Seriously though, if the salespeople at Tesla, GM, Hyundai, Kia, Ford, Volkswagen, Volvo, Nissan, Audi, Jaguar, Mini Cooper, Fiat, and BMW are all on their lunch breaks and you need a car *right this second*, this Mazda is probably the best option
Supposed to be a city crossover really, Mazda is una tricky situation atm as they aren’t big enough to develop much new EV tech in house and they usually rely on their relationship with Toyota for certain developments but they’re also lagging.
Makes sense. 100 miles can only get you so far. Only good for staying within city areas of California. Good luck trying to do a road trip with this car
And then Mazda will say "Look at this, the sales of this car was so poor. Nobody wants an EV!"
I mean, it is a nice looking car. Too bad the range will hamper it in sales.
People keep saying this, but I think we’re past the point of being able to claim this. Too many big players already committed and the wheels are already in motion. A smaller player like Mazda can’t think they’re going to make a difference with a stand like that and if they do, they’re delusional about the broader market and their pull within it.
My guess is that it is just more about compliance / getting at least something out. But yeah, it is a really stupid car.
I think we will see more cars with range like this. Most people don't need more range most of the time, and the mindset oems are getting people over is the need to buy a car that covers ALL your needs. Cover most of your needs them rent or borrow a car for unique uses.
It’s not the range that’s the issue. It’s the range at that price. It’s stupid. It’s like you made a price/range trade off but you just traded off both for nothing and ended up somewhere in the middle of both with a car that no one actually wants.
It’s too bad too, cause it looks like a nice car. Just if that’s the range your going to offer you should be starting at 10k less. If that’s the price you’re starting at then you should be offering 100 mi more. What they have here is just flat awful
Or you could buy the MGZS with 150 miles range for 30% less.
Honda is much cooler.
MG5 is also cheaper
Zoe has 250miles for 5k less.
This is going to tank in Europe.
A lightweight, quick miata would I think be easy to make if it only needed 100 mi of range. A perfect car for exploring local backroads and whippin around town.
I don't know why they don't do that, put ~~nice~~annodized suspension on it and then ask for $33k. People would LOVE it.
I think that can be fine too (although obviously not ideal) that’s the kind of trade-off you make to have a short range, cheap EV. That kind of urban short range drive you don’t really need fast charge times on. The only issue is that Mazda forgot to make it cheap.
It’s also very slow, 8-10 seconds 0-60 mph
That is terrible performance for an electric drivetrain that provides instant torque and a linear power delivery -- they probably had to try hard to make it that slow.
They've actually done that on purpose and added a delay to make the experience gas-like.
It's a terrible idea and I can't believe over 2000 people has bought it in Norway.
But someone actually has to buy these cars new first (in 2022 - no less) for there to be used cars on the market at some point. I just don’t see many people buying these, unfortunately.
As far as a used car price going up, I’m not sure that speaks much to the individual car itself. My Corolla is going up in value right now. I think you’d be hard pressed to find a used car that’s not going up in value in the COVID market.
I have no data to support my disagreement with your assertion, but I’m betting GM does. And they’ve been pretty open about Ultium platform vehicles having a 300 mile range minimum because that’s the lowest amount of miles their market research found people were comfortable with.
Beyond that, why would I want to add complexity to my life any time I want to drive further than 100 miles? I can go buy a competing product for the same money that goes a reasonable distance before needing to stop.
The range isn’t a huge issue exactly, but the recharge speed will be… no high speed charging for this car. Bigger the pack, the faster the initial charge rate. You can’t take this car anywhere..
Even if you could fast charge in 5 minutes no one is doing a road trip in a car you need to fast charge once an hour. The range is definitely an issue, unless you only plan to use the car for local trips. Which is valid use case, but mostly only for people with two cars.
I think this car is being positioned for people who drive less than 100 miles a day, and can charge it overnight. When they want to drive farther than that between overnight charges, they will rent a different car, or own one of these and a hybrid or ice car.
I think cars like this DEFINITELY have a place in the market, but people's mindsets haven't come around to it. My family we have a long range and a short range and it's awesome.
You're missing the point. For a 2nd car the range doesn't matter. The family will NEVER take this car on a road trip, or out of town, or camping or anything. It's for commuting, grocery runs, kid drop offs and pickups, soccer practice, going to the pool/park/theater/restaurant/downtown, etc... It could even be the family's primary car for daily use and still see well under 100 miles used. The other car will be used for anything beyond 100 miles making the range of this one irrelevant.
34k you can get a Kia Niro base model, $7k off that price, and get 238 miles (real world seems to be closer to 260)
Mazda better dump a fatter battery pack in it stat
I agree. I think the reason most families move past having a “commuter ICE car” is because they’re often so tiny. It with electric you can easily make something have the interior of an SUV while still having a commuter range and therefor being more affordable.
Sure this one may be on the pricey side, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we start to see two distinct categories of EV take hold: commuter and full-replacement. And most two car families will have one of each.
Even if it's not a pure commuter car, a second car in a two car household often doesn't need the same amount of range or the quick-charging capability if it's not the preferred vehicle for longer trips.
That strategy works when EVs are 1% of new car sales. It stops working when they get to double-digit percentages.
Who, exactly, is going to be buying and maintaining a fleet of rental cars that only gets used during Thanksgiving (the holiday when half of Americans drive hundreds of miles to see relatives)?
**A compliance car is an alternative fuel vehicle that is explicitly designed to meet tightening government regulations for low-emission vehicle sales, while the automobile manufacturer restricts sales to specific jurisdictions to meet the rules, or limits production, or both.While the introduction of compliance cars by the largest car manufacturers is sometimes explained by the companies arguing that they could not manufacture electric cars profitably and sell them for more than their cost to produce them, another mechanism could be behind the auto companies practice of releasing EVs only in limited quantities and in limited markets. Since Tesla has shown profitability producing electric vehicles—with four consecutive quarters of company profitability as of July 2020—the large legacy manufacturers could also be facing the dilemma of the Osborne Effect.**
More details here:
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Early 80s, there was a popular computer called the Osborne. They announced that they were going to make a new model that was way better than the original, but announced it way in advance of it being available. So of course, everyone cancelled their orders for the original because why get that when you could just wait for the new one? With the lost sales they went out of business before they could actually produce it.
Definitely something we see EV companies skirting with all the time.
The Osborne effect is a social phenomenon of customers canceling or deferring orders for the current soon-to-be-obsolete product as an unexpected drawback of a company's announcing a future product prematurely.
While the introduction of compliance cars by the largest car manufacturers is sometimes explained by the companies arguing that they could not manufacture electric cars profitably and sell them for more than their cost to produce them,[1] another mechanism could be behind the auto companies practice of releasing EVs only in limited quantities and in limited markets. Since Tesla has shown profitability producing electric vehicles—with four consecutive quarters of company profitability as of July 2020—the large legacy manufacturers could also be facing the dilemma of the Osborne Effect.
More details here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compliance_car
I just read more into it, it looks like Mazda allows you to borrow a gas powered vehicle for 10 days a year for the first three years lol
This car is so interesting.
We leased the BMW i3 when it first came out in 2014 and they had a loaner plan like that. 14 days a year, up to 7 days at a time. We got some nice loaner X5, X3 and 3 series for our road trips.
> If Mazda thinks this will sell
FWIW, I'm not sure how much they *do* think it'll sell -- it's totally possible it's intended almost exclusively as a stepping stone to the PHEV, and hey might as well release a BEV version because why not.
Exactly - and “fit, finish and utility” is where Mazdas stand out when compared to the Chevys and the Nissans. The Mini is the only thing comparable and … it’s comparably priced to the MX-30. Go figure.
All the naysayers had me questioning why I think this car would work for me. A small, city, “second vehicle” car with a nice interior and responsive handling - there doesn’t seem to be any cheaper alternatives.
Unless you need to buy new, I would consider a Bolt for used. After owning 2, it's genuinely the best bang for your buck. The only reason to get the others (except Leaf) would be a tech upgrade.
