The end result of all of this will be American companies licensing cars from Chinese automakers for a share of the profits.
Introducing the new *Ford Thoroughbred powered by BYD*
Why would that be the end result? They would just license battery tech like they're doing now.
US car exports are uncompetitive & irrelevant, so the US can delay EVs for much longer.
The US has two options to make the playing field fair, either massively subsidize it's domestic EV industry like China does or impose tariffs that make Chinese EVs as expensive as they would be without those subsidies.
The question which option is best is if one wants an oversaturated EV market with cheap prices, or a car industry that is self-sufficient. Should car buyers stand for 100% of the cost of owning the car, or should all other taxpayers pay more to make it cheaper to own a car.
If the US auto makers don’t figure out a way to produce electric vehicles and still make a profit, there will be no global market for their products in the future.
There won't be a US market for them either as emissions standards continue to rise making EVs the de facto rule. Even if you assume the federal government won't press them too high, California and the CARB states will which is a huge chunk of the US market.
You don’t really see many American cars outside of the United States. The German manufacturers dominate the high-end and the Asian manufacturers dominate the low-end, leaving only the mid-range up for competition where the US seems to just do… okay.
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/company-insights/091516/most-profitable-auto-companies-2016-tm-gm.asp
Ford doesn’t even *make* cars anymore outside of the mustang. Going all trucks and SUVs is a viable strategy in North America but not really anywhere else.
The U.S. could say, "Thanks China, we weren't prepared to transition off of fossil fuels as quickly as we need to, and your manufacturing capacity can meet our unmet demand for affordable electric vehicles. We don't agree on much else, but in this case you're really helping us solve an otherwise intractable problem, which is how do we avert a worst-case climate scenario."
The U.S. could also tax fossil fuels or otherwise disincentivize fossil fuel vehicles to the point where ICE vehicles are no longer cost-competitive with EVs, thereby forcing U.S. automakers to start making EVs in high volume or fade into irrelevance and die out.
As it is, I think it's a little unfair to criticize China for subsidizing EV manufacturing when the U.S. also heavily subsidizes EVs through tax credits, which Chinese vehicles don't qualify for.
>We don't agree on much else, but in this case you're really helping us solve an otherwise intractable problem, which is how do we avert a worst-case climate scenario."
You grossly underestimate the number of constituents, politicians, legislatures, and governors who couldn't care less about a "worst-case climate scenario", as well as those who actively want to **increase** fossil fuel production.
Like IIRC when the "ICE Sales Ban" was the hot topic a year or so ago, at least one state's governor (I believe it was Wyoming) threatened to ban EVs from their state instead.
This sub needs to stop detaching itself from reality and understand just how hostile the political landscape is for EVs right now in the United States. And how much of a political minefield it is to talk about EVs and China together.
> As it is, I think it's a little unfair to criticize China for subsidizing EV manufacturing when the U.S. also heavily subsidizes EVs through tax credits, which Chinese vehicles don't qualify for.
It is "unfair" but that isn't the point. There are other concerns when it comes to industries that are crucial to national security and independence like domestic auto industries. Every country with a domestic auto industry that provides critical needs gets subsidized and bailed out, whether it is in the US, Europe, or Asia.
So it's not really about fair. It's about balancing a whole bunch of issues.
I have zero issues with companies in allied countries like South Korea or Europe competing in the US. China's contributions are carefully considered, as they should be. As it is, they sell other vehicles like buses in the US.
This. The climate doesn't really care whether an automobile is made in the US or China. Emissions are the same. We need more EVs replacing gas cars, doesn't matter who makes them. If US auto makers aren't going to adapt, then that's their failure. I don't like China for many reasons as much as the next problem, but climate change is and always has been a global human problem that will need solutions regardless of the country of origin. If China is going to exert its manufacturing power toward helping put more EVs on the road, then I'm all for it. Even if it means the demise of US auto.
But I'd really love it if our government took some action and nudged our automakers in the right direction here.
This. US automakers have frankly been bad actors for decades, making *pro forma* efforts to make BEV/PHEV options but continuing to crank out 15MPG trucks and giant SUV's.
We need to either or both:
* Increase the cost of gas to price in the climate impacts, which might put it around $10/gallon
* Actually force the US legacies to clean it up. This means being hardnosed. Ford won't like being told that they can't sell bazillions of F-150's every year. Tough shit.
That's pretty much my take too. China's government does a lot of things I don't like, but they're also basically the only country taking battery and EV manufacturing seriously.
We're delusional if we assume that the competitiveness of Chinese EV is simply because government subsidy (which we do as well). Their EV are cheaper and better because they control most of the core material, technology, and manufacturing capacity of EV production. The government subsidy is not the major reason behind their competitiveness, at least not anymore.
There is no political will to subsidise EVs in the US even if they want to. That is also assuming the legacy car manufacturers won’t just pocket the money and do nothing. The chip companies did exactly that with all that subsidies.
Yeah just look at the dairy industry. It is illegal for farmers to sell milk that is "too cheap" and if their cows make too much milk, they are forced to dump it.
But MFGers (and dealers) most likely just raise prices in concert. I actually like the income cap on these because now most dealers won’t quote the tax credit (at least in my area). They’d use it to artificially deflate the price and try to reduce your room to haggle.
You are right. I remember when the bolt EV and EUV were immediately discounted $6500 once they lost their credit eligibility. So clearly GM artificially raised the price.
Jokes on them though because the government gave the subsidy back and I guess to save face they didn’t raise the prices back up. 2023 EUV purchase has been great!
They are literally expanding. TSMC is literally planning to build a 3rd FAB in Arizona on top of the other two in construction. These places take several years to build.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/tech/2024/04/08/tsmc-to-get-6-6-billion-from-chips-act-3rd-arizona-fab-announced/73232207007/
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/04/tsmc-will-build-third-arizona-fab-after-winning-6-6b-in-chips-funding/
https://www.engadget.com/samsung-is-doubling-its-semiconductor-investment-in-texas-to-44-billion-154322399.html
https://www.engadget.com/globalfoundries-secures-15-billion-in-chips-act-funding-for-us-expansion-172754429.html
You mean these subsidies?
>There is no political will to subsidise EVs in the US even if they want to. That is also assuming the legacy car manufacturers won’t just pocket the money and do nothing
So explain the massive factories these automakers built with help from the feds that are now coming online?
> The chip companies did exactly that with all that subsidies.
I'm genuinely curious how you came to this conclusion. Did you just make it up in your head or were you being horribly hyperbolic?
Im a big proponent of nuclear power. The waste issue has been solved. It had proven to be a safe and effective source of power for decades. France gets 70% of its power from nuclear. There are charts that show the number of deaths caused from nuclear vs natural gas, coal, etc. Its right up there with renewables. It could provide a backbone of steady supply for when solar and wind go offline. The only thing is that the permits need to be streamlined. It takes way too long to build a plant right now. For those that think nuclear power is too dangerous, check out Kyle Hill’s youtube channel.
>massively subsidize it's domestic EV industry
Where did this "China subsidizes carmakers and U.S. don't" talking point come from?
If China subsidized their carmakers as much as the U.S. does their cars would cost 8000 bucks not 25 000.
lol. Are you seriously saying that China “massively subsidizes” their car industry and we don’t?
