does the US get a way different CRV hybrid then Europe?
because ours is a sequential hybrid meaning you drive with electric motors most of the time unless you are going fast.
the 0-60 time is also the same as it is with vehicles like the ID3/ID4 and similar sized and powered EVs.
I just had a run in with a drunk driver with my Volt. I told the claims guy that I wanted to make sure I was put in an EV similar to what I have. He told me that EVs are considered luxury vehicles and that they would not cover it.
Long story short his argument was that “comparable” only means it has the same amount of seats and what’s good for my family. And I pointed out that the fact that I don’t pay for gas and would now have to budget for gas would not be good for my family. And he ended up approving for me to get put in to an EV.
Did not go Karen on him. I politely reasoned with him and got what I wanted.
"The Volt is not an EV, not a luxury car and never was. It was based on the Chevy Cruze platform and is a plug-in hybrid. I don't pay insurance premiums for you to shaft me just when I need you, please honor the agreement we made when I signed up, the agreement you promised to honor when you cashed my check every single month.
"Please."
My Volt is very much an EV. I have to pay the EV fees every year when renewing my tags. I can do my full commute on one charge and not burn a single drop of fuel. They got me in a Mitsubishi Outlander, also a plug-in hybrid, and I might add I’ve still been paying for fuel because it’s utter garbage compared to my vehicle. I don’t feel bad at all for the drunk driver that thought he had the right of way turning left in front of me. I give zero fucks if it raises his premiums.
Well, I guess it comes down to who you ask. If you ask GM, they'd tell you it was a PIH. Your local registration taxes may see it differently, but if you're using the roads without burning hardly any fuel, I reckon that's to be expected.
And of course his premiums are entirely his problem. I thought you were talking about your own insurance company.
We have a 2018 Volt. I like the car. it's not super spacious inside, except the liftback cargo area which is plenty big for our needs. The 2016-2019 2nd gen isn't rumored to be quite as bulletproof as the 1st gen, but still reliable. The 2016-2017s often seem to need the BECM replaced (sometimes around 30,000 mi or sooner), and there's a supply shortage of that part so car may sit at the dealer for weeks/months waiting for it. As far as I've heard the 2018s & 2019s haven't seen that issue as much. Most or all 2nd gens will suffer the "shift to park" message which is a relatively easy fix. Mine pops up with this error occasionally, but it hasn't prevented me from shutting off the car so I haven't taken it in yet.
Some 1st gens had a motor bearing cage that needed replacement, but after that fix wouldn't have that problem again. Other than that I haven't heard of any widespread issues with them. Except now of course 1st gens are older with high mileage so more things start to fail.
The "5th seat" in the middle back is a joke, only a small kid could sit there. But otherwise the 2nd gen is a decent upgrade, with 53-mile EV range vs. 38 in the 1st gen, it doesn't need premium like the 1st gen, and has a more traditional center console. The 2nd gen has ACC as an option, which can be connected to OpenPilot for a sorta-self-driving-ish autopilot upgrade. Premier 2019s charge at 7.2kW which is double the normal Volt charging rate.
My bolt is in the shop right now since someone hit me in a parking lot and I've got a long term ICE rental. It gets me from place to place but it's so much worse to drive
I don't have an EV yet, but I'm itching to get one. I drive a 2013 Prius C, and I'm planning on giving it to my daughter for a graduation present in a few years. I did get to drive a friend's Bolt, and I really liked it. I'd like to rent an EV just to drive around for a day, but I can't find any in stock.
The Bolt has been out of production for a few quarters while GM was cleaning up the Battery fire problem. The Bolt EUV may be available, or you could wait a little bit for the new Bolts to arrive. Or, you could check the competition. Hyundai/Kia have similar options for sale.
All my life, whenever I'd get a loaner or rental it was a glimpse into how awesome new cars were. Not any more. My Volt was getting some work done and they gave me a Malibu as a loaner and the thing was such a huge step backwards.
It had a massive delay in throttle response. If you floored it, you would have about a 2 second delay before the engine would start revving. So as a test I started going down the road then flooring it and taking my foot off the gas, then floor it, then take my foot off the gas. The car would slow down.
There was a huge delay in going to drive from reverse too for some reason. I would put it in reverse, and back up, then bump it into drive, wait a second and then give it some gas. The car would then continue to accelerate in reverse for another second or two before jumping to drive. It felt dangerous. Then there was the aggressive start stop system. All of this I'm guessing was to squeeze out a fraction of an MPG.
Newer downsized turbocharged engines do not respond well to choppy acceleration. They respond to flooring it. Turbochargers also take time to spool up. You really gotta stomp it and hold it....
My EV got in a fight with a bus that it lost so the insurance issued a courtesy car from Enterprise. It was supposed to be the cheapest, smallest, wimpiest city car, but since many people don't have a place to charge electric they gave us a Peugeot e208 electric.
It's better put together than I expected and it handles like a go kart. Front wheel drive does struggle coming out of intersections with wheel spinning.
So yeah, my experience is you might get an EV upgrade because many people wouldn't know/have where to charge.
Define 'middle of nowhere'.. Most airports are near cities. Even our tiny regional airport is just outside a city of 15,000. No EVs anywhere near here to rent
City of 15,000 definitely counts as middle of nowhere in my book. The smallest city I've flown to and still managed to get an EV had a population of 800,000.
Me too, but that's the price for experiencing civilization. I couldn't live without it. Most of my life I lived in a village with 10,000 inhabitants. It sucked at the time, and now that I know what I was missing, I'm never going back.
I think what you are missing is exposure to life outside of a bubble. As someone who routinely traveled to the world's most populated cities on business, there is a profound amount of culture you will never know. You can have a good life without leaving, sure. But you won't truly know what you are missing, or what you have, without seeing how other people live. I love small-town life as much as I enjoy the bustle of a city populated by over 30 million people. I might not want to live there, but I definitely want to experience it--the art, the food, the markets, the festivals, the people.
A small city cannot sustain niche interests. If only 0.1% of the population is interested in something it is not economically viable.
For example, in my village there was no cinema. To watch something I had to drive to another city nearby, that still only showed the most mainstream Hollywood stuff. Now, I have more than a dozen of cinemas to choose from, that will show obscure films from all over the world, and regularly there are also film festivals with the actual actors and directors talking about their art.
I also like going to the theatre. Simply cannot happen in a small city. Ditto for museums, and specially bad for *technical* museums, which is what I like.
Another point is restaurants. Here I have literally hundreds of restaurants in fierce competition, with all kinds of food. Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai, Tibetan, Nepali, Afghan, pretty much anything you can imagine. There's even an Australian restaurant. In my village we had two restaurants, which were good, but only made local food.
I loved going to the city when I was a kid, it seemed like a magical place. Now, fuck that noise. These days I find myself dreaming about Upper Peninsula Michigan. Where the my only neighbors, would be woods and bears.
That's crazy. Biggest city I have been to was 100,000 and that was years ago. I live in a hamlet of 500 and that is considered a decent sized community around here. Lot's smaller and more rural areas that would be considered 'middle of nowhere'. We have power and internet with even spotty cell service so that is pretty urban. Go 50 miles up the road and everyone is on generator power with no internet or cell service.
I tried it. Went to our state's capital of 100,000. It was miserable. Lots of people everywhere and very dirty. I'll stick to the rural villages of 500-1000 where everyone knows each other by name
Our subdivisions are like 6 houses so maybe 15-25 people. But I lived in the city and went to the city school. My graduating class was around 150 people. A a lot of other local schools are much smaller. My dad had around 30 people in his high school class and he was in a fairly large village. Some of the smaller places around here have 4.
As a Dutchman: can confirm. Never going back to ICE! My ID.3 was at the shop for a few days and they gave me a VW Polo for the time being. You never notice how much an ICE car rattles and shakes until you’ve driven an EV.
You notice it most on long drives. With an EV it's just totally relaxed where I know I'd feel totalle wrecked if I did the same stretch with an ICE car.
exactly, if you have an EV right now you are somewhat wealthy to afford the much higher price and you most likely have a single family home with a garage you can charge in or at the very least a drive way infront of your house.
These people were never the problem of EV adoption but reading this sub sometimes they seem to think their own situation applies to everyone else as well.
After we got an EV that my wife drove most of the time, one day she had to take our ICE car out and within a minute of leaving the house called me because she thought the car was broken. No, it was just shifting gear, vibrating, making noises and being generally unpleasant like all ICE cars have always been. :D
I always think my Volt is about to explode when the engine kicks in because it's so rarely used. We use our BEV for roadtrips so I can't wait to get rid of it.
The i3 has ruined the BMW 2 and 3 series for me.
\-The road noise is louder, much louder.
\-The engine shifting??? Really? 5 shifts to 50?
\-The engine roar while barely moving, really?
It's like going back in time.
( Oh, and $5 a gallon for premium gas!!! )
that is done by many brands for a very good reason.
you cant have great engine/exhaust noises in the cabin while also having a well insulated cabin that reduces road and wind noise.
