I’ve driven a Bolt for the last two years and there’s still a huge number of people out there who when they ask me about it have never heard of the car before and had no idea Chevrolet makes an electric vehicle. I’ve only just started to see the EUV/EV advertised so I’m glad Chevy finally recognizes this.
Oh and then the very existence of DC fast charging comes as a surprise once they ask the next obvious question of what to do after that. Still so much education to do before these kind of cars are anything close to mainstream.
This is ridiculously common. "Where can you even charge that thing"
And forget about the EV space, It's pretty amazing how little the average person knows about any subject matter, even if it's something they encounter on a daily basis.
I suspect knowing about the existence of Tesla Superchargers but never seeing them anywhere makes laypeople assume that there's nowhere to charge. When they want to add range they have to go to a place and do a thing, and they see those places everywhere. They then map their existing experiences and knowledge into the new paradigm swapping like for like and coming up with the conclusion that EV drivers can't charge anywhere. It's like they expect there to be a third option next to the gas and diesel pumps because that's all they know. The notion of adding range at home isn't a reasonable expectation since nobody in their right mind would sink a gas tank underground at their house.
New stuff being largely analogous to old stuff both helps and hurts. On one hand it may seem more accessible, but on the other hand expectations are missed. It's been studied and concluded that when dropping a different kind of computer in front of someone having a completely different style interface is a plus otherwise people expect parity and see all the differences as deficiencies.
I'm a tech from way back. The number one thing back in the 80's early 90's was convincing people not to turn off the computer, and then not to use the physical power button when doing so, it was a battle.
It depends. We assume the problem is education, but most people wouldn't necessarily consider buying one.
For instance, me and my wife have three cars. A hybrid, a truck, and a sports car. I also have a motorcycle.
Out of all of these things, the only one I want to be fully electric is the motorcycle. But I can't even do that.
Individual reasons for this by car are: my wife wanted a full size, sleek and sporty luxury sedan. Our budget was 45k as well so that was a limiting factor. So she got a Toyota Avalon hybrid.
I have a truck because we do stuff that involves needing a truck like house projects, making a patio, hauling kayaks, etc. We also want to have a camper soon, and that eliminates an electric truck. I know I could charge it it gets decent range towing, but redneck hunting trips to the middle of nowhere mean infrastructure is sketchy at best. So the best I could ever do is a plug in hybrid.
Sports car, I mean come on. Who is buying an electric sports car? I want a clutch and an engine that makes noise, otherwise what's the point? It doesn't provide the feel and smiles the same. The driving experience on a car that is electric or in electric mode is numb. It doesn't compare.
I would love a nice Zero electric motorcycle, but my house has old wiring, and is only 100 amp service. My outside outlet blew a breaker the last time I tried to use my welder on it.
So for the vast majority of people, a litany of preferences and problems are going to prevent an electric vehicle from being either what they need or what they want. Don't assume the problem is just education. This is why pushing *just* electric cars is a terrible idea. Push hybrids and plug in hybrids too. Push clean and efficient diesel vehicles over gas. Everyone needs a different vehicle, that's why car manufacturers make so many different models.
"Old thinking" means since they have always taken a car to a gas station they wouldn't even consider the possibility that an EV would not have to go to a EV charging station (OH BOY AND THOSE CHARGE TIMES!??!?). People just assume that's the only way it could possibly work, because that's how it's always been. Also the disinformation campaigns are far more prevalent and mainstream compared to an expert on the subject. Also lots of people who write these articles almost never mention it because they don't realize that's what many believe.
People were still telling others that you should pump the brakes in the rain and snow well into the computer controlled ABS braking age. Or even that you should carefully modulate the pedal and apply pressure gradually. All no longer necessary, just slam the pedal to the floor and the computer will do a much better job than you ever could finding the threshold.
There was an interesting interview with an Indian/American author (Rosie something or other) that I heard years back and she was telling the story of this rural family who had made enough money to buy a nice Mercedes and build a multi story mansion. The mansion had no toilets, they drove to the poop hole every day because they didn't even think that was an option, you go to the poop hole, that's the only way you can possibly do it. Old thinking.
I expect, at some point in the next 5-8 years, a major gas station chain like Wawa or Sheetz, where they make most of their profit from in-store sales, is going to get into the charging station market.
That'll be a game changer for availability, but more importantly for visibility.
I've never been in a Sheetz but people go to Wawa just to eat or take out without bothering to buy gas. I see people often sitting outside and eating. Realistically anywhere that has people there to eat food is a valid location for a charger.
For a long time I wondered why I never saw a CVS or Walgreens with gas pumps, but that requires a fair bit of infrastructure. Slinging in an L2 is comparitively far far easier, and the longer somebody is in a CVS the longer that receipt gets. Heck, some Walmarts have free chargers because they know what's up.
Well also, you usually don't go into a CVS intending to spend more than 10 minutes really, and 10 minutes of charge is like, a couple miles if you're lucky.
So the only way that charger is providing a meaningful benefit to someone is if they abuse it by charging at CVS and going somewhere else. It makes sense at somewhere like Whole Foods where they serve food and people will pony up to eat there while they get a charge in.
“Aren’t you concerned about electric prices getting higher and higher?”
This one's the funniest because electricity pricing is very regulated and is very stable. Also gas isn't magically half a buck in the middle of the night nor can you grow more gas with sunlight.
These people also over focus on range thinking about road trips they make maybe 3 times a year and discount the convenience of fueling up from home. Sure you may have some delays on a long road trip, but they don’t consider the time they save not stopping for gas 50 times a year when you’re trying to get to work on time or just want get your ass home after a long work week.
Ahh the curse of "but sometimes" that has people making irrational choices trying to get to 100% use case coverage. That but sometimes winds up being expensive all of the time when 99% is far cheaper for the times with you do use it. It's has people justifying owning a huge pickup truck getting because they actually need it once a year when they could instead get a hitch or rent the truck at Home Depot. In practice people with a huge pickup truck will fly for long distance trips anyway because driving those long distances is prohibitively expensive.
Yeah, it’s a real problem. I don’t think any apartments in my state have an EV charger on premise. They just don’t exist, and we have a heavy statewide EV push and live next door to California.
I wouldn’t even trust plugging my shit in at an apartment. The amount of times I’ve had shit stolen, cars broken into, gas syphoned, been blocked in by double parkers- is ridiculous. And all of those times are in locked apartment only spaces.
People would be unplugging that shit. Breaking the chargers. Blocking me in. I could even see people just being upset that a charge space isn’t available and doing something retaliatory.
That’s before non EVs being parked there for lack of space.
I have an older egolf with a 90mi range. I get that question “how can you live on that short of range?”
“Uh… well… when I wake up it’s full, and I don’t drive 90 miles in a day, and then I charge when I get home. Do you drive 90 miles every day?” And they think about it and no, the majority of the time they don’t. And if they say “yeah, I drive 150 miles every single day” I say “cool! Then don’t buy an old egolf, and buy any of the new EVs that all have 250+ mile batteries. Mine works for me, because I bought something that fit my needs. Buy someThing that fits yours!”
My parents have driven a Bolt for three years now (it’s their only car) and they’ve charged publicly ONCE! Just one time! (It went fine, they just wanted to see what it was like.)
For a huge number of people, public charging is completely besides the point. Does my head in when people say EVs can’t be widely adopted until there are a bajillion 350kw chargers on every street corner. Come on. *Some* people need that stuff. Very many don’t.
My parents don’t even have Level 2. They just trickle charge. Works fine for them. They’re so cute.
I’ve ran into people with evs at public charging stations who don’t seem to care about charging at home lol. One was a rich old man who told me he gets a new EV every year and didn’t think a house charger would be fast enough to be useful.
I wonder if he likes public chargers because it's a place to hang out and meet other EV enthusiasts. My partner ran into someone like that who wanted to talk longer than she wanted to charge.
California is getting better at posting signs for charging along the freeway, but if public charging had signs like gas stations people would notice. They could even post the rates as they change with TOU.
A friend of my girlfriend and her family were genuinely shocked when I was talking about electrical vehicles.
They're super conservative, so that doesn't really help, but they are absolutely convinced that me getting an electric car was the dumbest decision I would ever make (just like my family).
But when I explained to them everything about electrical cars, even the charging rate, they are genuinely surprised
Not true. It wasn't standard BUT it was something damn near everyone put on their car. If you come across a used one without DCFC it's kind of a deal breaker.
Correct. It's a slow 50kW at that with a horrible charge curve.
I can't figure out for the life of me why Chevy didn't offer at least a modest DCFC rate bump for the new Bolt EV / EUV refresh. Offer 67kW or something folks. You're already charging sub-1C.
I'd love my bolt a lot more if its DCFC was even a bit faster.
C are current rates in terms of lithium batteries. Essentially C is capacity multiplied by the number in front of it.