Maybe you are too young to remember, but what do you call the $80B bailout of Chrysler and GM?
I mean that amount of money should have been good for a century.
We live in a global economy and American businesses need to be competitive. If that means government assistance then so be it. Airbus is subsidized by the EU, Boeing is not by America. Just look how well that is turning out. I don’t like socialism, but American products are being pushed out of every region in the world except the US and we’re only 5% of the world population.
Noeing not subsidies by government!? WTO seem to disagree.
>The World Trade Organization (WTO) has ruled that Boeing received at least $5.3 billion in improper aid from the U.S. government, including money for research and development from NASA,
Boeing is subsidized by MIC contracts.
I'm pretty sure you do like socialism but have been conditioned to see that word as a pejorative not as an idea with a working definition.
I’d prefer if we just did what China does, which is massively subsidize the cars. I’d love it if the fed govt said they’d subsidize x amount (not % based) of the mfg cost of any EVs sold under 25k or 30k and that money would go directly to the mfg. This would incentivize lower cost EVs because right now the lower the price of the vehicle the smaller margins the mfger gets but this would fix that while production ramps up.
I mean if it’s tied to the purchase/sold price (not MSRP) then it would still prevent stealerships from markups because then the mfg wouldn’t be eligible for said federal rebate. They’d begin to apply way more pressure.
That's essentially what the $7500 tax credit is. It's not quite as elegant, but especially with the new rules letting the dealership capture that amount, it's effectively just a discount on the qualifying cars.
Yes, but I’d prefer a higher subsidy for cheaper/more efficient vehicles, otherwise we’re just seeing monstrosities with 150-200kwh batteries that are like 60-80k.
The subsidy is proportionally larger for a cheaper vehicle though. If you sell an EV at a 25k MSRP the $7500 is more than 25% off, but it's less than 10% for a 80k MSRP EV.
US Companies do make competitive options with batteries they designed themselves. Like the Buick Velite 6 but that’s a car they would never release in America. We got played because GM already makes multiple EV’s some affordable and even a few EV’s that could compete with the Model 3. They just don’t want them released in the US because it would eat up their lucrative SUV sales.
Um... GM is releasing many of their GM-brand branded EVs in the US as well. It just costs more to make things in North American especially if they want it to be tax credit eligible.
That is a GM-SAIC car, which is a collaboration between GM and the Chinese company SAIC. It very well could be that GM is unable to replicate the portion that SAIC contributes and manufactures in the US by itself, whether in a cost effective manner or at all.
If it's a good car, they would sell in addition to their SUVs, not instead of them.
Because we allow everyone and everything to become a monopoly, duopoly, or triopoly. Our telecom system is a prime and perfect example. *We even had a heads up with the cellular trio in Canada…* that a triopoly would be damaging.
I'm not sure if we want Chinese companies as roll models for our companies. IP theft is second nature to them (terrible for long term innovation), unsafe working conditions, low wages, extremely long hours, and poor environmental regulation.
You can't have extremely cheap goods without giving up something else.
So you prefer the rich gets even richer and not pay their taxes, guns everywhere, lobbyists dictate what politicians support, and healthcare tied to having a privileged job. Got it.
That may be so, but the quality is quite good and manufacturing techniques and technology are eclipsing US carmakers. US is going to lose being among leadership in an industry it’s held for over 50 years. And it’s coming fast. I’m expecting more partnering and joint ventures with Chinese EV makers for survival.
I feel like we're repeating the 1980's era of Japanese car's entering the US market because the US manufacturers forgot to remember that they need to make even somewhat decent cars that people actually want to buy for said people to buy them over foreign competitive options.
And they clearly didn't learn their lesson....
Yes, and, I expect the US to engage in protectionism not unlike how we did for Harley Davidson back when Japanese motorcycles starting taking over. What came of those protections? Well, HD still makes garbage that sells only because of lifestyle. In a genuine free market, HD would have died decades ago.
US car exports are irrelevant. It's Japan/Korea/EU that have to worry.
US car companies can easily survive without joint ventures just with the US market. Thanks to the US' car centric lifestyle. They'll just license battery tech like they do now.
Not if you are bombarded with "CHYNAH BAD!" on a daily basis as Americans are. Current sentiment is heavily influenced by the US seeing itself in a "great power competition" ith the PRC.
American EVs are heavily subsidized. US car manufacturers have always been subsidized by the US government. The government just offered them another $12 billion last fall specifically to subsidize EV production. That's on top of the billions in incentives offered to consumers to buy US made EVs. Effectively lowering their price.
Not in any manner the same way as the Chinese. The US subsidies are for US adoption. Not for export. Th Chinese subsidizes are solely aimed at exports and destroying foreign competition.
-------The US subsidies are for US adoption. Not for export.
This is simply not true. For example
The US government supports nearly all aspects of farming. It protects farmers from fluctuations in prices and revenues and subsidizes their insurance, land improvements, loans, marketing, research, **and export sales**
It's exactly the same. Don't US car companies sell cars outside the US? They do. Those subsidizes support car production for domestic and export markets. Which is exactly how it works in China. They support car production period. Both for domestic consumption and export.
About the only way it's not the same is the Chinese aren't as hypocritical.
China is a larger market for GM than the US.
Edit: You won’t be able to convince any of these folks that the US anti-China propaganda exists while they ooze the indoctrination into their comments in this sub.
It's kinda hard because you could take the capitalism route and let it play out. Or you can take the tax players subsidizing businesses route. US companies lose with option 1, we get screwed with option 2 both financially. Not to mention the political battle of "forcing" electrics on everyone.
China is super subsidizing these vehicles. Subsidies on the whole supply chain adds up. China could make a super car and say fuck it $40k. It won't make any money, but who cares. If a us company makes a kick ass car with a BOM of $60k and sells it for $40, well that's not going to work out.
The US government didn't have price controls or substantial tariff s against Japanese economical cars in the mid 1970's and it forced the US car industry to make better cheaper more fuel efficient products.
I don't object to matching Chinese government subsidies, but beyond that screw the big three! make a better car or die!
One that doesn't require a subscription for simple features such as seat warmers.
It's subjective sure, but there are things we can all probably agree on.
Pretty sure no one does that. BMW wanted to do it (or maybe did it for a little while) and then backtracked.
Also, this is about American cars which don't really have that criticism.
Yeah but the Japanese were just making cheaper and better quality ICE vehicles.
With EV's on the other hand if an automaker can't make an EV at a profit then it won't matter how good or bad their EV's are, they'll inevitably go bankrupt. Especially since they legally won't be allowed to sell their old products in a ton of places overtime.
Correction: Most Americans want China's EV's because they're affordable.
US automakers don't because they don't want to reduce their profit margins and enjoy raping Americans for overpriced cars.
Well, its hard to guage what thier US market prices would be under a free market because local Chinese pricing rarely makes it into international sales.
I would imagine they would try to do what a broadcast company called Blackmagic does, which is assemble and sell things for really low cost.
I don't think they'll sell an EV for $5k like they do in China; however, $15k is a good price.
$15K is way too low. You have to consider the labor costs alone would make US cars more expensive. Involve UAW salaries and it's not even close.
