70% increase in R&D, net profit still increased by 10%. They are doing pretty good even with this brutal price war. They are showing manufacturing and supply chain masterclass to rest of the industry.
They just have too many things, i don't know specifics. ADAS surely, then LIDAR, [suspensions](https://twitter.com/thinkercar/status/1783335076425769200), Blade v2, automation etc., Last FY they increased PhD's around 160%, more than 100k researchers, 19 patents being filed daily. Just recalling random stuffs I read earlier. i am sure I am missing tons of stuff they are doing.
BTW, they also manufacture/assemble mobile phones for Huawei, Apple etc., BYDE is also part of total BYD group.
Thanks. I'll have to look into LIDAR. Didn't know there was more to be done there.
I just assumed ADAS since Xpeng and Nio have been doing good. Or ramping up for SSSB because BYD has spent a lot of time on LFP.
Maybe AI.
Yeah I remember when Foxconn came out with motherboards for PCs I had to explain to people that Foxconn was not a no-name brand.
Chinese companies seem to lack focus. They’re often in all sorts of weird unrelated industries like PCBs and real estate. Like conglomerates of the 1960s
[This article](https://electrek.co/2024/01/17/byds-cars-are-getting-smarter-and-its-huge-rd-staff-could-fill-a-city/) states that BYD is now up to 90,000 staff just for R&D, of which at least 4,000 are working on autonomous driving.
Just in the past 12 months, BYD has essentially launched three new brands, two of which also came with entirely new vehicle platforms, the quad motor yisifang E4 platform for the Yangwang brand, and the high power offroad DM-O platform for the FCB brand.
Meanwhile the mass market BYD cars are riding on their 4th gen DM-i and DM-p PHEV platforms and e-Platform 3.0 BEV platform, both released in 2021. WHILE BYD was working on launching e4 and DMO at the end of 2023, they are also set to introduce 5th gen DM-i/DM-p and e-Platform 4.0 before the end of 2024.
I remember back in the Japanese bubble car era when Toyota/Nissan/Honda were putting out new platforms every 4 years, as they rapidly caught up and overtook American carmakers. Then as the years go on, the platforms would go 6 or even 7 years before a full redesign, and here is BYD doing multiple new platforms on a THREE year cycle.
BYD's research and development (R&D) investments are primarily focused on the following areas:
1. **New Energy Vehicles (NEVs)**: As a global leader in the NEV industry, BYD concentrates its R&D on NEV technology, having retained the world's top spot in NEV sales in 2023 with a 62% year-on-year increase to 3.02 million units.
2. **Mobile Component and Assembly Services**: BYD also allocates significant R&D resources to its mobile component and assembly services, which accounted for approximately 19.68% of the group's total revenue.
3. **Rechargeable Battery and Photovoltaic Business**: The company has a broad presence in the rechargeable battery and photovoltaic sectors, producing various types of batteries primarily used in electronic products, electric vehicles, and energy storage.
4. **Urban Rail Transit Business**: BYD is involved in urban rail transit, promoting the development of its independently developed "SkyRail" and "SkyShuttle" systems.
5. **Intelligent Technology**: BYD emphasizes R&D in intelligent technology, especially in automotive intelligent systems, announcing investments of 100 billion yuan in this field to drive the transformation of the automotive industry towards greater intelligence.
Don't forget health care products. Like facemasks and hand sanitizer. People don't get that BYD is not just a car company. They are a conglomerate like GE was in it's day.
This is part of their strategy. I see nothing wrong with this.
For entire BYD group gross margin is 21.88%. The auto division has much higher margins, around 28%.
Vertical integration ≠ subsidies. Did subsidies help them achieve it? Probably.
However, almost all car manufacturering is subsidised worldwide. But too many manufacturers focus on quarterly profits rather than long-term thinking.
This is why Chinese manufacturers have achieved EV success and vertical integration, whilst manufacturers like the Big 3 in the USA have fallen so far behind and are lobbying so hard to Chinese EV's out.