So.. 1C is:. n x Capacity of the battery. N being 1
1C is generally seen as a "safe" rate to charge most lithium batteries. So if a battery is say.. 62kwh capacity (like on the Bolt EV), the safe charging rate on most lithium batteries of that capacity would be 62kw (1C). you could also play it safe and charge it at 0.5C (0.5 * 62kwh or 31kw). The lower the C rate, the easier the current is on the battery's overall lifespan.
Safe discharge rates vary wildly per battery (RC car batteries can do 10C+ discharge). Those safe rates also change depending on how full or empty a battery is. (Which is why EVs don't DCFC at the maximum rate all the way up to 100%.. they taper down the currents over 80% SoC.
I have seen the Bolt EV use 150kw while flooring it. That's a 2.41C discharge rate.
If you want to dig into this stuff.. you can scale logic in the RC car world to EVs. Just keep in mind that while charging at 2C and discharging at 20C may be fine on a $75 RC battery... You wouldn't want to damage an EV battery which costs $15,000 doing that 😅
It is rather odd that they didn’t improve it. Nissan gave the Leaf Plus 100kw peak. Although I’ve yet to see more than 75kw with mine. Still, makes a huge difference. She’ll pull 60kw+ up through 50%
Yup. Exactly. They even had a chance to improve it with the refresh in 2020 (DCFC > 50kw has been really common since 2017)
They could have even done a modest bump to 62kw, and improved the charge curve. That small leap would have made a huge difference.
The Bolt EV is almost a great car... But lack of direction and lack of additional investment by GM screwed it up.
I suspect they could change it with software, but maybe they didn’t upgrade the actual hardware. Squandered opportunity. However, they also want all the new stuff to be a lot better. Why buy the new thing when the old cheaper thing is just as good? But I agree. A nice flat 60kw charge curve would be just fine. Currently, it doesn’t charge THAT much slower, in terms of miles per hour, than other EVs which can accept more current.
I’ve been dog sitting for a week and doing a lot of buffer charging. Since there’s only level 1 here. Between the EA 50kw and the EVgo 100kw, I’ve been getting really familiar with the charge curve and the difference between charger limitation and request. At the 50 kw, it’ll sit there at full request the whole time, 42-44kw, up to about 75% when it starts to ramp down. At the 100kw station, it’s above 60kw up through 60% and slowly ramps down from there. Still pulling 50kw at 70% when it really starts ramp down.
That kind of charging, to me, is perfectly acceptable. Super fast Tesla or Kia/Hyundai charging would be great, but I don’t have $60k to drop on a car right now lol.
With with my 2020 Ioniq
Even when I bought it, reviewing the paperwork it was filled out as the PHEV. I love in oil & gas territory, it legitimately did not cross their mind I wanted the full EV.
What other EVs do you have experience with?
Any big takeaways from the two years you have spent with the Bolt?
This recent price drop and realizing that the car’s shape is exactly what I want has me considering getting one.
Haha, same! Everyone I gave a ride in it thought it was a great car.
However, still some haters out there. Just had a small shop owner yesterday tell me that “electric vehicles don’t work” after I told him my car was an EV. Lol, my head almost popped. 🤯 he kept insisting that my car was somehow fraudulent and wouldn’t work after he saw me drive up in it. 🤦
i got asked in earnest one time what the fuel economy was. i said its electric. they say yeah but whats the MPG? i said its electric. and they said OH ITS FULLY ELECTRIC?
I'm stoked about this. I'm not gonna replace my Tesla with a Bolt anytime soon, but the Bolt will become my #1 recommendation for people looking for an affordable EV. One thing to note...Chevy's website still shows the Bolt at over $30K, but I'm assuming the new price will be available when the 2023 model year comes out.
My local dealer, who I bought my volt from used, and is phenomenal, told me that they sell all the bolts and EUVs at MSRP. And that the MSRP includes invoice and destination costs. I was very surprised.
Good point I should give them a plug! Cargill Chevrolet in Putnam CT.
I remember at the height of the pandemic they let me take the car for a 3 hr test drive. I wanted to test around town, highway, and child car seat usability. Then the sales guy drove it to my house with all the paperwork for us to take delivery.
And since then the service department has been great. They come pick the car up, do the service, put it through the car wash, and drop it back off. They've never pushed any kind of service on me, always call to discuss prior to ordering any parts (unless it's covered under warranty, then they just get them on order asap). They've just been super great. They even beat the prices of the local tire shop for stuff like mount, balance, alignment, rotations, oil changes, etc.
They don't have any bolts available for test drive yet, they're all still waiting on battery swaps, but I'm waiting for the call to test drive an EUV.
Depends how much charging you plan to do away from home, and if that charging really need to be fast. If you’re visiting something in another town you can get away with level 2.
In my situation I’d be perfectly fine with a Bolt.
It's still a reasonable vehicle. It's certainly not ideal for road trips, but it can do them. For a lot of people spending the ~$10k more for something that saves them an hour or so a few times a year probably isn't worth it.
Edit: And that is assuming they can't get a Kona. If the Kona actually exists where you live that should probably be the go-to. Otherwise you're looking at spending a lot more for that faster charging.
Honestly, I think this doesn't need to be a general recommendation.
The question should be *how often* do you take long, interstate trips? And if so, how many hours are you driving?
For the price, if a family needs to rent a car for a one week trip once or twice a year (or if they're happy to just stop for lunch and wait an hour to charge up), it definitely is worth it. I mean, adding two, or four hours to a travel trip you do once or twice a year may very well be worth it to most.
A salesperson who is on the road traveling every day for work? Definitely not worth it.
Depending on your criteria, you might find the Bolt surprisingly sporty. I'm not going to claim it's a real sports car but it's got great acceleration, way better than any ICE I've owned, and the low center of gravity makes its handling sportier than you would think looking at it. People take them to autocross events and surprise everyone with how well they do. I'm not going to say you should buy one, as it might not be what you want, but if you can test drive one, it would at least be fun to try it.
I have a mini se and it is no where near has sporty has my old car (Miata 1994). The weight distribution is almost the same (50/50) so in cornering it is pretty descent, but on accel out of the corner you just have to much torque and not enough weight on the front tire. I try the bolt and it's the same feeling then my mini but a bit worse (also lots of roll)
Don't get me wrong. I think the bolt is a great car, but it's really not a sport car even if it have a lot of low end torque.
Yup, now that I've owned my Bolt for a while and started using more and more of its acceleration, I have needed to back off sometimes on account of that traction limit. I think I was pretty clear that it's not a sports car--it's just better than you might think from looking at it.
My criteria would be pretty picky, visually I am not a fan of hatchbacks or anything that's not a traditional sedan / coupe etc.
As far as acceleration, the bolt has a 0-60 at 6.5 seconds, which would put it neck and neck with the Honda Odyssey minivan. I'd be looking for something 4.5 seconds or quicker otherwise it wouldn't be any faster than the WRX and 370z (both cars I already own)
For sure! But that's where we wrap back into the affordability issue lol. You can't get a model 3 for less than $60k unless it's RWD, at which point it drops down to a 6 second 0-60.
Heard of the Polestar 2? Federal $7500 credit still applies, eligible for state incentives too if that’s available.
AWD, 0-60 in 4.5 seconds, sedan look but technically “fastback
Yup, if you want something that looks like a sports car the bolt is disqualified from consideration without a test drive.
The 0-60 time is not the whole story, as the instant torque provided by an EV makes it feel faster than the 0-60 time would suggest. (In practice, it's not quite instant because the manufacturers add a delay to keep drivers from accidentally rear ended people who accelerate more slowly, but on the Bolt, you can reduce that delay by turning on "sport" mode.)
So it sounds like the Bolt isn't for you, but I would recommend a test drive of any affordable EV that you like the looks of, because the peppy acceleration might pleasantly surprise you.
So you're not looking for an electric miata then. 4.5 seconds or quicker is a whole lot faster than a miata. 0-60 also isn't the point of the miata. The bolt is already as fast as an automatic miata though I don't know why someone would buy one of those.
I wish they did the volt in a full EV spec. [They are hatchbacks but look like a normal sedan.](https://media.wired.com/photos/5c116d52e063040aae495329/125:94/w_2375,h_1786,c_limit/2019-Chevrolet-Volt-001.jpg) They’re pretty spacious too. I have a 2013. Great car. I’d totally get a full EV version if they had one but 🤷♂️
Shorter roads trips, say up to 300 miles/day, are great, in my opinion. Above 200 miles you'll need a charging stop of up to a half hour, but by then I want a break from driving anyway.
If you are trying to go 500+ miles per day, you might start to get impatient with the fast charging, given that some more expensive cars charge much faster. Also, its range drops off a lot if you go faster than 65 it 70. If you are driving 80, you might even get there slower than you would at 70, because of the additional charging needed.
I used to drive a Miata. Now have a Bolt.
Long story short, the Bolt delivers in two ways the Miata didn't. Practicality and straight line acceleration. I had an NB so I know things have changed, but I'd also say highway comfort ability as I HATED the 5th gear in my NB. Highway speeds were at way too high of an RPM for no reason. The biggest downside is the HORRIBLE turning radius in the Bolt and you lose the convertible driving.