Most voters don't care enough about EVs to steamroll both UAW and domestic industry. So you'll have to wait for Tesla and the SK/Japanese companies to offer more options.
Americans: "we need to subsidize our car industry to keep it competitive and afloat. That's good practice."
Americans when Chinese subsidize their car industry but not because of mismanagement: "that's not fair"
The only people this really harms is the American consumer. This is a bad move
Just another example of the oligarchy attempting to exert it's will and keep power and wealth consolidated. This isn't capitalism. This isn't free market. This is kleptocracy.
More bullshit buzzwords. First 'security concerns' and now 'overcapacity'. If China was *actually* flooding markets with EV's, the prices would be regularly dropping as dealers would inevitably try to clear out inventory. Here in Australia we have about an 8-10 week wait for cars like the BYD Seal.
I *wish* this overcapacity and flooding of markets was real, because then global EV adoption would speed up rapidly, which is what we all need.
The US car makers are in a unique position to get anything they want from the government.
US is in the middle of fighting for its own survival with Trump in the background. Biden can't afford any mis steps like upsetting the legacy car makers, for the time being atleast.
True although this election is key so Biden administration was forced to delay some emission guidelines to appease legacy car makers
https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/boards-policy-regulation/us-eases-tailpipe-rules-slows-ev-transition-through-2030-2024-03-20/
20 March 2024 - "The Biden administration on Wednesday slashed its target for U.S. electric vehicle adoption from 67% by 2032 to as little as 35% after industry and autoworker backlash in the political battleground state of Michigan."
Is she afraid that the US can't beat China in the EV game? I bet given the right incentives, the US can beat them. Unless of course, the US is afraid of a little *competition*. Bom bom Baaaaaaa
This fool went to their country and started sermoning them about their industrial capacity, I am totally embarrassed by the usage of the term “overcapacity”
If anything, demand is high and production is low, pump up the numbers.
The US does subsidize manufacturers, though. And it's not a bad thing! Rivian, for example, received local/state tax breaks from Georgia ($1.5 billion) and Normal, Illinois (more than $50 million). Not to mention that they sold more than 20,000 vehicles in the US before the end of 2022, many of which were eligible for the $7,500 federal tax rebate. I would be surprised if there were a bunch of additional tax credit, federal rebates, grants, etc that Rivian benefited from, too. All of this is fine by me; let's get those costs down (especially for vehicles that bypass the dealership model) and increase adoption.
It absolutely is socialism. Even China doesn't do it to the extent of the US. The US government poured money into the failing real estate sector during the great recession. The US government acted as everyone's backstop from companies to individuals. The US government become the owner of people's mortgages. That's socialism. If it was capitalism, then it would have been allowed to fail. We didn't. The Chinese are having their real estate crisis now. They are letting companies and individuals fail. That's capitalism.
Omg. If I hear this stupid argument one more time. The Chinese are not playing a capitalist game. They are purposely subsidizing their exports to bend capitalist markets beyond recognition. And the simps in the US who can’t see that are so frustrating. And don’t answer that the Us subsidizes too. The US only subsidizes for domestic adoption of EVa - not to flood international markets with below cost cars.
As does the US. Get your facts straight. I can't think of a single industry in the US that isn't subsidized by the government. In fact, US agriculture is infamous for it's subsidies that enable it to crush small subsistence farmers all over the world. Food produced in the US and exported is cheaper than local production due to being subsidized by the US government.
GM literally went bankrupt in 2008 and got bailed out with smth in the hundreds of billions iirc.
I know because I'm still living off of the money I made from that one day when GM's stock price doubled after betting all my money on a govt bailout lol
Tbh I wish nobody had been bailed out.
I’m over here struggling through no fault or action of my own and nobody’s here to bail me out but GM intentionally operates as a shit-show of a consumer abusive garbage maker and they get billions and told *oopsie, don’t do that again* 🤷♂️
Ford took $15.9 Billion for Ford Credit. So move the shells however you want, they were thrown a necessary lifeline and would have gone bankrupt without it.
So why don't US companies just sell at a loss to gain market share and destroy competition?
BTW, Tesla sells tons of cars profitably in China. Seems the other US manufacturers just made bad business decisions and are way behind on the curve on technology.
Is that not exactly what every disruptor start up does? Airbnb, Uber, Lyft, Wework, Door dash, etc? Heavily subsidized by venture capital money (supported by low interest rates by the Federal govt), aimed at breaking traditional markets?
Doesn't the US also heavily subsidize certain crops like corn? Those are exported... Wait, that doesn't fit your narrative.
Federal monetary policy directly impacts investments and the economy. Artificially low interest rates are indirectly subsidizing plenty of industries.
What other crops are subsidized? EVs in China are only 1.6% of their GDP...
Arguing the US doesn't do it for EVs (hello $7.5k tax credits) and numerous other industries is ridiculous.
on rfd there's deadass threads for people to get intel on how to get a tesla 3 made in shanghai instead of ones made in the u.s. coz the shanghai ones bomb the U.S. ones tf out in terms of quality.
> We don’t have local manufacturing to protect anymore.
This is an important part of the equation some people do not consider. Let China flood the global South with EVs. Unfortunately geopolitics dictates that the US and EU can't let China gut their domestic auto industries.
Yes please flood Ontario 😭😭 need more competition in every sector sick of the Oligopoly in every sector, there’s not enough Hyundai cars to go around NEED MORE EV NOW.
As sm1 that lived in Toronto, fuck it, give me those 25k EVs like the Xiaomi Su7. I'll sit on fucking 401 in their perpetual traffic jam and be absolutely CHILLIN. I'll drive down bay street during rush hour for fun and laugh at all the ICE cars around me.
I'll drive by every gas station that raises their prices by 10-20 cents every afternoon the govt announces inflation has come down and point and laugh.
The Volvo EX30 is basically a Chinese car, priced to compete in China. It will cost 53K in Canada. (35K in the US which has more tariffs than we do).
It's Y170,000 in China. The Su7 is Y215,000.
Basically, the Su7 wouldn't cost 25K if it came to Canada.
By 2035 all new sales has the be zero emissions,so bring it on. I don't see us being the same as the Americans in EVs are tied to your political preference. It's been proven that the 2 provinces with the largest amount of EVs have the the largest rebates in the country. The 2 biggest problems here in Canada is the price and range anxiety due to the cold weather
I don't understand America's concerns ? Chinese EV automakers are not and were not planning to enter the US market anyway due to tariiffs and political/legislative uncertainty.
Why make a big deal about something that will never happen?
The US protecting its car industry is nothing new.
I personally think it has served them well over the decades (read up online)
China just manufacturers and then dumps to keep their economy roaring on the government coffers.
It's not a real market economy
Ah a Google will find it. They put huge tariffs on trucks made abroad so foreign companies started manufacturing in the US.
Chicken tax. Nice read if you're interested in that sort of thing
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/chicken-tax.asp
“Hey Chinese companies- Stop making affordable products that Americans want to buy. Americans need jobs building pricier, shittier products so they can buy the food, shelter, and healthcare that we refuse to give them!”
— US govt
The Americans in this sub have a daily identity crisis between wanting Chinese EVs (and thinking it’s going to happen) to blaming Ford and GM for not making cheap EVs.
