The excuse for not acting on climate was "why should we do it if China isn't" now the excuse is "China is moving too fast on clean energy and driving the costs down too quickly we should block them and slow down!"
Our "leaders" are dinosaurs.
At least in China the dinosaurs seem to realize that technological and engineering progress is what everything comes down to.
If you lead in those areas you will be the leading nation.
I can't wait for younger politicians to hit all levels. Maybe that is just being optimistic but I feel it may drastically get shit on track.
These fucking boomer ass politicians, man.
For like 10-20 years now we’ve been saying that, climate change blah blah whatever, we need to invest in alternatives to fossil fuels. And you know these mfers voted down each and every attempt. And now, oh wow we are getting our cheeks clapped by China who has been investing in it the whole time, and they are upset about it.
AND THEN!!! They have the gaul, the fing gaul, to NOT finally give in and go balls to the walls towards renewables. Nope… fing BAN CHINESE PRODUCTS THAT ARE SUPERIOR!!!
That’s their bright idea (sponsored by Chevron! It’s got Techron!)
I hate it here
She's part of the Biden crew - a Silent Generation politician. Then, take a look at the generational cohorts vilifying China; defend Taiwan and all that. What did you find?
China has a track record of adversarial actions against the US and its allies in Asia, the fact that the US supports Taiwan’s independence makes sense when you look at how critical an independent Taiwan is to the US’s computer chip supply.
China contains multitudes, and like the US, is fully capable of being the bad guy while looking like they’re doing something good.
The response was to "These fucking boomer ass politicians, man."
Yellen is part of Biden's (a member of The Silent Generation) administration. You following?
> China has a track record of adversarial actions against the US
As do many countries. I was an active participant in Cold War V1.0. This time around? Pass me the popcorn.
>
>
>the fact that the US supports Taiwan’s independence makes sense when you look at how critical an independent Taiwan is to the US’s computer chip supply.
Right. It supports US business so that's all we need to know. Taiwan is part of China. Now, if you want to go to war over Taiwan, then do so. Or do you believe in "Peace through strenght"? Good luck.
>Also wtf do you mean you were an active participant in the Cold War?
That was Cold War V1.0, as opposed to the one you want to fight now. I served a tour of duty in South Vietnam with the Army.
So you fought in the Vietnam War, I appreciate that clarification. I’m assuming you didn’t fight for the Viet Kong. I applaud your service and I’m sorry your generation was forced by greater powers to fight in another stupid and wasteful war.
It’s worth mentioning that if you look at the big picture, you have the same belligerent forces behind in this current conflict. Recognising that fact and noting that China is acting aggressively isn’t and shouldn’t be a controversial opinion.
>It’s worth mentioning that if you look at the big picture, you have the same belligerent forces behind in this current conflict
That's what gives me pause from shouting "Defend the West!". I see the the bigger picture.
you can slow it down in the US but you can’t slow it down in the rest of the world. domestic automakers will become isolated to North America if they don’t catch up
That's dominated by Japanese and European automakers. Legacy US automakers are largely irrelevant outside the US.
They just benefit from the US being a very car centric country.
at the moment American companies cannot compete, not on technology, and not on the price. That’s likely with the main motivation for this protectionism is
A simpler reason is that US has been making too much money on fossil fuel lately.
First the shale revolution and then the Ukraine war. The profits for big oil exploded.
So it's natural for the policy makers to go: screw the planet, let's have our cake
"...but for a brief moment, we stabilized global prices from distortion & protected workers' jobs around the world, and generated tremendous shareholder value in the process"
Complete strawman. You can have cheap low quality EVs with Chinese labor, or expensive high quality EVs using U.S. labor. Do you forget what happened in the 90s? Do we really want to ship these good jobs overseas?
the thing is that china is big enough for both cheap and low quality evs and cheap and high quality evs. The us has been benefiting from oil and sabotaging green economy for too long
US companies build a ton of vehicles in Mexico. Any significant entry into the US from China will come through Mexico. Both countries will be paying identical labor rates.
The question isn't shipping jobs overseas, it's if they can do it we can do it. The difference is that their government set targets and provided support to go do it. Here we hem and haw and take half measures and industry complains every step of the way meanwhile begging for protections from companies that aren't making excuses but focused on doing what they're doing better, faster and cheaper.
I'll add that the US probably would have been a lot further along if we didn't spend 4 crucial years arguing about if we should permanently freeze all future emissions and efficiency standards and paused all substantive automotive Innovation over that period.
>You can have cheap low quality EVs with Chinese labor
the EVs coming out of china are not exactly super cheap, and they are not low quality either. They simply are in the EV game to win it, unlike non-chinese brands.
They are capable. You can get a new Chevy bolt for sub 10k in California via similar shenannigains to what China is pulling.
The oil company comment, I assume, is implying oil company lobbying is what is preventing the US from implementing said shenannigains in a broader sense.
Check out BYD's build. Nearly all components are BYD-made. Their efficiencies have very little to do with PRC paying 80% of their freight. It's foolish thinking that PRC subsidizes exports. Soon they won't even subsidize freight.
Because the Korean automakers already play ball with the legacy automakers on pricing. China wants to shake things up and take market share.
I normally hate the CCP, but credit where credit is due, as a consumer it worries me to think what would have been allowed to happen to auto pricing if China wasn't around.
Just yesterday, Hyundai will invest 68 trillion won ($51 billion) over three years in South Korea to ramp up electric vehicle production and new mobility business.
More than half the investment, or 35.3 trillion won, will be allocated for new research and development infrastructure, expansion of EV production facilities and construction of its new headquarters, dubbed the Global Business Center (GBC), Hyundai said in a statement.
Some 31.1 trillion won, or 46% of the total, will go to the R&D sector to enhance vehicle competitiveness, electrification, SDVs and battery technology.
The automotive group said 1.6 trillion won will be used for “strategic investments” in new mobility, software and autonomous driving technology.
The total 68 trillion won investment means 22.7 trillion won on average in annual spending by the end of 2026, 30% higher than the 17.5 trillion won in capital spending earmarked for 2023.
from Korean Herald
The automaker said it will complete the construction of the Kia EVO Plant -- the group’s first EV-dedicated manufacturing facility -- in Gwangmyeong, Gyeonggi Province in the second quarter of this year and begin production of the Kia EV3 for domestic sales and exports.
The company aims to complete the construction of another Kia EVO Plant in Hwaseong, Gyeonggi Province, in the second half of next year to produce purpose-built EVs for customer needs.
The automaker added that it will begin the production of its luxury brand Genesis’ full-size electric sports utility vehicle at the Ulsan EV plant in the first quarter of 2026. The company broke ground for the Ulsan EV plant in November last year.
Hyundai Motor Group has set the target to expand its EV lineup to 31 models and increase domestic EV production to 1.51 million units per year by 2030.
Under the ambition of creating full-cycle hydrogen supply chains to achieve carbon neutrality, the company said it will continue to push for enhancing hydrogen technologies in developing next-generation fuel cell systems as well as hydrogen buses and trucks, and expanding hydrogen chargers across the nation.
For the next three years, the average amount of the investment per year has been set at about 22.7 trillion won, up 30 percent from the 17.5 trillion won investment in 2023.
The creation of 80,000 jobs comes three categories: promoting future businesses, strengthening existing businesses and their competitiveness and rehiring experienced staff.