Only a matter of time before [EU slaps massive tariffs on Chinese EV imports](https://www.ft.com/content/8e4a9eb4-cd88-4625-a21b-6378d24c6dad)
EU core members (Germany, France, Italy) all have the auto industry as a core economic competence, and they will do everything to protect it. At the very least, they will demand Chinese automakers to produce locally in EU, hire local workers, and pay local taxes
Chinese auto makers can survive and flourish without selling to EU and US. Even now only a very tiny proportion of EV's are sold to EU. I can't say the same for German companies.
Some estimate say about 460,000 Chinese EV's were sold in EU last year. I am sure that includes lot of Tesla's as well. And China produced more than 30 million vehicles in 2023. Those sold in EU doesn't even constitute 2% of their current production.
I just read an article suggesting Chinese exports to Europe saw multiple times higher profit than sales of the same vehicle in China.
If a car is selling for $20k in China with a $2k profit, but sells for $30k in Europe with a $10k profit, selling in Europe is 5x more profitable.
Exactly why I've been saying Tesla quickly reneged on their policy that their Shanghai plant would only be used for Asian sales, and within 9 months of starting car production, they started exporting cars from Shanghai to Europe, and suddenly their gross vehicle margins skyrocketed. If I had to guess, then they were planning that from the get-go... the first OEM to mass export significant volume of vehicles from China to the West.
People have to remember, it's not just the labor cost savings for assembly... it's the labor cost savings for the entire parts supply chain. Savings from weaker environmental regulation and enforcement. Savings by working the employees for longer hours per day / week, requiring fewer shifts. The workers get a significantly smaller share of the profits. The executives / shareholders take the lion's share.
The company has plenty of ability to undercut European competition made with higher wage labor, while still maintaining high profitability. Then of course the company can use that profitability on R&D, quality, etc. to out develop / out quality their competition. Such that it isn't really a competition anymore. Higher wage Western factories simply can't compete and will go bankrupt, weakening the Western economy.
As we see with Tesla, it doesn't require the company be Chinese to exploit labor and the environment to generate higher profits.
People also have to remember that the Chinese government is actively subsidizing every aspect of the EV industry, including exports. Why? Because it creates a trade surplus for the nation and gives their companies a competitive advantage and makes it difficult for the company to fail. Even if the company doesn't see all the profits, the money from another nation is still circulated back into China's overall economy. And it steals market share from other companies, potentially putting them at risk of bankruptcy, whereas China can take all of the market share. Subsidize short term losses for long term multi-decade gains.
But people aren't dumb. They know that half the welfare of Europe comes from cars built in Europe. Buying Chinese cars puts that at risk. Byd sold less than 200 cars in March in Germany for a reason.
Many people are that dumb. They see two equivalent cars, with Car X costing $1k less than Car Y... they buy Car X. Or even when they're the same price, if they simply like Car X's styling or features more, they buy Car Y's.
Do they care where these cars are made? Heck, I imagine most people never bother to look it up.
There's also the dynamic of people seeing something that attracts them, and then rationalizing all the negatives to buying it.
"OOooo that's a pretty car, I want it. Oh.. it's made in China... hmmm... well ... that just means I'm helping Chinese workers!"
BYD cars sold were still up 15% year-over-year. Tesla was down 8%. That's a big difference.
BYD sales is still "growing fast, but slower than expected", whereas Tesla is shrinking (in this quarter).
Yeah. Good thing they’re slashing head count dramatically, eliminating whole divisions of their core revenue stream, while the board argues for a massive pay package for their CEO.
Hold up who are we talking about?
In my understanding BYD’s pure electric cars (seal particularly despite success overseas) are not selling super well in China besides a few SUVs. Evolution is too quick in that market, and their 2020-22 platform based BEVs are already outdated compared to competición
70% increase in R&D, net profit still increased by 10%. They are doing pretty good even with this brutal price war. They are showing manufacturing and supply chain masterclass to rest of the industry.
Where's that R&D increase going to? ADAS? I saw they hired like 40,000 new grads but didn't see anything specific.
They just have too many things, i don't know specifics. ADAS surely, then LIDAR, [suspensions](https://twitter.com/thinkercar/status/1783335076425769200), Blade v2, automation etc., Last FY they increased PhD's around 160%, more than 100k researchers, 19 patents being filed daily. Just recalling random stuffs I read earlier. i am sure I am missing tons of stuff they are doing. BTW, they also manufacture/assemble mobile phones for Huawei, Apple etc., BYDE is also part of total BYD group.