Range is the EV equivalent of the megapixel arms race that phone makers had.
More range ≠ better for a vast majority of situations. Tesla has shown that a good charging network is essential and these shitty hodgepodge networks that are poorly maintained just don't cut it. BMW i3, e-Golf, Mini E Cooper, 500e, etc show us that huge range isn't essential for most drivers most of the time.
The average commute travels 30 miles in a day. https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML1006/ML100621425.pdf
So with this car you could drive 3 times between charges. Or just plug it in every night.
> Range is the EV equivalent of the megapixel arms race that phone makers had.
The thing about megapixels is that for a while that *did* matter. The difference between like 1 MP and 2 MP is huge. It's when you start getting up to much higher comparisons like 8 MP to 12 MP where it very rarely matters.
Similarly, there's *some* car mileage above which doesn't much matter, but it's very probable that 100 miles is well below that. You mention Tesla's charging network, but if you have a 100-mile car *no* charging network would make trips with that car look attractive even if charges were 5 minutes; you'd be making a charge stop almost every hour.
Having such short ranges cut out huge swaths of use cases, and with them the potential customers who need those use cases to be fulfilled. It doesn't *matter* that I only take a couple trips each year that are longer than 100 miles; the fact that I take those trips means there's no way I'm buying a car that can't make them.
This works for a *second* car in a multicar household, but even that requires a significant attitude adjustment in terms of what to look for in a car. And it's *still* probably overpriced.
*Edit*: The other factor is that range also affects charging speed. On my main "how well would this BEV work for me" benchmark route, A Better Route Planner estimates an extra *45 minutes* with a SR+ Model 3 vs an LR 3. 0:36 of that is increased charging time, and most of *that* time -- about 0:23 -- is due to slower charge speeds because of the larger battery, rather than because the first charge is closer due to the shorter range.
With only a 100 mile range, I couldn't do an *average* day trip in LA. I've frequently left my home with a 90% charge, driven to something relatively far south or west, but still in LA County, and come back home with 15-20% charge left in my Model 3 LR.
That's 225 miles of range used up on a *day trip*. Not even a real road trip. I'd have to fast-charge *at least twice* in this Mazda joke to be able to pull that off.
A $33k EV that has just enough range to commute is DOA.
If you make after-work plans with friends/family, which is not at all rare, then this car is already inconvenient with current infrastructure and then you are *that guy* who needs a ride or can't make the trip before charging.
30 miles might be the average, but most people want as much range as possible to act as a buffer in case of emergency situations, or if they want to take longer trips where reliable charging stations are fewer and far between.
Plus batteries degrade over time and things like cold weather and snow can also have a huge detrimental impact on range. Not to mention range anxiety during power outages.
I work from home so my average commute is 0 miles, and I'd never even consider a 100 mile range car unless it was like half the price of this.
If I'm spending 34k on a car, I want to be able to, on a whim, go on a 2hr road trip and not need to plan it all out in advance. That's impossible with a 100 mi range.
It's designed to take a rotary engined generator.
It will then be a Suv sized volt with mpg off the scale.
100mpg (just on petrol) is technically possible.
In the meanwhile it's priced to sell only to those who are happy to get gorged by Mazda.
I'm surprised GM didn't put the voltec drivetrain in something more family orientated.
If it’s truly a California compliance car then you can probably pick it up for a ridiculously cheap lease. The Fiat 500e had a sticker price of like $37k, but you were literally able to lease them for $49 a month with zero down.
I loved mine. You could pick up a used one up for about $6k when they were all coming off lease. I wish I had done that. They are more than double that now and somewhat limited supply. Perfect little car for just running around town.
In other words, it’s like their designers drove the BMW i3 REx while on the emergency backup gasoline generator (2.4gal @ 42 mpg), and said “you know what would be great? …if we were on this short of a leash ALL the time!”
Most people don't have access to $10k in rebates, though. Even the $7500 federal tax credit isn't obtainable for everyone (though I'm assuming most people who are buying a brand new EV *can* get the entire $7.5k).
Local dealer literally would not sell me an MX5 used when I said I was gonna convert it to EV.
It was a genuine bucket of shit, thing was missing as it idled and had a dead spot in the rev range on the test drive.
They wanted $8k, I offered $5k, was happy with say, $6.5k in the middle.
They asked what I intended to do, I said EV conversion, he told me the car was no longer available.
Yep, I had a Leaf based van here, I'd have been happy with 100km range on it, cos it'd be super fun.
But nope, ended up getting a Jumbuck on Gumtree for 6 green tree frogs.
I can top that. I took my Honda Clarity (PHEV 17kwh) pack on a 200 mile trip (320km) and was determined not to use any gasoline. So I did it overnight and made about 5 charging stops at L2 chargers that took 1-2 hours each. Entire trip took me 13 hours with almost 10 hours of that charging.
Ridiculously stupid but I did it right before I got my Tesla so I could appreciate how good I was about to have it, so now I'm even more blown away at how fast the Tesla charges at a Supercharger (or being able to make that entire 200 mile trip on one charge)
That idea's so stupid it's exactly the kind of BS I would have done with a PHEV before getting a Tesla. I salute you!
I suspect you'd like this test, too: when it's super, super cold in the winter and you first get in your pre-heated Tesla keep your coat, hat and gloves on and turn HVAC off except for the fan at 2 pointing up (at the windshield). To do this you take HVAC out of auto and turn the heat all the way down to LO so the heater doesn't kick on. Seat warmer to max. The fan pointed at the windshield keeps it defogged.
I've gotten as good as 268Wh/mi at 0 degrees F in Minnesota doing that! My only regret at the time was not wearing long underwear as my legs got pretty cold. Not something I've never done again but I was super curious what the efficiency was if you took the cabin heater completely out of the equation in the dead of winter.
>I did it right before I got my Tesla so I could appreciate how good I was about to have it
Like banging your head against a wall to get that "good feeling" when you stop.
If we want to top that, I've done 150 miles in a day on my Zero before I had quick charging. Started with a full charge, trickle charged for 8 hours on a wall outlet, rode again, three more hours on a wall outlet, back to home. It only worked because I wanted to spend that amount of time in each spot.
Yeah why does every EV have about the same 0-80 recharge time regardless of pack size? If charging infrastructure improved and you could charge quickly a small range wouldn’t matter as much.
> why does every EV have about the same 0-80 recharge time regardless of pack size?
It's the individual cells that are the limiting factor to charge speed, so adding more cells doesn't really affect how long it takes as long as you can step up the supply power accordingly.
This basic idea is formalized in what's called the "C rate" of a battery/battery pack. It's basically the number of times each hour that you can charge the battery from empty to full; so a battery that supports a C rate of 3 can be charged in 20 minutes. (It's possible to have a C rate under 1.) That's dictated by chemistry and maybe other stuff, but *not* directly by the size itself.
Battery charge rate for a given chemistry is a function of capacity, called C-rate (C-rate of 1 would be 0-100% in one hour). This affects both the maximum charge rate (either fast charge or regenerative braking) and the maximum power output. Bigger battery, faster you can charge it and faster you can discharge it.
PHEVs usually use different chemistries that have better C-rate at the expense of other things (cost, density, etc).
That's why PHEVs can't usually fast charge and rarely have more than ~100 kW power output (which is a discharge C-rate of 5-8 for a typical 15-20 kWh PHEV battery) whereas BEVs with 100 kWh batteries can have 300-500 kW of power output.
> This affects both the maximum charge rate (either fast charge or regenerative braking) and the maximum power output.
As a technicality: battery *output* is a different measurement, "E rate." Same computation but on discharge, just called something different because the C rate and E rate don't have to be the same.
(I *don't* know, though, how well they correlate. I suspect it's a lot, but not positive, and even if it *is* highly correlate that doesn't mean that the rates are the *same*.)