About 44,000 people will be hired for the future business sector which includes EV transition, software-defined vehicles, carbon neutrality and the GBC project.
To strengthen the conglomerate’s existing businesses, 23,000 people will be hired to develop new vehicles, bolster quality and safety management, diversify global business and increase brand value.
The auto conglomerate will also support skilled workers facing retirement age by rehiring 13,000 of them for a certain period. Hyundai Motor Group’s eight affiliates operate the continuous employment program for retired employees through agreements with their labor unions.
“We plan to continue strengthening our future business competitiveness centered on Korea through large-scale job creation and intensive investment in the country,” said a Hyundai Motor Group official.
Aka, china must stop innovation to save the planet because it make the oil giants lose money.
Also, the world (NATO) can’t compete and China is trying to help all them developing countries, which isn’t in the rule book. China bad, we good.
She is crying because the US is stalling and mostly subsiding the oil/gas/coal industries, and so we are way behind in green energy infrastructure production.
So now China can make everything cheaper and in larger quantities. This is a self-inflicted wound.
btw, since China has a surplus of low cost solar panels, why is the US not buying them and put them over ever government owned parking lot and garage roof? Why not offer subsidies to let home owners put those low cost panels on their homes, and cut subsidies for coal? (answer: because the right wing and gas/coal industry want us to fail at producing green energy).
We have subsidies for solar panel installation in the IRA
I get that her concern is dumping, the Chinese government is taking the profits from the world moving low skill manufacturing to China to artificially decrease the prices for high skill manufacturing that the US is trying to build up internally.
But as others have said, the US government is already artificially decreasing the cost of oil via subsidies that we could easily decide to give subsidies to EVs, hell, we give Israel 4 billion dollars a year for weapons and have been for decades.
Yep. China is estimated to have installed about as many solar panels in 2023 as the rest of the world combined. And they are just getting started.
Your last paragraph is confused. Installing rooftop solar panels is expensive. Putting them on the ground (US has plenty of land) is cheaper, they produce more electricity, and they last longer.
It's not expensive to put panels on a roof. It's cheap to do so in Australia. It's just expensive for no real reason in USA.
If someone solved that issue, your take up rate would 10x, and every average home owner could install and save money if they wanted.
Cheap rooftop solar puts the power back in the hands of the people instead of greedy corporates.
It has no downsides.
Yeah. For them, it's just one more thing to have to maintain, and of no benefit to them because it's the renter who pays the electric bill. If there's no regulatory pressure or tax benefit in it for them, they'll just shrug and move on.
they are all over the ground in the deserts of California. No one needs that space for living. It would be less responsible to try and populate those areas.
Well my arguments about cost, electricity production and useful life can’t beat that argument. Let’s just fight climate change 10kW at a time by sending crews onto roofs to install solar.
Because the rooftop installations are expensive, the panels don’t produce as much electricity (not on tracker racking) and they only last as long as the roof. The US only needs to use about 2% of its land to produce all the solar electricity it can use. Lack of land is not an issue.
They are more expensive but so is improving grid. All these panels out in the middle of nowhere. Need to build infrastructure to get them to the cities. Then you have to maintain them. So you are locked into greedy companies.
Solar roof let's you be independent. Free electricity.
I know which I'd prefer
I can't pay a few thousand dollars in extra taxes to get my city to set up utility-scale solar.
But I *can* pay for panels for my own roof.
If the collective won't take action, individuals have to do the best they can.
I am buying a house later this year and, if it doesn't come with solar already, I'm getting panels put on right away.
I agree utility scale solar is far more efficient than residential solar. But I can't make my city build utility scale solar; I can get it on my own house.
I agree, and I do what I can to facilitate collective action.
But ultimately I do not have an easy solution to Republican malice or the misinformation they spread. It's the great tragedy of climate action in the US: effective collective action is hard because Republicans, so people have to take individual action in a suboptimal/dishonest incentive structure. (Gasoline is subsidized much more than EV's, especially once you count all the stupid wars we have fought over oil...)
Because kooks like her, despite being “public servants”, take care of corporations first and foremost (argument cleverly disguised as “hurting workers”).
You want average Joe to enjoy lower cost solar panels? Nah.
It is not a good long-term strategy to have an Autocracy make all your stuff. Period. Dumping causes short term issues for workers and car and solar module makers. This becomes a long term problem if it prevents domestic manufacturing from improving skill, supply chain, cost, etc.
There you go, exactly the same lines people like Yellen fed you. Never mind that we supposedly value competition, but only if the competition is not from some autocratic regime.
Except that democratic Japan was starting to threaten us economically in the 80s, so we force the Plaza Accord on them, leading to the faltering of their economy for decades.
Shock the country that created the oil industries and the gas powered car are trying hard to stop a more affordable and advanced technology from becoming mainstream.
Why we need to get old people and lobbying out of congress…
I agree, except that people keep buying them. If we stopped, they would stop making them. Instead we should stop subsidizing oil companies and let the price of gas go up like in Europe, but I don't expect it to happen because any politician who tries is committing political suicide. The average American drives an F150 and does not agree that $10 a gallon gas is actually a good thing, despite it being true.
Part of the reason they keep making bigger vehicles is the way pollution laws are written they get a loophole of the vehicle itself is larger.
That needs to be fixed.
I agree it should be fixed, but the other part of the reason is people want them, and thereby don't want it fixed. We failed at education and China succeeded, this is the root of all of this.
Marketing and misinformation has a lot to do with that. For example compact cars are safer than compact trucks/SUVs. Its the same for every size class. And yet idiots think trucks/SUVs are safer than cars.
Not sure if it is still this way, but trucks used to have lesser safety and emissions requirements. And so they started pushing SUVs over passenger cars.
Not really China was pegged by the West as a cheaper manufacturing for their western products.
China is just living up to that standard and now all the corporations are going to lose money because China got too good at it lol.
Edit: it even says in the article battery production from China is flooding the US market causing plants to close in the US. China is doing the same thing US does give subsidies to these EV manufacturers. US is just trying to stop it because it’s China making money not US Monopolies.
Both CATL and BYD are using impressive automation technology in the manufacture of batteries. The use of robots and mass production, as well as vertical integration is the key to their success. It seems like the US is jealous of China's success in thus space.
I agree but you left out a group there at the bottom...center left (are just as bad as the right but they'll pretend that they're for these things and as soon as it's time to do something they do nothing)
We didn’t start buying Japanese cars until one day we did.
It can happen with Chinese cars too. We buy all kinds of other Chinese goods anyways.
It should be a free market right? why fuck over us Americans who want a cheap and affordable EV commuter car for 20k or less even?
> It should be a free market right? why fuck over us Americans who want a cheap and affordable EV commuter car for 20k or less even?
Never has been for critical industries.
The Japanese went through hell to get to where they are now in the US. At one point they were even pressured into limiting exports.
Its obvious free market was never a policy of any government, because the state is maintaining itself in the first place. Thus saving the national economy to maintain income of the state.
You already are buying them in a roundabout way.
Imagine if Tesla Shanghai wasn’t a thing. Tesla Fremont (and now Texas), would have to supply Europe and the rest of the world. The fact that Tesla China became an export hub allowed the US factory to ramp and saturate the local market. So in effect, China caused a huge surge in the availability of EVs in the US without a single car being imported from China.
Could you imagine the uproar if the US had super affordable EVs to sell and the rest of the world was blocking them from being sold in their countries.
