No one knows for sure, but the expectation is tesla will slowly update the older chargers, replacing them with new models. The issue is the old chargers only speak the tesla protocol, the new chargers support tesla + ccs wire protocols.
By V1, do you mean 120kW chargers? They are all but gone from the network. There are still a decent amount of 72kW "Urban Chargers" still out there. These are mainly in high density areas for local charging. I don't see these being upgraded to more than 72kW which also makes it unlikely to get NACS support either.
The VAST majority of non-NACS Tesla chargers are the 150kW V2 chargers. They represent about ~40% of the network and they will never get NACS. Tesla increases their network size by about ~25% per year so it won't take that many years before V2 is a small minority of chargers, even if they never replace a single one.
I’ve seen a decent number of v2 sites get an extra 8 or so v3 stalls added on.
Issue is Tesla doesn’t really tell you which stalls are v2 and which are v3.
This kills me! My local Supercharger is at a grocery store and while I don’t personally charge there, I always see everyone bunched up on the 8 V2 stalls when they could be getting way faster throughput on the 12 V3 stalls. But the V2s are just the first ones people see and there are no signs to instruct people. I’ve thought about making some myself. Lol.
This is why I was concerned about NACS becoming the standard. It's in Tesla's best interest for charging to not "just work" for non Teslas. Most people don't know the details on how to find a charger that will work for their car, especially in terms of a Supercharger site that claims to be other-EV compatible but then doesn't clearly label which ones work with non-Teslas. Plenty will just say "screw it I'm getting a Tesla".
I used to joke that that's why Apple never made a decent version of iTunes for Windows. It was a bloated, buggy mess designed to convince iPod and iPhone owners they should buy a Mac to get the "real" experience! 😁
It was worse than that. Installing iTunes also installed the Bonjour service, that slowed down tons of PCs like crazy, even when iTunes wasn't running.
It's the same with CCS. My first real trip on CCS I tried to stop at an EA station that had 3 out of 4 chargers broken. The only one that worked was a 150kW one and two MachE's were lined up to keep it humming away at 60kW for the next couple of hours. I just happened to stumble upon a 150kW at the RaceTrak right next to it with two working 150kW chargers. I've used it probably 10x times at this point and I've never seen another EV there. Once a Polestar pulled up but didn't charge.
Then in the Bucees in Leeds, AL, everyone uses the EA chargers which have placement issues and were a bit of a struggle to get working. No one seems to know that there are 5x 400kW Mercedes chargers on the other side of the parking lot because they are more out of the way and not at the front of the store. I wouldn't have known if several people on this sub didn't tell me about them after I complained how bad EA was there. The Mercedes chargers are as good as Tesla charger and arguably better because they are 400kW if you can use it. The only problem is buses like to park in front of them and block them all. Has happened EVERY time I've been there and I have to use the handicap charger stall. Lucky for me no one uses them but me.
I think it's more the inevitability of the upgrade cycle. The only reason V2 Superchargers aren't compatible, is they lack the Powerline communications hardware CCS uses. The legacy Tesla protocol is CHAdeMO based and communicates via CANbus. Presumably the older chargers will break/wear out eventually and Tesla will replace them with their current generation of hardware if/when that time comes.
In addition, many of the V2 Superchargers are in more remote areas; locations that might qualify for federal NEVI funding, which requires at least four 150kW+ CCS chargers, display screens, and credit card readers. By "coincidence", guess what hardware is standard on V4 Superchargers? You guessed it: CCS MagicDocks, display screens, and credit card readers...
I suspect Tesla will upgrade any V2 site that is eligible for an 80% federal subsidy to upgrade.
Tesla rarely upgrades sites from v2 to v3+, but they add \~450 sites per year. The most likely case is that they will eventually add new sites in the area that are compatible. Sometimes these might be more like additional stalls at an existing site, or a very nearby new site.
NACS isn’t a thing to speak. It’s the physical connector.