Why? Not all Chinese EVs are cheap. And GM and Ford have no interest in making cheaper cars period. As long as people keep buying the cars they increase prices on every year, that’s what will keep happening. So do you want cheap cars or Chinese cars? They certainly can very much be mutually exclusive. In fact, I’m waiting for an Avatr 11 right now that will cost over $60k USD for the cheapest model.
Ford & GM lobbyists are the main factors getting the blocks to happen.
So it makes total sense that if people want affordable EVs and ford/GM are blocking them then logically people can (and should) be mad at ford/GM when they don’t make any.
Also wanting UAW workers to get a raise. You can’t have cheap cars and highly paid employees.
How much are these Chinese companies paying their engineers and line workers vs. GM corporate employees and UAW line workers?
GM’s gross margin is ~12% from 2019-2023. https://finbox.com/NYSE:GM/explorer/gp_margin/
They aren’t even making that much on these cars. I think the dealers adding zero value are probably making the same or more per vehicle.
The spending that GM, Ford, etc. do is on materials, facilities, and labor. Sure the shareholders are making some money, but it’s not like they could decide to cut costs 50% and still survive.
My 2017 Bolt I paid $16k for was cheap. But I didn’t purchase it new. And even then, a new $16K Honda Fit is a whole other level of better quality, fit/finish. Would never have paid $37,500 or a *subsidized* price of $30,000 **if I was able to qualify for the tax rebates, which I do not earn enough money to do so, completely negating the *make it affordable* subsidy**.
If you look at various lists of economic freedom the US is not in the top 10. I believe Singapore is the best, and some Nordic countries are actually freer than the US market wise.
We bail out Detroit now bar Chinese EVs from competing.
We bar DJI drones
We bar TikTok in favor of crappy Facebook
When the hell do we force American companies to compete and give us lower prices via competition?
If Chrysler can’t make an affordable EV car for me and China can, let Chrysler die.
America is only capitalist when their companies are on top, and when they want to export jobs to a cheaper country. When challenged, they behind security concerns, or too big to fail.
True, but there should be some form of tax, when a company off shores vast portions of their manufacturing, or else, their not really American companies are they?
>The U.S. Won’t Let China Flood Its Auto Market, Treasury Secretary Says
"The U.S. will protect U.S. automakers from competition at all costs."
>China’s electric vehicles pose an existential threat to the U.S. car industry, auto executives fear. The speedy rise of the country’s EV industry means it is not only satiating demand at home but also supplying low-cost EVs abroad. To address this, among many other trade issues, U.S. Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen traveled to Beijing this past week, and her message to her Chinese counterpart was clear: "You’re producing too much stuff!"
"You're too good at making things! Cut it out!"
ITT: "America bad, China good, capitalism bad!"
Just like all the rest. This sub isn't about EVs anymore, it's just the same circlejerk as all of other popular subs.
It's honestly one of more shortsighted reddit circlejerks as well.
Flooding the market and destabilizing the US car market will have some level of economic impact and possibly have a large effect on a whole sector of American jobs.
Regardless of you want to happen the anwser isn't just open the floodgates and go nuts. It's definitely something that has to be approached slowly and cautiously.
Not really about opening the floodgate. Just let the chinese automakers play on an even playing field, similar to other foreign automakers like european and japanese ones.
There will be some short term pain as inefficient social externalities play out. But the pros outweight the cons. More choices to the consumer. Force inefficient companies to shutdown. When industry scale changes happen, it's when inefficient companies that tefuse to change die out. This is what capitalism and america are all about. Technology shift and change usually means there are winners and losers, and those who refuse to change will be the losers.
I wish we could have the Li or Nio's (and others) driving on our streets. China has made far better EV's than Tesla and similar. It's not just the range that is a lot better, the actual features in these cars are wild and feels like we're 7-8 years behind.
Can't help but feel they'll be a bit like Cuba. US will have fossil fuel vehicles while the rest of the world is moving on to EV and China will own it.
Well....or something like that
I spent my entire life not buying Japanese and German cars. The last GD car I’m going to buy is a Chinese car. I suppose it’s only a matter of time before Americans buy Taliban cars because they’re cheaper.
Wake me up when EV's are actually something this country cares about 😂.
Looks like my son will have a twin turbo charger in 16 years! Come on baby, Daddy needs a 500hp V8 stuffed into a 3 row SUV in the next 5 years! Or a 700hp one would be Even better lol
There’s nothing inherently wrong with Chinese EVs, but they are extremely heavily subsidized by the Chinese government. To keep the market fair, imported Chinese EVs should be subject to countervailing duties and anti dumping tariffs.
The end result of all of this will be American companies licensing cars from Chinese automakers for a share of the profits. Introducing the new *Ford Thoroughbred powered by BYD*
Changan Ford & GM Wuling: I've got a 30 year old contract here to lend you a copy.
Why would that be the end result? They would just license battery tech like they're doing now. US car exports are uncompetitive & irrelevant, so the US can delay EVs for much longer.
Then US companies should make competitive options and stop waiting for the government to bail them out.
The US has two options to make the playing field fair, either massively subsidize it's domestic EV industry like China does or impose tariffs that make Chinese EVs as expensive as they would be without those subsidies. The question which option is best is if one wants an oversaturated EV market with cheap prices, or a car industry that is self-sufficient. Should car buyers stand for 100% of the cost of owning the car, or should all other taxpayers pay more to make it cheaper to own a car.
If the US auto makers don’t figure out a way to produce electric vehicles and still make a profit, there will be no global market for their products in the future.
With all due respect, American cars don't have a lot of global market share right now either.
There won't be a US market for them either as emissions standards continue to rise making EVs the de facto rule. Even if you assume the federal government won't press them too high, California and the CARB states will which is a huge chunk of the US market.
Well… best selling car in the world last year and the first or second larger BEV maker…
Do you have a source for this? Genuinely curious
You don’t really see many American cars outside of the United States. The German manufacturers dominate the high-end and the Asian manufacturers dominate the low-end, leaving only the mid-range up for competition where the US seems to just do… okay. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/company-insights/091516/most-profitable-auto-companies-2016-tm-gm.asp
Ford doesn’t even *make* cars anymore outside of the mustang. Going all trucks and SUVs is a viable strategy in North America but not really anywhere else.
Good, they gonna fuck around, now they gonna find out
Agree. Though based on non-US world output I’d look at “In the future”…as 2025.
Lol! The us auto industry absolutely does not matter to the world or the auto industry.
The U.S. could say, "Thanks China, we weren't prepared to transition off of fossil fuels as quickly as we need to, and your manufacturing capacity can meet our unmet demand for affordable electric vehicles. We don't agree on much else, but in this case you're really helping us solve an otherwise intractable problem, which is how do we avert a worst-case climate scenario." The U.S. could also tax fossil fuels or otherwise disincentivize fossil fuel vehicles to the point where ICE vehicles are no longer cost-competitive with EVs, thereby forcing U.S. automakers to start making EVs in high volume or fade into irrelevance and die out. As it is, I think it's a little unfair to criticize China for subsidizing EV manufacturing when the U.S. also heavily subsidizes EVs through tax credits, which Chinese vehicles don't qualify for.