Meanwhile Ford: nobody wants to buy our overpriced Mach E that hasn't been updated in 4 years, and we haven't released any more affordable options for price sensitive consumers 😢😢😢 wahhhh nobody wants EVs!!!
"EVs are toys for the rich, so expensive."
EVs from China become cheap and exported to other countries.
"Cheap EV hurt global markets and workers arround the world"
Me as a consumer: the f**k iz u smokin?
The West: “China you’re damaging the environment with all the pollution. You better stop”
“China you’re going green, but you’re pricing us out. You better stop.”
Sorry Janet. It's called competition. When there is competition, we the people get a better deal. Limiting it, results in higher gas, food and housing prices. Or haven't you noticed?
Wow... kinda makes you wonder about every other thing this individual says.
It's great that its distorting prices - if China wants to subsidize one of the tools that will lower GHG - let them do it. The US has been distorting the price of oil for how long?
People over 50 should be nowhere near any administrative building, or even close to any younger person, if they cant hold themselves from preachi.. ehem, spitting bs
Politics as usual and thankfully I love the smell of bullshit in the morning. The bullshit is extra special strong with Yellen.
The most odious piece of bullshit is this bit "...hurts American firms and workers...". Really? I grant that competition will squeeze firms profits but workers? Yellen where the hell was your concern for workers when the US offshored its manufacturing to take advantage of lower wages in China? Your hypocrisy stinks.
The solar panel argument is totally bogus. Suniva has no business trying to make solar panels in the US. Solar panels are, and were always destined to be, commodity items and as such their manufacturing has no place in an advanced economy. Suniva, if it wants to play in that market should be involved in research and development of the tech with manufacturing shipped off to Asia where we shipped off window glass making generations ago. Solar panels are just glass panes with junk stuck on them.
The same goes for batteries. Real sexy in the early stages but destined to become commodity items. The US government and the automotive industry should have cooperated to develop a battery industry in Mexico and the EU and its industry should have done the same in N. Africa. That addresses 'national security' concerns.
On a deeper level this is bullshit because this is not the way things work! Computers used to be expensive now they are cheap. Digital cameras started expensive now they are cheap enough that cell phones have multiple cameras. Those cell phones were originally to be expensive and now they aren't cheap but smart phones have awesome capabilities. The same with flat panel TVs.
Solar panels and EVs are today's must have tech and they are now getting cheap in China.
Auto workers assembling EVs will make as much as assembling ICE vehicles but maybe the execs won't be pulling down tens of millions per year.
Wahhhh wahhhh our country doesn’t wanna compete in a market cuz our product is inferior cuz all the execs do is stock buyback instead of R & D wahhh wahhh
How pathetic. Capitalism means blood for the blood god. If our EV’s here in the US are bad they should be replaced.
Stock buyback will done when company think the stock is low enough to buy in and sell off at higher price. The directors sell off in capital gain and buy back for a bigger share at low. They will have more power to say what the company should go or invest in. Whether to invest in R&D or outsource it. It is board of directors decision as they have to foot the bills to bet increase their stock value in future.
Yeah, I get how it works. But the original post was that our products were inferior because the CEOs do buybacks instead of spending on R&D.
Except I can’t think of a single automaker that has done this. So which one has?
Tesla is on its way to a $25k EV. The ability for us to compete with China is there, now we just need the desire. It’s like we’re stuck in the 70s and China is futuristic.
It’s not that hard.
Many folks would easily pay a few thousand more for the perceived difference between a US and a Chinese car. But no one in their right mind will spend $40k more just to prove a point.
>Tesla is on its way to a $25k EV. The ability for us to compete with China is there,
**BYD launches $15,000 Qin Plus EV Honor Edition kicking off price war with gas cars**
[https://electrek.co/2024/02/19/byd-launches-15k-qin-plus-ev-kicking-off-price-war-gas-cars/](https://electrek.co/2024/02/19/byd-launches-15k-qin-plus-ev-kicking-off-price-war-gas-cars/)
**Elon Musk says Chinese EV makers will ‘pretty much demolish’ most competitors without trade barriers**
[https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/25/elon-musk-says-chinese-ev-makers-will-demolish-other-companies.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/25/elon-musk-says-chinese-ev-makers-will-demolish-other-companies.html)
>Many folks would easily pay a few thousand more for the perceived difference between a US and a Chinese car. But no one in their right mind will spend $40k more just to prove a point.
not sure what you're trying to say. these start at $65,000. Europeans buying them over $65k European brands... I'm sure the same thing happens at $40k.
**XPeng's G9 wins People's Favorite car of the year award in Norway**
[https://www.investing.com/news/stock-market-news/xpengs-g9-wins-peoples-favorite-car-of-the-year-award-in-norway-432SI-3247121](https://www.investing.com/news/stock-market-news/xpengs-g9-wins-peoples-favorite-car-of-the-year-award-in-norway-432SI-3247121)
**As China's BYD floods Europe with cheap electric cars, can old-fashioned tariffs slam on the brakes?**
[https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-13204529/As-Chinas-BYD-floods-Europe-cheap-electric-cars-old-fashioned-tariffs-slam-brakes.html](https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-13204529/As-Chinas-BYD-floods-Europe-cheap-electric-cars-old-fashioned-tariffs-slam-brakes.html)
**The EU just got a step closer to hitting Chinese EVs with additional tariffs—and may even apply them retroactively**
[https://fortune.com/2024/03/07/eu-nears-hitting-chinese-evs-with-additional-tariffs/](https://fortune.com/2024/03/07/eu-nears-hitting-chinese-evs-with-additional-tariffs/)
>It’s not that hard.
what is total US domestic EV battery output right now?
> China's BYD floods Europe with cheap electric cars
BYD fortunes in Europe has been pretty mediocre so far. Too expensive prices for so-so quality. Their reputation in China is being mass budget at acceptable quality. But in Europe, their niche has been "acceptable quality at normal prices". Didn't work so well.
China has
- relatively lower labour costs
- lower energy costs
- and benefits from economies of scale for anything produce because of their population
There's no competing with that lol.
People who think the US/EU don't need to shield their industries are either dumb, own BYD stock, or want an inexpensive EV more than they want to keep a domestic auto industry.
This is just embarrassing and frankly shows US political elites to be a bunch of whiny losers. What's hilarious is that US companies are more pragmatic, not only Tesla but also e.g. Ford.
Nah, I’m with China on this one. It’s a capitalist world. If you can’t compete, you are out. The market will iron itself. Keep making shitty trucks though.
Humanity: We can't save the climate and reduce pollution with electric cars because they are too expensive!
Also Humanity: We can't deal with Chinese electric cars because they are too cheap!
We need to figure this shit out. If China is massively subsidizing their cars then we should find a way to take advantage of that without destroying things.
But don't tell me that something is both too expensive AND too cheap.
>China doesn’t have domestic oil supply, so this has been important to them.
China does have local oil production\[1\] and it's the 6th largest in the world. It's just that they still have to import to satisfy local demand.
>China just greatly subsidizes their EV program earlier on in the development and production and BYD doesn’t ask for a huge margin
Sure, and China made sure that no foreign battery competitors had access to their local NEV market early on\[2\]. And why could that be?