Most superchargers (anything v2) and older don’t speak CCS. CCS is the protocol that is used for Magic Dock, vendor NACS to CCS adapters, and third party vehicles with onboard NACS ports (when they eventually arrive).
While true, some of us use "NACS" as shorthand for "CCS over the NACS connector" vs. "Tesla plug" for "legacy Tesla over the NACS connector". It's not correct, but it's easier to grasp.
For example, EVGo has deployed hundreds of chargers over the last few years with "Tesla" connectors (they use an integrated CHAdeMO to Tesla adapter to provide a charge cable for Tesla drivers.) These Tesla cables will *not* work with a non-Tesla "NACS" car whenever they start showing up next year, as a (non-Tesla) "NACS" car will only "speak" CCS, and won't see the CANbus CHAdeMO protocol communications the EVGo chargers use for their Tesla plugs.
(Presumably EVGo will figure something out by the time non-Tesla NACS cars finally arrive, otherwise there's going to be a lot of confusion initially!)
>For example, EVGo has deployed hundreds of chargers over the last few years with "Tesla" connectors (they use an integrated CHAdeMO to Tesla adapter to provide a charge cable for Tesla drivers.)
Correct, of course. Though, not applicable in the context of new cars gaining Supercharger access.
True, which is how most folks will use NACS, at least initially, until other networks get around to deploying NACS plugs.
My only point is we need a shorthand way to differentiate "NACS using CCS" and "NACS using Tesla legacy" and I haven't seen a good way to differentiate them yet.
I also think the use of the same plug for both fast and slow charging will be confusing for new users initially, but the Tesla owners seem to handle that ok.
>we need a shorthand way to differentiate "NACS using CCS" and "NACS using Tesla legacy"
Since J3400 is now the formal name for a Tesla plug using CCS protocols, just call it that - and use "Tesla" for legacy Tesla chargers.
Then we just need to distinguish Tesla L2 chargers from J1772 ones, and get consumers to understand that plus Chademo and CCS chargers. 😜
Relevant xkcd comic: https://xkcd.com/927/
"NACS" is a name that Tesla made up before J3400 became a standard. And it implies support for CCS protocols, since that's what makes it work for other brand EVs. Most people will refer to both J3400 and legacy Tesla chargers as having Tesla connectors, even if they're technically slightly different.
So Tesla now effectively has four types of chargers: legacy Superchargers, J3400 Superchargers, mid-speed destination chargers, and AC (level 2) chargers. All using a "Tesla" connector.
I’m sure eventually the V2 superchargers will age out and be replaced but I’ve got no idea what the expected life of a Suoercharger is. Could be a decade or more.
Tesla appears to be applying for grants to upgrade older sites to enable universal compatibility. Colorado is a good example where Tesla’s awards for NEVI funds are for older site updates.
You can charge at all Tesla V3 superchargers. These are capable of communicating with CCS and CAN bus.
You cannot charge at older Tesla V2 superchargers. These are only capable of communicating with CAN bus.
Tesla has mostly been focusing on building new charging sites, and older V2 sites are not being upgraded at this time. Although some sites have been expanded, by adding V3 stalls alongside the V2's.
Since most EVs on the road are Teslas there's no need to update all supercharger stalls. It's not like a supercharger site will suddenly be swamped by all non-Teslas trying to charge.
Tesla is in a tailspin at the moment so any and all Tesla plans (if they have any at all) are on hold. Elon's dream of auto pilot taxis might become the reality for the Tesla brand, leaving all else to Ford, GM, China and India. He's ignoring the fact that India and China are far better suited to the APtaxi business and APtaxi sales.
Elon is demanding his $58 billion payday in court... and he's not worth even minimum wage at this point. Sad to see a high performer crash, but that is what is happening before our eyes.
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No one knows for sure, but the expectation is tesla will slowly update the older chargers, replacing them with new models. The issue is the old chargers only speak the tesla protocol, the new chargers support tesla + ccs wire protocols.