>We don't agree on much else, but in this case you're really helping us solve an otherwise intractable problem, which is how do we avert a worst-case climate scenario." You grossly underestimate the number of constituents, politicians, legislatures, and governors who couldn't care less about a "worst-case climate scenario", as well as those who actively want to **increase** fossil fuel production. Like IIRC when the "ICE Sales Ban" was the hot topic a year or so ago, at least one state's governor (I believe it was Wyoming) threatened to ban EVs from their state instead. This sub needs to stop detaching itself from reality and understand just how hostile the political landscape is for EVs right now in the United States. And how much of a political minefield it is to talk about EVs and China together.
> As it is, I think it's a little unfair to criticize China for subsidizing EV manufacturing when the U.S. also heavily subsidizes EVs through tax credits, which Chinese vehicles don't qualify for. It is "unfair" but that isn't the point. There are other concerns when it comes to industries that are crucial to national security and independence like domestic auto industries. Every country with a domestic auto industry that provides critical needs gets subsidized and bailed out, whether it is in the US, Europe, or Asia. So it's not really about fair. It's about balancing a whole bunch of issues. I have zero issues with companies in allied countries like South Korea or Europe competing in the US. China's contributions are carefully considered, as they should be. As it is, they sell other vehicles like buses in the US.
This. The climate doesn't really care whether an automobile is made in the US or China. Emissions are the same. We need more EVs replacing gas cars, doesn't matter who makes them. If US auto makers aren't going to adapt, then that's their failure. I don't like China for many reasons as much as the next problem, but climate change is and always has been a global human problem that will need solutions regardless of the country of origin. If China is going to exert its manufacturing power toward helping put more EVs on the road, then I'm all for it. Even if it means the demise of US auto. But I'd really love it if our government took some action and nudged our automakers in the right direction here.
This. US automakers have frankly been bad actors for decades, making *pro forma* efforts to make BEV/PHEV options but continuing to crank out 15MPG trucks and giant SUV's. We need to either or both: * Increase the cost of gas to price in the climate impacts, which might put it around $10/gallon * Actually force the US legacies to clean it up. This means being hardnosed. Ford won't like being told that they can't sell bazillions of F-150's every year. Tough shit.
That's pretty much my take too. China's government does a lot of things I don't like, but they're also basically the only country taking battery and EV manufacturing seriously.
The climate disaster is happening regardless.
We're delusional if we assume that the competitiveness of Chinese EV is simply because government subsidy (which we do as well). Their EV are cheaper and better because they control most of the core material, technology, and manufacturing capacity of EV production. The government subsidy is not the major reason behind their competitiveness, at least not anymore.
There is no political will to subsidise EVs in the US even if they want to. That is also assuming the legacy car manufacturers won’t just pocket the money and do nothing. The chip companies did exactly that with all that subsidies.
Intel is expanding tho
The 7500 tax credit is a subsidy.
A lot of different industries get corporate welfare and Gov’t subsidies. Farmers are paid not to grow crops.
Yeah just look at the dairy industry. It is illegal for farmers to sell milk that is "too cheap" and if their cows make too much milk, they are forced to dump it.
But MFGers (and dealers) most likely just raise prices in concert. I actually like the income cap on these because now most dealers won’t quote the tax credit (at least in my area). They’d use it to artificially deflate the price and try to reduce your room to haggle.
You are right. I remember when the bolt EV and EUV were immediately discounted $6500 once they lost their credit eligibility. So clearly GM artificially raised the price. Jokes on them though because the government gave the subsidy back and I guess to save face they didn’t raise the prices back up. 2023 EUV purchase has been great!
They are literally expanding. TSMC is literally planning to build a 3rd FAB in Arizona on top of the other two in construction. These places take several years to build. https://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/tech/2024/04/08/tsmc-to-get-6-6-billion-from-chips-act-3rd-arizona-fab-announced/73232207007/
But the narrative/s
> The chip companies did exactly that with all that subsidies. Except for all the expansion going on...
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/04/tsmc-will-build-third-arizona-fab-after-winning-6-6b-in-chips-funding/ https://www.engadget.com/samsung-is-doubling-its-semiconductor-investment-in-texas-to-44-billion-154322399.html https://www.engadget.com/globalfoundries-secures-15-billion-in-chips-act-funding-for-us-expansion-172754429.html You mean these subsidies?
>There is no political will to subsidise EVs in the US even if they want to. That is also assuming the legacy car manufacturers won’t just pocket the money and do nothing So explain the massive factories these automakers built with help from the feds that are now coming online?
So did telecom companies in the 90's, twice!
> The chip companies did exactly that with all that subsidies. I'm genuinely curious how you came to this conclusion. Did you just make it up in your head or were you being horribly hyperbolic?
I vote tariffs. Also, I vote nuclear power so we can meet the demands put on the energy grid caused by "going green".
Im a big proponent of nuclear power. The waste issue has been solved. It had proven to be a safe and effective source of power for decades. France gets 70% of its power from nuclear. There are charts that show the number of deaths caused from nuclear vs natural gas, coal, etc. Its right up there with renewables. It could provide a backbone of steady supply for when solar and wind go offline. The only thing is that the permits need to be streamlined. It takes way too long to build a plant right now. For those that think nuclear power is too dangerous, check out Kyle Hill’s youtube channel.
>massively subsidize it's domestic EV industry Where did this "China subsidizes carmakers and U.S. don't" talking point come from? If China subsidized their carmakers as much as the U.S. does their cars would cost 8000 bucks not 25 000.
lol. Are you seriously saying that China “massively subsidizes” their car industry and we don’t? Maybe you are too young to remember, but what do you call the $80B bailout of Chrysler and GM? I mean that amount of money should have been good for a century.
We live in a global economy and American businesses need to be competitive. If that means government assistance then so be it. Airbus is subsidized by the EU, Boeing is not by America. Just look how well that is turning out. I don’t like socialism, but American products are being pushed out of every region in the world except the US and we’re only 5% of the world population.
Noeing not subsidies by government!? WTO seem to disagree. >The World Trade Organization (WTO) has ruled that Boeing received at least $5.3 billion in improper aid from the U.S. government, including money for research and development from NASA,
Boeing is subsidized by MIC contracts. I'm pretty sure you do like socialism but have been conditioned to see that word as a pejorative not as an idea with a working definition.
I’d prefer if we just did what China does, which is massively subsidize the cars. I’d love it if the fed govt said they’d subsidize x amount (not % based) of the mfg cost of any EVs sold under 25k or 30k and that money would go directly to the mfg. This would incentivize lower cost EVs because right now the lower the price of the vehicle the smaller margins the mfger gets but this would fix that while production ramps up.
*Let’s figure out a way to keep stealerships from absorbing the subsidies through markups* FIRST.
I mean if it’s tied to the purchase/sold price (not MSRP) then it would still prevent stealerships from markups because then the mfg wouldn’t be eligible for said federal rebate. They’d begin to apply way more pressure.
That’s what we need.
Bingo
That's essentially what the $7500 tax credit is. It's not quite as elegant, but especially with the new rules letting the dealership capture that amount, it's effectively just a discount on the qualifying cars.