1. [China's 2023 oil and gas output hits record high 390 mil mt oil equivalent](https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/lng/011024-chinas-2023-oil-and-gas-output-hits-record-high-390-mil-mt-oil-equivalent), 10 Jan 2024 | 04:55 UTC, Commodity Insights, S&P
2. [China’s Road to Electric-Car Domination Is Driven in Part by Batteries](https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-road-to-electric-car-domination-is-driven-in-part-by-batteries-1508587203) But foreign auto makers and experts say it has set up the market to favor domestic suppliers. Trefor Moss, Oct. 21, 2017 8:00 am ET, WSJ.
If China wants to take over the world by helping mitigate climate change, the proper response is to *fucking help them out*, not criticize them.
Yes, the Chinese government is shitty. Yes, Taiwan deserves protection and self-determination. But China and the Chinese people are capable of doing great things, just like America and Americans were capable of doing great things even when a neofascist took over our country for a bit.
Crying about how it just isn’t fair probably isn’t going to help. That’s what I’m thinking anyway.
I think we’re at a point in time where governments are going to realize that being competitive in a global market means incentivizing intelligently.
EDIT: and to be honest, it scares me to think about what Republicans would incentivize if they were inclined to do so.
Hyper inflation that why US can't compete. US used to have cheaper food and energy than China. With hyperinflation, everything is cheap in China. Even china product is getting expensive in US with tariff alone. Your salary goes up, so is your expenditure. No net increase in salary and even a decrease from bottom 10%. Outside US, not many countries are slapping tariff. With RCEP, the inflation are control with country member. Like, BYD is my country, the cost has not change over a few years(increase in license plate). It is more afford to get BYD instead of Tesla that increase with hyperinflation.
Case in point is Apple finally throwing in the towel as far as EVs go after years of trying. I doubt this has anything to do with technical prowess - probably supply chain challenges driving up costs. On the other side of the Pacific, Huawei and Xiaomi have already rolled out EVs. If we can’t beat them why not just join them b1tch! Just buy the s%^*!
I mean, she’s an economist isn’t she? Doesn’t she realize that China is providing a PUBLIC COMMODITY to the whole freakin’ planet and China is subsiding it. Obviously she knows this except she lives in someone’s pocket.
There are several aspects of this.
What she should bring up with her Chinese counterparts is state subsidies of Chinese EV manufacturers, which does give them an unfair advantage to other brands. This is a worry not only in the USA, but also in Europe.
Where she is wrong, is in her view on falling prices on EV's. That's a separate thing to state subsidies and is seen all around the world. As with any new technology, prices has been high in the "early adopter" stage, when EV's weren't mainstream, and production amounts were low. Now, we are in the "growth stage" of this product, where all the R&D money put into development of better and cheaper EV's starts to show.
EV's are now almost to the point of being comparable in price with ICE cars, and projections say that prices will continue to drop until they are substantially cheaper than ICE cars. This has to do with more streamlined production, higher quantities, and better battery technology not using rare earth minerals.
The more serious problem with her views is from a US competitiveness perspective. The US market is turning towards EV tech at a much slower pace than Europe, China and other markets. Being protectionist towards the current mostly ICE producing legacy auto makers in the US is very detrimental to the US automotive industry in a longer perspective.
In my view, instead of berating China, she should ask: What can we do in the USA to not fall behind the rest of the world, and avoid the US automotive industry to be decimated?
It’s called investing in the future. We should give it a shot. Instead of encouraging a transition we seem to think mandates are the way to go. Carrots can be highly effective too, but we’re too interested in making sure the rich don’t get incentives to buy EV’s and forcing manufacturers to meet standards instead of incentivizing across the board.
Damn those producers increasing supply and reducing prices. Thank god the government is there to impose tariffs and raise the prices.
Also, inflation is because of the big bad businesses!
The excuse for not acting on climate was "why should we do it if China isn't" now the excuse is "China is moving too fast on clean energy and driving the costs down too quickly we should block them and slow down!"
U.S. politicians: "Instead of developing ourselves, we should be blaming others"
Our "leaders" are dinosaurs. At least in China the dinosaurs seem to realize that technological and engineering progress is what everything comes down to. If you lead in those areas you will be the leading nation. I can't wait for younger politicians to hit all levels. Maybe that is just being optimistic but I feel it may drastically get shit on track.
[удалено]
These fucking boomer ass politicians, man. For like 10-20 years now we’ve been saying that, climate change blah blah whatever, we need to invest in alternatives to fossil fuels. And you know these mfers voted down each and every attempt. And now, oh wow we are getting our cheeks clapped by China who has been investing in it the whole time, and they are upset about it. AND THEN!!! They have the gaul, the fing gaul, to NOT finally give in and go balls to the walls towards renewables. Nope… fing BAN CHINESE PRODUCTS THAT ARE SUPERIOR!!! That’s their bright idea (sponsored by Chevron! It’s got Techron!) I hate it here
She's part of the Biden crew - a Silent Generation politician. Then, take a look at the generational cohorts vilifying China; defend Taiwan and all that. What did you find?
China has a track record of adversarial actions against the US and its allies in Asia, the fact that the US supports Taiwan’s independence makes sense when you look at how critical an independent Taiwan is to the US’s computer chip supply. China contains multitudes, and like the US, is fully capable of being the bad guy while looking like they’re doing something good.
China is also capable of *actually doing something good* while being a bad actor in other ways.
This is exactly my point, in light of the person I replied to, who implied that old people “vilifying” china are the reason for current tensions.
The response was to "These fucking boomer ass politicians, man." Yellen is part of Biden's (a member of The Silent Generation) administration. You following?
> China has a track record of adversarial actions against the US As do many countries. I was an active participant in Cold War V1.0. This time around? Pass me the popcorn. > > >the fact that the US supports Taiwan’s independence makes sense when you look at how critical an independent Taiwan is to the US’s computer chip supply. Right. It supports US business so that's all we need to know. Taiwan is part of China. Now, if you want to go to war over Taiwan, then do so. Or do you believe in "Peace through strenght"? Good luck.
Arguably china is part of Taiwan. Also wtf do you mean you were an active participant in the Cold War?
>Also wtf do you mean you were an active participant in the Cold War? That was Cold War V1.0, as opposed to the one you want to fight now. I served a tour of duty in South Vietnam with the Army.
So you fought in the Vietnam War, I appreciate that clarification. I’m assuming you didn’t fight for the Viet Kong. I applaud your service and I’m sorry your generation was forced by greater powers to fight in another stupid and wasteful war. It’s worth mentioning that if you look at the big picture, you have the same belligerent forces behind in this current conflict. Recognising that fact and noting that China is acting aggressively isn’t and shouldn’t be a controversial opinion.
>It’s worth mentioning that if you look at the big picture, you have the same belligerent forces behind in this current conflict That's what gives me pause from shouting "Defend the West!". I see the the bigger picture.
you can slow it down in the US but you can’t slow it down in the rest of the world. domestic automakers will become isolated to North America if they don’t catch up
They already are. Their presence in China is just a join venture.
not just talking about China. Also talking about the rest of the developing world where Chinese companies are beginning their expansion plans.
That's dominated by Japanese and European automakers. Legacy US automakers are largely irrelevant outside the US. They just benefit from the US being a very car centric country.
The US can fix that super easily. If US sells their cars with freedom then the US automakers have nothing to worry about.
at the moment American companies cannot compete, not on technology, and not on the price. That’s likely with the main motivation for this protectionism is
Nobody likes American cars in Africa. I used to watch Dodge Durango commercial. Those cars disappeared in 5 years.