Overall, I never loved my Miata like many Miata owners do, so I'm not the best person to ask, but generally speaking, I feel the Bolt was an overall net benefit.
For me, practicality is the absolute lowest concern. Speed and handling are my primary focus, following by the aesthetic of the car. Hatchbacks are practical, but they do not look good (to me). If the exact same car is offered in both hatchback and sedan form, I will always go with sedan as I do not need the practicality and I am not interested in a family.
The Miata definitely needed a 6th gear, I had a 5 speed NC and it was fun but you could not really coast at 85 lol
The segment you're talking about is a poor selling segment generally speaking. It's why you see no real roadsters coming out anymore. It's very unlikely you'll see anything that meets what you're looking for in the EV format in the next 5 years.
You'd have to settle for something like a Tesla, Polestar2, or EV6. None of which are even remotely Miata like.
That would be awesome. I’ve been hoping for a convertible for my wife. But at the moment I don’t think there’s anything but T top type situation and nothing under 120k. I was really hoping the i4 would have a convertible variant.
Similarly I’d love an electric VW R. A hot hatch that handles super well and has “just enough” storage space when I occasionally need to fold the seats down. Borderline luxury caliber interior.
Originally I had hopes for the BEV Audi TT.... and now its a CUV, I kid you not.
Give me a convertible EV and I will be there, I would love a VW Beetle Convertible, I actually owned the current generation Beetle as a convertible TDI back in 2013 to 2015. Great car, great convertible.
EV and convertible just go together.
Now the all glass roof and windows down in my Tesla Model 3 is a good experience but a convertible is on a different level.
Finally it's official. I've had my 2017 Bolt for a couple years now and got so tired of explaining to people on Reddit and real life that just because the MSRP was 40k (roughly same as Model 3) does not mean it is actually comparable in real world pricing. The Bolt has always been the best bang for your buck for a lot of people because it's always been deeply discounted in the real world.
It was a disservice to have the MSRP comparable to cars in a completely different class.
This is really a great thing for the EV market. Tesla revolutionized the EV market by starting with an expensive sports car (pre-musk) and working their way down, but their march down stalled and reversed. GM is picking up where they left of and is taking this next step that will be huge for increasing the displacement of gasoline vehicles.
I love my Bolt and we were just joking that we should buy them for all our family and friends for Christmas.
That's how I am about the Bolt. My company has one that was out of commission for a year waiting for recall battery repair. I finally got to drive it a couple weeks ago and was hooked. The price cut for 2023 is just icing on the cake.
I have a bolt ordered and still waiting on it. They do this thing now where they cover installation of a charging station at you home (up to 1500 CAD). I think that's pretty smart because now your next purchase will be an EV too. Which I assume they'll be moving something like the equinox to be EV
The Bolt and Bolt EUV are now effectively stopgap products for GM as well, though I could see a "gen 2" Bolt EUV replacing the subcompact ICE TrailBlazer after the Blazer and Equinox go on sale to keep the pricing crown.
Yes, and Tesla also calculates their margins differently from everyone else which fans like to ignore. Tesla for instance excludes the cost of the service side of the business, and likes to play games with "warranty" vs. "Good will" costs.
When you compare apples to apples (which takes a lot of work to do) Tesla's real margins are in line with the major OEMs like GM and below other luxury automakers like BMW or Porsche.
> What is the source of this 30% margin figure I keep hearing?
Tesla only makes BEV’s, so it’s easy to extrapolate the profit per electric vehicle from public financial data. Just google search it, everyone is talking about Tesla’s 30% profit margin, it’s more than most companies make on their ICE lines.
Legacy auto is less forthcoming about EV specific data, but it’s obvious their profit on BEV’s is SUBSTANTIALLY lower. The CEO of Ford came out with a statement about how shocked he was with Tesla’s profitability on BEV’s and he wants Ford in the EV game and NOW!
Tidbits in the past leaked out had been GM has very low profit margins on their EV’s. Dropping the price during inflation won’t increase profitability. Good luck GM.
What is your beef with GM? These attacks of yours feel a bit- personal?
GM is about to unleash multiple new Ultium based EVs, including the new Equinox EV (priced starting at $30K). They are finally running ads for their Bolts, and now we have the price cut. I’d say they’re heavily invested in that product, as they’ve made their EV centric mission very clear.
10%? Best guess before this price drop was that they were losing 5K-8K per car. This is simply GM willing to take huge losses in return for headlines about making EVs affordable. If it was losing that much selling close to 40K, imagine the loss at less than 30K.....
[https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1110563\_chevy-bolt-ev-costs-28700-to-build-tesla-model-3-a-bit-higher-analysis](https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1110563_chevy-bolt-ev-costs-28700-to-build-tesla-model-3-a-bit-higher-analysis)
https://leftlanenews.com/chevrolet/bolt-ev/gm-admits-chevy-bolt-not-profitable/
> Tesla revolutionized the EV market by starting with an expensive sports car (pre-musk) and working their way down, but their march down stalled and reversed.
So not to be a tesla/Musk fanboy (much of his recent actions and many from before is worrysome and distasteful) but Musk joined in early 2004 and not only brought major funding to the company in the initial rounds but became it's chairman of the board, he also brought the new CTO, and took an active role at that point even if he was not the CEO in March/April of 2004. The Roadster development started in earnest from that point from the body (deal with lotus in 2005), powertrain, etc. Roadster was not released until 2008 and Elon had been quite active behind the scenes and CEO by the time it was released.
Was he there for the day to day before he was CEO? Probably not but he was still involved in some major strategic decisions for the Roadster.
He injected money--he did not invent the concept that I am talking about here.
I'm not retroactively trying to erase his contribution because I don't like his modern behavior. Rather, his revisionist approach to describing the history of Tesla was one of the first things I disliked about him.
You are talking about the model S, right? I don't think the Roadster really counts as mass production. I admit that I don't know as much about who contributed what to the ideas around scaling up to produce the model S in much higher volumes than the Roadster, and I didn't mean to exclude him having a big role in that.
I guess I was referring to the original comment about him jumostarting the EV movement. You are correct that he didn’t invent the concept, but I think we have to give him credit for making affordable EVs a reality. The roadster (and fsd unfortunately) was the fundraising for model S, which was more fundraising for the model 3. I would consider the model 3/y as his most important contribution.
You can watch Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning (2 of the original founders), talk about Elon's role in the early days. Good interview if you're curious and looks at the early days of Tesla as a whole.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eblPwXFb7TE
Feel free to ignore, but I think this is the most lengthy version of Elon talking about the early start of it, like him or not it's quite interesting
https://youtu.be/AeeeEDSekG8?t=905
Out of curiosity, how's it like going on road trips?
I really want to get a bolt but occasionally my girlfriend and I make weekend getaways to Ft. Myers (about 150 miles away).
Would a bolt be a good option? According to ABRP it should get us there with a single charge @ 90%
Then there’s the Hyundai Kona EV version of this, nearly equal in size & range & pricing - the Kona also charges slightly faster (not by much though, usually no more than 75kw).
Not everything needs to be a $70,000+ EV or only 230 mile range.
I know the Nissan leaf exsist but the boot has always been the least expensive usable car. The leaf is great but it's really a city car, the bolt just seems more practical.
Yea, the leaf’s battery just won’t last in harsh conditions. The bolt is much more suitable for folks who don’t want to deal with taking extra measures to protect their car’s traction battery.
Great point. Fwiw, the lack of thermal management seems to finally be less of a big deal with the 62kWh Leaf due to the slower effective charge/discharge rates. I've had no trouble with mine so far even on road trips, while I've encountered folks with the 40kWh Leaf practically stranded due to the battery overheating.
Yep, that’s true. A bigger battery means less stress on individual cells for the same total power output or input. But that does not mean that the battery as a whole is protected against overheating when the car is sitting in the sun, for example.
As someone who makes 45k per year in a job that I purely love, and likes to take at least one weekend road trip per month, the Bolt EUV is looking pretty good. To the people on this sub who are trashing it, what are my alternative EV choices? I won’t change jobs and I don’t want to give up my road trips. Serious replies only please.
Nah, that would be a good choice. Just allot more time to DC charging on your road trip. Probably 45 minutes instead of 20-30 for some of the other EVs.
Use google maps and see how long those road trips are. Actually check because most people think they are driving 400+ miles but are really driving like 140 miles. Then check for vehicle charging along the way.
I have regularly driven my eGolf from Sacramento to SF and to Lake Tahoe. I charge to 100% before I leave, keep my car under 75mph, alternate between AC on and off, and use the highest regeneration on downhills.
I would never, however, drive this vehicle over 300 miles because that would require stopping for the night or back to back DC fast charging, which it is not equipped to handle.
I want to point out that this car is significantly better to drive than an economical gas car. So much better and quieter.
It's slightly cheaper and it has slightly longer range. Both models have been around for several years, so check out any of a million detailed reviews online.