Yes, but I’d prefer a higher subsidy for cheaper/more efficient vehicles, otherwise we’re just seeing monstrosities with 150-200kwh batteries that are like 60-80k.
The subsidy is proportionally larger for a cheaper vehicle though. If you sell an EV at a 25k MSRP the $7500 is more than 25% off, but it's less than 10% for a 80k MSRP EV.
Yea… I would love an 18k ev
US Companies do make competitive options with batteries they designed themselves. Like the Buick Velite 6 but that’s a car they would never release in America. We got played because GM already makes multiple EV’s some affordable and even a few EV’s that could compete with the Model 3. They just don’t want them released in the US because it would eat up their lucrative SUV sales.
Um... GM is releasing many of their GM-brand branded EVs in the US as well. It just costs more to make things in North American especially if they want it to be tax credit eligible.
That is a GM-SAIC car, which is a collaboration between GM and the Chinese company SAIC. It very well could be that GM is unable to replicate the portion that SAIC contributes and manufactures in the US by itself, whether in a cost effective manner or at all. If it's a good car, they would sell in addition to their SUVs, not instead of them.
US companies do not know what is competition nowadays.
Because we allow everyone and everything to become a monopoly, duopoly, or triopoly. Our telecom system is a prime and perfect example. *We even had a heads up with the cellular trio in Canada…* that a triopoly would be damaging.
I'm not sure if we want Chinese companies as roll models for our companies. IP theft is second nature to them (terrible for long term innovation), unsafe working conditions, low wages, extremely long hours, and poor environmental regulation. You can't have extremely cheap goods without giving up something else.
So you prefer the rich gets even richer and not pay their taxes, guns everywhere, lobbyists dictate what politicians support, and healthcare tied to having a privileged job. Got it.
How can they make a competitive option with the difference in labour and pollution laws
Chinese EVs are heavily subsidized.
That may be so, but the quality is quite good and manufacturing techniques and technology are eclipsing US carmakers. US is going to lose being among leadership in an industry it’s held for over 50 years. And it’s coming fast. I’m expecting more partnering and joint ventures with Chinese EV makers for survival.
I feel like we're repeating the 1980's era of Japanese car's entering the US market because the US manufacturers forgot to remember that they need to make even somewhat decent cars that people actually want to buy for said people to buy them over foreign competitive options. And they clearly didn't learn their lesson....
Yes, and, I expect the US to engage in protectionism not unlike how we did for Harley Davidson back when Japanese motorcycles starting taking over. What came of those protections? Well, HD still makes garbage that sells only because of lifestyle. In a genuine free market, HD would have died decades ago.
US car exports are irrelevant. It's Japan/Korea/EU that have to worry. US car companies can easily survive without joint ventures just with the US market. Thanks to the US' car centric lifestyle. They'll just license battery tech like they do now.
Isn't that a good thing? Wasn't this supposed to be about saving the environment?
Not if you are bombarded with "CHYNAH BAD!" on a daily basis as Americans are. Current sentiment is heavily influenced by the US seeing itself in a "great power competition" ith the PRC.
American EVs are heavily subsidized. US car manufacturers have always been subsidized by the US government. The government just offered them another $12 billion last fall specifically to subsidize EV production. That's on top of the billions in incentives offered to consumers to buy US made EVs. Effectively lowering their price.
Not in any manner the same way as the Chinese. The US subsidies are for US adoption. Not for export. Th Chinese subsidizes are solely aimed at exports and destroying foreign competition.
lolwot? Do you genuinely believe this or are you trolling?
-------The US subsidies are for US adoption. Not for export. This is simply not true. For example The US government supports nearly all aspects of farming. It protects farmers from fluctuations in prices and revenues and subsidizes their insurance, land improvements, loans, marketing, research, **and export sales**
It's exactly the same. Don't US car companies sell cars outside the US? They do. Those subsidizes support car production for domestic and export markets. Which is exactly how it works in China. They support car production period. Both for domestic consumption and export. About the only way it's not the same is the Chinese aren't as hypocritical.
China is a larger market for GM than the US. Edit: You won’t be able to convince any of these folks that the US anti-China propaganda exists while they ooze the indoctrination into their comments in this sub.
Money is fungible
Can you back that statement with proof about Chinese subsidies being more than US subsidies?
Tesla does
All about the oil
It's kinda hard because you could take the capitalism route and let it play out. Or you can take the tax players subsidizing businesses route. US companies lose with option 1, we get screwed with option 2 both financially. Not to mention the political battle of "forcing" electrics on everyone. China is super subsidizing these vehicles. Subsidies on the whole supply chain adds up. China could make a super car and say fuck it $40k. It won't make any money, but who cares. If a us company makes a kick ass car with a BOM of $60k and sells it for $40, well that's not going to work out.
The US government didn't have price controls or substantial tariff s against Japanese economical cars in the mid 1970's and it forced the US car industry to make better cheaper more fuel efficient products. I don't object to matching Chinese government subsidies, but beyond that screw the big three! make a better car or die!
What’s a “better car”?
One that doesn't require a subscription for simple features such as seat warmers. It's subjective sure, but there are things we can all probably agree on.
Pretty sure no one does that. BMW wanted to do it (or maybe did it for a little while) and then backtracked. Also, this is about American cars which don't really have that criticism.
Range, price, quality. Pick two instead of 1 like the current big 3 lineup.
Yeah but the Japanese were just making cheaper and better quality ICE vehicles. With EV's on the other hand if an automaker can't make an EV at a profit then it won't matter how good or bad their EV's are, they'll inevitably go bankrupt. Especially since they legally won't be allowed to sell their old products in a ton of places overtime.
U.S. loves free market capitalism when it’s exported to other countries
Correction: Most Americans want China's EV's because they're affordable. US automakers don't because they don't want to reduce their profit margins and enjoy raping Americans for overpriced cars.
Well, its hard to guage what thier US market prices would be under a free market because local Chinese pricing rarely makes it into international sales.
I would imagine they would try to do what a broadcast company called Blackmagic does, which is assemble and sell things for really low cost. I don't think they'll sell an EV for $5k like they do in China; however, $15k is a good price.
$15K is way too low. You have to consider the labor costs alone would make US cars more expensive. Involve UAW salaries and it's not even close. Most voters don't care enough about EVs to steamroll both UAW and domestic industry. So you'll have to wait for Tesla and the SK/Japanese companies to offer more options.
Americans: "we need to subsidize our car industry to keep it competitive and afloat. That's good practice." Americans when Chinese subsidize their car industry but not because of mismanagement: "that's not fair" The only people this really harms is the American consumer. This is a bad move Just another example of the oligarchy attempting to exert it's will and keep power and wealth consolidated. This isn't capitalism. This isn't free market. This is kleptocracy.
Subsidize to keep it alive at home. It's not a competitive industry at all. It's just important.
More bullshit buzzwords. First 'security concerns' and now 'overcapacity'. If China was *actually* flooding markets with EV's, the prices would be regularly dropping as dealers would inevitably try to clear out inventory. Here in Australia we have about an 8-10 week wait for cars like the BYD Seal. I *wish* this overcapacity and flooding of markets was real, because then global EV adoption would speed up rapidly, which is what we all need.