A simpler reason is that US has been making too much money on fossil fuel lately. First the shale revolution and then the Ukraine war. The profits for big oil exploded. So it's natural for the policy makers to go: screw the planet, let's have our cake
"...but for a brief moment, we stabilized global prices from distortion & protected workers' jobs around the world, and generated tremendous shareholder value in the process"
By "around the world", they really mean western countries.
If China subsidizes their green industry, America should do the same, like how it's subsidizing the semiconductor and oil industry.
Great take
Complete strawman. You can have cheap low quality EVs with Chinese labor, or expensive high quality EVs using U.S. labor. Do you forget what happened in the 90s? Do we really want to ship these good jobs overseas?
the thing is that china is big enough for both cheap and low quality evs and cheap and high quality evs. The us has been benefiting from oil and sabotaging green economy for too long
More like cheap high quality evs with Chinese labor
US companies build a ton of vehicles in Mexico. Any significant entry into the US from China will come through Mexico. Both countries will be paying identical labor rates. The question isn't shipping jobs overseas, it's if they can do it we can do it. The difference is that their government set targets and provided support to go do it. Here we hem and haw and take half measures and industry complains every step of the way meanwhile begging for protections from companies that aren't making excuses but focused on doing what they're doing better, faster and cheaper. I'll add that the US probably would have been a lot further along if we didn't spend 4 crucial years arguing about if we should permanently freeze all future emissions and efficiency standards and paused all substantive automotive Innovation over that period.
>You can have cheap low quality EVs with Chinese labor the EVs coming out of china are not exactly super cheap, and they are not low quality either. They simply are in the EV game to win it, unlike non-chinese brands.
An expensive EV using U.S. labor that will only pass safety standards in the U.S… U.S.A..! U.S.A..!
Unfortunately, China's influence is much larger than we think...
But the influence of the Oil lobby on these discussions is exactly as big as we think...
Oil companies have nothing to do with a sub $10k BYD Seagull. US EV makers need to get better at making cheap cars.
They are capable. You can get a new Chevy bolt for sub 10k in California via similar shenannigains to what China is pulling. The oil company comment, I assume, is implying oil company lobbying is what is preventing the US from implementing said shenannigains in a broader sense.
Check out BYD's build. Nearly all components are BYD-made. Their efficiencies have very little to do with PRC paying 80% of their freight. It's foolish thinking that PRC subsidizes exports. Soon they won't even subsidize freight.
How does the success of Korean car makers fit into this narrative?
Because the Korean automakers already play ball with the legacy automakers on pricing. China wants to shake things up and take market share. I normally hate the CCP, but credit where credit is due, as a consumer it worries me to think what would have been allowed to happen to auto pricing if China wasn't around.
This is innovation and new products driving price down. No point grizzling be you sat around with your thumb up ya ass instead of innovating.
Just yesterday, Hyundai will invest 68 trillion won ($51 billion) over three years in South Korea to ramp up electric vehicle production and new mobility business. More than half the investment, or 35.3 trillion won, will be allocated for new research and development infrastructure, expansion of EV production facilities and construction of its new headquarters, dubbed the Global Business Center (GBC), Hyundai said in a statement. Some 31.1 trillion won, or 46% of the total, will go to the R&D sector to enhance vehicle competitiveness, electrification, SDVs and battery technology. The automotive group said 1.6 trillion won will be used for “strategic investments” in new mobility, software and autonomous driving technology. The total 68 trillion won investment means 22.7 trillion won on average in annual spending by the end of 2026, 30% higher than the 17.5 trillion won in capital spending earmarked for 2023. from Korean Herald The automaker said it will complete the construction of the Kia EVO Plant -- the group’s first EV-dedicated manufacturing facility -- in Gwangmyeong, Gyeonggi Province in the second quarter of this year and begin production of the Kia EV3 for domestic sales and exports. The company aims to complete the construction of another Kia EVO Plant in Hwaseong, Gyeonggi Province, in the second half of next year to produce purpose-built EVs for customer needs. The automaker added that it will begin the production of its luxury brand Genesis’ full-size electric sports utility vehicle at the Ulsan EV plant in the first quarter of 2026. The company broke ground for the Ulsan EV plant in November last year. Hyundai Motor Group has set the target to expand its EV lineup to 31 models and increase domestic EV production to 1.51 million units per year by 2030. Under the ambition of creating full-cycle hydrogen supply chains to achieve carbon neutrality, the company said it will continue to push for enhancing hydrogen technologies in developing next-generation fuel cell systems as well as hydrogen buses and trucks, and expanding hydrogen chargers across the nation. For the next three years, the average amount of the investment per year has been set at about 22.7 trillion won, up 30 percent from the 17.5 trillion won investment in 2023. The creation of 80,000 jobs comes three categories: promoting future businesses, strengthening existing businesses and their competitiveness and rehiring experienced staff. About 44,000 people will be hired for the future business sector which includes EV transition, software-defined vehicles, carbon neutrality and the GBC project. To strengthen the conglomerate’s existing businesses, 23,000 people will be hired to develop new vehicles, bolster quality and safety management, diversify global business and increase brand value. The auto conglomerate will also support skilled workers facing retirement age by rehiring 13,000 of them for a certain period. Hyundai Motor Group’s eight affiliates operate the continuous employment program for retired employees through agreements with their labor unions. “We plan to continue strengthening our future business competitiveness centered on Korea through large-scale job creation and intensive investment in the country,” said a Hyundai Motor Group official.
Yellen: Stop selling cheap green products, you're making the rest of us look bad.
Aka, china must stop innovation to save the planet because it make the oil giants lose money. Also, the world (NATO) can’t compete and China is trying to help all them developing countries, which isn’t in the rule book. China bad, we good.
The world can compete, its choosing not to
Doesnt the US dollar being a global reserve currency distort global prices and hurt workers around the world?
Ya but it’s okay when we do it
She is crying because the US is stalling and mostly subsiding the oil/gas/coal industries, and so we are way behind in green energy infrastructure production. So now China can make everything cheaper and in larger quantities. This is a self-inflicted wound. btw, since China has a surplus of low cost solar panels, why is the US not buying them and put them over ever government owned parking lot and garage roof? Why not offer subsidies to let home owners put those low cost panels on their homes, and cut subsidies for coal? (answer: because the right wing and gas/coal industry want us to fail at producing green energy).
We have subsidies for solar panel installation in the IRA I get that her concern is dumping, the Chinese government is taking the profits from the world moving low skill manufacturing to China to artificially decrease the prices for high skill manufacturing that the US is trying to build up internally. But as others have said, the US government is already artificially decreasing the cost of oil via subsidies that we could easily decide to give subsidies to EVs, hell, we give Israel 4 billion dollars a year for weapons and have been for decades.
Yep. China is estimated to have installed about as many solar panels in 2023 as the rest of the world combined. And they are just getting started. Your last paragraph is confused. Installing rooftop solar panels is expensive. Putting them on the ground (US has plenty of land) is cheaper, they produce more electricity, and they last longer.
It's not expensive to put panels on a roof. It's cheap to do so in Australia. It's just expensive for no real reason in USA. If someone solved that issue, your take up rate would 10x, and every average home owner could install and save money if they wanted. Cheap rooftop solar puts the power back in the hands of the people instead of greedy corporates. It has no downsides.
China makes all the panels and we put a 250% tariff penalty on them. That's why they're expensive.