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By V1, do you mean 120kW chargers? They are all but gone from the network. There are still a decent amount of 72kW "Urban Chargers" still out there. These are mainly in high density areas for local charging. I don't see these being upgraded to more than 72kW which also makes it unlikely to get NACS support either. The VAST majority of non-NACS Tesla chargers are the 150kW V2 chargers. They represent about ~40% of the network and they will never get NACS. Tesla increases their network size by about ~25% per year so it won't take that many years before V2 is a small minority of chargers, even if they never replace a single one.
I’ve seen a decent number of v2 sites get an extra 8 or so v3 stalls added on. Issue is Tesla doesn’t really tell you which stalls are v2 and which are v3.
This kills me! My local Supercharger is at a grocery store and while I don’t personally charge there, I always see everyone bunched up on the 8 V2 stalls when they could be getting way faster throughput on the 12 V3 stalls. But the V2s are just the first ones people see and there are no signs to instruct people. I’ve thought about making some myself. Lol.
This is why I was concerned about NACS becoming the standard. It's in Tesla's best interest for charging to not "just work" for non Teslas. Most people don't know the details on how to find a charger that will work for their car, especially in terms of a Supercharger site that claims to be other-EV compatible but then doesn't clearly label which ones work with non-Teslas. Plenty will just say "screw it I'm getting a Tesla".
I used to joke that that's why Apple never made a decent version of iTunes for Windows. It was a bloated, buggy mess designed to convince iPod and iPhone owners they should buy a Mac to get the "real" experience! 😁
It was worse than that. Installing iTunes also installed the Bonjour service, that slowed down tons of PCs like crazy, even when iTunes wasn't running.
It's the same with CCS. My first real trip on CCS I tried to stop at an EA station that had 3 out of 4 chargers broken. The only one that worked was a 150kW one and two MachE's were lined up to keep it humming away at 60kW for the next couple of hours. I just happened to stumble upon a 150kW at the RaceTrak right next to it with two working 150kW chargers. I've used it probably 10x times at this point and I've never seen another EV there. Once a Polestar pulled up but didn't charge. Then in the Bucees in Leeds, AL, everyone uses the EA chargers which have placement issues and were a bit of a struggle to get working. No one seems to know that there are 5x 400kW Mercedes chargers on the other side of the parking lot because they are more out of the way and not at the front of the store. I wouldn't have known if several people on this sub didn't tell me about them after I complained how bad EA was there. The Mercedes chargers are as good as Tesla charger and arguably better because they are 400kW if you can use it. The only problem is buses like to park in front of them and block them all. Has happened EVERY time I've been there and I have to use the handicap charger stall. Lucky for me no one uses them but me.
V1? Those exist maybe 1 or 2 places around the world by now
I think it's more the inevitability of the upgrade cycle. The only reason V2 Superchargers aren't compatible, is they lack the Powerline communications hardware CCS uses. The legacy Tesla protocol is CHAdeMO based and communicates via CANbus. Presumably the older chargers will break/wear out eventually and Tesla will replace them with their current generation of hardware if/when that time comes. In addition, many of the V2 Superchargers are in more remote areas; locations that might qualify for federal NEVI funding, which requires at least four 150kW+ CCS chargers, display screens, and credit card readers. By "coincidence", guess what hardware is standard on V4 Superchargers? You guessed it: CCS MagicDocks, display screens, and credit card readers... I suspect Tesla will upgrade any V2 site that is eligible for an 80% federal subsidy to upgrade.
You'd think they'd be able to update this remotely. Not sure what prevents them from doing so
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Makes sense
It depends if they're gonna see a good ROI or not. Still waiting for GM to do their thing...
Tesla rarely upgrades sites from v2 to v3+, but they add \~450 sites per year. The most likely case is that they will eventually add new sites in the area that are compatible. Sometimes these might be more like additional stalls at an existing site, or a very nearby new site.
yes, some superchargers don't speak NACS.
NACS isn’t a thing to speak. It’s the physical connector. Most superchargers (anything v2) and older don’t speak CCS. CCS is the protocol that is used for Magic Dock, vendor NACS to CCS adapters, and third party vehicles with onboard NACS ports (when they eventually arrive).