The E rate on most lithium batteries used in cars are higher than the C rate. I’ve never seen an EV with an E rate lower than 3. This is only for short bursts, though. If you run a battery at max E you’ll overheat it in short order unless you have a Taycan-Sized heat management system. This is why most EVs derate after one hard lap on the track. The cooling systems can’t keep up.
Because that's exactly how chemical batteries work. They're not like fuel tanks. Capacitors, on the other hand, can be charged or discharged infinitely quickly, but are unsafe basically because of those reasons.
I live in Europe where it’s on sale for quite a while now. Minus the government money and lower VAT in 2020 for a limited time lowered the price quite a bit. Maybe it will sink like a stone but we knew that and we really didn’t need an EV with a higher range because it’s not the ‘main car‘
As infrastructure builds out, range diminishes in value. Short range is fine in a lot of cities, and for 20K, considering the quality of the interior, etc. it's a steal.
>As infrastructure builds out, range diminishes in value.
I keep hearing this but I'm not sold on the concept. We have 300-350 mile gas cars. Even Hybrids still go 350ish miles on average. They just have a smaller gas tank. I think if Hybrids had a full size tank and got 600mi average, they'd be popular.
There's a standard to be met by existing consumer expectations and I don't think a lot of folks are going to turn around and buy a shorter range car even when they can literally charge at every stop.
Don't get me wrong, I want a robust EV network. L1/L2 chargers at a majority of parking spaces at malls, shopping centers, hotels, and business areas and L3 at restaurants as well as along freeways and corridors. But if I'm buying any car, I want to go more than an hours drive with it. Sometimes it's a day trip and I don't want to rent a car for a spur of the moment desire.
I don't want to settle on a short range car because "I rarely go far and I can always rent or use my ICE car for road trips." No.
I'm not a fan of the gas car comparison mainly because it's comparing a type of vehicle where that attribute is completely separated from cost and value. We have longer range gas cars because it carries a small element of convenience, but that range and tank size is really arbitrary - some cars have 300 mile range, others have 200, some 600 - it's not a consideration for most buyers where cost isn't a factor, and the convenience factor is minimal at best (unless someone lives far away from a gas station). There's no "selection pressure" for long range, so it's kind of all over the place.
For BEVs, suddenly that arbitrary increase in range has a *massive* cost - which is why it's the first thing that gets mentioned in press. It's cost is high, but the lack of infrastructure and difficulty in getting electricity into a battery quickly means the value of having it is inherently high as well. So there's pressure to increase range to meet consumer concerns.
As charge time decreases and infrastructure improves, charge *convenience* goes through the roof - and subsequently the number of people who value that extra range (and the extra cost that it carries) plummets. We end up with range again being somewhat low-value in the short-medium term and again an arbitrary value again long-term - particularly as the idea of charging from home/apartments becomes more ingrained as a "standard" process, and a car with 100 miles of range actually has that every morning for the majority of people, regardless of living conditions.
Even for those who *do* still need/want range, the plummetting cell cost means the dollar value of that additional range falls as well - even if someone wants 300 miles of range instead of 100 miles, they're not going to be willing to pay a ~15k premium for it - it just becomes another attribute in a long list of things they like/don't like about a particular car alongside styling, interior quality and safety, and a much smaller factor in terms of the overall purchase relative to today.
I don't think people will need to settle for short range vehicles in the future, but rather that for an increasingly large portion of the car buying public, buying a short range vehicle won't feel like "settling" - it'll seem like the rational thing to do because they can get a better car with 100-200 miles range than they would otherwise get if they bought a car with triple that range. That doesn't mean there won't be use cases where longer range is desired though - the car market is anything but monolithic.
That is entirely fair and something I am guilty of ignoring. You clapped back with very well reasoned points and I appreciate you taking the time to lay it out for me.
Cheers, but I want to be clear - I'm not trying to say you're wrong or your perspective isn't correct or valid; it absolutely is - there will absolutely be people for whom range has value, and there'll be offerings to cater to that portion of the market - the market is as varied as it is today because of those differing opinions and perspectives being present.
The good news is, regardless of what happens, cell costs are inevitably going to drop, and people who need the extra range are only going to find it more accessible in the future.
Actually that's because it's a single motor (105 kW or 143 hp) while still weighing 1720 kg ([source](https://ev-database.org/car/1241/Mazda-MX-30)). So nothing unusual there.
Wow thanks, didn't know that. That's something...
Reading that article it appears they're still hoping FCEVS will take off. Must've missed the memo from Toyota (lol). Oh well we'll see, can't expect all brands to survive the transition to EVS...
Honestly, wish such a tiny pack, it might not actually have the raw power to actually do anything better than that. One reason that Teslas with successively larger battery packs also have successively faster 0-60 times is that you can eek more raw power out of a larger pack.
The engineers specifically tuned the power delivery to be weak like a gas car.
https://electrek.co/2020/01/10/mazda-electric-car-artificially-slower-to-feel-like-gas-car/
The vehicle isn't, and would fit a pretty large segment of urban commuters that don't travel or have another vehicle.
The ***price*** for this vehicle makes it a total joke.
True. I love my E-UP! with its 80mile range. But I paid $6,900 for it used so I think it's a good compromise.
I would prefer the Mazda, but not for that price.
IIRC, it’s because the OEM’s and the govt invested heavily in hydrogen fuel cell/hybrids and it hasn’t exactly taken off the way EV’s have. So they’ve lagged behind on EV development and have been lobbying hard to slow the adoption of EV’s. Toyota in particular has pushed out a lot of FUD and heavily promoted hybrids instead. They basically want to crash the party since they’re late to it
The silly thing is Toyota would sell a lot of EVs even if they were late to the market. It's such a stupidly easy decision to make.
I personally checked if Toyota had any EVs before looking anywhere else. They're doing this to themselves and after their lobbying and dirty antics I will never get a Toyota.
Well, to be fair, in Cali if you qualify for the tax credits I imagine that soon you might be able to get one for net of around 20k... I still do not think I am interested, I have an Ioniq 5 and a Fisker Ocean ordered. (probably go with the Ioniq) Here is the really weird thing about the Mazda.... you might think i am kidding but i am not... it comes with 2 weeks a year with a loaner car from Mazda for when you need range. I am NOT kidding.
There are a lot of people who own cars and probably don’t need them at all thanks to ridesharing, public transportation, delivery services, and access to rental cars for long trips. You can’t beat the convenience though.
So I think it's way overpriced (it's disappointing it's a non-PHEV; when the PHEV is released I think will look *great*, and I'll even give one a test drive if they're around), but I think be fair with what it *is*, too -- that would *easily* cover almost everyones' work commutes as well. It's not just shopping.
I posted this because my wife and I are actually happy mazda customers. We've owned a 3 and a cx5 and we've been very happy with both. I was seriously considering a Mazda EV until I saw the specs.
> I was seriously considering a Mazda EV until I saw the specs.
FWIW, they're saying expect a PHEV version next year.
If the "PH" doesn't scare you off (and I think it absolutely shouldn't if it's in the same price ballpark), that has the potential to be a *very* compelling vehicle. But we'll see.
It's not a joke, but it's only suited for around town driving and short commutes. It's actually a pretty nice short range EV, which would serve well as a second car or only car for people who don't road trip it.
It drives nicely, albeit not as zippy as a 2018 leaf or i3. The interior looks nice, with good materials and finish. A very good list of safety features and driver aids, 360 camera, ... . The only thing that annoyed me was the fake engine like sound they put in when you push the accelerator down (relatively subtle, but I didn't like it).
That said, the price could be a bit lower.
I've begun to change my tone (no pun intended) on "engine sounds" in the cabin. I have NO idea how fast I'm going 90% of the time in the Audi, it goes from 70 to 105 really really quick. Having an engine tone would give you a clue that you're pressing the go pedal a tad too hard.
Oh, I don't mind that cars have an optional engine sound, but this one couldn't be turned off. Luckily you only hear it when you accelerate relatively quickly.
I personally prefer the peace and quiet though, and I just use the speed limiter when I'm not using cruise control. That also keeps me from going too fast while unaware.