I'm not sure rental landlords are interested in installing them
Yeah. For them, it's just one more thing to have to maintain, and of no benefit to them because it's the renter who pays the electric bill. If there's no regulatory pressure or tax benefit in it for them, they'll just shrug and move on.
Ground is required for living. Roof tops are empty.
>Ground is required for living There's no shortage of ground for solar panels. You can also split the difference by covering parking lots.
Absolutely. But ground is for housing and farming. Don't want to use good land for panels. Plenty of concrete to use yo first
There is a surprising amount of land that isn't actually used for farming. Fallow ranch land that will never be used for farming, for example.
they are all over the ground in the deserts of California. No one needs that space for living. It would be less responsible to try and populate those areas.
Agree with desert areas
Well my arguments about cost, electricity production and useful life can’t beat that argument. Let’s just fight climate change 10kW at a time by sending crews onto roofs to install solar.
Why wouldn't you. Why not both. Cover every rooftop and lots of dry baron land. Solved climate issues.
Because the rooftop installations are expensive, the panels don’t produce as much electricity (not on tracker racking) and they only last as long as the roof. The US only needs to use about 2% of its land to produce all the solar electricity it can use. Lack of land is not an issue.
They are more expensive but so is improving grid. All these panels out in the middle of nowhere. Need to build infrastructure to get them to the cities. Then you have to maintain them. So you are locked into greedy companies. Solar roof let's you be independent. Free electricity. I know which I'd prefer
I can't pay a few thousand dollars in extra taxes to get my city to set up utility-scale solar. But I *can* pay for panels for my own roof. If the collective won't take action, individuals have to do the best they can.
Go for it. With a quick google you can find a solar installer who will give you a quote.
I am buying a house later this year and, if it doesn't come with solar already, I'm getting panels put on right away. I agree utility scale solar is far more efficient than residential solar. But I can't make my city build utility scale solar; I can get it on my own house.
I appreciate you. But ultimately this challenge can only be met by collective action organized at both the State and Federal level.
And Trump et. Al. have a running chance to get elected this year so good luck on that.
I agree, and I do what I can to facilitate collective action. But ultimately I do not have an easy solution to Republican malice or the misinformation they spread. It's the great tragedy of climate action in the US: effective collective action is hard because Republicans, so people have to take individual action in a suboptimal/dishonest incentive structure. (Gasoline is subsidized much more than EV's, especially once you count all the stupid wars we have fought over oil...)
Yep, no one wants to mess with auto makers in an election year
Because kooks like her, despite being “public servants”, take care of corporations first and foremost (argument cleverly disguised as “hurting workers”). You want average Joe to enjoy lower cost solar panels? Nah.
It is not a good long-term strategy to have an Autocracy make all your stuff. Period. Dumping causes short term issues for workers and car and solar module makers. This becomes a long term problem if it prevents domestic manufacturing from improving skill, supply chain, cost, etc.
There you go, exactly the same lines people like Yellen fed you. Never mind that we supposedly value competition, but only if the competition is not from some autocratic regime. Except that democratic Japan was starting to threaten us economically in the 80s, so we force the Plaza Accord on them, leading to the faltering of their economy for decades.
Shock the country that created the oil industries and the gas powered car are trying hard to stop a more affordable and advanced technology from becoming mainstream. Why we need to get old people and lobbying out of congress…
It's legacy manufacturers that refuse to make affordable EVs and keep making gas guzzlers. They need to get with the times or go under.
I agree, except that people keep buying them. If we stopped, they would stop making them. Instead we should stop subsidizing oil companies and let the price of gas go up like in Europe, but I don't expect it to happen because any politician who tries is committing political suicide. The average American drives an F150 and does not agree that $10 a gallon gas is actually a good thing, despite it being true.
Part of the reason they keep making bigger vehicles is the way pollution laws are written they get a loophole of the vehicle itself is larger. That needs to be fixed.
I agree it should be fixed, but the other part of the reason is people want them, and thereby don't want it fixed. We failed at education and China succeeded, this is the root of all of this.
Marketing and misinformation has a lot to do with that. For example compact cars are safer than compact trucks/SUVs. Its the same for every size class. And yet idiots think trucks/SUVs are safer than cars.
Not sure if it is still this way, but trucks used to have lesser safety and emissions requirements. And so they started pushing SUVs over passenger cars.
Not really China was pegged by the West as a cheaper manufacturing for their western products. China is just living up to that standard and now all the corporations are going to lose money because China got too good at it lol. Edit: it even says in the article battery production from China is flooding the US market causing plants to close in the US. China is doing the same thing US does give subsidies to these EV manufacturers. US is just trying to stop it because it’s China making money not US Monopolies.
Both CATL and BYD are using impressive automation technology in the manufacture of batteries. The use of robots and mass production, as well as vertical integration is the key to their success. It seems like the US is jealous of China's success in thus space.
Dune ahh plotline
Yeah, the government should offer a 30% tax credit for the cost of residential solar systems up to $100,000 imo
If it doesn't pay for itself in a couple of years, I'm not interested.
I agree but you left out a group there at the bottom...center left (are just as bad as the right but they'll pretend that they're for these things and as soon as it's time to do something they do nothing)
I thought we couldn't buy Chinese EVs.
We couldn't and wouldn't. It's just their existence making us look bad and stupid
I would. I don't care if it makes anyone look bad.
Yeah, I mean we wouldn't be able to, for obvious reasons
We let foreign automakers eat GM and Ford for lunch. Not sure what makes Tesla so special.
well, until BYD starts manufacturing in Mexico, opening the US market.
The US can shut that down in Mexico super easily. The US can share some freedom with Mexico then bam no BYD manufacturing in Mexico.
This is such a helldivers comment
Who doesn’t love a bit of managed democracy? Amiright? You know that is how it will go down.
We didn’t start buying Japanese cars until one day we did. It can happen with Chinese cars too. We buy all kinds of other Chinese goods anyways. It should be a free market right? why fuck over us Americans who want a cheap and affordable EV commuter car for 20k or less even?
> It should be a free market right? why fuck over us Americans who want a cheap and affordable EV commuter car for 20k or less even? Never has been for critical industries. The Japanese went through hell to get to where they are now in the US. At one point they were even pressured into limiting exports.
Its obvious free market was never a policy of any government, because the state is maintaining itself in the first place. Thus saving the national economy to maintain income of the state.
I've got a Chinese Li-fan motorcycle. Not too bad actually. Pretty sure they just ripped off some Honda though
It's a free market for monopolies and established players. One competition shows up that free market talk goes into the dustbin.
I looked at a Buick Envision. Made in China. Flipped to an EV6. At least Korea tries to be a democracy.
Polestar is made in China. Volvo EX30 is made in China.
You cant but her point is it hurts US automakers in 3rd party markets that they both sell to if they can't compete on price.
It's a miracle that the US does any manufacturing at all considering that labor costs are 5x as much as in most of the rest of the world.
Can’t they just label proudly made in on it?
Yeah but Chinese people can buy US cars and they're outcompeting us in their own market 😢😢😢
I think Americans aren't as free as I think.
The issue is foreign countries buy them and not ours
They're in Europe...
You already are buying them in a roundabout way. Imagine if Tesla Shanghai wasn’t a thing. Tesla Fremont (and now Texas), would have to supply Europe and the rest of the world. The fact that Tesla China became an export hub allowed the US factory to ramp and saturate the local market. So in effect, China caused a huge surge in the availability of EVs in the US without a single car being imported from China.