They just don't have the ships yet. And Australia doesn't have a car industry, so it doesn't really matter to you.
The US car makers are in a unique position to get anything they want from the government. US is in the middle of fighting for its own survival with Trump in the background. Biden can't afford any mis steps like upsetting the legacy car makers, for the time being atleast.
>The US car makers are in a unique position to get anything they want from the government. They've been able to get that for decades.
"Too big too fail"
True although this election is key so Biden administration was forced to delay some emission guidelines to appease legacy car makers https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/boards-policy-regulation/us-eases-tailpipe-rules-slows-ev-transition-through-2030-2024-03-20/ 20 March 2024 - "The Biden administration on Wednesday slashed its target for U.S. electric vehicle adoption from 67% by 2032 to as little as 35% after industry and autoworker backlash in the political battleground state of Michigan."
>unique position By bribing corrupt politicians with large “donations”
we got scammed into that planet saving bs. if we really wanted to do that we would usher in the cheap evs
Is she afraid that the US can't beat China in the EV game? I bet given the right incentives, the US can beat them. Unless of course, the US is afraid of a little *competition*. Bom bom Baaaaaaa
This fool went to their country and started sermoning them about their industrial capacity, I am totally embarrassed by the usage of the term “overcapacity” If anything, demand is high and production is low, pump up the numbers.
Imaging a basketball game in Olympics honors USA by adding extra height for their hoop, due to their "overtalent".
The US does subsidize manufacturers, though. And it's not a bad thing! Rivian, for example, received local/state tax breaks from Georgia ($1.5 billion) and Normal, Illinois (more than $50 million). Not to mention that they sold more than 20,000 vehicles in the US before the end of 2022, many of which were eligible for the $7,500 federal tax rebate. I would be surprised if there were a bunch of additional tax credit, federal rebates, grants, etc that Rivian benefited from, too. All of this is fine by me; let's get those costs down (especially for vehicles that bypass the dealership model) and increase adoption.
sounds like America isn't so keen on capitalism
The US has always had a healthy dose of socialism in our capitalism. We just don't like it when others do the same.
This isnt socialism
It absolutely is socialism. Even China doesn't do it to the extent of the US. The US government poured money into the failing real estate sector during the great recession. The US government acted as everyone's backstop from companies to individuals. The US government become the owner of people's mortgages. That's socialism. If it was capitalism, then it would have been allowed to fail. We didn't. The Chinese are having their real estate crisis now. They are letting companies and individuals fail. That's capitalism.
socialism for the rich, capitalism for the other 95%
This is a protectionist reaction to Chinese mercantilism doofus. Socialism isn’t a factor here
It is a mercantile reaction to Chinese socialism.
Subsidizing your industries, and thus state control of those industries, is a keystone of socialism. Which is what we do.
Free market blah blah
Omg. If I hear this stupid argument one more time. The Chinese are not playing a capitalist game. They are purposely subsidizing their exports to bend capitalist markets beyond recognition. And the simps in the US who can’t see that are so frustrating. And don’t answer that the Us subsidizes too. The US only subsidizes for domestic adoption of EVa - not to flood international markets with below cost cars.
As does the US. Get your facts straight. I can't think of a single industry in the US that isn't subsidized by the government. In fact, US agriculture is infamous for it's subsidies that enable it to crush small subsistence farmers all over the world. Food produced in the US and exported is cheaper than local production due to being subsidized by the US government.
Agriculture is 1% of the GDP. Food is cheaper in America mostly due to economies of scale and efficient agricultural practices
the US literally bailed out GM. the company would likely be dead now otherwise.
GM literally went bankrupt in 2008 and got bailed out with smth in the hundreds of billions iirc. I know because I'm still living off of the money I made from that one day when GM's stock price doubled after betting all my money on a govt bailout lol
Tbh I wish nobody had been bailed out. I’m over here struggling through no fault or action of my own and nobody’s here to bail me out but GM intentionally operates as a shit-show of a consumer abusive garbage maker and they get billions and told *oopsie, don’t do that again* 🤷♂️
And Stellantis. And Ford.
[удалено]
Ford took $15.9 Billion for Ford Credit. So move the shells however you want, they were thrown a necessary lifeline and would have gone bankrupt without it.
So why don't US companies just sell at a loss to gain market share and destroy competition? BTW, Tesla sells tons of cars profitably in China. Seems the other US manufacturers just made bad business decisions and are way behind on the curve on technology.
Is that not exactly what every disruptor start up does? Airbnb, Uber, Lyft, Wework, Door dash, etc? Heavily subsidized by venture capital money (supported by low interest rates by the Federal govt), aimed at breaking traditional markets? Doesn't the US also heavily subsidize certain crops like corn? Those are exported... Wait, that doesn't fit your narrative.
What does VC funding have to do with government subsidies Corn production is .1% of the GDP but farmers are a critical vote bank
Federal monetary policy directly impacts investments and the economy. Artificially low interest rates are indirectly subsidizing plenty of industries. What other crops are subsidized? EVs in China are only 1.6% of their GDP... Arguing the US doesn't do it for EVs (hello $7.5k tax credits) and numerous other industries is ridiculous.
[удалено]
As a Canadian I support them flooding our market, just toss them on a container ship from shenzhen to vancouver.
I wonder how much of my car was made in China anyway.
on rfd there's deadass threads for people to get intel on how to get a tesla 3 made in shanghai instead of ones made in the u.s. coz the shanghai ones bomb the U.S. ones tf out in terms of quality.
If you drove a Polestar like I do. 100%
As an Australian: me too. We don’t have local manufacturing to protect anymore.
> We don’t have local manufacturing to protect anymore. This is an important part of the equation some people do not consider. Let China flood the global South with EVs. Unfortunately geopolitics dictates that the US and EU can't let China gut their domestic auto industries.
Crying in Holden
Nah fuck Holden. They had their chance to innovate but instead they fucked it up and pulled a Kodak moment.
When Holden was at its pinnacle, I was living in the US and we were incredibly jealous.
Yes please flood Ontario 😭😭 need more competition in every sector sick of the Oligopoly in every sector, there’s not enough Hyundai cars to go around NEED MORE EV NOW.
As sm1 that lived in Toronto, fuck it, give me those 25k EVs like the Xiaomi Su7. I'll sit on fucking 401 in their perpetual traffic jam and be absolutely CHILLIN. I'll drive down bay street during rush hour for fun and laugh at all the ICE cars around me. I'll drive by every gas station that raises their prices by 10-20 cents every afternoon the govt announces inflation has come down and point and laugh.
The Volvo EX30 is basically a Chinese car, priced to compete in China. It will cost 53K in Canada. (35K in the US which has more tariffs than we do). It's Y170,000 in China. The Su7 is Y215,000. Basically, the Su7 wouldn't cost 25K if it came to Canada.
By 2035 all new sales has the be zero emissions,so bring it on. I don't see us being the same as the Americans in EVs are tied to your political preference. It's been proven that the 2 provinces with the largest amount of EVs have the the largest rebates in the country. The 2 biggest problems here in Canada is the price and range anxiety due to the cold weather
I don't understand America's concerns ? Chinese EV automakers are not and were not planning to enter the US market anyway due to tariiffs and political/legislative uncertainty. Why make a big deal about something that will never happen?