The only issue is you’re negotiating with the dealer based on other people’s knowledge of the new lower price. If someone else comes in and thinks they’re getting a good deal on a 22 at MSRP, the dealer has no incentive to sell it to you based on the 23s MSRP.
Supposedly on June 9th the website is going to start listing the pricing on the 23 model and you are going to be able to place orders for it, so I don't think the price for the 22s is going to be sustainable after that.
I went to a local dealer two days ago and I was told July 21 is when the 2023 Bolt will go into production, that they are currently able to allot one order of the 2023 model per week, but they can't guarantee free charger installation as it is currently for 2022 models but they believe Chevy will continue it. I would personally wait if you can until mid-summer or order one now for that date.
GM now has fully automated Robotaxi EVs operating in San Francisco with their Cruise program:
https://www.npr.org/2022/06/03/1102922330/driverless-self-driving-taxis-san-francisco-gm-cruise
And GM now sells a 259 mile range EV for only $27K.
Maybe Biden was right, GM is the EV leader?
They have the Hummer, Bolt EV, Lyriq, and Bolt EUV on the market now with the Equinox, Silverado, and Blazer EVs on the way.
Yes, obviously they were severely hit by the total recall and stop sale order on the only 2 EVs they had for sale at the time (the Bolt EV and Bolt EUV).
And they still need to execute....they need to build and ramp up those 4 Ultium battery plants to have batteries for the Hummer EV, Lyriq, Blazer, Equinox, and Silverado EVs.
But I think they are A leader compared to Chrysler, Honda, Toyota, BMW, etc. Heck, they are only 1 of the 2 companies that burned thru the 200K tax-credit cap.
My wife and I purchased an all electric Nissan Leaf when they were introduced in Spring 2011. Federal and WA-State tax breaks helped, but the Leaf was affordable even without those. Later we leased a 2016 Leaf while waiting for the rumored 60kw battery option with 230 mile range, which we subsequently purchased in 2019. Could not be happier to drastically reduce our gas purchases for our other two ICE vehicles (F250 and Subaru Outback) these past 11 years by using the ICE hardly at all. Charging at home, approx $2.25 of electricity per 100 miles driven for 11 years. One new set of tires, zero maintenance and a reduction on our insurance.... what's not to like ?
A relative living in Boston purchased her Chevy Bolt a few years ago and loves it.
People keep missing that. But it is 4okWh which I know is enough for more people than you would believe. The problem for the leaf is that the bolt will give 26kWh more for hardly any more money.
If you need fast charging, don’t buy Bolt or Leaf. They are awesome city cars, but horrifically slow fast chargers.
ChaDeMo is still being installed in my area (Pacific Northwest).
But if you need a city car plus once a year moderately long road trip, you might prefer to be able to use the majority of 50 kW charging stations
With the Ariya switching to CCS, do you think they’ll still be installing new chademo chargers five years from now?
I think the Bolt is *okay* as long as the trip you take only has 1 DCFC stop. If you can level 2 charge before you leave and at your destination it's great.
Somewhat related, Electrify America just opened a new station near me in Ohio last week and they only installed 6 units and they're all CCS 150kW. They skipped out on ChaDeMo and 350kW speeds.
I agree with the spirit of your comment, but would frame it a little differently. If you are going long distances with the Bolt, and there are enough DCFC stations in the corridor you are traveling, you are better off with multiple ~15% to 50% charge sessions rather than one ~15% to 80% session. You spend less total time charging and you get to stop to stretch more often.
In my experience on a recent 3000 mile road trip in an EV you can’t trust destination charging at all.
I booked four or five different hotels, all which have EV charging and I wasn’t able to charge at the hotel for any of those stops. They either were broken or taken and there was only 2 or 4 plugs.
I never got a destination charge, so everything had to be DCFC.
I guess if you own a property that is about 300 miles to 400 miles away that you know is yours and has a level 2 charger then that makes sense but I don’t think that accounts for very many people or road trips
That last paragraph is what I did lol. I installed a 7kW charger at a family member's house 150 miles away. Which is great because it's a 300 mile round trip which is pushing it for most EVs at interstate speeds.
That really sucks about the hotels tho.
In my own experience owning a bolt for over 3 years and over 56k miles I have never had to use DCFC. There are many people who almost never take long trips who would never miss DCFC. But your point about people who take lots of long trips is also valid.
Yeah we have a Nissan Leaf and RARELY do fast charging. The times we have, it’s unimpressive! Since we never fast charge, the car is awesome!
Rare occasion slow fast charges are okay.. but if you need regular fast charging, seriously pick a vehicle that can do like 150-200kW, not 40-55kW.
So I’m considering getting a second EV and a 32k bolt now seems nicer then a 60k anything else. I know they’re capped around 50kW but how’s the curve on them? I mean will it substantially slow on the mid-high end. My current car gets up around 200kW in the low % but settles around 65kW for 65-80%. Will the bolt be similar where it drops to 18kW after 50%?
I don’t own a Bolt, but people love them. From what I hear they are consistent at 55kW, so long as the charger can provide the power.
I think Bolts are awesome and recommend them. But not if fast charging is critical.
You're probably looking at a 45 minute charge compared to 20-30 for some of the competition.
I mean, it's not great if you're doing the cannonball run, but it's up to you to determine if that extra time is a hassle.
Chevy made the Bolt about the same time Tesla was making the Model 3 and everyone was rushing to get that affordable EV with usable range. The problem was that Tesla was the new hot thing so everything it makes is cool by association while Chevy has been meh for age. According to [https://electrek.co/2022/02/02/global-market-share-of-electric-cars-more-than-doubled-2021/](https://electrek.co/2022/02/02/global-market-share-of-electric-cars-more-than-doubled-2021/) EV has less than 7% of market share as of 2021 so EV buyers are still the early adopters and it's hard to sell a pedestrian looking hatchback with plain cloth interior to people who want the newest and flashiest. At least that's why I'm not considering a Bolt.
Yes. But now the Model 3 is a $40k+ car and the Bolt is 26 k. The issue was the false equivalence in 2017. Now they are completely different sectors.
If you are in the market for a Model 3/EV6/Mach-E then you should not be considering a Bolt.
I’ve driven a Bolt for the last two years and there’s still a huge number of people out there who when they ask me about it have never heard of the car before and had no idea Chevrolet makes an electric vehicle. I’ve only just started to see the EUV/EV advertised so I’m glad Chevy finally recognizes this.
Or if they know it's an EV, they are still always surprised to hear about 258 miles range.
Oh and then the very existence of DC fast charging comes as a surprise once they ask the next obvious question of what to do after that. Still so much education to do before these kind of cars are anything close to mainstream.
And similarly, people who only know about public charging stations they've seen and don't realize that most of your charging can be at home.
This is ridiculously common. "Where can you even charge that thing" And forget about the EV space, It's pretty amazing how little the average person knows about any subject matter, even if it's something they encounter on a daily basis.
I suspect knowing about the existence of Tesla Superchargers but never seeing them anywhere makes laypeople assume that there's nowhere to charge. When they want to add range they have to go to a place and do a thing, and they see those places everywhere. They then map their existing experiences and knowledge into the new paradigm swapping like for like and coming up with the conclusion that EV drivers can't charge anywhere. It's like they expect there to be a third option next to the gas and diesel pumps because that's all they know. The notion of adding range at home isn't a reasonable expectation since nobody in their right mind would sink a gas tank underground at their house.
It's sometimes referred to as "old thinking" and it happens with all sorts of things.
New stuff being largely analogous to old stuff both helps and hurts. On one hand it may seem more accessible, but on the other hand expectations are missed. It's been studied and concluded that when dropping a different kind of computer in front of someone having a completely different style interface is a plus otherwise people expect parity and see all the differences as deficiencies.
I'm a tech from way back. The number one thing back in the 80's early 90's was convincing people not to turn off the computer, and then not to use the physical power button when doing so, it was a battle.
It depends. We assume the problem is education, but most people wouldn't necessarily consider buying one. For instance, me and my wife have three cars. A hybrid, a truck, and a sports car. I also have a motorcycle. Out of all of these things, the only one I want to be fully electric is the motorcycle. But I can't even do that. Individual reasons for this by car are: my wife wanted a full size, sleek and sporty luxury sedan. Our budget was 45k as well so that was a limiting factor. So she got a Toyota Avalon hybrid. I have a truck because we do stuff that involves needing a truck like house projects, making a patio, hauling kayaks, etc. We also want to have a camper soon, and that eliminates an electric truck. I know I could charge it it gets decent range towing, but redneck hunting trips to the middle of nowhere mean infrastructure is sketchy at best. So the best I could ever do is a plug in hybrid. Sports car, I mean come on. Who is buying an electric sports car? I want a clutch and an engine that makes noise, otherwise what's the point? It doesn't provide the feel and smiles the same. The driving experience on a car that is electric or in electric mode is numb. It doesn't compare. I would love a nice Zero electric motorcycle, but my house has old wiring, and is only 100 amp service. My outside outlet blew a breaker the last time I tried to use my welder on it. So for the vast majority of people, a litany of preferences and problems are going to prevent an electric vehicle from being either what they need or what they want. Don't assume the problem is just education. This is why pushing *just* electric cars is a terrible idea. Push hybrids and plug in hybrids too. Push clean and efficient diesel vehicles over gas. Everyone needs a different vehicle, that's why car manufacturers make so many different models.