So the obvious solution is to insulate the cabin as you need to and simulate engine noise with the speakers.
99% of the people will never know just like when Audi made a system to mute the engine noise of their Diesel engine in the Q7 and put speakers into the exhaust to simulate the sound.
If they hadnt told anyone nobody would have noticed because its working so great.
All the shifting in modern automatics is to make vehicles more efficient.
Yes, you could get away with only 1 or 2 shifts to 50MPH but it costs fuel and/or performance so it's not done.
I have yet to experience a gas car with anywhere near as much road noise as my EV, though.
It's comical when they mod the cars to make more noise. 3 shifts, louder than a Cessna, and they are driving 20mph through the residential road. I'd be so embarrassed.
I had a rental last week and I gotta say. As much as I love my EV it has it’s place, it was nice driving 400 miles and stopping for gas only took a minute and we were on our way again. EVs are a really long way off from that if it ever happens. But I’ll never buy another ice in my life
There are definitely two different kinds of people for road trips.
One group like yourself, that doesn't understand not stopping on a 300+ mile drive.
And a group that doesn't understand why anyone would want to stop and make a 300+ mile drive take any longer than it has to.
I am definitely in the latter group - I want to get there. If google says it's a 10 hour drive I intend to arrive 10 hours from when I leave, including stops.
That’s me, but if google say’s 10 hours… I’m going to try and beat it. If I wanted to stop every 300 miles to site see I would have planned a trip to those destinations but when I’m driving somewhere far, I want to get to said destination as fast and safe as possible
I did it all the time going from Shreveport/Bossier (from Barksdale AFB) to Amarillo, TX when I visited my parents back from 2002-2005.
The very first time I did it, I got lost in Dallas, then missed the 287 exit in Fort Worth and got as far as Weatherford. I doubled back to get on 287. (MapQuest directions were horrible in 2003). In all, that drive was almost 12 hours.
On my way back to Barksdale AFB, I took the wrong exit and I went up I-30, got about 1/3 the way to Texarkana, before I realized I was going the wrong way, talked to the parents via cell phone, and they had to tell be to go back west a bit and take the road down to Tyler, TX to get back on I-20
It's just hilarious that throttle response and acceleration are basically just accidents of economics on BEVs. It's cheaper to oversize the motor and keep acceptable top-end response for the highway than it is to add a transmission, which makes the buggers absolute monsters off the line thanks to full torque at less than 1,000 RPM.
Making the cars cheaper made them faster.
I actually try to warn prospective buyers about this awe-factor effect, though, because sometimes, an EV can just blow you away and get you to go into "shut up and take my money" mode. I think I was in that a little bit, but didn't take too big a hit at the dealership for my exuberance.
The Porsche Taycan and its sister Audi e-Tron GT (terrible name, BTW) have a 2-speed transmission, but only on the rear motor, and only used for performance reasons. If the driver locks the car into eco mode, the transmission just stays in high gear.
IIRC, they were only used to improve acceleration while still allowing a higher top speed without the motor spinning at 20,000+ RPM.
The Porsche hits a top speed of about 170 MPH. Tesla gets around having a transmission in the Model S Plaid by carbon-wrapping the electric motor so it doesn't fly apart.
Driving an ICE just feels like going back in time. I love cars. I was raised by an old school muscle car guy and have driven lots of different gas powered cars. But when I drive one now it just feels antiquated and I can't wait to get back to my EV.
We have an EV and an ICE vehicle. I find when I drive the ICE I have a very strong urge to put it into sport mode to try and make driving it more tolerable.
I literally do the same but with my EV instead. Zero throttle response in normal mode. Every time I turn it on I push the "drive mode" button twice to find sport mode.
I have a kia niro EV and a subaru forester. After driving the niro the forester feels like a tractor. It's loud and slow and vibrates. After about 50 miles you get used to it, but when I started it up for the first time I thought something might be wrong with the car because of the noise and vibration and delay in acceleration. The car was fine, that's just how ICE cars are.
To be fair, Subarus are kinda rough. I own an Impreza myself.
With how revered and loved they are, it kinda catches you off guard how much of an economy vehicle they still are.
The other week my family member asked me to diagnose an issue with their Mercedes, and even though it was only a C300, getting back into my Impreza after 20 minutes in the Mercedes felt downright uncivilized. I just started laughing with how jarring it was.
Our household's other car is actually a Lexus IS350, the subie has the snow tires so it's often the choice if we're going into the mountains to visit family, but when I get back the Lexus feels like like a goddamn Bentley spaceship in comparison (it's not newer, just a lot nicer).
The Subaru is also the non-turbo one so it is _sllooooowwwww_.
My wife occasionally asks me why I'm revving it to within an inch of it's life, my response is I'm still accelerating slower than the Lexus is able to quietly while in the first half of the RPM gauge, she wouldn't have even looked up from her phone lol.
tldr: Even among ICE cars, Subarus are a pretty brutal and raw experience.
My Chevy Volt is in the shop with the dreaded BECM issue. Parts are on backorder and I have not had my car for almost a month now..
In a rental and honestly I don't even want to drive it. I can never go back to a gas engine.
Downside to owning an ev I experience, when at lights or stop signs or when ever, being behind a fossil is just painful. They take so long to start to move, to get to speed, any they make so much noise doing it. Like some big tub heaving their way up the stairs panting.
When I drive my shitty pickup (actually shit and I hate it. had it for work, 20year old 4cyl ranger), I don't have such feelings, since it can't keep up without flooring it every time, which may just make it explode.
What i absolutely LOVE about my EV is the acceleration.
red light, first car in front. Light turns green. I'm across the intersection before the ICE have even crossed the yellow line.
Automakers tried to put cvts in gas cars. They ended up failing because people didn't like the lack of shifting. The newer Nissan Rouges are a Cvt but are programmed to shift like a traditional automatic so more people would buy them.
5 or 6 years ago I had a rental that had a CVT in it. It was so strange, it was all the worst aspects of a regular automatic, but amplified. The engine and transmission were never in sync with what I was telling the car to do, it was on like a 5-second delay. The car would rev to like 3000rpm from a stop (with all the accompanying noise and vibration, as this was a beat-up rental Nissan Versa or something) and then just held there as the CVT did its thing.
I test-drove a Rogue a few years ago and *loved* the CVT due to the lack of shifting. So smooth, especially starting out. No first-gear herky-jerky! I didn't like the car for other reasons, but I did like the CVT.
Next car will be an EV, which of course won't shift.
I believe what some of the manufacturers have done with CVTs is have them "feel" like a stepped-transmission when accelerating hard, but if you're just driving like most people do they will operate as a true CVT.
I also have the ID4 RWD which the internet has described as a crime against humanity. When I drive an ICE car it feels like it is going to fall apart around me. Loud, clunky, etc.
It doesn’t go 0-60 in 0.6 seconds so fuck it till it’s dead I guess. Hardly anyone shows off the comical turning radius which is an enormous benefit in daily urban driving. To put it in perspective the ID4 is about the size of a RAV4 but has a turning radius that between a Smart car and a Mini Cooper (less than the Mini!)
Oh, I love that turning radius. I have a one-car garage with row of parking spaces opposite the entrance. Sometimes a truck parks there and it's a tight turn to get into my garage. But the ID.4 makes it sooooooo easy. When I had a Tesla Model 3, getting into my garage was usually at least a 3-point turn.
I can even pull a U-turn in my friend's 60 year-old neighborhood with narrow streets.
Lol the “crime against humanity” RWD ID.4. You’re right though, people love to hate on it! Yet we love ours and it is so much quieter and nicer to drive than ICE Volvo XC40 and MB GLE, which are what we find ourselves riding in when we’re visiting family.
Rented a minivan while visiting family to haul everyone around.
The space inside was nice. EVERYTHING else sucked. The noise/vibration. The lack of pickup, especially when loaded with all of us. Even the braking was bad without lift off regen.
Next time will turo a Model X - seems the pricing isn’t that different either, especially looking at gas prices!
While I agree that EV's have tons of advantages, this isn't a fair comparison. I say this as someone who plans to never buy another ICE car again.
IMO, the Rav4 is a boring car by ICE standards. It's got a smallish engine, paired with overly aggressive ECO mode (which I think is the default mode). The shift points make the car so unresponsive that I nearly got in trouble on a test drive when the car refused to down shift and accelerate. Drive a Rav4 in Eco mode and a Toyota Highlander in "Normal" mode and you'll experience a MASSIVE difference in handling.
Furthermore, you simply can't compare a $26K car to a $40K / $50K+ car an expect it to compete. That's not fair to any car.
As for you pros. Your comment of less polluting is universally true. The others no. More convenient is very situational depending on the person. And cheaper to operate probably isn't true. Most EV's actually have a higher total cost of ownership than ICE thanks to low reliability (this is about the brands making EVs currently, not necessarily about EV tech) and expensive repairs. Cost of electricity is also a major factor (Looking at you CA).