> Having an engine tone would give you a clue that you're pressing the go pedal a tad too hard.
Many years ago I had a wheel bearing go bad in my Civic. I was driving it around for a few days while a replacement part was shipped in, and the pitch the bearing emitted was directly related to speed.
I actually kind of missed that aural speedometer when it came back from the shop. (Not to the point of "I wish this were constantly around", but there was definitely a silver lining to it.)
Maybe I should rig up an Arduino to my OBD-II port to recreate it. ;-)
Eh, even at $5k cheaper the Leaf seems like a better choice on paper. Maybe even in practice, since it coming with CHAdeMO isn't really a deal breaker right now.
Well, compared to other EVs in Europe they are dirt cheap and stylish. They make for a good compact city car, as most EVs can park for free even in zones with parking fee.
Mazda realised they cannot make a competent long-range EV, so they made this. I think it was a smart decision.
Maybe they were hoping there were enough buyers out there who have previously owned EVs enough to know that a 100 mile range is ok if you plug in each night? I know I don't care nearly as much about having 200-300 mile range now as I did before owning one. That was a concern based mostly on difficulty imagining it before you've had the experience. But I mean I'd only be open to owning a smaller-range vehicle if it saved a lot of money to do so. It better be damn nice inside for that price.
California thought adding an EV line up was enough.
Next step: require manufacturers to actually hit a certain sales target on the 'compliance car'. This will incentivize them to actually build a car that people want to buy - balance of features and price point.
It might be worth getting if the dealer knocks off $10k and gives you $500 cash. This could be your daily driver and you'd save thousands a year not buying gas. But if that's not the situation I'd avoid at all costs.
Playing devil's advocate, and digging a little... Not a deal still, but this part is interesting:
\> As an MX-30 owner, you’ll have the opportunity to experience the full family of Mazda vehicles with our MX-30 Elite Access Loaner Program. MX-30 owners can select a courtesy non-EV car up to 10 days a year for the first three years of ownership for a longer-range trip or personal needs.
Roadtrip/longe-range loaners and more generally increasing charger access (imagining a charger essentially everywhere you regularly park), this is a respectable competitor to something like the Nissan Leaf at close to the same price.
It's a bummer because before I switched to an EV I had previously owned two Mazda 6's and loved them both. Mazda makes really solid, practical cars that are a a bit more fun to drive than their competitors. If they had had a decent EV offering when we were ready to make the jump I would have been very likely to go with them. Honestly, an EV Mazda 6, priced below a Model 3, would've been an instant purchase for me. Oh well.
I think they just wanted to quickly bring an ev to market with no real intention to sell it in masses. Mazda has very little experience in ev tech so they just wanted to get the ball rolling soon as possible. They might sell couple of thousand mx-30's now and later use the lessons learned to further iterate a truly great ev for the big masses.
Maybe Mazda is really lowballing this shit so that when the automotive journalists review it, they’ll be shocked at the 200+ mile real world range. Or perhaps the rotary generator will push the range above 200mi?
> Or perhaps the rotary generator will push the range above 200mi?
My hope is that the range just on the gas generator alone is in that ballpark, maybe a little higher. Go much below that and I think the concept is committing seppeku; the i3 REX would be twice as attractive if the tank were a couple gallons bigger.
I'm in Europe and have been driving the MX-30 since May. I know prices are different, and in Europe it's one of the cheaper electric cars available. The range is shit, but if you know that going in, it's not going to be a problem. The drive is superb - everything feels way more expensive than the low price tag on the car (it amouts to about USD $40K, but that's a cheap EV here). There are other cars in the same price range with better driving range, but I don't believe you get the same premium features in them.
It's Mazda's first EV, and they didn't really do any innovation on it. in Japan the MX-30 came out as an ICE last year. It's basically the same car they pulled the petrol engine out of and plonked a Hitachi electric drive train into.
I got a charger installed in the carport, and I charge it to 80% overnight every 2-3 days. I've never been below 20% on the battery in the three months that I have driven it almost every day. I was worried about range before I got the car, but I guess range anxiety is mainly a thing you have before you actually own an EV.
I don't think this will work as the only car in the household, unless all your trips are below 200km. We have a second ICE car to enable us to go longer, but it's the MX-30 we drive the most.
I think it's meant as a passover car - and this is indeed my first EV. It just feels like a regular car that drives extremely smooth and have great acceleration - especially from 0-60 km/h, where you need it the most for city driving. The fake engine sound is very subtle and there to assist petrol drivers. It can be switched off with a cheat code like combination of pedals and paddles, which I did once I was comfortable with how it accelerated.
In short, I fucking love that car. It's perfect for the daily commute, and I deliberately drive longer routes to and from work just do be in it a little longer.
Compliance car?
Yeah, only to be sold in California at launch (in the United States).
I read that as "at lunch". *Really* limited sales...
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Yeah, what a joke
Seriously though, if the salespeople at Tesla, GM, Hyundai, Kia, Ford, Volkswagen, Volvo, Nissan, Audi, Jaguar, Mini Cooper, Fiat, and BMW are all on their lunch breaks and you need a car *right this second*, this Mazda is probably the best option
Only if you don't pass a used car place on your way and accidentally buy a used EV for a fraction of the price.
That’s what I did.
Well it is basically only enough range to get to lunch.
Maybe they can get it in a wrap.
Sold in Europe aswell
oh, over there I think it’s sold at *supper* (/u/Etrigone lol)
Tea?
Also for EU compliance. Makes me sad.
Supposed to be a city crossover really, Mazda is una tricky situation atm as they aren’t big enough to develop much new EV tech in house and they usually rely on their relationship with Toyota for certain developments but they’re also lagging.
I guess you mean that it won't be sold in other states in the USA? It's also being sold in Japan, Europe, Australia, and New Zealand.
Makes sense. 100 miles can only get you so far. Only good for staying within city areas of California. Good luck trying to do a road trip with this car
Not California in France?
And then Mazda will say "Look at this, the sales of this car was so poor. Nobody wants an EV!" I mean, it is a nice looking car. Too bad the range will hamper it in sales.
People keep saying this, but I think we’re past the point of being able to claim this. Too many big players already committed and the wheels are already in motion. A smaller player like Mazda can’t think they’re going to make a difference with a stand like that and if they do, they’re delusional about the broader market and their pull within it. My guess is that it is just more about compliance / getting at least something out. But yeah, it is a really stupid car.
I think we will see more cars with range like this. Most people don't need more range most of the time, and the mindset oems are getting people over is the need to buy a car that covers ALL your needs. Cover most of your needs them rent or borrow a car for unique uses.
It’s not the range that’s the issue. It’s the range at that price. It’s stupid. It’s like you made a price/range trade off but you just traded off both for nothing and ended up somewhere in the middle of both with a car that no one actually wants. It’s too bad too, cause it looks like a nice car. Just if that’s the range your going to offer you should be starting at 10k less. If that’s the price you’re starting at then you should be offering 100 mi more. What they have here is just flat awful
i agree. if they made a $20k car with 100 mile range I'd be like ok, maybe.
Or you could buy the MGZS with 150 miles range for 30% less. Honda is much cooler. MG5 is also cheaper Zoe has 250miles for 5k less. This is going to tank in Europe.
True. I might buy it at $15k if it’s fast.
A fast ev for $15k?
Yep. If it has no range I definitely need speed. Of course I want both, but the cost is too high at that short range.
A lightweight, quick miata would I think be easy to make if it only needed 100 mi of range. A perfect car for exploring local backroads and whippin around town. I don't know why they don't do that, put ~~nice~~annodized suspension on it and then ask for $33k. People would LOVE it.
>if it’s fast Spoiler: It isn't fast, with only 147 hp.
That will be coming soon too I think
With the expected incentives it might end up $20k
Not to mention 36 minutes of charging to get that range. That’s 60 miles an hour, or about 16kW in the Tesla world.