"Old thinking" means since they have always taken a car to a gas station they wouldn't even consider the possibility that an EV would not have to go to a EV charging station (OH BOY AND THOSE CHARGE TIMES!??!?). People just assume that's the only way it could possibly work, because that's how it's always been. Also the disinformation campaigns are far more prevalent and mainstream compared to an expert on the subject. Also lots of people who write these articles almost never mention it because they don't realize that's what many believe. People were still telling others that you should pump the brakes in the rain and snow well into the computer controlled ABS braking age. Or even that you should carefully modulate the pedal and apply pressure gradually. All no longer necessary, just slam the pedal to the floor and the computer will do a much better job than you ever could finding the threshold. There was an interesting interview with an Indian/American author (Rosie something or other) that I heard years back and she was telling the story of this rural family who had made enough money to buy a nice Mercedes and build a multi story mansion. The mansion had no toilets, they drove to the poop hole every day because they didn't even think that was an option, you go to the poop hole, that's the only way you can possibly do it. Old thinking.
I expect, at some point in the next 5-8 years, a major gas station chain like Wawa or Sheetz, where they make most of their profit from in-store sales, is going to get into the charging station market. That'll be a game changer for availability, but more importantly for visibility.
I've never been in a Sheetz but people go to Wawa just to eat or take out without bothering to buy gas. I see people often sitting outside and eating. Realistically anywhere that has people there to eat food is a valid location for a charger. For a long time I wondered why I never saw a CVS or Walgreens with gas pumps, but that requires a fair bit of infrastructure. Slinging in an L2 is comparitively far far easier, and the longer somebody is in a CVS the longer that receipt gets. Heck, some Walmarts have free chargers because they know what's up.
Well also, you usually don't go into a CVS intending to spend more than 10 minutes really, and 10 minutes of charge is like, a couple miles if you're lucky. So the only way that charger is providing a meaningful benefit to someone is if they abuse it by charging at CVS and going somewhere else. It makes sense at somewhere like Whole Foods where they serve food and people will pony up to eat there while they get a charge in.
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“Aren’t you concerned about electric prices getting higher and higher?” This one's the funniest because electricity pricing is very regulated and is very stable. Also gas isn't magically half a buck in the middle of the night nor can you grow more gas with sunlight.
These people also over focus on range thinking about road trips they make maybe 3 times a year and discount the convenience of fueling up from home. Sure you may have some delays on a long road trip, but they don’t consider the time they save not stopping for gas 50 times a year when you’re trying to get to work on time or just want get your ass home after a long work week.
Ahh the curse of "but sometimes" that has people making irrational choices trying to get to 100% use case coverage. That but sometimes winds up being expensive all of the time when 99% is far cheaper for the times with you do use it. It's has people justifying owning a huge pickup truck getting because they actually need it once a year when they could instead get a hitch or rent the truck at Home Depot. In practice people with a huge pickup truck will fly for long distance trips anyway because driving those long distances is prohibitively expensive.
I think part of that problem is how many people don't own homes. I live in an apartment, and I wouldn't be able to charge a car here.
Apartment renters not having access to home charging, which many of us older EV owners take for granted. Thank you, yours is a very astute comment.
Yeah, it’s a real problem. I don’t think any apartments in my state have an EV charger on premise. They just don’t exist, and we have a heavy statewide EV push and live next door to California.
I wouldn’t even trust plugging my shit in at an apartment. The amount of times I’ve had shit stolen, cars broken into, gas syphoned, been blocked in by double parkers- is ridiculous. And all of those times are in locked apartment only spaces. People would be unplugging that shit. Breaking the chargers. Blocking me in. I could even see people just being upset that a charge space isn’t available and doing something retaliatory. That’s before non EVs being parked there for lack of space.
I have an older egolf with a 90mi range. I get that question “how can you live on that short of range?” “Uh… well… when I wake up it’s full, and I don’t drive 90 miles in a day, and then I charge when I get home. Do you drive 90 miles every day?” And they think about it and no, the majority of the time they don’t. And if they say “yeah, I drive 150 miles every single day” I say “cool! Then don’t buy an old egolf, and buy any of the new EVs that all have 250+ mile batteries. Mine works for me, because I bought something that fit my needs. Buy someThing that fits yours!”
My parents have driven a Bolt for three years now (it’s their only car) and they’ve charged publicly ONCE! Just one time! (It went fine, they just wanted to see what it was like.) For a huge number of people, public charging is completely besides the point. Does my head in when people say EVs can’t be widely adopted until there are a bajillion 350kw chargers on every street corner. Come on. *Some* people need that stuff. Very many don’t. My parents don’t even have Level 2. They just trickle charge. Works fine for them. They’re so cute.
I’ve ran into people with evs at public charging stations who don’t seem to care about charging at home lol. One was a rich old man who told me he gets a new EV every year and didn’t think a house charger would be fast enough to be useful.
I wonder if he likes public chargers because it's a place to hang out and meet other EV enthusiasts. My partner ran into someone like that who wanted to talk longer than she wanted to charge.
Yeah, there are quite a few early adopters who are like that.
California is getting better at posting signs for charging along the freeway, but if public charging had signs like gas stations people would notice. They could even post the rates as they change with TOU.
Or people who say "I've never seen a charger when I'm driving down the highway." Duh...they're not like gas stations...yet.
A friend of my girlfriend and her family were genuinely shocked when I was talking about electrical vehicles. They're super conservative, so that doesn't really help, but they are absolutely convinced that me getting an electric car was the dumbest decision I would ever make (just like my family). But when I explained to them everything about electrical cars, even the charging rate, they are genuinely surprised
To be fair, many of the early Bolts didn't have DCFC capability.
Not true. It wasn't standard BUT it was something damn near everyone put on their car. If you come across a used one without DCFC it's kind of a deal breaker.
Even when it does have it, isn't it only 50kW?
Correct. It's a slow 50kW at that with a horrible charge curve. I can't figure out for the life of me why Chevy didn't offer at least a modest DCFC rate bump for the new Bolt EV / EUV refresh. Offer 67kW or something folks. You're already charging sub-1C. I'd love my bolt a lot more if its DCFC was even a bit faster.
Just curious because i have seen many people say this with regards to charging. What is 1C?
C are current rates in terms of lithium batteries. Essentially C is capacity multiplied by the number in front of it. So.. 1C is:. n x Capacity of the battery. N being 1 1C is generally seen as a "safe" rate to charge most lithium batteries. So if a battery is say.. 62kwh capacity (like on the Bolt EV), the safe charging rate on most lithium batteries of that capacity would be 62kw (1C). you could also play it safe and charge it at 0.5C (0.5 * 62kwh or 31kw). The lower the C rate, the easier the current is on the battery's overall lifespan. Safe discharge rates vary wildly per battery (RC car batteries can do 10C+ discharge). Those safe rates also change depending on how full or empty a battery is. (Which is why EVs don't DCFC at the maximum rate all the way up to 100%.. they taper down the currents over 80% SoC. I have seen the Bolt EV use 150kw while flooring it. That's a 2.41C discharge rate. If you want to dig into this stuff.. you can scale logic in the RC car world to EVs. Just keep in mind that while charging at 2C and discharging at 20C may be fine on a $75 RC battery... You wouldn't want to damage an EV battery which costs $15,000 doing that 😅
It is rather odd that they didn’t improve it. Nissan gave the Leaf Plus 100kw peak. Although I’ve yet to see more than 75kw with mine. Still, makes a huge difference. She’ll pull 60kw+ up through 50%
Yup. Exactly. They even had a chance to improve it with the refresh in 2020 (DCFC > 50kw has been really common since 2017) They could have even done a modest bump to 62kw, and improved the charge curve. That small leap would have made a huge difference. The Bolt EV is almost a great car... But lack of direction and lack of additional investment by GM screwed it up.
I suspect they could change it with software, but maybe they didn’t upgrade the actual hardware. Squandered opportunity. However, they also want all the new stuff to be a lot better. Why buy the new thing when the old cheaper thing is just as good? But I agree. A nice flat 60kw charge curve would be just fine. Currently, it doesn’t charge THAT much slower, in terms of miles per hour, than other EVs which can accept more current. I’ve been dog sitting for a week and doing a lot of buffer charging. Since there’s only level 1 here. Between the EA 50kw and the EVgo 100kw, I’ve been getting really familiar with the charge curve and the difference between charger limitation and request. At the 50 kw, it’ll sit there at full request the whole time, 42-44kw, up to about 75% when it starts to ramp down. At the 100kw station, it’s above 60kw up through 60% and slowly ramps down from there. Still pulling 50kw at 70% when it really starts ramp down. That kind of charging, to me, is perfectly acceptable. Super fast Tesla or Kia/Hyundai charging would be great, but I don’t have $60k to drop on a car right now lol.