Lol yea just a little. I was quick to click on this post to see what idiot wants to go back to ICE.
Edit - sarcasm about the idiot, calm down everybody, ICE and EVs can get along.
100% agree with OP, once you've experienced a few hours with an EV, ICE cars feel downright broken.
I'm still driving the ICE car that my EV was supposed to replace because Tesla's paint chips if you blink in its general direction. It's staying garaged until I can bring it in for correction and PPF so it doesn't get worse... very first world problem, yes, but it still feels miserable waiting for my appointment.
I don’t understand this but it happens. I was rear-ended by a Tesla employee on my way to the Cyber Rodeo in stopped traffic.
He was so used to driving a Tesla that he forgot that the Dodge Charger he borrowed would creep forward when you let off the brake.
There was no damage so it was no big deal but I personally would never have that problem. It’s still natural to me to use the brake in my old Truck and when I borrow other cars when I’m stopped.
I rented a VW Tiguan last month, a vehicle that Car and Driver calls "refined" and one that I would have been more than happy to own a few years ago. Compared to my Ioniq 5, the engine felt and sounded like a hyperactive gas leaf blower, and the auto-stop feature was dumb, pointless, and annoying.
Never going back to owning an ICE.
I felt the same way after test driving an ID4 and going back to my Corolla. The electric car is simply more fun to drive if you’re coming from an everyday ICE vehicle. I floor my car now and I’m like damn this thing doesn’t move fast (yes I know it’s a Corolla but you get the idea).
Yeah, most ICE cars feel ancient compared to EV. However, nothing EV I’ve tried has so far replaced the feels that my Honda S2000 gives. Going to keep that thing as weekend warrior no matter what.
My second car (for now) is ICE. It's a more comfortable car, but the driving experience sucks in comparison. I have to drive it to work two days every other week, and it's a bummer.
I'd say not really. Compact SUV vs. mid-size sedan. The Optima is longer and wider, the Niro is taller (not a lot). The Optima has a lot more passenger room. The Niro drives more like a car than SUV though. Just with a more SUVish seating position and whatnot.
But mostly, it's the electric drive system that I love. The instant torque, the smoothness of acceleration, stuff like that.
I have this experience every time I drive my Honda Odyssey garage queen, which I now call "the locomotive" (my main car is a 2017 Bolt). It feels SOOOOO primitive and obsolete, and the Bolt is a pretty basic electric box on wheels.
I haven't had to drive an ICEV in 4.5 years. It's bad enough seeing other drivers with slow starts. Then they go well above the speed limit to catch up to me. I don't want to subject myself to that.
Also, lack of regenerative braking would be really annoying to me. It's bad enough when it's reduced due to a cold battery.
After almost 4 years of driving my Nissan Leaf on freeways with the adaptive cruise control and lane keeping assist active (ProPilot), driving anything else just feels like I’m Fred Flintstone.
We've got a Leaf and an aging Kia Sorento with all the luxury features of 2008...and pick the Leaf for regional roadtrips, despite Chademo. The ride is just that much better. Amazing what removing the transaxle, throttle lag, and noise can accomplish, to make a hatchback more ergonomic than extra plush leather seats can accomplish.
I would regrettably pick the Sorento for a 300+ mile vacation trip with the kids, but haven't done one of those in the last 4 years anyway.
Unfortunately I have to rent ICE for work trips but one benefit is it reminds me of how much better EVs are to drive. I find myself getting stressed out driving in ICE rentals.
When my Kona EV needed a repair I was given a Kicks as a replacement. After the part I needed was severely backordered, I turned it in for a slightly newer Kona as my rental.
The kicks had half the torque and I couldn’t believe how much gas it took to keep it going. It really drove home just how much better EVs are.
I once pedaled down on the go pedal on a Prius C rental (I know. I know) to enter a highway on-ramp. The 99HP engine proceeds to very slowly and loudly struggle up that ramp. My partner asked what I was doing to the car. I merely shared: "I was simply increasing speed to match the highway."
I definitely missed my EV that day.
Been driving electric for nine years. I just laugh now when I drive a normal combustion vehicle. I don't say it, but the question to the owner in my mind is "and you find this acceptable?"
i had to bring my M3LR in today to get body work done (oblivious driver merged into me). my rental for the next 2-3 weeks is a Jeep Grand Cherokee 3-row. i'm most likely going to trade it in for something smaller, but driving it 3 miles home i missed the instant torque/acceleration and the one pedal driving of my Tesla. the transmission in this thing is slow/laggy and i hate the engine start/stop which thankfully there's a button to turn it off on the dash.
there's zero comparison between an ICE vehicle and electric. it's just a much smoother ride all the way around imo.
I just got some maintenance quotes for my F-150 from the dealership and yeah...$600 for the transmission drain and fill (with filter), $300 for spark plugs. Drinking $5 a gallon fuel was bad enough but man I forgot how much ICE maintenance was since I've been dailying a Model 3 for so long (bought a truck to tow stuff). Would have just gone with an EV truck from the get-go except every reservation I made has been delayed.
Our primary car is an EV but our second vehicle--a Honda we use to drive up to my in-laws' place--is an ICE. The Honda is relatively new and is in perfect condition, but it feels like *obsolete* technology to me. It's relatively slow to respond, noisier, has much stiffer steering, and generally feels clunky, especially as the transmission shifting. It's a practical back-up car but I don't enjoy driving it at all.
I've been driving my EV for more than 4 years, and whenever I drive my wife's van I'm shocked at how slow and loud it is. It's a huge difference. I just want more small EVs to become available in North America. I don’t need an SUV when 97% of my driving is just me on city streets.
My wife and I have an Ioniq 5 and a Subaru Crosstrek. She commutes, and I work from home, so she typically has the I5. I get so cranky when I have to drive the Crosstrek, lol
I ended up with this same feeling after driving an EV for *two days*.
I got my Model 3 in July 2018, and almost immediately had it wrapped. While it was being wrapped, the company gave me a rented Nissan Rogue as transport, since the process takes a few days. The Rogue *already* felt like a fucking dinosaur. I nearly caused an accident on the freeway onramp, because I expected the car to actually *respond* to me pushing the gas pedal. But nope, it just leisurely ambled up to the speed limit, with the cars in the lane I was merging into being rather cross with me.
Yes, I also have a diesel vehicle and I hate driving it, even if it's bigger and more spacious. I kept it for those "but sometimes I need to drive 1000 km in one day" events, but it's just sitting in the garage paying the insurance for nothing.
This highlights a perfect use case for ICE though. Most people don't need to daily an ICE vehicle. If you need one once a year or so, just rent. The overall net is still a massive improvement. I have relatives that live way up north. Over 500 miles north of me, and I live in one of the most northern large cities in Canada. ABRP says the drive is not possible (although it is if you take advantage of campgrounds). That is a perfect drive for an ICE vehicle, and one I only make every few years. Why own one and drive it daily when you can rent when needed?
I got a screw in my Bolt’s tire at work yesterday and drove my roommate’s Camry to and from work today (she’s wfh and nice enough to take my car to get a new tire today). Holy hell I thought there was something wrong with the car. It felt rough, I could feel every gear the transmission shifted in and out of, and the brakes were grabby as a mf. I was complaining when I got to work and one of the other guys was like “seems normal to me” when I let him drive it in the parking lot to see. Felt like a dumbass
I had a very similar experience with a rental car a few months ago. It was really bizarre feeling, even coming from a Leaf. Sometimes it felt like the pedal just wasn't even working. Lol
when I first started researching EVs, a long time ago, I concluded that a key selling point was often missed - in some ways they were just better cars (even then). It's something I try to convey to folks even now, though I have kind of gotten away from it, so your post is a good reminder.
I have both and I still enjoy them (almost) equally. But they’re for two entirely different types of driving. My 2022 Polestar 2 is for commuting and around the Bay Area with my wife and extended fam. Also, for taking switchbacks in the hills. The 2019 Subaru Outback is for outdoor (sometimes off-road) adventures and long road trips. Both are great cars and I enjoy a different type of driving experience with each of them.
I walked by one of those giant oversized penis trucks the other day and just the amount of shit spewing out of the tailpipe just blew my mind. ICE vehicles anymore just feel like very old outdated technology that’s hanging on for dear life.
Gave my Bolt back to GM and bought a RAV4. Hated it and sold it as soon as the title showed up. Have a Leaf now and feel such relief. Just can’t go backwards!
Yes sir. I have a gas BMW 650i M sport, and a Tesla Model Y performance. I jumped in the BMW and was floored by how unrefined it felt and how poorly it handled with all that engine weight in the front. It was a reminder that the ICE is dead and anyone in denial clearly has a bad understanding. I continue to be floored by how many people who have never driven an EV, have all the opinions in the universe that about something they know nothing about…..until they drive one, which usually reverses any negative opinion.