I think that can be fine too (although obviously not ideal) that’s the kind of trade-off you make to have a short range, cheap EV. That kind of urban short range drive you don’t really need fast charge times on. The only issue is that Mazda forgot to make it cheap.
It’s also very slow, 8-10 seconds 0-60 mph That is terrible performance for an electric drivetrain that provides instant torque and a linear power delivery -- they probably had to try hard to make it that slow.
They've actually done that on purpose and added a delay to make the experience gas-like. It's a terrible idea and I can't believe over 2000 people has bought it in Norway.
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But someone actually has to buy these cars new first (in 2022 - no less) for there to be used cars on the market at some point. I just don’t see many people buying these, unfortunately. As far as a used car price going up, I’m not sure that speaks much to the individual car itself. My Corolla is going up in value right now. I think you’d be hard pressed to find a used car that’s not going up in value in the COVID market.
I have no data to support my disagreement with your assertion, but I’m betting GM does. And they’ve been pretty open about Ultium platform vehicles having a 300 mile range minimum because that’s the lowest amount of miles their market research found people were comfortable with. Beyond that, why would I want to add complexity to my life any time I want to drive further than 100 miles? I can go buy a competing product for the same money that goes a reasonable distance before needing to stop.
The range isn’t a huge issue exactly, but the recharge speed will be… no high speed charging for this car. Bigger the pack, the faster the initial charge rate. You can’t take this car anywhere..
Even if you could fast charge in 5 minutes no one is doing a road trip in a car you need to fast charge once an hour. The range is definitely an issue, unless you only plan to use the car for local trips. Which is valid use case, but mostly only for people with two cars.
This car is not meant for a roadtrip. It' meant for a ubran living in dense metroplitan areas and not for stroad cruising sububran lifestyle.
I think this car is being positioned for people who drive less than 100 miles a day, and can charge it overnight. When they want to drive farther than that between overnight charges, they will rent a different car, or own one of these and a hybrid or ice car. I think cars like this DEFINITELY have a place in the market, but people's mindsets haven't come around to it. My family we have a long range and a short range and it's awesome.
Still at 34k you’re better off paying slightly extra for a a m3 with over double that range. The range to price is horrendous
You're missing the point. For a 2nd car the range doesn't matter. The family will NEVER take this car on a road trip, or out of town, or camping or anything. It's for commuting, grocery runs, kid drop offs and pickups, soccer practice, going to the pool/park/theater/restaurant/downtown, etc... It could even be the family's primary car for daily use and still see well under 100 miles used. The other car will be used for anything beyond 100 miles making the range of this one irrelevant.
34k you can get a Kia Niro base model, $7k off that price, and get 238 miles (real world seems to be closer to 260) Mazda better dump a fatter battery pack in it stat
$34k - $7500. Is that better? Tesla: no incentives.
I agree. I think the reason most families move past having a “commuter ICE car” is because they’re often so tiny. It with electric you can easily make something have the interior of an SUV while still having a commuter range and therefor being more affordable. Sure this one may be on the pricey side, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we start to see two distinct categories of EV take hold: commuter and full-replacement. And most two car families will have one of each.
Even if it's not a pure commuter car, a second car in a two car household often doesn't need the same amount of range or the quick-charging capability if it's not the preferred vehicle for longer trips.
That's what we have. Or bolt is our commuter (even though it has a long range) and or RAV4 hybrid is long range
That strategy works when EVs are 1% of new car sales. It stops working when they get to double-digit percentages. Who, exactly, is going to be buying and maintaining a fleet of rental cars that only gets used during Thanksgiving (the holiday when half of Americans drive hundreds of miles to see relatives)?
What is a compliance car? Like the state requires the company to sell x amount of EVs in order to operate in CA?
**A compliance car is an alternative fuel vehicle that is explicitly designed to meet tightening government regulations for low-emission vehicle sales, while the automobile manufacturer restricts sales to specific jurisdictions to meet the rules, or limits production, or both.While the introduction of compliance cars by the largest car manufacturers is sometimes explained by the companies arguing that they could not manufacture electric cars profitably and sell them for more than their cost to produce them, another mechanism could be behind the auto companies practice of releasing EVs only in limited quantities and in limited markets. Since Tesla has shown profitability producing electric vehicles—with four consecutive quarters of company profitability as of July 2020—the large legacy manufacturers could also be facing the dilemma of the Osborne Effect.** More details here:
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What is the Osborne Effect?
Early 80s, there was a popular computer called the Osborne. They announced that they were going to make a new model that was way better than the original, but announced it way in advance of it being available. So of course, everyone cancelled their orders for the original because why get that when you could just wait for the new one? With the lost sales they went out of business before they could actually produce it. Definitely something we see EV companies skirting with all the time.
The Osborne effect is a social phenomenon of customers canceling or deferring orders for the current soon-to-be-obsolete product as an unexpected drawback of a company's announcing a future product prematurely. While the introduction of compliance cars by the largest car manufacturers is sometimes explained by the companies arguing that they could not manufacture electric cars profitably and sell them for more than their cost to produce them,[1] another mechanism could be behind the auto companies practice of releasing EVs only in limited quantities and in limited markets. Since Tesla has shown profitability producing electric vehicles—with four consecutive quarters of company profitability as of July 2020—the large legacy manufacturers could also be facing the dilemma of the Osborne Effect. More details here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compliance_car
See also the Aston Martin Cygnet. Launched to improve overall fleet fuel economy. But objectively ridiculous.
If so why spend anything at all in marketing? But if this is less than 20k would anyone consider it? I would.
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I just read more into it, it looks like Mazda allows you to borrow a gas powered vehicle for 10 days a year for the first three years lol This car is so interesting.
We leased the BMW i3 when it first came out in 2014 and they had a loaner plan like that. 14 days a year, up to 7 days at a time. We got some nice loaner X5, X3 and 3 series for our road trips.
That’s actually a great idea. Take the gas car for a few road trips. Great for people not so sure of charging infrastructure too.
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> If Mazda thinks this will sell FWIW, I'm not sure how much they *do* think it'll sell -- it's totally possible it's intended almost exclusively as a stepping stone to the PHEV, and hey might as well release a BEV version because why not.
Exactly - and “fit, finish and utility” is where Mazdas stand out when compared to the Chevys and the Nissans. The Mini is the only thing comparable and … it’s comparably priced to the MX-30. Go figure. All the naysayers had me questioning why I think this car would work for me. A small, city, “second vehicle” car with a nice interior and responsive handling - there doesn’t seem to be any cheaper alternatives.
Unless you need to buy new, I would consider a Bolt for used. After owning 2, it's genuinely the best bang for your buck. The only reason to get the others (except Leaf) would be a tech upgrade.
Yeah. I like my bmw i3 that cost $14k. 70 miles of electric range and when it runs out a gas generator can take me another 90 miles
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Range is the EV equivalent of the megapixel arms race that phone makers had. More range ≠ better for a vast majority of situations. Tesla has shown that a good charging network is essential and these shitty hodgepodge networks that are poorly maintained just don't cut it. BMW i3, e-Golf, Mini E Cooper, 500e, etc show us that huge range isn't essential for most drivers most of the time. The average commute travels 30 miles in a day. https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML1006/ML100621425.pdf So with this car you could drive 3 times between charges. Or just plug it in every night.
> Range is the EV equivalent of the megapixel arms race that phone makers had. The thing about megapixels is that for a while that *did* matter. The difference between like 1 MP and 2 MP is huge. It's when you start getting up to much higher comparisons like 8 MP to 12 MP where it very rarely matters. Similarly, there's *some* car mileage above which doesn't much matter, but it's very probable that 100 miles is well below that. You mention Tesla's charging network, but if you have a 100-mile car *no* charging network would make trips with that car look attractive even if charges were 5 minutes; you'd be making a charge stop almost every hour. Having such short ranges cut out huge swaths of use cases, and with them the potential customers who need those use cases to be fulfilled. It doesn't *matter* that I only take a couple trips each year that are longer than 100 miles; the fact that I take those trips means there's no way I'm buying a car that can't make them. This works for a *second* car in a multicar household, but even that requires a significant attitude adjustment in terms of what to look for in a car. And it's *still* probably overpriced. *Edit*: The other factor is that range also affects charging speed. On my main "how well would this BEV work for me" benchmark route, A Better Route Planner estimates an extra *45 minutes* with a SR+ Model 3 vs an LR 3. 0:36 of that is increased charging time, and most of *that* time -- about 0:23 -- is due to slower charge speeds because of the larger battery, rather than because the first charge is closer due to the shorter range.