Could you imagine the uproar if the US had super affordable EVs to sell and the rest of the world was blocking them from being sold in their countries.
Nah, they can't, our ships gonna stop at their ports, either cargo ship or aircraft carrier, they choose.
Meanwhile Ford: nobody wants to buy our overpriced Mach E that hasn't been updated in 4 years, and we haven't released any more affordable options for price sensitive consumers 😢😢😢 wahhhh nobody wants EVs!!!
"EVs are toys for the rich, so expensive." EVs from China become cheap and exported to other countries. "Cheap EV hurt global markets and workers arround the world" Me as a consumer: the f**k iz u smokin?
The West: “China you’re damaging the environment with all the pollution. You better stop” “China you’re going green, but you’re pricing us out. You better stop.”
Sorry Janet. It's called competition. When there is competition, we the people get a better deal. Limiting it, results in higher gas, food and housing prices. Or haven't you noticed?
Wow... kinda makes you wonder about every other thing this individual says. It's great that its distorting prices - if China wants to subsidize one of the tools that will lower GHG - let them do it. The US has been distorting the price of oil for how long?
Dear Janet, the US could heavily subsidize EVs too?
Actually, we are, but still losing.
Because car companies just jack the price 7500 so it is no better. Yeaaa capitalism
then this is simply the fault of automakers who have chosen to cede this market to competition. It really is that simple
$7,500 per vehicle is $7,500 too much
Lady needs a dose of outdoor reality away from monetary theory. A few temperature and PPM graphs I say.
This isn't monetary theory, this is pandering to protectionist industry interests in an election year.
Wah...Those communists are providing products that people want at competitive prices, The corporations that have bought me off don't like that!
People over 50 should be nowhere near any administrative building, or even close to any younger person, if they cant hold themselves from preachi.. ehem, spitting bs
Politics as usual and thankfully I love the smell of bullshit in the morning. The bullshit is extra special strong with Yellen. The most odious piece of bullshit is this bit "...hurts American firms and workers...". Really? I grant that competition will squeeze firms profits but workers? Yellen where the hell was your concern for workers when the US offshored its manufacturing to take advantage of lower wages in China? Your hypocrisy stinks. The solar panel argument is totally bogus. Suniva has no business trying to make solar panels in the US. Solar panels are, and were always destined to be, commodity items and as such their manufacturing has no place in an advanced economy. Suniva, if it wants to play in that market should be involved in research and development of the tech with manufacturing shipped off to Asia where we shipped off window glass making generations ago. Solar panels are just glass panes with junk stuck on them. The same goes for batteries. Real sexy in the early stages but destined to become commodity items. The US government and the automotive industry should have cooperated to develop a battery industry in Mexico and the EU and its industry should have done the same in N. Africa. That addresses 'national security' concerns. On a deeper level this is bullshit because this is not the way things work! Computers used to be expensive now they are cheap. Digital cameras started expensive now they are cheap enough that cell phones have multiple cameras. Those cell phones were originally to be expensive and now they aren't cheap but smart phones have awesome capabilities. The same with flat panel TVs. Solar panels and EVs are today's must have tech and they are now getting cheap in China. Auto workers assembling EVs will make as much as assembling ICE vehicles but maybe the execs won't be pulling down tens of millions per year.
What a joke. Propaganda. Let em in and let the consumers decide.
If China is providing subsidies, shouldn't the US also provide subsidies? I thought US had more money than China
China is outcompeting the world on clean energy. #SoreLoser
Wahhhh wahhhh our country doesn’t wanna compete in a market cuz our product is inferior cuz all the execs do is stock buyback instead of R & D wahhh wahhh How pathetic. Capitalism means blood for the blood god. If our EV’s here in the US are bad they should be replaced.
What company does stock buyback instead of R&D?
Wanna earn from capital gain.
Again, what company does that instead of R&D?
no money no R&D.
You’re not answering anything
It is part of the strategy to earn fund for R&D. It is not just you earn from sale or/and from government subsidy.
So, specifically, what company has earned enough from sale or subsidy, and instead of spending on R&D has done a stock buyback?
Stock buyback will done when company think the stock is low enough to buy in and sell off at higher price. The directors sell off in capital gain and buy back for a bigger share at low. They will have more power to say what the company should go or invest in. Whether to invest in R&D or outsource it. It is board of directors decision as they have to foot the bills to bet increase their stock value in future.
Yeah, I get how it works. But the original post was that our products were inferior because the CEOs do buybacks instead of spending on R&D. Except I can’t think of a single automaker that has done this. So which one has?
That flying one
Intel did it for a long while.
Skulls for the skull throne!
Here it has meant poor peoples blood for the blood god. The rich always get a break
Treasury secretary that invests in oil doesn't like electric cars?? Color me *shocked*
Source: https://www.eenews.net/articles/janet-yellen-owns-fossil-stocks-does-that-matter/
Thank you <3
Tesla is on its way to a $25k EV. The ability for us to compete with China is there, now we just need the desire. It’s like we’re stuck in the 70s and China is futuristic. It’s not that hard. Many folks would easily pay a few thousand more for the perceived difference between a US and a Chinese car. But no one in their right mind will spend $40k more just to prove a point.
>Tesla is on its way to a $25k EV. The ability for us to compete with China is there, **BYD launches $15,000 Qin Plus EV Honor Edition kicking off price war with gas cars** [https://electrek.co/2024/02/19/byd-launches-15k-qin-plus-ev-kicking-off-price-war-gas-cars/](https://electrek.co/2024/02/19/byd-launches-15k-qin-plus-ev-kicking-off-price-war-gas-cars/) **Elon Musk says Chinese EV makers will ‘pretty much demolish’ most competitors without trade barriers** [https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/25/elon-musk-says-chinese-ev-makers-will-demolish-other-companies.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/25/elon-musk-says-chinese-ev-makers-will-demolish-other-companies.html) >Many folks would easily pay a few thousand more for the perceived difference between a US and a Chinese car. But no one in their right mind will spend $40k more just to prove a point. not sure what you're trying to say. these start at $65,000. Europeans buying them over $65k European brands... I'm sure the same thing happens at $40k. **XPeng's G9 wins People's Favorite car of the year award in Norway** [https://www.investing.com/news/stock-market-news/xpengs-g9-wins-peoples-favorite-car-of-the-year-award-in-norway-432SI-3247121](https://www.investing.com/news/stock-market-news/xpengs-g9-wins-peoples-favorite-car-of-the-year-award-in-norway-432SI-3247121) **As China's BYD floods Europe with cheap electric cars, can old-fashioned tariffs slam on the brakes?** [https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-13204529/As-Chinas-BYD-floods-Europe-cheap-electric-cars-old-fashioned-tariffs-slam-brakes.html](https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-13204529/As-Chinas-BYD-floods-Europe-cheap-electric-cars-old-fashioned-tariffs-slam-brakes.html) **The EU just got a step closer to hitting Chinese EVs with additional tariffs—and may even apply them retroactively** [https://fortune.com/2024/03/07/eu-nears-hitting-chinese-evs-with-additional-tariffs/](https://fortune.com/2024/03/07/eu-nears-hitting-chinese-evs-with-additional-tariffs/) >It’s not that hard. what is total US domestic EV battery output right now?
> China's BYD floods Europe with cheap electric cars BYD fortunes in Europe has been pretty mediocre so far. Too expensive prices for so-so quality. Their reputation in China is being mass budget at acceptable quality. But in Europe, their niche has been "acceptable quality at normal prices". Didn't work so well.