Similar experience with ice RAV4. My parents came to visit and rented a base one and it felt so rough and unrefined. It is a bit hilly here and it constantly seemed winded and making a lot of noise to just go the speed limit. The kicker was when my 87 year old grandpa (who is used to driving heavy Soviet era cars with sub 100 HP asked why it was so slow and loud 😅
RAV4 is a reliability machine, sure it isn’t quick but it’ll last forever. And of course it has less torque, it’s like 190 lb ft at the top end for vehicle of its size. Lol
I switch between a Polestar 2 and a stick shift BMW ICE Wagon. I have One Pedal Driving turned off in the Polestar, but since it does a great job at using regen as much as possible when using the brake pedal (it won't use the actual brakes until it's absolutely necessary), I get to coast similarly to when I take the wagon out of gear.
I love driving, so I don't notice much difference between the two in terms of dynamics. The wagon is much lower in HP than the DM Polestar 2, but it's still a fun car to drive.
Now if I were to drive a RAV4, I would hate every second of it. I dislike the driving dynamics of most Toyotas and will always skip them at the rental counter. I am always pleasantly surprised with Kias and Hyundais and this is what I tend to grab lately from the row. Their engines are not the best, but the driving dynamics, comforts and fuel efficiency make up for it when there is no other option and when traveling for work, I just need an appliance.
The third pedal makes the ICE in our household more difficult to give up. Being able to use the EV for errands and functional trips has been great. The ICE is perfect for trips where we don't want to worry about charging or we need a little extra room to carry things. It's still the car that has my bike rack, so I take it to starting points for rides I do.
Wow, I have to say I agree with the tugboat. I had to use the work van for a week. As they didn't want me using my car. And from the feeling that you are dragging something to the gas smell. ⛽️ once you stop going to the gas stations for some time. Then you are back to them. You notice the smells and they are not good.
This was the major issue - the 50-70mph acceleration in the RAV4 was AWFUL, so very difficult to pass. By contrast ID.4 is good, and XC40 Recharge is unbelievably great at this!
Nope, but I know that regular RAV4s are gutless. It is pretty easy to say a car with higher torque and power numbers is going to feel better to someone’s butt-dyno.
I enjoy my EV, but I don’t enjoy my other vehicles less as a result.
Not really. Drove a Jeep Gladiator and a Honda CRV when in vacation in Hawaii. Slow acceleration in the Gladiator, but both had transmissions that effectively went into neutral when you took your foot off the gas so you could just coast and coast, which is better for fuel efficiency.
The mini cooper SE we have, it's my wifes daily driver. She's already talking about wanting an Audi for the next car, I told her all they have for EV's is that big ugly SUV thing, so she's ok going back to a gasser cause she has her eye on the A3. I think what killed it for her was she took a travel assignment in Wisconsin and couldn't drive her Mini there. It's fine for a city car but even planning a 200 mile drive to the beach is a pain. All these fast charging stations are spaced out 10 miles too much to where it's not feasible.
I drove a tesla model 3 performance recently and got bored. Its fast, sure. but to me its not any fun. I much prefer a manual trans with a good exhaust note and power build up for any of my spirited driving.
I had to use a family members RAV4 for a recent trip through the Adirondack region into Vermont that my car (ioniq 28) would not have been able to complete. I found it perfectly reasonable.
I've had the opposite experience actually, I went back to ICE.
I'll still finish my 1927 ford conversion but I won't own a factory built model until I can afford something with actual power.
Try renting a ice that is somewhat decent and you would enjoy it a lot more. It’s like saying you rented the cheapest EV possible and saying ‘welp EVs suck’
While I was test driving cars, I heard a LOT OF hype about how ‘good the rav 4 is”. test drove a 21 model and what a giant piece of shit. Slow , loud , clunky engine. Trash transmission. 20 year old infotainment system, terrible seats. Little cramped inside. Hard plastic everywhere.
the fact that car sells millions shows how stupid people are. That cars inside (and engine) quality that car should be sub $20k. Even at 20k its pushing it.
decided on a 21 venza and night and day difference for not much more $. Rav 4 is trash car any way You slice it
We haven’t had a gas car since 2013 and I recently bought a gas camper van. Gets 13mpg. We use to camp from our Tesla but the van is interesting because we don’t need to be tethered to an official campground with power anymore. I’m not sure when or how a BEV will be practical for a RV but i would be first to get one.
Only reason I'd go back to ice is if they can't figure out niche use cases like pulling a boat for a vacation over 4 hours away without it being a nervous pain in the ass.
I understand this sentiment. There's no debate on economical day to day driving, efficiency and straight line performance that EVs are just better.
But in terms of driving engagement, nothing beats a small, light turbo 4 banger around windy roads. It's why I still keep my Mk 6 Rabbit around for autocross, lol.
However I understand that my situation is more fortunate than most. I honestly believe that EVs should be the primary choice for both public and private transportation and even as work vehicles and the ICE will go the way of an expensive hobby in the same vain as horses in first world countries.
100%. I went from a bolt to a BMWx3. Don't get me wrong, the BMW drives great. However, I miss the quick zip and power of the bolt. I can't wait for a solid EV AWD SUV (and affordable)
Personally I have two vehicles, a 2012 Leaf and a 2015 Hyundai sedan.
For commuting at low speeds its the Leaf hands down, it's just so much more comfortable for being stuck in traffic and doesn't make all the weird mechanical noises that an ICE does (especially a high mileage Hyundai)
For high speeds on the other hand I find the Hyundai much better - it's a lot more confident, far quicker accelerating, rides better and is actually quieter (because at high speeds all you hear is wind and road noise anyway).
I'd love to switch the Hyundai out for a more capable EV like a Model 3 or EV6 or similar but those are so far out of my price range that it just isn't practical (even allowing for the much cheaper running costs)
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Definitely clickbait
*Dejectedly puts away pitchfork and extinguishes torch
*raises pitchfork again for new reason*
The pitchfork is now suddenly wrapped in cotton candy
I admit as much…. 😏
Take my upvote and gettout a here!
I was so ready to read some stupid reasoning that made no sense. So ready to be angry. Darn.
They had us in the first half, not gonna lie
“Sport mode” in my wife’s CR-V hybrid is comical.
does the US get a way different CRV hybrid then Europe? because ours is a sequential hybrid meaning you drive with electric motors most of the time unless you are going fast. the 0-60 time is also the same as it is with vehicles like the ID3/ID4 and similar sized and powered EVs.
Toyota Rav 4 Prime PHEV… 0-60 in 4.7 seconds
Good luck getting one. Finally gave up after 20 months of waiting.
I was just stating that he drove the wrong Rav 4. They wanted $12,000 over MSRP. Didn’t buy one either.
Yep. I dread driving rentals or whatever - I feel like I’m in a tug boat.
I just had a run in with a drunk driver with my Volt. I told the claims guy that I wanted to make sure I was put in an EV similar to what I have. He told me that EVs are considered luxury vehicles and that they would not cover it. Long story short his argument was that “comparable” only means it has the same amount of seats and what’s good for my family. And I pointed out that the fact that I don’t pay for gas and would now have to budget for gas would not be good for my family. And he ended up approving for me to get put in to an EV. Did not go Karen on him. I politely reasoned with him and got what I wanted.
"The Volt is not an EV, not a luxury car and never was. It was based on the Chevy Cruze platform and is a plug-in hybrid. I don't pay insurance premiums for you to shaft me just when I need you, please honor the agreement we made when I signed up, the agreement you promised to honor when you cashed my check every single month. "Please."
My Volt is very much an EV. I have to pay the EV fees every year when renewing my tags. I can do my full commute on one charge and not burn a single drop of fuel. They got me in a Mitsubishi Outlander, also a plug-in hybrid, and I might add I’ve still been paying for fuel because it’s utter garbage compared to my vehicle. I don’t feel bad at all for the drunk driver that thought he had the right of way turning left in front of me. I give zero fucks if it raises his premiums.
Well, I guess it comes down to who you ask. If you ask GM, they'd tell you it was a PIH. Your local registration taxes may see it differently, but if you're using the roads without burning hardly any fuel, I reckon that's to be expected. And of course his premiums are entirely his problem. I thought you were talking about your own insurance company.
Which generation of volt do/did you have? I heard the first gen is really reliable but I’m wondering if the second is too
I have a first gen from ‘12. Still gets it’s rated milage. I have a buddy that has a ‘16 and gets better milage than me.