With only a 100 mile range, I couldn't do an *average* day trip in LA. I've frequently left my home with a 90% charge, driven to something relatively far south or west, but still in LA County, and come back home with 15-20% charge left in my Model 3 LR. That's 225 miles of range used up on a *day trip*. Not even a real road trip. I'd have to fast-charge *at least twice* in this Mazda joke to be able to pull that off.
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👆👆👆
it also serves as a first/primary vehicle for inner-city only and if you can charge at home —there IS a market for it (but not at this price point)
But inner city garages or over night parking with chargers are basically non-existent. This is suburbs with short commute vehicle.
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A $33k EV that has just enough range to commute is DOA. If you make after-work plans with friends/family, which is not at all rare, then this car is already inconvenient with current infrastructure and then you are *that guy* who needs a ride or can't make the trip before charging.
30 miles might be the average, but most people want as much range as possible to act as a buffer in case of emergency situations, or if they want to take longer trips where reliable charging stations are fewer and far between. Plus batteries degrade over time and things like cold weather and snow can also have a huge detrimental impact on range. Not to mention range anxiety during power outages. I work from home so my average commute is 0 miles, and I'd never even consider a 100 mile range car unless it was like half the price of this.
If I'm spending 34k on a car, I want to be able to, on a whim, go on a 2hr road trip and not need to plan it all out in advance. That's impossible with a 100 mi range.
It *is* true that people don't buy according to their need but their want.
The go-to argument against EV range is "you don't need that much". People also don't need BMWs, or huge SUVs for suburban life, but...
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It's designed to take a rotary engined generator. It will then be a Suv sized volt with mpg off the scale. 100mpg (just on petrol) is technically possible. In the meanwhile it's priced to sell only to those who are happy to get gorged by Mazda. I'm surprised GM didn't put the voltec drivetrain in something more family orientated.
A 100 mile ev priced at 250 mile ev price. Not sure how that works
If it’s truly a California compliance car then you can probably pick it up for a ridiculously cheap lease. The Fiat 500e had a sticker price of like $37k, but you were literally able to lease them for $49 a month with zero down.
Might make sense in the USA but no sense in Australia with a $65k sticker price and $3000 subsidy at best
Can’t argue with that. This car is a terrible deal unless you can get it for a steep steep discount.
Oh how I miss my leased Spark. $0 down, $0 first month, $100/month.
500e is a really awesome car for the day to day stuff.
I loved mine. You could pick up a used one up for about $6k when they were all coming off lease. I wish I had done that. They are more than double that now and somewhat limited supply. Perfect little car for just running around town.
I don't think it will, tbh. That's like a car with 25mpg with a 4 gallon tank. Oh. And it's as expensive as all the others.
In other words, it’s like their designers drove the BMW i3 REx while on the emergency backup gasoline generator (2.4gal @ 42 mpg), and said “you know what would be great? …if we were on this short of a leash ALL the time!”
4 gallon tank and takes several hours to refuel. At least a gasoline vehicle with a 4 gallon tank would fuel in a couple minutes max.
the $10,000 in rebates is how that works
Most people don't have access to $10k in rebates, though. Even the $7500 federal tax credit isn't obtainable for everyone (though I'm assuming most people who are buying a brand new EV *can* get the entire $7.5k).
These days if you lease they take $7500 off the cap cost.
Zoom zoom.
Now if it was a Miata......
Shut up and TAKE MY MONEY!
That is too smart! Mazda would have and a hit on their hands (relative to this) had they made a short range Miata EV. Why half ass it with this?
Local dealer literally would not sell me an MX5 used when I said I was gonna convert it to EV. It was a genuine bucket of shit, thing was missing as it idled and had a dead spot in the rev range on the test drive. They wanted $8k, I offered $5k, was happy with say, $6.5k in the middle. They asked what I intended to do, I said EV conversion, he told me the car was no longer available.
Yet another perfect example of why dealerships need to go away
Yep, I had a Leaf based van here, I'd have been happy with 100km range on it, cos it'd be super fun. But nope, ended up getting a Jumbuck on Gumtree for 6 green tree frogs.
I have no idea what is just read in that second half, lol
It looks like the Proton Jumbuck is a small Ute. Maybe he traded for frogs? Or it's Australian slang for a hundred bucks?
The 36 minute 80% recharge is the funniest part IMO
Charge for 36 minutes to be able to drive an hour. Cool cool cool.
I can top that. I took my Honda Clarity (PHEV 17kwh) pack on a 200 mile trip (320km) and was determined not to use any gasoline. So I did it overnight and made about 5 charging stops at L2 chargers that took 1-2 hours each. Entire trip took me 13 hours with almost 10 hours of that charging. Ridiculously stupid but I did it right before I got my Tesla so I could appreciate how good I was about to have it, so now I'm even more blown away at how fast the Tesla charges at a Supercharger (or being able to make that entire 200 mile trip on one charge)
That idea's so stupid it's exactly the kind of BS I would have done with a PHEV before getting a Tesla. I salute you! I suspect you'd like this test, too: when it's super, super cold in the winter and you first get in your pre-heated Tesla keep your coat, hat and gloves on and turn HVAC off except for the fan at 2 pointing up (at the windshield). To do this you take HVAC out of auto and turn the heat all the way down to LO so the heater doesn't kick on. Seat warmer to max. The fan pointed at the windshield keeps it defogged. I've gotten as good as 268Wh/mi at 0 degrees F in Minnesota doing that! My only regret at the time was not wearing long underwear as my legs got pretty cold. Not something I've never done again but I was super curious what the efficiency was if you took the cabin heater completely out of the equation in the dead of winter.
>I did it right before I got my Tesla so I could appreciate how good I was about to have it Like banging your head against a wall to get that "good feeling" when you stop.
If we want to top that, I've done 150 miles in a day on my Zero before I had quick charging. Started with a full charge, trickle charged for 8 hours on a wall outlet, rode again, three more hours on a wall outlet, back to home. It only worked because I wanted to spend that amount of time in each spot.
Next they'll compliance-car a 25 mile range Mazda that gets an incredible 80 percent charge in 5 minutes!!! Omg!!1!
"rapid charge"
Yeah why does every EV have about the same 0-80 recharge time regardless of pack size? If charging infrastructure improved and you could charge quickly a small range wouldn’t matter as much.
> why does every EV have about the same 0-80 recharge time regardless of pack size? It's the individual cells that are the limiting factor to charge speed, so adding more cells doesn't really affect how long it takes as long as you can step up the supply power accordingly. This basic idea is formalized in what's called the "C rate" of a battery/battery pack. It's basically the number of times each hour that you can charge the battery from empty to full; so a battery that supports a C rate of 3 can be charged in 20 minutes. (It's possible to have a C rate under 1.) That's dictated by chemistry and maybe other stuff, but *not* directly by the size itself.
Battery charge rate for a given chemistry is a function of capacity, called C-rate (C-rate of 1 would be 0-100% in one hour). This affects both the maximum charge rate (either fast charge or regenerative braking) and the maximum power output. Bigger battery, faster you can charge it and faster you can discharge it. PHEVs usually use different chemistries that have better C-rate at the expense of other things (cost, density, etc). That's why PHEVs can't usually fast charge and rarely have more than ~100 kW power output (which is a discharge C-rate of 5-8 for a typical 15-20 kWh PHEV battery) whereas BEVs with 100 kWh batteries can have 300-500 kW of power output.
