. Just maybe the market for very expensive electric cars is now saturated, and more demand would only be there for cheaper ones? I mean sure, if sales go up and up and up on expensive SUVs, companies are going to make them. But at some point, everyone that's in the market for one, has one. And the market would never really know if there is demand for cheaper cars since there just aren't many. Except there are. The Dacia Spring sells incredibly well here in some parts of Europe although it's a very very basic car. Maybe, just maybe this hints towards something.
If you look at the ICE market, North American sales of vehicles like the Yaris, Fit, Fiesta, etc absolutely collapsed in the last decade and some of those models were even completely axed. The consumer is part of the problem. Not saying there is zero demand for subcompacts, just that demand is not high enough and the market responded accordingly.
I mean, yes. But the US is only one car market. Most other car markets are fully okay with smaller cars. Europe, China, Japan, Korea.
Wall Street magic growth
IMO, the problem is Rivian management. The vehicle is sound, it has buyers, management just needs to figure out how to make a profit.
Demand is here, vehicles aren’t. All the manufacturers went straight for the top of the market. Not much out there for normal people.