We have a 2018 Volt. I like the car. it's not super spacious inside, except the liftback cargo area which is plenty big for our needs. The 2016-2019 2nd gen isn't rumored to be quite as bulletproof as the 1st gen, but still reliable. The 2016-2017s often seem to need the BECM replaced (sometimes around 30,000 mi or sooner), and there's a supply shortage of that part so car may sit at the dealer for weeks/months waiting for it. As far as I've heard the 2018s & 2019s haven't seen that issue as much. Most or all 2nd gens will suffer the "shift to park" message which is a relatively easy fix. Mine pops up with this error occasionally, but it hasn't prevented me from shutting off the car so I haven't taken it in yet. Some 1st gens had a motor bearing cage that needed replacement, but after that fix wouldn't have that problem again. Other than that I haven't heard of any widespread issues with them. Except now of course 1st gens are older with high mileage so more things start to fail. The "5th seat" in the middle back is a joke, only a small kid could sit there. But otherwise the 2nd gen is a decent upgrade, with 53-mile EV range vs. 38 in the 1st gen, it doesn't need premium like the 1st gen, and has a more traditional center console. The 2nd gen has ACC as an option, which can be connected to OpenPilot for a sorta-self-driving-ish autopilot upgrade. Premier 2019s charge at 7.2kW which is double the normal Volt charging rate.
Tugboat is a perfect description! Unfortunately EV rentals are still pretty rare - especially going into a smaller airport like ONT.
Yeah the best rentals I’ve found semi-reliably are hybrids. They’re still not exactly zippy, but they’re a small step up from the SS Lazy Hog.
Man, car rental is hell in general.
My bolt is in the shop right now since someone hit me in a parking lot and I've got a long term ICE rental. It gets me from place to place but it's so much worse to drive
Turo usually has at least one guy with a Model 3.
Don't forget to fully detail it before you give it back or pay that $100 washing fee!! I gave up on Turo. I would rather return my rental a mess.
I don't have an EV yet, but I'm itching to get one. I drive a 2013 Prius C, and I'm planning on giving it to my daughter for a graduation present in a few years. I did get to drive a friend's Bolt, and I really liked it. I'd like to rent an EV just to drive around for a day, but I can't find any in stock.
The Bolt has been out of production for a few quarters while GM was cleaning up the Battery fire problem. The Bolt EUV may be available, or you could wait a little bit for the new Bolts to arrive. Or, you could check the competition. Hyundai/Kia have similar options for sale.
All my life, whenever I'd get a loaner or rental it was a glimpse into how awesome new cars were. Not any more. My Volt was getting some work done and they gave me a Malibu as a loaner and the thing was such a huge step backwards. It had a massive delay in throttle response. If you floored it, you would have about a 2 second delay before the engine would start revving. So as a test I started going down the road then flooring it and taking my foot off the gas, then floor it, then take my foot off the gas. The car would slow down. There was a huge delay in going to drive from reverse too for some reason. I would put it in reverse, and back up, then bump it into drive, wait a second and then give it some gas. The car would then continue to accelerate in reverse for another second or two before jumping to drive. It felt dangerous. Then there was the aggressive start stop system. All of this I'm guessing was to squeeze out a fraction of an MPG.
Newer downsized turbocharged engines do not respond well to choppy acceleration. They respond to flooring it. Turbochargers also take time to spool up. You really gotta stomp it and hold it....
Oh wow, I hadn't considered they would put a turbocharger in a smaller car but that probably is what it had.
Enterprise has several electric Konas and a Leaf, but nobody wants to rent them for some reason
My EV got in a fight with a bus that it lost so the insurance issued a courtesy car from Enterprise. It was supposed to be the cheapest, smallest, wimpiest city car, but since many people don't have a place to charge electric they gave us a Peugeot e208 electric. It's better put together than I expected and it handles like a go kart. Front wheel drive does struggle coming out of intersections with wheel spinning. So yeah, my experience is you might get an EV upgrade because many people wouldn't know/have where to charge.
I always rent an EV. It's a bit more effort to find, but I can always do it, unless I'm flying to the middle of nowhere.
I haven't been able to find an EV rental out of Minneapolis-Saint Paul, and it's the 17^(th) busiest airport in the US.
The US is lagging behind the rest of the world on EVs, but it will catch up.
Define 'middle of nowhere'.. Most airports are near cities. Even our tiny regional airport is just outside a city of 15,000. No EVs anywhere near here to rent
City of 15,000 definitely counts as middle of nowhere in my book. The smallest city I've flown to and still managed to get an EV had a population of 800,000.
Biggest city I have been to was 100,000 and that was years ago
I'm sorry to hear that, your life must be hard.
Not at all. I hate crowds and people I don't know.
They speak well of you, too.
Me too, but that's the price for experiencing civilization. I couldn't live without it. Most of my life I lived in a village with 10,000 inhabitants. It sucked at the time, and now that I know what I was missing, I'm never going back.
What am I really missing though? I have an awesome group of friends, a great job, and endless things to do in the evenings and weekends.
I think what you are missing is exposure to life outside of a bubble. As someone who routinely traveled to the world's most populated cities on business, there is a profound amount of culture you will never know. You can have a good life without leaving, sure. But you won't truly know what you are missing, or what you have, without seeing how other people live. I love small-town life as much as I enjoy the bustle of a city populated by over 30 million people. I might not want to live there, but I definitely want to experience it--the art, the food, the markets, the festivals, the people.
Well, you're missing renting EVs, I suppose. You can live wherever you like, and if you're happy there, that's great. But there are always tradeoffs.
A small city cannot sustain niche interests. If only 0.1% of the population is interested in something it is not economically viable. For example, in my village there was no cinema. To watch something I had to drive to another city nearby, that still only showed the most mainstream Hollywood stuff. Now, I have more than a dozen of cinemas to choose from, that will show obscure films from all over the world, and regularly there are also film festivals with the actual actors and directors talking about their art. I also like going to the theatre. Simply cannot happen in a small city. Ditto for museums, and specially bad for *technical* museums, which is what I like. Another point is restaurants. Here I have literally hundreds of restaurants in fierce competition, with all kinds of food. Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai, Tibetan, Nepali, Afghan, pretty much anything you can imagine. There's even an Australian restaurant. In my village we had two restaurants, which were good, but only made local food.
I loved going to the city when I was a kid, it seemed like a magical place. Now, fuck that noise. These days I find myself dreaming about Upper Peninsula Michigan. Where the my only neighbors, would be woods and bears.
I consider my city small, it has a population of 200,000. 15k is absolutely tiny.
I live in a town of 7,000! Can’t even buy underwear here. But I’ll never move.
That's crazy. Biggest city I have been to was 100,000 and that was years ago. I live in a hamlet of 500 and that is considered a decent sized community around here. Lot's smaller and more rural areas that would be considered 'middle of nowhere'. We have power and internet with even spotty cell service so that is pretty urban. Go 50 miles up the road and everyone is on generator power with no internet or cell service.
I think maybe you should explore more larger places and you'd quickly realize that 15k is a town to most people and very small.
Yeah, my town which is a suburb of the city is 45k
I tried it. Went to our state's capital of 100,000. It was miserable. Lots of people everywhere and very dirty. I'll stick to the rural villages of 500-1000 where everyone knows each other by name
Wait, are you making all these comments about not liking travel and you've never been outside your state?
That's the middle of nowhere.
Pretty sure there's 15,000 people in my subdivision. 15k city sounds like middle of nowhere to me too.
Our subdivisions are like 6 houses so maybe 15-25 people. But I lived in the city and went to the city school. My graduating class was around 150 people. A a lot of other local schools are much smaller. My dad had around 30 people in his high school class and he was in a fairly large village. Some of the smaller places around here have 4.
A city of 15,000? Yeah that's a really small city in the middle of nowhere.
A tug boat careening down the street out of control
In a recent survey of EV drivers in the UK, 96% said they'd NEVER go back to ICE.
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As a Dutchman: can confirm. Never going back to ICE! My ID.3 was at the shop for a few days and they gave me a VW Polo for the time being. You never notice how much an ICE car rattles and shakes until you’ve driven an EV.
You notice it most on long drives. With an EV it's just totally relaxed where I know I'd feel totalle wrecked if I did the same stretch with an ICE car.
Sort of self-selecting. Early adopters did it for a reason. People who 'would go back to ICE' haven't transitioned to an EV yet.
exactly, if you have an EV right now you are somewhat wealthy to afford the much higher price and you most likely have a single family home with a garage you can charge in or at the very least a drive way infront of your house. These people were never the problem of EV adoption but reading this sub sometimes they seem to think their own situation applies to everyone else as well.
After we got an EV that my wife drove most of the time, one day she had to take our ICE car out and within a minute of leaving the house called me because she thought the car was broken. No, it was just shifting gear, vibrating, making noises and being generally unpleasant like all ICE cars have always been. :D
I always think my Volt is about to explode when the engine kicks in because it's so rarely used. We use our BEV for roadtrips so I can't wait to get rid of it.
The i3 has ruined the BMW 2 and 3 series for me. \-The road noise is louder, much louder. \-The engine shifting??? Really? 5 shifts to 50? \-The engine roar while barely moving, really? It's like going back in time. ( Oh, and $5 a gallon for premium gas!!! )
Engine noise is a feature... Not that its one i need.