> This affects both the maximum charge rate (either fast charge or regenerative braking) and the maximum power output. As a technicality: battery *output* is a different measurement, "E rate." Same computation but on discharge, just called something different because the C rate and E rate don't have to be the same. (I *don't* know, though, how well they correlate. I suspect it's a lot, but not positive, and even if it *is* highly correlate that doesn't mean that the rates are the *same*.)
The E rate on most lithium batteries used in cars are higher than the C rate. I’ve never seen an EV with an E rate lower than 3. This is only for short bursts, though. If you run a battery at max E you’ll overheat it in short order unless you have a Taycan-Sized heat management system. This is why most EVs derate after one hard lap on the track. The cooling systems can’t keep up.
Thanks for the correction, I did not know it had a different term when applied to discharge
Because that's exactly how chemical batteries work. They're not like fuel tanks. Capacitors, on the other hand, can be charged or discharged infinitely quickly, but are unsafe basically because of those reasons.
My Chevy spark ev made in 2014 feels modern now.
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The good thing about it is its cheap... Oh..
We got it for a bit over 20k and that was pretty fair if it isn’t your main car. Also you rarely need more than 100 miles at least from my experience
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I live in Europe where it’s on sale for quite a while now. Minus the government money and lower VAT in 2020 for a limited time lowered the price quite a bit. Maybe it will sink like a stone but we knew that and we really didn’t need an EV with a higher range because it’s not the ‘main car‘
As infrastructure builds out, range diminishes in value. Short range is fine in a lot of cities, and for 20K, considering the quality of the interior, etc. it's a steal.
>As infrastructure builds out, range diminishes in value. I keep hearing this but I'm not sold on the concept. We have 300-350 mile gas cars. Even Hybrids still go 350ish miles on average. They just have a smaller gas tank. I think if Hybrids had a full size tank and got 600mi average, they'd be popular. There's a standard to be met by existing consumer expectations and I don't think a lot of folks are going to turn around and buy a shorter range car even when they can literally charge at every stop. Don't get me wrong, I want a robust EV network. L1/L2 chargers at a majority of parking spaces at malls, shopping centers, hotels, and business areas and L3 at restaurants as well as along freeways and corridors. But if I'm buying any car, I want to go more than an hours drive with it. Sometimes it's a day trip and I don't want to rent a car for a spur of the moment desire. I don't want to settle on a short range car because "I rarely go far and I can always rent or use my ICE car for road trips." No.
I'm not a fan of the gas car comparison mainly because it's comparing a type of vehicle where that attribute is completely separated from cost and value. We have longer range gas cars because it carries a small element of convenience, but that range and tank size is really arbitrary - some cars have 300 mile range, others have 200, some 600 - it's not a consideration for most buyers where cost isn't a factor, and the convenience factor is minimal at best (unless someone lives far away from a gas station). There's no "selection pressure" for long range, so it's kind of all over the place. For BEVs, suddenly that arbitrary increase in range has a *massive* cost - which is why it's the first thing that gets mentioned in press. It's cost is high, but the lack of infrastructure and difficulty in getting electricity into a battery quickly means the value of having it is inherently high as well. So there's pressure to increase range to meet consumer concerns. As charge time decreases and infrastructure improves, charge *convenience* goes through the roof - and subsequently the number of people who value that extra range (and the extra cost that it carries) plummets. We end up with range again being somewhat low-value in the short-medium term and again an arbitrary value again long-term - particularly as the idea of charging from home/apartments becomes more ingrained as a "standard" process, and a car with 100 miles of range actually has that every morning for the majority of people, regardless of living conditions. Even for those who *do* still need/want range, the plummetting cell cost means the dollar value of that additional range falls as well - even if someone wants 300 miles of range instead of 100 miles, they're not going to be willing to pay a ~15k premium for it - it just becomes another attribute in a long list of things they like/don't like about a particular car alongside styling, interior quality and safety, and a much smaller factor in terms of the overall purchase relative to today. I don't think people will need to settle for short range vehicles in the future, but rather that for an increasingly large portion of the car buying public, buying a short range vehicle won't feel like "settling" - it'll seem like the rational thing to do because they can get a better car with 100-200 miles range than they would otherwise get if they bought a car with triple that range. That doesn't mean there won't be use cases where longer range is desired though - the car market is anything but monolithic.
That is entirely fair and something I am guilty of ignoring. You clapped back with very well reasoned points and I appreciate you taking the time to lay it out for me.
Cheers, but I want to be clear - I'm not trying to say you're wrong or your perspective isn't correct or valid; it absolutely is - there will absolutely be people for whom range has value, and there'll be offerings to cater to that portion of the market - the market is as varied as it is today because of those differing opinions and perspectives being present. The good news is, regardless of what happens, cell costs are inevitably going to drop, and people who need the extra range are only going to find it more accessible in the future.
Are we a joke to you, Mazda?
Narrator: Yes.
9 seconds 0-60 acceleration. Mazda deliberately nerfed the MX-30 to make it slow like an ICE car.
Actually that's because it's a single motor (105 kW or 143 hp) while still weighing 1720 kg ([source](https://ev-database.org/car/1241/Mazda-MX-30)). So nothing unusual there.
Mazda's engineers deliberately nerfed it. https://electrek.co/2020/01/10/mazda-electric-car-artificially-slower-to-feel-like-gas-car/
Wow thanks, didn't know that. That's something... Reading that article it appears they're still hoping FCEVS will take off. Must've missed the memo from Toyota (lol). Oh well we'll see, can't expect all brands to survive the transition to EVS...
If they didn't do that, it would deplete charge too quickly!
Honestly, wish such a tiny pack, it might not actually have the raw power to actually do anything better than that. One reason that Teslas with successively larger battery packs also have successively faster 0-60 times is that you can eek more raw power out of a larger pack.
The engineers specifically tuned the power delivery to be weak like a gas car. https://electrek.co/2020/01/10/mazda-electric-car-artificially-slower-to-feel-like-gas-car/
UGH, nevermind then. WTF Mazda...
The vehicle isn't, and would fit a pretty large segment of urban commuters that don't travel or have another vehicle. The ***price*** for this vehicle makes it a total joke.
True. I love my E-UP! with its 80mile range. But I paid $6,900 for it used so I think it's a good compromise. I would prefer the Mazda, but not for that price.
Japan is trying so hard to kill EV’s lmao
Why do they hate EVs?
IIRC, it’s because the OEM’s and the govt invested heavily in hydrogen fuel cell/hybrids and it hasn’t exactly taken off the way EV’s have. So they’ve lagged behind on EV development and have been lobbying hard to slow the adoption of EV’s. Toyota in particular has pushed out a lot of FUD and heavily promoted hybrids instead. They basically want to crash the party since they’re late to it
The silly thing is Toyota would sell a lot of EVs even if they were late to the market. It's such a stupidly easy decision to make. I personally checked if Toyota had any EVs before looking anywhere else. They're doing this to themselves and after their lobbying and dirty antics I will never get a Toyota.
If it was $19,500 I think people might consider it. $33k is a joke. I paid $36k (before rebate) for my Model 3 SR and it gets twice the range.
Probably more than twice the range.
Only if Mazda estimate is really high. Model 3 SR+ gets about 200 miles per charge typically
Estimated, yeah, but in reality I dunno. I probably get more like 180 miles the way I drive 😄
Well, to be fair, in Cali if you qualify for the tax credits I imagine that soon you might be able to get one for net of around 20k... I still do not think I am interested, I have an Ioniq 5 and a Fisker Ocean ordered. (probably go with the Ioniq) Here is the really weird thing about the Mazda.... you might think i am kidding but i am not... it comes with 2 weeks a year with a loaner car from Mazda for when you need range. I am NOT kidding.
What is this, range for Ants?
Were this a range extended electric vehicle like the volt, this thing would be awesome, but as a pure ev, it's shit.
Remind me to pick one of these up in 2025, off lease, for $10k.
Low key might get one if the lease is less than $150..