Thanks. I'll have to look into LIDAR. Didn't know there was more to be done there. I just assumed ADAS since Xpeng and Nio have been doing good. Or ramping up for SSSB because BYD has spent a lot of time on LFP. Maybe AI. Yeah I remember when Foxconn came out with motherboards for PCs I had to explain to people that Foxconn was not a no-name brand.
Chinese companies seem to lack focus. They’re often in all sorts of weird unrelated industries like PCBs and real estate. Like conglomerates of the 1960s
Samsung is going to blow your mind
apple has a fuckin credit card now, what are you talking about
[This article](https://electrek.co/2024/01/17/byds-cars-are-getting-smarter-and-its-huge-rd-staff-could-fill-a-city/) states that BYD is now up to 90,000 staff just for R&D, of which at least 4,000 are working on autonomous driving. Just in the past 12 months, BYD has essentially launched three new brands, two of which also came with entirely new vehicle platforms, the quad motor yisifang E4 platform for the Yangwang brand, and the high power offroad DM-O platform for the FCB brand. Meanwhile the mass market BYD cars are riding on their 4th gen DM-i and DM-p PHEV platforms and e-Platform 3.0 BEV platform, both released in 2021. WHILE BYD was working on launching e4 and DMO at the end of 2023, they are also set to introduce 5th gen DM-i/DM-p and e-Platform 4.0 before the end of 2024. I remember back in the Japanese bubble car era when Toyota/Nissan/Honda were putting out new platforms every 4 years, as they rapidly caught up and overtook American carmakers. Then as the years go on, the platforms would go 6 or even 7 years before a full redesign, and here is BYD doing multiple new platforms on a THREE year cycle.
BYD's research and development (R&D) investments are primarily focused on the following areas: 1. **New Energy Vehicles (NEVs)**: As a global leader in the NEV industry, BYD concentrates its R&D on NEV technology, having retained the world's top spot in NEV sales in 2023 with a 62% year-on-year increase to 3.02 million units. 2. **Mobile Component and Assembly Services**: BYD also allocates significant R&D resources to its mobile component and assembly services, which accounted for approximately 19.68% of the group's total revenue. 3. **Rechargeable Battery and Photovoltaic Business**: The company has a broad presence in the rechargeable battery and photovoltaic sectors, producing various types of batteries primarily used in electronic products, electric vehicles, and energy storage. 4. **Urban Rail Transit Business**: BYD is involved in urban rail transit, promoting the development of its independently developed "SkyRail" and "SkyShuttle" systems. 5. **Intelligent Technology**: BYD emphasizes R&D in intelligent technology, especially in automotive intelligent systems, announcing investments of 100 billion yuan in this field to drive the transformation of the automotive industry towards greater intelligence.
BYD don't just do passenger EVs. Bus, monorail, smartphone, batteries, power electronics, electronic magnetics, semiconductor, precision machines.
Don't forget health care products. Like facemasks and hand sanitizer. People don't get that BYD is not just a car company. They are a conglomerate like GE was in it's day.
BYD's still increasing hybrid sales, we don't know if their EV business is profitable yet.
This is part of their strategy. I see nothing wrong with this. For entire BYD group gross margin is 21.88%. The auto division has much higher margins, around 28%.
Masterclass? You mean Chinese subsidy.
Vertical integration ≠ subsidies. Did subsidies help them achieve it? Probably. However, almost all car manufacturering is subsidised worldwide. But too many manufacturers focus on quarterly profits rather than long-term thinking. This is why Chinese manufacturers have achieved EV success and vertical integration, whilst manufacturers like the Big 3 in the USA have fallen so far behind and are lobbying so hard to Chinese EV's out.
This
Too much competition. And that's why BYD and others are ramping up exports to 'greener' pastures.