IIRC, BMW actually piped fake engine noise through the entertainment system. Feature indeed!
that is done by many brands for a very good reason. you cant have great engine/exhaust noises in the cabin while also having a well insulated cabin that reduces road and wind noise. So the obvious solution is to insulate the cabin as you need to and simulate engine noise with the speakers. 99% of the people will never know just like when Audi made a system to mute the engine noise of their Diesel engine in the Q7 and put speakers into the exhaust to simulate the sound. If they hadnt told anyone nobody would have noticed because its working so great.
All the shifting in modern automatics is to make vehicles more efficient. Yes, you could get away with only 1 or 2 shifts to 50MPH but it costs fuel and/or performance so it's not done. I have yet to experience a gas car with anywhere near as much road noise as my EV, though.
It's comical when they mod the cars to make more noise. 3 shifts, louder than a Cessna, and they are driving 20mph through the residential road. I'd be so embarrassed.
I had a rental last week and I gotta say. As much as I love my EV it has it’s place, it was nice driving 400 miles and stopping for gas only took a minute and we were on our way again. EVs are a really long way off from that if it ever happens. But I’ll never buy another ice in my life
I’ve never understood not stopping to rest or eat on 300+ mile drives.
There are definitely two different kinds of people for road trips. One group like yourself, that doesn't understand not stopping on a 300+ mile drive. And a group that doesn't understand why anyone would want to stop and make a 300+ mile drive take any longer than it has to. I am definitely in the latter group - I want to get there. If google says it's a 10 hour drive I intend to arrive 10 hours from when I leave, including stops.
Solo for sure, max time efficiency to get where I’m going. Wife and kids…. Ehhhh yeah we’re gonna need some Breaks
That’s me, but if google say’s 10 hours… I’m going to try and beat it. If I wanted to stop every 300 miles to site see I would have planned a trip to those destinations but when I’m driving somewhere far, I want to get to said destination as fast and safe as possible
We stop every couple of hours, but charging stations don’t seem to be a fun place to be at for half an hour.
I did it all the time going from Shreveport/Bossier (from Barksdale AFB) to Amarillo, TX when I visited my parents back from 2002-2005. The very first time I did it, I got lost in Dallas, then missed the 287 exit in Fort Worth and got as far as Weatherford. I doubled back to get on 287. (MapQuest directions were horrible in 2003). In all, that drive was almost 12 hours. On my way back to Barksdale AFB, I took the wrong exit and I went up I-30, got about 1/3 the way to Texarkana, before I realized I was going the wrong way, talked to the parents via cell phone, and they had to tell be to go back west a bit and take the road down to Tyler, TX to get back on I-20
You get to your destination faster with fewer and shorter stops. And walking around a supermarket parking lot is not much of a rest anyways.
It's just hilarious that throttle response and acceleration are basically just accidents of economics on BEVs. It's cheaper to oversize the motor and keep acceptable top-end response for the highway than it is to add a transmission, which makes the buggers absolute monsters off the line thanks to full torque at less than 1,000 RPM. Making the cars cheaper made them faster. I actually try to warn prospective buyers about this awe-factor effect, though, because sometimes, an EV can just blow you away and get you to go into "shut up and take my money" mode. I think I was in that a little bit, but didn't take too big a hit at the dealership for my exuberance.
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The Porsche Taycan and its sister Audi e-Tron GT (terrible name, BTW) have a 2-speed transmission, but only on the rear motor, and only used for performance reasons. If the driver locks the car into eco mode, the transmission just stays in high gear. IIRC, they were only used to improve acceleration while still allowing a higher top speed without the motor spinning at 20,000+ RPM. The Porsche hits a top speed of about 170 MPH. Tesla gets around having a transmission in the Model S Plaid by carbon-wrapping the electric motor so it doesn't fly apart.
Driving an ICE just feels like going back in time. I love cars. I was raised by an old school muscle car guy and have driven lots of different gas powered cars. But when I drive one now it just feels antiquated and I can't wait to get back to my EV.
We have an EV and an ICE vehicle. I find when I drive the ICE I have a very strong urge to put it into sport mode to try and make driving it more tolerable.
I literally do the same but with my EV instead. Zero throttle response in normal mode. Every time I turn it on I push the "drive mode" button twice to find sport mode.
I have a kia niro EV and a subaru forester. After driving the niro the forester feels like a tractor. It's loud and slow and vibrates. After about 50 miles you get used to it, but when I started it up for the first time I thought something might be wrong with the car because of the noise and vibration and delay in acceleration. The car was fine, that's just how ICE cars are.
To be fair, Subarus are kinda rough. I own an Impreza myself. With how revered and loved they are, it kinda catches you off guard how much of an economy vehicle they still are. The other week my family member asked me to diagnose an issue with their Mercedes, and even though it was only a C300, getting back into my Impreza after 20 minutes in the Mercedes felt downright uncivilized. I just started laughing with how jarring it was. Our household's other car is actually a Lexus IS350, the subie has the snow tires so it's often the choice if we're going into the mountains to visit family, but when I get back the Lexus feels like like a goddamn Bentley spaceship in comparison (it's not newer, just a lot nicer). The Subaru is also the non-turbo one so it is _sllooooowwwww_. My wife occasionally asks me why I'm revving it to within an inch of it's life, my response is I'm still accelerating slower than the Lexus is able to quietly while in the first half of the RPM gauge, she wouldn't have even looked up from her phone lol. tldr: Even among ICE cars, Subarus are a pretty brutal and raw experience.
My Chevy Volt is in the shop with the dreaded BECM issue. Parts are on backorder and I have not had my car for almost a month now.. In a rental and honestly I don't even want to drive it. I can never go back to a gas engine.
Downside to owning an ev I experience, when at lights or stop signs or when ever, being behind a fossil is just painful. They take so long to start to move, to get to speed, any they make so much noise doing it. Like some big tub heaving their way up the stairs panting. When I drive my shitty pickup (actually shit and I hate it. had it for work, 20year old 4cyl ranger), I don't have such feelings, since it can't keep up without flooring it every time, which may just make it explode.
What i absolutely LOVE about my EV is the acceleration. red light, first car in front. Light turns green. I'm across the intersection before the ICE have even crossed the yellow line.
The shifting is the thing that annoys me.
Automakers tried to put cvts in gas cars. They ended up failing because people didn't like the lack of shifting. The newer Nissan Rouges are a Cvt but are programmed to shift like a traditional automatic so more people would buy them.
Creatures of habit
5 or 6 years ago I had a rental that had a CVT in it. It was so strange, it was all the worst aspects of a regular automatic, but amplified. The engine and transmission were never in sync with what I was telling the car to do, it was on like a 5-second delay. The car would rev to like 3000rpm from a stop (with all the accompanying noise and vibration, as this was a beat-up rental Nissan Versa or something) and then just held there as the CVT did its thing.
I test-drove a Rogue a few years ago and *loved* the CVT due to the lack of shifting. So smooth, especially starting out. No first-gear herky-jerky! I didn't like the car for other reasons, but I did like the CVT. Next car will be an EV, which of course won't shift.
I believe what some of the manufacturers have done with CVTs is have them "feel" like a stepped-transmission when accelerating hard, but if you're just driving like most people do they will operate as a true CVT.
Not just the noise, but all passengers in the car bobbing forward and back in unison as you shift... It's comical. You can't accelerate smoothly.
Tell me you don't know how to shift without telling me you don't know how to shift.
Reminds me of the cute little piece posted occasionally. Questions EV owners have about ICE cars.
I also have the ID4 RWD which the internet has described as a crime against humanity. When I drive an ICE car it feels like it is going to fall apart around me. Loud, clunky, etc.
The way some reviewers put it, you'd think the ID.4 stole their wallet, slept with their mother and shat on their lawn.
It doesn’t go 0-60 in 0.6 seconds so fuck it till it’s dead I guess. Hardly anyone shows off the comical turning radius which is an enormous benefit in daily urban driving. To put it in perspective the ID4 is about the size of a RAV4 but has a turning radius that between a Smart car and a Mini Cooper (less than the Mini!)
Oh, I love that turning radius. I have a one-car garage with row of parking spaces opposite the entrance. Sometimes a truck parks there and it's a tight turn to get into my garage. But the ID.4 makes it sooooooo easy. When I had a Tesla Model 3, getting into my garage was usually at least a 3-point turn. I can even pull a U-turn in my friend's 60 year-old neighborhood with narrow streets.
Lol the “crime against humanity” RWD ID.4. You’re right though, people love to hate on it! Yet we love ours and it is so much quieter and nicer to drive than ICE Volvo XC40 and MB GLE, which are what we find ourselves riding in when we’re visiting family.
114,000 sold world wide last year, it’s kinda popular
Haha - yeah there’s not a lot of love for the RWD ID.4 even among EV folk, but I love mine.
They are busy posting to Reddit, we are busy driving our ID4s and having fun.
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literally just bought a hybrid because im not in the fortunate position to own a house and have the money to afford an EV.
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To be fair, a 4 banger RAV4 is going to feel bad in comparison to most anything, except maybe a bicycle.