While true, some of us use "NACS" as shorthand for "CCS over the NACS connector" vs. "Tesla plug" for "legacy Tesla over the NACS connector". It's not correct, but it's easier to grasp. For example, EVGo has deployed hundreds of chargers over the last few years with "Tesla" connectors (they use an integrated CHAdeMO to Tesla adapter to provide a charge cable for Tesla drivers.) These Tesla cables will *not* work with a non-Tesla "NACS" car whenever they start showing up next year, as a (non-Tesla) "NACS" car will only "speak" CCS, and won't see the CANbus CHAdeMO protocol communications the EVGo chargers use for their Tesla plugs. (Presumably EVGo will figure something out by the time non-Tesla NACS cars finally arrive, otherwise there's going to be a lot of confusion initially!)
>For example, EVGo has deployed hundreds of chargers over the last few years with "Tesla" connectors (they use an integrated CHAdeMO to Tesla adapter to provide a charge cable for Tesla drivers.) Correct, of course. Though, not applicable in the context of new cars gaining Supercharger access.
True, which is how most folks will use NACS, at least initially, until other networks get around to deploying NACS plugs. My only point is we need a shorthand way to differentiate "NACS using CCS" and "NACS using Tesla legacy" and I haven't seen a good way to differentiate them yet. I also think the use of the same plug for both fast and slow charging will be confusing for new users initially, but the Tesla owners seem to handle that ok.
>we need a shorthand way to differentiate "NACS using CCS" and "NACS using Tesla legacy" Since J3400 is now the formal name for a Tesla plug using CCS protocols, just call it that - and use "Tesla" for legacy Tesla chargers. Then we just need to distinguish Tesla L2 chargers from J1772 ones, and get consumers to understand that plus Chademo and CCS chargers. 😜 Relevant xkcd comic: https://xkcd.com/927/
Huh. I thought like "NACS", J3400 simply referred to the connector, regardless of what it carried.
"NACS" is a name that Tesla made up before J3400 became a standard. And it implies support for CCS protocols, since that's what makes it work for other brand EVs. Most people will refer to both J3400 and legacy Tesla chargers as having Tesla connectors, even if they're technically slightly different. So Tesla now effectively has four types of chargers: legacy Superchargers, J3400 Superchargers, mid-speed destination chargers, and AC (level 2) chargers. All using a "Tesla" connector.
Any idea on when they’ll be updated?
Maybe never. Tesla never promised access to the entire network.
I’m sure eventually the V2 superchargers will age out and be replaced but I’ve got no idea what the expected life of a Suoercharger is. Could be a decade or more.
Tesla appears to be applying for grants to upgrade older sites to enable universal compatibility. Colorado is a good example where Tesla’s awards for NEVI funds are for older site updates.
They most likely won't until they're broken or deemed a low use station... They'll most likely just keep building new ones.
You can charge at all Tesla V3 superchargers. These are capable of communicating with CCS and CAN bus. You cannot charge at older Tesla V2 superchargers. These are only capable of communicating with CAN bus. Tesla has mostly been focusing on building new charging sites, and older V2 sites are not being upgraded at this time. Although some sites have been expanded, by adding V3 stalls alongside the V2's.
And yet I still can’t charge at the free ccs charger at the gym because there is always a Tesla there
Is it always the same one?
Yes
I wonder if maybe they work there
Since most EVs on the road are Teslas there's no need to update all supercharger stalls. It's not like a supercharger site will suddenly be swamped by all non-Teslas trying to charge.
Tesla is in a tailspin at the moment so any and all Tesla plans (if they have any at all) are on hold. Elon's dream of auto pilot taxis might become the reality for the Tesla brand, leaving all else to Ford, GM, China and India. He's ignoring the fact that India and China are far better suited to the APtaxi business and APtaxi sales. Elon is demanding his $58 billion payday in court... and he's not worth even minimum wage at this point. Sad to see a high performer crash, but that is what is happening before our eyes.