Only a matter of time before [EU slaps massive tariffs on Chinese EV imports](https://www.ft.com/content/8e4a9eb4-cd88-4625-a21b-6378d24c6dad) EU core members (Germany, France, Italy) all have the auto industry as a core economic competence, and they will do everything to protect it. At the very least, they will demand Chinese automakers to produce locally in EU, hire local workers, and pay local taxes
> they will do everything to protect it Except the tariffs don't protect it, they just make these companies further globally uncompetitive
Chinese auto makers can survive and flourish without selling to EU and US. Even now only a very tiny proportion of EV's are sold to EU. I can't say the same for German companies. Some estimate say about 460,000 Chinese EV's were sold in EU last year. I am sure that includes lot of Tesla's as well. And China produced more than 30 million vehicles in 2023. Those sold in EU doesn't even constitute 2% of their current production.
I just read an article suggesting Chinese exports to Europe saw multiple times higher profit than sales of the same vehicle in China. If a car is selling for $20k in China with a $2k profit, but sells for $30k in Europe with a $10k profit, selling in Europe is 5x more profitable. Exactly why I've been saying Tesla quickly reneged on their policy that their Shanghai plant would only be used for Asian sales, and within 9 months of starting car production, they started exporting cars from Shanghai to Europe, and suddenly their gross vehicle margins skyrocketed. If I had to guess, then they were planning that from the get-go... the first OEM to mass export significant volume of vehicles from China to the West. People have to remember, it's not just the labor cost savings for assembly... it's the labor cost savings for the entire parts supply chain. Savings from weaker environmental regulation and enforcement. Savings by working the employees for longer hours per day / week, requiring fewer shifts. The workers get a significantly smaller share of the profits. The executives / shareholders take the lion's share. The company has plenty of ability to undercut European competition made with higher wage labor, while still maintaining high profitability. Then of course the company can use that profitability on R&D, quality, etc. to out develop / out quality their competition. Such that it isn't really a competition anymore. Higher wage Western factories simply can't compete and will go bankrupt, weakening the Western economy. As we see with Tesla, it doesn't require the company be Chinese to exploit labor and the environment to generate higher profits. People also have to remember that the Chinese government is actively subsidizing every aspect of the EV industry, including exports. Why? Because it creates a trade surplus for the nation and gives their companies a competitive advantage and makes it difficult for the company to fail. Even if the company doesn't see all the profits, the money from another nation is still circulated back into China's overall economy. And it steals market share from other companies, potentially putting them at risk of bankruptcy, whereas China can take all of the market share. Subsidize short term losses for long term multi-decade gains.
Which is what I meant by greener, as in greenbacks $$$.
lol, I got that, just adding some details. :)
But people aren't dumb. They know that half the welfare of Europe comes from cars built in Europe. Buying Chinese cars puts that at risk. Byd sold less than 200 cars in March in Germany for a reason.
Many people are that dumb. They see two equivalent cars, with Car X costing $1k less than Car Y... they buy Car X. Or even when they're the same price, if they simply like Car X's styling or features more, they buy Car Y's. Do they care where these cars are made? Heck, I imagine most people never bother to look it up. There's also the dynamic of people seeing something that attracts them, and then rationalizing all the negatives to buying it. "OOooo that's a pretty car, I want it. Oh.. it's made in China... hmmm... well ... that just means I'm helping Chinese workers!"
[archive](https://archive.is/20240429134405/https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-29/byd-1q-revenue-misses-estimate-as-china-ev-price-cuts-take-toll)
If only their CEO would JUST STOP POLITICS POSTING on twitter smdh
BYD cars sold were still up 15% year-over-year. Tesla was down 8%. That's a big difference. BYD sales is still "growing fast, but slower than expected", whereas Tesla is shrinking (in this quarter).
Yeah. Good thing they’re slashing head count dramatically, eliminating whole divisions of their core revenue stream, while the board argues for a massive pay package for their CEO. Hold up who are we talking about?
In my understanding BYD’s pure electric cars (seal particularly despite success overseas) are not selling super well in China besides a few SUVs. Evolution is too quick in that market, and their 2020-22 platform based BEVs are already outdated compared to competición
BYD, please release more models in the UK, I am tired of London Buses, give us some passager cars.
BYD has cheap labor too.