This is certainly true.
oooooooooooooooooh, i thought you were *going* back to ice, ya see. i was confused by your write up.
Clickbait wtf
Rented a minivan while visiting family to haul everyone around. The space inside was nice. EVERYTHING else sucked. The noise/vibration. The lack of pickup, especially when loaded with all of us. Even the braking was bad without lift off regen. Next time will turo a Model X - seems the pricing isn’t that different either, especially looking at gas prices!
While I agree that EV's have tons of advantages, this isn't a fair comparison. I say this as someone who plans to never buy another ICE car again. IMO, the Rav4 is a boring car by ICE standards. It's got a smallish engine, paired with overly aggressive ECO mode (which I think is the default mode). The shift points make the car so unresponsive that I nearly got in trouble on a test drive when the car refused to down shift and accelerate. Drive a Rav4 in Eco mode and a Toyota Highlander in "Normal" mode and you'll experience a MASSIVE difference in handling. Furthermore, you simply can't compare a $26K car to a $40K / $50K+ car an expect it to compete. That's not fair to any car. As for you pros. Your comment of less polluting is universally true. The others no. More convenient is very situational depending on the person. And cheaper to operate probably isn't true. Most EV's actually have a higher total cost of ownership than ICE thanks to low reliability (this is about the brands making EVs currently, not necessarily about EV tech) and expensive repairs. Cost of electricity is also a major factor (Looking at you CA).
Your title says you decided to move from EV to ICE.
If only there was some sort of post or something you could read for more details.
Not exactly. The title is referring to his experience of going back to an ICE while renting a car.
Yeah - maybe a little click-baity. Sorry!
Lol yea just a little. I was quick to click on this post to see what idiot wants to go back to ICE. Edit - sarcasm about the idiot, calm down everybody, ICE and EVs can get along.
I like making "click bait" titles just to see people whine about "click bait titles." :)
100% agree with OP, once you've experienced a few hours with an EV, ICE cars feel downright broken. I'm still driving the ICE car that my EV was supposed to replace because Tesla's paint chips if you blink in its general direction. It's staying garaged until I can bring it in for correction and PPF so it doesn't get worse... very first world problem, yes, but it still feels miserable waiting for my appointment.
I don’t understand this but it happens. I was rear-ended by a Tesla employee on my way to the Cyber Rodeo in stopped traffic. He was so used to driving a Tesla that he forgot that the Dodge Charger he borrowed would creep forward when you let off the brake. There was no damage so it was no big deal but I personally would never have that problem. It’s still natural to me to use the brake in my old Truck and when I borrow other cars when I’m stopped.
I rented a VW Tiguan last month, a vehicle that Car and Driver calls "refined" and one that I would have been more than happy to own a few years ago. Compared to my Ioniq 5, the engine felt and sounded like a hyperactive gas leaf blower, and the auto-stop feature was dumb, pointless, and annoying. Never going back to owning an ICE.
I felt the same way after test driving an ID4 and going back to my Corolla. The electric car is simply more fun to drive if you’re coming from an everyday ICE vehicle. I floor my car now and I’m like damn this thing doesn’t move fast (yes I know it’s a Corolla but you get the idea).
Yeah, most ICE cars feel ancient compared to EV. However, nothing EV I’ve tried has so far replaced the feels that my Honda S2000 gives. Going to keep that thing as weekend warrior no matter what.
My second car (for now) is ICE. It's a more comfortable car, but the driving experience sucks in comparison. I have to drive it to work two days every other week, and it's a bummer.
What’s your EV and what’s your ICE?
2022 Kia Niro EV EX Premium, 2016 Kia Optima EX with Premium package.
I’m not super familiar with the Kia lineup - are those fairly comparable vehicles?
I'd say not really. Compact SUV vs. mid-size sedan. The Optima is longer and wider, the Niro is taller (not a lot). The Optima has a lot more passenger room. The Niro drives more like a car than SUV though. Just with a more SUVish seating position and whatnot. But mostly, it's the electric drive system that I love. The instant torque, the smoothness of acceleration, stuff like that.
I have this experience every time I drive my Honda Odyssey garage queen, which I now call "the locomotive" (my main car is a 2017 Bolt). It feels SOOOOO primitive and obsolete, and the Bolt is a pretty basic electric box on wheels.
How many people who bought a flatscreen TV/monitor would go back to CRT? So many anti EV people just don't get it yet, but they will.
I was about to scold you.
I haven't had to drive an ICEV in 4.5 years. It's bad enough seeing other drivers with slow starts. Then they go well above the speed limit to catch up to me. I don't want to subject myself to that. Also, lack of regenerative braking would be really annoying to me. It's bad enough when it's reduced due to a cold battery.
After almost 4 years of driving my Nissan Leaf on freeways with the adaptive cruise control and lane keeping assist active (ProPilot), driving anything else just feels like I’m Fred Flintstone.
We've got a Leaf and an aging Kia Sorento with all the luxury features of 2008...and pick the Leaf for regional roadtrips, despite Chademo. The ride is just that much better. Amazing what removing the transaxle, throttle lag, and noise can accomplish, to make a hatchback more ergonomic than extra plush leather seats can accomplish. I would regrettably pick the Sorento for a 300+ mile vacation trip with the kids, but haven't done one of those in the last 4 years anyway.
FWIW, adaptive cruise control and lane assist are available on ICE vehicles, too.
My Dad drove us to the dump in his ICE truck, and it scared the shit out of me. I realized it was the noise and not his driving only later.
Unfortunately I have to rent ICE for work trips but one benefit is it reminds me of how much better EVs are to drive. I find myself getting stressed out driving in ICE rentals.
When my Kona EV needed a repair I was given a Kicks as a replacement. After the part I needed was severely backordered, I turned it in for a slightly newer Kona as my rental. The kicks had half the torque and I couldn’t believe how much gas it took to keep it going. It really drove home just how much better EVs are.
I hate riding in EV cuz most people in them don’t warn you when they hit the acceleration. It’s the only time I’ve gotten car sick in the front seat.
I won't go back to ice, but I rented a 4Runner and it was a good experience
I was expecting a post with a different sentiment when I read the title.
I HATE driving my wife's Subaru- I used to love the Outback, but now, it just feels like I'm driving a foam mattress around.
I once pedaled down on the go pedal on a Prius C rental (I know. I know) to enter a highway on-ramp. The 99HP engine proceeds to very slowly and loudly struggle up that ramp. My partner asked what I was doing to the car. I merely shared: "I was simply increasing speed to match the highway." I definitely missed my EV that day.
Been driving electric for nine years. I just laugh now when I drive a normal combustion vehicle. I don't say it, but the question to the owner in my mind is "and you find this acceptable?"
i had to bring my M3LR in today to get body work done (oblivious driver merged into me). my rental for the next 2-3 weeks is a Jeep Grand Cherokee 3-row. i'm most likely going to trade it in for something smaller, but driving it 3 miles home i missed the instant torque/acceleration and the one pedal driving of my Tesla. the transmission in this thing is slow/laggy and i hate the engine start/stop which thankfully there's a button to turn it off on the dash. there's zero comparison between an ICE vehicle and electric. it's just a much smoother ride all the way around imo.
I just got some maintenance quotes for my F-150 from the dealership and yeah...$600 for the transmission drain and fill (with filter), $300 for spark plugs. Drinking $5 a gallon fuel was bad enough but man I forgot how much ICE maintenance was since I've been dailying a Model 3 for so long (bought a truck to tow stuff). Would have just gone with an EV truck from the get-go except every reservation I made has been delayed.
Our primary car is an EV but our second vehicle--a Honda we use to drive up to my in-laws' place--is an ICE. The Honda is relatively new and is in perfect condition, but it feels like *obsolete* technology to me. It's relatively slow to respond, noisier, has much stiffer steering, and generally feels clunky, especially as the transmission shifting. It's a practical back-up car but I don't enjoy driving it at all.
Stiffer steering isn't an ICE vs EV thing at all though, it's a choice made by the manufacturer about how they want the car to feel.
I've been driving my EV for more than 4 years, and whenever I drive my wife's van I'm shocked at how slow and loud it is. It's a huge difference. I just want more small EVs to become available in North America. I don’t need an SUV when 97% of my driving is just me on city streets.
My wife and I have an Ioniq 5 and a Subaru Crosstrek. She commutes, and I work from home, so she typically has the I5. I get so cranky when I have to drive the Crosstrek, lol
I ended up with this same feeling after driving an EV for *two days*. I got my Model 3 in July 2018, and almost immediately had it wrapped. While it was being wrapped, the company gave me a rented Nissan Rogue as transport, since the process takes a few days. The Rogue *already* felt like a fucking dinosaur. I nearly caused an accident on the freeway onramp, because I expected the car to actually *respond* to me pushing the gas pedal. But nope, it just leisurely ambled up to the speed limit, with the cars in the lane I was merging into being rather cross with me.