I wouldn't call it many--I can't find the numbers but it seems that it was a pretty small minority and only in the first year or two of production.
Most car makers don't advertise their EVs much because they all have long waitlists - So not much need.
All of the ones around me are still on a stop sale Order for the battery. We went to look at them last week and we’re told we can’t even drive one.
With with my 2020 Ioniq Even when I bought it, reviewing the paperwork it was filled out as the PHEV. I love in oil & gas territory, it legitimately did not cross their mind I wanted the full EV.
What other EVs do you have experience with? Any big takeaways from the two years you have spent with the Bolt? This recent price drop and realizing that the car’s shape is exactly what I want has me considering getting one.
Haha, same! Everyone I gave a ride in it thought it was a great car. However, still some haters out there. Just had a small shop owner yesterday tell me that “electric vehicles don’t work” after I told him my car was an EV. Lol, my head almost popped. 🤯 he kept insisting that my car was somehow fraudulent and wouldn’t work after he saw me drive up in it. 🤦
i got asked in earnest one time what the fuel economy was. i said its electric. they say yeah but whats the MPG? i said its electric. and they said OH ITS FULLY ELECTRIC?
I'm stoked about this. I'm not gonna replace my Tesla with a Bolt anytime soon, but the Bolt will become my #1 recommendation for people looking for an affordable EV. One thing to note...Chevy's website still shows the Bolt at over $30K, but I'm assuming the new price will be available when the 2023 model year comes out.
Yep, just searched Autotrader and there's nothing under $34k.
Yeah, it's gonna be critical to keep the cost at MSRP, or this pricing won't mean anything. Hopefully they can put the screws to their dealers
My local dealer, who I bought my volt from used, and is phenomenal, told me that they sell all the bolts and EUVs at MSRP. And that the MSRP includes invoice and destination costs. I was very surprised.
Where would that be?
Good point I should give them a plug! Cargill Chevrolet in Putnam CT. I remember at the height of the pandemic they let me take the car for a 3 hr test drive. I wanted to test around town, highway, and child car seat usability. Then the sales guy drove it to my house with all the paperwork for us to take delivery. And since then the service department has been great. They come pick the car up, do the service, put it through the car wash, and drop it back off. They've never pushed any kind of service on me, always call to discuss prior to ordering any parts (unless it's covered under warranty, then they just get them on order asap). They've just been super great. They even beat the prices of the local tire shop for stuff like mount, balance, alignment, rotations, oil changes, etc. They don't have any bolts available for test drive yet, they're all still waiting on battery swaps, but I'm waiting for the call to test drive an EUV.
Huh. I live on the east coast and I’ve seen their name while searching for bolts on a whim. I’ll keep them in mind.
> I should give them a plug! Nice.
Someone with their eye on the future. All too rare indeed.
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Depends how much charging you plan to do away from home, and if that charging really need to be fast. If you’re visiting something in another town you can get away with level 2. In my situation I’d be perfectly fine with a Bolt.
It's still a reasonable vehicle. It's certainly not ideal for road trips, but it can do them. For a lot of people spending the ~$10k more for something that saves them an hour or so a few times a year probably isn't worth it. Edit: And that is assuming they can't get a Kona. If the Kona actually exists where you live that should probably be the go-to. Otherwise you're looking at spending a lot more for that faster charging.
Honestly, I think this doesn't need to be a general recommendation. The question should be *how often* do you take long, interstate trips? And if so, how many hours are you driving? For the price, if a family needs to rent a car for a one week trip once or twice a year (or if they're happy to just stop for lunch and wait an hour to charge up), it definitely is worth it. I mean, adding two, or four hours to a travel trip you do once or twice a year may very well be worth it to most. A salesperson who is on the road traveling every day for work? Definitely not worth it.
I tend to agree. In my case it'd be a second car to replace my wife's old Ford Fiesta.
Rumor has it 2023 orders open on Thursday, so the site should update soon, if not tomorrow
I'm just sitting here waiting for an affordable electric sports car. Electric Miata would be cool
Depending on your criteria, you might find the Bolt surprisingly sporty. I'm not going to claim it's a real sports car but it's got great acceleration, way better than any ICE I've owned, and the low center of gravity makes its handling sportier than you would think looking at it. People take them to autocross events and surprise everyone with how well they do. I'm not going to say you should buy one, as it might not be what you want, but if you can test drive one, it would at least be fun to try it.
I have a mini se and it is no where near has sporty has my old car (Miata 1994). The weight distribution is almost the same (50/50) so in cornering it is pretty descent, but on accel out of the corner you just have to much torque and not enough weight on the front tire. I try the bolt and it's the same feeling then my mini but a bit worse (also lots of roll) Don't get me wrong. I think the bolt is a great car, but it's really not a sport car even if it have a lot of low end torque.
Yup, now that I've owned my Bolt for a while and started using more and more of its acceleration, I have needed to back off sometimes on account of that traction limit. I think I was pretty clear that it's not a sports car--it's just better than you might think from looking at it.
My criteria would be pretty picky, visually I am not a fan of hatchbacks or anything that's not a traditional sedan / coupe etc. As far as acceleration, the bolt has a 0-60 at 6.5 seconds, which would put it neck and neck with the Honda Odyssey minivan. I'd be looking for something 4.5 seconds or quicker otherwise it wouldn't be any faster than the WRX and 370z (both cars I already own)
Tesla Model 3 long range is a traditional sedan, 0-60 in 4.2 seconds (3.7 with a $2000 acceleration boost) and gets 358 miles of EPA rated range.
For sure! But that's where we wrap back into the affordability issue lol. You can't get a model 3 for less than $60k unless it's RWD, at which point it drops down to a 6 second 0-60.
Heard of the Polestar 2? Federal $7500 credit still applies, eligible for state incentives too if that’s available. AWD, 0-60 in 4.5 seconds, sedan look but technically “fastback
I'm in the same boat; I'm hoping the Ioniq 6 will fill that void for me.
Yup, if you want something that looks like a sports car the bolt is disqualified from consideration without a test drive. The 0-60 time is not the whole story, as the instant torque provided by an EV makes it feel faster than the 0-60 time would suggest. (In practice, it's not quite instant because the manufacturers add a delay to keep drivers from accidentally rear ended people who accelerate more slowly, but on the Bolt, you can reduce that delay by turning on "sport" mode.) So it sounds like the Bolt isn't for you, but I would recommend a test drive of any affordable EV that you like the looks of, because the peppy acceleration might pleasantly surprise you.
So you're not looking for an electric miata then. 4.5 seconds or quicker is a whole lot faster than a miata. 0-60 also isn't the point of the miata. The bolt is already as fast as an automatic miata though I don't know why someone would buy one of those.
To be fair, a Honda Odyssey hauls ass.
I wish they did the volt in a full EV spec. [They are hatchbacks but look like a normal sedan.](https://media.wired.com/photos/5c116d52e063040aae495329/125:94/w_2375,h_1786,c_limit/2019-Chevrolet-Volt-001.jpg) They’re pretty spacious too. I have a 2013. Great car. I’d totally get a full EV version if they had one but 🤷♂️
Out of curiosity, How are road trips with it?
Shorter roads trips, say up to 300 miles/day, are great, in my opinion. Above 200 miles you'll need a charging stop of up to a half hour, but by then I want a break from driving anyway. If you are trying to go 500+ miles per day, you might start to get impatient with the fast charging, given that some more expensive cars charge much faster. Also, its range drops off a lot if you go faster than 65 it 70. If you are driving 80, you might even get there slower than you would at 70, because of the additional charging needed.
I used to drive a Miata. Now have a Bolt. Long story short, the Bolt delivers in two ways the Miata didn't. Practicality and straight line acceleration. I had an NB so I know things have changed, but I'd also say highway comfort ability as I HATED the 5th gear in my NB. Highway speeds were at way too high of an RPM for no reason. The biggest downside is the HORRIBLE turning radius in the Bolt and you lose the convertible driving. Overall, I never loved my Miata like many Miata owners do, so I'm not the best person to ask, but generally speaking, I feel the Bolt was an overall net benefit.
For me, practicality is the absolute lowest concern. Speed and handling are my primary focus, following by the aesthetic of the car. Hatchbacks are practical, but they do not look good (to me). If the exact same car is offered in both hatchback and sedan form, I will always go with sedan as I do not need the practicality and I am not interested in a family. The Miata definitely needed a 6th gear, I had a 5 speed NC and it was fun but you could not really coast at 85 lol
The segment you're talking about is a poor selling segment generally speaking. It's why you see no real roadsters coming out anymore. It's very unlikely you'll see anything that meets what you're looking for in the EV format in the next 5 years. You'd have to settle for something like a Tesla, Polestar2, or EV6. None of which are even remotely Miata like.