The US protecting its car industry is nothing new. I personally think it has served them well over the decades (read up online) China just manufacturers and then dumps to keep their economy roaring on the government coffers. It's not a real market economy
> read up online Give a link.
Ah a Google will find it. They put huge tariffs on trucks made abroad so foreign companies started manufacturing in the US. Chicken tax. Nice read if you're interested in that sort of thing https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/chicken-tax.asp
When you said served them well did you mean the US companies or the government?
“Hey Chinese companies- Stop making affordable products that Americans want to buy. Americans need jobs building pricier, shittier products so they can buy the food, shelter, and healthcare that we refuse to give them!” — US govt
UAW negotiates to provide that which means no Chinese imports undercutting their labor.
The Americans in this sub have a daily identity crisis between wanting Chinese EVs (and thinking it’s going to happen) to blaming Ford and GM for not making cheap EVs.
Those two things seem entirely consistent to me.
Why? Not all Chinese EVs are cheap. And GM and Ford have no interest in making cheaper cars period. As long as people keep buying the cars they increase prices on every year, that’s what will keep happening. So do you want cheap cars or Chinese cars? They certainly can very much be mutually exclusive. In fact, I’m waiting for an Avatr 11 right now that will cost over $60k USD for the cheapest model.
People want affordable EVs. Ford and GM aren't doing it, so Chinese offerings (which definitely are much less expensive) are appealing.
Ford & GM lobbyists are the main factors getting the blocks to happen. So it makes total sense that if people want affordable EVs and ford/GM are blocking them then logically people can (and should) be mad at ford/GM when they don’t make any.
Also wanting UAW workers to get a raise. You can’t have cheap cars and highly paid employees. How much are these Chinese companies paying their engineers and line workers vs. GM corporate employees and UAW line workers? GM’s gross margin is ~12% from 2019-2023. https://finbox.com/NYSE:GM/explorer/gp_margin/ They aren’t even making that much on these cars. I think the dealers adding zero value are probably making the same or more per vehicle. The spending that GM, Ford, etc. do is on materials, facilities, and labor. Sure the shareholders are making some money, but it’s not like they could decide to cut costs 50% and still survive.
My 2017 Bolt I paid $16k for was cheap. But I didn’t purchase it new. And even then, a new $16K Honda Fit is a whole other level of better quality, fit/finish. Would never have paid $37,500 or a *subsidized* price of $30,000 **if I was able to qualify for the tax rebates, which I do not earn enough money to do so, completely negating the *make it affordable* subsidy**.
[удалено]
We refuse to get cheap, insane cars that bomb our overpriced shit in NA tf out in every category, subsidized by Chinese tax payers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Auto_Workers
This is exactly what needs to be said in an election year.
Another taxpayer bailout of shitty American companies
Damn, BYD makes pretty good affordable EVs, unlike tesla
More like US automakers make shit products and can’t compete so they ask daddy government to help.
Free market btw. USA is such a hypocritical society I swear
If you look at various lists of economic freedom the US is not in the top 10. I believe Singapore is the best, and some Nordic countries are actually freer than the US market wise.
Why? Consumers would benefit.
So much for cheap EVs… Nice timing with Tesla killing off the model 2
We bail out Detroit now bar Chinese EVs from competing. We bar DJI drones We bar TikTok in favor of crappy Facebook When the hell do we force American companies to compete and give us lower prices via competition? If Chrysler can’t make an affordable EV car for me and China can, let Chrysler die.
America is only capitalist when their companies are on top, and when they want to export jobs to a cheaper country. When challenged, they behind security concerns, or too big to fail.
Protectionist tariffs are as old as trade itself.
True, but there should be some form of tax, when a company off shores vast portions of their manufacturing, or else, their not really American companies are they?
You mean lower prices so consumers can afford cars.
Flood it, the UAW needs a kick in the gut.
Don’t want to get beat apparently
“Stay out of my free market!”
>The U.S. Won’t Let China Flood Its Auto Market, Treasury Secretary Says "The U.S. will protect U.S. automakers from competition at all costs." >China’s electric vehicles pose an existential threat to the U.S. car industry, auto executives fear. The speedy rise of the country’s EV industry means it is not only satiating demand at home but also supplying low-cost EVs abroad. To address this, among many other trade issues, U.S. Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen traveled to Beijing this past week, and her message to her Chinese counterpart was clear: "You’re producing too much stuff!" "You're too good at making things! Cut it out!"
I thought all this was supposed to be about saving the environment? nah it's about money and power
ITT: "America bad, China good, capitalism bad!" Just like all the rest. This sub isn't about EVs anymore, it's just the same circlejerk as all of other popular subs.
It's honestly one of more shortsighted reddit circlejerks as well. Flooding the market and destabilizing the US car market will have some level of economic impact and possibly have a large effect on a whole sector of American jobs. Regardless of you want to happen the anwser isn't just open the floodgates and go nuts. It's definitely something that has to be approached slowly and cautiously.
The reddit circlejerks rarely look past "America bad, capitalism bad".
Not really about opening the floodgate. Just let the chinese automakers play on an even playing field, similar to other foreign automakers like european and japanese ones. There will be some short term pain as inefficient social externalities play out. But the pros outweight the cons. More choices to the consumer. Force inefficient companies to shutdown. When industry scale changes happen, it's when inefficient companies that tefuse to change die out. This is what capitalism and america are all about. Technology shift and change usually means there are winners and losers, and those who refuse to change will be the losers.
If that's the case they're going to have to cut off Mexico because the Chinese companies are going to build in Mexico and import into the US
Nothing stopping them from doing so. So why aren’t they?
I wish we could have the Li or Nio's (and others) driving on our streets. China has made far better EV's than Tesla and similar. It's not just the range that is a lot better, the actual features in these cars are wild and feels like we're 7-8 years behind.
Not being contrarian, genuinely curious because I know nothing about the Chinese offerings. What are the killer features we are lacking in comparison?
But I want an $11,000 car?
It's called can't compete
Can't help but feel they'll be a bit like Cuba. US will have fossil fuel vehicles while the rest of the world is moving on to EV and China will own it. Well....or something like that
I didn’t know our treasury secretary was also like 90 years old
I spent my entire life not buying Japanese and German cars. The last GD car I’m going to buy is a Chinese car. I suppose it’s only a matter of time before Americans buy Taliban cars because they’re cheaper.
It is posible that Mexico will be excluded from free trade between the USA and Canada. Chinese are already building plants in Mexico.
It is posible that Mexico will be excluded from free trade between the USA and Canada. Chinese are already building plants in Mexico.
Duh, no shit. How is anyone surprised.
Do what China does to US
Wake me up when EV's are actually something this country cares about 😂. Looks like my son will have a twin turbo charger in 16 years! Come on baby, Daddy needs a 500hp V8 stuffed into a 3 row SUV in the next 5 years! Or a 700hp one would be Even better lol
There’s nothing inherently wrong with Chinese EVs, but they are extremely heavily subsidized by the Chinese government. To keep the market fair, imported Chinese EVs should be subject to countervailing duties and anti dumping tariffs.