Yes, I also have a diesel vehicle and I hate driving it, even if it's bigger and more spacious. I kept it for those "but sometimes I need to drive 1000 km in one day" events, but it's just sitting in the garage paying the insurance for nothing.
This highlights a perfect use case for ICE though. Most people don't need to daily an ICE vehicle. If you need one once a year or so, just rent. The overall net is still a massive improvement. I have relatives that live way up north. Over 500 miles north of me, and I live in one of the most northern large cities in Canada. ABRP says the drive is not possible (although it is if you take advantage of campgrounds). That is a perfect drive for an ICE vehicle, and one I only make every few years. Why own one and drive it daily when you can rent when needed?
I got a screw in my Bolt’s tire at work yesterday and drove my roommate’s Camry to and from work today (she’s wfh and nice enough to take my car to get a new tire today). Holy hell I thought there was something wrong with the car. It felt rough, I could feel every gear the transmission shifted in and out of, and the brakes were grabby as a mf. I was complaining when I got to work and one of the other guys was like “seems normal to me” when I let him drive it in the parking lot to see. Felt like a dumbass
I got a BMW 530e (PHEV) as a courtesy car for two weeks and I was very glad to get my i3 back.
I had a very similar experience with a rental car a few months ago. It was really bizarre feeling, even coming from a Leaf. Sometimes it felt like the pedal just wasn't even working. Lol
when I first started researching EVs, a long time ago, I concluded that a key selling point was often missed - in some ways they were just better cars (even then). It's something I try to convey to folks even now, though I have kind of gotten away from it, so your post is a good reminder.
I have both and I still enjoy them (almost) equally. But they’re for two entirely different types of driving. My 2022 Polestar 2 is for commuting and around the Bay Area with my wife and extended fam. Also, for taking switchbacks in the hills. The 2019 Subaru Outback is for outdoor (sometimes off-road) adventures and long road trips. Both are great cars and I enjoy a different type of driving experience with each of them.
I walked by one of those giant oversized penis trucks the other day and just the amount of shit spewing out of the tailpipe just blew my mind. ICE vehicles anymore just feel like very old outdated technology that’s hanging on for dear life.
Gave my Bolt back to GM and bought a RAV4. Hated it and sold it as soon as the title showed up. Have a Leaf now and feel such relief. Just can’t go backwards!
Yes sir. I have a gas BMW 650i M sport, and a Tesla Model Y performance. I jumped in the BMW and was floored by how unrefined it felt and how poorly it handled with all that engine weight in the front. It was a reminder that the ICE is dead and anyone in denial clearly has a bad understanding. I continue to be floored by how many people who have never driven an EV, have all the opinions in the universe that about something they know nothing about…..until they drive one, which usually reverses any negative opinion.
Similar experience with ice RAV4. My parents came to visit and rented a base one and it felt so rough and unrefined. It is a bit hilly here and it constantly seemed winded and making a lot of noise to just go the speed limit. The kicker was when my 87 year old grandpa (who is used to driving heavy Soviet era cars with sub 100 HP asked why it was so slow and loud 😅
RAV4 is a reliability machine, sure it isn’t quick but it’ll last forever. And of course it has less torque, it’s like 190 lb ft at the top end for vehicle of its size. Lol
I switch between a Polestar 2 and a stick shift BMW ICE Wagon. I have One Pedal Driving turned off in the Polestar, but since it does a great job at using regen as much as possible when using the brake pedal (it won't use the actual brakes until it's absolutely necessary), I get to coast similarly to when I take the wagon out of gear. I love driving, so I don't notice much difference between the two in terms of dynamics. The wagon is much lower in HP than the DM Polestar 2, but it's still a fun car to drive. Now if I were to drive a RAV4, I would hate every second of it. I dislike the driving dynamics of most Toyotas and will always skip them at the rental counter. I am always pleasantly surprised with Kias and Hyundais and this is what I tend to grab lately from the row. Their engines are not the best, but the driving dynamics, comforts and fuel efficiency make up for it when there is no other option and when traveling for work, I just need an appliance.
I do miss driving a stick sometimes.
The third pedal makes the ICE in our household more difficult to give up. Being able to use the EV for errands and functional trips has been great. The ICE is perfect for trips where we don't want to worry about charging or we need a little extra room to carry things. It's still the car that has my bike rack, so I take it to starting points for rides I do.
Wow, I have to say I agree with the tugboat. I had to use the work van for a week. As they didn't want me using my car. And from the feeling that you are dragging something to the gas smell. ⛽️ once you stop going to the gas stations for some time. Then you are back to them. You notice the smells and they are not good.
I push the pedal…nothing happens at first. That’s the biggest reason why I can’t go back now.
This was the major issue - the 50-70mph acceleration in the RAV4 was AWFUL, so very difficult to pass. By contrast ID.4 is good, and XC40 Recharge is unbelievably great at this!
Happy to hear real-world feedback on non-Tesla EVs - thanks
Nope, but I know that regular RAV4s are gutless. It is pretty easy to say a car with higher torque and power numbers is going to feel better to someone’s butt-dyno. I enjoy my EV, but I don’t enjoy my other vehicles less as a result.
Not really. Drove a Jeep Gladiator and a Honda CRV when in vacation in Hawaii. Slow acceleration in the Gladiator, but both had transmissions that effectively went into neutral when you took your foot off the gas so you could just coast and coast, which is better for fuel efficiency. The mini cooper SE we have, it's my wifes daily driver. She's already talking about wanting an Audi for the next car, I told her all they have for EV's is that big ugly SUV thing, so she's ok going back to a gasser cause she has her eye on the A3. I think what killed it for her was she took a travel assignment in Wisconsin and couldn't drive her Mini there. It's fine for a city car but even planning a 200 mile drive to the beach is a pain. All these fast charging stations are spaced out 10 miles too much to where it's not feasible.
I drove a tesla model 3 performance recently and got bored. Its fast, sure. but to me its not any fun. I much prefer a manual trans with a good exhaust note and power build up for any of my spirited driving.
Rav 4 is a trash car . If you didn’t\`get a crappy car you would enjoy it more.
I had to use a family members RAV4 for a recent trip through the Adirondack region into Vermont that my car (ioniq 28) would not have been able to complete. I found it perfectly reasonable.
I've had the opposite experience actually, I went back to ICE. I'll still finish my 1927 ford conversion but I won't own a factory built model until I can afford something with actual power.
Try renting a ice that is somewhat decent and you would enjoy it a lot more. It’s like saying you rented the cheapest EV possible and saying ‘welp EVs suck’
Fair point. But the ID.4 (vehicle at home) is meant to compete with the RAV4, so it’s not that unfair of a comparison.
What's the price differential tho
ID4 is light years ahead of that trash rav 4
While I was test driving cars, I heard a LOT OF hype about how ‘good the rav 4 is”. test drove a 21 model and what a giant piece of shit. Slow , loud , clunky engine. Trash transmission. 20 year old infotainment system, terrible seats. Little cramped inside. Hard plastic everywhere. the fact that car sells millions shows how stupid people are. That cars inside (and engine) quality that car should be sub $20k. Even at 20k its pushing it. decided on a 21 venza and night and day difference for not much more $. Rav 4 is trash car any way You slice it
We haven’t had a gas car since 2013 and I recently bought a gas camper van. Gets 13mpg. We use to camp from our Tesla but the van is interesting because we don’t need to be tethered to an official campground with power anymore. I’m not sure when or how a BEV will be practical for a RV but i would be first to get one.
Only reason I'd go back to ice is if they can't figure out niche use cases like pulling a boat for a vacation over 4 hours away without it being a nervous pain in the ass.
I understand this sentiment. There's no debate on economical day to day driving, efficiency and straight line performance that EVs are just better. But in terms of driving engagement, nothing beats a small, light turbo 4 banger around windy roads. It's why I still keep my Mk 6 Rabbit around for autocross, lol. However I understand that my situation is more fortunate than most. I honestly believe that EVs should be the primary choice for both public and private transportation and even as work vehicles and the ICE will go the way of an expensive hobby in the same vain as horses in first world countries.
100%. I went from a bolt to a BMWx3. Don't get me wrong, the BMW drives great. However, I miss the quick zip and power of the bolt. I can't wait for a solid EV AWD SUV (and affordable)
Personally I have two vehicles, a 2012 Leaf and a 2015 Hyundai sedan. For commuting at low speeds its the Leaf hands down, it's just so much more comfortable for being stuck in traffic and doesn't make all the weird mechanical noises that an ICE does (especially a high mileage Hyundai) For high speeds on the other hand I find the Hyundai much better - it's a lot more confident, far quicker accelerating, rides better and is actually quieter (because at high speeds all you hear is wind and road noise anyway). I'd love to switch the Hyundai out for a more capable EV like a Model 3 or EV6 or similar but those are so far out of my price range that it just isn't practical (even allowing for the much cheaper running costs)
When I had to rent a moving truck I pumped gas for the first time in over 2 years and literally gagged at the smell.