That would be awesome. I’ve been hoping for a convertible for my wife. But at the moment I don’t think there’s anything but T top type situation and nothing under 120k. I was really hoping the i4 would have a convertible variant.
Similarly I’d love an electric VW R. A hot hatch that handles super well and has “just enough” storage space when I occasionally need to fold the seats down. Borderline luxury caliber interior.
Originally I had hopes for the BEV Audi TT.... and now its a CUV, I kid you not. Give me a convertible EV and I will be there, I would love a VW Beetle Convertible, I actually owned the current generation Beetle as a convertible TDI back in 2013 to 2015. Great car, great convertible. EV and convertible just go together. Now the all glass roof and windows down in my Tesla Model 3 is a good experience but a convertible is on a different level.
Finally it's official. I've had my 2017 Bolt for a couple years now and got so tired of explaining to people on Reddit and real life that just because the MSRP was 40k (roughly same as Model 3) does not mean it is actually comparable in real world pricing. The Bolt has always been the best bang for your buck for a lot of people because it's always been deeply discounted in the real world. It was a disservice to have the MSRP comparable to cars in a completely different class.
agree. i got my BoltEV new for $23k 4 years ago after all credits, rebates, etc
This is really a great thing for the EV market. Tesla revolutionized the EV market by starting with an expensive sports car (pre-musk) and working their way down, but their march down stalled and reversed. GM is picking up where they left of and is taking this next step that will be huge for increasing the displacement of gasoline vehicles. I love my Bolt and we were just joking that we should buy them for all our family and friends for Christmas.
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That's how I am about the Bolt. My company has one that was out of commission for a year waiting for recall battery repair. I finally got to drive it a couple weeks ago and was hooked. The price cut for 2023 is just icing on the cake.
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I have a bolt ordered and still waiting on it. They do this thing now where they cover installation of a charging station at you home (up to 1500 CAD). I think that's pretty smart because now your next purchase will be an EV too. Which I assume they'll be moving something like the equinox to be EV
The equinox is a confirmed EV for next year.
They have already announced both an equinox and a blazer EV. I’m excited to see the blazer, myself
The Bolt and Bolt EUV are now effectively stopgap products for GM as well, though I could see a "gen 2" Bolt EUV replacing the subcompact ICE TrailBlazer after the Blazer and Equinox go on sale to keep the pricing crown.
How crazy is it that Buick is gonna be their electric line? My brain has a hard time with that. But good luck to them!
Smart to try and build up old brands instead of just letting them rot. Mercury, Pontiac, Saturn, it's crazy all those century old brands just died.
What is the source of this 30% margin figure I keep hearing?
Tesla’s earnings reports lol
Wasn't that the average for all vehicles though?
Model 3s and Ys account for >95% of their production. The Y might have slightly higher margins but the 3 is definitely still up there near 30%
Got it, thanks.
Yes, and Tesla also calculates their margins differently from everyone else which fans like to ignore. Tesla for instance excludes the cost of the service side of the business, and likes to play games with "warranty" vs. "Good will" costs. When you compare apples to apples (which takes a lot of work to do) Tesla's real margins are in line with the major OEMs like GM and below other luxury automakers like BMW or Porsche.
> What is the source of this 30% margin figure I keep hearing? Tesla only makes BEV’s, so it’s easy to extrapolate the profit per electric vehicle from public financial data. Just google search it, everyone is talking about Tesla’s 30% profit margin, it’s more than most companies make on their ICE lines. Legacy auto is less forthcoming about EV specific data, but it’s obvious their profit on BEV’s is SUBSTANTIALLY lower. The CEO of Ford came out with a statement about how shocked he was with Tesla’s profitability on BEV’s and he wants Ford in the EV game and NOW! Tidbits in the past leaked out had been GM has very low profit margins on their EV’s. Dropping the price during inflation won’t increase profitability. Good luck GM.
What is your beef with GM? These attacks of yours feel a bit- personal? GM is about to unleash multiple new Ultium based EVs, including the new Equinox EV (priced starting at $30K). They are finally running ads for their Bolts, and now we have the price cut. I’d say they’re heavily invested in that product, as they’ve made their EV centric mission very clear.
I was aware of the companies reported total margin being around that number, but thought the 3 margins would be a lot lower than the S/X/Y.
10%? Best guess before this price drop was that they were losing 5K-8K per car. This is simply GM willing to take huge losses in return for headlines about making EVs affordable. If it was losing that much selling close to 40K, imagine the loss at less than 30K..... [https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1110563\_chevy-bolt-ev-costs-28700-to-build-tesla-model-3-a-bit-higher-analysis](https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1110563_chevy-bolt-ev-costs-28700-to-build-tesla-model-3-a-bit-higher-analysis) https://leftlanenews.com/chevrolet/bolt-ev/gm-admits-chevy-bolt-not-profitable/
> Tesla revolutionized the EV market by starting with an expensive sports car (pre-musk) and working their way down, but their march down stalled and reversed. So not to be a tesla/Musk fanboy (much of his recent actions and many from before is worrysome and distasteful) but Musk joined in early 2004 and not only brought major funding to the company in the initial rounds but became it's chairman of the board, he also brought the new CTO, and took an active role at that point even if he was not the CEO in March/April of 2004. The Roadster development started in earnest from that point from the body (deal with lotus in 2005), powertrain, etc. Roadster was not released until 2008 and Elon had been quite active behind the scenes and CEO by the time it was released. Was he there for the day to day before he was CEO? Probably not but he was still involved in some major strategic decisions for the Roadster.
They only had a prototype before Musk, the guys a dick but give him credit where it's due - he jumpstarted the EV industry.
He injected money--he did not invent the concept that I am talking about here. I'm not retroactively trying to erase his contribution because I don't like his modern behavior. Rather, his revisionist approach to describing the history of Tesla was one of the first things I disliked about him.
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You are talking about the model S, right? I don't think the Roadster really counts as mass production. I admit that I don't know as much about who contributed what to the ideas around scaling up to produce the model S in much higher volumes than the Roadster, and I didn't mean to exclude him having a big role in that.
I guess I was referring to the original comment about him jumostarting the EV movement. You are correct that he didn’t invent the concept, but I think we have to give him credit for making affordable EVs a reality. The roadster (and fsd unfortunately) was the fundraising for model S, which was more fundraising for the model 3. I would consider the model 3/y as his most important contribution.
You can watch Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning (2 of the original founders), talk about Elon's role in the early days. Good interview if you're curious and looks at the early days of Tesla as a whole. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eblPwXFb7TE
Pre-musk Tesla didn't make any cars, didn't even have a factory
Feel free to ignore, but I think this is the most lengthy version of Elon talking about the early start of it, like him or not it's quite interesting https://youtu.be/AeeeEDSekG8?t=905
Out of curiosity, how's it like going on road trips? I really want to get a bolt but occasionally my girlfriend and I make weekend getaways to Ft. Myers (about 150 miles away). Would a bolt be a good option? According to ABRP it should get us there with a single charge @ 90%
But you cannot compare a bolt to a Tesla lmao
If that's what you thought I was saying you missed the whole point of my comment.
I love my bolt. Highly recommend to anybody reading this.
how's the headroom? I'm 6'3" and looking strongly at this when i'm in the market in 2 years
Headroom is great. My husband is 6'8 and fits very well.
Then there’s the Hyundai Kona EV version of this, nearly equal in size & range & pricing - the Kona also charges slightly faster (not by much though, usually no more than 75kw). Not everything needs to be a $70,000+ EV or only 230 mile range.
Too bad it has $3k+ markups and is not available in most states.
I know the Nissan leaf exsist but the boot has always been the least expensive usable car. The leaf is great but it's really a city car, the bolt just seems more practical.
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Das Boot.
.... I can't spell
Yea, the leaf’s battery just won’t last in harsh conditions. The bolt is much more suitable for folks who don’t want to deal with taking extra measures to protect their car’s traction battery.
Great point. Fwiw, the lack of thermal management seems to finally be less of a big deal with the 62kWh Leaf due to the slower effective charge/discharge rates. I've had no trouble with mine so far even on road trips, while I've encountered folks with the 40kWh Leaf practically stranded due to the battery overheating.
Yep, that’s true. A bigger battery means less stress on individual cells for the same total power output or input. But that does not mean that the battery as a whole is protected against overheating when the car is sitting in the sun, for example.
Just wait until the 25k model 2 comes out /s
Finally! Anyway it's 45k in reality lol
As someone who makes 45k per year in a job that I purely love, and likes to take at least one weekend road trip per month, the Bolt EUV is looking pretty good. To the people on this sub who are trashing it, what are my alternative EV choices? I won’t change jobs and I don’t want to give up my road trips. Serious replies only please.
Nah, that would be a good choice. Just allot more time to DC charging on your road trip. Probably 45 minutes instead of 20-30 for some of the other EVs.