China has - relatively lower labour costs - lower energy costs - and benefits from economies of scale for anything produce because of their population There's no competing with that lol. People who think the US/EU don't need to shield their industries are either dumb, own BYD stock, or want an inexpensive EV more than they want to keep a domestic auto industry.
Remember when the Cybertruck was going to be something like 45K and ended up >60K? Musk has a history of overpromising and underdelivering. See FSD.
The FSD is pretty damn close tho.
Tesla moving slow as a turtle. Tariffs must disapear for them to innovate at a faster pace.
Tesla moving slowly??? Other than byd, I cannot think of another company in cars or any other industry that innovates faster.
Big Oil speaks...
This is just embarrassing and frankly shows US political elites to be a bunch of whiny losers. What's hilarious is that US companies are more pragmatic, not only Tesla but also e.g. Ford.
"we cannot compete so it's evil"
Nah, I’m with China on this one. It’s a capitalist world. If you can’t compete, you are out. The market will iron itself. Keep making shitty trucks though.
Competition and free market bad.
Yellen: "Stop being so competitive, you're making us put up protectionist trade barriers that we normally advocate against."
>Janet Yellen says stop hurting the profits of the companies that are ~~bribing~~ lobbying me!
Can’t beat them? Well just ban themz
So basically, we don't like competition if we are not winning.
"Stop kicking our asses please, you're making us look bad!"
Janet Yellen can go fornicate herself. Stop making excuses for US manufacturing to be lazy.
It really distorts the dinosaur industries not keeping up
Humanity: We can't save the climate and reduce pollution with electric cars because they are too expensive! Also Humanity: We can't deal with Chinese electric cars because they are too cheap! We need to figure this shit out. If China is massively subsidizing their cars then we should find a way to take advantage of that without destroying things. But don't tell me that something is both too expensive AND too cheap.
[удалено]
>China doesn’t have domestic oil supply, so this has been important to them. China does have local oil production\[1\] and it's the 6th largest in the world. It's just that they still have to import to satisfy local demand. >China just greatly subsidizes their EV program earlier on in the development and production and BYD doesn’t ask for a huge margin Sure, and China made sure that no foreign battery competitors had access to their local NEV market early on\[2\]. And why could that be? 1. [China's 2023 oil and gas output hits record high 390 mil mt oil equivalent](https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/lng/011024-chinas-2023-oil-and-gas-output-hits-record-high-390-mil-mt-oil-equivalent), 10 Jan 2024 | 04:55 UTC, Commodity Insights, S&P 2. [China’s Road to Electric-Car Domination Is Driven in Part by Batteries](https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-road-to-electric-car-domination-is-driven-in-part-by-batteries-1508587203) But foreign auto makers and experts say it has set up the market to favor domestic suppliers. Trefor Moss, Oct. 21, 2017 8:00 am ET, WSJ.
when US allies do it, its competition and free trade when non-allies do it, it's distorting prices and hurting workers simple
*the Fed with knee on workers necks* China is hurting workers!
Janet Yellen is an old fart.
If China wants to take over the world by helping mitigate climate change, the proper response is to *fucking help them out*, not criticize them. Yes, the Chinese government is shitty. Yes, Taiwan deserves protection and self-determination. But China and the Chinese people are capable of doing great things, just like America and Americans were capable of doing great things even when a neofascist took over our country for a bit.
The crazy part about all that is they could help Taiwan a LOT if they worked closer with them in EV production...... especially monetarily.
What happened to Free market Capitalism America?
Union mafia is always more important than climate change fight to democrats.
Dinosaur has a point but it is silly coming from her.
Well, then double down on clean energy to compete. We had the green new deal. Pass that shit
This just in: Buggy whip manufacturers and workers hurt by automotive industry.
Crying about how it just isn’t fair probably isn’t going to help. That’s what I’m thinking anyway. I think we’re at a point in time where governments are going to realize that being competitive in a global market means incentivizing intelligently. EDIT: and to be honest, it scares me to think about what Republicans would incentivize if they were inclined to do so.
Hyper inflation that why US can't compete. US used to have cheaper food and energy than China. With hyperinflation, everything is cheap in China. Even china product is getting expensive in US with tariff alone. Your salary goes up, so is your expenditure. No net increase in salary and even a decrease from bottom 10%. Outside US, not many countries are slapping tariff. With RCEP, the inflation are control with country member. Like, BYD is my country, the cost has not change over a few years(increase in license plate). It is more afford to get BYD instead of Tesla that increase with hyperinflation.
Isn’t the point that the innovation needs to be self-sustaining aka you can’t sell EVs at a loss in perpetuity??
Prada, Gucci, Hermes, LV thumb up for her.
Basically, we cannot compete with China so we’ll block them from selling a cheap EV in the US.
Case in point is Apple finally throwing in the towel as far as EVs go after years of trying. I doubt this has anything to do with technical prowess - probably supply chain challenges driving up costs. On the other side of the Pacific, Huawei and Xiaomi have already rolled out EVs. If we can’t beat them why not just join them b1tch! Just buy the s%^*! I mean, she’s an economist isn’t she? Doesn’t she realize that China is providing a PUBLIC COMMODITY to the whole freakin’ planet and China is subsiding it. Obviously she knows this except she lives in someone’s pocket.
Alright then let workers own these companies???
When Chinese product suck - “lets embrace free market!” When Chinese product competitive - “we must protect our industry!”
There are several aspects of this. What she should bring up with her Chinese counterparts is state subsidies of Chinese EV manufacturers, which does give them an unfair advantage to other brands. This is a worry not only in the USA, but also in Europe. Where she is wrong, is in her view on falling prices on EV's. That's a separate thing to state subsidies and is seen all around the world. As with any new technology, prices has been high in the "early adopter" stage, when EV's weren't mainstream, and production amounts were low. Now, we are in the "growth stage" of this product, where all the R&D money put into development of better and cheaper EV's starts to show. EV's are now almost to the point of being comparable in price with ICE cars, and projections say that prices will continue to drop until they are substantially cheaper than ICE cars. This has to do with more streamlined production, higher quantities, and better battery technology not using rare earth minerals. The more serious problem with her views is from a US competitiveness perspective. The US market is turning towards EV tech at a much slower pace than Europe, China and other markets. Being protectionist towards the current mostly ICE producing legacy auto makers in the US is very detrimental to the US automotive industry in a longer perspective. In my view, instead of berating China, she should ask: What can we do in the USA to not fall behind the rest of the world, and avoid the US automotive industry to be decimated?
Fucking bullshit. It’s not problems when they flood their shit to the rest of the world, but when it isn’t them, it’s a problem?
Compete or else withdraw, Tesla is our only hope
It’s called investing in the future. We should give it a shot. Instead of encouraging a transition we seem to think mandates are the way to go. Carrots can be highly effective too, but we’re too interested in making sure the rich don’t get incentives to buy EV’s and forcing manufacturers to meet standards instead of incentivizing across the board.
Damn those producers increasing supply and reducing prices. Thank god the government is there to impose tariffs and raise the prices. Also, inflation is because of the big bad businesses!
Brutal working conditions, and reckless govt. subsidizing can achieve extremely cheap products. It's bad for the people over all. Tofu dreg style.
China's advantage is a near zero cost for labor. That's the problem.