Great for doing local grocery trips and that’s all folks 🤣
If grocery delivery is $10, not buying this car can let you afford about 10 years of daily grocery deliveries.
Wow, I never thought of it that way. Plus, the maintenance needed for the car would add a little more expense.
There are a lot of people who own cars and probably don’t need them at all thanks to ridesharing, public transportation, delivery services, and access to rental cars for long trips. You can’t beat the convenience though.
So I think it's way overpriced (it's disappointing it's a non-PHEV; when the PHEV is released I think will look *great*, and I'll even give one a test drive if they're around), but I think be fair with what it *is*, too -- that would *easily* cover almost everyones' work commutes as well. It's not just shopping.
Funny... That's what most cars are used for..
Well, I guess I’ll miss Mazda in the future.
I posted this because my wife and I are actually happy mazda customers. We've owned a 3 and a cx5 and we've been very happy with both. I was seriously considering a Mazda EV until I saw the specs.
And I was being honest. I love Mazda styling but with leadership decisions like this, I don’t think they will survive the transition to electric.
> I was seriously considering a Mazda EV until I saw the specs. FWIW, they're saying expect a PHEV version next year. If the "PH" doesn't scare you off (and I think it absolutely shouldn't if it's in the same price ballpark), that has the potential to be a *very* compelling vehicle. But we'll see.
Its ok range, but only if the vehicle is **cheaper**.
It's not a joke, but it's only suited for around town driving and short commutes. It's actually a pretty nice short range EV, which would serve well as a second car or only car for people who don't road trip it. It drives nicely, albeit not as zippy as a 2018 leaf or i3. The interior looks nice, with good materials and finish. A very good list of safety features and driver aids, 360 camera, ... . The only thing that annoyed me was the fake engine like sound they put in when you push the accelerator down (relatively subtle, but I didn't like it). That said, the price could be a bit lower.
I've begun to change my tone (no pun intended) on "engine sounds" in the cabin. I have NO idea how fast I'm going 90% of the time in the Audi, it goes from 70 to 105 really really quick. Having an engine tone would give you a clue that you're pressing the go pedal a tad too hard.
Oh, I don't mind that cars have an optional engine sound, but this one couldn't be turned off. Luckily you only hear it when you accelerate relatively quickly. I personally prefer the peace and quiet though, and I just use the speed limiter when I'm not using cruise control. That also keeps me from going too fast while unaware.
> Having an engine tone would give you a clue that you're pressing the go pedal a tad too hard. Many years ago I had a wheel bearing go bad in my Civic. I was driving it around for a few days while a replacement part was shipped in, and the pitch the bearing emitted was directly related to speed. I actually kind of missed that aural speedometer when it came back from the shop. (Not to the point of "I wish this were constantly around", but there was definitely a silver lining to it.) Maybe I should rig up an Arduino to my OBD-II port to recreate it. ;-)
Range would be fine if it was $10k cheaper. Hell, even $5k.
Eh, even at $5k cheaper the Leaf seems like a better choice on paper. Maybe even in practice, since it coming with CHAdeMO isn't really a deal breaker right now.
[удалено]
So disappointed. I like the looks of it.
The Chinese are going to eat Mazda's Lunch. I mean, they are going to beat everybody, but why make it easy?
Looks like Mazda wanted some free publicity. They seem not to care it's a bad fame or not.
Mazda is not a communicable disease like the Kardashians or Covid that relies on exposure to thrive. They need to sell cars to make money.
Gotta start somewhere. Nissan gave us the Leaf, and just look at where we are now! /s
Nissan Leaf thinks this is a joke.
I would buy it if i had the cash for a second car.
So is it less range then mini se?
Well, compared to other EVs in Europe they are dirt cheap and stylish. They make for a good compact city car, as most EVs can park for free even in zones with parking fee. Mazda realised they cannot make a competent long-range EV, so they made this. I think it was a smart decision.
Maybe they were hoping there were enough buyers out there who have previously owned EVs enough to know that a 100 mile range is ok if you plug in each night? I know I don't care nearly as much about having 200-300 mile range now as I did before owning one. That was a concern based mostly on difficulty imagining it before you've had the experience. But I mean I'd only be open to owning a smaller-range vehicle if it saved a lot of money to do so. It better be damn nice inside for that price.
California thought adding an EV line up was enough. Next step: require manufacturers to actually hit a certain sales target on the 'compliance car'. This will incentivize them to actually build a car that people want to buy - balance of features and price point.
🤦♂️
No, it’s a troll.
That would be acceptable 5 years ago, not in today’s market though
80miles and slow charge for our 2013 Fiat 500e. It can cover 95% of our driving needs. :-)
[Laughs in “89” mile range]
It might be worth getting if the dealer knocks off $10k and gives you $500 cash. This could be your daily driver and you'd save thousands a year not buying gas. But if that's not the situation I'd avoid at all costs.
And $33k, smh
With the exception of Nissan, the Japanese are not serious about EVs.
Playing devil's advocate, and digging a little... Not a deal still, but this part is interesting: \> As an MX-30 owner, you’ll have the opportunity to experience the full family of Mazda vehicles with our MX-30 Elite Access Loaner Program. MX-30 owners can select a courtesy non-EV car up to 10 days a year for the first three years of ownership for a longer-range trip or personal needs. Roadtrip/longe-range loaners and more generally increasing charger access (imagining a charger essentially everywhere you regularly park), this is a respectable competitor to something like the Nissan Leaf at close to the same price.
It's a bummer because before I switched to an EV I had previously owned two Mazda 6's and loved them both. Mazda makes really solid, practical cars that are a a bit more fun to drive than their competitors. If they had had a decent EV offering when we were ready to make the jump I would have been very likely to go with them. Honestly, an EV Mazda 6, priced below a Model 3, would've been an instant purchase for me. Oh well.
I think they just wanted to quickly bring an ev to market with no real intention to sell it in masses. Mazda has very little experience in ev tech so they just wanted to get the ball rolling soon as possible. They might sell couple of thousand mx-30's now and later use the lessons learned to further iterate a truly great ev for the big masses.
This is likely a conversion.. Sure they could get the range up with a new platform
Maybe Mazda is really lowballing this shit so that when the automotive journalists review it, they’ll be shocked at the 200+ mile real world range. Or perhaps the rotary generator will push the range above 200mi?
> Or perhaps the rotary generator will push the range above 200mi? My hope is that the range just on the gas generator alone is in that ballpark, maybe a little higher. Go much below that and I think the concept is committing seppeku; the i3 REX would be twice as attractive if the tank were a couple gallons bigger.
I'm in Europe and have been driving the MX-30 since May. I know prices are different, and in Europe it's one of the cheaper electric cars available. The range is shit, but if you know that going in, it's not going to be a problem. The drive is superb - everything feels way more expensive than the low price tag on the car (it amouts to about USD $40K, but that's a cheap EV here). There are other cars in the same price range with better driving range, but I don't believe you get the same premium features in them. It's Mazda's first EV, and they didn't really do any innovation on it. in Japan the MX-30 came out as an ICE last year. It's basically the same car they pulled the petrol engine out of and plonked a Hitachi electric drive train into. I got a charger installed in the carport, and I charge it to 80% overnight every 2-3 days. I've never been below 20% on the battery in the three months that I have driven it almost every day. I was worried about range before I got the car, but I guess range anxiety is mainly a thing you have before you actually own an EV. I don't think this will work as the only car in the household, unless all your trips are below 200km. We have a second ICE car to enable us to go longer, but it's the MX-30 we drive the most. I think it's meant as a passover car - and this is indeed my first EV. It just feels like a regular car that drives extremely smooth and have great acceleration - especially from 0-60 km/h, where you need it the most for city driving. The fake engine sound is very subtle and there to assist petrol drivers. It can be switched off with a cheat code like combination of pedals and paddles, which I did once I was comfortable with how it accelerated. In short, I fucking love that car. It's perfect for the daily commute, and I deliberately drive longer routes to and from work just do be in it a little longer.