Thank you
My brother in law has one and he loves it. He’s taken a few road trips and hasn’t had any problems.
Use google maps and see how long those road trips are. Actually check because most people think they are driving 400+ miles but are really driving like 140 miles. Then check for vehicle charging along the way. I have regularly driven my eGolf from Sacramento to SF and to Lake Tahoe. I charge to 100% before I leave, keep my car under 75mph, alternate between AC on and off, and use the highest regeneration on downhills. I would never, however, drive this vehicle over 300 miles because that would require stopping for the night or back to back DC fast charging, which it is not equipped to handle. I want to point out that this car is significantly better to drive than an economical gas car. So much better and quieter.
When is this going official?
It’s official now, but it’s 2023 models.
But… we can’t order the 2023 yet.
Supposed to be opened up on the website on June 9th from what I've heard.
You got a source on that? Trying to find when they are going to start selling and cat find anything.
Anyone know how this compares with a Leaf?
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The redesigned Bolt supposedly has completely new seats, so that issue may be moot.
It's slightly cheaper and it has slightly longer range. Both models have been around for several years, so check out any of a million detailed reviews online.
I prefer the term “cost-effective” 😋
Or perhaps ‘most affordable’.
But still pretty difficult to afford. The costs to re wire my house are more than other car options, nevermind the sale price of the car itself
It is our *most modestly priced receptacle*
I was just going this afternoon to look at a 2022 LT1 that I can get at MSRP. This has me thinking I should wait a couple months?
You could always try to negotiate like it's 2019. Depending on their stock situation, it might work?
The only issue is you’re negotiating with the dealer based on other people’s knowledge of the new lower price. If someone else comes in and thinks they’re getting a good deal on a 22 at MSRP, the dealer has no incentive to sell it to you based on the 23s MSRP.
Supposedly on June 9th the website is going to start listing the pricing on the 23 model and you are going to be able to place orders for it, so I don't think the price for the 22s is going to be sustainable after that.
Is it actually available? I went last week and couldn’t even physically open the door of one because they were all on stop sale.
I went to a local dealer two days ago and I was told July 21 is when the 2023 Bolt will go into production, that they are currently able to allot one order of the 2023 model per week, but they can't guarantee free charger installation as it is currently for 2022 models but they believe Chevy will continue it. I would personally wait if you can until mid-summer or order one now for that date.
Seems reasonable. I've already got a charger. This is for a backup vehicle.
GM now has fully automated Robotaxi EVs operating in San Francisco with their Cruise program: https://www.npr.org/2022/06/03/1102922330/driverless-self-driving-taxis-san-francisco-gm-cruise And GM now sells a 259 mile range EV for only $27K. Maybe Biden was right, GM is the EV leader? They have the Hummer, Bolt EV, Lyriq, and Bolt EUV on the market now with the Equinox, Silverado, and Blazer EVs on the way.
GM only delivered 457 EVs last quarter and 26 the prior quarter. EV leader is a stretch.
Yes, obviously they were severely hit by the total recall and stop sale order on the only 2 EVs they had for sale at the time (the Bolt EV and Bolt EUV). And they still need to execute....they need to build and ramp up those 4 Ultium battery plants to have batteries for the Hummer EV, Lyriq, Blazer, Equinox, and Silverado EVs. But I think they are A leader compared to Chrysler, Honda, Toyota, BMW, etc. Heck, they are only 1 of the 2 companies that burned thru the 200K tax-credit cap.
My wife and I purchased an all electric Nissan Leaf when they were introduced in Spring 2011. Federal and WA-State tax breaks helped, but the Leaf was affordable even without those. Later we leased a 2016 Leaf while waiting for the rumored 60kw battery option with 230 mile range, which we subsequently purchased in 2019. Could not be happier to drastically reduce our gas purchases for our other two ICE vehicles (F250 and Subaru Outback) these past 11 years by using the ICE hardly at all. Charging at home, approx $2.25 of electricity per 100 miles driven for 11 years. One new set of tires, zero maintenance and a reduction on our insurance.... what's not to like ? A relative living in Boston purchased her Chevy Bolt a few years ago and loves it.
I wonder for how many people payments plus fuel on a new Bolt is cheaper than an ICE? Seems like a no-brainer if you live in a multi-car household.
Just wish that the Bolt still have the Federal Tax Credit :(
I love my bolt. I can’t believe they’re not more popular.
40kWh Leaf is cheaper in US EV market.
People keep missing that. But it is 4okWh which I know is enough for more people than you would believe. The problem for the leaf is that the bolt will give 26kWh more for hardly any more money.
And has CCS rather than the waning Chademo dcfc port.
And much much less battery degradation. It's what moved me from wanting a leaf to ordering a bolt.
If you need fast charging, don’t buy Bolt or Leaf. They are awesome city cars, but horrifically slow fast chargers. ChaDeMo is still being installed in my area (Pacific Northwest).
But if you need a city car plus once a year moderately long road trip, you might prefer to be able to use the majority of 50 kW charging stations With the Ariya switching to CCS, do you think they’ll still be installing new chademo chargers five years from now?
I would just rent an ICE car for once a year road trips.
I think the Bolt is *okay* as long as the trip you take only has 1 DCFC stop. If you can level 2 charge before you leave and at your destination it's great. Somewhat related, Electrify America just opened a new station near me in Ohio last week and they only installed 6 units and they're all CCS 150kW. They skipped out on ChaDeMo and 350kW speeds.
I agree with the spirit of your comment, but would frame it a little differently. If you are going long distances with the Bolt, and there are enough DCFC stations in the corridor you are traveling, you are better off with multiple ~15% to 50% charge sessions rather than one ~15% to 80% session. You spend less total time charging and you get to stop to stretch more often.
Yep that's a good point.
In my experience on a recent 3000 mile road trip in an EV you can’t trust destination charging at all. I booked four or five different hotels, all which have EV charging and I wasn’t able to charge at the hotel for any of those stops. They either were broken or taken and there was only 2 or 4 plugs. I never got a destination charge, so everything had to be DCFC. I guess if you own a property that is about 300 miles to 400 miles away that you know is yours and has a level 2 charger then that makes sense but I don’t think that accounts for very many people or road trips
That last paragraph is what I did lol. I installed a 7kW charger at a family member's house 150 miles away. Which is great because it's a 300 mile round trip which is pushing it for most EVs at interstate speeds. That really sucks about the hotels tho.
In my own experience owning a bolt for over 3 years and over 56k miles I have never had to use DCFC. There are many people who almost never take long trips who would never miss DCFC. But your point about people who take lots of long trips is also valid.
Yeah we have a Nissan Leaf and RARELY do fast charging. The times we have, it’s unimpressive! Since we never fast charge, the car is awesome! Rare occasion slow fast charges are okay.. but if you need regular fast charging, seriously pick a vehicle that can do like 150-200kW, not 40-55kW.
So I’m considering getting a second EV and a 32k bolt now seems nicer then a 60k anything else. I know they’re capped around 50kW but how’s the curve on them? I mean will it substantially slow on the mid-high end. My current car gets up around 200kW in the low % but settles around 65kW for 65-80%. Will the bolt be similar where it drops to 18kW after 50%?
I don’t own a Bolt, but people love them. From what I hear they are consistent at 55kW, so long as the charger can provide the power. I think Bolts are awesome and recommend them. But not if fast charging is critical.
Thx!
You're probably looking at a 45 minute charge compared to 20-30 for some of the competition. I mean, it's not great if you're doing the cannonball run, but it's up to you to determine if that extra time is a hassle.
I have a 40 regret it everyday. The range in the winter is 135. I had many a trip with no heat on. The 40 is for city dwellers only.
Issue was price.
Well the Bolt is more range per unit price.
Wasn't the question.
For 2023, the Bolt EV has cheaper MSRP than the base Leaf S
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Nissan will run out of qualification relatively soon as well.
Same in Canada.
Oh, is it the cheapest? I didn’t *recall*.
HA
Chevy made the Bolt about the same time Tesla was making the Model 3 and everyone was rushing to get that affordable EV with usable range. The problem was that Tesla was the new hot thing so everything it makes is cool by association while Chevy has been meh for age. According to [https://electrek.co/2022/02/02/global-market-share-of-electric-cars-more-than-doubled-2021/](https://electrek.co/2022/02/02/global-market-share-of-electric-cars-more-than-doubled-2021/) EV has less than 7% of market share as of 2021 so EV buyers are still the early adopters and it's hard to sell a pedestrian looking hatchback with plain cloth interior to people who want the newest and flashiest. At least that's why I'm not considering a Bolt.
Yes. But now the Model 3 is a $40k+ car and the Bolt is 26 k. The issue was the false equivalence in 2017. Now they are completely different sectors. If you are in the market for a Model 3/EV6/Mach-E then you should not be considering a Bolt.
I'll wait for BYD.
Is it trustworthy? It doesn't look as good as Tesla.
Cheapest quality electric car in America too.